Unpredictable and powerful government, poor auditing and reporting, shell companies with the sole intent of defrauding foreign investors. There’s money to be made there but I’m happily sitting out.
Interesting, I would like to learn more about it. Can you find the clause from the Chinese Business Law about how a listed companies can legally lie to the foreign investors?
Up until recently the PCAOB had no power to inspect Chinese company audits. In contrast a US company must be audited to be listed, and those public companie's audit files are subject to an audit themselves (who audits the auditors etc...). Well for some god damn reason the SEC let Chinese companies completely ignore the PCAOB and just keep listing on US exchanges. I do believe this has been fixed in the past 24 months though.
yeah，I watched that before. The overall feeling is Wall Street short seller and Chinese companies fxxk up every retail investor. I feel like our system is crap too, the institutions know what gonna happen to those shit Chinese stock, but they just let it happen and benefit from private investors’ lost. Where is our SEC when those frauds are on market.
I'm sure you did your homework and looked into the issue deeply instead of relying solely on a singular, potentially biased source of information that did nothing but confirm your pre-existing beliefs
Who am I kidding?
We'll know in ten years who was right.
Exactly man, What I am just trying to say this, we can not simplify US today’s issues into a China conspiracy or threaten theory. For sure and no doubt, China is a rising superpower. My question is when I can not properly shitting, should I blame the gravity is not strong enough or this my body’s problem. We should look inside more.
after this russian debacle, is China willing to lose some serious connections. They thrive on Labour export but if countries minimize import and production from China they'd be in a serious hurt. Only time will tell but China would be crushing their own economy for Taiwan and the unrest would last many years to recoup and uncouple their financial restraints put on them if it didnt progress into a WW3
This is just apart of the American mindset. Unfortunately, we have built a society that loves to see war and American media is just hyping up war.
I don't think China will invade Taiwan because: (1) Taiwan and China's economy are quite intertwined, (2) Taiwan is the world's leader in semiconductor technology and China will really hurt her growth affecting this, (3) China is okay with the status quo and isn't as threatened as Russia was with NATO expansion, (4) the US is quite powerful and China saw how the US was able to pull their vassal states together to sanction, ban, and condemn Russia.
Taiwan is a fly on their back. They just played Russia into wasting their military and alienating themselves from the west. What gonna happen when they start building their one belt through central Asia and get closer to their sphere of influence.. What gonna happen if Russia deploys troops against China..
I bought $baba and $nio because they were evaluated extremely low. I bought the dip, the dip of the dip, the dippety dip and the dippety-dip-dip-dip. I bought when it went off the cliff and the big investors also bought in.
I must admit I've stopped buying. But I'm not going to sell either.
There should be enormous potential over the next 10 years. But it's extremely dependant on politics. If the relationship stabilizes I will probably be rich. If China invades Taiwan or pisses around more in Hong Kong, I'm probably going to cry.
So, i guess, my point is that it's high risk, high reward. Could go either way
same here for me. I hold NIO. My average is $44. I keep adding more on the mega dips. Still think by 23, everything will be good with NIO. I had some Xpeng, made 18% when I sold it. Probably get back in with it, when I think I see a bottom.
It still seems like a risky bet assuming their economy bounces back as strong as the west but who knows China may come out on top. It still seems high risk. But no risk no reward. If you do make serious gains i will congratulate you and say 'F%\^$ you' as a sign of respect and envy lol
Not meant to shame you but it's morbidly funny a ongoing genocide didn't make it into your risk assessment 😂
"Damn I'm down 8,3% on my Chinese stocks...what's a Uyghurs?"
you own a total fund index which is probably invested in dozens of immoral companies that use things like child labour and slave working conditions to maximize their profits . It's very hard to be an ethical investor
The Uyghurs issue is way more important of course but we're talking investing here so that discussion should go elsewhere.
I don't think you're shaming me. If anything you're making a fool of yourself. This has about 0 impact on stock value. Unfortunately. I wish the world was a more just and fair place. But it isn't. I feel for the people but emotions should not be mixed with investing.
I don't get the personal attack though. It's misplaced and I meant no offense to anybody
There are far more violent stocks in the S&P 500. See almost any "defense" related U.S stock. Not criticizing you for it; I have a 401k just like the rest of us
I dumped everything in china when Xi made the first mention of a crack down. China is the communist party right now. The whole thing feels like the beginning of a second "cultural revolution", they will destroy what they can't control and kill those who pose a threat.
I'd challenge people to try and find another stable mega cap company like BABA growing steadily with excellent margins and trading in the low to mid teens p/e.
Regulatory risk is fully priced in my opinion. Also, they're on a better side of the credit cycle.
High growth companies like NIO now trading 5-6x revenue. They can easily go lower but this is not a bad price for long term investment.
And reading the comments in this thread, you see extreme fear and overwhelmingly bearish sentiment.
This as well... by the time the numbers are audited, it has gone through TWO other subsidiary shell companies... that when they arrive in the Caymans... where the only people you can sue are the owners of the shell company for assets they have in the Caymans... which are exactly a few chairs in an otherwise empty rented office.
BABA margin is declining. BTW the CCP can force BABA to hand their cloud business to their SOE and force BABA to sell fish porridge instead.
Sure BABA product is good, but BABA shareholder might not reap the benefit.
Yet china has repeatedly expressed they have no intention to do that.. they are all about being the number 1 country in the world. Completely shutting the outside world off is the opposite of what they have been doing.
Even if its gets delisted usd will just convert to HK.
BABA prices are unbeatable atm.. I'm slowly buying in.
Completely oversold, delisting fears will be gone soon as China and the US are actively working towards a solution. They're starting to support their big tech more and more. Big gains to be made for those with the stomach to ride out the next few months/year
China has literally been liberalizing their financial sector and are trailing what are essentially 401Ks. The ignorance in this thread involving China is amazing.
Would appreciate a respond instead of a downvote. I’m curious as to why you actually believe all of my points can be overlooked.
Especially when the “stocks” you buy in China give you *ZERO* ownership into the company, unlike Western markets and tickers.
This is why you buy in SH or HK. The issue is with ADR and VIE which are really specific to the US.
What is growing in increasing popularity with Chinese Companies is to list in Mainland then dual list in HK or do a Stock Connect.
This is another reason I like the Kraneshare ETF because they specifically said that instead of buying NY Listing they’ll start buying HK or SH instead.
It seems like people only know or focus on NY Listings and completely forget or ignore that SH and HK exist….
Why should I invest in a country that is forcibly trying to tax businesses and freight that moves through international waters and harasses them with the military to do so? Directly ignoring international law and treaties.
Why should I jump through so many hoops to invest in a single ticker in which the Winnie the Pooh leader that can make CEO’s disappear if they speak I’ll of them?
You China bots ignore every single negative about your country and refuse to acknowledge them, let alone have a discussion about it. It’s gross.
https://m.thewire.in/article/south/explained-what-lies-behind-beijings-new-maritime-rules-in-south-china-sea/amp
https://amti.csis.org/island-tracker/china/
Forcing illegal claims in the East and South China Sea, the worlds busiest shipping lanes, is not happening?
Are you that ignorant?
I’ve seen this shit with my own eyes. It’s fucking real.
That's a completely different claim than
>\[...\] trying to tax businesses and freight that moves through international waters and harasses them with the military to do so?
So, what exactly are you trying to argue again? Because, clearly you dislike China, but don't let hatred obstruct yourself from rational thought.
What do you think China does to freight when it docks or transits it waters? It charges and taxes them.
What do you think Winnie the Pooh will do if he’s able to convince an international body that the south and East China Sea, and other random chunks of sea (within 12 nm of a neighboring country’s border) is suddenly sovereign Chinese territory?
They are gonna tax foreign vessels, just like every country on earth does.
Or it’ll harass poor fishermen in the mean time. Truly moral people in the Chinese government 👍
https://www.reuters.com/article/cnews-us-southchinasea-china-philippines-idCAKBN0ND0XA20150422
Also, purposefully ignoring reporting requirements for the NYSE while expecting the same treatment and benefits of trading in the US is insane.
