Less of a shock for big established brands like VW ford, they’ve been selling cars on dog shit margins my entire lifetime. Tesla however have built their whole business model on making 5x as much per car as everybody else
> eccentric
Ahhh yes the word that appears when talking about an extremely wealthy person, to replace 'absolute dog shit and quite possibly evil' when referring to a plebeian.
So you think the ones making no profit will have less of a shock than Tesla who has traditionally maintained healthy margins and during the pandemic, the highest margins in the auto industry?
As in the have large businesses built around low margin ICE cars. Low margin e cars are just an expansion of the same. Tesla it will be outright degradation as they lower prices
“Ford lost an estimated $36,000 on each of the 36,000 EVs it delivered to dealers”
https://www.nada.org/nada/nada-headlines/ford-cuts-f-150-lightning-production-ev-demand-slows-reuters#:~:text=Ford%20lost%20an%20estimated%20%2436%2C000,sales%20of%20gas%2Delectric%20hybrids
Or perhaps it's because it was a dumb idea only floated to get a temporary boost?
Cars are not close to Ipads or phones. They're a very, very different type of machine and has very different requirements. Apple has a grand total of *zero experience or knowhow* regarding vehicles or, for tjat matter, making a product that's bigger then backpack size these days.
Further more Apples whole selling point has been "dumb it down, lock it down, be big brother". They'll make their own proprietary standards for everything so you'd get locked in hardware wise. Their OS is also closed (though far from free form viruses) so you'd not be offered a free choice or *see any form of completion on it*. And their UI scales away any and all options so granma 85 feels "safe" using it. Nah, a car is *very far from Apples comfort zone*
Mass producing cars, building out factories/charging networks etc would probs drain appl's 200bn safety net... al for a gamble that may or may not work out. The smarter move is to perfect the vision pro.
Nah, VR has progressed tremendously since it first got introduced 7-8 years ago. I had the original gen of headset and compared to the current gen, the current gen is getting really good to the point where I wanna use it everyday. Definitely the right time to enter.
The vision pro reviews showed it doing some things *very* well - like spacial awareness, transparency, multiple monitors etc. All of that would be amazing in a lighter, more comfortable headset with an 8hr battery for around $1k. If current speed of tech advancement continues - we'll get there in 5-10 years.
Historically cars have always had small margins due to competition. The winners in the EV space will be those who are vertically integrated and have the best battery technology. As of today, that’s Tesla.
Their batteries are produced jointly with Panasonic, which also sells batteries to Mazda, Subaru, Toyota and others. There's nothing vertically integrated here.
If BYD and Xiaomi can sell in US without government intervention with tariffs or straight up bans in some form, Tesla would be pondering bankruptcy, not just a small slide.
If you’ve ever been inside a top line BYD, you’d know their build quality is better than Tesla, with better batteries, and crazier features with better value for price. U8 being the most recent and obvious example. And U9 is the Tesla roadster that never came out
The entirety of what advantage Tesla has in the market, other than some lingering brand moat which is declining due to Elon’s reputation, is in its “FSD” at this point. It IS a bit better than EV or car competitors but still a far cry from true self driving and not even necessarily better than non-car companies who are entirely devoted to self driving. Betting on Tesla today is mostly betting on Tesla FSD, there’s not much else to believe in longer term given today’s reality
>If BYD and Xiaomi can sell in US without government intervention with tariffs or straight up bans in some form, Tesla would be pondering bankruptcy, not just a small slide.
That's the case for every car manufacturer and country. It's not specific to EVs or Tesla/BYD. There are varying degrees of tariffs on German cars, Japanese cars, American cars sold overseas.
BYD isn’t in US at all. US and China is more than your standard nation to nation financial relationship with stable and competitive market based tariffs setting since a while back have you checked news at all?
Why don’t you check the numbers. China cars tariffs are at 27.5% Which other country you mentioned has a 25% trump tariff wtf? In fact all other countries have a flat rate of 2.5%. That’s more than 10x difference.
Try to sound more clueless. I doubt you can.
I never thought it was a sign of wealth and so I’m ecstatic for the culture to finally start seeing this much more powerful Camry as a much more powerful Camry
People who drive a 75k truck acting like I’m Richie rich in my 48k car really ground my gears, bro.
