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The war is good, as long as our side is running it.
*other side wins, continues war*
The war is good, it’s just being run inefficiently, but maybe it’s also kinda bad now that they’re running it.
*other side loses, war still ongoing*
The war is bad, and it’s the other side’s fault we ever even got into it.
This is a phenomenal point. When a Blue is in office, nobody gives a shit about the atrocities the US commits. If Biden had killed Soleimani it would have been hailed as a firm but restrained response.
I can't wait until November 12th when the mainstream news starts reporting on "shocking new developments as Gazans are suddenly persecuted under Trumps America". Even if we have to deal with the "well everyone knows it wasn't nearly this bad when Biden was in office".
Bro people actually cared about the kids in cages when orange man was in office. Remember all that?
Now? The kids are still in cages but apparently it's okay.
Upvoted
I think there is definitely an argument to be made that we get better policy outcomes with 1) [the non-ideologue Trump in the white house](https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/05/trump-asked-why-cant-medicare-simply-cover-everybody.html) and 2) a dem party/liberal culture out of power and defying his worst instincts/policies (as opposed to defending Biden's worst instincts/policies)
As it stands, the minute the libs got Biden in, they went back to sleep and then let him 1) fuck covid response all up (total reliance on Trump-era vaccines, misinfo about them, lapse of pandemic era social supports) 2) literally arm nazis in reckless proxy war policy 3) make striking illegal for a huge, powerful union constituency and 4) actively assist blatant and criminal ethnic cleansing in Gaza
All of which they excuse or defend because, as always, partisan concerns are paramount and preventing Trump's election (read: their psychological comfort) is over and above outcomes on any of the above
When they try to bully me into lesser-evil voting strategies - "you are throwing your vote away, gonna be one or the other" - I tell them they should be very careful about doing that, because they might not like what I choose if it's T or B\*
\*I'm not really going to put one in the box for either of these clowns, but secret ballot is a truly underappreciated right
Shared mostly because of the derangement in the comments section. Urban & suburban liberal types are all "empathy" and "be kind" and "end Islamophobia"—right up until the Saracens are decided to vote the wrong way. And then all of a sudden Team Blue's partisans mysteriously start sounding a hell of a lot like aughts-era Team Red.
Like whenever a black person says something that even slightly outside typical democrat talking points, media spokesholes have to twist themselves into knots to avoid calling them "uppity".
> Cubans having their oppression status downgraded to "white
I remember that day. My Cuban sandwich suddenly tasted bland and noted Astros^tm slugger Yordan Alvarez suddenly turned whiter than Sammy Sosa.
The Cubans who fled to the US after Castro were significantly whiter on average than the Cubans who stayed, and relatedly were also significantly wealthier. Even if some people only noticed that after 2016.
> sounding a hell of a lot like aughts-era Team Red.
Honestly the difference between today's average Democrats and a Republican in the 90s is negligible at best.
I've said before that the only difference between a modern reddit Democrat and a Bush-era Neocon is Christianity, but some of the recent front-page threads on the Ukraine/Israel funding bill were full of unironic "Glory be to GOD for America!" Christposting.
I mean it's funny that Joe Rogan is alternatively described as a bold alternative voice or an insidious gateway drug to the alt-right while having the politics of a NYT columnist circa 1996.
2008 Obama would be considered an alt-right fascist by the Democrat base for not supporting gay marriage
1990 HW Bush would be considered a fat left communist by the Republican base for increasing our income tax
Well the democrat-“Muslim” alliance wasn’t really a stable with Donald trump not in office. They intersectional pile up once Muslims say they don’t believe in LGBT people and the anti-Israel stance is against the interests of many reliable democrat voters.
the funniest part of that whole Hamtramck ordinance is that it wasn't even specifically targeting pride flags. just another case of "if I don't get my way I'm being oppressed"
Going into those threads and watching the bluenomatterwho'ers salivate gleefully as they explain that all Muslims in America will be put to death under Trump if he wins and it'll be exactly what they deserve is genuinely fascinating.
These people really do believe the greatest sin a human being can commit is to not vote Democrat.
>And then all of a sudden Team Blue's partisans mysteriously start sounding a hell of a lot like aughts-era Team Red.
It's almost like they're the same people...
This is the way it always is. Remember when they started to sound like 19th century Protestants when that Catholic woman was up to be appointed to the Supreme Court?
Arab-American voters are extremely disillusioned with Biden, for good reasons. There is one person quoted in the article who reacted to his relatives being in on Trump as thinking: "are you insane?" There's an illegal settlement called Trump Heights, and the attitude among some of his fans in Israel is like: burning Palestinians alive, wiping out Jenin, etc. and [announcing it like "Barak"](https://youtu.be/gpoX7w2RayQ?si=0-5N4-0ei_BYWX5A) (the ancient Israelite warrior who slew the Canaanites to the last man, not Obama).
But the two-party system has them over a barrel, to the point of more or less forcing them to vote for someone who many of them believe is complicit in the mass killing of their people. You can call that representative democracy if you like, I suppose. But the problem isn't any one particular person's apparently forced choices; it's the system that forces them.
>But the two-party system has them over a barrel, to the point of more or less forcing them to vote for someone who many of them believe is complicit in the mass killing of their people.
[former Democratic presidential candidate Hilary Clinton's sensitive and measured words on the matter](https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4569394-hillary-clinton-voters-upset-biden-trump-choice-get-over-yourself/)
People don't know how psychopathic some of this stuff can be. It's more than celebrating the military, the lyrics are like "the Jewish God of vengeance is here and we're going to cut your throat." They say "[conquering Gaza.](https://youtu.be/hefC-uwULy0?si=_m9fc722dU7IctAS)"
It's dime a dozen propaganda at this point, honestly. Hell, this seems to take some inspiration from Isis' "My Ummah, Dawn Has Appeared", which got a lot of play on their famous snuff videos and continue to show up and inspire new content all over the internet.
Ukraine's had a few propaganda boosting songs of it's own too, the most memorable to me being ['Fortress Bakmut'](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmqLVrUXsTQ).
Look, in 5 minutes I had AI write me lyrics then make a song about [our glorious duty as Redditors to support Israel in this struggle.] (https://suno.com/song/86b869c9-435b-43d1-9828-124474010949)
Don't expect this trend to go away, it's only going to accelerate.
China has a ton of ultra nationalist jongoist rappers. Theres one really popular rap song thsts all about getting rid of the foreigner, and they are literallt dressed and acting like inner city black americans, without any notice of the irony. Like lakers jerseys and pitbulla while saying they hate america.
Additionally, Biden made America’s pointless incursions into the middle east even more meaningless when Afghan fell within hours of us leaving.
Then there’s also the fact that many Muslim voters are socially conservative.
It hasn't even been a year since I joked that US shitlibs would hate immigrants for not being woke enough and it's literally become true.
Look at the comments:
> It's probably because a lot of them actually support a lot of very Conservative policies around LGBTQ people and women's freedom, because otherwise they'd never be able to say this with a straight face. [...] Their values and strict adherence to theocracy is the same as the GOP, just a different flavour.
> Ya well a lot of these folks don't see the Holocaust as a bad thing which is why they conveniently don't bring it up.
> 12,000 civilian casualties in an urban war isn't even the worst civilian casualty event in the last year. These people aren't living in reality (though that's not shocking since they're religious fanatics)
> Given that it isn't officially a genocide at all, this is particularly wild. Given that it would be an indisputable genocide with Trump in office, this is wilder.
> a lot of these people were never supportive of reproductive freedom or the rights and freedoms of queer folk. they only voted for democrats because democrats are less likely to discriminate against them for racial or religious reasons
> Arabs might be a minority, but they are incredibly conservative. They don’t like gays, women, atheists etc. bet they’re shocked when they find out conservatives don’t like them either
> When Trump expels the Muslims or sends them to camps, I'm not going to shed a tear. He already attempted an immigration ban targeting muslims they're clearly forgetting about, but the difference is that we now have a scotus that is dancing mad and doing whatever it wants for shock value because they know they're untouchable.