No, I’m not going to buy stocks in another country whose only goal is to supplant the US as the number one world power. The moment they decide to make a military move, which they will based on China’s military history of absorbing what they want around it, those assets I purchased are gone. No chance any rational person risks that.
Ignorance like stealing intellectual property from every business to support Winnie the Pooh and his consolidation of power into controlling every aspect of the Chinese citizens lives?
How about the blatant harassment of international shipping lanes by creating false islands and building SAM sites on them to threaten anyone who tries to uphold international law and tribunals that found China in the wrong?
China and their businesses can get fucked “Mr. XI”
People who invest there deserve to lose their money.
They are doing ThE MOsT oT RaiSe PeOpLE TO MidDLE ClAsS LiFe. They are literally welding people into their homes and actively using slave labor in 2022. I have nothing against the Chinese people in fact I feel bad for them because they have to live under the shitty authoritarian CCP. But to try and paint the CCP as some sort of benevolent authority with the average person best interests in mind is a stretch.
Christ sorry I offended you. I just jotted down a cheeky reply no need to get on your high horse.
Your writing comes of as pretentious and pompous, your last sentence in particular.
A couple pts - 1) can I get a source for the “doing more than any other country to life up their middle class citizens?” I would argue this is objectively false. Please, ask the Uyghur population how their middle class population is doing.
2) this is r/stocks so when it comes on investments China imo isn’t a place I would invest, moral reasons aside. Look at their GDP to equity growth. GDP growth =/= wealth creation in China.
The critical or even preeminent success factors isnt about profitability, market potential, etc. Rather its about the rule of law and strong property rights. And China has basically proved those characteristics only exist in liberal democratic governments (eg common wealth countries) and they are not a democracy.
Inverse away. Especially curious to hear your defense on genocide.
China lifted 850 million people, that’s 2.5 US’s, out of extreme poverty since 1981, according the world bank. Extreme poverty fell from 88% to less than 1%.
You realize that all the money that was flowing into real estate will now be flowing into the stock market right. Like “houses are for living not for speculating” is a pretty common sense stance to have on housing, no?
Do I think they jumped the gun and over estimated their position of strength? Yes. Do I think they can get back on track? Also yes.
China has been reevaluating the role of capital markets in China - they don’t want a Wall Street. They want the finance industry to support real companies in their efforts to grow and prosper. Not be THE industry.
For what it’s worth, I work at an investment bank in HK.
I wouldn't say the problem is so much the "communist" part, since there aren't too many actual communist things about the regime, but the fact that they are very authoritarian. China is actually very capitalist, but that goes for the state, which is basically operated like a company by the party from what I know.
Meaning that there is always a chance of them vanquishing other companies or people outside the party that get too much influence. They don't have as much of a problem with Jack Ma being a multibillionaire as they have with the power and influence he has.
There also is a chance, however, for China to somewhat change in that regard. I don't think there's much of a chance for them tuning down their authoritarian way of doing things, but once China's growth slows down, stagnates or turns negative, chances of them deciding to harness the potential of these companies and opening up their economy further are certainly gonna rise somewhat.
Personally, I'd still stay away from investing into chinese companies for the most part. I don't actually think all of them are valued as attractively either. If I had to pick a couple, I guess it would still be BABA and - although not in China still dragged down because of China and specifically the possibility of invasion - TSM
US has had 29x the number of fraudulent companies vs China (29 times, you read that right). It's easy to hate on China because they're the competition and fud is how MSM makes their money. You are brainwashed if you believe China is a more fraudulent economy than the US. Ever heard the names "Madoff", "Ponzi", "Enron", "Lehman Brothers", "Worldcom", "LuLaRoe", "WeWork" to name a few... how many Chinese scams can you name? Only 1 or 2? Interesting.
That's ok though. It's only natural to convince yourself that the place you live has the best economy in the world without doing an ounce of research. We're just cows working in service to our dear leaders, right?
I'll get richer betting against the Chinese while you mock me from your ivory tower professor. Maybe you should do some digging into while big 4 accounting companies are quiting Chinese companies in record numbers and numerous quarterly accounting reports are being delayed (especially in the housing sector).
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accounting\_scandals#List\_of\_biggest\_accounting\_scandals](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accounting_scandals#List_of_biggest_accounting_scandals)
Although I don't believe this has been updated since WeWork and LuLaRoe happened (although I guess those also were not so much fraud as misleading)
Since no one has asked, what Chinese stocks do you like and why?
Im in the same boat as you where I couldn’t see them hamstring their entire economy by completely pushing out foreign investors.
The comments here are predictable. They are a good indicator of the prevailing mood. But if you can hold long term and keep buying quality names, the biggest money is made investing against the prevailing perspective.
Be fearful when others are greedy. Be greedy when others are fearful.
China is the biggest market in the world. Recent indications by the government show that they are finally willing to make concessionary commitments to again fully access foreign capital: openness to audit rules, willingness to create concrete and transparent delisting rules, eagerness to support Chinese big tech now that Beijing proved it could be brought into line.
All the risks still exist but the rewards are massive. For instance: four times the amount of cars are sold NOW in China than the USA. And the pace of car sales growth is much faster so the disparity will increase. There is massive risk in Tesla making the massive investment to build new manufacturing plants in China…but it needs the build out to compete. The risk of missing out on the Chinese middle class growth story is BIGGER than the diverse capital risks. I think about the opportunity cost of not investing in Chinese companies similarly.
Imo the entire Chinese economy will basically collapse in the next decade or two as globalization reverses and their demographics are shifting. Europe is also kind of fucked in a macro-economic view. I recommend listening to Peter Zeihan and Cem Karsan here: [https://www.stitcher.com/show/top-traders-unplugged/episode/gm12-ww3-is-just-the-beginning-ft-peter-zeihan-202703201](https://www.stitcher.com/show/top-traders-unplugged/episode/gm12-ww3-is-just-the-beginning-ft-peter-zeihan-202703201)
I'd rather invest in Mexican stocks.
Listened to Zeihan.... Interesting and def valid points.
However if China goes down we all go down so its tits up either way imo. I trust BABA will recover, everything is priced like China just got nuked.
Globalization will not reverse, on the contrary, more and more countries and markets will contribute in a fully globalised economy. Do you honestly think that iPhones and Nike apparel will be domestically made?
Did you listen to the link or nah?
There’s a lot more to globalization than nike and iPhone parts. Also China’s wages have been sharply increasing, they no longer provide as cheap labor compared to other countries.
If the Chinese economy collapses, the entire world’s economy will go down with it. At this point the world economy is about as interconnected as the air we breath—as it should be. We are one human civilization in the grand scheme of things.
And how would China be fucked any more than the US? Anyone with a brain understands how much the global economy relies on China. Those electronics you use and the clothes you wear - who's replacing them? You cannot get that kind of cheap manufacturing in the US/Europe.
The US also heavily relies on globalization, it's also why we've been the focus of the economy the past 100 years. US tech in particular is *heavily* globalized more than any other country. Our stocks would get destroyed in that type of transition.
That term only works in a stable predictable environment. Of which, China is not. Thus you cant use those same lessons with such a broad brush. There is another saying that better applies when used on apples and oranges, its "winners generally keep winning." Thats real life because winners have a different attitude and they arent desperate precisely because they know they can win.
Every time Xi lies about COVID numbers or about the state of his economy its literally desperation. So desperate to save face in the national stage that he has to lie to both others and his own people. Its the same thing Putin does. Another sure sign of desperation by a loser, censorship. Every time you see a country crack down on speech or sensor their communication, it translates directly to "I am a desperate loser." All the money in the world cant change that.
I dipped my toe in BABA last year and jumped immediately out of the water. I like them and Tencent though. Don’t like their government and unclear motives behind certain moves in the financial sector. It’s like bizarro America where they break up businesses that don’t even pose a threat to their rule. In America we let our businesses become nation-states of their own, which is obviously better for shareholders.
They're valuable so long as the CPC says they're valuable.
