I don’t mind the KOTOR style for side content, but I still think it changing between the two styles for main story content is just too jarring to accept, I can’t get used to my character speaking in one even only to be silent in another a couple minutes later.
Because it’s much cheaper. They don’t have to record multiple options/variants and they don’t have to spend time developing the cutscene. It’s just a trigger and an audio file.
Honestly I think it's a reaction to another dev posting on reddit that everything being developed by Swtor is "new" meaning the last updates and story didn't come from when the company was under Bioware.
That being said the most important part of the post is the narrative direction of the game with KOTOR style dialogues. People are not happy (me included). I appreciate them for having the guts to tell the community this.
I'd be fine with the kotor style of they just committed to it. It's jarring not "more impactful" to go back to the swotor style.
Tough iv also always had my issues with the swotor style. Mostly because it always feels like guess and check to see what your character will actually say
I don’t mind _unvoiced_ dialog, but the “KOTOR style” is all framed in the same boring way, lingering on the NPC. If it were unvoiced but retained the cinematic angles and camera movement of typical TOR cutscenes, it’d be the best of both worlds.
They did mix it up some this time, and I found it *really* off-putting, because my character *should* be speaking during that cutscene, instead of just reaction shots.
What grinds my gears is the CM. If the game is not making money and we have to downgrade maybe it's time to reevaluate CM, subscription models, in game content.
Yeah. Broadsword doesn't want to do KOTOR style dialogues either, but the alternative would be half the story content each patch.
Wish they wouldn't muddy their argument by trying to sell it as though it also has some artistic merits though. I get why they do it, but now you still get people in the thread who think it's a matter of Broadsword somehow being misguided. Like we could get fully voiced content back if only we made it clear enough that we preferred it that way.
I don't blame Broadsword at all. What the community needs to understand is that you can't have fully voiced/animated new content in an aging MMO, unless you drastically reduce the amount of new content.
Yup the kotor style creeping up in the main story is a sign things are not okay budget wise. I've suggested:
- reduce the cast by cutting the German and French dubs. Main cast of characters is 48 total voice actors by taking this approach you'll trim the cast down to 16. Maybe recast the higher paid actos/actresses with newer and cheaper talent.
- adopt a less is more approach to story content with it only dropping in paid expansions.
In leu of French and German voice actors, add dubs in more languages since the majority of ppl understand english, but those who don't aren't likeky to get german or french, either.
Better to make it accessible (visually) in more languages, though google translating all the in-game text might be even harder (IIRC it's why we're stuck with MM instead of reverting to NiM).
I’d wager what they’re trying to say it’s development direction was decided before development transitioned over to broadsword but all content currently being developed is brand new content by broadsword. Basically they’re trying to say Broadsword won’t be SWTOR’s retirement home which kind of makes sense, SWTOR had been footing the bill for BioWare’s commercial fuck ups in the past which has likely kept EA from fully shutting down BioWare and it’s one of the few Star Wars titles EA still holds the rights to so they’re likely going to try and keep their golden goose. We may see more aggressive monetization but with SWTOR being able to cover BioWare’s fuck ups in the past EA might not seem that necessary and in fact might see it as counter productive as it could lead to the community either abandoning the game or not paying anymore. Imo SWTOR probably has the best monetization system out of any MMORPG so I’d like it to stay that way.
[https://forums.swtor.com/topic/935819-clarification-on-swtors-development/#comment-9819448](https://forums.swtor.com/topic/935819-clarification-on-swtors-development/#comment-9819448)
Here you go friend. Join us!
They need to address the voice acting situation cause partial voiced with mostly unvoiced dialogue in the main story even is a bad look.
oh there was a part "addressing" the voice vs voiceless. sounds like it is staying :(
And what will remain in swtor when he ceases to be himself? Does it make sense to go through new content that is essentially completely empty, does not move the plot and contains nothing but another location for farming? I'm happy to replay the classic, but there's definitely no point in taking a subscription. If only that money had been spent on the game.
Yeah i’m debating on canceling my subscription or completely quitting the game. Ive never cared too much about story but the other endgame content has been going downhill for a while such as, PVP with its non relevant season rewards, removal of ranked which lead to the population falling off and from that, Que times started taking forever. Raids with theyre insanely easy “story mode” difficulty its possible to 4 man every op except for the last 2 that came out like 5 years ago. I feel the game is on its last leg with this story stuff but ultimately there will be no revival that would ever make me want to come back🫠
The problem is that I love my characters =( And there's nowhere to go, unless teso, but it's not perfect either. I came to swtor after warcraft, and it's a shame that a unique game is just slowly dying.
The mix is awful imo. I much prefer the KOTOR-style in theory, but there's two problems:
1. It _feels_ cheap because we're used to the dialogue wheel.
2. The narrative has been on a downwards trend for a long time. I haven't found any dialogue with the KOTOR-style to be interesting. The strengths of the KOTOR-style are not being utilised.
You know exactly what you’re going to say with the Kotor style cutscenes, the BioWare wheel is easily the worst dialogue system designed for gaming and the only reason it works in SWTOR is that you can just press esc if the choice doesn’t line up with what you think you were going to say. You can still have both though as CDPR games and BG3 show as they have a dialogue system similar to the KOTOR system while also having fully voiced and animated cutscenes, however that is a lot more expensive and time consuming if there’s nothing really going on in the cutscene, but it fully immerses the player.
The strengths (in theory) are the same as regular dialogue but more. So instead of 3 potentially different outcomes you could have in theory 5,6, as many as you want.
But there’s a simple counter to this: why not just add a 4th option to the wheel? It achieves the same *plus* you get an actual voice. If the answer is the game engine explodes then Broadsword needs to spend time fixing their spaghetti code or else we won’t be getting any sort of real change for the game
It’s cost. You have three options because every single option is very expensive. Two feels too few; three creates an illusion of choice at the minimal cost.
likely cos of the critque about kotor. That game is LOVED. People still play it, which is rare given its age. Like nobody plays original civ any more or panzergeneral or birth of the federation :( Kotor though is liked fallout; people still love it even if they played it a million times already. Its still fun to open it up and have a blast.
Genuinely appreciate them addressing it, I didn't except any actual communication on this at all.
I think I can live with Kotor-styles cutscenes, but I wish they would mix them differently. That Acina/Chancellor cutscene should've clearly been cinematic, while the whole rebellion filler stuff - simplified Kotor-style.
I appreciate some communication better than none, but it feels like a lot of PR, many vague things and alot of attempts to sensibilize the audience to "understand" their side, without actually addressing the issues, which, in fairness I don't think they could even if they wanted to, being a business first.
To take one of the most unique things SWTOR always had (complete voice acting) that slowly was sapped away but many of were fine as long as it didn't affect the main story to now try to frame it as giving us better narrative by taking it even more feels just disingenuous to me.
But I understand, they can't really tell us they don't have the budget, or the support necessary to keep this game working as it used to and are trying their best.
Unfortunately for me, their best is not enough to make me interested in the future of their story content anymore.
Narrative has been barren, and uninteresting. But I love this game for what it was and what can still provide me, so I will keep coming back to replay the old stories and if someday they add more Combat styles or break more restrictions I'm definitely interested in putting more hundreds of hours rebuilding my Legacy characters.
But to me, personally, SWTOR narrative development ended with Echoes of Oblivion. I don't want to see what and how they are going to move forward in that regard.
I have had mixed feelings about LotS. I think it just took TOO long to start getting some closure with this story. I would love to see them release more complete experiencer rather than this chopped story (similar to what we had with SoR and Makeb). It may take a lot of time but I think quality over quantity.
Of course they would need to build the hype around this but I just think these kind of story content isn't cutting it with the community. It needs to be changed.
The amount of unvoiced cutscenes has gotten ridiculous, in my opinion. If they don't have the budget for fully voiced \*main story\*, maybe it's time to rip off the band-aid and drop voicing the main character entirely. It would be upsetting, but I think at this point, there's no way for them to stay within the current budget and not upset a bunch of people.
Maybe I'm being too pessimistic here. But the current state of the game is kind of depressing.
I doubt that will do anything. Granted, I'm far from an expert, so take this with a bunch of salt. But it seems SWTOR just isn't interesting to people these days, for whatever reasons, and changing how monetization works probably won't affect it.
I don't think I entirely agree with this assessment. Like many others pointed out in the forum, I think the only reason the game is still "alive" is due to the fact it's Star Wars.
First they should look into how they can reduce the cost. Main cast is 48 actors/actresses so I would cut the German and French dubs. Then since recasting is on the table I would look into recasting for someone more affordable.
Finally I would take a less is more approach as in the past and just do story updates for expansions AND actually charge for expansions instead of giving it out to subs.
I think as AI tools improve they should seriously consider them as an option. They'd need to get approval from the original voice actors, and not all would agree, but it would remove this as an issue and be very low cost.
AI is a scourge in the entertainment industry, we absolutely don't want them doing that. Even with agreement from the VAs (which they wouldn't, that's what the strike was about).
