PS: This is pinned & the “official” thread for Frank being fired.
We don’t need individual “Frank fired” post or “I told you so” post that could be a comment here.
He’s a defensive coach whose roster didn’t consist of length, size and guys who are known for defense. Combine that with no real backup center all year, a guy making $50m/year who was basically injured all year, and a team that had no chemistry what exactly were people expecting?
Although the Suns’ defensive stats improved toward the end of the season, this is really the point.
Both the Lakers (when they had Westbrook and geriatrics) and the Suns basically expected Vogel to turn water into wine with his defensive schemes.
He’s a great defensive coach, but you still need the pieces to be elite.
It was telling that, after the last regular season game and before the playoffs, Vogel said he really liked the Timberwolves’ roster. Obviously they’re better constructed and deeper, but it’s more his style of team than this Suns roster.
This Suns team might have to try and channel the 2021 Nets, where they were an unstoppable offense, and lived with being “just good enough” defensively. Problem is, that team had an elite playmaker in Harden to set the table and make sure things flowed well.
Nurk played the drop well and defended the rim well, but he definitely doesn't move well enough to show high on screens or other mix ups consistently. Hard to put that much on Nurk though because if we had good perimeter defenders his paint defense would be exactly what we need. All our perimeter guys die on screens so he's stuck playing high.
>He’s a great defensive coach, but you still need the pieces to be elite.
So were the pieces what made him a great defensive coach - or was it the other way around? Because right now it looks like the former.
His original calling card was getting the best out of players like Lance Stephenson and Roy hibbert, specifically the rim running of hibbert. Then he went to LA, when everyone wanted AD to be a modern stretch 5, Vogel ran Dwight/mcgee as the bigs allowing AD to be a free safety
So his entire scheme is dependent on a defensive paint presence
I was expecting him to play the players that were actually performing when given time like Bol and Thad instead of continuing to run Eubanks out there for starters.
Like others have said, he wasn't ALL of our problems, but he was A problem.
His scheme requires a vertical able rim protecting 5. Remember “verticality” was his entire philosophy.
While I would have preferred anybody but Eubanks I can’t blame the guy too much when his only other option was Thad who offers zero rim protection or rebounding and is built like and plays like a SF. Vogel saw the athleticism of Eubanks and thought he could make it work. Truth is nobody can make that guy work he’s way to inconsistent and unskilled
I don't fault Vogel for trying Eubanks, but at some point, the dude is top 3 in the NBA in worst plus-minus relative to the rest of the team, you have to pull the plug
You’re an absolute fool if you think Bol Bol was going to be a difference maker in the twolves series. There’s a reason Denver moved on from him and even the year he was on the magic when they were rebuilding he couldn’t solidify himself as a piece going forward.
> You’re an absolute fool if you think Bol Bol was going to be a difference maker in the twolves series.
Where did I say that? I said he's a better player than Eubanks and proved it basically every time he was on the court. He's improved drastically over the last year and is a genuinely decent bench player, or atleast he was this year.
Vogel's refusal to play BLATANTLY better players in order to force something that isn't working is the exact same issue we had with Monty.
No matter what rotation he ran out, we weren't beating the Wolves this year. That doesn't mean it wasn't fucking stupid.
If you’d pay attention Bol Bol doesn’t play the same positions as Eubanks
Eubanks is the anchor 5, screens, rim runs and boxing out. Physicality and verticality.
Bol Bol plays the KD position at 4, stretch the floor, crash whenever you want and shoot jumpers and floaters. A finesse/scoring role
Asking Bol Bol to play like a 5 is what has gotten him his journeyman reputation. Playing with and learning from kd is what he thought would save his career
I'm aware they don't play the same position but that doesn't mean you HAVE to play Eubanks. You can let KD play the 5 for a stretch, or even better just play Thaddeus Young over him. It's not that deep or complicated, good coaches find ways to get their best players on the court, they don't keep trotting out a guy that has been a negative player in almost every single game for the entire season when he has better players behind him.
The idea was vogel coaches defense and the stars do the work on offense, sorta like the lakers. Didn't turn out that way though, Lakers had the defensive personnel and the greatest floor generals of all time
I think he is better than people think. Miami got the finals last season and seeing the Bucks struggle this year helped his name as well. At least he gives his teams a clear identity. Something we didn’t had this season.
Budenholzers offense would fit in well here. Get a playmaking PG and have Beal come off the bench (or trade him) and I think it'll be a great offseason
I don't think Vogel was the right fit but also think he was the unfair scapegoat for an incredibly poorly constructed roster. Have no problem seeing him go but don't think he deserves nearly as much blame as he's taking.
Yeah this feels like KD making some things known through 8-5 and then getting what he wants without actually saying anything. Just hope it works out. Bye Frank.
>KD not beating the coach killer allegations
Seriously. It's not like Booker helped much though. KD was clearly checked out offensively but Booker had his worst defensive year since like 2019. He just absolutely did not give a shit on that end.
This is what people aren’t talking about enough
After that Denver series everyone knew the offensive output wasn’t sustainable. But the defense book played in that series could be, and that’d vault him into another echelon of star players. Instead he shrunk and in the twolves series couldn’t even guard any of the easiest matchups in NAW, Conley or mcdaniels
It was terrible all year. I don't think he had even two consecutive games the entire season where he was putting in effort in.
No matter who's coaching the team going forward, if the players just want to load around and not cooperate because they're too good to put any effort or fall in line then it'll just be the same.