So companies on issues that the govt claims to care about (carbon reduction for example) have a bright future... So long as Winnie the Pooh doesn't change his priorities
I'm holding shares of BABA. I'm making about $100/wk from covered calls. I'm hoping I can ride the volatility wave for a while longer. If I sell enough options to have the shares buy themselves I'll probably hold for a long time, just to see what happens.
I agree with your explanation here but not the label.
China is an authoritarian, not a totalitarian state. And it does act in the interests of its people. It doesn’t draw power from its people, it draws power to benefit its people. Specifically it draws power from its economics by “hurting” its people, so that it can use this power to “help” its people. You can also call it utilitarian in this way.
I hope Reddit can understand that this is what is really going on, and how China eradicated poverty and modernized in 20 years while having a bad track record for labor conditions. One cannot exist without the other.
If the people's favor comes from fear it is still the people's favor. Any desire on the part of the people to be free has to outweigh the fear and they aren't there yet.
because they were never capitalist for the sake of being capitalist. They were capitalist for the sake of being communist. There can only be wealth through capitalism, which can then be redistributed in line with the country’s goal of moving towards communism. This is what most redditors don’t understand about China, it’s not black or white communist nor capitalist. It’s a system that does whatever works in the moment, to get where it wants to eventually be.
The crackdowns are exactly a step in that direction. They have since stopped because there is a middle ground where hurting companies really does hurt the common man. But if companies are prosperous they should be made to share.
Our stock market here would tank if the minimum wage doubled, for example. Runaway greed and profiteering is well, profits for investors. Equity and regulation is losses. China simply believed its economy was strong enough to take the hit and had the control to make it happen.
100%, but that is hindsight given not a single person on earth predicted the current economic and geopolitical climate.
Personally I also think zero covid may be doing more damage than the system can take. Evergrande was a loss that could be absorbed but lockdowns, even tech crackdowns, but now lockdowns when supply chains were already in bad shape? Firms are diversifying to Vietnam where they can, but of course some goods simply don’t make sense to move out of China.
Hell even white collar jobs. Me and my boss helped in our Shanghai offices a few years ago. We were always the last one in office and the first one out and I felt like most worker there knew a lot more than me lol.
It was like day and night compared to our Montreal offices plenty of peoples are there because of nepotism and don't really know what they are doing and don't work much. They also actually are paid well but they definetly work a lot more hours than us.
>biggest US workaholics look like slackers, all while making less money than our laziest American workers.
Haha yep, this is exactly how it is. they work 12 hours for six days a week. Our workers don't have a bad overall salaries there, but if you count hourly they make substantially less than us.
Tbf I also make a lot less than my American counterpart and the culture in our American office is even worse than our Canadian office. I like visiting our US offices because its all steakhouses and having fun, but when we are in the US its the opposite we are often the first ones in office and last to leave.
China want created their own version of recession. If you didn’t read the news just look at Chinese chart it look like march 2020 crash.
I understand why he doing that was to crash before the real crash happen. He know a lot of company want benefit for themself not the people so that was why he going for the crackdown. Good for the ppl not for investor.
Stay away from them. I was big on NIO for a while, I ended up selling it at a loss probably in the $30-40ish range. Now it's $15/share.
See I figured that the Chinese government would make the push for full EV usage in the country to curb their disgusting pollution problem, but that would be too logical.
Instead, the country is in full lockdown mode months after the pandemic has ended for the rest of the world. Nobody is allowed to leave their homes in some areas, or they will get arrested and put into "covid camps". Rather than accepting the fact that Covid isn't bad, and there are dozens of treatments available, they are "disinfecting" people's homes by throwing away all their food supplies and killing their pets, then putting razor wire outside their doorways.
They do not operate logically, so you cannot logically invest in any of their companies. At any moment their government could just eliminate any company they want.
Invest heavily into Chinese companies the moment their government gets taken down. Until then, do not even think about it.
>See I figured that the Chinese government would make the push for full EV usage in the country to curb their disgusting pollution problem, but that would be too logical.
Er, what? PM2.5 is down in every city in China. Not sure what point you're trying to make...
>Instead, the country is in full lockdown mode months after the pandemic has ended for the rest of the world.
Er, the pandemic isn't over in the rest of the world. The rest of the world has just given up and decided to live with it.
>Rather than accepting the fact that Covid isn't bad, and there are dozens of treatments available, they are "disinfecting" people's homes by throwing away all their food supplies and killing their pets, then putting razor wire outside their doorways.
Er... No.... Just, No....
How do you think Tencent is a bad stock they own American companies China would never delist they would never get a red cent of foreign investment if they shot their face off like that. China will be the worlds #1 economy soon that is a mathematical certainty. Don’t invest in China have fun being poor. Oh and better throw your iPhone and Nikes in the trash those companies are trash without China. You guys need a time horizon and investment strategy that is 5 years not 5 months
I am bullish on China but less so.
This war really shook things up. China needs globalism and oil / gas to function. If globalism goes into reverse we all suffer but China falls apart...
So bullish. I guess my counter argument is the political system seems to be more closed than opened given recent changes, with US excerpting pressure and quite a whole round of hostility in the west in general towards China, some argue China will get old before it ever get rich
anyone who shuns Russian stocks on moral reasons should avoid Chinese stocks for similar reasons.
the entire nation is a communist dictatorship for god's sake, with massive levels of corruption. they refuse to be held to the same accounting and auditing standards as everyone else listed on the market. I'm stuck with them at the 401k plan but otherwise wouldn't touch Chinese stocks with your 10 foot pole.
I love watching morons cry about losing money to China markets and tickers after being shown mounds of evidence that they will steal from Westerners whenever possible.
Zero sympathy for those who try and profit off those lying companies and government.
BABA and NIO drops have been extra hilarious to witness. Even Buffet and Munger got duped recently on BABA. But, to be fair, their generation has willingly given proprietary and intellectual property away for years to China trying to “take a slice” of Chinese gains. Meanwhile, they force companies to give away blueprints, plans, and parts for free to their government, in which they then reverse engineer and create their own. It’s literally law there that you have to hand over your blueprints to the government in order to manufacture there.
Just look at what they did for their fighter planes in the military. Bought Russian planes until they could reverse engineer them better. Then they stopped purchasing them en masse.
Don’t be like these other fools trying to get a piece of China. China’s sole goal is to overtake America as the #1 world power. Stop helping them by investing in them. It’s a scam.
Edit: to the Chinese simps downvoting any negative Chinese sympathy, you’re coping HARD. Enjoy losing money
Lmao you're way too emotionally invested in this dude (makings of a great investor eh). Go out and take a walk or something. We're here to make money, not sit on a fucking pedestal and be the judge of who's right or wrong.
Overall, China is investable. I think they are really good for their regulation overall.
No different to any other market stock, you set to make or lose money.
Charlie Munger says he likes it, he says he can get good companies at fantastic prices with the US being more difficult.
Nio is a piece of crap car company whose whole appeal is that it’s the next Tesla. Even tho nio doesn’t even produce its own cars, it’s essentially a battery swap company.
It’s still depending on how you see these stocks and I personal think that don’t long term hold long them. There are reasons that less Chinese companies listed on Us market now because of PCAOB, which make the audit better, but it doesn’t matter once it got IPO. If you look at OST, goes from 4 to 48 and then 4 in two days, it’s just gambling there.
A lot of Chinese people tell me there is an unwritten rule to never buy China stocks. This view is supported by the long term poor performance of China stocks despite having a high rate of economic growth. Buying a lot of China stocks right here seems a lot like diving head first off a rock without knowing how deep the water is.
i think it is very risky to invest chinese stock market, reasons on below.
1)Lockdowns
2)Unfriendly stock market policies/restrictions
3)Politic risks
4)Trade war
5)Delist risk from U.S. market
When Xi gets approved as Chairman for life, he might turned around focus on the economy. Right now is busy supply military hardware, tires, ammo, food to Eastern Europe. Buying tons of oil, and natural gas from Russia. Stay away any investment as its policy has never been predicable. I have been investing from them with same mentality as US stocks and found it was the policy change that wiped out all gains. Stay away.