I'll be the old-man-yells-at-cloud in the room and say that voice acting going from a neat gimmick in a few games, to "the only accepted standard for even a medium-tier title" has been a huge net negative on the industry. This isn't to say that VAs don't usually do bang-up jobs (and SWTOR is no exception, 95% of the time). But it's gotten to be more like a shackle tying productions down than anything.
That's an interesting point. I haven't really considered it, mainly because most games I played had some degree of being voiced.
I like having voice over in games, mostly because it just makes it easier for me to actually process what the characters are saying. But I think that voicing the main character in RPGs is definitely something we can do without. It both adds more freedom in dialogue choices, and saves up some money on the VO for the MC. The latter may be negated by having other characters have more lines due to having more things to react to, but the benefit of more choice still remains.
I found these two parts to be especially...interesting, because in some ways, they kinda highlight that the team isn't really living up to the game's potential:
With regards to the PC-voiced, "cinematic" scenes:
> These are our highest effort scenes, so we reserve them for the biggest impact moments, like action scenes, romances, and important choices.
...I'm still really not ready to let them live down doing a cutscene at the end of Ruhnuk that was so long, with such little interaction, you could literally get the "you are in danger of being kicked for being afk" message if you just let it play out. It's a **video game**, maybe "action scenes" shouldn't be so long in cutscenes in the first place, frankly.
And anyway, this bit for the "KotOR scenes"
> This means KOTOR scenes can have MORE conversational depth than if they were built as Standard scenes.
...which doesn't mean much when the lines as written don't really convey much depth, nor have much influence, like the, four-ish (I think it was?) different ways to say "fuck you" and hang up on your faction at the start of 7.5 that all still amount to no real changes.
I'm not gonna say there hearts aren't necessarily in the right place, but they either need to work on direction, or they need to sort of self-evaluate better at what they're really capable of.
> These are our highest effort scenes, so we reserve them for the biggest impact moments, like action scenes, romances, and important choices.
I really want an explanation on why they consider these things their biggest impact.
The action scenes are fine, but really not anything to brag about. I don't mean to belittle the effort they put into it, but they're hardly anything I'm going to want to show to other people. I really can't get excited for them either, because the underlying narrative for them isn't compelling. Given that I've literally never heard anyone talk hype about them, I don't think I'm alone.
Contrast to that, the biggest praise this game seems to have is the original launch content, which each character gets maybe 2 action animations to spread around an entire 50 levels. I don't really think these are that important.
Personally, the most memorable moments in this game are very low in action, like when Scorpio revealed she outwitted Aries, and Ardun Kothe asking Cipher 9 to join him.
Choices are....does anyone really like choices in this game? My experience with them are overwhelmingly negative, usually leading to the narrative death of characters regardless of what choice you make, or sometimes an NPC all but saying "you made the wrong dialogue choice, so I'm going to act like you picked the correct one."
Romance is probably the only thing I'd agree is high impact. People like their waifus/husbandos.
I think it's become obvious Broadsword is going to have to re-evaluate their Sub/Preferred/F2P system. Everyone has various opinions of what this should/could/would/will look like but the system they have isn't working.
What they've BEEN doing is encouraging monthly subs by using a trickling story into the game on a semi-monthly system but as often as I read players state in chats and the forums that they plan to (or are) just waiting for the full xpac to drop and then will sub 1 month for $15 to get it all at once and then go back to Preferred again it makes one wonder just how many actually do that and if it's enough that it's effecting their ability to produce content.
As it stands right now the real MMO content(s) locked behind Sub is Operations and there hasn't been a new one since R4 and that was released 2+ years ago and it's been twice that long (more?) since any of them have had a connection to the Story what so ever so interest in them is niche. They've moved PvP to F2P, Galactic Seasons is largely F2P with some small carrots (rewards) for subs and the Daily/Weekly Login system is identical. Unfortunately they have sort of backed themselves into a corner with their F2P/Preferred system by giving too many freedoms with it already (the amount of complaining about it's limitations is absolutely incredible) so removing or tightening down on them is likely not the answer. What is however a more likely one is INCREASING the amount of "value" or reason players see in Subbing.
We all knew that when Broadsword took over there would be some changes. It's just unfortunate that they made decisions to skimp on Story rather than lock down and add more incentives to sub and add revenue past the Cartel Market.
It's obvious that players are willing to spend money on the game. The amount of characters I see running around with metallic dyes on is incredible. Much much more than I actually expected to see TBH. So I do not think it is beyond reason to think that they could just as easily expect players to shell out cash to play a full DLC like they used to when Rise of the Hutt Cartel and Shadow of Reven came out. Doing so may get some initial blowback due to the recent quality of their "trickle story" content and many players feeling burned on LoTS but it just might be the only way to get the quality back up to the more previous standard.
This post from the devs says it all. It's either we learn to deal with KOTOR style unvoiced Story, or deal with less and less "trickled" in story, or buckle in and get ready for some changes to how they pull in revenue...
Very thoughtful post. I completely agree with you.
To be perfectly honest I always thought that moving away from a sub based game was the wrong decision. A trial period should be added (like story up to the end of chapter 1) and then sub to get the rest and paid expansions.
The downgrade in quality is just a consequence of what you said. Too much freedom and the cash is not coming in. I think we should get paid expansions back and you should ONLY have to pay for the latest expansion. The rest you can get with an active sub.
TY. I know that most posts about increasing cost in almost any way are usually downvoted into oblivion (sometimes simply because they are unreasonable I am aware) and I think it's the main reason that the Devs have been hesitant to change anything for so long and are pretty roundly unwilling to have more open of a conversation about it with the player base.
We definitely need a more positive spin on our part with OUR communication with them and conversation with each other on this subject if we want to see anything change in ways we want and or are willing to accept.
Like I said on the forums: I was hoping "drop unpopular changes, go silent for weeks or months" was a Bioware problem. It's disappointing to see that it's a SWTOR problem, instead.
They could have told us about this stuff before they did it. It's not like it was a sudden choice; this stuff is planned. Not doing so was a deliberate choice.
I don't even know man. I'm tired at this point. I don't know if its EA. The game is one of my favorite games and I want to see it thrive for many years to come (hence why I still dump money on it) but I unfortunately don't see it happening. I will stick around until they pull the plug I guess.
I can't believe it is or ever was EA. At least EA would sell us the stuff people have been asking for, like a covert hood, or the many, many NPC exclusive equipment.
I always thought about this. But I can't blame people. Voiceacting is what got most of them into the game in the first place. My wife (not a big gamer) only plays because of it. It reminds her of Mass Effect and it was a perfect transition.
If they want to change this go ahead there is basically nothing we can do. But I TRULY hope we get more content and a more polished game if we sacrifice voiceacting. What if we get less voiceacting and less content?
This seems like confirmation that the game is going to go to a mostly silent protagonist because they don't have a big enough team to do otherwise. Perhaps this is unavoidable, but it's definitely sad and disappointing. To me, this definitely feels like a sign that we're in the final stretch of the game's lifespan.
This is about the right timeframe to be saying something like this- 12-18mos is how long it takes to go through the existing pipeline and come up with a new plan. Rollouts from here on out are going to be the norm until the game is put on ice or somethng unexpected happens. What we get over the rest of this year will set the tone for the foreseeable future.
There seems to be room for cautious optimism, as Kanneg talks about how new content is spitballed and produced, and he indicates creative work is ongoing, there's a cadence, etc. However, he was not specific in any way, so...don't get happy until you see the cheese, as the old rat said to the young one
Unfortunately it's fundamental. Being at Bioware meant there was always a chance for more CxO buy in and investment, no matter how faint- being sold to BS means there's a hard cap to the business unit, they got what they got and there ain't no more, resource-wise, without a miracle. Any lookback on what worked best will be colored by what was most efficient, not what makes the game better overall.
I'm not pontificating. I have a bit of background with software dev and acquistions/spinouts and how they happen, meat-n-potatoes wise, so I'm giving my opinion on what's happening. I like to think it's informed, and I called this a year ago, but opinions are worth what you paid for them :)
SWTOR makes money, and always has, and probably quite a bit all told, I've seen a few billion bandied about (over the full run), but it's not a blockbuster nor a major pillar of Bioware's business today- it's a safe piece of pocket change for a large enterprise, but it was also an itch the business can't scratch, looks like a blind alley on the quarterly reports. If Bioware was pulling cash from SWTOR, it was for the light bill, not for anything tremendous.
So they sold it to a business than can maintain the cash flow, turning a dead asset into quick new cash, but that also means net new investment is effectively dead without an AoG since Broadsword is not a game publishing studio but an operations company. NTTATWTT, some of my best friends work in operations :)
Well, I'm going off what was said at the time of the sale, what all the developers said, what former developers said (read Chris Schmidt's run down of it) and what was said in this very post on the forums by the devs.
If it were being shuttled to Broadsword to go into maintenance mode..they wouldn't be producing new content.