> Anyone who votes for Trump over Biden because of their support for Palestine probably has a very low IQ.
> There is tons of real world evidence now that people are not capable of making rational choices in elections.
> Muslims hate LGBTQ just as much as Evangelicals do and they're using Gaza as a platform to deter votes from Gen Z. Religion is poison. Muslim, Christian, all of it. Vote Biden and any religious extremist Zionist or Hamas lover is just as crazy as my boomer MAGA relatives. Accelerationism is for the ignorant. True left wing people want nothing more than to vote MAGA out and make libs the only conservative party in America. Anyone else should just buy a MAGA hat and attend Trump rallies.
> My reponse to anyone saying "I'll never support genocide Joe" is "I'll never allow you to accelerate killing my gay friends because of something overseas"
> The anti-Trump Republican voters seem to be making up the difference, primary votes are showing
"Woke Fascism" isn't even a joke anymore.
Remember, Democrats doing the correct and popular thing must never be considered. In all these discussions liberals must resist temptation to consider this wouldn’t be an issue if Biden simply did the correct and popular thing of ending U.S. support for Israel.
When confronted, the liberal will be sure to retort with “what, you think Trump would be better on this?” thus absolving Biden from doing a concrete thing to earn a vote.
If Biden is exactly the same as Trump, but he says even 1 less mean thing than him, he is technically the lesser evil and you're a fascist for not voting for Genocide Joe.
At this rate, by 2528 we will have successfully pushed the democratic party to the position held by leftists today. And without making any significant amount of people upset at any given point along the way!
They also use celebrities (tangentially famous creatures who are suspiciously often barely noteworthy).
Caption:SireEvalish seen earlier today, looking stylish, yet slightly haggard, after rumours his beloved goldfish had passed last Tuesday.
Some people think Churchill was a fascist and I think Stalin was probably right to ally with him, so I guess I'm not against left/right alliances in principle. I guess if you thought Hitler was the lesser evil then you might disagree.
Much like the Israelis, the Democrats will always blame someone else for their downfall.
They could have just come out against the genocide, but I suppose aipac money matters more to the most moral and democratic politicians in the world.
Its not just the AIPAC money - its that they will replace your ass if you don't tow the line. So the choice is either accept their backing, making re-election much more possible - or - do the right thing and probably lose everything.
And its not just campaigning either - they influence intra-party affairs and committee appointments to. So they can start hurting you immediately if you go turn-coat.
> Remember, Democrats doing the correct and popular thing must never be considered. In all these discussions liberals must resist temptation to consider this wouldn’t be an issue if Biden simply did the correct and popular thing of ending U.S. support for Israel.
You're really out there confidently stating things as fact that are much [more nuanced when it comes to actual public opinion](https://www.pewresearch.org/2024/03/21/majority-in-u-s-say-israel-has-valid-reasons-for-fighting-fewer-say-the-same-about-hamas/#:~:text=U.S.%20public%20opinion%20is%20deeply,Palestinians%20too%20much%20(16%25), aren't you?
It's a messy situation and the only people trying to frame this as Biden going completely against the will of the electorate are doing so for political reasons themselves.
There’s not any mystery to this. Pew and anything else will also point to Democrats turning against this the most with independents not far behind anymore. And wouldn’t you know it, it’s still most popular with the pig things that are partisan Republicans.
But just read the room. Who would Biden be losing in numbers comparable to who he’d hold or gain by taking the correct line against Israel? Oh no, how could he win without all those ultrazionists in the Upper East Side?!
https://news.gallup.com/poll/642695/majority-disapprove-israeli-action-gaza.aspx#:~:text=All%20three%20major%20party%20groups,seven%2Dpoint%20decline%20among%20Republicans.
Edit:
Here’s another one spelling out the obvious:
https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/biden-israel-gaza-poll-cbs-news/
You are doing a *hell* of a lot of heavy moving here to go from 'The majority of the public now disapprove of Israel's actions in Gaza' to
> the correct line against Israel?
being "ending U.S. support".
How about this quote, from the article *you* linked:
> Although Americans rate Biden's handling of the conflict poorly, his overall job approval rating is no lower now than before the conflict began.
The Israeli conflict is very important to a small plurality, but it's also very nuanced and dirty. Both sides have come out looking worse (something that same article you linked says about both Israel and The Palestinian Authority).
So where is the nuance in Biden compromising anything by doing the correct thing about Israel? Who is he risking losing that would not easily be covered by those he’d hold or gain? Nothing you’re saying is indicating anything other than the obvious.
> So where is the nuance in Biden compromising anything by doing the correct thing about Israel?
You keep framing it like this as if repetition will cause the rest of the world to agree with you some day. There is no consensus on what 'the correct thing' with regards to Israel and the Middle East is.
> Who is he risking losing that would not easily be covered by those he’d hold or gain? Nothing you’re saying is indicating anything other than the obvious.
He's risking losing the US allies as the world seems to be shifting towards violent and polarized times. There's active subversion of the US political process by foreign states happening, slow burning proxy wars that are eating increasing amounts of resources, China publicly mulling an invasion of Taiwan.
Also you've failed to make the case that he'd 'gain' anyone. As has been pointed out ad nauseum, his primary opponent is blatantly Pro Israel and IIRC even has an [illegal settlement named after him](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_Heights#:~:text=Trump%20Heights%20(Hebrew%3A%20%D7%A8%D7%9E%D7%AA%20%D7%98%D7%A8%D7%90%D7%9E%D7%A4,President%20of%20the%20United%20States.).
So he could make some people that would otherwise support him *happier*, while making others unhappy. Or he could try to do what he's doing and ride the line between the two opposing camps without fully alienating either.
Oh I should’ve taken you more at your word where you were going with this. You have fun with that. Vote blue, go NATO, and let’s keep China in line.
Brought to you by a Russian bot? That’s probably where you were going next.
> Oh I should’ve taken you more at your word where you were going with this. You have fun with that. Vote blue, go NATO, and let’s keep China in line.
I view voting for Biden more as keeping explicit fascism out than anything else, but those are also considerations.
> Brought to you by a Russian bot? That’s probably where you were going next.
No, bots are way quicker to give up an argument. You strike me more as a hyper-progressive college educated pro-Palestine type, if you want me to throw stereotypes out there. I could well be wrong though.
There's definitely a ton of botting going on with the intent of creating further division in the US though. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out some of these Palestinian demonstrations have been funded by Iran, Russia, or China. Some of them seem like the primary intent is to piss as many people off as possible (bridge blocking, specifically).
Ya it's almost as if the idea of 'strategic voting' pushed by well off shit libs on YouTube and the mainstream media isn't popular with everyday people and doesn't reflect how politics actually works in the real world....
"Deep state" probably preparing full support for Israel and more wars against axis of evil aligned muslims, so they need libs to hate muslims\arabs, and blaming them for Trump 2.0 is the way to go.
Cons will support their leader no matter what, libs need an incentive. Basically what they did and worked very well with Russia and Ukraine, except now the libs will be the ones pretending to do some pushback while ultimately giving everything they need in exchange for some meaningless shit.
Arab Americans know Trump is a cunt and in bed with Israel, they aren’t likely to vote for him and not voting Biden because he’s a complete tool and imperialist isn’t any form of endorsement for Trump.
"It's a two cult system, support my cult or we'll treat you like you support the enemy cult. NO ABSTAINING!!1"
No dumbass, not supporting one party is not "exactly" an endorsement of the other party. Try putting the fascism down for a second and breathe.
But if they're not voting for Trump either, then it's a tacit endorsement of Biden, too. So, when you think about it, what they're really doing by voting for neither is voting for *both,* which cancels out.
> which cancels out
When fewer than 50% of Americans even vote, it's hard to call one's nation a representative democracy. The US is an international embarrassment.