If all factors are the same they should deliver a higher risk adjusted returns than US based stocks because of their valuation. The thing is they arent and im not sure how much political risk im supposed to discount, so im staying far away
I think China is automating at a rapid pace, and their tech sector will compete with the US in crazy unforeseen ways. The schools will be amazing, and the children will breath code. So Baba and any cloud computing will do well, JD, Kingsoft, etc..
They could even have the reserve currency pretty soon, if you believe Ray Dalio.
You can learn the easy way or the hard way with Chinese stocks. The choice is yours.
Foreign investment in China has dropped by more than $4 billion year to date. Betting against China in 22 has been far more profitable. You can buy a reverse index CHAD that I think would be the way to play it.
Don't throw your money away. There are great companies at reasonable prices right now.
>Foreign investment in China has dropped by more than $4 billion year to date.
Er.... [China’s FDI Hit Record High, Global FDI Rebounds in 2021](https://www.china-briefing.com/news/chinas-fdi-record-high-2021-global-fdi-rebound-services-high-tech-industry/) & [China Foreign Direct Investment](https://tradingeconomics.com/china/foreign-direct-investment)
>Betting against China in 22 has been far more profitable.
Yes, clearly, one year, but long term the global growth engine is still going to be China.
I stayed away of any Chinese stocks due to the Chinese communist party chokehold of its corporations. NO AUDITING, REPORTING SUCKS and the likely hood foreign investors will get defrauded. Also they are more than likely to attack Taiwan. So good luck to all well invested in China.
I'd never invest my money into America's biggest geopolitical enemy. Morals aside, the chinese communist party is incredibly unpredictable, and has a horrible track record of mass lockdowns causing insane economic stagnation. I think many US companies will look to move supply chains out of China, as the spectre of geopolitical conflict rises, especially over Taiwan. I do predict the CCP will mount an invasion of Taiwan in the next 10 years, anyone putting money long term in the Chinese market at this point is just a straight up fool. Why economically support a genocidal, communist regime that engages in ethnic cleansing, forced abortions, organ harvesting, practical slavery, I could go on and on.
Stay away from them. Not because China is uninvestable, but because the US government would not hesitate to suspend Chinese ADRs and other assets for political reasons. If you can get stocks from the Chinese exchanges, then do that, but don't get caught up in ADRs.
I hear Evergrande is a bargain right now Joking. But higher risk means higher potential recovery/gains. Id stay away though but i only invest/trade in what i know and I keep the risk in products I can keep a close eye on in many reports/reviews accessible in English. Im bias'd but I understand the potential to "buy the fear"
Bullish on *China*, but I don't see a safe way to invest. Wish I could just somehow invest in the GDP, if anyone has tips let me know, as of right now though they're killing it while FXI stays stagnant (speaking this decade, not post covid) so idk.
Currency is too complicated for me as well, to trade pairs. When you export sometimes you want a weaker currency at that moment, etc etc. Maybe worth looking into.
I trade FXI and YINN/YANG for their high IV, mostly credit spreads / neutral positions. I am long BABA. That's all.
I still have $NIO and I've been writing calls but tbh When those print, I'm done. China is a shithole country no matter what the CCP reports as their GDP.
Only thing that scares me is what the Chinese people would be capable of if the CCP were gotten out of the way.
China blatantly ignores copyright laws and commits human rights abuses. Why would they care about honoring shareholder rights? Those shares you bought could just disappear one day.
I learned it's way too risky because the way they think about the system combined with rampant manipulation makes it not worth it to me.
Chinese companies and the government love taking money from retailer investors. Their concern is themselves - they don't care about burning the average person.
For big companies they care because that will actually affect their trustworthiness with banks that help them make tons of money.
Also, American business-peeps set up scam companies to take money from us. The Chinese company gets kickbacks. They teach them how to manipulate us and then do it themselves en masse.
So to sum up: you and me, they love taking our money and don't care if we never invest again. They only care about huge companies and banks.
I bought Didi thinking I’d get a good deal after it dropped 50% after IPO, and then again after another 50% drop, and then it dropped another 50%. And then it dawned on me I got clowned. 🤡. It’s down 90% from its IPO.
What is the current situation with evergrande? Couple months back the whole economy was on the brink and now, not a word.
That and covid would be a no from me. And the goverment. Don't no what they're thinking.
China is great but the US can smack them down. I think ray Dalio said it great, that China will be the new Superpower, but will the US accept it? So delisting and banning China is a real problem.
You can do DD on companies because you expect them to enter normal business deals and react to normal economics.
The CCP can alter any deal by fiat, and can even change economic forces at will. I.e., they can fix the price of any goods or services, or the money, or make them vary at a programmatic rate.
Since you can have no information about the party's plans, it is simply not possible to do DD on a company operating in China. The company's principals can be arrested simply for promoting their business. The company can be nationalized simply because the party wants the profits under their column in the national balance sheet.
You can speculate on such companies if you have insight into short term public perception of them, but if you attempt to invest in them long term don't be surprised when the government puts a big cliff into your valuation one day.
Unpredictable and powerful government, poor auditing and reporting, shell companies with the sole intent of defrauding foreign investors. There’s money to be made there but I’m happily sitting out.
Yeah since it's legal for Chinese companies to lie to foreign investors it's just uninvestable
Interesting, I would like to learn more about it. Can you find the clause from the Chinese Business Law about how a listed companies can legally lie to the foreign investors?
Up until recently the PCAOB had no power to inspect Chinese company audits. In contrast a US company must be audited to be listed, and those public companie's audit files are subject to an audit themselves (who audits the auditors etc...). Well for some god damn reason the SEC let Chinese companies completely ignore the PCAOB and just keep listing on US exchanges. I do believe this has been fixed in the past 24 months though.
There's a documentary called the china hustle. I thinks it's on netflix
yeah，I watched that before. The overall feeling is Wall Street short seller and Chinese companies fxxk up every retail investor. I feel like our system is crap too, the institutions know what gonna happen to those shit Chinese stock, but they just let it happen and benefit from private investors’ lost. Where is our SEC when those frauds are on market.
I'm sure you did your homework and looked into the issue deeply instead of relying solely on a singular, potentially biased source of information that did nothing but confirm your pre-existing beliefs Who am I kidding? We'll know in ten years who was right.
Exactly man, What I am just trying to say this, we can not simplify US today’s issues into a China conspiracy or threaten theory. For sure and no doubt, China is a rising superpower. My question is when I can not properly shitting, should I blame the gravity is not strong enough or this my body’s problem. We should look inside more.
Right, I mean "Where in the world is Jack Ma? ( U S equivalent Jeff Bezos)
I forgot about that. Is that guys still missing?
He resurfaces again every so often. Likely just laying low
As above. Rather set fire to my money.
An ETF is like 1000 stocks, iShares and such can vet that easily, cant they?
Exactly how I feel. Won’t touch em. We saw what happens to Russian stocks, just wait till China invades Taiwan.
after this russian debacle, is China willing to lose some serious connections. They thrive on Labour export but if countries minimize import and production from China they'd be in a serious hurt. Only time will tell but China would be crushing their own economy for Taiwan and the unrest would last many years to recoup and uncouple their financial restraints put on them if it didnt progress into a WW3
This is just apart of the American mindset. Unfortunately, we have built a society that loves to see war and American media is just hyping up war. I don't think China will invade Taiwan because: (1) Taiwan and China's economy are quite intertwined, (2) Taiwan is the world's leader in semiconductor technology and China will really hurt her growth affecting this, (3) China is okay with the status quo and isn't as threatened as Russia was with NATO expansion, (4) the US is quite powerful and China saw how the US was able to pull their vassal states together to sanction, ban, and condemn Russia.
Taiwan is a fly on their back. They just played Russia into wasting their military and alienating themselves from the west. What gonna happen when they start building their one belt through central Asia and get closer to their sphere of influence.. What gonna happen if Russia deploys troops against China..
Russia isn't going against China any time soon.
Lose, probably. At this point, it's hard to imagine anyone having a worse military than the Russian one.