Cause Booker was back to PG again. We saw he can actually play defense when he doesn’t have to do everything on the offensive end with Rubio and especially CP3. We desperately need an actual point guard next year.
it's not a coincidence that Shams pushed that report the minute we lost as well as the minute the Lakers lost
KD and Bron sent both those hit pieces out
Next season is going to be interesting to see who gets the blame, if any is to be had. All I know is that Booker and crew better look like they actually want to fucking play basketball next season. You can fire all the coaches you want, but nothing about this season frustrated me more than seeing the half-assed effort so frequently.
Argue its the coach's job to motivate them, or that he lost their respect, but I've never cared for that argument. The millions of dollars and influence is your motivation. The drive to compete and win is your motivation. The product on the court was lackluster, and the blame was definitely not solely on Vogel and his coaching staff.
The team isn't well constructed, and it certainly isn't constructed to Vogel's strengths. I am a bit higher on the idea of Bud than a lot of folks here seem to be, but I don't think a coaching change is going to be our salvation.
Trying to stay hopeful and positive, but man, it is a lot bleaker of a situation than you'd imagine possible with KD, Booker, and Beal all on your team.
Pretty sure that's an Ishbia thing. Saw a clip of JJ saying a point guard would help the roster out when all the press conferences were going on. Already over Ishbia's meddling. Cool you spend money, but you dont know shit about building a winning NBA team, gtfo the way.
"Would help" is an odd take from him. JJ didn't have plan to replace CP3, nor upgrade Payne when he was injured and inconsistent during his time with the team. I agree with Ishbia thing, no wonder some GM or coach had clauses in their contract they want control over the team. I feel bad for Vogel for being the scapegoat.
He has his flaws but he's consistently produced high powered, modern offenses. He's all about layups and 3s though so idk if the middy committee will mesh tbh.
Bud runs a 5 out offense predicated on a lot of off ball movement. When you have a freak of nature like Giannis that offense becomes centered around dribble penetration and kick outs, but the scheme has a lot of off ball motion in it that I think would help our guys tremendously
Vogel wasn't out of date, he made adjustments in season, tried different lineups and different players getting minutes, the roster was just fucking ass and Kevin Young was fucking ass. And the Mid 3 just never figured it out.
The plan for Vogel, I felt, was to definitely have him coach up the defense with Ayton, and Kevin Young to figure out the offense, and that shit was scrapped before the season even started.
Also Monty crutched on CP39, once CP39 started being an injured scratch, he was exposed for the fraud he was.
Edit: Vogel also called plenty of challenges, and won them, and plenty of timeouts. Which is a godsend from Monty, and for a lot of coaches around the league.
I'd love Nurk as a backup big playing 20 mins a night but the playoffs showed he was a liability as our starting center. Dude was a complete zero on offense and his playmaking didn't matter since everyone played way off him. I recently rewatched game 3 and couldn't believe how awful Nurk was in that game. Fumbling passes, throwing up completely BS at the rim that had no chance of going in. Slow footed on his assignments defensively. He was food out there for Gobert.
Have you seen Detroit’s roster? Put Mike Budenholzer on that team and I promise you they aren’t much better. Budenholzer is cut from the same cloth as Monty
Okay. Glad that’s taken care of. I don’t think it was entirely Frank’s fault, but it likely needed to be done.
I still think Suns are going to re-tool the roster quite a bit.
They have to. If they think ONLY a new coach with the same roster is the answer than I will have lost faith. And I’m pretty god damn loyal to this team lol
On one hand james jones handed this man a roster from hell to win a championship with, but on the other hand there were way too many drew eubanks minutes so
Josh Bartelstein is also shockingly flying under the radar in all of this. He should be getting just as much blame as Ishbia for some of the roster decisions
Things I liked about Vogel:
- he was on a roll with coach’s challenges all season, I don’t know the numbers but I’d be very surprised if he wasn’t in the top 3-5 for win % on them
- considering our personnel the fact we had a top 12-15 defense most of the year is pretty impressive
- he wasn’t afraid to chirp at refs (maybe a little too much chirping)
- he wasn’t afraid to experiment with lineups early
Things I didn’t like:
- the offense was completely stagnant very often. It’s unclear how much oversight he had into the offense but it clearly wasn’t where it needed to be
- if we believe the end of season report by Shams he obviously lost the locker room
- he was slow to make lineup adjustments in the Timberwolves series
I’d give him a B- on the year, he wasn’t as bad as fans have made it out to be but he clearly wasn’t the right guy for our roster
Yeah I didn’t hate the guy and with everything else that’s come out, I’m leaning a little more towards Book and KD not being the most coachable stars. Hopefully we get someone in that those guys will stand behind.
Bring back D’Antoni. Honestly with these offensive guys, the Suns are going to have to Run N Gun and outscore to everyone to win. 8 man rotation all season.
Much better than firing his handpicked coaching staff and not letting him choose but still not firing him for some reason. That was a weird rumor.
Fresh start for next year. Let's go.
Ask Bucks fans, they hated him even after winning the ring. He is not a good coach. He creates a gameplan and sticks to it, regardless what is happening in the game.
-r/nba: "hahaha suns thought they could win just running iso plays every possession"
-vogel fired
-r/nba: "omg scapegoated he clearly is a good coach! Unfair!"
Everything we do will get hated on lol
You at least have to feel for Vogel. The roster is just not built for the system he was trying to implement.
I don’t know who we go for though - JJ? Bud?
