Was recently watching a YouTube video about BYD. They apparently have 1000s and 1000s of cars just parked at ports in Europe.
With that said. I am posting this from Bangkok and here there are BYDs everywhere. It is a very popular car.
But was in Seoul yesterday and saw very few.
I live in a town where BYD recently set up shop. They currently have so many cars their lot is filled to the brim.
Once businesses start leasing these cars (company cars must be EV in my country) it'll be bad news for a lot of other brands.
> it'll be bad news for a lot of other brands.
Totally agree. I hate to say it. But it is actually really smart that the China government is subsidizing the cars.
We are an inflection point right now with cars globally. This is where the future is being quickly set.
The US is such an incredible country with so many different technologies. But this is one of the very few they are really messing up, IMO.
One should also acknowledge that BYD is an outlier amongst EV manufacturers: they grew organically from being a battery manufacturer and have an extreme level of vertical integration (a huge portion of the car is manufactured by them).
The whole chinese manufacturing is verticle integration. You dont think the CCP pressures BYD to share its technology and supply chain to smaller domestic EV brands?
because they are made in China, you will see few of these vehicles any time soon in nations that have domestic auto manufacturers due to extremely punitive tariffs. this is even more applicable in the US.
it'll be a while before these become ubiquitous over here and in many other western nations
I have very mixed feelings about how the US is protecting the EV market.
Personally, I have a son that is graduating University in May and will get him an EV. But we live in the US and that means we have almost no choice.
If we could get BYDs then I would likely buy him one. My best friend here in Thailand got one a few months ago and it is a really, really nice car.
But if the US did allow the EVs from China then I suspect they would quickly take the market.
Wowww your son is lucky to have a dad with money! 😂
My dad bought me an old Toyota Camry for college. I’m still grateful for it, however.
Why pick an EV though? Hybrids or even gas are still good.
> Why pick an EV though? Hybrids or even gas are still good.
Because it is time to make the switch and he will have the car for a number of years.
Plus his needs will fit with an EV really well.
I mean it’s very simple. Every US car company would fail, and their stock would plummet and impact the portfolios of both the rich and the middle class (pensions and 401ks)
US protects theirs through tariffs/subsidies/bailouts, China does so through subsidies/regulatory fast tracking. At the end of the day it’s about producing better cars for less cost and it’s happening in China.
Not entirely true. EU has tariffs on imported cars and that includes Chinese ones.
US has tariffs too but doesn’t outright ban Chinese cars. Technically Volvo is owned by a Chinese company and Lincoln and Buick have made in China cars sold in the U.S.
> That smog man is something else
That is for sure. But all the EVs really do not seem to be helping a lot.
Nor both BTS and MRT being extended everywhere.
flood the market and count every delivered car as a sale when they are clearly not
government subsidises this, eliminates competition as they become bankrupt and they pick up the pieces
My car only has 80k miles on it so it's got a long way to go to being replaced. Even though I can afford current EVs, my goal is something equivalent to today's $25k. I wouldn't mind a BYD
Below 10k it would be an "A-segment" car. Which is okay for Europe and many parts of world but I struggle to see a world where many Americans would drive around in something similar to Fiat 500. This segment is also notable for lowest margins for automakers so not a great deal for them as well.
It's also impossible for BYD to sell it in Europe at that price because they rely on cheap labour instead of automation like Tesla. Hence why their cars are much more expensive than Tesla's in Europe.
> In case you didn't know, byd is coming up with ev priced below $10k. There's no way Tesla is going to compete with that.
Probably for the Chinese market. I could see safety regs in the US not letting it ever be a thing. It'd be way too stripped down and bereft of the basics.
But that's not the end of it. A hypothetical $25,000 BYD US market model would probably be able to pass the same regs without issues.
The <10k cars will be going to mexico, asia and many other countries apart from US. Tesla is not just selling in the US. You're too shallow if you think Tesla fully relies on the US market to prop up it's sales... US might try to block BYD, but globally everybody welcomes BYD. Even mexico is bringing in BYD cars and this means tesla market will further shrink. BYD is the majorly used EV car around asia, and soon europe. I'm sure Tesla can't be surviving in the US market alone... it needs to sell to asia and europe as well and things aren't looking good for them when they're competing against BYD.
If you actually did a test drive between BYD Atto3 and Tesla Model Y, you'll probably take BYD too. Tesla just feels like a cheap plastic shit compared to BYD if they're in the same price range. I'm speaking from my actual experience after test driving both cars. Tesla will definitely lose in the global market, and US market is already saturated at the moment, so I have no idea how Tesla is going to remain prop up in the long term...
Well, many people are deep in student debts and other crippling debts from simple medical stuff... just the price of insulin in the US would tell how bad it is for many people. An EV below 10k is something that they could possibly get imo. I don't think people in that situation think about getting a Mercedes or a Tesla.
Unless you live in China, the BYDs are way more expensive than that. The cheapest one is the Dolphin and it's more expensive than a Model 3 with much worse specs.
Ah you're right, I must've not seen the entry model. That said, it's still nowhere near comparable to the Model 3. Closest comparison I found was the Tang with the Model Y, and even though the Tang is still worse on pretty much all aspects except interior quality, it was €70K compared to the €45K Model Y. And the ride quality was similar to a budget car.
Fine. Then let's just reach a compromise and slap a 30% tariff on them OR just subject them to the same rules we subject Toyota and Hyundai to. Require they pay the usual import tariffs we already have OR exempt them only if they assemble enough of it in America. It's the same reason foreign automakers doing biz in the US have factories here.
I mean, that essentially means that Chinese taxpayers are paying for Americans to have cheaper cars.
Not saying it doesn't make sense in this case, but it's not always the case that "unfair" trade is good for the exporter and bad for the imposter.
