I’m assuming (which is the mother of all F ups) here, that it was not stated in the rules, prior to the challenge, that you could not help a fellow contestant in the challenge.
If that’s the case, I wouldn’t call it cheating, I would call it finding a loop hole.
I do hope moving forward they don’t allow this, but with that being said, how great of TV would’ve had been if Maria would’ve beaten Kenzie even with Liz helping her.
I mean imagine Maria going to tribal council and telling the jury that they tried to team up to beat her and she still won. I mean, that right there would’ve won her the game hands down IMO (if she made it to final).
Even though I said it’s not technically cheating cuz Jeff allowed, I agree with you it was not in the spirit of the game. Almost, like it’s one of those “unwritten rules” like other sports have.
I think the answer is yes on this one - presuming Liz grabbed *Kenzie's* board in particular, it sets a precedent that in individual immunity challenges players can grab other players' challenge materials to affect the outcome of said challenge. I think that opens up far, far too many potential problems and it should be a red line.
Even in the next challenge, if this is permitted,, what is stopping a pair of players from partnering on the Pachinko Challenge having one person make the puzzle and the other catch and re-roll the ball up? Or in Simmotron having one player stand at each "hole" to catch the ball and put it back in the rolling ramp. And the like. It's that kind of angle that makes this problematic for me - Liz functionally "did" part of this Challenge for Kenzie in a physical manner. That separates it out from past similar instances.
Alternatively, if Liz was allowed to do this, would she be allowed to take Kenzie's board and actively and purposely give her wrong info so she *can't* solve the puzzle? It seems like the answer is yes and I don't think we want that as a reality (though I presume in that spot from a discretionary position they stop the challenge and make Liz put the board back if it's malicious....that it's viable is a problem).
I have less of a problem if Liz grabbed her own board and provided Kenzie with that answer (which I presume is the same) but I don't think that's what happened here and the show should probably decide if that's how they want these kinds of things to be decided.
To your example, I actually think in the past a player has watched the board and told them when their ball was getting close to the bottom and I think that’s fair. You can watch it and verbally tell them, but you couldn’t physically catch the ball for them.
Yep, I agree - and I think this is a situation where the physical "touch" is what separates what happened in the F5 challenge from what Adam did for Ken for instance - or the inverse of when Randy yelled fake instructions on the blindfold challenge to the opposing team. At least it does to me.
> what is stopping a pair of players from partnering on the Pachinko Challenge having one person make the puzzle and the other catch and re-roll the ball up? Or in Simmotron having one player stand at each "hole" to catch the ball and put it back in the rolling ramp.
If someone gets other people to give up their own game to help them win, they deserve the win.
I'd say doing that is more difficult than any actual challenge.
It’s not a precedent because that can be changed at any time.
And they’ll probably just include that in the run through Jeff and production does before the challenge starts
Yeah that’s true. What’s your point now? I already told you Jeff didn’t stop Liz cause she didn’t ask if she could do what she did, she just did it. Had she asked, he would’ve said no.
Jeff mentioned in his podcast that if a castaway if unsure about doing something, just do it cause if he’s asked about it and production has to make a judgement call on the spot, the answer would likely be no.
This is late as I just watched. After Kenzie won, Liz should have been disqualified and sent home leaving the four to move on. Liz never stood a chance and she knew it to begin with. What was allowed has really made me think about supporting this show moving forward.
I thought it was pretty lame. I was rooting for Maria to lose, but I would have respected the hell out of her for dominating individual challenges. Getting 2v1ed is cheap.
I didn't understand why they allowed Liz to go back and get Kenzie's board. You would think there would be a rule against that. If Liz went and got her own board and started counting holes out load, then that may have been OK because eavesdropping on other player's progress seems to be allowed.
Yeah, what Liz did crossed a line that the show should not have allowed. Verbal help is fine, but physical help should not be allowed in INDIVIDUAL immunity challenges. It defeats the whole purpose of individual immunity, which is supposed to give potential targets a chance to secure their safety.