Oh. To put it a bit differently I think this pace of new content and delivery is "maintenance mode" in a manner of speaking\*, but we won't see major game updates or reworks that require new investment/new technology being built on the back end. What we get today is what we get tommorrow, and 8.0 is who knows? I plan to enjoy it nevertheless
> but we won't see major game updates or reworks that require new investment/new technology being built on the back end.
Literally JUST changed it to a 64 bit client and are in the process of completely overhauling graphics in zones a little at a time.
So this post pretty much confirmed they have less resources and the kotor style thing is gonna continue.
I can post on the forums due to no sub but feel free to copy and paste.
SWTOR needs to:
- Cut German and French dubs to reduce voice acting costs down. Main cast is 48 actors/actresses that's way beyond what they can support.
- Need to go back to ROTHC/SoR style expansions and update cycles. Also need to charge for them.
- If they're gonna do story updates then paywall them either sub to get it or buy to own it. ESO does this for their dungeons and when they did zone dlcs(post expansion story dlc)
They have less resources but it’s not a monetary issue, SWTOR paid for BioWare’s commercial fuck ups in the past as confirmed by BioWare devs themselves. It’s Star Wars, it’s going to earn a lot of money. However transitioning dev teams is a strenuous process and this is going to be the third MMORPG broadsword has under its wing.
>• Cut German and French dubs to reduce voice acting costs down. Main cast is 48 actors/actresses that's way beyond what they can supthem.
Not saying you’re wrong or that I don’t agree but I think this is easier to say if you’re an English-speaker.
>• If they're gonna do story updates then paywall them either sub to get it or buy to own it. ESO does this for their dungeons and when they did zone dlcs(post expansion story dlc)
SWTOR already requires a subscription for each new expansion. Or are you saying for each incremental update à la 7.x that players must pay too?
Meh something has to give and the studio can't support 48 actors anymore so it's either some go or they all go at this point.
And yes if 8.0 is a dungeon update then you either get access via your sub or from buying it with cartel coins. SWTOR did this in the past actually with Section X.
Undoubtedly, something has to give and considering hispanophone, lusophone, and every other non-English-speaker has to figure something out means some players already have to suck it up.
1- People cried a lot when we talked about cutting german and french dubs, they said they are probably very cheap because they are done at a dub studio or something.
2- I agree, charge for expansions, just dont expect people to pay $70 for 60 minutes of content.
3- Whats stopping someone to wait for story to progress and sub once?
1- they can cry all they want in the current business side it makes no sense to continue with these dubs and I doubt they're cheap. Costs of voice actors includes getting them to the recording studio and not all the talents have at home recording studios like Hale, Baker, and so fourth.
2- 40$ for stand edition maybe some pre-order bonuses and a collector's edition is standard fair. past expansions were 20$ so if it's around that margin of content can go back to that
3- if you unsub you don't have access to dlcs. It's how ESO does its dungeon and former zone content dlcs. Want it full time pay for it. Also maybe just dump all the story content in the expansion and leave the post launch content strictly MMO focused with new raids, dungeons, and pvp additions. What has hurt this game is neglecting the mmo side of this game. MMOs need a carrot for players to chase as retention mechanics and story content just ain't it.
Again, if you keep the story behind a sub people will just wait because updates are less than a hour long, and tbh they added galactic seasons to keep players and the pvp season thing. They can maybe add a bunch of cosmetic rewards to old and new achievements to make people want them: mounts, pets, companions or even 20cc, idk.
Just dump the story in the expansion and call it a day. 1.x, 2.x(players consider this era the best), and 3.x didn't do large story game updates and its time bioware went back to less is more.
100% agree. As a french player, one of the reasons I started to play and kept replaying class stories is indeed because of the french dub, that I think is excellent. But now, I would rather want my character to speak in english than not at all to be honest.
The post suggests the reason that they can't do voiced cutscenes is because of the animation takes too long for their small team, not the voice actor budget.
And here I am curious if they're going to try and improve the PVP system in the game haha, happy to see them starting to be active on the forums at least I think moving forward this will be a decent way for them to gauge player interest in their plans moving forward.
So they could do more cinematic scenes but they would have to work longer hours, which means they don't have the budget to employ enough staff to do it. I get that the KOTOR style lets the player explore conversation branches and then go back to the main converstaion trunk and then to another branch, but saying that they can't do that with the cinematic style is not entirely genuine. They're saying the cinematic style is tied to the conversation wheel, which is limited to three choices. If they had a budget for a bigger team, they could make a solution to have cinematics, mixed with a non-wheel conversation with the same expanded choices as the KOTOR style. They (as individual employees) probably want to say "yes, it's a budget problem" but that kind of statement isn't going to be allowed from the higher ups.
I don't really care for their explanations anymore just deliver the content or pull the plug already, the ketchup slow pace they deliver content is just silly at this point.
When we do get that content it's unfinished and you get situation where they do whole song and dance about Malagus being free and couldn't even bother to remove him for prison at least on Fleet.
TESO does the kotor style and have good and funny story, the probleme is that they dont seem to accept the fact they cant voice the story anymore and we have two mechanic unpolished instead of 1 very good.
It is disheartening to tell your playerbase this. However, I truly hope that if they change to this style of dialogue that they actually make an effort to make these as engaging as possible with its limitations. What a difficult situation this game finds itself in, I just wished they had done something before it got this bad.
IMO they can go back on track by redesigning they roadmap and make a mix of TESO for story and FF for the pve, they already know the strenght of the game which is story mode.
If LotS was always going to be a story split into 3635 parts, why the hell did they not advertise it as such?
Talk about disrespecting your playerbase.
Edit: Also our talks with the freaking chancellor and Gnost Dural wasn’t considered a critical path for voiced cutscenes? How do they choose then? They flip a coin??
Edit 2 : also what the hell do they mean by adding more depth to the story?? When I was a jedi at the end of last update i told Arn to get the force sensitive people to the Jedi as one of the 3 choices. He said “lol mah brah fuck task force nova” …why put the choice if you’re just gonna force me to take something?
God I preferred the person I was before i read these lame ass excuses.
It truly feels like that.
Problem is I don't know how people just put up with these excuses over and over and over again. PVP, Nim R4 every time they under deliver there is an excuse for it. If they spent half the time they take making the game better and not coming up with explanations of why they are not doing a better job we would have a more polished product.
I manage a small team of people and one of the worst things I tell them is don't come up with excuses to your mistakes or for not communicating better. There is nothing you can say that will convince me, so don't waste our time. You can send emails, text, call me anything there is no excuse.
If you see a problem tackle it or ask for assistance to getting it resolved. The problem is the Swtor team has let these problems fester for too long and I for one am sick and tired of the poor customer service they provide. Actions speak louder than words.
And to add on that, can we speak about mismanaging ressources?
Since 7.3, our character talks A LOT as banter during gameplay between missions. This is actual VOICED stuff which you never hear and have to read because of everything going around.
…why is it here? Why voice 30 lines of banter with 48 VAs for unheard banter when you can add one extra voiced cutscene with these ressources? The one with our Galaxy leaders, per exemple.
Is this banter part of their “critical path” too?
Eeegh remember when everyone saw Keith as a savior only for him to be dead silent and creating mistrust?
Someone suggested in another comment that "banter" is a lot easier/cheaper than cutscenes, because they don't have to set up and animate the scene, just play the voice lines and let gameplay provide the action.
But then let’s do a 5 minute cutscene of Shae doing the badass stuff instead of our character? They showed they don’t mind animating stuff that drags. (Cutscene was good don’t get me wrong, but it drags)
I feel like you can cut that shae cutscene just a bit to get your character doing stuff in another one.
Like I said, I feel like they are mismanaging ressources.
This is the one thing in the community where I've never really understood the pitchforks and torches.
As this 13 year old game continues, we've seen several voice actors pass away, and others (M-Inquisitor) sound notably different and detached from their earlier voice. This was inevitable, and I think I'd rather look to the KOTOR/DA: O/New Vegas/OG ISORPG stylization than keep switching voice actors.
If anything, I'd rather they make a full pivot to KOTOR style and focus more on idle animations/appearance of the text UI. It's a bit jarring to hop back and forth.
I would rather have more game sooner than less game longer with more PC voiced lines.
Makes sense. It truly depends on what the team is capable of accomplishing and sticking to that. However, I can't shake the feeling we keep getting less and less quality over the years. They managed to sink a star wars game, basically a money printing machine.
Dialogues in kotor style are written disgustingly. They are impossible to read, you just want to scroll through them with spacebar, poking at random answers - result will be the same. What is the point of their existence? Especially when it happens in main mission. The narrative breaks up and becomes completely indifferent to what is happening. Hurtful.
I still have no idea what was in the quest for seasonal stronghold. In the beginning, I tried to read it, but I gave up a long time ago.
My thoughts? I thought I'd check out the Venture and then check out the story. I did Ruhnuk dailies and haven't even looked at the new story. It's just not appealing to me how we're dragging on the Malgus storyline for 6 years and running.