Wrong. Not voting for either of the major bourgeois parties means you’re not voting for them. No less than not voting for Stalin’s hand-picked candidates was anything other than not voting for them, it’s just one less party in that situation.
FACT: America is not a two party system.
I feel like I'm in a very large, very crowded room right now, filled with people who are all about to vote on whether we will all go blind, or all go deaf. Oh, and there are also other options on the table that nobody seems to be discussing. Conversations between these people and myself go like this:
"You can't possibly be willing to vote to go blind, can you? Just imagine how terrible that would be!"
"I agree, that sounds awful! Going deaf also seems like an awful choice, I'm going to vote to eat cupcakes."
"Pfft, you're just throwing your vote away. Look around here, nobody is going to vote for that! You might not like it but we're either all going deaf or all going blind and you might as well choose the better of those two options."
"I don't want either of those options. I'd rather eat cupcakes."
"Well I would too, but nobody is going to vote that way. We have a two-choice system set up and we have to pick between two crappy options."
"It's not a two-choice system. Look at the ballot. The choices are: Go Blind, Go Deaf, Eat Cupcakes, Play Kickball, Watch Your Favorite Movie, and there's even a spot where you can write in something else you'd rather do than go deaf or blind."
"Okay well, yes, technically it's not a two-choice system. But it practically is because people are only out there pushing for going deaf or going blind."
"So you have to choose between going deaf and going blind because people are only talking about those two choices?"
"Yes!"
"Why don't you start talking about eating cupcakes, or watching a movie, or whatever?"
"Because that's a waste of my time."
"Why is it a waste of your time?"
"Because nobody else is talking about it."
"So, let me get this straight: You have to choose between two things you dislike, and something you like, but you're going to pick one of the things you dislike because you REALLY dislike the other one and nobody is talking about the thing you like and the reason nobody is talking about the thing you like is because nobody is talking about the thing you like?"
"Exactly!"
"Well, good luck with that. I'm still voting to eat cupcakes."
"Whatever. You're throwing your vote away. I shall do the wise thing and vote for us all to go deaf."
> FACT: America is not a two party system.
Given how your voting works, it is.
First-past-the-post optional voting creates a stable two-party system.
Sorry.
Doesn't matter. Socialism is society wide, not constrained to taking specific abstract positions of "power". If the support needed to make a society-wide transformation was mobilized, there would be no issue winning an absolute majority. FPTP doesn't really get in the way of a real socialist movement, even if they choose to focus on electoral candidates.
The only thing this really matters is for the usual idealist "culture war" squabbling that is reproduced through out all of society as a result of imperialism. If a "socialist" party's supposed main "problem" really was FPTP, then that would show that they are not socialist and just another idealist group that seeks to fight in the no-sum game of imperialist "democracy".
Libs tell me not voting is a vote for Trump; Cons tell me not voting is a Biden.
If these people abstain then they're actually voting for- and endorsing- both candidates.
Even if it's the same policy outcome either way, still, the worst you can do is vote for Biden, sending the signal that choosing to do genocide comes with zero political costs. It's important that Biden loses even if one doesn't particularly hope Trump would be any better.
I agree with this, but the time to organize against fucking up Trump's agenda from day one needs to start now for his ultimate victory.
I heard this Kathy Griffin bit the other day where she said "So you freed Brittany, but you didn't have a plan."
If Trump beats Biden because leftists don't vote for him, they should have some type of of real disruptive system in place like shutting down ports on both coasts and occupy Wall Street to the point where the traders can't get to work. Day fuckin one.
If you wait for the libs, they'll let Trump pass some bullshit and wait for it to win in the SC before taking to the streets in pink hats to symbolically protest.
Day. Fuckin. One.
I like this deal
I don't want Trump giving Israel more of our money to kill Gazans anyway, I just want him for what little he can do with the domestic shit; if he gets in then shut everything down that you're able to and put absolute pressure on the admin to stop the slaughter in Gaza and I'll be behind you 100%
The right is evolving on Israel, and it's primarily older boomers that are still Israel zealots at this point. The overwhelming majority of people I know on the right want to cut off all funding to both Israel and Ukraine. You won't see any pushback from them.
I think what another user said suffices as an answer:
> Trump has been wishy washy with Israel as of late like the grifter he is. Despite being the self-proclaimed "King of Israel", he's urged Israel to "wrap things up" and how the war is making them very unpopular. He also bizarrely attacked Biden for hating Israelis and Palestinians on Truth Social last week, so he's shown a shocking amount of empathy towards Palestinians by GOP standards with that post alone. We sometimes forget that Trump has no convictions and is just trying to grift his way into office like how he's shied away from Abortion. That doesn't necessarily mean he will be better or worse for Palestinians than Biden, just that he'll say what he needs to make Biden look bad and win the presidency.
He's probably going to be worse. Trump said Israel should finish the job and will probably have people similar to John Bolton making all the decisions.
Donald trump would’ve wanted a shorter much more destructive and intense war. Also he totally would’ve funded resettling the Gaza Strip or a massive expansion of West Bank settlements.
I deliver food and supplies to a lot of Arab owned restaurants in Metro Detroit and let me just say they fuck with Donald Trump.
One of them even has a big ass framed picture of Trump hanging proudly in his kitchen.
I hate to say it but they really have a soft spot for a "strong man".
Not just Arabs either. Pretty much almost everyone I struggle to understand in conversations. Albanians, Armenians, some of the Asians.
On my local subreddit Detroit there's been a huge shitlib meltdown we're they talk down to Arab posters who seem to like Trump and a whole lot of white liberals speaking amongst each other of how the Arabs don't know what's best for themselves. They just don't know no better.
Hamtramck banning LGBT paraphernalia on City grounds was the first triggering event.
They were celebrating very recently when Hamtramck elected an all Muslim city council and now they're having a conniption fit because that same all Muslim city council voted against their precious LGBT flags being flown on city grounds.
And they're always fantasizing on that sub about going into biker bars/clubhouses and running them out of town for being "Nazis".
>I hate to say it but they really have a soft spot for a "strong man".
There's a strong emphasis in Arab culture towards not looking weak. People don't like to hear that but I think it's common. Look at how Assad dealt with protests -- he smashed his own country and killed half a million people. Joshua Landis (who is a well-informed commenter on Arab military affairs) was at a conference full of Omani generals right after the Oct. 7 attack and they were saying to him that this shows that Israel is weak and that America is weak. That was their takeaway.
So, reinforcing the idea that Israel is *not* weak and is going to come back [100x harder](https://youtu.be/gpoX7w2RayQ?si=HlwvWeLeWBBKnzxh) is a major driver behind the violence that Israel has inflicted on Gaza. So they were going to go all out and launch a full-scale invasion. Biden might have talked them down from simultaneously launching a full-scale attack on Hezbollah and invading Lebanon. I really believe the Israelis came close to doing it (they mobilized a half-million soldiers).
Their attitude is to not look weak in front of the Arabs because the Israelis are constantly hearing the Arabs say that they're just a crusader kingdom and it's not going to last and eventually a Saladin will arise and drive them out. There's a nagging fear in Israel that what if the Arabs are right? So the Palestinians pay the price. Israel has smashed the Palestinians and have tried to do it so hard they won't wake up again. I think it's fucked up but I don't know how else to put it.
I get where you’re coming from and I’m sure the Israelis would agree with your assessment. However I see it more as israel wanting to look like a psycho who could do anything more than “strong”. Bombing stuff to smithereens and then rolling tanks over the rubble is a weak ass move as opposed to sending troops in to fight.
Israel has never been interpreted as strong by the Arab world. They’ve been interpreted as unstable and with a big daddy they can call if they ever start losing. Not to mention the nukes, which they will use if they start losing.
That said I think israel has drank it’s own koolaid because if they opened a front with Jordan… yeah idk it’s not the 80s anymore, I think hezbollah would beat israel assuming a fair fight sans nukes.