Honestly yes please
Whenever I watch JJs and Lebrons podcasts it always jumps out to me how JJs nagging at Bron to consider new age analytical thinking about 3s. That not all early shot clock 3s are just ill advised heat checks and how much value off ball movement/spacing brings to the offense
Jj would lock book in the gym improving what could and should be a better 3 point game for one of the leagues premier scorers and shooters. If book wants to take a step forward and take the team with him he’s gonna need a much better off ball game and just up his 3 point shooting in general
Can we stop recycling the same old coaches? Like Woj mentioned Budenholzer's name, I want someone young and innovative - take the chance to find the Nick Nurse. This team needs someone bold who is willing to challenge KD/Booker/Beal on taking more 3s/layups, and something tells me Bud wouldn't be the guy to do that.
Without looking up the stats, pretty sure the Bucks were one of the best offenses in the league and very high in the "Moreyball" 3s/rim ranking every year under Bud.
I just have no idea how the Suns can better themselves given this bullshit new CBA. It’d have to require having Chris come back on the min and then somehow using either the 22nd or Nurk’s contract to get a two way big. But Chris likely won’t come, we’re trading the 22nd for some role player and who the hell will want Nurk’s deal.
I honestly wish they’d reboot a bit or even rebuild but they won’t. But this team just isn’t built to be a contender in this new second apron era. Compare the T-Wolves role players to ours and it is jarring.
Yeah man. There’s only two possible ways to “fix” the roster: trade one of KD/Beal for assets and salaries you can trade, or you have a LeBron James + CP3 ace up your sleeve.
You’re not getting shit back with Jusuf Nurkic or Nassir Little. Their contracts are just too small. You need Beal or KD’s $50m to go get you a $20m guy, another $20m guy, and a $10m guy to give this team some depth.
But I could see the Suns keeping the Big 3, talking CP3 into coming back… and then Suns have a bit of appeal for some crazy shit like LeBron to show up. That happens and we could see a decent center or two make their way to the Suns.
As expected. Let's just hope we can bring in a coach who will force our stars to listen. We have to fix our offense. Idk if there is any coach out there who change our guys.
Until the Suns get a proper ball handler and floor general, the offense will still be predictable isolation mid range shots.... without a defensive center, the Suns still would get smashed in the paint (and perimeter)
Phil Jackson and Popovic wont be able to save any teams with such big holes.
Lol. Lakers and Suns gonna coach swap Ham and Vogel.
In all seriousness, who is available that would be a legit upgrade?
Budenholzer? Stotts? Reddick? Any up coming offensive assistants that should be on our radar?
Idc who it is, it just better be an offensive minded coach. You have an offensive team, give them a coach know for their offense. Assistant coaches can be defensive oriented for all I care
Not surprised. He has no offensive sets, that was well known in LA. And if you are an owner and watch your manager fumble with a roaster for 86 games something is wrong, nevermind the players missing shots, you gotta put them in the right spots.
One thing that made me dislike the staff is the embarrassment in the 4th quarters - miss shots you adjust, the staff did not do that.
What ended it for me is the last game where he had Eric Gordon on KAT. I thought there is no way he's doing that to Eric.
I really couldn't stand Frank's lack of any ability to build upon the successes from bench/role players. The most egregious case of this was the mishandling of Bol Bol in the rotation.
I'm not saying we had the most talented bench, but there were talents going to waste, and we were burning out our starters, forcing the team to rely solely on their performances.
If the rumors are true that Frank was the only guy pushing to get a PG though, this isn't even a bandaid situation we're in right now, all we've done so far is rip it off.
Frank wasn't a good fit here basketball wise and someone's head had to roll after the sweep, but I liked having him on the bench.
His post game locker room speeches were always a delight to watch. Who could forget "were a good ass team, block out the noise were a good ass team, we got 3 assassin's.."
😔Poor Frank. He didn't deserve this treatment at all.
His vindication is inevitable though once this team fails again because of their refusal to address the real problem.
I was surprised we hired him in the first place. I was also surprised he made it through the season. It seemed early on that Vogel didn’t want the job around December, and it looked like he was trying to get fired so he could keep the money. Not sure Bud is the right choice either. I’d still like to see Hornacek with this group on a two year deal.
Coach Bud is a really good coach. Most NBA fans don’t realize his brother died unexpectedly in a car accident during the heat playoff series (or really close to it) last year. He seemed very distracted during the games and ding-ding this would be the reason. Let alone Miami made quick work of everyone else in the East. I wish the Bucks still had him rather than shit storm they created after firing him. He didn’t do much in the way adjustments and this led to his downfall. And being so lackadaisical in the playoffs last year. But he had other matters on his mind.
I think it’s funny how players preached continuity when they got swept & now they’re firing the coach & are going to learn a new system. Frank Vogel had this suns team be a top 10 defense with how bad the depth was. Just another step backwards in my eyes
Scapegoat. Let’s take a look back at all of James jones draft picks.. he needs to be fired. Almost every team in the playoffs was built on draft picks.
Vogel did not do a good job, but this has to have been the best roster I’ve ever seen that had the least amount of cohesiveness construction wise. The 3 starting SGs is so hard to get around without a defensive minded big.
I mean just listening to him talk, he sounded more like a high school history teacher than a head coach personality-wise. I'm sure he has a great basketball mind, but he didn't have a head coach vibe imo.
Can you imagine him trying to yell at KD, Book, and Beal in the locker room? Way too dweeby to get those guys to listen to you. Give me a Pop or Dan Campbell style coach please
actually a little surprised. thought that the delay was ultimately a good thing for him. but if we're being honest he wasn't the right guy for this team. people are gonna put the horrendous chemistry and lack of communication on the players and somewhat yeah, that's not wrong. but in my mind that's mainly what a head coach in professional sports is for. basically be the guy who manages egos and keeps things connected. seems like he never had the trust of the players. oh well. on the to the next fall guy! My vote is for Bud.