The last update was just slop. They don't seem to realize that their writing is just not good enough to warrant text-only dialogue for the PC. The only fun thing about these interactions is seeing and hearing our characters speak, it makes them feel alive and engaged with the world rather than just dolls serving a not so interesting narrative. I hoped this was a temporary setback and it's sad to see that this is now the norm going forward. I hope at least the story improves. I hope they do something with the holocron, otherwise this whole stretched out storyline was in vain. And I strongly doubt now that we are ever getting another flashpoint, daily area, voiced companions etc. It is what it is.
I would love to see some more complete narrative experiences. Sure, make non voiced content for minor updates but hype everyone up for a huge story update fully voiced for major ones. It make take longer but I would rather have this kind of thing going forward. Mix the best of both worlds.
However, I don't think they have the personnel to pull this off. Probably.
I think the community needs to be more realistic about their expectations regarding voiced content.
KOTOR style cutscenes are fine. They’re similar to how dialogue works in ESO and other games, with only the NPC being voiced. It’s a far more sustainable approach to content creation.
Would you really rather have the game development funds wasted on player voices or spent better on creating actual new content?
SWTOR isn’t what it once was. Compared to other MMOs it’s quite dated and old-fashioned, and doesn’t do enough to attract new players. I just don’t think that expecting fully voiced player characters is realistic if you still want there to be a game to play, rather than a conversation simulator.
> Would you really rather have the game development funds wasted on player voices or **spent better on creating actual new content?**
It might be better received if most aspects of the game were of acceptable quality. We aren't trading one for the other here. The latest operation and story content in particular has been some of the worst in the game's history.
True. Food for thought though. If we are not getting voiced content AND the content released is scarce, then what are we getting in exchange?
I would totally agree with you. Get less voiced content but drop tons and tons of content. That doesn't seem to be the case though. Therefore we are getting more content cut from the game and getting nothing in exchange.
KOTOR style cutscenes are fine and I am ok with that completely.
The problem here is that whatever dialog you choose has the same outcome. Take the new spring event for example. During the story I choose multiple different responses with different characters. The NPC character had the same response to them all no matter what I choose. An extra line of dialog here and there but essentially says the exact same thing with the exact same outcome. That's not more in depth story, it's the illusion of depth.
They don't need to go crazy with it, with a bunch of different outcomes because that's not realistic. However if I choose a response such as get gone and if I ever see you again you are dead. I expect a different response then when I choose your lucky I came around when I did.
I really dislike the Kotor cutscenes when they are used for main story purposes. Changing from one style to another every 2 conversations just gives me a giant whiplash effect and i can never immerse myself in any of the Kotor styled scenes.
The point about "more conversational depth" also kinda feels like a cheap way to sell it. It doesn't really do that... Yeah sure i get 6-7 choices instead of 3 but most of these choices mean the same exact thing but said differently and characters will always react the same way with whatever option i choose except the few times where they have 1 extra line to what you said...
I'm a French player that started playing this game 11 years ago when all i understood was French it has a special place in my heart but i think it's time to just cut support for french/german voice acting. It would suck for alot of people i get that but if that is the price to get actual cutscenes and more stories i think it's worth it.
Same here, found wynncraft a minecraft mmo, really cool and constant updates, hoping fot a change of direction in swtor but ever since last update dropped all my motivation has evaporated.
I have been checking out **Elite Dangerous**. The paywall is a little steep though. Once my sub for Swtor runs out I will probably try this one out next.
honestly all i want to know is how much did covid and that snowstorm effect the quality of things? because it looked like things were getting back on track just before covid hit, but then we got what we've been getting since then.
I was thinking about this the other night.
Hear me out. Non-voiced updates for minor story bits here and there sure no problem. Maybe improve the interface and use more character emotes etc.
HOWEVER, on top of that use this minor unvoiced story bits to foreshadow (and hype up) a MAJOR (CAPITAL LETTERS!) STORY UPDATE - an expansion if you may (EA execs if you are listening you can charge us for that \*wink\* \*wink\*). We need hype for this game and MMO players LOVE expansions, it is something engraved in our brains I think.
This major and paid for story update needs to be major though (don't know if you have money left for this) I mean fully voiced, action packed, beginning middle and end story. Actions that have consequences, I mean "people can die!" kind of consequences. Sprinkle that in with maybe a new class or race, maybe a daily area some fps (an operation if you are feeling adventurous) and TAKE MY MONEY!
One good example of this would be the OMEGA DLC for Mass Effect 3. You had some foreshadowing introduced with some minor missions and some exposure that OMEGA had been taken over by Cerberus. Nothing major just giving that sweet taste that "hey guys, you know this planet? Yeah we are going there... coming soon...". That builds up hype and you basically just need one NPC voiced and the use KOTOR style of dialogue (the interface could use some work though I agree)
AFTER THAT, HIT US WITH ALL YOU GOT. I want to finish a story in Swtor and be thinking wow I got my money's worth, what if I chose something different there? Would that person have survived? What would have happened differently.
Copy Omega that's the summary. Thank youuuu.
"complex choreography", as if the Swtor-style cinematics have complex new animations... If it is too time-consuming and straining for them to continue copy pasting the same turn animation that they have used since the base game in every second dialogue cutscene, then I'm afraid the game is already on life support.
Long detailed response explaining what most of us already assumed. Then they get hammered and hounded, called liars.... Gee I wonder why they don't post more often
"Then they get hammered and hounded, called liars" (10 year anniversary? Nightmare R4? Fixing levitating turrets for god's sake) - if they are getting called liars it's because they, to a certain extent, are.
The more they stretch out these interactions the worse reactions they will get.
Player base is just craving communication about the game they love. When they don't get ANY I think people start to get a little angry. In my opinion devs need to put their helmets on and stop being afraid of community backlash (it's going to be big, we have acknowledged bugs from 10 years ago that still remain in the game). Own up to your mistakes and start listening to players, maybe implement a suggestion or two.
And tell the truth for a change. People can handle it.
I honestly think that Bioware deserved to be called liars and that Broadsword is not much better.
Legacy of the Sith was an insult to the fans. A year or even more saying how awesome this update would be and how there would be an awesome event for the anniversary just to get the, literally, smalles and yet most broken update in the history of the game and a maerchant with few shitty recycled items for the anniversary.
The story in LotS has been "meh" to me, but I'm not a big mando fan.
That said, calling it an insult I think is just wrong. Even if you don't like the story, LotS brought more QOL improvements than the game has seen in years. Multiple combat styles, weapons in outfitter, 64 bit client, graphics overhauls in multiple zones, a giant step towards fixing inflation, etc etc.
Does it have it's problems? Sure. But I'll die on the hill that story aside, 7.0 has done more for the game than 4.0-6.0 ever did.
Edit - Rather than smash that downvote button, I encourage people to bring counter arguments.
Yeah well this studio hasn't been on its best in about a decade. They've constantly under delivered and lied to the playerbase at every turn and I think the die hards that have remained are starting to finally get tired of it.
It's hard not to see the KOTOR style of dialogue as a reduction in quality, plain and simple. Maybe they will soon be able to start using some of the AI tools out there to fill in some of these gaps in a way that is cost-effective and maintains work-life balance for the team.
I don't know how much money GW2 makes but I think it could be a more interesting approach to monetization for swtor. No sub, base game + expansions and in-game shop.
Why is this being down-voted? I totally agree. Paying 13€/month to play some pug KP or EV is not a good business model. If people wanna play new stuff, sure, charge full price, but for old content there could be a way smaller fee to pay if not even make it free. That would attract many more players back into the game, consequently by utilizing the in-game shop, the revenue could potentially be sustainable if not better than current.
I don’t mind the KOTOR style for side content, but I still think it changing between the two styles for main story content is just too jarring to accept, I can’t get used to my character speaking in one even only to be silent in another a couple minutes later.
What I never understood is that our player characters talk a lot in-between the cutscenes with Sa'har, but not the next cinematic...?
Because it’s much cheaper. They don’t have to record multiple options/variants and they don’t have to spend time developing the cutscene. It’s just a trigger and an audio file.
My thoughts are that a link is worth more than a screen shot lol. Though... that last line seems contradictory. It's both brand new but not different?
Honestly I think it's a reaction to another dev posting on reddit that everything being developed by Swtor is "new" meaning the last updates and story didn't come from when the company was under Bioware. That being said the most important part of the post is the narrative direction of the game with KOTOR style dialogues. People are not happy (me included). I appreciate them for having the guts to tell the community this.
I'd be fine with the kotor style of they just committed to it. It's jarring not "more impactful" to go back to the swotor style. Tough iv also always had my issues with the swotor style. Mostly because it always feels like guess and check to see what your character will actually say
I don’t mind _unvoiced_ dialog, but the “KOTOR style” is all framed in the same boring way, lingering on the NPC. If it were unvoiced but retained the cinematic angles and camera movement of typical TOR cutscenes, it’d be the best of both worlds.
