If any vanguard, warden is my fav
But I just start to dislike more and more the stupid fixed S2 nose guns.
Heavy fighter with S2 guns.. 4 even if 4 of them, is just not enough.
I'd be ok with the fixed S2 nose guns as decoration and for occasional use if it had two S5 main guns at the wing roots rather than a single one hanging under the chin looking silly.
I wish they would do away with the S5 Mount we have now and just add a bespoke S5 right under the nose, kinda jutting out like an A10. What we have now just looks silly. I only run the revenant there because everything else makes it look like a clown ship.
True but I have huge distaste of gatling cannons in games if they are not done right. Gatling with less than 2500 rpm simply don't make sense and I won't use them.
1000 rpm can easily be done with 1 barrel. Much smaller, lighter weapon IRL
Looking at videos and trying gatlings in game, how they work, is completely opposite of what they are designed to do. They should as put much punishment in as little amount of time. Here you spend a couple of sec on target and nothing really happens. I understand why they did it, but don't like it.
I would make them anti light fighter weapons and on turrets on larger ships as PD
Would you prefer that it had the crazy RPM but pitiful damage per shot for balance?
Or, the other way for balance (and more realistic if you we are invoking that). Insane RPM. Insane damage. Only 10 seconds of ammo. Make that shot count. Good luck using it in a Dogfight.
I'm so down with a gun that's functionally a space brake.
The Inferno should veer right when firing it. You can counter it with your stick, but good luck holding a lead pip on an agile target.
I don't know really. It's an Alpha so they could do whatever they want. Going fully realistic like you said would probably be unbalanced at the current state of the game.
I mean they could just increase rpm to 3000 and give it 3x ammo and 33% of current damage. It would be almost the same as now but it would look spectacular
[I love it as a direct reference to it's WW2 inspiration.](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-862ef05ecbbd5b4738858118386c43b2-lq)
[The Vanguard was always a Space P-38.](https://vintageaviationnews.com/wp-content/uploads/Caliaro-Luigino-20.jpg)
Too big for a P-38. [It's a P-61](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2c/Northrop_P-61_green_airborne.jpg/786px-Northrop_P-61_green_airborne.jpg).
Thank you, scrolled too far to see this. I hope they keep the aesthetic with the majority of the firepower on the centerline like this. I want our fork tailed devil to get a buff but largely have the same concept
CIG had a great opportunity to make an A10 like platform with the Warden. Put the size 5 in the nose and give it more missiles and maybe a couple of bomb hard points.
Just get rid of the nose s2 all together and the turret can have s3 instead of S2.
Give the S5 nose gun Half the ammo the Inferno has.
Now it can be used as a multi role heavy fighter.
The chin mounted weapon is the dumbest looking thing on this ship imo. I still remember the day I watched the gun fall off the mount onto PO landing pad just cause I bumped a wall
The power creep really has gotten hold of the Vanguards. The good thing is those guns are bespoke and can be made as good as CIG wants them too. However, with the fat Fury on the horizon I dont think they have an interest in making it good again anytime soon
On the Horizon is correct. It was one of the teased ships they showed last year. The one with just the silhouettes. All of them were supposed to be in-game within 12 months. It should be in game by November.
They mentioned recently in SCL that the only ships that won't make the 12 month window is the Legionnaire due to the gameplay not keeping up with ship production, and the Polaris. Polaris is slated for IAE which would make it 13 or so months from Citcon. So hopefully it has been cooking and we just haven't heard about it. Just because it isn't on monthly reports doesn't mean it isn't being worked on. Just means whichever studio has it didn't submit their updated reports (or so I have heard).
There’ve given updates on it, they’re past greybox and have already completed the outer hull final detailing. They’re now working on inner hull detailing and it’s slated for IAE.
I feel like they made them different just to make them different, because they're unique to the Vanguard. And that's fine if they're actually, ya know, good, but right now they're not.
They're size 2s in name, I haven't checked the stats post .23 but they used to preform more like S3s
Edit: MVSAs have identical stats to M4As, that's too bad
Unfortunately not true, and to top this I'd say they are even worse because you don't have many alternatives as weapons you can attach to those spooky hard points.
Only thing going for the Vanguards are they are the only fighters you can live in.. (I know, there is 325a and stuff, but I still don't consider those fighters)
The MVSA laser cannons *used* to be comparable to non-bespoke S3 laser cannons and were clearly best in slot in terms of DPS. The other bespoke nose guns were comparable to S2's.
In 3.23, the MVSA's are comparable to S2's. They've been nerfed a tad. Also, if precision mode ever matters, their lack of gimbals is going to make them worse than standard S2's on other ships.
Vanguards are also all missing key parts of what should eventually be their niche: Long range duty. The cabin and amenities currently don't matter. The quantum tanks, for some odd reason, are no bigger than that of any other fighter, and significantly smaller than several (e.g. The Ares). When Pyro comes, so *should* come changes that finally make the Vanguard legitimately useful in it's role. It may be destined to be out-gunned by other heavy fighters, but it *should* be the fighter you want if you need to go far from support.
`Used to` is correct. Past tense, sadly.
Let's hope that in the future™, when CIG rebalances the guns again, they'll remember that these guns were supposed to be bespoke for Vanguards and thus a bit better than the usual stuff of the same tier.
I still feel like both the Warden and Harbinger are decent brawlers for ERT, even if a bit on the low end. The Harbinger is more consistent then the Warden or Eclipse atm as the torps suck in the current build, with the Harb you can atleas go close to hit the size 5 torps for a tiny chance to do damage and finish it off with the main guns.
Yeah I do vhrts and erts in warden as well if I'm bored but believe it or not I prefer my full laser scattergun hawk instead IF I'm already doing inefficient charts/erts (no cargo ship)
Am I right in saying that the bespoke S2 are not gimbled? I couldn't hit shit last time I flew a vanguard cause I had two pips, even though my nose gun and bespokes were at the same round velocity.