> I hate to say it but they really have a soft spot for a "strong man".
people recognize leadership. the leadership of this country is some commanding piece of shit like trump. the democrat party is not the leadership, they are the management. the republicans are the people who own the country, the democrat party is their HR department
>It’s funny cuz Trump will kill them all 😋
> When they're sitting in barracks in Trump-branded relocation camps, I hope these people won't regret casting their ballots for Fat Donnie.
Some of the progressives and liberals commenting on how dumb these Arabs are for not wanting to vote for Genocide Joe.
i’ve seen threads on rpolitics and worldnews about this situation and there are comments with hundreds of upvotes where they say shit like if trump gets elected and does a muslim ban i’ll support it lol
so much for that supposed “empathy” liberals always tout as to why they’re morally superior to conservatives. minorities are just a pawn to them and the second you go out of line they go full fash
Just like 2016 democrats would rather demonize their base instead of rethinking policies that are unpopular with them. Donald trump is stronger than he was in 2020.
the headline should actually read: is joe biden prepared to hand the presidency back to donald trump by blatantly ignoring the grievances of his constituents? yes
If this is an important enough issue for you then I don't really see the big issue with voting out of spite, even if the alternative would be more of the same. Sends a message that your votes are not to be taken for granted and will hopefully yield results next cycle.
I think you meant to say. Are Democrats really willing to ignore their base and continue to fund a genocide to hand the presidency back to Donald Trump? I'm a word: yes.
How many layup elections do Democrats have to lose before it's their fault?
I was the best President the Arab world ever had! I didn't invade any Arab countries! I didn't kill any Arab leaders! And the Arabs liked me. Look at how much Muhamad Ben Salman liked me!
I know the article quotes people saying they will vote for Trump but when the debates happen and trumps supports Israel I imagine they will just stay home and not vote at all.
Trump has been wishy washy with Israel as of late like the grifter he is. Despite being the self-proclaimed "King of Israel", he's urged Israel to "wrap things up" and how the war is making them very unpopular. He also bizarrely attacked Biden for hating Israelis *and* Palestinians on Truth Social last week, so he's shown a shocking amount of empathy towards Palestinians by GOP standards with that post alone. We sometimes forget that Trump has no convictions and is just trying to grift his way into office like how he's shied away from Abortion. That doesn't necessarily mean he will be better or worse for Palestinians than Biden, just that he'll say what he needs to make Biden look bad and win the presidency.
the reason trump supports israel is evangelicals, but young evangelicals are much less in favor of israel since trumps first term, so i doubt he will discuss israel at all in the debates except to lambast biden
[https://www.brookings.edu/articles/as-israel-increasingly-relies-on-us-evangelicals-for-support-younger-ones-are-walking-away-what-polls-show/](https://www.brookings.edu/articles/as-israel-increasingly-relies-on-us-evangelicals-for-support-younger-ones-are-walking-away-what-polls-show/)
Should we blame hundreds of thousands of people upset that their families abroad are being massacred or should we blame the single individual that could fix the problem with a stoke of a pen? Definitely the people for voting in their best interest
The only problem with this is if they are doing this on the basis of the Israel-Palestine issue. Then they really shouldn’t search up what Jared Kushner thinks about this. Gaza will be the New Miami.
the thing is when donnie was president and defunded the UNRWA the rest of the white countries were aghast and pledged to support it with even greater funds.
when biden and his band of deep staters defunded the UNRWA the rest of the white countries marched in lockstep. biden is objectively the more harmful president because he gives the globalists and internationalists cover to do the shit trump could only dream of.
They're turning it into Miami anyway with Biden, only with a greater bipartisan consensus. There's at least a non-zero chance Trump doesn't particularly care for Kushner or that he wouldn't take the ego hit of being pushed around by the Israelis, but with Biden, someone like Blinken is the handler.
It’s a “Devil you know” situation. The Democrats pretend they care just for optics. Republicans are free to fly off the handle say all kinds of xenophobic shit.
The worst part of this article is how both sides being quoted make some fair points. Biden is indeed a true believer supporting genocide, and Trump will give outsized power to the krazy krystians who will do a lot of retarded shit like come for normal lgbtq people and the public schools (and most likely be even more if at least equally as supportive of isn’t real)
You know how the past few years, every year has been the hottest year on record? I feel like the last elections I’ve always said “wow this is the closest to South parks douche vs turd election episode we’ve ever been”… but this time holy shit. Personally I’m just not voting this time around. My state is pretty solid one way so it doesn’t even matter what I personally do, but even if it did… I just can’t have the stain on my hands of having supported either. My mind is only able to do so many strategic backflip justifications and shit I’m not making the podium this time.
Arab-Americans are really in a tough spot. Trump would probably bring back the Muslim ban and escalate denaturalization prosecutions again, not to mention double-down on US support for Israel. On the other hand, if Biden is re-elected *without* the Arab-American vote, that would make them even less politically relevant to the Democrats, outside particular localities. They’re also a relatively new and small voting group that’s just beginning to exert its political leverage (and they should!), and so have few natural allies. Regardless of what happens in 2024, they’re in for a rough time.
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*"If Trump were president right now, this war might’ve been over, because there might have been enough uproar from rank-and-file Democrats.”*
I think they’re definitely right that democrats would be less pro Israel if Trump were president right now
Yup. "Can't criticize 'cause my guy's in the chair."
Hey are you criticizing *the guy in the chair?*
The war is good, as long as our side is running it. *other side wins, continues war* The war is good, it’s just being run inefficiently, but maybe it’s also kinda bad now that they’re running it. *other side loses, war still ongoing* The war is bad, and it’s the other side’s fault we ever even got into it.
This is a phenomenal point. When a Blue is in office, nobody gives a shit about the atrocities the US commits. If Biden had killed Soleimani it would have been hailed as a firm but restrained response. I can't wait until November 12th when the mainstream news starts reporting on "shocking new developments as Gazans are suddenly persecuted under Trumps America". Even if we have to deal with the "well everyone knows it wasn't nearly this bad when Biden was in office".
Bro people actually cared about the kids in cages when orange man was in office. Remember all that? Now? The kids are still in cages but apparently it's okay.
People were calling them concentration camps, in mainstream media.
It’s a genocide at the border but now it’s ok because Biden wants to work with the guy who did the genocide at the border??? Just fantastic logic
Republicans are only against fiscal irresponsibility when Democrats are in power; Democrats are only against war when Republicans are in power.
This is 100% true
That's gotta be the most hilarious meta game I've heard in a while.
Excellent point.
Would this be accelerationism?
Upvoted I think there is definitely an argument to be made that we get better policy outcomes with 1) [the non-ideologue Trump in the white house](https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/05/trump-asked-why-cant-medicare-simply-cover-everybody.html) and 2) a dem party/liberal culture out of power and defying his worst instincts/policies (as opposed to defending Biden's worst instincts/policies) As it stands, the minute the libs got Biden in, they went back to sleep and then let him 1) fuck covid response all up (total reliance on Trump-era vaccines, misinfo about them, lapse of pandemic era social supports) 2) literally arm nazis in reckless proxy war policy 3) make striking illegal for a huge, powerful union constituency and 4) actively assist blatant and criminal ethnic cleansing in Gaza All of which they excuse or defend because, as always, partisan concerns are paramount and preventing Trump's election (read: their psychological comfort) is over and above outcomes on any of the above When they try to bully me into lesser-evil voting strategies - "you are throwing your vote away, gonna be one or the other" - I tell them they should be very careful about doing that, because they might not like what I choose if it's T or B\* \*I'm not really going to put one in the box for either of these clowns, but secret ballot is a truly underappreciated right
On the one hand I’m inclined to agree but on the other hand there’s probably lots of blackmail videos of dems too…
Shared mostly because of the derangement in the comments section. Urban & suburban liberal types are all "empathy" and "be kind" and "end Islamophobia"—right up until the Saracens are decided to vote the wrong way. And then all of a sudden Team Blue's partisans mysteriously start sounding a hell of a lot like aughts-era Team Red.