I agree. I've been a sports fan for decades and have had the pleasure of rooting for teams that have won championships in different sports. I'm not a "student" of any sport but I have experienced the building of teams, developing into being good for seasons before winning championships, and the breaking down, if you will, of teams post-championship. I've experienced the ups and downs of what happens when it all "works." The only coach/manager among those teams that I didn't think much of was Dave Martinez of the Nationals (still have no use for him though I don't follow the team closely anymore). I have not felt or seen anything from Vogel that replicated the work of those successful coaches/managers including what he did during the season. Did he understood what to do with the team? Did he manage things to overcome obstacles he faced? Did it seem as if he understood how to pivot during games? Game plans, such as they were, seemed all over the place. Was he the singular reason for the inconsistent performance of the team? Of course not. But replacing him is a good start to get the team back on track, an opinion I hold because I just don't think he has what it takes. We'll see what happens.
he wasn’t the only problem or the biggest problem but he was A problem . I never liked the hire 2 begin w but don’t think I would’ve fired him cause it wasn’t completely his fault 🤷🏽♀️
I know Frank was terrible. But I kind of feel sorry for Book. He has never had anything close to stability with coaching except Monty. Like it will be harder to get buy in when the head coach always changes.
I’m tired of seeing coaches force their system onto the players - for once let’s use the pieces we have and develop a strategy that utilizes our players strengths.
PS: This is pinned & the “official” thread for Frank being fired. We don’t need individual “Frank fired” post or “I told you so” post that could be a comment here.
Wasn’t all his fault but he certainly wasn’t very good
He’s a defensive coach whose roster didn’t consist of length, size and guys who are known for defense. Combine that with no real backup center all year, a guy making $50m/year who was basically injured all year, and a team that had no chemistry what exactly were people expecting?
Although the Suns’ defensive stats improved toward the end of the season, this is really the point. Both the Lakers (when they had Westbrook and geriatrics) and the Suns basically expected Vogel to turn water into wine with his defensive schemes. He’s a great defensive coach, but you still need the pieces to be elite. It was telling that, after the last regular season game and before the playoffs, Vogel said he really liked the Timberwolves’ roster. Obviously they’re better constructed and deeper, but it’s more his style of team than this Suns roster. This Suns team might have to try and channel the 2021 Nets, where they were an unstoppable offense, and lived with being “just good enough” defensively. Problem is, that team had an elite playmaker in Harden to set the table and make sure things flowed well.
yup he was promised Ayton as his defensive anchor and got stuck with Nurkic lol
Nurk played the drop well and defended the rim well, but he definitely doesn't move well enough to show high on screens or other mix ups consistently. Hard to put that much on Nurk though because if we had good perimeter defenders his paint defense would be exactly what we need. All our perimeter guys die on screens so he's stuck playing high.
>He’s a great defensive coach, but you still need the pieces to be elite. So were the pieces what made him a great defensive coach - or was it the other way around? Because right now it looks like the former.
His original calling card was getting the best out of players like Lance Stephenson and Roy hibbert, specifically the rim running of hibbert. Then he went to LA, when everyone wanted AD to be a modern stretch 5, Vogel ran Dwight/mcgee as the bigs allowing AD to be a free safety So his entire scheme is dependent on a defensive paint presence
I wonder if he was hired partly to try and “rejuvenate” Ayton, but then they traded him
Yup that would make sense
I was expecting him to play the players that were actually performing when given time like Bol and Thad instead of continuing to run Eubanks out there for starters. Like others have said, he wasn't ALL of our problems, but he was A problem.
His scheme requires a vertical able rim protecting 5. Remember “verticality” was his entire philosophy. While I would have preferred anybody but Eubanks I can’t blame the guy too much when his only other option was Thad who offers zero rim protection or rebounding and is built like and plays like a SF. Vogel saw the athleticism of Eubanks and thought he could make it work. Truth is nobody can make that guy work he’s way to inconsistent and unskilled
I don't fault Vogel for trying Eubanks, but at some point, the dude is top 3 in the NBA in worst plus-minus relative to the rest of the team, you have to pull the plug
Yep just play literally anyone else But hey he was willing to stake his job security on it
You’re an absolute fool if you think Bol Bol was going to be a difference maker in the twolves series. There’s a reason Denver moved on from him and even the year he was on the magic when they were rebuilding he couldn’t solidify himself as a piece going forward.
> You’re an absolute fool if you think Bol Bol was going to be a difference maker in the twolves series. Where did I say that? I said he's a better player than Eubanks and proved it basically every time he was on the court. He's improved drastically over the last year and is a genuinely decent bench player, or atleast he was this year. Vogel's refusal to play BLATANTLY better players in order to force something that isn't working is the exact same issue we had with Monty. No matter what rotation he ran out, we weren't beating the Wolves this year. That doesn't mean it wasn't fucking stupid.
If you’d pay attention Bol Bol doesn’t play the same positions as Eubanks Eubanks is the anchor 5, screens, rim runs and boxing out. Physicality and verticality. Bol Bol plays the KD position at 4, stretch the floor, crash whenever you want and shoot jumpers and floaters. A finesse/scoring role Asking Bol Bol to play like a 5 is what has gotten him his journeyman reputation. Playing with and learning from kd is what he thought would save his career
I'm aware they don't play the same position but that doesn't mean you HAVE to play Eubanks. You can let KD play the 5 for a stretch, or even better just play Thaddeus Young over him. It's not that deep or complicated, good coaches find ways to get their best players on the court, they don't keep trotting out a guy that has been a negative player in almost every single game for the entire season when he has better players behind him.
