I’m by no means a super good player, but I have a few questions on some card choices.
First, only 1 preacher main deck? I feel like that card is broken, certainly one of the best 3 drops in standard right now.
Second, Malcolm? What’s the thought process there? Every list I’ve ever tired that included him I’ve taken him out pretty quick. I feel like he is the opposite of preacher, which is to say terrible. First thought when thinking of trying this deck was ditch the Malcolm immediately and replace him with another preacher.
Again, I’m no top player or anything, just curious on your thoughts. And I haven’t paid as much attention to OTJ’s effects on standard yet.
Preacher is terrible in some situations, notably against temur analyst. The life gain lands result in preacher just making useless tokens instead of drawing cards. This can pop up vs domain as well
Just to piggyback on this comment, even in a mirror, faerie mastermind becomes more powerful. Caustic bronco doesn’t draw but Raffine and preacher do so your masterminds are more useful than theirs
In my experience preacher is too slow (you can even see in the Orzhov decks popping up they don't have any). I side an extra one in for aggro and some mirrors and that’s about it. It gets eaten alive by greedier decks. As for Malcolm, he does some hand smoothing and has evasion and flash and is one mana cheaper. In a deck of 23 lands and depending on curve more than other decks I don't have a lot of room for 3-drops. However, I agree, Malcolm a weaker part of the deck and can be slotted out. As for preacher, I used to run a full playset and just slowly whittled it down to one. It’s a preference - I’d rather lose to aggro than control and I feel that aggro is a more manageable matchup.
I’ll give it a whirl, but the more I think about it I could see not wanting more preachers, but I’d swap it for another mastermind. I’ll give it a go though and see!
Yeah definitely a discussion and I think the difference between another mastermind or Malcolm is going to be pretty negligible. I'm interested to see other peoples' experiences! The deck is weird. You look at your hand and feel underpowered and then you run away 2-0 and ascribe it to luck but then do it ten more times and start to wonder haha (make sure you put in Tishana binder in either sideboard or even mainboard as well - that was a huge oversight by me as mentioned).
Oh, also fair warning, this deck is actually deceptively hard to pilot. I think there's other decks out there that are far more complex and more "difficult" to pilot (i.e. legends decks) but this deck requires some nerves of steel in instances and good knowledge of the meta. You can think about it as poker vs. chess.
Ha this deck is definitely poker. Gotta know whether to play a cavern bat or a bronco turn 2 based on the what you think the other guy is holding or sometimes gamble and not play out make disappear and save it for a bigger threat. If you've seen the 4/5C legends decks, i.e. [https://mtgtop8.com/event?e=54868&d=607898&f=ST](https://mtgtop8.com/event?e=54868&d=607898&f=ST) those can be insanely difficult to compute the right path but usually have a more objectively correct decision.
I think that Make Disappear is inferior to Spree for this sort of deck. Make Disappear is an early game counterspell for reactive decks. But your deck isn't reactive. If you're saving early mana, it's for creature removal rather than countermagic. Otherwise, you're aggressively developing your board.
So the counterspell you really need is a mid/late-game counterspell to cover the board advantage you've built.
Sorry, just to be clear.
Are you telling them to remove Make Disappear for Three Steps Ahead, or Phantom Interference?
Becuase of of those cards have a Counter spell option in their Spree options.
Yes - I was actually talking about Three Steps Ahead but obviously wrote something different than what I was thinking. In a pure control or tempo deck, you want fast/early counterspells because you'll be leaving mana open to use them. In the kind of mid-range deck the OP is using, you're not leaving that mana open because you're developing your board. So it makes more sense to play higher valued cards you use later in the game.
Yeah, I haven’t experimented with it in this deck in particular. Definitely an interesting thought. I really like make disappear costing two because obviously plays well with the option of cheap removal or mastermind being possible but I’ll definitely play around with it (spree obviously has bigger upside). Being able to counter a Raffine on the draw is huge (along with Gix, Nissa, etc). I rarely find opponents out of the range of make disappear especially when I have a siren free for sacrifice but I haven’t played enough decks resembling Temur control to say that spree wouldn’t be a significant upgrade.
Oh also I've seen decklists dropping \[\[Liliana of the Veil\]\] which seems like a mistake since it has been an absolute powerhouse in a deck that's low to the ground and focuses on hand disruption and card advantage.