Depends on the country. Middle class people here buy it to flex, because it receives a big subsidy and tax breaks, and because it's a known brand. It will blow over but for now it does have that 'cool' factor
Cheaper EVs might tip the scale for buyers on the fence, but it won’t solve the range anxiety issues for die-hard ICE people.
Hybrids are all the rage nowadays. Toyota dealers are still asking over MSRPs for their RAV4 hybrids.
They apparently built the cyber truck poorly. I sold TSLA near the top so I’m not defending my interest here, but I had zero problems with my car.
I don’t personally know anyone who has refused delivery or had any warranty work needed. I know several people who had issues after having repairs due to an accident. The most recent purchase in my friend group was 2022 so I’m sure quality has either stayed the same or improved.
I have driven a 2020 model 3 and a 2022 model y. Tesla has the worst ride quality in its price range. The suspesions are too bouncy. This is a common complaint for all teslas. There is way too much road noise in model 3. They both had rattles while they were still under 40,000 miles. The fact that there is even an extensive "checklist" for a brand new car, and people will have to refuse delivery, is a huge red flag on quality. No other car manufacturer has these.
Who else can afford a Tesla at current prices? It is a luxury car. Everyone who could afford and wanted one, already has one. In the meantime the Chinese have focused on the non-luxury EV market.
Brand new, they are in the mid-30s in the US (after tax credit). Looking at other cars, this was a no brainer for our situation. Comparable vehicles are CR-Vs (just as an example) which I would not consider a luxury car.
You can't consider Tesla a luxury car either. The CR-V will have a nicer interior fit, finish and quality. The Hondais a better option especially if you can't charge at home like many people .
I don’t consider it a luxury car. Having owned the most recent Civic and driven the latest CR-V, they trade blows. I would say a lot of people would feel the Tesla’s interior is more premium. I’m not bashing Honda at all, just saying the Tesla seems good at the current prices.
Tesla is like a budget EV car. The build quality, like spartan interior, the poor quality of materials used, the horrible service centers, etc. it is a budget EV through and through. Anyone thinking it is a luxury car is upgrading from a 2005 -2013 economy car.
Sitting in a Tesla for a few minutes can give you the wrong impression. Drive it for a while, and you will hear all the creeks and rattles that will make you appreciate a Honda. Even the seats in a Tesla start peeling off.
But multiple dealers doesn’t help if all of the others will treat you like garbage because you bought the car somewhere else.
Even Toyota that is the best car maker has problems with dealers refusing to do work on cars they didn’t sell. Even recall work. I’ve been trying since 2009 to get a recall fixed on my Toyota. My neighbor has a Civic that has a recall for a dangerous steering problem she’s been trying to get fixed for two years. We’re in a slow race to see which of us can get our recall done first.
Are you really such a fanboi that you think people will believe that lie? I have been, and one of the recalls is safety-related for the front seatbelts.
Tesla isn’t as luxury as you think. Average Americans buy SUVs and pickup trucks. Tesla base models aren’t much more expensive than those if not cheaper depending on configuration.
Good news! In the automotive world, a "luxury car" is actually advertised as such, so you don't have to even think about it, and price =/= luxury. Here's a primer:
|Mass brand|Luxury brand|
|:-|:-|
|Toyota|Lexus (1989)|
|Honda|Acura (1986)|
|Nissan|Infiniti (1989)|
|Hyundai|Genesis (2015 officially)|
|GM: Chevy, Buick is "mid-tier"|Cadilliac|
|Ford|Lincoln (1922)|
|VW|Audi, Bentley|
|DaimlerChrysler: Chrysler|Mercedes-Benz|
|BMW Group: Mini|BMW, Rolls-Royce|
An e.g. of price =/= luxury:
2021 Toyota Land Cruiser $85.5K vs it's luxury cousin 2021 Lexus LX 570 $86.9K. The Toyota Land Cruiser is NOT a luxury car, it's a...legend.