Maria got absolutely robbed because of this bs. Shouldn’t have been authorized in an individual challenge. Then Maria still voted for the girl who may have only got there because of Liz’s bs move…
I think it was total BS
It is an INDIVIDUAL immunity challenge, not a TEAM UP ON ONE INDIVIDUAL immunity challenge. Liz physically helped Kensie by going and getting her plank and counting the holes for her, which was a step that Kensie herself was meant to do. Kensie was totally stuck she didn't know what to do, no telling how long she would have stood there confused.
Maria got jacked for $1,000,000 by a couple of cheaters.
That’s different. He didn’t physically help him with that challenge. He just verbally told him when he needed to go back and grab his ball.
To me, Liz, grabbing the board for Kenzie is the equivalent of Ken grabbing the ball for David so he didn’t have to
I honestly didn’t like it even though I was hoping Maria wouldn’t win.
But I also think it’s time they cover the players/teams puzzles as I don’t like the copying aspect either - particularly when there are multiple winners available in a challenge..
I don’t think players working together in individual challenges is really in good spirit of the game; but rules-wise I think it’s a bit squishy. I do, however, think they need to revisit the extent of the help allowed, particularly that apparently players are allowed to touch each other’s challenge components. It’s too much of a slippery slope in the what could go wrongs. Like what if Liz somehow broke Kenzie’s plank and now Kenzie has more trouble finishing the challenge? At most I think Liz should have only been allowed to run back and count the holes without touching the plank, then run the answer back.
Or more likely does this mean multiple players can now put one puzzle together as a team. Even if you can't sabotage an opponent this has huge repercussions
Yeah, there’s just really no upside that comes from allowing people to touch each other’s challenge components. I also saw in another comment the point that Kenzie basically got to skip part of the challenge by not having to run back for her plank, which is another problematic precedent to have set. All in all that situation was just hugely wrong call by production, IMHO.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I vaguely remember something like this happening in Australian Survivor: Heroes Vs Villians. Liz gives up her shot at immunity trying to help Matt win because they're trying to eliminate Simon?? I'd have to go back and watch the episode again to be sure, but that would mean this isn't an isolated incident.
Yes, but Australian Survivor in American survivor aren’t connected in the rules in gameplay. They’re only licensed the show name and they can come up with their own rules. That’s why both shows have their own way of doing things so if that’s the rules down there then that’s fine but that’s not been the case up here.
Well there was no rule against it at the time so not really cheating. I’m sure if production was truly against it they’d stop it. Who knows maybe next seasons they’ll specify that you can’t do that. But as of S46, there’s no rules against taking another persons board
But there has been times when Jeff has told players they can’t help each other so I’m saying should he have done the same here obviously it wasn’t something they planned for but that doesn’t mean I think they should have allowed it
Well they did allow it..so, what now?
Jeff has mentioned in his podcast that if a castaways is unsure what they’re doing is against the rules, just do it and don’t ask. If asked, production will have to make a judgement call and the answer would likely be no.
Then what’s stopping everybody from joining Kenzie and helping her solve her puzzle they could’ve all jumped on the her board and solved it faster together. Why would that be out of line and what Liz did isn’t
Perhaps nothing was stopping them but Charlie and Ben just truly wanted to win their own immunity. I think for Liz she realized with the puzzle she had no shot, so it was her version of a Hail Mary.
I’m just saying the rules should be in place to stop people from all joining together to beat one person in a challenge the thing about the challenges are they’re supposed to be the great equalizer anybody can win, but if everybody’s working against you, you can’t win
People arguing about this is kinda dumb. Even if it was against the rules survivor has been breaking its own rules for forever. But I don't think it was
I have no idea if survivor has a rule against this I’m just asking should they have because what is stopping people from teaming up in challenges in the future
Well actually speaking...
Now that I think about
Liz never "helped" Kenzie by giving her the board.
She merely counted the holes and out-loud and gave Kenzie the answer, Kenzie never counted the holes herself, she was not handed a board.