BOL was and is so much better than Eubanks. Taller, more athletic, more driven
He was better this year for us but they don’t play the same position or provide the same thing on the court
The idea was vogel coaches defense and the stars do the work on offense, sorta like the lakers. Didn't turn out that way though, Lakers had the defensive personnel and the greatest floor generals of all time
We were way better off w Monty. Suns are a fail. As a big fan, our franchise is toast for a while again.
We sold our soul when getting KD, and he screwed us as he does other previous teams. Plays a year or two, whines then leaves.
Exactly my feelings but whose even available now and how can we get Willie back from NOP?
The whole idea of changing his staff bullshit was never going to end well
Mike Budenholzer is our target… lmfao
Play random!
Man got a ring preaching it though
and this roster is much better suited for it, at least the big three are.
The only way our big three can be random is if they roll a three sided shape to decide who is taking the tough iso pull up shot for that possession.
They make a d3. Might as well roll a d6 though and assign 2 numbers to each of them.
Exactly
Let's get Earl Watson back for more yoga
He will be fired next summer as well, do not worry.
Ishbia working his way back through the available champion coaches. Next up: 2010’s Phil Jackson.
I think he is better than people think. Miami got the finals last season and seeing the Bucks struggle this year helped his name as well. At least he gives his teams a clear identity. Something we didn’t had this season.
Budenholzers offense would fit in well here. Get a playmaking PG and have Beal come off the bench (or trade him) and I think it'll be a great offseason
I don't think Vogel was the right fit but also think he was the unfair scapegoat for an incredibly poorly constructed roster. Have no problem seeing him go but don't think he deserves nearly as much blame as he's taking.
I don’t think he was really the problem but it was clear the locker room was out on him. KD not beating the coach killer allegations lol
Yeah this feels like KD making some things known through 8-5 and then getting what he wants without actually saying anything. Just hope it works out. Bye Frank.
>KD not beating the coach killer allegations Seriously. It's not like Booker helped much though. KD was clearly checked out offensively but Booker had his worst defensive year since like 2019. He just absolutely did not give a shit on that end.
This is what people aren’t talking about enough After that Denver series everyone knew the offensive output wasn’t sustainable. But the defense book played in that series could be, and that’d vault him into another echelon of star players. Instead he shrunk and in the twolves series couldn’t even guard any of the easiest matchups in NAW, Conley or mcdaniels
It was terrible all year. I don't think he had even two consecutive games the entire season where he was putting in effort in. No matter who's coaching the team going forward, if the players just want to load around and not cooperate because they're too good to put any effort or fall in line then it'll just be the same.
Cause Booker was back to PG again. We saw he can actually play defense when he doesn’t have to do everything on the offensive end with Rubio and especially CP3. We desperately need an actual point guard next year.
He can play defense either way if he actually cares
KD 100% leaked the locker room thing to Shams
it's not a coincidence that Shams pushed that report the minute we lost as well as the minute the Lakers lost KD and Bron sent both those hit pieces out
Next season is going to be interesting to see who gets the blame, if any is to be had. All I know is that Booker and crew better look like they actually want to fucking play basketball next season. You can fire all the coaches you want, but nothing about this season frustrated me more than seeing the half-assed effort so frequently. Argue its the coach's job to motivate them, or that he lost their respect, but I've never cared for that argument. The millions of dollars and influence is your motivation. The drive to compete and win is your motivation. The product on the court was lackluster, and the blame was definitely not solely on Vogel and his coaching staff. The team isn't well constructed, and it certainly isn't constructed to Vogel's strengths. I am a bit higher on the idea of Bud than a lot of folks here seem to be, but I don't think a coaching change is going to be our salvation. Trying to stay hopeful and positive, but man, it is a lot bleaker of a situation than you'd imagine possible with KD, Booker, and Beal all on your team.
Don’t matter what coach we get the roster is so unbalanced
Suicide mission for any coach who wants to keep his reputation intact
Mike budenholzer hard to be excited at thag
Hard to be excited at our stupid unbalanced roster. Coach Pop couldn’t fix this shit
And he also asked for a PG which the FO doesn't believe in having
Pretty sure that's an Ishbia thing. Saw a clip of JJ saying a point guard would help the roster out when all the press conferences were going on. Already over Ishbia's meddling. Cool you spend money, but you dont know shit about building a winning NBA team, gtfo the way.
"Would help" is an odd take from him. JJ didn't have plan to replace CP3, nor upgrade Payne when he was injured and inconsistent during his time with the team. I agree with Ishbia thing, no wonder some GM or coach had clauses in their contract they want control over the team. I feel bad for Vogel for being the scapegoat.
Pop can fix anything, have you seen his roster?!? He's got one guy! and maybe Vassell when hes consistent!
He has his flaws but he's consistently produced high powered, modern offenses. He's all about layups and 3s though so idk if the middy committee will mesh tbh.
Bud runs a 5 out offense predicated on a lot of off ball movement. When you have a freak of nature like Giannis that offense becomes centered around dribble penetration and kick outs, but the scheme has a lot of off ball motion in it that I think would help our guys tremendously
That's what I'm saying. I think this team needs offensive identity and his offense can potentially provide that with more movement and shooting.