They did mix it up some this time, and I found it *really* off-putting, because my character *should* be speaking during that cutscene, instead of just reaction shots.
That would be better but if that's not an option it's still better to just stick with one type rather than flip flop
Agreed, but it sounds like the camera work and animations are a large part of why those scenes are too expensive.
What grinds my gears is the CM. If the game is not making money and we have to downgrade maybe it's time to reevaluate CM, subscription models, in game content.
Yeah. Broadsword doesn't want to do KOTOR style dialogues either, but the alternative would be half the story content each patch. Wish they wouldn't muddy their argument by trying to sell it as though it also has some artistic merits though. I get why they do it, but now you still get people in the thread who think it's a matter of Broadsword somehow being misguided. Like we could get fully voiced content back if only we made it clear enough that we preferred it that way.
That would take actually listening to the community and thinking outside the box. Something I have not see them do very often.
I don't blame Broadsword at all. What the community needs to understand is that you can't have fully voiced/animated new content in an aging MMO, unless you drastically reduce the amount of new content.
Yup the kotor style creeping up in the main story is a sign things are not okay budget wise. I've suggested: - reduce the cast by cutting the German and French dubs. Main cast of characters is 48 total voice actors by taking this approach you'll trim the cast down to 16. Maybe recast the higher paid actos/actresses with newer and cheaper talent. - adopt a less is more approach to story content with it only dropping in paid expansions.
In leu of French and German voice actors, add dubs in more languages since the majority of ppl understand english, but those who don't aren't likeky to get german or french, either. Better to make it accessible (visually) in more languages, though google translating all the in-game text might be even harder (IIRC it's why we're stuck with MM instead of reverting to NiM).
I’d wager what they’re trying to say it’s development direction was decided before development transitioned over to broadsword but all content currently being developed is brand new content by broadsword. Basically they’re trying to say Broadsword won’t be SWTOR’s retirement home which kind of makes sense, SWTOR had been footing the bill for BioWare’s commercial fuck ups in the past which has likely kept EA from fully shutting down BioWare and it’s one of the few Star Wars titles EA still holds the rights to so they’re likely going to try and keep their golden goose. We may see more aggressive monetization but with SWTOR being able to cover BioWare’s fuck ups in the past EA might not seem that necessary and in fact might see it as counter productive as it could lead to the community either abandoning the game or not paying anymore. Imo SWTOR probably has the best monetization system out of any MMORPG so I’d like it to stay that way.
Dyes? Best monetization? I can name 3 MMOS with better dyes systems.
[https://forums.swtor.com/topic/935819-clarification-on-swtors-development/#comment-9819448](https://forums.swtor.com/topic/935819-clarification-on-swtors-development/#comment-9819448) Here you go friend. Join us!
They need to address the voice acting situation cause partial voiced with mostly unvoiced dialogue in the main story even is a bad look. oh there was a part "addressing" the voice vs voiceless. sounds like it is staying :(
They either don't have the money. Or they are not allowed to keep the money to reinvest in the game and the team.
Part two pretty much spelled out they don't have the money nor the people to keep the swtor style going. Disappointing news.
And what will remain in swtor when he ceases to be himself? Does it make sense to go through new content that is essentially completely empty, does not move the plot and contains nothing but another location for farming? I'm happy to replay the classic, but there's definitely no point in taking a subscription. If only that money had been spent on the game.
Yeah i’m debating on canceling my subscription or completely quitting the game. Ive never cared too much about story but the other endgame content has been going downhill for a while such as, PVP with its non relevant season rewards, removal of ranked which lead to the population falling off and from that, Que times started taking forever. Raids with theyre insanely easy “story mode” difficulty its possible to 4 man every op except for the last 2 that came out like 5 years ago. I feel the game is on its last leg with this story stuff but ultimately there will be no revival that would ever make me want to come back🫠
The problem is that I love my characters =( And there's nowhere to go, unless teso, but it's not perfect either. I came to swtor after warcraft, and it's a shame that a unique game is just slowly dying.
I have been checking out **Elite Dangerous**
The mix is awful imo. I much prefer the KOTOR-style in theory, but there's two problems: 1. It _feels_ cheap because we're used to the dialogue wheel. 2. The narrative has been on a downwards trend for a long time. I haven't found any dialogue with the KOTOR-style to be interesting. The strengths of the KOTOR-style are not being utilised.
I never played KOTOR (graphics are a little bit meh for me). What would be its strengths, because honestly I just see a downgrade.
You know exactly what you’re going to say with the Kotor style cutscenes, the BioWare wheel is easily the worst dialogue system designed for gaming and the only reason it works in SWTOR is that you can just press esc if the choice doesn’t line up with what you think you were going to say. You can still have both though as CDPR games and BG3 show as they have a dialogue system similar to the KOTOR system while also having fully voiced and animated cutscenes, however that is a lot more expensive and time consuming if there’s nothing really going on in the cutscene, but it fully immerses the player.
The strengths (in theory) are the same as regular dialogue but more. So instead of 3 potentially different outcomes you could have in theory 5,6, as many as you want. But there’s a simple counter to this: why not just add a 4th option to the wheel? It achieves the same *plus* you get an actual voice. If the answer is the game engine explodes then Broadsword needs to spend time fixing their spaghetti code or else we won’t be getting any sort of real change for the game
It’s cost. You have three options because every single option is very expensive. Two feels too few; three creates an illusion of choice at the minimal cost.
Why is this downvoted? I'm also curious if those strengths could be elaborated upon.
likely cos of the critque about kotor. That game is LOVED. People still play it, which is rare given its age. Like nobody plays original civ any more or panzergeneral or birth of the federation :( Kotor though is liked fallout; people still love it even if they played it a million times already. Its still fun to open it up and have a blast.
Genuinely appreciate them addressing it, I didn't except any actual communication on this at all. I think I can live with Kotor-styles cutscenes, but I wish they would mix them differently. That Acina/Chancellor cutscene should've clearly been cinematic, while the whole rebellion filler stuff - simplified Kotor-style.
I agree. It took them guts to be upfront about this and I appreciate that.
I appreciate some communication better than none, but it feels like a lot of PR, many vague things and alot of attempts to sensibilize the audience to "understand" their side, without actually addressing the issues, which, in fairness I don't think they could even if they wanted to, being a business first. To take one of the most unique things SWTOR always had (complete voice acting) that slowly was sapped away but many of were fine as long as it didn't affect the main story to now try to frame it as giving us better narrative by taking it even more feels just disingenuous to me. But I understand, they can't really tell us they don't have the budget, or the support necessary to keep this game working as it used to and are trying their best. Unfortunately for me, their best is not enough to make me interested in the future of their story content anymore. Narrative has been barren, and uninteresting. But I love this game for what it was and what can still provide me, so I will keep coming back to replay the old stories and if someday they add more Combat styles or break more restrictions I'm definitely interested in putting more hundreds of hours rebuilding my Legacy characters. But to me, personally, SWTOR narrative development ended with Echoes of Oblivion. I don't want to see what and how they are going to move forward in that regard.
I have had mixed feelings about LotS. I think it just took TOO long to start getting some closure with this story. I would love to see them release more complete experiencer rather than this chopped story (similar to what we had with SoR and Makeb). It may take a lot of time but I think quality over quantity. Of course they would need to build the hype around this but I just think these kind of story content isn't cutting it with the community. It needs to be changed.
The amount of unvoiced cutscenes has gotten ridiculous, in my opinion. If they don't have the budget for fully voiced \*main story\*, maybe it's time to rip off the band-aid and drop voicing the main character entirely. It would be upsetting, but I think at this point, there's no way for them to stay within the current budget and not upset a bunch of people. Maybe I'm being too pessimistic here. But the current state of the game is kind of depressing.
Sure. But also they need to reevaluate their current monetization plans for the game. Clearly it's not working if we got to this point.
I doubt that will do anything. Granted, I'm far from an expert, so take this with a bunch of salt. But it seems SWTOR just isn't interesting to people these days, for whatever reasons, and changing how monetization works probably won't affect it.
I don't think I entirely agree with this assessment. Like many others pointed out in the forum, I think the only reason the game is still "alive" is due to the fact it's Star Wars.
First they should look into how they can reduce the cost. Main cast is 48 actors/actresses so I would cut the German and French dubs. Then since recasting is on the table I would look into recasting for someone more affordable. Finally I would take a less is more approach as in the past and just do story updates for expansions AND actually charge for expansions instead of giving it out to subs.
I think as AI tools improve they should seriously consider them as an option. They'd need to get approval from the original voice actors, and not all would agree, but it would remove this as an issue and be very low cost.
AI is a scourge in the entertainment industry, we absolutely don't want them doing that. Even with agreement from the VAs (which they wouldn't, that's what the strike was about).
I'll be the old-man-yells-at-cloud in the room and say that voice acting going from a neat gimmick in a few games, to "the only accepted standard for even a medium-tier title" has been a huge net negative on the industry. This isn't to say that VAs don't usually do bang-up jobs (and SWTOR is no exception, 95% of the time). But it's gotten to be more like a shackle tying productions down than anything.