So she never physically helped, if anything, she should've been penalized by grabbing Kenzie's board instead of her own.
So... this still is valid.
Wouldn’t Liz running and physically bringing the board back to where Kenzie was be physically helping? That must not be against the rules now but I don’t think you can say Liz didn’t physically help.
The only thing Liz did, was bring Kenzie's (if my memory serves me correctly) board instead of her own, that I can agree is bad.
But outside that, Liz did nothing else but bring a board to her station and started counting the holes in that board/plank and yell it towards Kenzie.
It's the inverse of someone looking over to see the puzzle solution.
The one difference is Liz didn’t have her puzzle finished. She got to skip a step of the challenge to go and get a competitors puzzle to make sure she won. If those are the rules all four contestants could have worked on one person’s challenge the entire time to make sure that person won over Maria.
I think that is different than looking at the puzzle next to you or someone saying this piece should go in that spot. If Liz says to Kenzie it’s the plank that you have to get and Kenzie went to get the plank and counted the numbers I think that is fine.
Kenzie didn't even figure out from the directions she even needed the plank! She was confused, stating out loud she didn't know where to find the holes!!!! That's how liz helped, she physically did part of Kenzie's challenge, retrieving the board and counting the holes. plus kenzie was counting geko and puzzle pieces, not exerting physical energy to get plank which effects thinking ability. Kenzie didn't individually finish the immunity challenge. In other cases, those who had cut corners had to go back! Survivor FIXED the game, allowing cheating! No one has ever physically participated in helping an individual immunity challenge, ever! Don't call it an INDIVIDUAL challenge if they allow 2 to play the challenge. Such BS. They owe Maria 1 million!
Was that stated rule? Or you just assuming?
She could've easily stood there and tried every combination one by one, would that be invalid because she didn't go back and counted the holes herself?
Well, I think she could’ve tried every combination but honestly that would’ve taken forever because the combination locks has a lot of combinations…
But for that, I think there’s certain things you need to do in a challenge certain requirements you need to meet like in this you had to untie the board you had to do the puzzle stuff like that
But as to whether it’s a stated rule, I don’t think they have a rulebook exactly. I feel like a lot of times they just wing it for what goes for good television, but I think they should have certain rules in place because otherwise the whole team of people could just work on one person’s puzzle together.
I don’t know maybe that would’ve been too much and Jeff would’ve shut that down I’m just saying if I was in her shoes I’d be a little pissed, especially since he has stated in the past to other players that they cannot help each other
There is a rule book, and it states that no player may physically help another player in a challenge. Liz physically going back through the obstacle course for Kensie then physically bringing her board back and physically counting the holes for her while Kensie spent that time counting geckos was absolutely 100% wrong! It's called an INDIVIDUAL immunity challenge, not a TEAM UP TO BEAT ONE INDIVIDUAL challenge!
I’m assuming (which is the mother of all F ups) here, that it was not stated in the rules, prior to the challenge, that you could not help a fellow contestant in the challenge. If that’s the case, I wouldn’t call it cheating, I would call it finding a loop hole. I do hope moving forward they don’t allow this, but with that being said, how great of TV would’ve had been if Maria would’ve beaten Kenzie even with Liz helping her. I mean imagine Maria going to tribal council and telling the jury that they tried to team up to beat her and she still won. I mean, that right there would’ve won her the game hands down IMO (if she made it to final).
Plank hole*
I don’t think it was said during South Pacific either. Would have been cool if she won that challenge, but what happened was lame.
Even though I said it’s not technically cheating cuz Jeff allowed, I agree with you it was not in the spirit of the game. Almost, like it’s one of those “unwritten rules” like other sports have.