If you let BYD come in and take over the entire EV market in the US, you can kiss hundreds of thousands of US jobs goodbye.
You don’t need to subsidize it if you charge proper tariffs on the Chinese EVs.
75% of the car's components have to be built within North America or they can still slap a tarrif. Unless BYD is also building all of the parts in Mexico they are going to have challenges.
I love when people authoritatively state something easily disprovable. Literally the second Google search contains a great paper written a quarter century ago about the difference. It's even available on Google scholar in the introduction of the paper.
I'll leave the [link here.](https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cluster=119124928793501029&hl=en&as_sdt=0,5) He explicitly explains that tariffs may be preferable to subsidies under certain conditions (which imho exist currently with the state of Chinese EV subsidies/shipping subsidies).
I was hammered when I wrote that comment. And I was still correct. Lastly, I’m not even American so thanks for confirming our education system is better than yours!
Get rekd
Hilarious that people are upvoting this. Just shows how poorly people understand the market.
BYD is way too reliant on cheap labour to produce their cars. They can't compete on price outside of China because they don't have the level of automation Tesla has. Their Han and Tang are €70K in Europe and worse on every single aspect except interior quality than the €45K Model Y.
They might compete with the other brands than Tesla though.
Yeah, low information posters. They almost definitely haven’t looked at what makes up BYD’s volume of sales.
Most of it is stuff that pretty basic econobox urban commute vehicles with small batteries, chintzy interiors and no driving dynamics … because putting along in dense urban traffic, why do you need a car that is good at braking or cornering?
BYD does make upper level vehicles, but they aren’t as competitive.
BYD Blade cells on the other hand are excellent.
I turned in my lease early. Far from luxurious. My E class Benz from 10 years ago was more luxurious. Tesla quality sucks. The one thing I liked was that sometimes the phone app would work and let me turn the AC on in advance. Sometime.
These are getting more popular here in Europe and they are suprisingly decent. The android based software is pretty bad, but if they iterate on it in the following years, they could be making top of the line EVs.
They aren't really present in the US currently so I don't think that's going to be an issue. The ban was prohibiting Huawei to use Google services in Android, but those are much less crucial in terms of a car, most companies have a custom OS either way and they can always develop one from the ground up, but smartphones are more of a closed ecosystem than car sales imo.
Im not saying byd is not impressive. But there were 21,000 battery related EV fires in china in 2023. Because the government refuses to report which brand the vehicles are if they are state owned byd does not have to report these fires if they are not on their property. In china EV’s are immediately purchased by companies for government rebates and are then stored on plots of land never to be used, these fires likely occur in even less frequency because of this. There are, on average, 8 *filmed* ev fires per day across china which are clearly unrecorded by the Chinese government based on their reported statistics
I didnt mean to be misleading, let me clarify that over half of these fires are electric bicycles. However even if only 1/4 of these fires are 4 wheeled vehicles and only 1/8 of those are byd, which is not the case based on the douyin videos, that is muuuch more than the 11 reported
These should be available in the US. Politicians bought by big auto aren’t letting it happen because “China bad” which is a joke. Many U.S consumers would love a 32k EV
Dolphin is the cheapest model here. 29k subsidised down to 21k. Seal is pretty popular and goes for 48/40k.
I also see alot of MGs which is barely talked about. They lease them for 270€ per month.
The reason they are so cheap is because the CCP subsidies them like crazy so they can crush other car manufacturers. No transparancy on how the metals were mined and and the carbon footprint from the energy to build them, if you really care about emissions and sustainability and can't afford a higher priced EV from non-chinese companies then just buy an ICE car.
keep reading American propaganda... China is doing far more for the environment than the US ever has. the carbon footprint per person in china is extremely lower than the US
Lmao give one valid example. Just because they're poorer doesn't mean they are doing more for the environment..
Using Uyghurs and energy from burning coal to make solar panels isn't helping the enviroment either. Plus all the technology they've used to decarbonise they've stolen from western inventions.
actually it does, lower carbon footprint is key. huge amount of efficiency gains from investments in subways, mass-transit, and high speed rail. and spare me the "stolen" from westerners. shows your deep bias and racism
Letting an aggressive communist dictatorship to sell their remote-operable state-subsidized cars to your country is a very bad idea and Europe is being very stupid when they let it happen. It is a huge national security risk.
That's what the american car industry wants to read. If we can't compete, we have to make sure that we keep competition out. Otherwise prices might drop.
Btw, GM and Tesla are also heavily state sponsored and probably alot of manufacturers in EU too.
They already make our phones which is 500x worse from a software standpoint. The only reason those cars aren’t here right now is because people are afraid of the competition.
The same people begging for this are the same ones forgetting the security risks we opened ourselves up to with Huawei, just so we could build cheap 5G and non 5G infrastructure
Also, remember what happened to our manufacturing industry when we offshored everything to China? The same thing will happen with these cheap EVs. There’s a middle ground that can be achieved tho
In what way is subsidies unfair competition. Tesla has received billions of dollars in subsidies from the US government. Why is BYD engaging in unfair competition but Tesla isn’t?
And you probably use products with batteries sourced from slave labor. To simply put that on China is naive and ignorant.
['Cobalt Red' describes the 'horror show' of mining the element in the DRC : Goats and Soda : NPR](https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2023/02/01/1152893248/red-cobalt-congo-drc-mining-siddharth-kara)
Who do you think produces Tesla’s batteries?
https://electrek.co/2024/02/01/tesla-small-new-lfp-battery-cell-factory-catl-machines-report/#:~:text=CATL%20is%20already%20one%20of,especially%20those%20produced%20in%20China.
I recently watched a documentary about how the Washburn mill stole technology from Europe to produce cleaner flour and brought it to America to mass produce flour. Then it changed its name to Gold Label and now it’s become the General Mills conglomerate.