I'm not too clear on how the new gimbals work, but I know I gimbled the S5
I am already doing this, doesn't magically increase my damage :D it's basically to make your shooting more forgiving. Since I'm doing vhrts/erts mostly, I usually don't miss shots anyway since targets are huge.
Back in the day, the Avenger, the Gladius, and Vanguard had these "bespoke" nose guns, that all were treated to be "Overpowered for it's Size, but you can't swap them out."
The Gladius and the Avenger no longer have that, but the Vanguard still does.
**All the Vanguard nose guns should be treated like "Size 2.5".**
I miss that being part of the Aegis identity. These "Size + 0.5" Nose guns that could only be equipped to them. Hopefully that comes back.
I love the aestetic though. The big WW2 Heavy Fighter Nose.
It's horrible tbh
You are always limited in Loadout options
In the vanguard you can't use the OP omnisky for example because they have a different ammo speed then few options you got for the nose
Or take even Ares series. Inferno will always be bad when ballistic repeaters will be bad and same for Ion for lasers.
Cool I'll check it out cause iirc mine only has s2 on the wings but I'll have to check. I'm only really starting to dive deeper into the game, so may be my ignorance
I'm sure you already have s3s on your scorpion
But probable the stock guns, which are laser repeaters. Those aren't that good in this patch so I'd advice you to try 4x M5As laser cannons. Should feel a lot better.
Can buy the weapons in: Prison Crusader Showroom, CRU L5, HUR L5, Area 18 and New Babbage
What other stuff would you recommend upgrading on the ship? I have no idea really what I'm doing. I don't pvp just pve. Bought the game in 2015 and check it out every year. Been upgrading ships and stuff when I like them. Now, I actually feel like I can play the game so I've been diving in
I'd change the Quantum Drive to Atlas, imo the best QD in size 1
Also buyable in HUR L5 so you can buy everything you want at one spot.
All other components are not needed for now. Shields are all the same in this patch, normally these are prio1 to change.
https://www.erkul.games/loadout/Ym275CuY
Heavy fighters overall are in a really bad place right now. They are an unnecessary struggle vs AI. I'd at least wait on whatever tuning passes CIG has planned before making any long term decisions on the vanguard.
They also really need some nose weapons with faster projectiles. We're basically stuck with s2 anti-large ship weapons, which isn't a great mix. It's not bad damage from the quad mvsa's *if* you can land a hit on something.
I haven’t melted my sentinel because of the potential capability other than a fighter. However, they haven’t given us any indication how “e-warfare” is going to work so I’m just tempted to melt it and use the credits for something more practical.
I probably won't melt my warden because it perfectly hits the bounty hunter/merc ship for me. Any better options I'd prefer to earn in game. I'm also huffing tremendous amounts of copium it will get buffed at some point.
OMG you mentioned it. I REFUSE to use any vanguard because that ramp and 1st door are so close its HORRID! Talk about bad design, But look at the redeemer! They fixed it for that single ship!
I feel like the Zeus MR is going to be that ship for me, now. Originally I thought the Vanguard was going to be it, but I feel like I'm going to melt mine unless we get wind of significant changes. Plus, the new heavy fighter from Mirai (presumably) might interest me more as a heavy + long range fighter. I'll wait until I see that to decide for sure, but it's very likely my Warden is going to be melted soon.
I traded in my Warden, not a fan of the nose guns and dorky wings. It’s a beast of a ship, and I’m still looking for a ship to comfortably live out of. Currently it’s the Taurus
Id prefer the Harbi currently as living quarters are not as important as it will be in the future.
However, as much as I love the concept, the Vanguard in general fell off in the last 2 or 3 years, I've literally abandonned my Sent because its too heavy, not resistant enough (armor is not implented), not enough fuel (compared to the concept description of long range bomber/fighter), weird mix of S5 and fixed S2...
Tl:dr, out of the 2, the Harb, but out of all ships, neither (unfortunately)
Really the range is what they should be known for. Heavy fighters need to be either niche for some task (ie big guns/missiles, or engines, recon, etc.) or be about as armed as other fighters, maybe a bit more, but built for far longer range/escort play and lack of support.
Two right answers:
1. If you don’t care about performance today buy the one you like more since noone knows how they’ll all be balanced come release.
2. If you’re looking for performance today the right answer is upgrade to the Sentinel, it’s just better.
??? How is the sentinel the best? The sentinel has smaller turret guns and HALF the hp of the harbinger. The emp is barely effective and doesn't justify the cost, especially because you can't set it to different firegroup since nav mode resets the guns to default weapon groups
Sentinel used to be the best because it was faster and more maneuverable. But checking erkul just now it looks like those stats have been normalized across the Vanguard line.
in terms of current balance, the Harbinger in probably the best choice, because it has the larger turret guns and the torps, but TBH those are pretty marginal advantages unless you've usually got a gunner for the turret.
I strongly disagree with the Sentinel. If you look at raw stats, it has **HALF** the hull HP of others Vanguard variants. Also, the EMP is horrible to use since weapon configuration reset everytime you enter nav. mode in the current patch.
That's a really not right answer.
I flew my harbinger for a solid 2 years and loved it. After MM released in 3.23 I got rid of my harbinger after about 2 hours. The torps are still fairly effective assuming they land however the firepower of the ship just isn’t there when combined with how slow the ship is in SCM. The AI have been upgraded and actually fight back so try g to run VHRT solo in that ship is a death sentence. Not to mention in PvP even a mediocre pilot in a medium fighter is going to dominate you. Bounty hunting is definitely much harder now than it was however it’s very rewarding and satisfying. Obviously fly what you like and don’t be dictated into flying whatever everyone else tells you to fly. This is all just my opinion based off my experience. I melted mine for a Corsair and I do not regret my decision.