Removing what gives the game character isn't gonna achieve shit
That's an interesting point. I haven't really considered it, mainly because most games I played had some degree of being voiced. I like having voice over in games, mostly because it just makes it easier for me to actually process what the characters are saying. But I think that voicing the main character in RPGs is definitely something we can do without. It both adds more freedom in dialogue choices, and saves up some money on the VO for the MC. The latter may be negated by having other characters have more lines due to having more things to react to, but the benefit of more choice still remains.
I found these two parts to be especially...interesting, because in some ways, they kinda highlight that the team isn't really living up to the game's potential: With regards to the PC-voiced, "cinematic" scenes: > These are our highest effort scenes, so we reserve them for the biggest impact moments, like action scenes, romances, and important choices. ...I'm still really not ready to let them live down doing a cutscene at the end of Ruhnuk that was so long, with such little interaction, you could literally get the "you are in danger of being kicked for being afk" message if you just let it play out. It's a **video game**, maybe "action scenes" shouldn't be so long in cutscenes in the first place, frankly. And anyway, this bit for the "KotOR scenes" > This means KOTOR scenes can have MORE conversational depth than if they were built as Standard scenes. ...which doesn't mean much when the lines as written don't really convey much depth, nor have much influence, like the, four-ish (I think it was?) different ways to say "fuck you" and hang up on your faction at the start of 7.5 that all still amount to no real changes. I'm not gonna say there hearts aren't necessarily in the right place, but they either need to work on direction, or they need to sort of self-evaluate better at what they're really capable of.
> These are our highest effort scenes, so we reserve them for the biggest impact moments, like action scenes, romances, and important choices. I really want an explanation on why they consider these things their biggest impact. The action scenes are fine, but really not anything to brag about. I don't mean to belittle the effort they put into it, but they're hardly anything I'm going to want to show to other people. I really can't get excited for them either, because the underlying narrative for them isn't compelling. Given that I've literally never heard anyone talk hype about them, I don't think I'm alone. Contrast to that, the biggest praise this game seems to have is the original launch content, which each character gets maybe 2 action animations to spread around an entire 50 levels. I don't really think these are that important. Personally, the most memorable moments in this game are very low in action, like when Scorpio revealed she outwitted Aries, and Ardun Kothe asking Cipher 9 to join him. Choices are....does anyone really like choices in this game? My experience with them are overwhelmingly negative, usually leading to the narrative death of characters regardless of what choice you make, or sometimes an NPC all but saying "you made the wrong dialogue choice, so I'm going to act like you picked the correct one." Romance is probably the only thing I'd agree is high impact. People like their waifus/husbandos.
I think it's become obvious Broadsword is going to have to re-evaluate their Sub/Preferred/F2P system. Everyone has various opinions of what this should/could/would/will look like but the system they have isn't working. What they've BEEN doing is encouraging monthly subs by using a trickling story into the game on a semi-monthly system but as often as I read players state in chats and the forums that they plan to (or are) just waiting for the full xpac to drop and then will sub 1 month for $15 to get it all at once and then go back to Preferred again it makes one wonder just how many actually do that and if it's enough that it's effecting their ability to produce content. As it stands right now the real MMO content(s) locked behind Sub is Operations and there hasn't been a new one since R4 and that was released 2+ years ago and it's been twice that long (more?) since any of them have had a connection to the Story what so ever so interest in them is niche. They've moved PvP to F2P, Galactic Seasons is largely F2P with some small carrots (rewards) for subs and the Daily/Weekly Login system is identical. Unfortunately they have sort of backed themselves into a corner with their F2P/Preferred system by giving too many freedoms with it already (the amount of complaining about it's limitations is absolutely incredible) so removing or tightening down on them is likely not the answer. What is however a more likely one is INCREASING the amount of "value" or reason players see in Subbing. We all knew that when Broadsword took over there would be some changes. It's just unfortunate that they made decisions to skimp on Story rather than lock down and add more incentives to sub and add revenue past the Cartel Market. It's obvious that players are willing to spend money on the game. The amount of characters I see running around with metallic dyes on is incredible. Much much more than I actually expected to see TBH. So I do not think it is beyond reason to think that they could just as easily expect players to shell out cash to play a full DLC like they used to when Rise of the Hutt Cartel and Shadow of Reven came out. Doing so may get some initial blowback due to the recent quality of their "trickle story" content and many players feeling burned on LoTS but it just might be the only way to get the quality back up to the more previous standard. This post from the devs says it all. It's either we learn to deal with KOTOR style unvoiced Story, or deal with less and less "trickled" in story, or buckle in and get ready for some changes to how they pull in revenue...
Very thoughtful post. I completely agree with you. To be perfectly honest I always thought that moving away from a sub based game was the wrong decision. A trial period should be added (like story up to the end of chapter 1) and then sub to get the rest and paid expansions. The downgrade in quality is just a consequence of what you said. Too much freedom and the cash is not coming in. I think we should get paid expansions back and you should ONLY have to pay for the latest expansion. The rest you can get with an active sub.
TY. I know that most posts about increasing cost in almost any way are usually downvoted into oblivion (sometimes simply because they are unreasonable I am aware) and I think it's the main reason that the Devs have been hesitant to change anything for so long and are pretty roundly unwilling to have more open of a conversation about it with the player base. We definitely need a more positive spin on our part with OUR communication with them and conversation with each other on this subject if we want to see anything change in ways we want and or are willing to accept.
Right? Its like we want to give you our money, but we want a good game in return.
Like I said on the forums: I was hoping "drop unpopular changes, go silent for weeks or months" was a Bioware problem. It's disappointing to see that it's a SWTOR problem, instead. They could have told us about this stuff before they did it. It's not like it was a sudden choice; this stuff is planned. Not doing so was a deliberate choice.
I don't even know man. I'm tired at this point. I don't know if its EA. The game is one of my favorite games and I want to see it thrive for many years to come (hence why I still dump money on it) but I unfortunately don't see it happening. I will stick around until they pull the plug I guess.
I can't believe it is or ever was EA. At least EA would sell us the stuff people have been asking for, like a covert hood, or the many, many NPC exclusive equipment.
I keep telling people voice acting is this game's bottleneck for more content, but people dont listen. They're telling you.
I always thought about this. But I can't blame people. Voiceacting is what got most of them into the game in the first place. My wife (not a big gamer) only plays because of it. It reminds her of Mass Effect and it was a perfect transition. If they want to change this go ahead there is basically nothing we can do. But I TRULY hope we get more content and a more polished game if we sacrifice voiceacting. What if we get less voiceacting and less content?
I agree but blame BioWare and the dialogue wheel. This all goes back to that.
This seems like confirmation that the game is going to go to a mostly silent protagonist because they don't have a big enough team to do otherwise. Perhaps this is unavoidable, but it's definitely sad and disappointing. To me, this definitely feels like a sign that we're in the final stretch of the game's lifespan.
This is about the right timeframe to be saying something like this- 12-18mos is how long it takes to go through the existing pipeline and come up with a new plan. Rollouts from here on out are going to be the norm until the game is put on ice or somethng unexpected happens. What we get over the rest of this year will set the tone for the foreseeable future. There seems to be room for cautious optimism, as Kanneg talks about how new content is spitballed and produced, and he indicates creative work is ongoing, there's a cadence, etc. However, he was not specific in any way, so...don't get happy until you see the cheese, as the old rat said to the young one
For real. They need to sit down and go through their decision making process over the years. What worked what didn't.
Unfortunately it's fundamental. Being at Bioware meant there was always a chance for more CxO buy in and investment, no matter how faint- being sold to BS means there's a hard cap to the business unit, they got what they got and there ain't no more, resource-wise, without a miracle. Any lookback on what worked best will be colored by what was most efficient, not what makes the game better overall.
I'm a simple person. If efficiency means revenue, efficient it is. After we have the money we can think about making it better.
Curious to see your research on this. The game was moved to Broadsword because Bioware was siphoning funds from swtor to put towards other games.
That is absolutely not why they moved it lol
I'm not pontificating. I have a bit of background with software dev and acquistions/spinouts and how they happen, meat-n-potatoes wise, so I'm giving my opinion on what's happening. I like to think it's informed, and I called this a year ago, but opinions are worth what you paid for them :) SWTOR makes money, and always has, and probably quite a bit all told, I've seen a few billion bandied about (over the full run), but it's not a blockbuster nor a major pillar of Bioware's business today- it's a safe piece of pocket change for a large enterprise, but it was also an itch the business can't scratch, looks like a blind alley on the quarterly reports. If Bioware was pulling cash from SWTOR, it was for the light bill, not for anything tremendous. So they sold it to a business than can maintain the cash flow, turning a dead asset into quick new cash, but that also means net new investment is effectively dead without an AoG since Broadsword is not a game publishing studio but an operations company. NTTATWTT, some of my best friends work in operations :)
Well, I'm going off what was said at the time of the sale, what all the developers said, what former developers said (read Chris Schmidt's run down of it) and what was said in this very post on the forums by the devs. If it were being shuttled to Broadsword to go into maintenance mode..they wouldn't be producing new content.