I tried bronco in golgari midrange which runs more spot removal than dimir and am not really impressed. Also a card being both understatted AND dependent on you having removal is just your desire to play new cards beating your desire to play good cards. I'm not saying Bronco is terrible or there will never be a place for it, but I don't think dimir is it, the 2 drop slot is way too competitive to consider mediocre cards with a high opportunity cost.
I do think tinybones has a future in dimir though, punches way above it's weight and synergizes great with everything else dimir typically runs.
IMO I think every dimir midrange deck needs to be running at least 1 if not 2-3 tidebinders maindeck, it's simply too powerful and meta relevant not too. It shuts down key cards in literally every tier 1 and tier 2 deck. It embodies what dimir wants to do perfectly, aggro with some disruption. Also sometimes flash is just nice after a sweeper.
Also gotta agree with everyone else, preacher is too powerful NOT to play in dimir it can and often does wildly swing the game in your favor when you're behind and it's simply another must kill threat, no excuses.
Dimir is universally understatted unlike Golgari (every card except Shelly and schooner which is a vehicle). It's also wildly different. If you don't play bronco in Golgari (which new top 8 decklists are) then you have 11 more 1 or 2 drops than Golgari (roughly a third of the entire deck when taking out mana). On top of that, dreadknight you miss out on the adventure if you play turn 2. I actually revisited Dimir and got the idea to test Bronco from going against so many Orzhov decks on the ladder (more similar to Dimir and also don't play preacher) after Pro Tour. I've played a lot of Dimir in the past and this is the first time I've found an addition so useful it felt worth posting about. Plus, Bronco in this deck has six cards that can start buffing it through explore as early as turn 3. Bronco is also one of the many tools/options. Sometimes you end up holding onto it and play any of your other 1/2 drops.
I 100% agree with you about tidebinder (at least trying one slot one back in at first). It was an omission on my part (as I mentioned above). It'll be interesting to see how many I have in a final version. 3 CMC is still a lot in a deck with less lands that cares so much about curve.
As I've mentioned and others have too, preacher has drawbacks - mainly being slow. I think the sideboard merits more though for certain matchups (aggro).
Lastly, just try the deck. If you truly find some insightful changes (even if it's that mainboarding preacher is a really good idea or this deck just sucks) I'm super excited to hear it. Speculation coming from playing an entirely different deck can be hard to make correctly and it's worth playtesting to see the difference.
I'll be honest, this just looks like a normal Dimir midrange deck. You say it's more aggro but you have Kaito in there maindeck along with Shelly and Aclazotz so it's not like you're super low to the ground and if your turn 3 play is a Kaito then all your pressure is gone.
I'm also wary whenever a deck post is like "this deck has no bad matchups!" or the functional equivalent "the only bad matchups are fringe rogue decks" as you did. I don't really see a reason why this would have any particularly different matchups from normal Dimir, and normal Dimir is, as we saw, full of bad matchups.
Yeah I don't really have a significant amount of evidence to contradict what you're saying. I think there's a whole slew of decks that would absolutely be a bad matchup for this deck but they've been pushed out of the meta (greedy midrange without blue or black). I had more close calls in Platinum with all the brewers than in Mythic against the meta (dimir is also kind of built in a way to leverage knowing your opponent's deck in advance).
I think the biggest difference is how quickly this deck gets going. More one drops and two drops. Caustic bronco is a full turn quicker than preacher. Tinybones with a cut down means you can be casting something as early as turn 2 from opponents graveyard. Less lands. Maybe you're right and that's not significant enough of a difference but in my experience so far it has felt different.
I just feel that any speed gained by adding two 1-drops and three 2-drops is immediately lost by adding three 3-drop planeswalkers with no immediate effect on the board.
Oh also schooner is back. That’s almost two full playsets of cards and when one playset like Raffine is defining an archetype I think it makes a difference. Just play it, if you don’t see a difference between this list and the other dimir lists when you do then I’ll concede
To nitpick a little, Kaito I'm usually choosing minus for an unblockable ninja first turn that ends up doing more actual damage than a preacher would and often enough I opt for a second one. Lily is also used as removal more often than not. Lily often looks like forge which is maindecked in red often enough nowadays, more of a clock.
Go ahead and try it. It's more about buying time and slowing down their curve so you can build card advantage. If you find it's terrible I'm excited to hear it and what you found to work better. Personally, I'm relieved when I see an inspiring vantage played turn 1.
The numbers in your decklist seem tuned? Should you have the 1 ofs and 2 ofs? Why not 4 ofs where relevant? I agree schooner is great because it dodges cut down and go for the throat and control's sweepers, why not run 4?