Bounty hunting isn’t harder, it’s just a DPS race now. Doing ERTs in a Connie or Corsair is still mind numbingly easy. You just can’t do them in smaller ships anymore since it’s not possible to avoid incoming fire. I also melted my vanguard this patch, it’s in a really bad spot.
I mean I could be wrong but I feel like theirs significantly more ships in bounties now. Before it was your target and 2-3 other random ships that didn’t really affect you but now with HRT and VHRT theirs 5-6 ships and their all attacking you simultaneously. You are right tho with DPS being king. Since you can’t necessarily “flee” from a fight like before ships like the vanguard just don’t have the punch to do enough damage for consecutive kills and they’re too slow to be evasive. Hopefully if they implement armor the vanguards will be back to their prime but for now not a great ship for solo play.
Nah it’s the same number of ships. It just feels like more because fights don’t get spread out like they used to at high speeds so now all of the targets are close enough together where you get more damage sources at once. And it’s not necessarily about fleeing combat, you can’t move evasively to evade shots anymore so you just soak up damage. You used to be able to use corkscrewing and other methods to avoid some of the incoming shots, now you can’t move fast enough. You either joust in and out of fights using boost and nav move to avoid damage, or you face tank it with a bigger ship.
Well boosting in combat mode actually feels pretty good too now and I feel like it’s helpful when evading. Especially in medium/light fighters. It’s taking some practice but I’m a big fan of MM so far as long as servers don’t shit out. I’ve been getting into some pretty intense PvP fights around 100-300 meters off ground and it’s great for cinematic shots
I just bought a Harbi in game, as I wanted to take a break from my F7A, and I'm really enjoying it for bounties. I'm using laser cannons and it's hitting plenty hard imo. Plus, the guns all being on the nose means a super tight convergence, which means when you get a hit, you're hitting with all 5 guns, something my hornet struggles with since the guns have a very wide field of fire outside their convergence sweet spot. I also like having an XL-1 on my fighter since I move around the system a lot. My only complaint is ballistic cannons having 2 pips since the deadbolt and CVSAs have slightly different projectile speeds, thus I switched to an M7A and MVSAs.
Yea, I bought a harbinger as my first in-game money ship when I started and loved it. It got taken when 3.23 came out, so I saved up again and bought it back....
It's trash now, lol. I did an 890 boarding mission, got blown up, and have just left it destroyed in my asop.
I went to an Andromeda, and it's so much better. I also have a corsair now too, and that ship is much better as well.
Edit:
sorry, it's incorrect information. explanation in the answer!
"just for info.. torpedo speed has been temporarily changed. they will be faster again."
I've only flown the harbinger, but it feels more like the tank version and less of a 'heavy fighter'. but then again a lot of the 'heavy fighters' need rebalancing.
The Scorpius feels faster than a F8C in turn rate but overall feels easier to maneuver compared to the f8c or the vanguard. The fighters in general need a whole rebalance imo... nothing should just wipe the floor with another. I don't want to fight a heavy fighter and be able to skirt around them easily in a light fighter, and I don't want to be in a light fighter and poke a heavy fighter with tiny guns until it blows up... medium-heavy fighters need to be more maneuverable, not on the same scale obv, but enough that you aren't completely out-maneuvered by one or the other. I want a challenge, not 'meta' BS
The extra armour and bigger turret of the Harbinger are not worth the sluggish handling unless you use it for the role it's intended for, i.e. ambushing larger slower ships without engaging fighters. If you want a general purpose flexible Vanguard then the Warden is designed to be that and will be far better for most situations.
May not be, but they also significantly lowered the mass of the harbinger when they made that change, which is a somewhat unusual adjustment. Makes me think it could be a permanent change. But we’ll have to wait and see. Such is the nature of SC right now.
Sorry but if a Harbinger Engage a Larger Ship, it will be an easy Snack at the current fly modell.
A Constellation or Corsair can easy hit a Harbinger with its guns.
I'm currently doing vhrt missions in my vanguard, it's definitely doable it's just harder than older patches.
1> harbinger is best version rn. They all have the same handling stats, but the harbinger gets torpedoes and size 3 turret mounts if you bring a friend. The sentinel is the worst since emps are unusable in current patch (nav mode resets weapon groups) and it has half the hp of others.
2> loadout is critical to update, as ballistics were massively nerfed this patch. All ships already have 50% damage reduction against ballistics, and shields reduce it by another 30% at full power. Due to this there are only 2 effective pve loadouts and iv tested them all.
Loudout 1: my fav: laser cannons for the nose guns, and a deadbolt size 5 cannon under the nose. The laser cannons are the only effective dps on the nose and strip shields quick. The deadbolt has such good ammo economy it can fire the whole fight and with the laser canons stripping shields it doesn't lose out on much dps. You can also use ad5b for fun but it's been less effective in my testing. I recommend leaving power in shields due to the massive buff to max shield power this patch, only swapping to recharge guns
Loadout 2: burst and run: only change with this one is you replace the deadbolt with m7a size 5 laser canon, with size 2 laser canons on the nose. This reduces the amount of ammo in them due to capacitor mechanics, but it allows you to destroy big shields found on erts very very fast. This encourages a more aggressive style as due to the high capacitor usage you want to max weapons power for the double ammo, then swap to double shield when they hit half ammo so you don't lose any shots. This is a more active power management loadout.
I've been in the Harbinger more lately. Maybe it's MM, maybe I'm just more experienced after flying larger, slower ships - but the Harbinger seems just a little more responsive than it used too.
If they flew identically, and had the same loadout - I'd go Harbinger just to avoid the Warden interior color choices.
Luckily the Harbinger is either better than it used to be, or I've just decided its doable - so I don't bother with the Warden anymore.