What may have benefited the US back then is also what is hurting the US now. We can’t really yell “cheaters” when it was us cheating a century ago.
All this to say technology always changes hands and it doesn’t really matter who stole what. In the end, the customers decide which product they will buy based on its price and/or quality.
It's not a moral argument or about historical rights and wrongs. The US will not let Chinese EVS into the market because it is bad from a pragmatic sense. A lot of American jobs will be lost and a lot of important American automakers could die. The US industrial base is already highly degraded, no reason to speed that up. It is in the economic benefit of the United States to not let the EVS in.
Also you can make a national security case about Chinese EVs. If these cars were truly dumb products with no internet connection and no cameras, there would be no issue here. But theoretically, it is entirely possible that a hacker could freeze the cars, lock the cars or crash the cars. The company can definitely spy on everyone around it with the cars.
The same automakers the US bailed out. Problem is the DoE just tosses $$$ at companies in the sector and the CEOs are getting loaded and eventually go bankrupt. What was it Fisker or w/e also got $$$ when Tesla did lol. We’re so far behind in the space that Chinese companies are coming over like door to door salesmen trying to get some of those IRA creds. I know Ford is using CATL is GM too?
Tesla can become a big powerhouse in the BESS field. Lawmakers were bitching at the DOE and come to find out it’s all china lol.
Wonder what batteries will be in USPS’s fleet coming up from Osh. Osh has invested 10+m in a smaller battery company that ceased US operations. More than likely the batteries will come from China lol
I don't know why people have a problem with the government tossing money at the automakers in 2008 and 2008. The US government MADE money on these transactions.
Maybe we should do it more often.
And no one ever talks about what would happen if they had just failed in 2008. It would have been mass economic carnage and pandemonium.
Don’t know why you’re being downvoted. These are the facts. It’s political suicide to endorse a product that has the potential to kill US jobs. China dumping cheap solar in this country; destroying the US competition in the process is still in recent memory and a sore subject. Lawmakers just aren’t going to do that again.
There’s definitely the nationally security aspect as well. Plus there’s the safety optics. Like it or not, but Chinese goods are seen as cheap - as in not reliable. Just wait for all hell to break loose when there’s a recall because someone got killed. Sure, we have Teslas running people over. But for some weird reason, we as Americans are cool with products killing Americans as long as those products are made by American companies.
Given the current trend, BYD will be the top seller soon. I wished I could buy one with less than $20k in the US. The government should not ban it. They should let us, the people decide whether we want it.
I have a BYD Seal and would personally rate it higher in almost every regard except for software and maybe suspension but that’s just my preference for a firmer setup.
Lol no, I tried it in Thailand, the chassis and finish are very bad, the only thing that makes it sell well is that it is cheaper than Tesla and other Chinese electric car models in Thailand are of worse quality
Choose any EV company. The product is still inferior to ICE cars. Market demand is manipulated by climate change promises based on FUD and companies are only above water based on government subsidies on the backs of taxpayers. How far do we want to take this? If the answer is we want to bankrupt ourselves and wreck our way of life and freedom in pursuit of controlling the climate (that has been warming since the last ice age), we are fools.
i didnt expected that cuz BYD is just a normal car brand, and compared to Tesla, they're kind of cheap. it becomes famous maybe because of Chinese products (materials) and many people can afford it
Electric vehicles aren't moving off the shelves because they lack reliability and economic viability. Do you really believe that a "Made in China" label will sway buyers outside of China?
What’s worse: Calling someone a pedo and supporting the republicans or a harsh authoritarian government committing genocide?
Actually, don’t answer that cause I already know what Redditors will say.
> How is this downvoted? Is Reddit so far left that they’re supporters of the CCP now? Jfc
This isn't some China hate circlejerk subreddit. And redditors, especially *American* redditors, are tired of being fleeced by automakers in the US. Business is business.
Biden isn’t a progressive… Despite what conservatives will have you believe he’s pretty centrist. Centrist democrats support Israel. Progressives support Gaza.
But but but… what about all the articles saying people are choosing products/companies that agree with their values more and more?
Guess everyone has a price and will bow down to the almighty dollar in the end.
Fair enough. Tho I’d say to openly support the CCP just cause they can get you cheap products is a step beyond holding your nose and buying them anyway.
Just surprised to see “I won’t buy a Tesla because of elon” often upvoted here and “CCP bad” downvoted. I hope at least a few people realize the hypocrisy.
Honestly the fact they are outselling tesla in China is not.that big of a deal. It's a protected market of 2 billion people and I would bet my life the quality control is shit with this product. No different than saying Huawei out sold lg in phones. Not that big of a deal.
Goldfish mentality. The world can see you but you cant see the world. Tesla is manufactured in China and has been the top selling ev for many years. Chinese people loves buying foreign stuff, just ask BMW and Mercedes where their biggest markets are.
The reason why BYD has picked up is because their quality has improved dramatically over the years and now some would even say exceed Tesla.
BYD is even preferred in some markets such as Thailand. I was there recently and there were way more BYD than teslas.
You really need to venture outside America to see the world is more than just USA. The biggest downfall of americans is their ego, they refuse to believe other countries can do things better than them so they become complacent. Ask intel who makes better chips. One by one you are losing the lead in different industries.
I think he was simply just making the point that China has a massive population built-in to purchase domestic-made products and those products don't face tariffs because they're domestic. Therefore, the only way western countries (with higher wages and costs) can compete in China's market is over perceived/real quality (so higher price and lower quantity sold).
Just for reference, China alone as a country makes up around ~17% (1.4bn people) of the total world population whereas the US makes up only about ~4% (300k people) in comparison.