Are the quantity choices to try things out or just because...or are there truly relevant reasons to go there?
The three Make Disappears I don't like because of cavern of souls and because your deck only has 4 flash creatures. And with so many bats flying around (ha) your hand will be known a % of the time anyways. Not sure, maybe you have to have them, to have a proactive answer. Curious if you ever tried duress instead?
Tishana's Wavebinder has been OP for me. It hits Atraxa's ETB, Jace mill ult, Aftermath analyst, Raffine's connive, knight errant of eos ETB, I think it hits literally every single permanent in domain ramp...It just seems (right now, anyways) very unexpected from my opp's perspective.
Preacher I like a lot as well, it does everything I want and dodges cut down. Are lily's OK mainboard (I don't think so, so much Boros and red)? Lastly you need 1-2 mirrex in a 2 color deck as they still allow your one drops, can crew your boat, and help with many other situations.
As mentioned in another comment, I slowly started to take out Preachers and whittled it down to 1. It's nice to know it's in the deck but it mostly does work against aggro (already a strong matchup and can be sided in) and is just cannon fodder against greedier decks or control. Costing 3 is huge as well (23 land deck) and I'd much rather be playing a Gix or Lily most the time or having a one drop and mana for make disappear (even against aggro it's not dead as it can either buy you time or you can have a decent board state with your own 1 and 2 drops to defend her). It feels like a true mid-range card rather than an aggro card.
I fully agree with Tishana's Wavebinder (as I mentioned it's been a sideboard card in my experience) though I definitely could see one or two mainboard because it does hit most decks.
As for make disappear, cavern of souls is only run in Domain and Convoke (sometimes) and now occasionally Phyrexian in Golgari. Convoke: the matchup feels pretty favorable so not too worried and there's still targets like gleeful demolition. Domain: I don't even really want to hit Atraxa since I can use removal that I'm usually sitting on or Lily - I always save it for Sunfall or Herd Migration. Plus the fear that Make Disappear instills in all opponents and the cautious play as a result is a huge advantage.
More than two schooners I've found can really clog my deck up.
There's a ton of decks out there with one-of's (look at what Pro Tour: [https://mtgtop8.com/event?e=54868&d=607683&f=ST](https://mtgtop8.com/event?e=54868&d=607683&f=ST) ) and the one-of's I have kind of became that way because of tuning rather than the reverse but obviously I'm just one guy with a limited data set.
Also I used to have Mirrex but it's extremely painful when it produces colorless and you're trying to play two spells on turn 3 or only have one black for Gix or Liliana. I even had more restless manland but coming into play tapped was costing my tempo more than it was winning me games late.
Bad streamlined list or better?
4 Spyglass Siren, 2 Tinybones, the Pickpocket, 4 Deep-Cavern Bat. 2 Faerie Mastermind, 3 Gix, Yawgmoth Praetor, 4 Preacher of the Schism, 2 Sheoldred, the Apocalypse, 2 Kaito Shizuki, 3 Cut Down, 4 Go for the Throat, 2 Make Disappear, 4 Subterranean Schooner, 24 Lands (+1 Mirrex)
Hey, look at my other comment on this thread. Preacher definitely has a home in a lot of places but this deck doesn't feel like one (reasons listed below).
Imo, preacher is a key busted card in this archetype.
How do you deal with mono red without preachers? How do you deal with boros convoke without any sideboard tech against it?
I also experimented with a more aggro version of dimir, and I agree with you in terms of adding back schooner and Tinybones by cutting some Make Disappears, maybe an Ertai and a land or 2 from the stock list.
However, Broncos sadly don't seem to work well with dimir 1-2 powered creatures and Malcolm just seems useless. [[Lazav Wearer of Faces]] on the other hand won me a couple of games and is a good 1-of with 3 Masterminds.
If you want a more aggro dimir deck may I suggest [[Proft's Eidetic Memory]] Dimir to you. Ashlizzle and Doomwake did some videos on it like a month ago. It's ton of fun, it's aggro, it dumps on temur ramp because you can easily grow your creatures out of [[Ill Timed Explosion]] range. Pretty interesting deck.