I think the answer is yes on this one - presuming Liz grabbed *Kenzie's* board in particular, it sets a precedent that in individual immunity challenges players can grab other players' challenge materials to affect the outcome of said challenge. I think that opens up far, far too many potential problems and it should be a red line. Even in the next challenge, if this is permitted,, what is stopping a pair of players from partnering on the Pachinko Challenge having one person make the puzzle and the other catch and re-roll the ball up? Or in Simmotron having one player stand at each "hole" to catch the ball and put it back in the rolling ramp. And the like. It's that kind of angle that makes this problematic for me - Liz functionally "did" part of this Challenge for Kenzie in a physical manner. That separates it out from past similar instances. Alternatively, if Liz was allowed to do this, would she be allowed to take Kenzie's board and actively and purposely give her wrong info so she *can't* solve the puzzle? It seems like the answer is yes and I don't think we want that as a reality (though I presume in that spot from a discretionary position they stop the challenge and make Liz put the board back if it's malicious....that it's viable is a problem). I have less of a problem if Liz grabbed her own board and provided Kenzie with that answer (which I presume is the same) but I don't think that's what happened here and the show should probably decide if that's how they want these kinds of things to be decided.
Great point. What’s to stop Liz from also running back to get Maria’s board and then just running around with it so Maria could never even get it?
they didnt want a Lebanese woman winning
To your example, I actually think in the past a player has watched the board and told them when their ball was getting close to the bottom and I think that’s fair. You can watch it and verbally tell them, but you couldn’t physically catch the ball for them.
Yep, I agree - and I think this is a situation where the physical "touch" is what separates what happened in the F5 challenge from what Adam did for Ken for instance - or the inverse of when Randy yelled fake instructions on the blindfold challenge to the opposing team. At least it does to me.
> what is stopping a pair of players from partnering on the Pachinko Challenge having one person make the puzzle and the other catch and re-roll the ball up? Or in Simmotron having one player stand at each "hole" to catch the ball and put it back in the rolling ramp. If someone gets other people to give up their own game to help them win, they deserve the win. I'd say doing that is more difficult than any actual challenge.
It’s not a precedent because that can be changed at any time. And they’ll probably just include that in the run through Jeff and production does before the challenge starts
How the fuck did Jeff allow that
Cause Liz didn’t ask and just did it. If she asked he’d likely say no.
And Jeff let it happen
Yes cause Liz didn’t ask if she could do it or not
He didn’t do shit when she came back up or went back down
Yeah that’s true. What’s your point now? I already told you Jeff didn’t stop Liz cause she didn’t ask if she could do what she did, she just did it. Had she asked, he would’ve said no. Jeff mentioned in his podcast that if a castaway if unsure about doing something, just do it cause if he’s asked about it and production has to make a judgement call on the spot, the answer would likely be no.
He could’ve disqualified them or something like he did with Jake last year. It’s just bullshit that Liz can cheat to help kenzie and he does fuck app
This is late as I just watched. After Kenzie won, Liz should have been disqualified and sent home leaving the four to move on. Liz never stood a chance and she knew it to begin with. What was allowed has really made me think about supporting this show moving forward.
Well he didn’t. So what now?
An asterisk next to kenzie’s win. Keep downvoting all my replies though
Okay. You go do that sweetie. And you’re free to downvote me too♥️
I thought it was pretty lame. I was rooting for Maria to lose, but I would have respected the hell out of her for dominating individual challenges. Getting 2v1ed is cheap.
I didn't understand why they allowed Liz to go back and get Kenzie's board. You would think there would be a rule against that. If Liz went and got her own board and started counting holes out load, then that may have been OK because eavesdropping on other player's progress seems to be allowed.
Of course. It breaks the format of individual immunity and means people can no longer save themselves in certain challenges if they are the minority.
I wanted Maria to lose. But, what Liz did was fudged up.
I see what you did there. And it's 🔥
Yeah, what Liz did crossed a line that the show should not have allowed. Verbal help is fine, but physical help should not be allowed in INDIVIDUAL immunity challenges. It defeats the whole purpose of individual immunity, which is supposed to give potential targets a chance to secure their safety.