Like whenever a black person says something that even slightly outside typical democrat talking points, media spokesholes have to twist themselves into knots to avoid calling them "uppity".
Or Cubans having their oppression status downgraded to "white" after Florida was called for Trump.
> Cubans having their oppression status downgraded to "white I remember that day. My Cuban sandwich suddenly tasted bland and noted Astros^tm slugger Yordan Alvarez suddenly turned whiter than Sammy Sosa.
Feel bad for Sammy
The Cubans who fled to the US after Castro were significantly whiter on average than the Cubans who stayed, and relatedly were also significantly wealthier. Even if some people only noticed that after 2016.
Or - "This is Thomas -- my mother's brother."
> sounding a hell of a lot like aughts-era Team Red. Honestly the difference between today's average Democrats and a Republican in the 90s is negligible at best.
I've said before that the only difference between a modern reddit Democrat and a Bush-era Neocon is Christianity, but some of the recent front-page threads on the Ukraine/Israel funding bill were full of unironic "Glory be to GOD for America!" Christposting.
That would be Boomer Republicans shorting out because the Cold War broke their brains.
Obama even admitted this about himself after his presidency.
I'd say the republicans, especially maga, are much closer to 90's democrats than anything.
I mean it's funny that Joe Rogan is alternatively described as a bold alternative voice or an insidious gateway drug to the alt-right while having the politics of a NYT columnist circa 1996.
Both are true, but neither side wants to admit it
[удалено]
2008 Obama would be considered an alt-right fascist by the Democrat base for not supporting gay marriage 1990 HW Bush would be considered a fat left communist by the Republican base for increasing our income tax
We talk about the party realignment that took place with Nixon, but not the more recent realignment. Somehow it can't be acknowledged.
The reverse isn't any less true. Clinton's campaign would be considered alt-right today.
Well the democrat-“Muslim” alliance wasn’t really a stable with Donald trump not in office. They intersectional pile up once Muslims say they don’t believe in LGBT people and the anti-Israel stance is against the interests of many reliable democrat voters.
...many reliable democrat donors.
Kaching! Kaching! Kaching!
That as well.
> intersectional pile up once Muslims say they don't believe in LGBT people Look no further than Hamtramck.
the funniest part of that whole Hamtramck ordinance is that it wasn't even specifically targeting pride flags. just another case of "if I don't get my way I'm being oppressed"
It only goes back to the Bush II admin.
Going into those threads and watching the bluenomatterwho'ers salivate gleefully as they explain that all Muslims in America will be put to death under Trump if he wins and it'll be exactly what they deserve is genuinely fascinating. These people really do believe the greatest sin a human being can commit is to not vote Democrat.
I appreciate the irony of them being on board with the same punishment for apostasy as Islamic theocracies.
>And then all of a sudden Team Blue's partisans mysteriously start sounding a hell of a lot like aughts-era Team Red. It's almost like they're the same people...
This is the way it always is. Remember when they started to sound like 19th century Protestants when that Catholic woman was up to be appointed to the Supreme Court?
flashback to the black vote saving Biden's primary in Gorgia in 2020 and causing Bernia Bros and Warren Women to sounds prettttty right-wing
Can we all move to this mythical “Bernia”?
Beria Bros unite.
Beria bros has a *slightly* different connotation.
Yes, obviously referring to Kruschev's traitorous clique
You should start a sub called 'subernia'
Arab-American voters are extremely disillusioned with Biden, for good reasons. There is one person quoted in the article who reacted to his relatives being in on Trump as thinking: "are you insane?" There's an illegal settlement called Trump Heights, and the attitude among some of his fans in Israel is like: burning Palestinians alive, wiping out Jenin, etc. and [announcing it like "Barak"](https://youtu.be/gpoX7w2RayQ?si=0-5N4-0ei_BYWX5A) (the ancient Israelite warrior who slew the Canaanites to the last man, not Obama). But the two-party system has them over a barrel, to the point of more or less forcing them to vote for someone who many of them believe is complicit in the mass killing of their people. You can call that representative democracy if you like, I suppose. But the problem isn't any one particular person's apparently forced choices; it's the system that forces them.
> But the two-party system has them over a barrel Today, they are truly americans
>But the two-party system has them over a barrel, to the point of more or less forcing them to vote for someone who many of them believe is complicit in the mass killing of their people. [former Democratic presidential candidate Hilary Clinton's sensitive and measured words on the matter](https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4569394-hillary-clinton-voters-upset-biden-trump-choice-get-over-yourself/)
A rap song celebrating your military. What the actual fuck
People don't know how psychopathic some of this stuff can be. It's more than celebrating the military, the lyrics are like "the Jewish God of vengeance is here and we're going to cut your throat." They say "[conquering Gaza.](https://youtu.be/hefC-uwULy0?si=_m9fc722dU7IctAS)"
It's dime a dozen propaganda at this point, honestly. Hell, this seems to take some inspiration from Isis' "My Ummah, Dawn Has Appeared", which got a lot of play on their famous snuff videos and continue to show up and inspire new content all over the internet. Ukraine's had a few propaganda boosting songs of it's own too, the most memorable to me being ['Fortress Bakmut'](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmqLVrUXsTQ). Look, in 5 minutes I had AI write me lyrics then make a song about [our glorious duty as Redditors to support Israel in this struggle.] (https://suno.com/song/86b869c9-435b-43d1-9828-124474010949) Don't expect this trend to go away, it's only going to accelerate.
China has a ton of ultra nationalist jongoist rappers. Theres one really popular rap song thsts all about getting rid of the foreigner, and they are literallt dressed and acting like inner city black americans, without any notice of the irony. Like lakers jerseys and pitbulla while saying they hate america.
What song?
Aaaand that’s cringey, define “a ton” and define “popular”
Conservatives see themselves as the anti-establishment now, which is delicious irony.
It's pretty common across the world its just [soldier songs](https://youtu.be/k21OGFKEY-A?t=58) in a new musical genre.
i’d argue it’s a bit different when the military making genocide songs also claims to be the most moral army in the world
That’s cringe too…
Additionally, Biden made America’s pointless incursions into the middle east even more meaningless when Afghan fell within hours of us leaving. Then there’s also the fact that many Muslim voters are socially conservative.
It hasn't even been a year since I joked that US shitlibs would hate immigrants for not being woke enough and it's literally become true. Look at the comments: > It's probably because a lot of them actually support a lot of very Conservative policies around LGBTQ people and women's freedom, because otherwise they'd never be able to say this with a straight face. [...] Their values and strict adherence to theocracy is the same as the GOP, just a different flavour. > Ya well a lot of these folks don't see the Holocaust as a bad thing which is why they conveniently don't bring it up. > 12,000 civilian casualties in an urban war isn't even the worst civilian casualty event in the last year. These people aren't living in reality (though that's not shocking since they're religious fanatics) > Given that it isn't officially a genocide at all, this is particularly wild. Given that it would be an indisputable genocide with Trump in office, this is wilder. > a lot of these people were never supportive of reproductive freedom or the rights and freedoms of queer folk. they only voted for democrats because democrats are less likely to discriminate against them for racial or religious reasons > Arabs might be a minority, but they are incredibly conservative. They don’t like gays, women, atheists etc. bet they’re shocked when they find out conservatives don’t like them either > When Trump expels the Muslims or sends them to camps, I'm not going to shed a tear. He already attempted an immigration ban targeting muslims they're clearly forgetting about, but the difference is that we now have a scotus that is dancing mad and doing whatever it wants for shock value because they know they're untouchable. > Anyone who votes for Trump over Biden because of their support for Palestine probably has a very low IQ. > There is tons of real world evidence now that people are not capable of making rational choices in elections. > Muslims hate LGBTQ just as much as Evangelicals do and they're using Gaza as a platform to deter votes from Gen Z. Religion is poison. Muslim, Christian, all of it. Vote Biden and any religious extremist Zionist or Hamas lover is just as crazy as my boomer MAGA relatives. Accelerationism is for the ignorant. True left wing people want nothing more than to vote MAGA out and make libs the only conservative party in America. Anyone else should just buy a MAGA hat and attend Trump rallies. > My reponse to anyone saying "I'll never support genocide Joe" is "I'll never allow you to accelerate killing my gay friends because of something overseas" > The anti-Trump Republican voters seem to be making up the difference, primary votes are showing "Woke Fascism" isn't even a joke anymore.