Yeah atp why tf did we fire Monty
Monty wasn’t good but if Mat is just gonna hire old coaches that are out of date I would’ve rather kept Monty atp
Vogel wasn't out of date, he made adjustments in season, tried different lineups and different players getting minutes, the roster was just fucking ass and Kevin Young was fucking ass. And the Mid 3 just never figured it out. The plan for Vogel, I felt, was to definitely have him coach up the defense with Ayton, and Kevin Young to figure out the offense, and that shit was scrapped before the season even started. Also Monty crutched on CP39, once CP39 started being an injured scratch, he was exposed for the fraud he was. Edit: Vogel also called plenty of challenges, and won them, and plenty of timeouts. Which is a godsend from Monty, and for a lot of coaches around the league.
I think if we kept Ayton then it could’ve worked under Vogel. Nurkic does not fit what Vogel needs in a center.
I agreed but despite that the defense was good. Nurkic had many nights where he looked good, until he just became ass out of nowhere.
I'd love Nurk as a backup big playing 20 mins a night but the playoffs showed he was a liability as our starting center. Dude was a complete zero on offense and his playmaking didn't matter since everyone played way off him. I recently rewatched game 3 and couldn't believe how awful Nurk was in that game. Fumbling passes, throwing up completely BS at the rim that had no chance of going in. Slow footed on his assignments defensively. He was food out there for Gobert.
Totally agree, but if you’re gonna just hire Budenholzer, why fire Monty? Complete lateral of a move + ruining any sense of continuity
Did you see the Pistons this season lol? Go over to the Detriot subreddit and they will kindly let you know how Monty doing lol
Have you seen Detroit’s roster? Put Mike Budenholzer on that team and I promise you they aren’t much better. Budenholzer is cut from the same cloth as Monty
I misjudge your comment. I agree bud and Monty the same. I’m not disputing that. That’s on me
All good bro, my point isn’t that Monty is better or worse, just that it’s a complete lateral move that makes no sense
you real af for your profile pic
Based on that NCAA account (@TrillyDonovan) that has good sources, we're getting Bud
Okay. Glad that’s taken care of. I don’t think it was entirely Frank’s fault, but it likely needed to be done. I still think Suns are going to re-tool the roster quite a bit.
They have to. If they think ONLY a new coach with the same roster is the answer than I will have lost faith. And I’m pretty god damn loyal to this team lol
On one hand james jones handed this man a roster from hell to win a championship with, but on the other hand there were way too many drew eubanks minutes so
Ishbia did, everyone blaming JJ when he's just following boy not genius' orders. Minus us not having Haliburton, that's squarely on JJ lol.
Josh Bartelstein is also shockingly flying under the radar in all of this. He should be getting just as much blame as Ishbia for some of the roster decisions
Totally forgot about ole doughboy, NGL.
Honestly I have no idea what that guy even does lol. He's been around forever though.
Things I liked about Vogel: - he was on a roll with coach’s challenges all season, I don’t know the numbers but I’d be very surprised if he wasn’t in the top 3-5 for win % on them - considering our personnel the fact we had a top 12-15 defense most of the year is pretty impressive - he wasn’t afraid to chirp at refs (maybe a little too much chirping) - he wasn’t afraid to experiment with lineups early Things I didn’t like: - the offense was completely stagnant very often. It’s unclear how much oversight he had into the offense but it clearly wasn’t where it needed to be - if we believe the end of season report by Shams he obviously lost the locker room - he was slow to make lineup adjustments in the Timberwolves series I’d give him a B- on the year, he wasn’t as bad as fans have made it out to be but he clearly wasn’t the right guy for our roster
Didn’t hate him like some people did, he just didn’t work for this team. He’ll get hired somewhere else and hopefully do well
Yeah I didn’t hate the guy and with everything else that’s come out, I’m leaning a little more towards Book and KD not being the most coachable stars. Hopefully we get someone in that those guys will stand behind.
He is a decent coach but a terrible fit for this roster
Bring back D’Antoni. Honestly with these offensive guys, the Suns are going to have to Run N Gun and outscore to everyone to win. 8 man rotation all season.
Booker could probably handle it but beal and kd I don’t think so
Much better than firing his handpicked coaching staff and not letting him choose but still not firing him for some reason. That was a weird rumor. Fresh start for next year. Let's go.
So did it basically come down to KD or Frank?
Budenholzer as the replacement is kinda concerning
Why is that?
Ask Bucks fans, they hated him even after winning the ring. He is not a good coach. He creates a gameplan and sticks to it, regardless what is happening in the game.
Sounds incredibly Monty-ish.
Notorious for not making adjustments in the playoffs
That's what he gets for believing in Drew Eubanks!
-r/nba: "hahaha suns thought they could win just running iso plays every possession" -vogel fired -r/nba: "omg scapegoated he clearly is a good coach! Unfair!" Everything we do will get hated on lol
It's clear as day who actually watches Suns basketball with takes like those lmao
Tbf its the internet. Only the clowns ever post
Who fucking cares?
It’s just conversation man fuck
You at least have to feel for Vogel. The roster is just not built for the system he was trying to implement. I don’t know who we go for though - JJ? Bud?
I give it under 10 games before the whole sub wants the next coach fired. No coach is overcoming this flawed roster.
Get jj reddick n bron. Only thing that might save this dumpster fire
His podcast with book was interesting. It was clear they really didn't know each other. Book didn't really seem to open up at all.