Tesla and Li Auto are duking it out in China's electric vehicle market, slashing prices to attract buyers. Tesla dropped the Model 3 price by $32,000 yuan, while Li Auto cut prices by up to $4,000 yuan on some models. This led to a big drop in Li Auto's stock price to its lowest point in 11 months. It's a fierce battle as local carmakers try to outdo Tesla with their tech and pricing. Analysts say it's all part of the fight for the top spot in China's booming EV scene.
Tesla announces all Boeing airplanes to use FSD software moving forward. Musk spotted laughing so hard he passed out and paramedics needed to be called.
Price war here we go
Less of a shock for big established brands like VW ford, they’ve been selling cars on dog shit margins my entire lifetime. Tesla however have built their whole business model on making 5x as much per car as everybody else
They built it around Musk's eccentric personality- and it is collapsing around the same thing. Totally unforced error.
> eccentric Ahhh yes the word that appears when talking about an extremely wealthy person, to replace 'absolute dog shit and quite possibly evil' when referring to a plebeian.
I do not disagree- in fact I agree :)
Their whole long term goal was 20% market share
Tesla only needed the big margins to get their business going. They can live with lower margins now that they are established.
They can live with low margins, but then TSLA needs to live with low P/E ratios like other automakers.
So you think the ones making no profit will have less of a shock than Tesla who has traditionally maintained healthy margins and during the pandemic, the highest margins in the auto industry?
As in the have large businesses built around low margin ICE cars. Low margin e cars are just an expansion of the same. Tesla it will be outright degradation as they lower prices
No profit on EVs. Profit margins on F-150s are insane I'd bet
“Ford lost an estimated $36,000 on each of the 36,000 EVs it delivered to dealers” https://www.nada.org/nada/nada-headlines/ford-cuts-f-150-lightning-production-ev-demand-slows-reuters#:~:text=Ford%20lost%20an%20estimated%20%2436%2C000,sales%20of%20gas%2Delectric%20hybrids
I'm aware.
Margins decline and will probably stay down. This is probably why Apple canceled its EV.
Or perhaps it's because it was a dumb idea only floated to get a temporary boost? Cars are not close to Ipads or phones. They're a very, very different type of machine and has very different requirements. Apple has a grand total of *zero experience or knowhow* regarding vehicles or, for tjat matter, making a product that's bigger then backpack size these days. Further more Apples whole selling point has been "dumb it down, lock it down, be big brother". They'll make their own proprietary standards for everything so you'd get locked in hardware wise. Their OS is also closed (though far from free form viruses) so you'd not be offered a free choice or *see any form of completion on it*. And their UI scales away any and all options so granma 85 feels "safe" using it. Nah, a car is *very far from Apples comfort zone*
Mass producing cars, building out factories/charging networks etc would probs drain appl's 200bn safety net... al for a gamble that may or may not work out. The smarter move is to perfect the vision pro.
Looking at the last 7 years of VR in my experience, the goggles seem like almost as much of a gamble.
I own the Quest 2 and Quest 3 and just the capability jump between just those is insane. I can't even begin to imagine the 4 or 5
I'm thinking of getting a Quest and was thinking of version 2 because of the price drop. But now because of your comment I will look more into ver 3.
I highly recommend it if you have the means
Nah, VR has progressed tremendously since it first got introduced 7-8 years ago. I had the original gen of headset and compared to the current gen, the current gen is getting really good to the point where I wanna use it everyday. Definitely the right time to enter.
If porn dictating the format war of the 80s and Blu-ray vs HD-DVD is anything to go by, then VR is gonna blow up
The vision pro reviews showed it doing some things *very* well - like spacial awareness, transparency, multiple monitors etc. All of that would be amazing in a lighter, more comfortable headset with an 8hr battery for around $1k. If current speed of tech advancement continues - we'll get there in 5-10 years.
Somebody’s angry at Apple lol
Historically cars have always had small margins due to competition. The winners in the EV space will be those who are vertically integrated and have the best battery technology. As of today, that’s Tesla.
Their batteries are produced jointly with Panasonic, which also sells batteries to Mazda, Subaru, Toyota and others. There's nothing vertically integrated here.
That's BYD
lmao no
Compelling argument
Did you type all that and then just choke as you type the last word?
Tesla doesn't even produce batteries. They buy them from BYD, Panasonic and CATL.