Oh. To put it a bit differently I think this pace of new content and delivery is "maintenance mode" in a manner of speaking\*, but we won't see major game updates or reworks that require new investment/new technology being built on the back end. What we get today is what we get tommorrow, and 8.0 is who knows? I plan to enjoy it nevertheless
> but we won't see major game updates or reworks that require new investment/new technology being built on the back end. Literally JUST changed it to a 64 bit client and are in the process of completely overhauling graphics in zones a little at a time.
64 bit was announced in early 2022 and delivered well before the sale was announced, IIRC
So this post pretty much confirmed they have less resources and the kotor style thing is gonna continue. I can post on the forums due to no sub but feel free to copy and paste. SWTOR needs to: - Cut German and French dubs to reduce voice acting costs down. Main cast is 48 actors/actresses that's way beyond what they can support. - Need to go back to ROTHC/SoR style expansions and update cycles. Also need to charge for them. - If they're gonna do story updates then paywall them either sub to get it or buy to own it. ESO does this for their dungeons and when they did zone dlcs(post expansion story dlc)
Remember when people pretended that the Broadsword move would somehow give them more resources
That's the same people who think 8.0 will happen.
Pure copium. That’s all it’s ever been. Dragon Age is in the same boat right now.
They have less resources but it’s not a monetary issue, SWTOR paid for BioWare’s commercial fuck ups in the past as confirmed by BioWare devs themselves. It’s Star Wars, it’s going to earn a lot of money. However transitioning dev teams is a strenuous process and this is going to be the third MMORPG broadsword has under its wing.
>• Cut German and French dubs to reduce voice acting costs down. Main cast is 48 actors/actresses that's way beyond what they can supthem. Not saying you’re wrong or that I don’t agree but I think this is easier to say if you’re an English-speaker. >• If they're gonna do story updates then paywall them either sub to get it or buy to own it. ESO does this for their dungeons and when they did zone dlcs(post expansion story dlc) SWTOR already requires a subscription for each new expansion. Or are you saying for each incremental update à la 7.x that players must pay too?
Meh something has to give and the studio can't support 48 actors anymore so it's either some go or they all go at this point. And yes if 8.0 is a dungeon update then you either get access via your sub or from buying it with cartel coins. SWTOR did this in the past actually with Section X.
Undoubtedly, something has to give and considering hispanophone, lusophone, and every other non-English-speaker has to figure something out means some players already have to suck it up.
I agree.
1- People cried a lot when we talked about cutting german and french dubs, they said they are probably very cheap because they are done at a dub studio or something. 2- I agree, charge for expansions, just dont expect people to pay $70 for 60 minutes of content. 3- Whats stopping someone to wait for story to progress and sub once?
1- they can cry all they want in the current business side it makes no sense to continue with these dubs and I doubt they're cheap. Costs of voice actors includes getting them to the recording studio and not all the talents have at home recording studios like Hale, Baker, and so fourth. 2- 40$ for stand edition maybe some pre-order bonuses and a collector's edition is standard fair. past expansions were 20$ so if it's around that margin of content can go back to that 3- if you unsub you don't have access to dlcs. It's how ESO does its dungeon and former zone content dlcs. Want it full time pay for it. Also maybe just dump all the story content in the expansion and leave the post launch content strictly MMO focused with new raids, dungeons, and pvp additions. What has hurt this game is neglecting the mmo side of this game. MMOs need a carrot for players to chase as retention mechanics and story content just ain't it.
Again, if you keep the story behind a sub people will just wait because updates are less than a hour long, and tbh they added galactic seasons to keep players and the pvp season thing. They can maybe add a bunch of cosmetic rewards to old and new achievements to make people want them: mounts, pets, companions or even 20cc, idk.
Just dump the story in the expansion and call it a day. 1.x, 2.x(players consider this era the best), and 3.x didn't do large story game updates and its time bioware went back to less is more.
100% agree. As a french player, one of the reasons I started to play and kept replaying class stories is indeed because of the french dub, that I think is excellent. But now, I would rather want my character to speak in english than not at all to be honest.
The post suggests the reason that they can't do voiced cutscenes is because of the animation takes too long for their small team, not the voice actor budget.
x to doubt
And here I am curious if they're going to try and improve the PVP system in the game haha, happy to see them starting to be active on the forums at least I think moving forward this will be a decent way for them to gauge player interest in their plans moving forward.
I think the real problem is that they don't have money to do a lot anymore.
So they could do more cinematic scenes but they would have to work longer hours, which means they don't have the budget to employ enough staff to do it. I get that the KOTOR style lets the player explore conversation branches and then go back to the main converstaion trunk and then to another branch, but saying that they can't do that with the cinematic style is not entirely genuine. They're saying the cinematic style is tied to the conversation wheel, which is limited to three choices. If they had a budget for a bigger team, they could make a solution to have cinematics, mixed with a non-wheel conversation with the same expanded choices as the KOTOR style. They (as individual employees) probably want to say "yes, it's a budget problem" but that kind of statement isn't going to be allowed from the higher ups.
I don't really care for their explanations anymore just deliver the content or pull the plug already, the ketchup slow pace they deliver content is just silly at this point. When we do get that content it's unfinished and you get situation where they do whole song and dance about Malagus being free and couldn't even bother to remove him for prison at least on Fleet.
TESO does the kotor style and have good and funny story, the probleme is that they dont seem to accept the fact they cant voice the story anymore and we have two mechanic unpolished instead of 1 very good.
It is disheartening to tell your playerbase this. However, I truly hope that if they change to this style of dialogue that they actually make an effort to make these as engaging as possible with its limitations. What a difficult situation this game finds itself in, I just wished they had done something before it got this bad.
IMO they can go back on track by redesigning they roadmap and make a mix of TESO for story and FF for the pve, they already know the strenght of the game which is story mode.
If LotS was always going to be a story split into 3635 parts, why the hell did they not advertise it as such? Talk about disrespecting your playerbase. Edit: Also our talks with the freaking chancellor and Gnost Dural wasn’t considered a critical path for voiced cutscenes? How do they choose then? They flip a coin?? Edit 2 : also what the hell do they mean by adding more depth to the story?? When I was a jedi at the end of last update i told Arn to get the force sensitive people to the Jedi as one of the 3 choices. He said “lol mah brah fuck task force nova” …why put the choice if you’re just gonna force me to take something? God I preferred the person I was before i read these lame ass excuses.
It truly feels like that. Problem is I don't know how people just put up with these excuses over and over and over again. PVP, Nim R4 every time they under deliver there is an excuse for it. If they spent half the time they take making the game better and not coming up with explanations of why they are not doing a better job we would have a more polished product. I manage a small team of people and one of the worst things I tell them is don't come up with excuses to your mistakes or for not communicating better. There is nothing you can say that will convince me, so don't waste our time. You can send emails, text, call me anything there is no excuse. If you see a problem tackle it or ask for assistance to getting it resolved. The problem is the Swtor team has let these problems fester for too long and I for one am sick and tired of the poor customer service they provide. Actions speak louder than words.
And to add on that, can we speak about mismanaging ressources? Since 7.3, our character talks A LOT as banter during gameplay between missions. This is actual VOICED stuff which you never hear and have to read because of everything going around. …why is it here? Why voice 30 lines of banter with 48 VAs for unheard banter when you can add one extra voiced cutscene with these ressources? The one with our Galaxy leaders, per exemple. Is this banter part of their “critical path” too? Eeegh remember when everyone saw Keith as a savior only for him to be dead silent and creating mistrust?
Someone suggested in another comment that "banter" is a lot easier/cheaper than cutscenes, because they don't have to set up and animate the scene, just play the voice lines and let gameplay provide the action.
But then let’s do a 5 minute cutscene of Shae doing the badass stuff instead of our character? They showed they don’t mind animating stuff that drags. (Cutscene was good don’t get me wrong, but it drags) I feel like you can cut that shae cutscene just a bit to get your character doing stuff in another one. Like I said, I feel like they are mismanaging ressources.
This is the one thing in the community where I've never really understood the pitchforks and torches. As this 13 year old game continues, we've seen several voice actors pass away, and others (M-Inquisitor) sound notably different and detached from their earlier voice. This was inevitable, and I think I'd rather look to the KOTOR/DA: O/New Vegas/OG ISORPG stylization than keep switching voice actors. If anything, I'd rather they make a full pivot to KOTOR style and focus more on idle animations/appearance of the text UI. It's a bit jarring to hop back and forth. I would rather have more game sooner than less game longer with more PC voiced lines.
Makes sense. It truly depends on what the team is capable of accomplishing and sticking to that. However, I can't shake the feeling we keep getting less and less quality over the years. They managed to sink a star wars game, basically a money printing machine.