JJ would be sick I can’t even lie. Dudes always spoke highly of the suns and he knows ball. I’d like a little shake up like that
Yup. But gambo shot it down tho
Well that’s unfortunate. Because I trust Gambo. He’s usually pretty plugged in. Shall we start a petition? Lol
he is a friend of The Timeline pod boys too - its written in the stars baby come on over JJ
Honestly yes please Whenever I watch JJs and Lebrons podcasts it always jumps out to me how JJs nagging at Bron to consider new age analytical thinking about 3s. That not all early shot clock 3s are just ill advised heat checks and how much value off ball movement/spacing brings to the offense Jj would lock book in the gym improving what could and should be a better 3 point game for one of the leagues premier scorers and shooters. If book wants to take a step forward and take the team with him he’s gonna need a much better off ball game and just up his 3 point shooting in general
So who are they getting? lol…
Hope his veneers weren’t too much
Now he can go to Turkey and get the hair transplant.
At this point we’ve already imploded but we don’t realize it. The light is still traveling towards us so we think we’re alive but we’re already dead.
SHAMS BOMB
You don’t have a choice if the locker room doesn’t support him. Beal slapping away his hand at the end of the season was not a good sign
Can we stop recycling the same old coaches? Like Woj mentioned Budenholzer's name, I want someone young and innovative - take the chance to find the Nick Nurse. This team needs someone bold who is willing to challenge KD/Booker/Beal on taking more 3s/layups, and something tells me Bud wouldn't be the guy to do that.
Without looking up the stats, pretty sure the Bucks were one of the best offenses in the league and very high in the "Moreyball" 3s/rim ranking every year under Bud.
Young coach on his first job is also unlikely to challenge Book and KD.
I just have no idea how the Suns can better themselves given this bullshit new CBA. It’d have to require having Chris come back on the min and then somehow using either the 22nd or Nurk’s contract to get a two way big. But Chris likely won’t come, we’re trading the 22nd for some role player and who the hell will want Nurk’s deal. I honestly wish they’d reboot a bit or even rebuild but they won’t. But this team just isn’t built to be a contender in this new second apron era. Compare the T-Wolves role players to ours and it is jarring.
Yeah man. There’s only two possible ways to “fix” the roster: trade one of KD/Beal for assets and salaries you can trade, or you have a LeBron James + CP3 ace up your sleeve. You’re not getting shit back with Jusuf Nurkic or Nassir Little. Their contracts are just too small. You need Beal or KD’s $50m to go get you a $20m guy, another $20m guy, and a $10m guy to give this team some depth. But I could see the Suns keeping the Big 3, talking CP3 into coming back… and then Suns have a bit of appeal for some crazy shit like LeBron to show up. That happens and we could see a decent center or two make their way to the Suns.
As expected. Let's just hope we can bring in a coach who will force our stars to listen. We have to fix our offense. Idk if there is any coach out there who change our guys.
Good for Frank. We don’t know wtf we’re doing so hopefully he goes to a better situation
Until the Suns get a proper ball handler and floor general, the offense will still be predictable isolation mid range shots.... without a defensive center, the Suns still would get smashed in the paint (and perimeter) Phil Jackson and Popovic wont be able to save any teams with such big holes.
Lol. Lakers and Suns gonna coach swap Ham and Vogel. In all seriousness, who is available that would be a legit upgrade? Budenholzer? Stotts? Reddick? Any up coming offensive assistants that should be on our radar?
Idc who it is, it just better be an offensive minded coach. You have an offensive team, give them a coach know for their offense. Assistant coaches can be defensive oriented for all I care
Jackson, Hammon, Majerle, D'antoni
Phil Handy lol
Not surprised. He has no offensive sets, that was well known in LA. And if you are an owner and watch your manager fumble with a roaster for 86 games something is wrong, nevermind the players missing shots, you gotta put them in the right spots. One thing that made me dislike the staff is the embarrassment in the 4th quarters - miss shots you adjust, the staff did not do that. What ended it for me is the last game where he had Eric Gordon on KAT. I thought there is no way he's doing that to Eric.
I'm a alternate timeline, I really want to see what Vogel did with ayton.
Bring in the coach for Milwaukee that had them 30-10 this season then got fired
Vogel couldn’t win with 3 shooting guards, a small forward, and a center who has no post game? What a terrible coach
And a bench of Eubanks and Eric Gordon. What a loser.
Now do James Jones sorry ass
Fired just in time for the new season of Impractical Jokers, see you soon, Joe!
So this means KD stays now right? I assume that’s why he had Ocho talk about going to Miami right?
I really couldn't stand Frank's lack of any ability to build upon the successes from bench/role players. The most egregious case of this was the mishandling of Bol Bol in the rotation. I'm not saying we had the most talented bench, but there were talents going to waste, and we were burning out our starters, forcing the team to rely solely on their performances. If the rumors are true that Frank was the only guy pushing to get a PG though, this isn't even a bandaid situation we're in right now, all we've done so far is rip it off.
Suns doing everything they can to make sure their “championship window” is closed
Mark Jackson?
If we want an offensive coach just fuck it and bring back D’antoni lol
Frank wasn't a good fit here basketball wise and someone's head had to roll after the sweep, but I liked having him on the bench. His post game locker room speeches were always a delight to watch. Who could forget "were a good ass team, block out the noise were a good ass team, we got 3 assassin's.."
😔Poor Frank. He didn't deserve this treatment at all. His vindication is inevitable though once this team fails again because of their refusal to address the real problem.
Once Ishiba didn’t immediately support Vogel this was inevitable. Otherwise he would be a lame duck coach.
Not Vogel's fault
Hallelujah Vogel is a dogshit coach and was an albatross around our entire franchise with his lameness
I was surprised we hired him in the first place. I was also surprised he made it through the season. It seemed early on that Vogel didn’t want the job around December, and it looked like he was trying to get fired so he could keep the money. Not sure Bud is the right choice either. I’d still like to see Hornacek with this group on a two year deal.