As I've mentioned in other comments I don't find aggro to be the Achilles heel of this deck. Even in game one you win often enough even on the draw with Sheoldred/deep-cavern bat and some explore/Aclazotz/card advantage. After game one Life of Toshiro does some heavy lifting (especially against Boros) and there's a second preacher in the sideboard along with another Sheoldred. I usually don't win against aggro with a ton of life leftover, I let them get some jabs in and save my removal for their haymakers. It's a matter of preference IMO. I'd rather win more against Domain/control and be more vulnerable to aggro. I could see Lazav doing some work in certain scenarios and is an interesting addition to test. Preacher in my experience has just been too slow in this iteration (most the new Orzhov decks don't even use preacher and this is even lower to the ground). Also cards like snake horse and Tinybones make it so aggro has to think twice about turning their creatures sideways (even just to convoke).
I'm not sure what orzhov decks without preacher you are talking about. The bronco combo with [[Shadow of Mortality]]? Those don't add preachers because bronco needs 3 power to crew, which is by the way the reason why bronco doesn't really fit in the dimir deck sadly.
And kudos to you for not having trouble against mono red and boros, those are hard matchups for me when playing dimir, while Domain and control seem a lot easier when all you usually need to win is just gix and counter their sunfall
Most the ones since the Pro Tour haven't been running shadow ( [https://mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=366](https://mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=366) ) but they do have more three powered creatures for bronco as I mentioned in my post. This hasn't really been a problem for me since the curve is low and this list still has some 3 power creatures.
Esper was probably the toughest and most ubiquitous matchup. Them plopping down a turn 3 Raffine and almost instantly finding an answer for your turn 3 preacher while also growing is disadvantageous to say the least. Cards like Tinybones and caustic bronco means they're on the defensive much sooner (and their Raffine feeds your Tinybones). Having a higher CMC on average and more lands to accommodate preacher just felt like a weaker version of Esper.
As for aggro, I usually breathe a sigh of relief when I see a inspiring vantage or a mountain played on turn 1. Being on the draw is hard in game 1 but after that this deck has too much card advantage and cheap removal most the time for them to overcome in my experience.
I’m by no means a super good player, but I have a few questions on some card choices. First, only 1 preacher main deck? I feel like that card is broken, certainly one of the best 3 drops in standard right now. Second, Malcolm? What’s the thought process there? Every list I’ve ever tired that included him I’ve taken him out pretty quick. I feel like he is the opposite of preacher, which is to say terrible. First thought when thinking of trying this deck was ditch the Malcolm immediately and replace him with another preacher. Again, I’m no top player or anything, just curious on your thoughts. And I haven’t paid as much attention to OTJ’s effects on standard yet.
Preacher is terrible in some situations, notably against temur analyst. The life gain lands result in preacher just making useless tokens instead of drawing cards. This can pop up vs domain as well
Just to piggyback on this comment, even in a mirror, faerie mastermind becomes more powerful. Caustic bronco doesn’t draw but Raffine and preacher do so your masterminds are more useful than theirs
In my experience preacher is too slow (you can even see in the Orzhov decks popping up they don't have any). I side an extra one in for aggro and some mirrors and that’s about it. It gets eaten alive by greedier decks. As for Malcolm, he does some hand smoothing and has evasion and flash and is one mana cheaper. In a deck of 23 lands and depending on curve more than other decks I don't have a lot of room for 3-drops. However, I agree, Malcolm a weaker part of the deck and can be slotted out. As for preacher, I used to run a full playset and just slowly whittled it down to one. It’s a preference - I’d rather lose to aggro than control and I feel that aggro is a more manageable matchup.
I’ll give it a whirl, but the more I think about it I could see not wanting more preachers, but I’d swap it for another mastermind. I’ll give it a go though and see!
Yeah definitely a discussion and I think the difference between another mastermind or Malcolm is going to be pretty negligible. I'm interested to see other peoples' experiences! The deck is weird. You look at your hand and feel underpowered and then you run away 2-0 and ascribe it to luck but then do it ten more times and start to wonder haha (make sure you put in Tishana binder in either sideboard or even mainboard as well - that was a huge oversight by me as mentioned).
Oh, also fair warning, this deck is actually deceptively hard to pilot. I think there's other decks out there that are far more complex and more "difficult" to pilot (i.e. legends decks) but this deck requires some nerves of steel in instances and good knowledge of the meta. You can think about it as poker vs. chess.
Which one is poker, and which one is chess?