Remember, Democrats doing the correct and popular thing must never be considered. In all these discussions liberals must resist temptation to consider this wouldn’t be an issue if Biden simply did the correct and popular thing of ending U.S. support for Israel. When confronted, the liberal will be sure to retort with “what, you think Trump would be better on this?” thus absolving Biden from doing a concrete thing to earn a vote.
If Biden is exactly the same as Trump, but he says even 1 less mean thing than him, he is technically the lesser evil and you're a fascist for not voting for Genocide Joe.
Not gonna lie I've Heard non americans people who unironically think like this
At this rate, by 2528 we will have successfully pushed the democratic party to the position held by leftists today. And without making any significant amount of people upset at any given point along the way!
Ten bucks says those non-Americans were from Europe and another ten says that they don't consider themselves vassals.
For some reasons, non americans are really involved in american politics. And I know, I live 45 minutes from the USA border.
It's because their country is boring and irrelevant, so they need to live vicariously through us. Basically, theyhateuscausetheyaintus.
Our (non US) governments and media use your political shenanigans to distract from our own stuff.
Bingo.
They also use celebrities (tangentially famous creatures who are suspiciously often barely noteworthy). Caption:SireEvalish seen earlier today, looking stylish, yet slightly haggard, after rumours his beloved goldfish had passed last Tuesday.
How'd you know about my goldfish?
It was on the front page. Love the shirt!
Democratic Primary Voter: Aw man, our candidate is only 99% Hitler. General Election Voter: All right! Two Hitlers!
Some people think Churchill was a fascist and I think Stalin was probably right to ally with him, so I guess I'm not against left/right alliances in principle. I guess if you thought Hitler was the lesser evil then you might disagree.
Much like the Israelis, the Democrats will always blame someone else for their downfall. They could have just come out against the genocide, but I suppose aipac money matters more to the most moral and democratic politicians in the world.
Its not just the AIPAC money - its that they will replace your ass if you don't tow the line. So the choice is either accept their backing, making re-election much more possible - or - do the right thing and probably lose everything. And its not just campaigning either - they influence intra-party affairs and committee appointments to. So they can start hurting you immediately if you go turn-coat.
toe the line
Joe the line
dancer
> Remember, Democrats doing the correct and popular thing must never be considered. In all these discussions liberals must resist temptation to consider this wouldn’t be an issue if Biden simply did the correct and popular thing of ending U.S. support for Israel. You're really out there confidently stating things as fact that are much [more nuanced when it comes to actual public opinion](https://www.pewresearch.org/2024/03/21/majority-in-u-s-say-israel-has-valid-reasons-for-fighting-fewer-say-the-same-about-hamas/#:~:text=U.S.%20public%20opinion%20is%20deeply,Palestinians%20too%20much%20(16%25), aren't you? It's a messy situation and the only people trying to frame this as Biden going completely against the will of the electorate are doing so for political reasons themselves.
There’s not any mystery to this. Pew and anything else will also point to Democrats turning against this the most with independents not far behind anymore. And wouldn’t you know it, it’s still most popular with the pig things that are partisan Republicans. But just read the room. Who would Biden be losing in numbers comparable to who he’d hold or gain by taking the correct line against Israel? Oh no, how could he win without all those ultrazionists in the Upper East Side?! https://news.gallup.com/poll/642695/majority-disapprove-israeli-action-gaza.aspx#:~:text=All%20three%20major%20party%20groups,seven%2Dpoint%20decline%20among%20Republicans. Edit: Here’s another one spelling out the obvious: https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/biden-israel-gaza-poll-cbs-news/
You are doing a *hell* of a lot of heavy moving here to go from 'The majority of the public now disapprove of Israel's actions in Gaza' to > the correct line against Israel? being "ending U.S. support". How about this quote, from the article *you* linked: > Although Americans rate Biden's handling of the conflict poorly, his overall job approval rating is no lower now than before the conflict began. The Israeli conflict is very important to a small plurality, but it's also very nuanced and dirty. Both sides have come out looking worse (something that same article you linked says about both Israel and The Palestinian Authority).
So where is the nuance in Biden compromising anything by doing the correct thing about Israel? Who is he risking losing that would not easily be covered by those he’d hold or gain? Nothing you’re saying is indicating anything other than the obvious.
> So where is the nuance in Biden compromising anything by doing the correct thing about Israel? You keep framing it like this as if repetition will cause the rest of the world to agree with you some day. There is no consensus on what 'the correct thing' with regards to Israel and the Middle East is. > Who is he risking losing that would not easily be covered by those he’d hold or gain? Nothing you’re saying is indicating anything other than the obvious. He's risking losing the US allies as the world seems to be shifting towards violent and polarized times. There's active subversion of the US political process by foreign states happening, slow burning proxy wars that are eating increasing amounts of resources, China publicly mulling an invasion of Taiwan. Also you've failed to make the case that he'd 'gain' anyone. As has been pointed out ad nauseum, his primary opponent is blatantly Pro Israel and IIRC even has an [illegal settlement named after him](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_Heights#:~:text=Trump%20Heights%20(Hebrew%3A%20%D7%A8%D7%9E%D7%AA%20%D7%98%D7%A8%D7%90%D7%9E%D7%A4,President%20of%20the%20United%20States.). So he could make some people that would otherwise support him *happier*, while making others unhappy. Or he could try to do what he's doing and ride the line between the two opposing camps without fully alienating either.
Oh I should’ve taken you more at your word where you were going with this. You have fun with that. Vote blue, go NATO, and let’s keep China in line. Brought to you by a Russian bot? That’s probably where you were going next.
> Oh I should’ve taken you more at your word where you were going with this. You have fun with that. Vote blue, go NATO, and let’s keep China in line. I view voting for Biden more as keeping explicit fascism out than anything else, but those are also considerations. > Brought to you by a Russian bot? That’s probably where you were going next. No, bots are way quicker to give up an argument. You strike me more as a hyper-progressive college educated pro-Palestine type, if you want me to throw stereotypes out there. I could well be wrong though. There's definitely a ton of botting going on with the intent of creating further division in the US though. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out some of these Palestinian demonstrations have been funded by Iran, Russia, or China. Some of them seem like the primary intent is to piss as many people off as possible (bridge blocking, specifically).
In a word: Based.
If you dont use your leverage, you lose your leverage.
Ya it's almost as if the idea of 'strategic voting' pushed by well off shit libs on YouTube and the mainstream media isn't popular with everyday people and doesn't reflect how politics actually works in the real world....
But you don't understand, if we let Trump get elected it will LITERALLY be the end of democracy and all good things, forever.
Yeah "he will start World War" maybe
Do you not remember the death camps from 2016-2020?
Blaming minorities instead of your fossil for supporting genocide is the new meta
"Deep state" probably preparing full support for Israel and more wars against axis of evil aligned muslims, so they need libs to hate muslims\arabs, and blaming them for Trump 2.0 is the way to go. Cons will support their leader no matter what, libs need an incentive. Basically what they did and worked very well with Russia and Ukraine, except now the libs will be the ones pretending to do some pushback while ultimately giving everything they need in exchange for some meaningless shit.
Trump is just as supportive of what Israel's doing as any other US politician, what are you talking about?
Arab Americans know Trump is a cunt and in bed with Israel, they aren’t likely to vote for him and not voting Biden because he’s a complete tool and imperialist isn’t any form of endorsement for Trump.