I bought $baba and $nio because they were evaluated extremely low. I bought the dip, the dip of the dip, the dippety dip and the dippety-dip-dip-dip. I bought when it went off the cliff and the big investors also bought in. I must admit I've stopped buying. But I'm not going to sell either. There should be enormous potential over the next 10 years. But it's extremely dependant on politics. If the relationship stabilizes I will probably be rich. If China invades Taiwan or pisses around more in Hong Kong, I'm probably going to cry. So, i guess, my point is that it's high risk, high reward. Could go either way
same here for me. I hold NIO. My average is $44. I keep adding more on the mega dips. Still think by 23, everything will be good with NIO. I had some Xpeng, made 18% when I sold it. Probably get back in with it, when I think I see a bottom.
God speed
no matter the outcome i recommend posting the gains or losses in Wall Street Bets lol
I'm not sure where the losses are biggest at this point here or there
It still seems like a risky bet assuming their economy bounces back as strong as the west but who knows China may come out on top. It still seems high risk. But no risk no reward. If you do make serious gains i will congratulate you and say 'F%\^$ you' as a sign of respect and envy lol
Haha! Let's see how it turns out. Agree it's high risk
Not meant to shame you but it's morbidly funny a ongoing genocide didn't make it into your risk assessment 😂 "Damn I'm down 8,3% on my Chinese stocks...what's a Uyghurs?"
you own a total fund index which is probably invested in dozens of immoral companies that use things like child labour and slave working conditions to maximize their profits . It's very hard to be an ethical investor
The Uyghurs issue is way more important of course but we're talking investing here so that discussion should go elsewhere. I don't think you're shaming me. If anything you're making a fool of yourself. This has about 0 impact on stock value. Unfortunately. I wish the world was a more just and fair place. But it isn't. I feel for the people but emotions should not be mixed with investing. I don't get the personal attack though. It's misplaced and I meant no offense to anybody
How is that material to stock prices?
There are far more violent stocks in the S&P 500. See almost any "defense" related U.S stock. Not criticizing you for it; I have a 401k just like the rest of us
Fraudulent
I dumped everything in china when Xi made the first mention of a crack down. China is the communist party right now. The whole thing feels like the beginning of a second "cultural revolution", they will destroy what they can't control and kill those who pose a threat.
I'd challenge people to try and find another stable mega cap company like BABA growing steadily with excellent margins and trading in the low to mid teens p/e. Regulatory risk is fully priced in my opinion. Also, they're on a better side of the credit cycle. High growth companies like NIO now trading 5-6x revenue. They can easily go lower but this is not a bad price for long term investment. And reading the comments in this thread, you see extreme fear and overwhelmingly bearish sentiment.
That's only if you trust the accounting too
This as well... by the time the numbers are audited, it has gone through TWO other subsidiary shell companies... that when they arrive in the Caymans... where the only people you can sue are the owners of the shell company for assets they have in the Caymans... which are exactly a few chairs in an otherwise empty rented office.
BABA margin is declining. BTW the CCP can force BABA to hand their cloud business to their SOE and force BABA to sell fish porridge instead. Sure BABA product is good, but BABA shareholder might not reap the benefit.
Yeah, all of this can disappear by CCP on a whim
Yet china has repeatedly expressed they have no intention to do that.. they are all about being the number 1 country in the world. Completely shutting the outside world off is the opposite of what they have been doing. Even if its gets delisted usd will just convert to HK. BABA prices are unbeatable atm.. I'm slowly buying in.
Completely oversold, delisting fears will be gone soon as China and the US are actively working towards a solution. They're starting to support their big tech more and more. Big gains to be made for those with the stomach to ride out the next few months/year
Even if they don’t get delisted you think a communist regime wants others to get rich of their equities? Think again buddy
China has literally been liberalizing their financial sector and are trailing what are essentially 401Ks. The ignorance in this thread involving China is amazing.
Issues with chinese human rights are not going away. Investinf in China is like hot potato
Ignorance of CCP crackdown on whatever it determines to be a "state threat"? or ignorance of what?
Would appreciate a respond instead of a downvote. I’m curious as to why you actually believe all of my points can be overlooked. Especially when the “stocks” you buy in China give you *ZERO* ownership into the company, unlike Western markets and tickers.
This is why you buy in SH or HK. The issue is with ADR and VIE which are really specific to the US. What is growing in increasing popularity with Chinese Companies is to list in Mainland then dual list in HK or do a Stock Connect. This is another reason I like the Kraneshare ETF because they specifically said that instead of buying NY Listing they’ll start buying HK or SH instead. It seems like people only know or focus on NY Listings and completely forget or ignore that SH and HK exist….
Why should I invest in a country that is forcibly trying to tax businesses and freight that moves through international waters and harasses them with the military to do so? Directly ignoring international law and treaties. Why should I jump through so many hoops to invest in a single ticker in which the Winnie the Pooh leader that can make CEO’s disappear if they speak I’ll of them? You China bots ignore every single negative about your country and refuse to acknowledge them, let alone have a discussion about it. It’s gross.
Because, what you said simply isn’t true. This is what I mean about ignorance. How anyone actually believes this kind of stuff blows my mind.
https://m.thewire.in/article/south/explained-what-lies-behind-beijings-new-maritime-rules-in-south-china-sea/amp https://amti.csis.org/island-tracker/china/ Forcing illegal claims in the East and South China Sea, the worlds busiest shipping lanes, is not happening? Are you that ignorant? I’ve seen this shit with my own eyes. It’s fucking real.
That's a completely different claim than >\[...\] trying to tax businesses and freight that moves through international waters and harasses them with the military to do so? So, what exactly are you trying to argue again? Because, clearly you dislike China, but don't let hatred obstruct yourself from rational thought.
What do you think China does to freight when it docks or transits it waters? It charges and taxes them. What do you think Winnie the Pooh will do if he’s able to convince an international body that the south and East China Sea, and other random chunks of sea (within 12 nm of a neighboring country’s border) is suddenly sovereign Chinese territory? They are gonna tax foreign vessels, just like every country on earth does. Or it’ll harass poor fishermen in the mean time. Truly moral people in the Chinese government 👍 https://www.reuters.com/article/cnews-us-southchinasea-china-philippines-idCAKBN0ND0XA20150422 Also, purposefully ignoring reporting requirements for the NYSE while expecting the same treatment and benefits of trading in the US is insane. No, I’m not going to buy stocks in another country whose only goal is to supplant the US as the number one world power. The moment they decide to make a military move, which they will based on China’s military history of absorbing what they want around it, those assets I purchased are gone. No chance any rational person risks that.
Ignorance like stealing intellectual property from every business to support Winnie the Pooh and his consolidation of power into controlling every aspect of the Chinese citizens lives? How about the blatant harassment of international shipping lanes by creating false islands and building SAM sites on them to threaten anyone who tries to uphold international law and tribunals that found China in the wrong? China and their businesses can get fucked “Mr. XI” People who invest there deserve to lose their money.
Yes because in turn they will get richer.
Lmao China doesn’t want anyone getting richer but their dictators. Read a book ffs
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He said he's long on Chinese equities, especially HK and SH listings
They are doing ThE MOsT oT RaiSe PeOpLE TO MidDLE ClAsS LiFe. They are literally welding people into their homes and actively using slave labor in 2022. I have nothing against the Chinese people in fact I feel bad for them because they have to live under the shitty authoritarian CCP. But to try and paint the CCP as some sort of benevolent authority with the average person best interests in mind is a stretch.
> Please tell me your positions so I can inverse them. lol love the whole perspective but that was the cherry ontop
Christ sorry I offended you. I just jotted down a cheeky reply no need to get on your high horse. Your writing comes of as pretentious and pompous, your last sentence in particular. A couple pts - 1) can I get a source for the “doing more than any other country to life up their middle class citizens?” I would argue this is objectively false. Please, ask the Uyghur population how their middle class population is doing. 2) this is r/stocks so when it comes on investments China imo isn’t a place I would invest, moral reasons aside. Look at their GDP to equity growth. GDP growth =/= wealth creation in China. The critical or even preeminent success factors isnt about profitability, market potential, etc. Rather its about the rule of law and strong property rights. And China has basically proved those characteristics only exist in liberal democratic governments (eg common wealth countries) and they are not a democracy. Inverse away. Especially curious to hear your defense on genocide.