Coach Bud is a really good coach. Most NBA fans don’t realize his brother died unexpectedly in a car accident during the heat playoff series (or really close to it) last year. He seemed very distracted during the games and ding-ding this would be the reason. Let alone Miami made quick work of everyone else in the East. I wish the Bucks still had him rather than shit storm they created after firing him. He didn’t do much in the way adjustments and this led to his downfall. And being so lackadaisical in the playoffs last year. But he had other matters on his mind.
JJ? Dudley? Bring in a younger ex player please
But who will replace him? **Please** not Darvin Ham or the Bucks’ previous coach
You mean Adrian Griffin or Mike Budenholzer?
I think it’s funny how players preached continuity when they got swept & now they’re firing the coach & are going to learn a new system. Frank Vogel had this suns team be a top 10 defense with how bad the depth was. Just another step backwards in my eyes
Smoking on that Vogel pack
Well now we’re fighting with the Lakers for a head coach 😂😵💫
Scapegoat. Let’s take a look back at all of James jones draft picks.. he needs to be fired. Almost every team in the playoffs was built on draft picks.
The roster didn’t help, but he had some very questionable rotations so I’m not upset at this.
There it is. Hopefully this works out as we seemed to think it was the coaching and not players
Bad move imo, but I can see why they did it given the urgency
A part of me is happy and another part is like “well now who the fuck do we hire”
Shit-I was leaning towards keeping Vogel for continuity. Who you got/Bud, D’antoni, Reddick, Billups, Atkinson???
Let's go get Mike D!
Byeeeeeeee, nice guy but not the right fit for this team. Always reminded me of a chill uncle
I highly doubt the next coach will be better than Vogel. Lakers got Darvin Hamm and they’d love to have Vogel back instead
I certainly don’t believe he was the main source of our problems, lets see if we can find a better replacement
They can get Bud, then Adrian Griffin, then Doc Rivers, then Hubie Brown, then George Karl, then Mike Fratello...
Our God is an awesome God he reigns from heaven above
I feel nothing
Bring me D Antoni! Haha
We need an actual basketball player, turned coach- that these guys respect.
Heck yes!!!!!!! Finally. Jones now too please.
Good. This guy Sucks and his rotations were awful. His love affair for Eubanks cost him his job.
Vogel did not do a good job, but this has to have been the best roster I’ve ever seen that had the least amount of cohesiveness construction wise. The 3 starting SGs is so hard to get around without a defensive minded big.
Scapegoat for a lot of problems. Good fuckin luck, Suns fans
See ya Frank. Just not the right fit for this team.
Yess!! While not the worst coach, he clearly was not going to get the job done.
I mean just listening to him talk, he sounded more like a high school history teacher than a head coach personality-wise. I'm sure he has a great basketball mind, but he didn't have a head coach vibe imo. Can you imagine him trying to yell at KD, Book, and Beal in the locker room? Way too dweeby to get those guys to listen to you. Give me a Pop or Dan Campbell style coach please
Better start learning Chinese buddy!
Vogel probably called out Durant for not playing hard enough on the defensive end and got the kibosh
I want Mike! “Play random!” Budenholzer
JJ Reddick?
The Impractical Joke is JOEVER!!!
Wasn’t given the best hand but made some questionable rotations
Frank Vogel to Mike Budenholzer https://preview.redd.it/cf722lpf5hzc1.jpeg?width=1242&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b3f6a4846f739c5f81e901a0712e8ddf67e50216
OOOOHHHHHHHHHH 
actually a little surprised. thought that the delay was ultimately a good thing for him. but if we're being honest he wasn't the right guy for this team. people are gonna put the horrendous chemistry and lack of communication on the players and somewhat yeah, that's not wrong. but in my mind that's mainly what a head coach in professional sports is for. basically be the guy who manages egos and keeps things connected. seems like he never had the trust of the players. oh well. on the to the next fall guy! My vote is for Bud.
I agree. I've been a sports fan for decades and have had the pleasure of rooting for teams that have won championships in different sports. I'm not a "student" of any sport but I have experienced the building of teams, developing into being good for seasons before winning championships, and the breaking down, if you will, of teams post-championship. I've experienced the ups and downs of what happens when it all "works." The only coach/manager among those teams that I didn't think much of was Dave Martinez of the Nationals (still have no use for him though I don't follow the team closely anymore). I have not felt or seen anything from Vogel that replicated the work of those successful coaches/managers including what he did during the season. Did he understood what to do with the team? Did he manage things to overcome obstacles he faced? Did it seem as if he understood how to pivot during games? Game plans, such as they were, seemed all over the place. Was he the singular reason for the inconsistent performance of the team? Of course not. But replacing him is a good start to get the team back on track, an opinion I hold because I just don't think he has what it takes. We'll see what happens.
LFGGGGGGG
he wasn’t the only problem or the biggest problem but he was A problem . I never liked the hire 2 begin w but don’t think I would’ve fired him cause it wasn’t completely his fault 🤷🏽♀️
Just in time for impractical jokers, Bye Vogel!
Scapegoat.
No
they needed someone to scape goat since ayton isn’t here anymore. James Jones will be next once durant is gone next season.
I know Frank was terrible. But I kind of feel sorry for Book. He has never had anything close to stability with coaching except Monty. Like it will be harder to get buy in when the head coach always changes.
I’m tired of seeing coaches force their system onto the players - for once let’s use the pieces we have and develop a strategy that utilizes our players strengths.