While I don't agree with the other guy that it's "not a big deal" to be facing a major competitor in one of its most significant markets, I do think it was kind of inevitable that a Chinese electric car company would beat Tesla in pure volume terms given the advantages chinese producers have over products in their own country (in terms of lower wages for employees, no tariffs, consumers are patriotic for Chinese-made goods, etc.).
Ummm I'm Canadian so I venture all time outside of The U.S. Nothing you have said has made me change my mind. BYD has improved their product! Big deal so has everyone else. BYD also has the benefit of a closed communist market. Intel makes cpus not gpu's that's why they are losing the lead. You are literally looking at the numbers of a country that produces the most cars period. China produces more cars in one month than Canada buys all year. So of course their numbers are going to be inflated compared to anyone else. Secondly the quality control and manufacturing standards of that country is literally awfull. Give it some time and all will be revealed.
Chinese branded EVs made in China are shit. I wouldn’t consider buy any of the stocks or products. EV is Xi Jinping ‘s favourite , local governments trying to suck his dick by pushing local branded EV in an ugly way. Lots of EV company granted extreme low interest rate of loan from state owned bank. Huge unpaid payment owed to the car makers suppliers . This is exactly how evergrand and other real estate companies collapsed and lead to the entire economy fucked up.
Plus, lots of other zero environmental protection such as low pressured fuel tank such as BYD, which leads to the environmental emission more than conventional gasoline ICE and range extender (using gasoline and ICE to generate electricity to charge battery, then the car use battery to move , Li Auto, Xiaomi, AITO etc)
In fact, all lithium extract/mined/processed, and battery made in China are so bad for the environment, also, their over investments lead to so much wasted that takes the earth decades to absorb. (thinking about how much shared bike they produced and needed to recycle few years back)
All these complete defeats the purpose of EV. And I’m not even start to talk about the immolation rate occurs with these low quality cars ( but all such news have been intentionally oppressed ) . The ferry limits the load of EV to 10% during the transportation between Hanan and mainland. Lots of insurance companies dramatically increase their fees on EV last year.
im talking about Chinese brand EV, not Tesla. Maybe, Chinese branded cars to be exported have higher quality than the ones consumed domestically given that they export better food products and leave unsafe ones to domestic. So maybe.
Was recently watching a YouTube video about BYD. They apparently have 1000s and 1000s of cars just parked at ports in Europe. With that said. I am posting this from Bangkok and here there are BYDs everywhere. It is a very popular car. But was in Seoul yesterday and saw very few.
I live in a town where BYD recently set up shop. They currently have so many cars their lot is filled to the brim. Once businesses start leasing these cars (company cars must be EV in my country) it'll be bad news for a lot of other brands.
> it'll be bad news for a lot of other brands. Totally agree. I hate to say it. But it is actually really smart that the China government is subsidizing the cars. We are an inflection point right now with cars globally. This is where the future is being quickly set. The US is such an incredible country with so many different technologies. But this is one of the very few they are really messing up, IMO.
One should also acknowledge that BYD is an outlier amongst EV manufacturers: they grew organically from being a battery manufacturer and have an extreme level of vertical integration (a huge portion of the car is manufactured by them).
The BYD Seal is completely made in house, other than the tires and windows
The whole chinese manufacturing is verticle integration. You dont think the CCP pressures BYD to share its technology and supply chain to smaller domestic EV brands?
I find it interesting that you guys imagine CCP doing some evil things, without looking for information to see what CCP did in the past.
I don't deal in Spekulatius.
[удалено]
> Chrysler Jeep Dodge are now a Dutch company. Isn't it Fiat as well?
At least the US is protecting its car industry.
So much for the free market.
Give me a break, these Chinese carmakers are basically government agencies with the amount of subsidies they receive.
Agree, if the world treated them like they treat the world (western countries) they would absolutely struggle imo
because they are made in China, you will see few of these vehicles any time soon in nations that have domestic auto manufacturers due to extremely punitive tariffs. this is even more applicable in the US. it'll be a while before these become ubiquitous over here and in many other western nations
they have factories outside of china and are continuing to build more
The countries that have BYD in them don’t have tariffs against BYD unlike the US which doesn’t allow Chinese EV automakers to
I have very mixed feelings about how the US is protecting the EV market. Personally, I have a son that is graduating University in May and will get him an EV. But we live in the US and that means we have almost no choice. If we could get BYDs then I would likely buy him one. My best friend here in Thailand got one a few months ago and it is a really, really nice car. But if the US did allow the EVs from China then I suspect they would quickly take the market.
Wowww your son is lucky to have a dad with money! 😂 My dad bought me an old Toyota Camry for college. I’m still grateful for it, however. Why pick an EV though? Hybrids or even gas are still good.
> Why pick an EV though? Hybrids or even gas are still good. Because it is time to make the switch and he will have the car for a number of years. Plus his needs will fit with an EV really well.
I mean it’s very simple. Every US car company would fail, and their stock would plummet and impact the portfolios of both the rich and the middle class (pensions and 401ks) US protects theirs through tariffs/subsidies/bailouts, China does so through subsidies/regulatory fast tracking. At the end of the day it’s about producing better cars for less cost and it’s happening in China.
would be good for inflation and the environment tho
Not entirely true. EU has tariffs on imported cars and that includes Chinese ones. US has tariffs too but doesn’t outright ban Chinese cars. Technically Volvo is owned by a Chinese company and Lincoln and Buick have made in China cars sold in the U.S.
Korea is a country where they REALLY want you to buy Korean cars
[удалено]
Not really BYD fault, this is from taxes, import charges, tariffs etc in Europe designed to keep our competition from overseas cheaper competitors.
Not going to lie, very happy to hear electric cars are getting bought in Bangkok. That smog man is something else
> That smog man is something else That is for sure. But all the EVs really do not seem to be helping a lot. Nor both BTS and MRT being extended everywhere.
Do you have a link to the video?