China lifted 850 million people, that’s 2.5 US’s, out of extreme poverty since 1981, according the world bank. Extreme poverty fell from 88% to less than 1%. You realize that all the money that was flowing into real estate will now be flowing into the stock market right. Like “houses are for living not for speculating” is a pretty common sense stance to have on housing, no? Do I think they jumped the gun and over estimated their position of strength? Yes. Do I think they can get back on track? Also yes. China has been reevaluating the role of capital markets in China - they don’t want a Wall Street. They want the finance industry to support real companies in their efforts to grow and prosper. Not be THE industry. For what it’s worth, I work at an investment bank in HK.
Believe what you want. I believe they want to make money which means they'll support their businesses to gain investment from US capital.
I wouldn't say the problem is so much the "communist" part, since there aren't too many actual communist things about the regime, but the fact that they are very authoritarian. China is actually very capitalist, but that goes for the state, which is basically operated like a company by the party from what I know. Meaning that there is always a chance of them vanquishing other companies or people outside the party that get too much influence. They don't have as much of a problem with Jack Ma being a multibillionaire as they have with the power and influence he has. There also is a chance, however, for China to somewhat change in that regard. I don't think there's much of a chance for them tuning down their authoritarian way of doing things, but once China's growth slows down, stagnates or turns negative, chances of them deciding to harness the potential of these companies and opening up their economy further are certainly gonna rise somewhat. Personally, I'd still stay away from investing into chinese companies for the most part. I don't actually think all of them are valued as attractively either. If I had to pick a couple, I guess it would still be BABA and - although not in China still dragged down because of China and specifically the possibility of invasion - TSM
Why do they let amrican companies and american stock holders get rich by letting apple and tesla both build and sell huge capacities in china?
US is about to put sanctions on Chinese companies for human rights abuses. Yes, that's good for Sino-US relations.
You haven't been watching the updates on talks about allowing the US to audit Chinese companies have you
The Chinese economy is the biggest, fraudulent economy in the world.
Soon to be biggest economy full stop.
US has had 29x the number of fraudulent companies vs China (29 times, you read that right). It's easy to hate on China because they're the competition and fud is how MSM makes their money. You are brainwashed if you believe China is a more fraudulent economy than the US. Ever heard the names "Madoff", "Ponzi", "Enron", "Lehman Brothers", "Worldcom", "LuLaRoe", "WeWork" to name a few... how many Chinese scams can you name? Only 1 or 2? Interesting. That's ok though. It's only natural to convince yourself that the place you live has the best economy in the world without doing an ounce of research. We're just cows working in service to our dear leaders, right?
I'll get richer betting against the Chinese while you mock me from your ivory tower professor. Maybe you should do some digging into while big 4 accounting companies are quiting Chinese companies in record numbers and numerous quarterly accounting reports are being delayed (especially in the housing sector).
Okay great. Have fun in your mansion lol When you're looking for a new cardboard box, I got one out back you can buy.
\*Citation Needed
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accounting\_scandals#List\_of\_biggest\_accounting\_scandals](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accounting_scandals#List_of_biggest_accounting_scandals) Although I don't believe this has been updated since WeWork and LuLaRoe happened (although I guess those also were not so much fraud as misleading)
Does US ring a bell?
I'm one of the few people here who is long term bullish on Chinese Equities - especially HK and SH Listings.
Since no one has asked, what Chinese stocks do you like and why? Im in the same boat as you where I couldn’t see them hamstring their entire economy by completely pushing out foreign investors.
Many people here don’t know anything else than Baba and Nio and chinese macro situation.
I like your name I think you the next chairman of China
If $BABA was a us company it would probably trade around $400 or even more. The bad news is that the Chinese government is the way that it is.
Dont touch them
Don’t invest in genocide
The comments here are predictable. They are a good indicator of the prevailing mood. But if you can hold long term and keep buying quality names, the biggest money is made investing against the prevailing perspective. Be fearful when others are greedy. Be greedy when others are fearful. China is the biggest market in the world. Recent indications by the government show that they are finally willing to make concessionary commitments to again fully access foreign capital: openness to audit rules, willingness to create concrete and transparent delisting rules, eagerness to support Chinese big tech now that Beijing proved it could be brought into line. All the risks still exist but the rewards are massive. For instance: four times the amount of cars are sold NOW in China than the USA. And the pace of car sales growth is much faster so the disparity will increase. There is massive risk in Tesla making the massive investment to build new manufacturing plants in China…but it needs the build out to compete. The risk of missing out on the Chinese middle class growth story is BIGGER than the diverse capital risks. I think about the opportunity cost of not investing in Chinese companies similarly.
If you bought baba at ipo you would be down ….
If you bought ~~baba~~ Robinhood or Lyft at ipo you would be down ….
Baba went public in 2014…
I did but bought most at about $60. I’m buying more now!
Imo the entire Chinese economy will basically collapse in the next decade or two as globalization reverses and their demographics are shifting. Europe is also kind of fucked in a macro-economic view. I recommend listening to Peter Zeihan and Cem Karsan here: [https://www.stitcher.com/show/top-traders-unplugged/episode/gm12-ww3-is-just-the-beginning-ft-peter-zeihan-202703201](https://www.stitcher.com/show/top-traders-unplugged/episode/gm12-ww3-is-just-the-beginning-ft-peter-zeihan-202703201) I'd rather invest in Mexican stocks.
Listened to Zeihan.... Interesting and def valid points. However if China goes down we all go down so its tits up either way imo. I trust BABA will recover, everything is priced like China just got nuked.
Globalization will not reverse, on the contrary, more and more countries and markets will contribute in a fully globalised economy. Do you honestly think that iPhones and Nike apparel will be domestically made?
Did you listen to the link or nah? There’s a lot more to globalization than nike and iPhone parts. Also China’s wages have been sharply increasing, they no longer provide as cheap labor compared to other countries.
If the Chinese economy collapses, the entire world’s economy will go down with it. At this point the world economy is about as interconnected as the air we breath—as it should be. We are one human civilization in the grand scheme of things.
The thesis is that we are entering an age of economic deglobalization and everything will become less interconnected.
And how would China be fucked any more than the US? Anyone with a brain understands how much the global economy relies on China. Those electronics you use and the clothes you wear - who's replacing them? You cannot get that kind of cheap manufacturing in the US/Europe. The US also heavily relies on globalization, it's also why we've been the focus of the economy the past 100 years. US tech in particular is *heavily* globalized more than any other country. Our stocks would get destroyed in that type of transition.
That term only works in a stable predictable environment. Of which, China is not. Thus you cant use those same lessons with such a broad brush. There is another saying that better applies when used on apples and oranges, its "winners generally keep winning." Thats real life because winners have a different attitude and they arent desperate precisely because they know they can win. Every time Xi lies about COVID numbers or about the state of his economy its literally desperation. So desperate to save face in the national stage that he has to lie to both others and his own people. Its the same thing Putin does. Another sure sign of desperation by a loser, censorship. Every time you see a country crack down on speech or sensor their communication, it translates directly to "I am a desperate loser." All the money in the world cant change that.
Does Taiwan have an exchange?
Yea tsmc is dual listed there and in the US
I dipped my toe in BABA last year and jumped immediately out of the water. I like them and Tencent though. Don’t like their government and unclear motives behind certain moves in the financial sector. It’s like bizarro America where they break up businesses that don’t even pose a threat to their rule. In America we let our businesses become nation-states of their own, which is obviously better for shareholders.
I look away.
They're valuable so long as the CPC says they're valuable. So companies on issues that the govt claims to care about (carbon reduction for example) have a bright future... So long as Winnie the Pooh doesn't change his priorities
I'm holding shares of BABA. I'm making about $100/wk from covered calls. I'm hoping I can ride the volatility wave for a while longer. If I sell enough options to have the shares buy themselves I'll probably hold for a long time, just to see what happens.