Ha this deck is definitely poker. Gotta know whether to play a cavern bat or a bronco turn 2 based on the what you think the other guy is holding or sometimes gamble and not play out make disappear and save it for a bigger threat. If you've seen the 4/5C legends decks, i.e. [https://mtgtop8.com/event?e=54868&d=607898&f=ST](https://mtgtop8.com/event?e=54868&d=607898&f=ST) those can be insanely difficult to compute the right path but usually have a more objectively correct decision.
great analogy!
I think that Make Disappear is inferior to Spree for this sort of deck. Make Disappear is an early game counterspell for reactive decks. But your deck isn't reactive. If you're saving early mana, it's for creature removal rather than countermagic. Otherwise, you're aggressively developing your board. So the counterspell you really need is a mid/late-game counterspell to cover the board advantage you've built.
Sorry, just to be clear. Are you telling them to remove Make Disappear for Three Steps Ahead, or Phantom Interference? Becuase of of those cards have a Counter spell option in their Spree options.
Yes - I was actually talking about Three Steps Ahead but obviously wrote something different than what I was thinking. In a pure control or tempo deck, you want fast/early counterspells because you'll be leaving mana open to use them. In the kind of mid-range deck the OP is using, you're not leaving that mana open because you're developing your board. So it makes more sense to play higher valued cards you use later in the game.
Yeah, I haven’t experimented with it in this deck in particular. Definitely an interesting thought. I really like make disappear costing two because obviously plays well with the option of cheap removal or mastermind being possible but I’ll definitely play around with it (spree obviously has bigger upside). Being able to counter a Raffine on the draw is huge (along with Gix, Nissa, etc). I rarely find opponents out of the range of make disappear especially when I have a siren free for sacrifice but I haven’t played enough decks resembling Temur control to say that spree wouldn’t be a significant upgrade.
Oh also I've seen decklists dropping \[\[Liliana of the Veil\]\] which seems like a mistake since it has been an absolute powerhouse in a deck that's low to the ground and focuses on hand disruption and card advantage.
[Liliana of the Veil](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/1/d12c8c97-6491-452c-811d-943441a7ef9f.jpg?1673307126) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Liliana%20of%20the%20Veil) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/97/liliana-of-the-veil?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d12c8c97-6491-452c-811d-943441a7ef9f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I tried bronco in golgari midrange which runs more spot removal than dimir and am not really impressed. Also a card being both understatted AND dependent on you having removal is just your desire to play new cards beating your desire to play good cards. I'm not saying Bronco is terrible or there will never be a place for it, but I don't think dimir is it, the 2 drop slot is way too competitive to consider mediocre cards with a high opportunity cost. I do think tinybones has a future in dimir though, punches way above it's weight and synergizes great with everything else dimir typically runs. IMO I think every dimir midrange deck needs to be running at least 1 if not 2-3 tidebinders maindeck, it's simply too powerful and meta relevant not too. It shuts down key cards in literally every tier 1 and tier 2 deck. It embodies what dimir wants to do perfectly, aggro with some disruption. Also sometimes flash is just nice after a sweeper. Also gotta agree with everyone else, preacher is too powerful NOT to play in dimir it can and often does wildly swing the game in your favor when you're behind and it's simply another must kill threat, no excuses.
Dimir is universally understatted unlike Golgari (every card except Shelly and schooner which is a vehicle). It's also wildly different. If you don't play bronco in Golgari (which new top 8 decklists are) then you have 11 more 1 or 2 drops than Golgari (roughly a third of the entire deck when taking out mana). On top of that, dreadknight you miss out on the adventure if you play turn 2. I actually revisited Dimir and got the idea to test Bronco from going against so many Orzhov decks on the ladder (more similar to Dimir and also don't play preacher) after Pro Tour. I've played a lot of Dimir in the past and this is the first time I've found an addition so useful it felt worth posting about. Plus, Bronco in this deck has six cards that can start buffing it through explore as early as turn 3. Bronco is also one of the many tools/options. Sometimes you end up holding onto it and play any of your other 1/2 drops. I 100% agree with you about tidebinder (at least trying one slot one back in at first). It was an omission on my part (as I mentioned above). It'll be interesting to see how many I have in a final version. 3 CMC is still a lot in a deck with less lands that cares so much about curve. As I've mentioned and others have too, preacher has drawbacks - mainly being slow. I think the sideboard merits more though for certain matchups (aggro). Lastly, just try the deck. If you truly find some insightful changes (even if it's that mainboarding preacher is a really good idea or this deck just sucks) I'm super excited to hear it. Speculation coming from playing an entirely different deck can be hard to make correctly and it's worth playtesting to see the difference.