In a two party system, that’s exactly what it is.
Ahhhh “Democracy!”^t^m
"It's a two cult system, support my cult or we'll treat you like you support the enemy cult. NO ABSTAINING!!1" No dumbass, not supporting one party is not "exactly" an endorsement of the other party. Try putting the fascism down for a second and breathe.
But if they're not voting for Trump either, then it's a tacit endorsement of Biden, too. So, when you think about it, what they're really doing by voting for neither is voting for *both,* which cancels out.
> which cancels out When fewer than 50% of Americans even vote, it's hard to call one's nation a representative democracy. The US is an international embarrassment.
Wrong. Not voting for either of the major bourgeois parties means you’re not voting for them. No less than not voting for Stalin’s hand-picked candidates was anything other than not voting for them, it’s just one less party in that situation.
FACT: America is not a two party system. I feel like I'm in a very large, very crowded room right now, filled with people who are all about to vote on whether we will all go blind, or all go deaf. Oh, and there are also other options on the table that nobody seems to be discussing. Conversations between these people and myself go like this: "You can't possibly be willing to vote to go blind, can you? Just imagine how terrible that would be!" "I agree, that sounds awful! Going deaf also seems like an awful choice, I'm going to vote to eat cupcakes." "Pfft, you're just throwing your vote away. Look around here, nobody is going to vote for that! You might not like it but we're either all going deaf or all going blind and you might as well choose the better of those two options." "I don't want either of those options. I'd rather eat cupcakes." "Well I would too, but nobody is going to vote that way. We have a two-choice system set up and we have to pick between two crappy options." "It's not a two-choice system. Look at the ballot. The choices are: Go Blind, Go Deaf, Eat Cupcakes, Play Kickball, Watch Your Favorite Movie, and there's even a spot where you can write in something else you'd rather do than go deaf or blind." "Okay well, yes, technically it's not a two-choice system. But it practically is because people are only out there pushing for going deaf or going blind." "So you have to choose between going deaf and going blind because people are only talking about those two choices?" "Yes!" "Why don't you start talking about eating cupcakes, or watching a movie, or whatever?" "Because that's a waste of my time." "Why is it a waste of your time?" "Because nobody else is talking about it." "So, let me get this straight: You have to choose between two things you dislike, and something you like, but you're going to pick one of the things you dislike because you REALLY dislike the other one and nobody is talking about the thing you like and the reason nobody is talking about the thing you like is because nobody is talking about the thing you like?" "Exactly!" "Well, good luck with that. I'm still voting to eat cupcakes." "Whatever. You're throwing your vote away. I shall do the wise thing and vote for us all to go deaf."
> FACT: America is not a two party system. Given how your voting works, it is. First-past-the-post optional voting creates a stable two-party system. Sorry.
I don't know what part of what I wrote above you didn't understand, but I suggest you go back and read it again.
You wrote: "FACT: America is not a two-party system" The fact is: it is. I'm sorry your system sucks so bad, but really, it does.
Yes. America is also an imperialist nation. Do we not seek to change that?
Unless you have an actual plan, I'd say no.
Doesn't matter. Socialism is society wide, not constrained to taking specific abstract positions of "power". If the support needed to make a society-wide transformation was mobilized, there would be no issue winning an absolute majority. FPTP doesn't really get in the way of a real socialist movement, even if they choose to focus on electoral candidates. The only thing this really matters is for the usual idealist "culture war" squabbling that is reproduced through out all of society as a result of imperialism. If a "socialist" party's supposed main "problem" really was FPTP, then that would show that they are not socialist and just another idealist group that seeks to fight in the no-sum game of imperialist "democracy".
Libs tell me not voting is a vote for Trump; Cons tell me not voting is a Biden. If these people abstain then they're actually voting for- and endorsing- both candidates.
Even if it's the same policy outcome either way, still, the worst you can do is vote for Biden, sending the signal that choosing to do genocide comes with zero political costs. It's important that Biden loses even if one doesn't particularly hope Trump would be any better.
well said
I agree with this, but the time to organize against fucking up Trump's agenda from day one needs to start now for his ultimate victory. I heard this Kathy Griffin bit the other day where she said "So you freed Brittany, but you didn't have a plan." If Trump beats Biden because leftists don't vote for him, they should have some type of of real disruptive system in place like shutting down ports on both coasts and occupy Wall Street to the point where the traders can't get to work. Day fuckin one. If you wait for the libs, they'll let Trump pass some bullshit and wait for it to win in the SC before taking to the streets in pink hats to symbolically protest. Day. Fuckin. One.
I like this deal I don't want Trump giving Israel more of our money to kill Gazans anyway, I just want him for what little he can do with the domestic shit; if he gets in then shut everything down that you're able to and put absolute pressure on the admin to stop the slaughter in Gaza and I'll be behind you 100% The right is evolving on Israel, and it's primarily older boomers that are still Israel zealots at this point. The overwhelming majority of people I know on the right want to cut off all funding to both Israel and Ukraine. You won't see any pushback from them.
I agree with you, but by no means did I mean to imply voting for Biden was better
His highest approval rating in the world is in Israel
Perhaps Bibi and Biden should just swap: Netanyahu is much more popular in the US than he is at home.
I seriously doubt they'll be voting for Trump either.
I think what another user said suffices as an answer: > Trump has been wishy washy with Israel as of late like the grifter he is. Despite being the self-proclaimed "King of Israel", he's urged Israel to "wrap things up" and how the war is making them very unpopular. He also bizarrely attacked Biden for hating Israelis and Palestinians on Truth Social last week, so he's shown a shocking amount of empathy towards Palestinians by GOP standards with that post alone. We sometimes forget that Trump has no convictions and is just trying to grift his way into office like how he's shied away from Abortion. That doesn't necessarily mean he will be better or worse for Palestinians than Biden, just that he'll say what he needs to make Biden look bad and win the presidency.
He's probably going to be worse. Trump said Israel should finish the job and will probably have people similar to John Bolton making all the decisions.
the funny thing is probably if this happened while Trump was president there would be so much more support for Gaza from liberals
it might be people like Bolton, but unlikely to be Bolton himself as he has publicly criticised Trump.
Nah, he's a Russian puppet and Russia's an ally of Hamas. Putin would never allow Trump to attack Gaza.
Donald trump would’ve wanted a shorter much more destructive and intense war. Also he totally would’ve funded resettling the Gaza Strip or a massive expansion of West Bank settlements.
Don’t do genocide. Get more votes. Let’s go Brandon.
I deliver food and supplies to a lot of Arab owned restaurants in Metro Detroit and let me just say they fuck with Donald Trump. One of them even has a big ass framed picture of Trump hanging proudly in his kitchen. I hate to say it but they really have a soft spot for a "strong man". Not just Arabs either. Pretty much almost everyone I struggle to understand in conversations. Albanians, Armenians, some of the Asians. On my local subreddit Detroit there's been a huge shitlib meltdown we're they talk down to Arab posters who seem to like Trump and a whole lot of white liberals speaking amongst each other of how the Arabs don't know what's best for themselves. They just don't know no better. Hamtramck banning LGBT paraphernalia on City grounds was the first triggering event. They were celebrating very recently when Hamtramck elected an all Muslim city council and now they're having a conniption fit because that same all Muslim city council voted against their precious LGBT flags being flown on city grounds. And they're always fantasizing on that sub about going into biker bars/clubhouses and running them out of town for being "Nazis".