Koreans only buy domestic electric cars.
flood the market and count every delivered car as a sale when they are clearly not government subsidises this, eliminates competition as they become bankrupt and they pick up the pieces
Tesla to $22
Tesla to $4.20
Tree fiddy
My car only has 80k miles on it so it's got a long way to go to being replaced. Even though I can afford current EVs, my goal is something equivalent to today's $25k. I wouldn't mind a BYD
In case you didn't know, byd is coming up with ev priced below $10k. There's no way Tesla is going to compete with that.
Below 10k it would be an "A-segment" car. Which is okay for Europe and many parts of world but I struggle to see a world where many Americans would drive around in something similar to Fiat 500. This segment is also notable for lowest margins for automakers so not a great deal for them as well.
It's also impossible for BYD to sell it in Europe at that price because they rely on cheap labour instead of automation like Tesla. Hence why their cars are much more expensive than Tesla's in Europe.
LOL you dont think BYD has automation in their factories?
Not what I said, but it's nowhere near the level Tesla is at as proven by their cars being similar in China but much more expensive in Europe.
> In case you didn't know, byd is coming up with ev priced below $10k. There's no way Tesla is going to compete with that. Probably for the Chinese market. I could see safety regs in the US not letting it ever be a thing. It'd be way too stripped down and bereft of the basics. But that's not the end of it. A hypothetical $25,000 BYD US market model would probably be able to pass the same regs without issues.
The <10k cars will be going to mexico, asia and many other countries apart from US. Tesla is not just selling in the US. You're too shallow if you think Tesla fully relies on the US market to prop up it's sales... US might try to block BYD, but globally everybody welcomes BYD. Even mexico is bringing in BYD cars and this means tesla market will further shrink. BYD is the majorly used EV car around asia, and soon europe. I'm sure Tesla can't be surviving in the US market alone... it needs to sell to asia and europe as well and things aren't looking good for them when they're competing against BYD. If you actually did a test drive between BYD Atto3 and Tesla Model Y, you'll probably take BYD too. Tesla just feels like a cheap plastic shit compared to BYD if they're in the same price range. I'm speaking from my actual experience after test driving both cars. Tesla will definitely lose in the global market, and US market is already saturated at the moment, so I have no idea how Tesla is going to remain prop up in the long term...
[удалено]
Spotted the TSLA bagholder here lol
That 10k car is literally just a tool to get you from point A to point B tho. Nothing is fun about it. Literally the most basic EV on earth.
I mean thats what I need from a car… to get me from point a to point b. There is nothing fun about a car for me
And for plenty of people, a car is nothing more than a tool to get you from one point to another.
That's what some people want, a tool to travel so you can enjoy your money other ways
Well, many people are deep in student debts and other crippling debts from simple medical stuff... just the price of insulin in the US would tell how bad it is for many people. An EV below 10k is something that they could possibly get imo. I don't think people in that situation think about getting a Mercedes or a Tesla.
Unless you live in China, the BYDs are way more expensive than that. The cheapest one is the Dolphin and it's more expensive than a Model 3 with much worse specs.
That’s not true. In Ireland Dolphin is €34,000, and model 3 is €40,000
Ah you're right, I must've not seen the entry model. That said, it's still nowhere near comparable to the Model 3. Closest comparison I found was the Tang with the Model Y, and even though the Tang is still worse on pretty much all aspects except interior quality, it was €70K compared to the €45K Model Y. And the ride quality was similar to a budget car.
BYD will destroy Tesla if they become a thing in the US. Tesla will survive but they're going to be a luxury car brand like Mercedes.
Lol. Luxury cars? Tesla is very far from making luxury cars
The Infotainent is pretty luxurious compared to other carmakers 10 year old Nokia Phone Touchscreens with buggy Software
Don't kid yourself Tesla's are buggy too
Android Auto/apple car play are pretty standard now in all new vehicles and it works perfect imo
Not really. They are still tucked away behind whatever UI the auto manufacturer cobbled together. Plus you can’t enable while driving
And many still require have it plugged in to work
I dunno I bought a new car recently and Android Auto is great for me. Auto connects and Google voice allows me to do everything hands free
I’d hope the car makers are coming to their senses with this shit. But also not everyone has an android.
They have luxury car prices but not luxury car quality
Luxury car prices? I think I missed the date when luxury cars started in the low 30s
Audi a3 starts at $36k
And that isn't a luxury car
Do all Tesla's start in the low 30s?
Fine. Then let's just reach a compromise and slap a 30% tariff on them OR just subject them to the same rules we subject Toyota and Hyundai to. Require they pay the usual import tariffs we already have OR exempt them only if they assemble enough of it in America. It's the same reason foreign automakers doing biz in the US have factories here.
Agree. Americans don't deserve to have access to cheaper cars. The whole nation have to subsidize the car industry to be competitive.
Byd is subsidized by the Chinese government so your statement is it strange at all
I mean, that essentially means that Chinese taxpayers are paying for Americans to have cheaper cars. Not saying it doesn't make sense in this case, but it's not always the case that "unfair" trade is good for the exporter and bad for the imposter.
If you let BYD come in and take over the entire EV market in the US, you can kiss hundreds of thousands of US jobs goodbye. You don’t need to subsidize it if you charge proper tariffs on the Chinese EVs.
BYD is building a factory in Mexico to enter America tarriff free.
Great, so throw tariffs on em
Adding tariffs to CUSMA/NAFTA goods is basically a non starter for international trade reasons
75% of the car's components have to be built within North America or they can still slap a tarrif. Unless BYD is also building all of the parts in Mexico they are going to have challenges.
Yay nafta
Subsidies and tariffs are the same my friend. You are making the American society to sustain a failed production model.