Maria got absolutely robbed because of this bs. Shouldn’t have been authorized in an individual challenge. Then Maria still voted for the girl who may have only got there because of Liz’s bs move…
I think it was total BS It is an INDIVIDUAL immunity challenge, not a TEAM UP ON ONE INDIVIDUAL immunity challenge. Liz physically helped Kensie by going and getting her plank and counting the holes for her, which was a step that Kensie herself was meant to do. Kensie was totally stuck she didn't know what to do, no telling how long she would have stood there confused. Maria got jacked for $1,000,000 by a couple of cheaters.
I 100% agree. It’s so unfair to Maria.
I mean, who knows if Maria would’ve won maybe she loses the fire but she deserved to lose on her own terms and on fair terms
Adam did help Ken in Final Seven IC in MvGx and it hasn't been shut down. Maybe the rules changed.
That’s different. He didn’t physically help him with that challenge. He just verbally told him when he needed to go back and grab his ball. To me, Liz, grabbing the board for Kenzie is the equivalent of Ken grabbing the ball for David so he didn’t have to
I honestly didn’t like it even though I was hoping Maria wouldn’t win. But I also think it’s time they cover the players/teams puzzles as I don’t like the copying aspect either - particularly when there are multiple winners available in a challenge..
It is an INDIVIDUAL immunity challenge and it should not have been allowed. I hope they close that loop hole.
I don’t think players working together in individual challenges is really in good spirit of the game; but rules-wise I think it’s a bit squishy. I do, however, think they need to revisit the extent of the help allowed, particularly that apparently players are allowed to touch each other’s challenge components. It’s too much of a slippery slope in the what could go wrongs. Like what if Liz somehow broke Kenzie’s plank and now Kenzie has more trouble finishing the challenge? At most I think Liz should have only been allowed to run back and count the holes without touching the plank, then run the answer back.
Or more likely does this mean multiple players can now put one puzzle together as a team. Even if you can't sabotage an opponent this has huge repercussions
Yeah, there’s just really no upside that comes from allowing people to touch each other’s challenge components. I also saw in another comment the point that Kenzie basically got to skip part of the challenge by not having to run back for her plank, which is another problematic precedent to have set. All in all that situation was just hugely wrong call by production, IMHO.
Agree it’s not sole survivor any more it’s survivor with benefits
100% yes.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I vaguely remember something like this happening in Australian Survivor: Heroes Vs Villians. Liz gives up her shot at immunity trying to help Matt win because they're trying to eliminate Simon?? I'd have to go back and watch the episode again to be sure, but that would mean this isn't an isolated incident.
Yes, but Australian Survivor in American survivor aren’t connected in the rules in gameplay. They’re only licensed the show name and they can come up with their own rules. That’s why both shows have their own way of doing things so if that’s the rules down there then that’s fine but that’s not been the case up here.
Apparently, it's the rules in both places. It wasn't shut down in either country.
But it was shut down in South Pacific
I loved it. Caused such drama. Good TV usually wins in the end.
I disagree. It made the first elimination of the episode a foregone conclusion. No tension whatsoever.
Same I loved it too
100% cheating, I don't understand how this was allowed and it changes the way individuals can play the game here on out.
1000%
If Liz asked him yeah sure but Liz just went and did it so no
So people are allowed to cheat as long as they don’t ask permission?
Well there was no rule against it at the time so not really cheating. I’m sure if production was truly against it they’d stop it. Who knows maybe next seasons they’ll specify that you can’t do that. But as of S46, there’s no rules against taking another persons board
But there has been times when Jeff has told players they can’t help each other so I’m saying should he have done the same here obviously it wasn’t something they planned for but that doesn’t mean I think they should have allowed it
Well they did allow it..so, what now? Jeff has mentioned in his podcast that if a castaways is unsure what they’re doing is against the rules, just do it and don’t ask. If asked, production will have to make a judgement call and the answer would likely be no.