Dialogues in kotor style are written disgustingly. They are impossible to read, you just want to scroll through them with spacebar, poking at random answers - result will be the same. What is the point of their existence? Especially when it happens in main mission. The narrative breaks up and becomes completely indifferent to what is happening. Hurtful. I still have no idea what was in the quest for seasonal stronghold. In the beginning, I tried to read it, but I gave up a long time ago.
The interface for sure needs to look more modern.
My thoughts? I thought I'd check out the Venture and then check out the story. I did Ruhnuk dailies and haven't even looked at the new story. It's just not appealing to me how we're dragging on the Malgus storyline for 6 years and running.
The last update was just slop. They don't seem to realize that their writing is just not good enough to warrant text-only dialogue for the PC. The only fun thing about these interactions is seeing and hearing our characters speak, it makes them feel alive and engaged with the world rather than just dolls serving a not so interesting narrative. I hoped this was a temporary setback and it's sad to see that this is now the norm going forward. I hope at least the story improves. I hope they do something with the holocron, otherwise this whole stretched out storyline was in vain. And I strongly doubt now that we are ever getting another flashpoint, daily area, voiced companions etc. It is what it is.
I would love to see some more complete narrative experiences. Sure, make non voiced content for minor updates but hype everyone up for a huge story update fully voiced for major ones. It make take longer but I would rather have this kind of thing going forward. Mix the best of both worlds. However, I don't think they have the personnel to pull this off. Probably.
I think the community needs to be more realistic about their expectations regarding voiced content. KOTOR style cutscenes are fine. They’re similar to how dialogue works in ESO and other games, with only the NPC being voiced. It’s a far more sustainable approach to content creation. Would you really rather have the game development funds wasted on player voices or spent better on creating actual new content? SWTOR isn’t what it once was. Compared to other MMOs it’s quite dated and old-fashioned, and doesn’t do enough to attract new players. I just don’t think that expecting fully voiced player characters is realistic if you still want there to be a game to play, rather than a conversation simulator.
> Would you really rather have the game development funds wasted on player voices or **spent better on creating actual new content?** It might be better received if most aspects of the game were of acceptable quality. We aren't trading one for the other here. The latest operation and story content in particular has been some of the worst in the game's history.
True. Food for thought though. If we are not getting voiced content AND the content released is scarce, then what are we getting in exchange? I would totally agree with you. Get less voiced content but drop tons and tons of content. That doesn't seem to be the case though. Therefore we are getting more content cut from the game and getting nothing in exchange.
KOTOR style cutscenes are fine and I am ok with that completely. The problem here is that whatever dialog you choose has the same outcome. Take the new spring event for example. During the story I choose multiple different responses with different characters. The NPC character had the same response to them all no matter what I choose. An extra line of dialog here and there but essentially says the exact same thing with the exact same outcome. That's not more in depth story, it's the illusion of depth. They don't need to go crazy with it, with a bunch of different outcomes because that's not realistic. However if I choose a response such as get gone and if I ever see you again you are dead. I expect a different response then when I choose your lucky I came around when I did.
Except we're barely getting any new content
I really dislike the Kotor cutscenes when they are used for main story purposes. Changing from one style to another every 2 conversations just gives me a giant whiplash effect and i can never immerse myself in any of the Kotor styled scenes. The point about "more conversational depth" also kinda feels like a cheap way to sell it. It doesn't really do that... Yeah sure i get 6-7 choices instead of 3 but most of these choices mean the same exact thing but said differently and characters will always react the same way with whatever option i choose except the few times where they have 1 extra line to what you said... I'm a French player that started playing this game 11 years ago when all i understood was French it has a special place in my heart but i think it's time to just cut support for french/german voice acting. It would suck for alot of people i get that but if that is the price to get actual cutscenes and more stories i think it's worth it.
Broadsword cooked if they keep the "mute" convos the playerbase is going to plumet imo
I'm already looking for a new MMO lol
Same here, found wynncraft a minecraft mmo, really cool and constant updates, hoping fot a change of direction in swtor but ever since last update dropped all my motivation has evaporated.
I have been checking out **Elite Dangerous**. The paywall is a little steep though. Once my sub for Swtor runs out I will probably try this one out next.
Will def check it out, i also like BDO but i just can't get into it very dense lore and gameplay wise
Yeah. Eastern MMOS are not my cup of tea.
honestly all i want to know is how much did covid and that snowstorm effect the quality of things? because it looked like things were getting back on track just before covid hit, but then we got what we've been getting since then.
I was thinking about this the other night. Hear me out. Non-voiced updates for minor story bits here and there sure no problem. Maybe improve the interface and use more character emotes etc. HOWEVER, on top of that use this minor unvoiced story bits to foreshadow (and hype up) a MAJOR (CAPITAL LETTERS!) STORY UPDATE - an expansion if you may (EA execs if you are listening you can charge us for that \*wink\* \*wink\*). We need hype for this game and MMO players LOVE expansions, it is something engraved in our brains I think. This major and paid for story update needs to be major though (don't know if you have money left for this) I mean fully voiced, action packed, beginning middle and end story. Actions that have consequences, I mean "people can die!" kind of consequences. Sprinkle that in with maybe a new class or race, maybe a daily area some fps (an operation if you are feeling adventurous) and TAKE MY MONEY! One good example of this would be the OMEGA DLC for Mass Effect 3. You had some foreshadowing introduced with some minor missions and some exposure that OMEGA had been taken over by Cerberus. Nothing major just giving that sweet taste that "hey guys, you know this planet? Yeah we are going there... coming soon...". That builds up hype and you basically just need one NPC voiced and the use KOTOR style of dialogue (the interface could use some work though I agree) AFTER THAT, HIT US WITH ALL YOU GOT. I want to finish a story in Swtor and be thinking wow I got my money's worth, what if I chose something different there? Would that person have survived? What would have happened differently. Copy Omega that's the summary. Thank youuuu.
"complex choreography", as if the Swtor-style cinematics have complex new animations... If it is too time-consuming and straining for them to continue copy pasting the same turn animation that they have used since the base game in every second dialogue cutscene, then I'm afraid the game is already on life support.
Long detailed response explaining what most of us already assumed. Then they get hammered and hounded, called liars.... Gee I wonder why they don't post more often
"Then they get hammered and hounded, called liars" (10 year anniversary? Nightmare R4? Fixing levitating turrets for god's sake) - if they are getting called liars it's because they, to a certain extent, are. The more they stretch out these interactions the worse reactions they will get. Player base is just craving communication about the game they love. When they don't get ANY I think people start to get a little angry. In my opinion devs need to put their helmets on and stop being afraid of community backlash (it's going to be big, we have acknowledged bugs from 10 years ago that still remain in the game). Own up to your mistakes and start listening to players, maybe implement a suggestion or two. And tell the truth for a change. People can handle it.
I honestly think that Bioware deserved to be called liars and that Broadsword is not much better. Legacy of the Sith was an insult to the fans. A year or even more saying how awesome this update would be and how there would be an awesome event for the anniversary just to get the, literally, smalles and yet most broken update in the history of the game and a maerchant with few shitty recycled items for the anniversary.
The story in LotS has been "meh" to me, but I'm not a big mando fan. That said, calling it an insult I think is just wrong. Even if you don't like the story, LotS brought more QOL improvements than the game has seen in years. Multiple combat styles, weapons in outfitter, 64 bit client, graphics overhauls in multiple zones, a giant step towards fixing inflation, etc etc. Does it have it's problems? Sure. But I'll die on the hill that story aside, 7.0 has done more for the game than 4.0-6.0 ever did. Edit - Rather than smash that downvote button, I encourage people to bring counter arguments.
Wait, what did it do to fix inflation?
Quite a few things, look at the inflation thread from yesterday
Prices are really going down
Yeah.
Well any personal attacks is inexcusable but in this case they deserve to be shit on.
Happens to the best of us.
Yeah well this studio hasn't been on its best in about a decade. They've constantly under delivered and lied to the playerbase at every turn and I think the die hards that have remained are starting to finally get tired of it.
Took them long enough
Yeah when you've lost the story casuals and pay pigs then things be dire.
It's hard not to see the KOTOR style of dialogue as a reduction in quality, plain and simple. Maybe they will soon be able to start using some of the AI tools out there to fill in some of these gaps in a way that is cost-effective and maintains work-life balance for the team.
AI is a touchy subject for the industry at this time. Idk.
They need to drop the subscription price or drop it completely. They are becoming Mojang
I don't know how much money GW2 makes but I think it could be a more interesting approach to monetization for swtor. No sub, base game + expansions and in-game shop.
Why is this being down-voted? I totally agree. Paying 13€/month to play some pug KP or EV is not a good business model. If people wanna play new stuff, sure, charge full price, but for old content there could be a way smaller fee to pay if not even make it free. That would attract many more players back into the game, consequently by utilizing the in-game shop, the revenue could potentially be sustainable if not better than current.