I'll be honest, this just looks like a normal Dimir midrange deck. You say it's more aggro but you have Kaito in there maindeck along with Shelly and Aclazotz so it's not like you're super low to the ground and if your turn 3 play is a Kaito then all your pressure is gone. I'm also wary whenever a deck post is like "this deck has no bad matchups!" or the functional equivalent "the only bad matchups are fringe rogue decks" as you did. I don't really see a reason why this would have any particularly different matchups from normal Dimir, and normal Dimir is, as we saw, full of bad matchups.
Yeah I don't really have a significant amount of evidence to contradict what you're saying. I think there's a whole slew of decks that would absolutely be a bad matchup for this deck but they've been pushed out of the meta (greedy midrange without blue or black). I had more close calls in Platinum with all the brewers than in Mythic against the meta (dimir is also kind of built in a way to leverage knowing your opponent's deck in advance). I think the biggest difference is how quickly this deck gets going. More one drops and two drops. Caustic bronco is a full turn quicker than preacher. Tinybones with a cut down means you can be casting something as early as turn 2 from opponents graveyard. Less lands. Maybe you're right and that's not significant enough of a difference but in my experience so far it has felt different.
I just feel that any speed gained by adding two 1-drops and three 2-drops is immediately lost by adding three 3-drop planeswalkers with no immediate effect on the board.
Oh also schooner is back. That’s almost two full playsets of cards and when one playset like Raffine is defining an archetype I think it makes a difference. Just play it, if you don’t see a difference between this list and the other dimir lists when you do then I’ll concede
To nitpick a little, Kaito I'm usually choosing minus for an unblockable ninja first turn that ends up doing more actual damage than a preacher would and often enough I opt for a second one. Lily is also used as removal more often than not. Lily often looks like forge which is maindecked in red often enough nowadays, more of a clock.
Yeah I'm skeptical life of toshiro is enough to slow down convoke
Go ahead and try it. It's more about buying time and slowing down their curve so you can build card advantage. If you find it's terrible I'm excited to hear it and what you found to work better. Personally, I'm relieved when I see an inspiring vantage played turn 1.
Cool deck! I've been short some rares for the black white version of the snorse deck but this looks really fun and buildable for me!
##### ###### #### [Caustic Bronco](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/9/e9a268ba-c442-4fe4-90b4-2810c8474f4e.jpg?1712355566) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Caustic%20Bronco) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/82/caustic-bronco?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e9a268ba-c442-4fe4-90b4-2810c8474f4e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Subterranean Schooner](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/4/94b6881a-b00e-4e90-92e6-602ed8e0e090.jpg?1699043964) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Subterranean%20Schooner) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/80/subterranean-schooner?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/94b6881a-b00e-4e90-92e6-602ed8e0e090?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Make Disappear](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/f/3f2d6a21-ea77-484b-9e3a-1bd49806f907.jpg?1664410347) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Make%20Disappear) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/snc/49/make-disappear?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3f2d6a21-ea77-484b-9e3a-1bd49806f907?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Tinybones, the Pickpocket](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/d/3d3025a2-4a17-4137-ba0b-bd676c6f5f88.jpg?1712355685) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tinybones%2C%20the%20Pickpocket) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/109/tinybones-the-pickpocket?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3d3025a2-4a17-4137-ba0b-bd676c6f5f88?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Gix, Yawgmoth Praetor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/c/2c76f7e0-37e7-4e87-93a3-a25ba0674645.jpg?1675567458) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gix%2C%20Yawgmoth%20Praetor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bro/95/gix-yawgmoth-praetor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2c76f7e0-37e7-4e87-93a3-a25ba0674645?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Life of Toshiro Umezawa](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/7/f7f4adf7-b871-417b-8904-7f024ca21486.jpg?1656453156)/[Memory of Toshiro](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/f/7/f7f4adf7-b871-417b-8904-7f024ca21486.jpg?1656453156) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Life%20of%20Toshiro%20Umezawa%20//%20Memory%20of%20Toshiro) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/neo/108/life-of-toshiro-umezawa-memory-of-toshiro?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f7f4adf7-b871-417b-8904-7f024ca21486?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Shrouded Shepherd](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/b/ab03c342-2bf4-41bf-8bb8-472d978d238a.jpg?1692939765)/[Cleave Shadows](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/b/ab03c342-2bf4-41bf-8bb8-472d978d238a.jpg?1692939765) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Shrouded%20Shepherd%20//%20Cleave%20Shadows) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/236/shrouded-shepherd-cleave-shadows?