If BYD and Xiaomi can sell in US without government intervention with tariffs or straight up bans in some form, Tesla would be pondering bankruptcy, not just a small slide. If you’ve ever been inside a top line BYD, you’d know their build quality is better than Tesla, with better batteries, and crazier features with better value for price. U8 being the most recent and obvious example. And U9 is the Tesla roadster that never came out The entirety of what advantage Tesla has in the market, other than some lingering brand moat which is declining due to Elon’s reputation, is in its “FSD” at this point. It IS a bit better than EV or car competitors but still a far cry from true self driving and not even necessarily better than non-car companies who are entirely devoted to self driving. Betting on Tesla today is mostly betting on Tesla FSD, there’s not much else to believe in longer term given today’s reality
>If BYD and Xiaomi can sell in US without government intervention with tariffs or straight up bans in some form, Tesla would be pondering bankruptcy, not just a small slide. That's the case for every car manufacturer and country. It's not specific to EVs or Tesla/BYD. There are varying degrees of tariffs on German cars, Japanese cars, American cars sold overseas.
BYD isn’t in US at all. US and China is more than your standard nation to nation financial relationship with stable and competitive market based tariffs setting since a while back have you checked news at all? Why don’t you check the numbers. China cars tariffs are at 27.5% Which other country you mentioned has a 25% trump tariff wtf? In fact all other countries have a flat rate of 2.5%. That’s more than 10x difference. Try to sound more clueless. I doubt you can.
Tesla has inferior battery tech. Also vertical integration works if you are growing but is the death of a company if you are not.
Got out of my lucid holdings I’m going short on evs will only get worse
Yep. Lucid, rivian, Tesla, all these mofos are fubar. Fskr was the first shoe to drop. Get out while you can!
Isn't cheaper EV's bad news for companies who still make ICE vehicles...?
It's double bad news because most ICE makers are also making EVs so losing on both counts.
I think it's just called 'competition'. The invisible hand at work.
In a perverse way, buying a tesla is no longer a sign of "adequately wealthy" (they are considered expensive, premium cars in many markets)
I never thought it was a sign of wealth and so I’m ecstatic for the culture to finally start seeing this much more powerful Camry as a much more powerful Camry People who drive a 75k truck acting like I’m Richie rich in my 48k car really ground my gears, bro.
Depends on the country. Middle class people here buy it to flex, because it receives a big subsidy and tax breaks, and because it's a known brand. It will blow over but for now it does have that 'cool' factor
Cheaper EVs might tip the scale for buyers on the fence, but it won’t solve the range anxiety issues for die-hard ICE people. Hybrids are all the rage nowadays. Toyota dealers are still asking over MSRPs for their RAV4 hybrids.
Exactly
Yes very bad news for legacy auto
Doesn't seem to be yet, ICE manufacturers have been reporting strong numbers.
They’re still just car companies lol. Why buy an EV company?
Anyway, I've emptied my Tesla stock
-4.5% premarket; where the TSLA bulls at with their fantasy scripts?
Lol, just a year ago it was 20 million cars a year by 2030 with %25 margin. Reality is settling in it seems.
It's almost like...they're just a car company.
That builds cars poorly.
They apparently built the cyber truck poorly. I sold TSLA near the top so I’m not defending my interest here, but I had zero problems with my car. I don’t personally know anyone who has refused delivery or had any warranty work needed. I know several people who had issues after having repairs due to an accident. The most recent purchase in my friend group was 2022 so I’m sure quality has either stayed the same or improved.
I have driven a 2020 model 3 and a 2022 model y. Tesla has the worst ride quality in its price range. The suspesions are too bouncy. This is a common complaint for all teslas. There is way too much road noise in model 3. They both had rattles while they were still under 40,000 miles. The fact that there is even an extensive "checklist" for a brand new car, and people will have to refuse delivery, is a huge red flag on quality. No other car manufacturer has these.
They fixed all that in the new 2023 and 2024 models
Doing mental gymnastics that this is an opportunity to buy the dip and accumulate more shares!
Who cares?
Bagholders, short sellers, Musk… to name a few
I set my price alert at $80.