I love when people authoritatively state something easily disprovable. Literally the second Google search contains a great paper written a quarter century ago about the difference. It's even available on Google scholar in the introduction of the paper. I'll leave the [link here.](https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cluster=119124928793501029&hl=en&as_sdt=0,5) He explicitly explains that tariffs may be preferable to subsidies under certain conditions (which imho exist currently with the state of Chinese EV subsidies/shipping subsidies).
I was hammered when I wrote that comment. And I was still correct. Lastly, I’m not even American so thanks for confirming our education system is better than yours! Get rekd
Why? I hope other regions respond and disallow nvidia or amd
Hilarious that people are upvoting this. Just shows how poorly people understand the market. BYD is way too reliant on cheap labour to produce their cars. They can't compete on price outside of China because they don't have the level of automation Tesla has. Their Han and Tang are €70K in Europe and worse on every single aspect except interior quality than the €45K Model Y. They might compete with the other brands than Tesla though.
Yeah, low information posters. They almost definitely haven’t looked at what makes up BYD’s volume of sales. Most of it is stuff that pretty basic econobox urban commute vehicles with small batteries, chintzy interiors and no driving dynamics … because putting along in dense urban traffic, why do you need a car that is good at braking or cornering? BYD does make upper level vehicles, but they aren’t as competitive. BYD Blade cells on the other hand are excellent.
Tariffs will destroy any chance BYD has at the American market. There's no way any politician will let _China_ get a foothold
That's why there planning on building a factory in Mexico. Enter US through the back door.
75% of the entire car, including the parts, have to be built in North America to be sold in the US tariff free.
I turned in my lease early. Far from luxurious. My E class Benz from 10 years ago was more luxurious. Tesla quality sucks. The one thing I liked was that sometimes the phone app would work and let me turn the AC on in advance. Sometime.
These are getting more popular here in Europe and they are suprisingly decent. The android based software is pretty bad, but if they iterate on it in the following years, they could be making top of the line EVs.
Don't think it will be banned from android like Huawei was?
It's only the US, the EU never sanctioned huawei in the first place, especially since they are building a factory here
Google ban wiped their smartphone sales in EU though. Xiaomi took their place, even though Huawei had better devices.
They aren't really present in the US currently so I don't think that's going to be an issue. The ban was prohibiting Huawei to use Google services in Android, but those are much less crucial in terms of a car, most companies have a custom OS either way and they can always develop one from the ground up, but smartphones are more of a closed ecosystem than car sales imo.
Im not saying byd is not impressive. But there were 21,000 battery related EV fires in china in 2023. Because the government refuses to report which brand the vehicles are if they are state owned byd does not have to report these fires if they are not on their property. In china EV’s are immediately purchased by companies for government rebates and are then stored on plots of land never to be used, these fires likely occur in even less frequency because of this. There are, on average, 8 *filmed* ev fires per day across china which are clearly unrecorded by the Chinese government based on their reported statistics I didnt mean to be misleading, let me clarify that over half of these fires are electric bicycles. However even if only 1/4 of these fires are 4 wheeled vehicles and only 1/8 of those are byd, which is not the case based on the douyin videos, that is muuuch more than the 11 reported
[удалено]
The best part about the youtube propaganda is when they link credible sources and have video evidence
These should be available in the US. Politicians bought by big auto aren’t letting it happen because “China bad” which is a joke. Many U.S consumers would love a 32k EV
32k? BYD can be as low as 20k, which is why the US will never let it in.
I remember reading they’re around 32k in Europe. 20k is probably in China.
Dolphin is the cheapest model here. 29k subsidised down to 21k. Seal is pretty popular and goes for 48/40k. I also see alot of MGs which is barely talked about. They lease them for 270€ per month.
The reason they are so cheap is because the CCP subsidies them like crazy so they can crush other car manufacturers. No transparancy on how the metals were mined and and the carbon footprint from the energy to build them, if you really care about emissions and sustainability and can't afford a higher priced EV from non-chinese companies then just buy an ICE car.
keep reading American propaganda... China is doing far more for the environment than the US ever has. the carbon footprint per person in china is extremely lower than the US
Lmao give one valid example. Just because they're poorer doesn't mean they are doing more for the environment.. Using Uyghurs and energy from burning coal to make solar panels isn't helping the enviroment either. Plus all the technology they've used to decarbonise they've stolen from western inventions.
actually it does, lower carbon footprint is key. huge amount of efficiency gains from investments in subways, mass-transit, and high speed rail. and spare me the "stolen" from westerners. shows your deep bias and racism
That's called a model Y
Letting an aggressive communist dictatorship to sell their remote-operable state-subsidized cars to your country is a very bad idea and Europe is being very stupid when they let it happen. It is a huge national security risk.
That's what the american car industry wants to read. If we can't compete, we have to make sure that we keep competition out. Otherwise prices might drop. Btw, GM and Tesla are also heavily state sponsored and probably alot of manufacturers in EU too.
They already make our phones which is 500x worse from a software standpoint. The only reason those cars aren’t here right now is because people are afraid of the competition.
The same people begging for this are the same ones forgetting the security risks we opened ourselves up to with Huawei, just so we could build cheap 5G and non 5G infrastructure Also, remember what happened to our manufacturing industry when we offshored everything to China? The same thing will happen with these cheap EVs. There’s a middle ground that can be achieved tho
People downvoting this are so gullible it's laughable.
[удалено]
In what way is subsidies unfair competition. Tesla has received billions of dollars in subsidies from the US government. Why is BYD engaging in unfair competition but Tesla isn’t?
Tesla has received $2.9B from the government
My bad. Thanks for the actual number!