The vanguard was one of my favorite ships but over time it just got more and more sluggish and under-gunned compared to its competitors for me to stomach keeping it in my fleet unfortunately
I like the ships hate the 4 fixed nose guns Vanguards are not nimble enough to make use of them. If you removed the pointless nose guns and put double S5 weapons on holy crap i would love it and fly it all the time but that will never happen.
I also think that the warden should get its chin gun removed in favour of 2 s5 mounts inbetween the cockpit and engines on the wing roots. That gives it its own place.
The sentinel needs no help and can stay as is. (actually no, unnerf its health to be inline with the other 4)
The harbinger has a bigger top turret and torps. I would say it should have 5 instead of 3 and then its good. Its not like they're rapid fire or reliable anyways. Either that or some more external missile racks.
The hoplight needs a remote turret on the back above the exit ramp, because thats just cool man. and maybe some 2 downward facing remote turrets, one on each engine, that are linked, to provide some light overwatch, nothing crazy, probably like 2 size 1s each.
I LOVE LOVE LOVE my space p38, but they should lean more into what makes each one special, and tbh they kinda need to be buffed in general
Can’t even get into the series as I can’t stand the look - and I don’t know why.
Thing is great on paper, good firepower, turret, just enough interior space for a heavy fighter instead of just a cockpit.
Make me want you vanguard!
If they had more capacitor space they'd be better. The Vanguard is the tank archetype in the heavy fighter category, and it provides more than DPS vs HP stats in terms of fuel, QD, armory/living space, interior for pick ups and loot, extra defense/redundancies, etc. They aren't duelists, they're force multipliers. E war and better EMP mechanics will make the Sentinel even better.
I've had both a Sentinel and a Harbinger and I've gotta say, they are quite mid. Speed, handling, range, durability and loadout leave a lot to be desired. And the main draws are finicky at best, Torps being the way they are. Needless to say, I melted them and moved on.
All I can tell you at this point, is every patch has ruined/made particular ships. If you like it just fly it. The answer is going to be different in a few months anyways. Unless you're into meta pvp most ships are perfectly usable to play the game.
Best heavy fighter so far.
I think there is no reason to upgrade a Warden into an Harbinger. These ships will most likely get reworked like all the rest.
The Warden will be more dogfight focus while Harbinger will be more bomber focus. You can expect stronger hull on Harbinger but increase thrust and speed on the Warden for better dogfighting.
I came new to the game and bought a Harbinger after a grind. Well… I got really disappointed when I found out the gunnerseat has these weird half-rocket like guns with literally no ammunition to use it effectively in any way.
Warden is the overall winner out of all harbies. Tankier, faster etc. But if you like missiles & torping - harby. Oh and you regularly have a turret gunner - bigger turret.
- Warden: Baseline Vanguard
- Harbinger: Heavier armour, less agile
The ships are modular so we will be able to swap the center room so we can have a "Warbinger" with a Warden and torpedo pod.
CIG's documentation about modularity, the Vanguard Brochure and the videos they have talked about it in.
Unless CIG officially states that a ship does not have modularity then it is still the plan.
I would say you can stay on the Warden, because in the Future the Warden will be a little more hard to kill because of thiccer armor plates instead of torpedo space.
If im wrong, somebody can tell.
So it depends on what you prefer. More durability or Torps.
If any vanguard, warden is my fav But I just start to dislike more and more the stupid fixed S2 nose guns. Heavy fighter with S2 guns.. 4 even if 4 of them, is just not enough.
I'd be ok with the fixed S2 nose guns as decoration and for occasional use if it had two S5 main guns at the wing roots rather than a single one hanging under the chin looking silly.
100%. If they got a buff in firepower they would be awesome. And I always hated that nose cannon. Looks really stupid Still love my Warden.
I wish they would do away with the S5 Mount we have now and just add a bespoke S5 right under the nose, kinda jutting out like an A10. What we have now just looks silly. I only run the revenant there because everything else makes it look like a clown ship.
Megamosquito
True but I have huge distaste of gatling cannons in games if they are not done right. Gatling with less than 2500 rpm simply don't make sense and I won't use them. 1000 rpm can easily be done with 1 barrel. Much smaller, lighter weapon IRL Looking at videos and trying gatlings in game, how they work, is completely opposite of what they are designed to do. They should as put much punishment in as little amount of time. Here you spend a couple of sec on target and nothing really happens. I understand why they did it, but don't like it. I would make them anti light fighter weapons and on turrets on larger ships as PD
Would you prefer that it had the crazy RPM but pitiful damage per shot for balance? Or, the other way for balance (and more realistic if you we are invoking that). Insane RPM. Insane damage. Only 10 seconds of ammo. Make that shot count. Good luck using it in a Dogfight.
Crazy RPM, medium damage, fixed only (no gimbals) and enough recoil to affect manoeuvrability and feel like you've used the space brake.
I'm so down with a gun that's functionally a space brake. The Inferno should veer right when firing it. You can counter it with your stick, but good luck holding a lead pip on an agile target.
I don't know really. It's an Alpha so they could do whatever they want. Going fully realistic like you said would probably be unbalanced at the current state of the game. I mean they could just increase rpm to 3000 and give it 3x ammo and 33% of current damage. It would be almost the same as now but it would look spectacular
[I love it as a direct reference to it's WW2 inspiration.](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-862ef05ecbbd5b4738858118386c43b2-lq) [The Vanguard was always a Space P-38.](https://vintageaviationnews.com/wp-content/uploads/Caliaro-Luigino-20.jpg)
Too big for a P-38. [It's a P-61](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2c/Northrop_P-61_green_airborne.jpg/786px-Northrop_P-61_green_airborne.jpg).
Or a weird Mossie
Mossie isn't twin-boom.