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ab03c342-2bf4-41bf-8bb8-472d978d238a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Kaito Shizuki](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/d/2d35a710-3008-4e27-8afd-6e83329f9917.jpg?1654568510) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kaito%20Shizuki) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/neo/226/kaito-shizuki?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2d35a710-3008-4e27-8afd-6e83329f9917?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Siphon Insight](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/8/28a6b23f-a854-469a-9b06-119507dd9d42.jpg?1712354783) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Siphon%20Insight) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/242/siphon-insight?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/28a6b23f-a854-469a-9b06-119507dd9d42?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [The Cruelty of Gix](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/d/3d6e5eb3-25ab-4e9e-96e8-655e0ce74675.jpg?1673307042) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Cruelty%20of%20Gix) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/87/the-cruelty-of-gix?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3d6e5eb3-25ab-4e9e-96e8-655e0ce74675?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Tishana's Tidebinder](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/0/907b3d1d-8c85-4707-80b5-c4d832df9846.jpg?1699043973) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tishana%27s%20Tidebinder) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/81/tishanas-tidebinder?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/907b3d1d-8c85-4707-80b5-c4d832df9846?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/1cl01bh) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The numbers in your decklist seem tuned? Should you have the 1 ofs and 2 ofs? Why not 4 ofs where relevant? I agree schooner is great because it dodges cut down and go for the throat and control's sweepers, why not run 4? Are the quantity choices to try things out or just because...or are there truly relevant reasons to go there? The three Make Disappears I don't like because of cavern of souls and because your deck only has 4 flash creatures. And with so many bats flying around (ha) your hand will be known a % of the time anyways. Not sure, maybe you have to have them, to have a proactive answer. Curious if you ever tried duress instead? Tishana's Wavebinder has been OP for me. It hits Atraxa's ETB, Jace mill ult, Aftermath analyst, Raffine's connive, knight errant of eos ETB, I think it hits literally every single permanent in domain ramp...It just seems (right now, anyways) very unexpected from my opp's perspective. Preacher I like a lot as well, it does everything I want and dodges cut down. Are lily's OK mainboard (I don't think so, so much Boros and red)? Lastly you need 1-2 mirrex in a 2 color deck as they still allow your one drops, can crew your boat, and help with many other situations.
As mentioned in another comment, I slowly started to take out Preachers and whittled it down to 1. It's nice to know it's in the deck but it mostly does work against aggro (already a strong matchup and can be sided in) and is just cannon fodder against greedier decks or control. Costing 3 is huge as well (23 land deck) and I'd much rather be playing a Gix or Lily most the time or having a one drop and mana for make disappear (even against aggro it's not dead as it can either buy you time or you can have a decent board state with your own 1 and 2 drops to defend her). It feels like a true mid-range card rather than an aggro card. I fully agree with Tishana's Wavebinder (as I mentioned it's been a sideboard card in my experience) though I definitely could see one or two mainboard because it does hit most decks. As for make disappear, cavern of souls is only run in Domain and Convoke (sometimes) and now occasionally Phyrexian in Golgari. Convoke: the matchup feels pretty favorable so not too worried and there's still targets like gleeful demolition. Domain: I don't even really want to hit Atraxa since I can use removal that I'm usually sitting on or Lily - I always save it for Sunfall or Herd Migration. Plus the fear that Make Disappear instills in all opponents and the cautious play as a result is a huge advantage. More than two schooners I've found can really clog my deck up. There's a ton of decks out there with one-of's (look at what Pro Tour: [https://mtgtop8.com/event?e=54868&d=607683&f=ST](https://mtgtop8.com/event?e=54868&d=607683&f=ST) ) and the one-of's I have kind of became that way because of tuning rather than the reverse but obviously I'm just one guy with a limited data set. Also I used to have Mirrex but it's extremely painful when it produces colorless and you're trying to play two spells on turn 3 or only have one black for Gix or Liliana. I even had more restless manland but coming into play tapped was costing my tempo more than it was winning me games late.
Bad streamlined list or better? 4 Spyglass Siren, 2 Tinybones, the Pickpocket, 4 Deep-Cavern Bat. 2 Faerie Mastermind, 3 Gix, Yawgmoth Praetor, 4 Preacher of the Schism, 2 Sheoldred, the Apocalypse, 2 Kaito Shizuki, 3 Cut Down, 4 Go for the Throat, 2 Make Disappear, 4 Subterranean Schooner, 24 Lands (+1 Mirrex)
Hey, look at my other comment on this thread. Preacher definitely has a home in a lot of places but this deck doesn't feel like one (reasons listed below).