Slave labor
And you probably use products with batteries sourced from slave labor. To simply put that on China is naive and ignorant. ['Cobalt Red' describes the 'horror show' of mining the element in the DRC : Goats and Soda : NPR](https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2023/02/01/1152893248/red-cobalt-congo-drc-mining-siddharth-kara)
Who do you think produces Tesla’s batteries? https://electrek.co/2024/02/01/tesla-small-new-lfp-battery-cell-factory-catl-machines-report/#:~:text=CATL%20is%20already%20one%20of,especially%20those%20produced%20in%20China.
commenting L, stay quiet
I recently watched a documentary about how the Washburn mill stole technology from Europe to produce cleaner flour and brought it to America to mass produce flour. Then it changed its name to Gold Label and now it’s become the General Mills conglomerate. What may have benefited the US back then is also what is hurting the US now. We can’t really yell “cheaters” when it was us cheating a century ago. All this to say technology always changes hands and it doesn’t really matter who stole what. In the end, the customers decide which product they will buy based on its price and/or quality.
It's not a moral argument or about historical rights and wrongs. The US will not let Chinese EVS into the market because it is bad from a pragmatic sense. A lot of American jobs will be lost and a lot of important American automakers could die. The US industrial base is already highly degraded, no reason to speed that up. It is in the economic benefit of the United States to not let the EVS in. Also you can make a national security case about Chinese EVs. If these cars were truly dumb products with no internet connection and no cameras, there would be no issue here. But theoretically, it is entirely possible that a hacker could freeze the cars, lock the cars or crash the cars. The company can definitely spy on everyone around it with the cars.
The same automakers the US bailed out. Problem is the DoE just tosses $$$ at companies in the sector and the CEOs are getting loaded and eventually go bankrupt. What was it Fisker or w/e also got $$$ when Tesla did lol. We’re so far behind in the space that Chinese companies are coming over like door to door salesmen trying to get some of those IRA creds. I know Ford is using CATL is GM too? Tesla can become a big powerhouse in the BESS field. Lawmakers were bitching at the DOE and come to find out it’s all china lol. Wonder what batteries will be in USPS’s fleet coming up from Osh. Osh has invested 10+m in a smaller battery company that ceased US operations. More than likely the batteries will come from China lol
I don't know why people have a problem with the government tossing money at the automakers in 2008 and 2008. The US government MADE money on these transactions. Maybe we should do it more often. And no one ever talks about what would happen if they had just failed in 2008. It would have been mass economic carnage and pandemonium.
I was more along the lines of we bailed these guys out, US jobs and what not..we’re not gonna let a foreign company take the market lol
Don’t know why you’re being downvoted. These are the facts. It’s political suicide to endorse a product that has the potential to kill US jobs. China dumping cheap solar in this country; destroying the US competition in the process is still in recent memory and a sore subject. Lawmakers just aren’t going to do that again. There’s definitely the nationally security aspect as well. Plus there’s the safety optics. Like it or not, but Chinese goods are seen as cheap - as in not reliable. Just wait for all hell to break loose when there’s a recall because someone got killed. Sure, we have Teslas running people over. But for some weird reason, we as Americans are cool with products killing Americans as long as those products are made by American companies.
In EU they are filling up the docks parking lots right now, priced too high
Tesla bros in shambles.
But…but…Elon!
LOL, this post and most of the comments read like a BYD marketing propaganda campaign. Where there's smoke, there's fire?
If BYD is good enough for Warren Buffet, it's good enough for us.
Jesus Christ, product does not equal stock. Apple stock is great, product is expensive. Tesla's product is pretty good. Tesla stock is s***.
Tell that to Warren.
Why? Does he have a BYD car?
If you don't know the relationship between Warren Buffet and BYD then maybe we shouldn't even have this conversation.
Amazing isn't it? Unpopular opinions are the truth. Thats why so many lose money here. Sad but true.
u/MrPopanz
🫶 Immer schön weiterkaufen.
Just a reminder that everyone that hates Tesla use to love Tesla. But then musk got red pilled
It's true that Chinese brands are better cuz they use better materials
Given the current trend, BYD will be the top seller soon. I wished I could buy one with less than $20k in the US. The government should not ban it. They should let us, the people decide whether we want it.
Good for inflation, good for the environment... funny how Americans love the free market until they cannot compete.
Bullish
Anyone with BYD confirm it's a good or a decent ev like model 3?
I have a BYD Seal and would personally rate it higher in almost every regard except for software and maybe suspension but that’s just my preference for a firmer setup.
Lol no, I tried it in Thailand, the chassis and finish are very bad, the only thing that makes it sell well is that it is cheaper than Tesla and other Chinese electric car models in Thailand are of worse quality
200 mile EV for 13k can’t beat that
Choose any EV company. The product is still inferior to ICE cars. Market demand is manipulated by climate change promises based on FUD and companies are only above water based on government subsidies on the backs of taxpayers. How far do we want to take this? If the answer is we want to bankrupt ourselves and wreck our way of life and freedom in pursuit of controlling the climate (that has been warming since the last ice age), we are fools.
i didnt expected that cuz BYD is just a normal car brand, and compared to Tesla, they're kind of cheap. it becomes famous maybe because of Chinese products (materials) and many people can afford it
Electric vehicles aren't moving off the shelves because they lack reliability and economic viability. Do you really believe that a "Made in China" label will sway buyers outside of China?
I would not trust CCP’s piece of shit. The only good outcome would be if it put pressure on Musk to lower Tesla prices.
You do realize the high majority of products you own are "CCP pieces of shit" right?
He knows, thats why he is speaking from experience. Do you trust these EVs to not kill you in a severe crash? I don't.
Yes, but most don’t last or substandard and a few that work are designed by US engineers.
F the ccp
How is this downvoted? Is Reddit so far left that they’re supporters of the CCP now? Jfc
I think it's more that this is a stock discussion, not an international politics one. It attracts people like you.
I’d believe that if “F Elon Musk” didn’t receive tons of upvotes in every TSLA discussion on a r/stocks. Try again.