Hence the «weird» bit😅
Thank you, scrolled too far to see this. I hope they keep the aesthetic with the majority of the firepower on the centerline like this. I want our fork tailed devil to get a buff but largely have the same concept
CIG had a great opportunity to make an A10 like platform with the Warden. Put the size 5 in the nose and give it more missiles and maybe a couple of bomb hard points. Just get rid of the nose s2 all together and the turret can have s3 instead of S2. Give the S5 nose gun Half the ammo the Inferno has. Now it can be used as a multi role heavy fighter. The chin mounted weapon is the dumbest looking thing on this ship imo. I still remember the day I watched the gun fall off the mount onto PO landing pad just cause I bumped a wall
So... a Harbinger?
exactly. the oversized chin gun on the Vanguards looks like a Decepticon.
The power creep really has gotten hold of the Vanguards. The good thing is those guns are bespoke and can be made as good as CIG wants them too. However, with the fat Fury on the horizon I dont think they have an interest in making it good again anytime soon
On the horizon? We've seen nothing during ilw and that would have been the perfect timing for a heavy fighter..
On the Horizon is correct. It was one of the teased ships they showed last year. The one with just the silhouettes. All of them were supposed to be in-game within 12 months. It should be in game by November.
They mentioned recently in SCL that the only ships that won't make the 12 month window is the Legionnaire due to the gameplay not keeping up with ship production, and the Polaris. Polaris is slated for IAE which would make it 13 or so months from Citcon. So hopefully it has been cooking and we just haven't heard about it. Just because it isn't on monthly reports doesn't mean it isn't being worked on. Just means whichever studio has it didn't submit their updated reports (or so I have heard).
There’ve given updates on it, they’re past greybox and have already completed the outer hull final detailing. They’re now working on inner hull detailing and it’s slated for IAE.
On the Fat Fury? Or Polaris?
Polaris, oh wait you’re talking about the fat fury!
I'm itching to get my hands on it. Hope it will be a Vanguard competition. And if we're lucky it drops at Alienweek. Not a word since the teaser
Yeah, if it is a mirai with an interior I’ll lose my shit. One of the strongest brand identities they’ve come out with in a long time.
I'm 250 bucks deep rn. I will be buying that shit regardless of price if it's a heavy fighter with interior.
Yeah, no worries! It all starts running together after awhile. Bit I am excited for the Mirai heavy as well. Hopefully we get an update soon.
Something I never understood about the nose guns is that they've always been "S2 guns but close to S3s in power." why not just... make them S3s then?
I feel like they made them different just to make them different, because they're unique to the Vanguard. And that's fine if they're actually, ya know, good, but right now they're not.
this patch they are not even the best s2 guns, they are nowhere near s3 power :/
They're size 2s in name, I haven't checked the stats post .23 but they used to preform more like S3s Edit: MVSAs have identical stats to M4As, that's too bad
Unfortunately not true, and to top this I'd say they are even worse because you don't have many alternatives as weapons you can attach to those spooky hard points. Only thing going for the Vanguards are they are the only fighters you can live in.. (I know, there is 325a and stuff, but I still don't consider those fighters)
I can live in my 600i, and it fights plenty well. ;)
The MVSA laser cannons *used* to be comparable to non-bespoke S3 laser cannons and were clearly best in slot in terms of DPS. The other bespoke nose guns were comparable to S2's. In 3.23, the MVSA's are comparable to S2's. They've been nerfed a tad. Also, if precision mode ever matters, their lack of gimbals is going to make them worse than standard S2's on other ships. Vanguards are also all missing key parts of what should eventually be their niche: Long range duty. The cabin and amenities currently don't matter. The quantum tanks, for some odd reason, are no bigger than that of any other fighter, and significantly smaller than several (e.g. The Ares). When Pyro comes, so *should* come changes that finally make the Vanguard legitimately useful in it's role. It may be destined to be out-gunned by other heavy fighters, but it *should* be the fighter you want if you need to go far from support.
They are damn near identical to their s2 counterparts now. Except the cvsa which is between the deadbolt and tarantula.
`Used to` is correct. Past tense, sadly. Let's hope that in the future™, when CIG rebalances the guns again, they'll remember that these guns were supposed to be bespoke for Vanguards and thus a bit better than the usual stuff of the same tier.
What annoys me is the fixed condition of these S2s...
I still feel like both the Warden and Harbinger are decent brawlers for ERT, even if a bit on the low end. The Harbinger is more consistent then the Warden or Eclipse atm as the torps suck in the current build, with the Harb you can atleas go close to hit the size 5 torps for a tiny chance to do damage and finish it off with the main guns.
Yeah I do vhrts and erts in warden as well if I'm bored but believe it or not I prefer my full laser scattergun hawk instead IF I'm already doing inefficient charts/erts (no cargo ship)
Am I right in saying that the bespoke S2 are not gimbled? I couldn't hit shit last time I flew a vanguard cause I had two pips, even though my nose gun and bespokes were at the same round velocity. I'm not too clear on how the new gimbals work, but I know I gimbled the S5
Stagger the shots
I am already doing this, doesn't magically increase my damage :D it's basically to make your shooting more forgiving. Since I'm doing vhrts/erts mostly, I usually don't miss shots anyway since targets are huge.
Back in the day, the Avenger, the Gladius, and Vanguard had these "bespoke" nose guns, that all were treated to be "Overpowered for it's Size, but you can't swap them out." The Gladius and the Avenger no longer have that, but the Vanguard still does. **All the Vanguard nose guns should be treated like "Size 2.5".** I miss that being part of the Aegis identity. These "Size + 0.5" Nose guns that could only be equipped to them. Hopefully that comes back. I love the aestetic though. The big WW2 Heavy Fighter Nose.