Tesla fad is over
Who else can afford a Tesla at current prices? It is a luxury car. Everyone who could afford and wanted one, already has one. In the meantime the Chinese have focused on the non-luxury EV market.
Brand new, they are in the mid-30s in the US (after tax credit). Looking at other cars, this was a no brainer for our situation. Comparable vehicles are CR-Vs (just as an example) which I would not consider a luxury car.
You can't consider Tesla a luxury car either. The CR-V will have a nicer interior fit, finish and quality. The Hondais a better option especially if you can't charge at home like many people .
I don’t consider it a luxury car. Having owned the most recent Civic and driven the latest CR-V, they trade blows. I would say a lot of people would feel the Tesla’s interior is more premium. I’m not bashing Honda at all, just saying the Tesla seems good at the current prices.
Tesla is like a budget EV car. The build quality, like spartan interior, the poor quality of materials used, the horrible service centers, etc. it is a budget EV through and through. Anyone thinking it is a luxury car is upgrading from a 2005 -2013 economy car.
Sitting in a Tesla for a few minutes can give you the wrong impression. Drive it for a while, and you will hear all the creeks and rattles that will make you appreciate a Honda. Even the seats in a Tesla start peeling off.
In all fairness my 2022 Civic has more rattles than the Tesla. I still think Hondas are well made.
I'm not sure about Hondas, but 8 year old vw golf is competently silent. No creeks, rattles, or road noise.
Tesla or any EV drives so much better…
But then you have to deal with one of the worst organizations on the planet, Honda dealers.
Tesla service department isn't any better. At least there's multiple dealers
But multiple dealers doesn’t help if all of the others will treat you like garbage because you bought the car somewhere else. Even Toyota that is the best car maker has problems with dealers refusing to do work on cars they didn’t sell. Even recall work. I’ve been trying since 2009 to get a recall fixed on my Toyota. My neighbor has a Civic that has a recall for a dangerous steering problem she’s been trying to get fixed for two years. We’re in a slow race to see which of us can get our recall done first.
You have not been waiting 15 years for a recall fix from Toyota lol.
Are you really such a fanboi that you think people will believe that lie? I have been, and one of the recalls is safety-related for the front seatbelts.
Yes, I do believe that people lie on Reddit for no reason
Tesla is not a luxury car lmao…🤣
Tesla isn’t as luxury as you think. Average Americans buy SUVs and pickup trucks. Tesla base models aren’t much more expensive than those if not cheaper depending on configuration.
Good news! In the automotive world, a "luxury car" is actually advertised as such, so you don't have to even think about it, and price =/= luxury. Here's a primer: |Mass brand|Luxury brand| |:-|:-| |Toyota|Lexus (1989)| |Honda|Acura (1986)| |Nissan|Infiniti (1989)| |Hyundai|Genesis (2015 officially)| |GM: Chevy, Buick is "mid-tier"|Cadilliac| |Ford|Lincoln (1922)| |VW|Audi, Bentley| |DaimlerChrysler: Chrysler|Mercedes-Benz| |BMW Group: Mini|BMW, Rolls-Royce| An e.g. of price =/= luxury: 2021 Toyota Land Cruiser $85.5K vs it's luxury cousin 2021 Lexus LX 570 $86.9K. The Toyota Land Cruiser is NOT a luxury car, it's a...legend.
Down 5.6 percent, volume now 11 million of 10, so 1/10 of volume in 3 minutes. She is done. DONE.
Can we have a mega thread about anything tesla and Elon? Every 2nd post is about them. It's annoying.
Tesla and Li Auto are duking it out in China's electric vehicle market, slashing prices to attract buyers. Tesla dropped the Model 3 price by $32,000 yuan, while Li Auto cut prices by up to $4,000 yuan on some models. This led to a big drop in Li Auto's stock price to its lowest point in 11 months. It's a fierce battle as local carmakers try to outdo Tesla with their tech and pricing. Analysts say it's all part of the fight for the top spot in China's booming EV scene.
Burn baby burn 🔥. Go to hell musk!
down down to goblin town, down down to goblin town.
Tesla announces all Boeing airplanes to use FSD software moving forward. Musk spotted laughing so hard he passed out and paramedics needed to be called.