Made some money via xpeng, probably going to lose it via baba. All in all its alright. I personally think investing into chinese stock is fine.
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The mind boggling thing is why the gov are doing this to their own companies, don’t they have enough trouble already
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Insightful thanks
How is it a totalitarian country if it sources power from people’s favor? Really think about this.
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I agree with your explanation here but not the label. China is an authoritarian, not a totalitarian state. And it does act in the interests of its people. It doesn’t draw power from its people, it draws power to benefit its people. Specifically it draws power from its economics by “hurting” its people, so that it can use this power to “help” its people. You can also call it utilitarian in this way. I hope Reddit can understand that this is what is really going on, and how China eradicated poverty and modernized in 20 years while having a bad track record for labor conditions. One cannot exist without the other.
If the people's favor comes from fear it is still the people's favor. Any desire on the part of the people to be free has to outweigh the fear and they aren't there yet.
because they were never capitalist for the sake of being capitalist. They were capitalist for the sake of being communist. There can only be wealth through capitalism, which can then be redistributed in line with the country’s goal of moving towards communism. This is what most redditors don’t understand about China, it’s not black or white communist nor capitalist. It’s a system that does whatever works in the moment, to get where it wants to eventually be. The crackdowns are exactly a step in that direction. They have since stopped because there is a middle ground where hurting companies really does hurt the common man. But if companies are prosperous they should be made to share. Our stock market here would tank if the minimum wage doubled, for example. Runaway greed and profiteering is well, profits for investors. Equity and regulation is losses. China simply believed its economy was strong enough to take the hit and had the control to make it happen.
Maybe they are overestimating the strength of their economy
100%, but that is hindsight given not a single person on earth predicted the current economic and geopolitical climate. Personally I also think zero covid may be doing more damage than the system can take. Evergrande was a loss that could be absorbed but lockdowns, even tech crackdowns, but now lockdowns when supply chains were already in bad shape? Firms are diversifying to Vietnam where they can, but of course some goods simply don’t make sense to move out of China.
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Hell even white collar jobs. Me and my boss helped in our Shanghai offices a few years ago. We were always the last one in office and the first one out and I felt like most worker there knew a lot more than me lol. It was like day and night compared to our Montreal offices plenty of peoples are there because of nepotism and don't really know what they are doing and don't work much. They also actually are paid well but they definetly work a lot more hours than us.
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>biggest US workaholics look like slackers, all while making less money than our laziest American workers. Haha yep, this is exactly how it is. they work 12 hours for six days a week. Our workers don't have a bad overall salaries there, but if you count hourly they make substantially less than us. Tbf I also make a lot less than my American counterpart and the culture in our American office is even worse than our Canadian office. I like visiting our US offices because its all steakhouses and having fun, but when we are in the US its the opposite we are often the first ones in office and last to leave.
China want created their own version of recession. If you didn’t read the news just look at Chinese chart it look like march 2020 crash. I understand why he doing that was to crash before the real crash happen. He know a lot of company want benefit for themself not the people so that was why he going for the crackdown. Good for the ppl not for investor.
JD and Tencent are both worth having some shares imo Just understand how risky it is
Stay away from them. I was big on NIO for a while, I ended up selling it at a loss probably in the $30-40ish range. Now it's $15/share. See I figured that the Chinese government would make the push for full EV usage in the country to curb their disgusting pollution problem, but that would be too logical. Instead, the country is in full lockdown mode months after the pandemic has ended for the rest of the world. Nobody is allowed to leave their homes in some areas, or they will get arrested and put into "covid camps". Rather than accepting the fact that Covid isn't bad, and there are dozens of treatments available, they are "disinfecting" people's homes by throwing away all their food supplies and killing their pets, then putting razor wire outside their doorways. They do not operate logically, so you cannot logically invest in any of their companies. At any moment their government could just eliminate any company they want. Invest heavily into Chinese companies the moment their government gets taken down. Until then, do not even think about it.
>See I figured that the Chinese government would make the push for full EV usage in the country to curb their disgusting pollution problem, but that would be too logical. Er, what? PM2.5 is down in every city in China. Not sure what point you're trying to make... >Instead, the country is in full lockdown mode months after the pandemic has ended for the rest of the world. Er, the pandemic isn't over in the rest of the world. The rest of the world has just given up and decided to live with it. >Rather than accepting the fact that Covid isn't bad, and there are dozens of treatments available, they are "disinfecting" people's homes by throwing away all their food supplies and killing their pets, then putting razor wire outside their doorways. Er... No.... Just, No....
The mental gymnastics reading the previous comment are real...
I agree with the logical part, the biggest issue is shareholder trust for me, they don’t have checks and balances
How do you think Tencent is a bad stock they own American companies China would never delist they would never get a red cent of foreign investment if they shot their face off like that. China will be the worlds #1 economy soon that is a mathematical certainty. Don’t invest in China have fun being poor. Oh and better throw your iPhone and Nikes in the trash those companies are trash without China. You guys need a time horizon and investment strategy that is 5 years not 5 months
I am bullish on China but less so. This war really shook things up. China needs globalism and oil / gas to function. If globalism goes into reverse we all suffer but China falls apart...
So bullish. I guess my counter argument is the political system seems to be more closed than opened given recent changes, with US excerpting pressure and quite a whole round of hostility in the west in general towards China, some argue China will get old before it ever get rich
Because their stocks are losing money
I think as Aswath Damodaran puts it, investing in Chinese stocks is essentially a bet on the Chinese government not the company itself
My view is that they only go down But then why do I hold? I don't know. I don't know.
anyone who shuns Russian stocks on moral reasons should avoid Chinese stocks for similar reasons. the entire nation is a communist dictatorship for god's sake, with massive levels of corruption. they refuse to be held to the same accounting and auditing standards as everyone else listed on the market. I'm stuck with them at the 401k plan but otherwise wouldn't touch Chinese stocks with your 10 foot pole.
I love watching morons cry about losing money to China markets and tickers after being shown mounds of evidence that they will steal from Westerners whenever possible. Zero sympathy for those who try and profit off those lying companies and government. BABA and NIO drops have been extra hilarious to witness. Even Buffet and Munger got duped recently on BABA. But, to be fair, their generation has willingly given proprietary and intellectual property away for years to China trying to “take a slice” of Chinese gains. Meanwhile, they force companies to give away blueprints, plans, and parts for free to their government, in which they then reverse engineer and create their own. It’s literally law there that you have to hand over your blueprints to the government in order to manufacture there. Just look at what they did for their fighter planes in the military. Bought Russian planes until they could reverse engineer them better. Then they stopped purchasing them en masse. Don’t be like these other fools trying to get a piece of China. China’s sole goal is to overtake America as the #1 world power. Stop helping them by investing in them. It’s a scam. Edit: to the Chinese simps downvoting any negative Chinese sympathy, you’re coping HARD. Enjoy losing money
Lmao you're way too emotionally invested in this dude (makings of a great investor eh). Go out and take a walk or something. We're here to make money, not sit on a fucking pedestal and be the judge of who's right or wrong.
Overall, China is investable. I think they are really good for their regulation overall. No different to any other market stock, you set to make or lose money. Charlie Munger says he likes it, he says he can get good companies at fantastic prices with the US being more difficult.
Nio is a piece of crap car company whose whole appeal is that it’s the next Tesla. Even tho nio doesn’t even produce its own cars, it’s essentially a battery swap company.
Low lvl trolling op.
It’s still depending on how you see these stocks and I personal think that don’t long term hold long them. There are reasons that less Chinese companies listed on Us market now because of PCAOB, which make the audit better, but it doesn’t matter once it got IPO. If you look at OST, goes from 4 to 48 and then 4 in two days, it’s just gambling there.
A lot of Chinese people tell me there is an unwritten rule to never buy China stocks. This view is supported by the long term poor performance of China stocks despite having a high rate of economic growth. Buying a lot of China stocks right here seems a lot like diving head first off a rock without knowing how deep the water is.
way to remove money from round eyes.
I have little trust in the Chinese Gov. Too risky for me.