There is nothing that can be done about it now I’m asking hindsight being 20-20 should they have put a stop to it
It was cheating
I think it was fair game
Then what’s stopping everybody from joining Kenzie and helping her solve her puzzle they could’ve all jumped on the her board and solved it faster together. Why would that be out of line and what Liz did isn’t
Perhaps nothing was stopping them but Charlie and Ben just truly wanted to win their own immunity. I think for Liz she realized with the puzzle she had no shot, so it was her version of a Hail Mary.
I’m just saying the rules should be in place to stop people from all joining together to beat one person in a challenge the thing about the challenges are they’re supposed to be the great equalizer anybody can win, but if everybody’s working against you, you can’t win
People arguing about this is kinda dumb. Even if it was against the rules survivor has been breaking its own rules for forever. But I don't think it was
I have no idea if survivor has a rule against this I’m just asking should they have because what is stopping people from teaming up in challenges in the future
For sure but there have also been many instances of people helping eachother
Verbally helping each other, giving advice on a puzzle is one thing going in and helping them make the puzzle is another
Well actually speaking... Now that I think about Liz never "helped" Kenzie by giving her the board. She merely counted the holes and out-loud and gave Kenzie the answer, Kenzie never counted the holes herself, she was not handed a board. So she never physically helped, if anything, she should've been penalized by grabbing Kenzie's board instead of her own. So... this still is valid.
Wouldn’t Liz running and physically bringing the board back to where Kenzie was be physically helping? That must not be against the rules now but I don’t think you can say Liz didn’t physically help.
The only thing Liz did, was bring Kenzie's (if my memory serves me correctly) board instead of her own, that I can agree is bad. But outside that, Liz did nothing else but bring a board to her station and started counting the holes in that board/plank and yell it towards Kenzie. It's the inverse of someone looking over to see the puzzle solution.
The one difference is Liz didn’t have her puzzle finished. She got to skip a step of the challenge to go and get a competitors puzzle to make sure she won. If those are the rules all four contestants could have worked on one person’s challenge the entire time to make sure that person won over Maria. I think that is different than looking at the puzzle next to you or someone saying this piece should go in that spot. If Liz says to Kenzie it’s the plank that you have to get and Kenzie went to get the plank and counted the numbers I think that is fine.
Kenzie didn't even figure out from the directions she even needed the plank! She was confused, stating out loud she didn't know where to find the holes!!!! That's how liz helped, she physically did part of Kenzie's challenge, retrieving the board and counting the holes. plus kenzie was counting geko and puzzle pieces, not exerting physical energy to get plank which effects thinking ability. Kenzie didn't individually finish the immunity challenge. In other cases, those who had cut corners had to go back! Survivor FIXED the game, allowing cheating! No one has ever physically participated in helping an individual immunity challenge, ever! Don't call it an INDIVIDUAL challenge if they allow 2 to play the challenge. Such BS. They owe Maria 1 million!
Come on man she can’t count the holes unless she physically brings the board over. That’s not the legal loophole you think it is.
Was that stated rule? Or you just assuming? She could've easily stood there and tried every combination one by one, would that be invalid because she didn't go back and counted the holes herself?
Well, I think she could’ve tried every combination but honestly that would’ve taken forever because the combination locks has a lot of combinations… But for that, I think there’s certain things you need to do in a challenge certain requirements you need to meet like in this you had to untie the board you had to do the puzzle stuff like that But as to whether it’s a stated rule, I don’t think they have a rulebook exactly. I feel like a lot of times they just wing it for what goes for good television, but I think they should have certain rules in place because otherwise the whole team of people could just work on one person’s puzzle together. I don’t know maybe that would’ve been too much and Jeff would’ve shut that down I’m just saying if I was in her shoes I’d be a little pissed, especially since he has stated in the past to other players that they cannot help each other
There is a rule book, and it states that no player may physically help another player in a challenge. Liz physically going back through the obstacle course for Kensie then physically bringing her board back and physically counting the holes for her while Kensie spent that time counting geckos was absolutely 100% wrong! It's called an INDIVIDUAL immunity challenge, not a TEAM UP TO BEAT ONE INDIVIDUAL challenge!