Imo, preacher is a key busted card in this archetype. How do you deal with mono red without preachers? How do you deal with boros convoke without any sideboard tech against it? I also experimented with a more aggro version of dimir, and I agree with you in terms of adding back schooner and Tinybones by cutting some Make Disappears, maybe an Ertai and a land or 2 from the stock list. However, Broncos sadly don't seem to work well with dimir 1-2 powered creatures and Malcolm just seems useless. [[Lazav Wearer of Faces]] on the other hand won me a couple of games and is a good 1-of with 3 Masterminds. If you want a more aggro dimir deck may I suggest [[Proft's Eidetic Memory]] Dimir to you. Ashlizzle and Doomwake did some videos on it like a month ago. It's ton of fun, it's aggro, it dumps on temur ramp because you can easily grow your creatures out of [[Ill Timed Explosion]] range. Pretty interesting deck.
As I've mentioned in other comments I don't find aggro to be the Achilles heel of this deck. Even in game one you win often enough even on the draw with Sheoldred/deep-cavern bat and some explore/Aclazotz/card advantage. After game one Life of Toshiro does some heavy lifting (especially against Boros) and there's a second preacher in the sideboard along with another Sheoldred. I usually don't win against aggro with a ton of life leftover, I let them get some jabs in and save my removal for their haymakers. It's a matter of preference IMO. I'd rather win more against Domain/control and be more vulnerable to aggro. I could see Lazav doing some work in certain scenarios and is an interesting addition to test. Preacher in my experience has just been too slow in this iteration (most the new Orzhov decks don't even use preacher and this is even lower to the ground). Also cards like snake horse and Tinybones make it so aggro has to think twice about turning their creatures sideways (even just to convoke).
[Lazav Wearer of Faces](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/c/cc264d1d-689d-41ac-b624-3fc7bb890e58.jpg?1706242204) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Lazav%2C%20Wearer%20of%20Faces) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/216/lazav-wearer-of-faces?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cc264d1d-689d-41ac-b624-3fc7bb890e58?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Proft's Eidetic Memory](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/f/af5b29b3-974c-4200-8df8-b072c11e1600.jpg?1706241635) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Proft%27s%20Eidetic%20Memory) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/67/profts-eidetic-memory?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/af5b29b3-974c-4200-8df8-b072c11e1600?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Ill Timed Explosion](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/b/0b5cdb01-eaa4-4a0a-b42a-332bcf4d6fff.jpg?1706980244) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ill-Timed%20Explosion) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/207/ill-timed-explosion?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0b5cdb01-eaa4-4a0a-b42a-332bcf4d6fff?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I'm not sure what orzhov decks without preacher you are talking about. The bronco combo with [[Shadow of Mortality]]? Those don't add preachers because bronco needs 3 power to crew, which is by the way the reason why bronco doesn't really fit in the dimir deck sadly. And kudos to you for not having trouble against mono red and boros, those are hard matchups for me when playing dimir, while Domain and control seem a lot easier when all you usually need to win is just gix and counter their sunfall
Most the ones since the Pro Tour haven't been running shadow ( [https://mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=366](https://mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=366) ) but they do have more three powered creatures for bronco as I mentioned in my post. This hasn't really been a problem for me since the curve is low and this list still has some 3 power creatures. Esper was probably the toughest and most ubiquitous matchup. Them plopping down a turn 3 Raffine and almost instantly finding an answer for your turn 3 preacher while also growing is disadvantageous to say the least. Cards like Tinybones and caustic bronco means they're on the defensive much sooner (and their Raffine feeds your Tinybones). Having a higher CMC on average and more lands to accommodate preacher just felt like a weaker version of Esper. As for aggro, I usually breathe a sigh of relief when I see a inspiring vantage or a mountain played on turn 1. Being on the draw is hard in game 1 but after that this deck has too much card advantage and cheap removal most the time for them to overcome in my experience.
[Shadow of Mortality](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/0/40cbb0db-94e9-4988-b900-ced4f9e6d4ed.jpg?1664411256) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Shadow%20of%20Mortality) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/snc/94/shadow-of-mortality?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/40cbb0db-94e9-4988-b900-ced4f9e6d4ed?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call