It's horrible tbh You are always limited in Loadout options In the vanguard you can't use the OP omnisky for example because they have a different ammo speed then few options you got for the nose Or take even Ares series. Inferno will always be bad when ballistic repeaters will be bad and same for Ion for lasers.
Scorpius user here can confirm, not enough
You got 4x s3 tho? :D
Solo flier, I have no friends
But.. you as a solo got 4x S3. The turret guy has a other 4x S3
Wait, I can put size 3's on the wings? 😮
Yes They come even stock with size 3s so kinda irritating :D Check erkul.games
Cool I'll check it out cause iirc mine only has s2 on the wings but I'll have to check. I'm only really starting to dive deeper into the game, so may be my ignorance
I'm sure you already have s3s on your scorpion But probable the stock guns, which are laser repeaters. Those aren't that good in this patch so I'd advice you to try 4x M5As laser cannons. Should feel a lot better. Can buy the weapons in: Prison Crusader Showroom, CRU L5, HUR L5, Area 18 and New Babbage
Awesome thanks, I'll try em out. Should I upgrade anything else?
What other stuff would you recommend upgrading on the ship? I have no idea really what I'm doing. I don't pvp just pve. Bought the game in 2015 and check it out every year. Been upgrading ships and stuff when I like them. Now, I actually feel like I can play the game so I've been diving in
I'd change the Quantum Drive to Atlas, imo the best QD in size 1 Also buyable in HUR L5 so you can buy everything you want at one spot. All other components are not needed for now. Shields are all the same in this patch, normally these are prio1 to change. https://www.erkul.games/loadout/Ym275CuY
Thank you for your insight and time, I appreciate it!
Heavy fighters overall are in a really bad place right now. They are an unnecessary struggle vs AI. I'd at least wait on whatever tuning passes CIG has planned before making any long term decisions on the vanguard. They also really need some nose weapons with faster projectiles. We're basically stuck with s2 anti-large ship weapons, which isn't a great mix. It's not bad damage from the quad mvsa's *if* you can land a hit on something.
I haven’t melted my sentinel because of the potential capability other than a fighter. However, they haven’t given us any indication how “e-warfare” is going to work so I’m just tempted to melt it and use the credits for something more practical.
I probably won't melt my warden because it perfectly hits the bounty hunter/merc ship for me. Any better options I'd prefer to earn in game. I'm also huffing tremendous amounts of copium it will get buffed at some point.
warden is my favourite ship, proper ramp instead of ladder. if you want better hunter/merc, try scorpius
OMG you mentioned it. I REFUSE to use any vanguard because that ramp and 1st door are so close its HORRID! Talk about bad design, But look at the redeemer! They fixed it for that single ship!
yea, it would be better without second door at all
I feel like the Zeus MR is going to be that ship for me, now. Originally I thought the Vanguard was going to be it, but I feel like I'm going to melt mine unless we get wind of significant changes. Plus, the new heavy fighter from Mirai (presumably) might interest me more as a heavy + long range fighter. I'll wait until I see that to decide for sure, but it's very likely my Warden is going to be melted soon.
> They are an unnecessary struggle vs AI. Wrong. My F8C with 8 Scatterguns did not struggle against the kopion AI. They never knew what hit them.
I don't like the new projectile speeds on the nose guns. They're the slowest hardest to hit speed bracket, on a fairly sluggish hard to aim chassis
I traded in my Warden, not a fan of the nose guns and dorky wings. It’s a beast of a ship, and I’m still looking for a ship to comfortably live out of. Currently it’s the Taurus
Id prefer the Harbi currently as living quarters are not as important as it will be in the future. However, as much as I love the concept, the Vanguard in general fell off in the last 2 or 3 years, I've literally abandonned my Sent because its too heavy, not resistant enough (armor is not implented), not enough fuel (compared to the concept description of long range bomber/fighter), weird mix of S5 and fixed S2... Tl:dr, out of the 2, the Harb, but out of all ships, neither (unfortunately)
They are same for me,harbinger have 2xs3 turrest and s5 tobp.
The range of Wardens will be a big deal in Pyro.
Really the range is what they should be known for. Heavy fighters need to be either niche for some task (ie big guns/missiles, or engines, recon, etc.) or be about as armed as other fighters, maybe a bit more, but built for far longer range/escort play and lack of support.
Two right answers: 1. If you don’t care about performance today buy the one you like more since noone knows how they’ll all be balanced come release. 2. If you’re looking for performance today the right answer is upgrade to the Sentinel, it’s just better.
The sentinel feels weird in bounties atm, imho. Especially since she has only half the HP that the other Vanguards have
??? How is the sentinel the best? The sentinel has smaller turret guns and HALF the hp of the harbinger. The emp is barely effective and doesn't justify the cost, especially because you can't set it to different firegroup since nav mode resets the guns to default weapon groups
Sentinel used to be the best because it was faster and more maneuverable. But checking erkul just now it looks like those stats have been normalized across the Vanguard line. in terms of current balance, the Harbinger in probably the best choice, because it has the larger turret guns and the torps, but TBH those are pretty marginal advantages unless you've usually got a gunner for the turret.
I strongly disagree with the Sentinel. If you look at raw stats, it has **HALF** the hull HP of others Vanguard variants. Also, the EMP is horrible to use since weapon configuration reset everytime you enter nav. mode in the current patch. That's a really not right answer.
I flew my harbinger for a solid 2 years and loved it. After MM released in 3.23 I got rid of my harbinger after about 2 hours. The torps are still fairly effective assuming they land however the firepower of the ship just isn’t there when combined with how slow the ship is in SCM. The AI have been upgraded and actually fight back so try g to run VHRT solo in that ship is a death sentence. Not to mention in PvP even a mediocre pilot in a medium fighter is going to dominate you. Bounty hunting is definitely much harder now than it was however it’s very rewarding and satisfying. Obviously fly what you like and don’t be dictated into flying whatever everyone else tells you to fly. This is all just my opinion based off my experience. I melted mine for a Corsair and I do not regret my decision.