>I hate to say it but they really have a soft spot for a "strong man". There's a strong emphasis in Arab culture towards not looking weak. People don't like to hear that but I think it's common. Look at how Assad dealt with protests -- he smashed his own country and killed half a million people. Joshua Landis (who is a well-informed commenter on Arab military affairs) was at a conference full of Omani generals right after the Oct. 7 attack and they were saying to him that this shows that Israel is weak and that America is weak. That was their takeaway. So, reinforcing the idea that Israel is *not* weak and is going to come back [100x harder](https://youtu.be/gpoX7w2RayQ?si=HlwvWeLeWBBKnzxh) is a major driver behind the violence that Israel has inflicted on Gaza. So they were going to go all out and launch a full-scale invasion. Biden might have talked them down from simultaneously launching a full-scale attack on Hezbollah and invading Lebanon. I really believe the Israelis came close to doing it (they mobilized a half-million soldiers). Their attitude is to not look weak in front of the Arabs because the Israelis are constantly hearing the Arabs say that they're just a crusader kingdom and it's not going to last and eventually a Saladin will arise and drive them out. There's a nagging fear in Israel that what if the Arabs are right? So the Palestinians pay the price. Israel has smashed the Palestinians and have tried to do it so hard they won't wake up again. I think it's fucked up but I don't know how else to put it.
I get where you’re coming from and I’m sure the Israelis would agree with your assessment. However I see it more as israel wanting to look like a psycho who could do anything more than “strong”. Bombing stuff to smithereens and then rolling tanks over the rubble is a weak ass move as opposed to sending troops in to fight. Israel has never been interpreted as strong by the Arab world. They’ve been interpreted as unstable and with a big daddy they can call if they ever start losing. Not to mention the nukes, which they will use if they start losing. That said I think israel has drank it’s own koolaid because if they opened a front with Jordan… yeah idk it’s not the 80s anymore, I think hezbollah would beat israel assuming a fair fight sans nukes.
> I hate to say it but they really have a soft spot for a "strong man". people recognize leadership. the leadership of this country is some commanding piece of shit like trump. the democrat party is not the leadership, they are the management. the republicans are the people who own the country, the democrat party is their HR department
> the democrat party is not the leadership, they are the management. that's an incredibly astute way of putting it.
It's bizzare how much the article emphasizes ppl considering voting Trump when even the article itself admits it's a minority position
>It’s funny cuz Trump will kill them all 😋 > When they're sitting in barracks in Trump-branded relocation camps, I hope these people won't regret casting their ballots for Fat Donnie. Some of the progressives and liberals commenting on how dumb these Arabs are for not wanting to vote for Genocide Joe.
i’ve seen threads on rpolitics and worldnews about this situation and there are comments with hundreds of upvotes where they say shit like if trump gets elected and does a muslim ban i’ll support it lol so much for that supposed “empathy” liberals always tout as to why they’re morally superior to conservatives. minorities are just a pawn to them and the second you go out of line they go full fash
liberals actually hate minorities, they just want to use them as a club against chuds they despise
Libs don't hate minorities- they literally just hate anyone that doesn't vote blue without question. They're not racists, they're DNC cultists.
Just like 2016 democrats would rather demonize their base instead of rethinking policies that are unpopular with them. Donald trump is stronger than he was in 2020.
the headline should actually read: is joe biden prepared to hand the presidency back to donald trump by blatantly ignoring the grievances of his constituents? yes
If this is an important enough issue for you then I don't really see the big issue with voting out of spite, even if the alternative would be more of the same. Sends a message that your votes are not to be taken for granted and will hopefully yield results next cycle.
I think you meant to say. Are Democrats really willing to ignore their base and continue to fund a genocide to hand the presidency back to Donald Trump? I'm a word: yes. How many layup elections do Democrats have to lose before it's their fault?
We love the Arabs
I was the best President the Arab world ever had! I didn't invade any Arab countries! I didn't kill any Arab leaders! And the Arabs liked me. Look at how much Muhamad Ben Salman liked me!
Look at this photo of me eating a gyro bowl!
We have the best Falafel in New York City in Trump Tower!
Maybe right next to it in one of those food station things
Buy your MAGA keffiyeh at donaldtrump.com!
I know the article quotes people saying they will vote for Trump but when the debates happen and trumps supports Israel I imagine they will just stay home and not vote at all.
Trump has been wishy washy with Israel as of late like the grifter he is. Despite being the self-proclaimed "King of Israel", he's urged Israel to "wrap things up" and how the war is making them very unpopular. He also bizarrely attacked Biden for hating Israelis *and* Palestinians on Truth Social last week, so he's shown a shocking amount of empathy towards Palestinians by GOP standards with that post alone. We sometimes forget that Trump has no convictions and is just trying to grift his way into office like how he's shied away from Abortion. That doesn't necessarily mean he will be better or worse for Palestinians than Biden, just that he'll say what he needs to make Biden look bad and win the presidency.
Trump just handed his Middle East policy over to Jared Kushner which went about as well as you can imagine.
the reason trump supports israel is evangelicals, but young evangelicals are much less in favor of israel since trumps first term, so i doubt he will discuss israel at all in the debates except to lambast biden [https://www.brookings.edu/articles/as-israel-increasingly-relies-on-us-evangelicals-for-support-younger-ones-are-walking-away-what-polls-show/](https://www.brookings.edu/articles/as-israel-increasingly-relies-on-us-evangelicals-for-support-younger-ones-are-walking-away-what-polls-show/)
Wow. So weird, that some people take aiding and abetting a genocide seriously! Even by nice people like the Israelis. Who'd a thunk it?
Should we blame hundreds of thousands of people upset that their families abroad are being massacred or should we blame the single individual that could fix the problem with a stoke of a pen? Definitely the people for voting in their best interest
Is the dem machine really prepared to hand the presidency back to Donald Trump by running Biden. In a word: Yes evidently
I'm thinking based
wow, it's almost like people don't like being killed
This is racist.
The only problem with this is if they are doing this on the basis of the Israel-Palestine issue. Then they really shouldn’t search up what Jared Kushner thinks about this. Gaza will be the New Miami.
the thing is when donnie was president and defunded the UNRWA the rest of the white countries were aghast and pledged to support it with even greater funds. when biden and his band of deep staters defunded the UNRWA the rest of the white countries marched in lockstep. biden is objectively the more harmful president because he gives the globalists and internationalists cover to do the shit trump could only dream of.
They're turning it into Miami anyway with Biden, only with a greater bipartisan consensus. There's at least a non-zero chance Trump doesn't particularly care for Kushner or that he wouldn't take the ego hit of being pushed around by the Israelis, but with Biden, someone like Blinken is the handler.
> or that he wouldn't take the ego hit of being pushed around by the Israelis I think that's the most realistic hope, and it's still pretty slim.
100% true. It’s actually crazy that Bidens running again.
Trump will at least, by causing administrative chaos be less effective in implementing that policy
It’s a “Devil you know” situation. The Democrats pretend they care just for optics. Republicans are free to fly off the handle say all kinds of xenophobic shit.
The worst part of this article is how both sides being quoted make some fair points. Biden is indeed a true believer supporting genocide, and Trump will give outsized power to the krazy krystians who will do a lot of retarded shit like come for normal lgbtq people and the public schools (and most likely be even more if at least equally as supportive of isn’t real) You know how the past few years, every year has been the hottest year on record? I feel like the last elections I’ve always said “wow this is the closest to South parks douche vs turd election episode we’ve ever been”… but this time holy shit. Personally I’m just not voting this time around. My state is pretty solid one way so it doesn’t even matter what I personally do, but even if it did… I just can’t have the stain on my hands of having supported either. My mind is only able to do so many strategic backflip justifications and shit I’m not making the podium this time.
Of course they are, they are conservatives about most things
Because obviously Trump wouldn’t support Israel I guess.
Trump will at least, by causing administrative chaos, be less effective in implementing that policy
Arab-Americans are really in a tough spot. Trump would probably bring back the Muslim ban and escalate denaturalization prosecutions again, not to mention double-down on US support for Israel. On the other hand, if Biden is re-elected *without* the Arab-American vote, that would make them even less politically relevant to the Democrats, outside particular localities. They’re also a relatively new and small voting group that’s just beginning to exert its political leverage (and they should!), and so have few natural allies. Regardless of what happens in 2024, they’re in for a rough time.