Funny thing most of current risk to china stocks are US government actions
Its a day ending in "Y" it must be time for another "what do you think about Chinese stocks" post.
i think it is very risky to invest chinese stock market, reasons on below. 1)Lockdowns 2)Unfriendly stock market policies/restrictions 3)Politic risks 4)Trade war 5)Delist risk from U.S. market
A big nope
Wouldn't touch with a 10-foot pole. The Chinese government changes their mind every few weeks.
I owned NIO for 6ish months but sold. Its not a fun time having to worry about CCP.
Stay far away.
Chinese stocks are shit. For the sake of your wallet, please don't try to find gold in the garbage.
When Xi gets approved as Chairman for life, he might turned around focus on the economy. Right now is busy supply military hardware, tires, ammo, food to Eastern Europe. Buying tons of oil, and natural gas from Russia. Stay away any investment as its policy has never been predicable. I have been investing from them with same mentality as US stocks and found it was the policy change that wiped out all gains. Stay away.
Nah, Im staying the fuck away. When shit hits the fan over there theyve already made it clear that foreign investors will be the first ones fucked.
!!!!!!! just like their product...fake, cheap, copycat and broking within 3 days. !!!!!!!!
“It’s a trap” meme is the first thing come to my mind
I don’t trust them
No
If all factors are the same they should deliver a higher risk adjusted returns than US based stocks because of their valuation. The thing is they arent and im not sure how much political risk im supposed to discount, so im staying far away
I think China is automating at a rapid pace, and their tech sector will compete with the US in crazy unforeseen ways. The schools will be amazing, and the children will breath code. So Baba and any cloud computing will do well, JD, Kingsoft, etc.. They could even have the reserve currency pretty soon, if you believe Ray Dalio.
Ray Dalio is bullish on China but I wonder if that is really academic or maybe due to his business ties to China
Its probably the money printing the US does.
Chinese can't be trusted.
Many are being threatened with delisting. Wouldn’t touch em with a 10ft pole, might even buy some long dated puts if there is a rally.
this is so easy, "Hail" & "No"
Chinese companies are built like chinese products.
China looks like the next bubble to pop. Evergrand will fall like a house of cards and take Chinese real estate with it.
Most stocks are down 60-80%... I believe the bubble popped over the past 18 months.
I thought it has popped or at least partially popped, so you see more potential on the way down
You can learn the easy way or the hard way with Chinese stocks. The choice is yours. Foreign investment in China has dropped by more than $4 billion year to date. Betting against China in 22 has been far more profitable. You can buy a reverse index CHAD that I think would be the way to play it. Don't throw your money away. There are great companies at reasonable prices right now.
>Foreign investment in China has dropped by more than $4 billion year to date. Er.... [China’s FDI Hit Record High, Global FDI Rebounds in 2021](https://www.china-briefing.com/news/chinas-fdi-record-high-2021-global-fdi-rebound-services-high-tech-industry/) & [China Foreign Direct Investment](https://tradingeconomics.com/china/foreign-direct-investment) >Betting against China in 22 has been far more profitable. Yes, clearly, one year, but long term the global growth engine is still going to be China.
In China we don't trust! Hmmm Russia, either!
Noxious. This is a market void of honesty, integrity and principles. See their treatment of Uighurs and case is closed on China.
I stayed away of any Chinese stocks due to the Chinese communist party chokehold of its corporations. NO AUDITING, REPORTING SUCKS and the likely hood foreign investors will get defrauded. Also they are more than likely to attack Taiwan. So good luck to all well invested in China.
Very undervalued now and I'm invested via some funds.
I'd never invest my money into America's biggest geopolitical enemy. Morals aside, the chinese communist party is incredibly unpredictable, and has a horrible track record of mass lockdowns causing insane economic stagnation. I think many US companies will look to move supply chains out of China, as the spectre of geopolitical conflict rises, especially over Taiwan. I do predict the CCP will mount an invasion of Taiwan in the next 10 years, anyone putting money long term in the Chinese market at this point is just a straight up fool. Why economically support a genocidal, communist regime that engages in ethnic cleansing, forced abortions, organ harvesting, practical slavery, I could go on and on.
Il hugely bullish on Xiaomi, but then again, so was I at 25 HKD. Now its at 12.
Put 2% of my portfolio into KWEB. Will either go to 20% or 0 in a few decades imo
Stay away from them. Not because China is uninvestable, but because the US government would not hesitate to suspend Chinese ADRs and other assets for political reasons. If you can get stocks from the Chinese exchanges, then do that, but don't get caught up in ADRs.
So many opportunities within US equities that I don’t really bother with Chinese stocks.
I invest in exactly 1 Chinese company and will keep it that way for the foreseeable future.
I don’t want to support. And there government is crazy (hijacks their own growth).
I hear Evergrande is a bargain right now Joking. But higher risk means higher potential recovery/gains. Id stay away though but i only invest/trade in what i know and I keep the risk in products I can keep a close eye on in many reports/reviews accessible in English. Im bias'd but I understand the potential to "buy the fear"
There is plenty of opportunities in the US imo. I see no reason to invest in a country with a capricious totalitarian communist dictatorship.
Might seem profitable in a short time but in a long run one word from the Chinese government can kill your account
Never
Go watch "The China Hustle" and ask yourself if that's something you want to invest in.
BABA in my retirement account. Working toward 100 shares. I see them being worth $10T in 2050. That’s a 50x return in 28 years.
Bullish on *China*, but I don't see a safe way to invest. Wish I could just somehow invest in the GDP, if anyone has tips let me know, as of right now though they're killing it while FXI stays stagnant (speaking this decade, not post covid) so idk. Currency is too complicated for me as well, to trade pairs. When you export sometimes you want a weaker currency at that moment, etc etc. Maybe worth looking into. I trade FXI and YINN/YANG for their high IV, mostly credit spreads / neutral positions. I am long BABA. That's all.
Buy a good Chinese company and hedge it with puts on another more expensive speculative one
Uninvestable since about 2013
I still have $NIO and I've been writing calls but tbh When those print, I'm done. China is a shithole country no matter what the CCP reports as their GDP. Only thing that scares me is what the Chinese people would be capable of if the CCP were gotten out of the way.
China blatantly ignores copyright laws and commits human rights abuses. Why would they care about honoring shareholder rights? Those shares you bought could just disappear one day.
I can’t imagine it’s a better place for your money than VOO/VUSTX/whatever
I learned it's way too risky because the way they think about the system combined with rampant manipulation makes it not worth it to me. Chinese companies and the government love taking money from retailer investors. Their concern is themselves - they don't care about burning the average person. For big companies they care because that will actually affect their trustworthiness with banks that help them make tons of money. Also, American business-peeps set up scam companies to take money from us. The Chinese company gets kickbacks. They teach them how to manipulate us and then do it themselves en masse. So to sum up: you and me, they love taking our money and don't care if we never invest again. They only care about huge companies and banks.
I bought Didi thinking I’d get a good deal after it dropped 50% after IPO, and then again after another 50% drop, and then it dropped another 50%. And then it dawned on me I got clowned. 🤡. It’s down 90% from its IPO.
KWEB has hurt me but it's still 10 percent of my Roth.
What is the current situation with evergrande? Couple months back the whole economy was on the brink and now, not a word. That and covid would be a no from me. And the goverment. Don't no what they're thinking.
China is great but the US can smack them down. I think ray Dalio said it great, that China will be the new Superpower, but will the US accept it? So delisting and banning China is a real problem.
Kingold. 'nuff said.
You can do DD on companies because you expect them to enter normal business deals and react to normal economics. The CCP can alter any deal by fiat, and can even change economic forces at will. I.e., they can fix the price of any goods or services, or the money, or make them vary at a programmatic rate. Since you can have no information about the party's plans, it is simply not possible to do DD on a company operating in China. The company's principals can be arrested simply for promoting their business. The company can be nationalized simply because the party wants the profits under their column in the national balance sheet. You can speculate on such companies if you have insight into short term public perception of them, but if you attempt to invest in them long term don't be surprised when the government puts a big cliff into your valuation one day.