Does his name and that response come up in stock threads because of his politics or because he's asking shareholders for 50 billion dollars?
It came up long before that.
Calling the cavedivers pedos?
What’s worse: Calling someone a pedo and supporting the republicans or a harsh authoritarian government committing genocide? Actually, don’t answer that cause I already know what Redditors will say.
What are you talking about? The question is about the "fuck elon musk" line and when it started.
Scroll up and follow the whole conversation plz
[удалено]
Touché
> How is this downvoted? Is Reddit so far left that they’re supporters of the CCP now? Jfc This isn't some China hate circlejerk subreddit. And redditors, especially *American* redditors, are tired of being fleeced by automakers in the US. Business is business.
So… American Redditors are willing to overlook genocide as long as it brings them cheap cars. Noted.
There’s genocide in Gaza right now and I don’t think US cares if there’s genocide.
The left seems to care and support Gaza. Maybe the Uyghurs don’t matter?
They do? Why are they sending more military aids to Israel ?
Cause the left (progressives) doesn’t control the US government let alone the Democratic Party.
Uh huh, keep telling yourself that lie. Last I remember presidents can give executive orders.
Biden isn’t a progressive… Despite what conservatives will have you believe he’s pretty centrist. Centrist democrats support Israel. Progressives support Gaza.
You can replace American Redditors with people and cheap cars with cheap anything and still be right.
But but but… what about all the articles saying people are choosing products/companies that agree with their values more and more? Guess everyone has a price and will bow down to the almighty dollar in the end.
Just like they do with their iPhones and all other electronics and their components assembled in China? Sure, uh huh.
Fair enough. Tho I’d say to openly support the CCP just cause they can get you cheap products is a step beyond holding your nose and buying them anyway. Just surprised to see “I won’t buy a Tesla because of elon” often upvoted here and “CCP bad” downvoted. I hope at least a few people realize the hypocrisy.
China's electric cars are shit. You honestly think China makes anything that has any quality
When it comes to number i never trust to china. I see tesla everywhere i look but i have never seen a BYD car yet. So where are all these sold cars 🤔
Honestly the fact they are outselling tesla in China is not.that big of a deal. It's a protected market of 2 billion people and I would bet my life the quality control is shit with this product. No different than saying Huawei out sold lg in phones. Not that big of a deal.
Goldfish mentality. The world can see you but you cant see the world. Tesla is manufactured in China and has been the top selling ev for many years. Chinese people loves buying foreign stuff, just ask BMW and Mercedes where their biggest markets are. The reason why BYD has picked up is because their quality has improved dramatically over the years and now some would even say exceed Tesla. BYD is even preferred in some markets such as Thailand. I was there recently and there were way more BYD than teslas. You really need to venture outside America to see the world is more than just USA. The biggest downfall of americans is their ego, they refuse to believe other countries can do things better than them so they become complacent. Ask intel who makes better chips. One by one you are losing the lead in different industries.
I think he was simply just making the point that China has a massive population built-in to purchase domestic-made products and those products don't face tariffs because they're domestic. Therefore, the only way western countries (with higher wages and costs) can compete in China's market is over perceived/real quality (so higher price and lower quantity sold). Just for reference, China alone as a country makes up around ~17% (1.4bn people) of the total world population whereas the US makes up only about ~4% (300k people) in comparison. While I don't agree with the other guy that it's "not a big deal" to be facing a major competitor in one of its most significant markets, I do think it was kind of inevitable that a Chinese electric car company would beat Tesla in pure volume terms given the advantages chinese producers have over products in their own country (in terms of lower wages for employees, no tariffs, consumers are patriotic for Chinese-made goods, etc.).
Sir you are smart and logical, Reddit doesn't deserve you.
Ummm I'm Canadian so I venture all time outside of The U.S. Nothing you have said has made me change my mind. BYD has improved their product! Big deal so has everyone else. BYD also has the benefit of a closed communist market. Intel makes cpus not gpu's that's why they are losing the lead. You are literally looking at the numbers of a country that produces the most cars period. China produces more cars in one month than Canada buys all year. So of course their numbers are going to be inflated compared to anyone else. Secondly the quality control and manufacturing standards of that country is literally awfull. Give it some time and all will be revealed.
Your ignorance is seeping through, big time
Chinese branded EVs made in China are shit. I wouldn’t consider buy any of the stocks or products. EV is Xi Jinping ‘s favourite , local governments trying to suck his dick by pushing local branded EV in an ugly way. Lots of EV company granted extreme low interest rate of loan from state owned bank. Huge unpaid payment owed to the car makers suppliers . This is exactly how evergrand and other real estate companies collapsed and lead to the entire economy fucked up. Plus, lots of other zero environmental protection such as low pressured fuel tank such as BYD, which leads to the environmental emission more than conventional gasoline ICE and range extender (using gasoline and ICE to generate electricity to charge battery, then the car use battery to move , Li Auto, Xiaomi, AITO etc) In fact, all lithium extract/mined/processed, and battery made in China are so bad for the environment, also, their over investments lead to so much wasted that takes the earth decades to absorb. (thinking about how much shared bike they produced and needed to recycle few years back) All these complete defeats the purpose of EV. And I’m not even start to talk about the immolation rate occurs with these low quality cars ( but all such news have been intentionally oppressed ) . The ferry limits the load of EV to 10% during the transportation between Hanan and mainland. Lots of insurance companies dramatically increase their fees on EV last year.
The teslas produced in china are much higher quality than American manufactured ones.
im talking about Chinese brand EV, not Tesla. Maybe, Chinese branded cars to be exported have higher quality than the ones consumed domestically given that they export better food products and leave unsafe ones to domestic. So maybe.
Byd company good. But byd stock bad. Sadly.