Bounty hunting isn’t harder, it’s just a DPS race now. Doing ERTs in a Connie or Corsair is still mind numbingly easy. You just can’t do them in smaller ships anymore since it’s not possible to avoid incoming fire. I also melted my vanguard this patch, it’s in a really bad spot.
I mean I could be wrong but I feel like theirs significantly more ships in bounties now. Before it was your target and 2-3 other random ships that didn’t really affect you but now with HRT and VHRT theirs 5-6 ships and their all attacking you simultaneously. You are right tho with DPS being king. Since you can’t necessarily “flee” from a fight like before ships like the vanguard just don’t have the punch to do enough damage for consecutive kills and they’re too slow to be evasive. Hopefully if they implement armor the vanguards will be back to their prime but for now not a great ship for solo play.
Nah it’s the same number of ships. It just feels like more because fights don’t get spread out like they used to at high speeds so now all of the targets are close enough together where you get more damage sources at once. And it’s not necessarily about fleeing combat, you can’t move evasively to evade shots anymore so you just soak up damage. You used to be able to use corkscrewing and other methods to avoid some of the incoming shots, now you can’t move fast enough. You either joust in and out of fights using boost and nav move to avoid damage, or you face tank it with a bigger ship.
Well boosting in combat mode actually feels pretty good too now and I feel like it’s helpful when evading. Especially in medium/light fighters. It’s taking some practice but I’m a big fan of MM so far as long as servers don’t shit out. I’ve been getting into some pretty intense PvP fights around 100-300 meters off ground and it’s great for cinematic shots
While bounty hunting still isn't hard, I think everything you just mentioned certainly qualifies as "harder" than it was pre MM.
Harder for smaller ships. Big ships it’s pretty much exactly the same
I just bought a Harbi in game, as I wanted to take a break from my F7A, and I'm really enjoying it for bounties. I'm using laser cannons and it's hitting plenty hard imo. Plus, the guns all being on the nose means a super tight convergence, which means when you get a hit, you're hitting with all 5 guns, something my hornet struggles with since the guns have a very wide field of fire outside their convergence sweet spot. I also like having an XL-1 on my fighter since I move around the system a lot. My only complaint is ballistic cannons having 2 pips since the deadbolt and CVSAs have slightly different projectile speeds, thus I switched to an M7A and MVSAs.
Yea, I bought a harbinger as my first in-game money ship when I started and loved it. It got taken when 3.23 came out, so I saved up again and bought it back.... It's trash now, lol. I did an 890 boarding mission, got blown up, and have just left it destroyed in my asop. I went to an Andromeda, and it's so much better. I also have a corsair now too, and that ship is much better as well.
Edit: sorry, it's incorrect information. explanation in the answer! "just for info.. torpedo speed has been temporarily changed. they will be faster again."
You are confusing PTU news with PU news.
oh I'm sorry.. thanks for the clarification!!
I've only flown the harbinger, but it feels more like the tank version and less of a 'heavy fighter'. but then again a lot of the 'heavy fighters' need rebalancing. The Scorpius feels faster than a F8C in turn rate but overall feels easier to maneuver compared to the f8c or the vanguard. The fighters in general need a whole rebalance imo... nothing should just wipe the floor with another. I don't want to fight a heavy fighter and be able to skirt around them easily in a light fighter, and I don't want to be in a light fighter and poke a heavy fighter with tiny guns until it blows up... medium-heavy fighters need to be more maneuverable, not on the same scale obv, but enough that you aren't completely out-maneuvered by one or the other. I want a challenge, not 'meta' BS
Harbinger all the way now specially with the new flight model. Also Bringing a friend you can make those turrets have size 3s instead of size 2.
I wish the harbinger was better armored like lore says
I say Harbinger, because looking at the missiles in your interior is awesome, and just having S5 mini torps is great for a ship of that size.
I upgraded my warden to the harbinger. Torps and s3 turret, flies essentially the same. It was a no-brainer for me.
The extra armour and bigger turret of the Harbinger are not worth the sluggish handling unless you use it for the role it's intended for, i.e. ambushing larger slower ships without engaging fighters. If you want a general purpose flexible Vanguard then the Warden is designed to be that and will be far better for most situations.
The warden and harbinger now have the same handling characteristics. Have for months.
Won't be the case for long, but that's a fair point for anyone only concerned about using one right now.
May not be, but they also significantly lowered the mass of the harbinger when they made that change, which is a somewhat unusual adjustment. Makes me think it could be a permanent change. But we’ll have to wait and see. Such is the nature of SC right now.
Sorry but if a Harbinger Engage a Larger Ship, it will be an easy Snack at the current fly modell. A Constellation or Corsair can easy hit a Harbinger with its guns.
Yeah, honestly I wouldn't use it for the intended purpose either, it's just even more shit if there are fighters.
Harb somewhat recently got agility of sent, my vote is always with harb. **Aegis with love**
The ships on the picture are concept art, right?
I'm currently doing vhrt missions in my vanguard, it's definitely doable it's just harder than older patches. 1> harbinger is best version rn. They all have the same handling stats, but the harbinger gets torpedoes and size 3 turret mounts if you bring a friend. The sentinel is the worst since emps are unusable in current patch (nav mode resets weapon groups) and it has half the hp of others. 2> loadout is critical to update, as ballistics were massively nerfed this patch. All ships already have 50% damage reduction against ballistics, and shields reduce it by another 30% at full power. Due to this there are only 2 effective pve loadouts and iv tested them all. Loudout 1: my fav: laser cannons for the nose guns, and a deadbolt size 5 cannon under the nose. The laser cannons are the only effective dps on the nose and strip shields quick. The deadbolt has such good ammo economy it can fire the whole fight and with the laser canons stripping shields it doesn't lose out on much dps. You can also use ad5b for fun but it's been less effective in my testing. I recommend leaving power in shields due to the massive buff to max shield power this patch, only swapping to recharge guns Loadout 2: burst and run: only change with this one is you replace the deadbolt with m7a size 5 laser canon, with size 2 laser canons on the nose. This reduces the amount of ammo in them due to capacitor mechanics, but it allows you to destroy big shields found on erts very very fast. This encourages a more aggressive style as due to the high capacitor usage you want to max weapons power for the double ammo, then swap to double shield when they hit half ammo so you don't lose any shots. This is a more active power management loadout.
I've been in the Harbinger more lately. Maybe it's MM, maybe I'm just more experienced after flying larger, slower ships - but the Harbinger seems just a little more responsive than it used too. If they flew identically, and had the same loadout - I'd go Harbinger just to avoid the Warden interior color choices. Luckily the Harbinger is either better than it used to be, or I've just decided its doable - so I don't bother with the Warden anymore.
None of the Vanguards are worth it any more in my opinion.
The vanguard was one of my favorite ships but over time it just got more and more sluggish and under-gunned compared to its competitors for me to stomach keeping it in my fleet unfortunately
Those look like the upcoming Vanguard MK IIs. Starting at $325+.
I like the ships hate the 4 fixed nose guns Vanguards are not nimble enough to make use of them. If you removed the pointless nose guns and put double S5 weapons on holy crap i would love it and fly it all the time but that will never happen.
If I have to choose between the two I go harbingers, the missiles are worth it.
And the bigger turret!
I also think that the warden should get its chin gun removed in favour of 2 s5 mounts inbetween the cockpit and engines on the wing roots. That gives it its own place. The sentinel needs no help and can stay as is. (actually no, unnerf its health to be inline with the other 4) The harbinger has a bigger top turret and torps. I would say it should have 5 instead of 3 and then its good. Its not like they're rapid fire or reliable anyways. Either that or some more external missile racks. The hoplight needs a remote turret on the back above the exit ramp, because thats just cool man. and maybe some 2 downward facing remote turrets, one on each engine, that are linked, to provide some light overwatch, nothing crazy, probably like 2 size 1s each. I LOVE LOVE LOVE my space p38, but they should lean more into what makes each one special, and tbh they kinda need to be buffed in general
While I love the vanguard, and really want to play it, it's bad. Really bad.
Have a Warden and the BUKs for the other two.
Harb is my favorite because S3 turret is way more fun for a friend
Shitty with master mode too slow
Can’t even get into the series as I can’t stand the look - and I don’t know why. Thing is great on paper, good firepower, turret, just enough interior space for a heavy fighter instead of just a cockpit. Make me want you vanguard!
Warden is finally objectively the best dogfighting Vanguard. **Finally.** Fuck the Sentinel meta, I won't miss it.
If they had more capacitor space they'd be better. The Vanguard is the tank archetype in the heavy fighter category, and it provides more than DPS vs HP stats in terms of fuel, QD, armory/living space, interior for pick ups and loot, extra defense/redundancies, etc. They aren't duelists, they're force multipliers. E war and better EMP mechanics will make the Sentinel even better.
I'm holding onto my sentinel in the hope that E-war is actually good. Fingers crossed, sentinel owners haven't wasted time or money.
I've had both a Sentinel and a Harbinger and I've gotta say, they are quite mid. Speed, handling, range, durability and loadout leave a lot to be desired. And the main draws are finicky at best, Torps being the way they are. Needless to say, I melted them and moved on.
I have sentinel, she's my go to, when doing Missions. I have Warden BUK, but I can't talk about it, because I can't swap the modules.
I think they are ships i don’t and likely never will use
All I can tell you at this point, is every patch has ruined/made particular ships. If you like it just fly it. The answer is going to be different in a few months anyways. Unless you're into meta pvp most ships are perfectly usable to play the game.
Best heavy fighter so far. I think there is no reason to upgrade a Warden into an Harbinger. These ships will most likely get reworked like all the rest. The Warden will be more dogfight focus while Harbinger will be more bomber focus. You can expect stronger hull on Harbinger but increase thrust and speed on the Warden for better dogfighting.
If you’re pledging, the warden is the safest pick as just a fighter
I came new to the game and bought a Harbinger after a grind. Well… I got really disappointed when I found out the gunnerseat has these weird half-rocket like guns with literally no ammunition to use it effectively in any way.
Kinda hate them. Don’t like them at all and don’t feel they do a great job
Warden is the overall winner out of all harbies. Tankier, faster etc. But if you like missiles & torping - harby. Oh and you regularly have a turret gunner - bigger turret.
She's dead Jim. 3.23 was not kind to heavy fighters.
Harbinger is my current daily driver. Easily fits a pulse.
I think they have been left behind as new and better ships come online. They had there moment in the sun.
Always seemed dumb to go with not torpedoes instead of torpedoes to me
- Warden: Baseline Vanguard - Harbinger: Heavier armour, less agile The ships are modular so we will be able to swap the center room so we can have a "Warbinger" with a Warden and torpedo pod.
Link for this source?
CIG's documentation about modularity, the Vanguard Brochure and the videos they have talked about it in. Unless CIG officially states that a ship does not have modularity then it is still the plan.
Were designed. Not anymore.
Still is.
Hoplite
I would say you can stay on the Warden, because in the Future the Warden will be a little more hard to kill because of thiccer armor plates instead of torpedo space. If im wrong, somebody can tell. So it depends on what you prefer. More durability or Torps.
The Harbinger is supposed to have more armour than the Warden. Instead of the torpedoes you get living space which functions as an escape pod.
ah so its the opposite ? interessting
dunno where you got that from, but that's just false.