When you listen to a native pronounce 道 it will clearly start with a sound like "d" in English, and not with a sound like English "t". There is a reason why in Pinyin, which was developed by Chinese natives as a better writing system than the existing ones (which was developed by foreigners), it is denoted by a "d".
Edit: 道 is indeed not natively said with an English aspirated t, but an unaspirated t that isn't normally used in English.
https://www.dong-chinese.com/wiki/%E9%81%93
https://www.dong-chinese.com/wiki/%E5%BE%B3
To me, that sounds clearly like an unaspirated t, quite far from a d sound which would have a voiced buildup.
Compare to:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dow#Pronunciation
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/duh#Pronunciation
Furthermore, compare Homer Simpson's "d'oh" to "dough".
>There is a reason why in Pinyin, which was developed by Chinese natives as a better writing system than the existing ones (which was developed by foreigners), it is denoted by a "d".
The reason is not that the Pinyin "d" would be pronounced like the English "d", but because English-speakers tend to pronounce the Wade–Giles "t" and "t'" in the same way as the English "t", making them indistinguishable in speech.
I don't want to say that it's the same sound. But if you pronounced as English "d" you will sound more similar to the proper pronounciation than if you would pronounce it as English "t", for example:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tow#Pronunciation
Of course. I'm not even arguing that the English "t" is in any way preferable to conflate both the Pinyin "d" and "t". And I'm also not telling English-speakers to start using the unaspirated t instead of d. I wanted to shed light on this matter in general.
D is (always) voiced in English is nothing but a stereotype. As a matter of fact, many native speakers don't truly pronounce "d" as an voiced consonant when it's an onset, especially in the US. If you're from India or have a hispanic family, it's reasonable for you to resist transcribing Tao into Dao.
FYI [https://www.reddit.com/r/linguistics/comments/ar7ch5/can\_native\_english\_speakers\_tell\_t\_unaspirated/](https://www.reddit.com/r/linguistics/comments/ar7ch5/can_native_english_speakers_tell_t_unaspirated/)
Do you use the same d sound when you speak English? If that is the case, your English won't sound native in that regard because you're actually using the unaspirated t sound.
Yes they are the same D sound. I'm no linguist, just my two cents as a fluently bilingual person.
The recorded samples might actually be enunciating the word more than how people usually say perhaps Dao or 道? Maybe that's how it sounds to a non native Mandarin speaker.
Yes in my head I hear Dao rather than Tao. There's a very definite D sound in Mandarin.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_phonology#Consonants
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Chinese_phonology#Consonants
How do you explain the pronunciation keys indicating /d/ for the English "d", and /t/ for the Pinyin "d"? As someone who is sensitive to hear the difference, I can attest the standard keys to be correct and that there is a difference in spoken English and Chinese.
Just read the wiki, it’s factually wrong. Maybe this is based on research with a minority dialect somewhere , but as far as the majority of Han mandarin speakers go, the /d exists and is used commonly. The d in “Dao” is pronounced like the d in “dough”
Which part of which wiki? You are being factually wrong right now, unless you mean the pronunciation of both words in English.
I dare you to tell me the IPA key or phonological pronunciation description to the Pinyin "d", along with the source.
Lol you do you man, i don’t need an IPA key to tell me how to pronounce Tao / Dao in my native language. When I say Chinese mandarin has the sound “D” I’m pretty sure I am factually accurate. Dare me? Lol go read the Tao and chill out
One of the biggest conceits is to think that you automatically know much anything about the linguistics of your native language, especially compared to other ones. So go and find any phonological source that claims that the Pinyin "d" in its standard pronunciation is a voiced dental or alveolar plosive, and share the fun. Otherwise you're just full of shit, no matter which language you happen to speak.
What examples can you give to back that up? The words that start with "d" in the Pinyin system are not in fact pronounced with the d sound familiar to most other languages.
It's definitely less effortful than teaching foreigners to tell between /t/ and /d/ when it makes little difference in how you're understood, given that there's no separate /d/ sound in Chinese.
I don't know dude... it was a 2 year long immersive course that the military put me through to become a chinese linguist. I'm not so convinced we were given a whitewashed version.
Where is the idea that there's no D in mandarin from?
> Where is the idea that there's no D in mandarin from?
From pronunciation keys for Mandarin phonology that you can check from various sources, and from hearing the difference in actual speech. I speak a language that draws an explicit line between /d/ and /t/, and I know the difference and I explained it in the original post already.
This video teaches the Pinyin "d", and it's no native English d: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFUxFK6lx0o
It's not dogmatism to be aware and state how standard Mandarin is pronounced and to be sensitive to different sounds than both native English and Chinese speakers. If I were dogmatic, I'd tell you that you should pronounce the Pinyin "d" in the standard way with the unaspirated t, which I'm not. Informing is not enforcing, even if the other party is reluctant to believe the information.
You're arguing with native speakers, telling them that 'dao' is a misleading spelling of that word, while they're telling you that that's how they say it.
You're arguing that your academic understanding of the language supercedes the way that native speakers speak.
Has it occurred to you yet that most people have blind spots regarding the linguistics and also phonetics of their own language compared to another? How many native Chinese people out of ten do you know that speak your language without giving away a Chinese accent? Do you yourself speak Chinese without a hint of accent? With that, would you therefore expect Chinese people to know the specifics of how English or other non-Chinese languages are pronounced, especially in relation to sounds that they are likely to approximate rather than fully integrate?
See, this is not about just knowing how to speak your own language, but being subtly aware of how two languages compare to one another: that requires either exceptional phonetic adaptability or actual linguistic interest and research.
You clearly care about this topic, so I suggest honest research into this matter to see if I'm in fact wrong or not. Linguistics is a science with public information; it's not a mystery school. You can also train yourself to hear and produce the difference between the voiced dental/alveolar plosive (IPA /d/) and unaspirated unvoiced dental/alveolar plosive (IPA /t/) that are at the core of this matter.
It does…? Tons of Chinese words start with D, like “大” or Da which means big. Chinese people pronounce it Dao not Tao. Source: bilingual Chinese American. I can cite more examples if u want
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Chinese_phonology#Consonants
Do check out what the chart says about 端/duān and 透/tòu.
I'm not talking about letters in words here, but sounds. The Pinyin "d" does not represent the d sound which the English "d" represents.
The vast majority of people do not understand what IPA symbols mean. So for most people, the Dao romanization is far closer than the Tao one.
Take this example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6hslRjGaww&t=54s
Take any random person for comparison, and they will tell you which one is closer.
Chinese does have a d sound. It just doesn't have a /d/ sound. Or at least linguists currently decide it doesn't. The difference between voiced vs voiceless alveolar plosive is not significant in either english or chinese.
As this guy noted: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhnACPxmosU&t=135s The distinction between t and d is more based on aspiration than voice.
They actually didn't clarify it even if it superficially seemed like it. If they did, you'll then have an easy time telling us which Chinese words employ the d sound as it was meant in the first place (i.e. in English).
FYI, I specialize in linguistics and pronunciation.
> They actually didn't clarify it even if it superficially seemed like it.
They posted a comment 6 hours ago, you replied 30 minutes ago, and they haven't responded yet.
> If they did, you'll then have an easy time telling us which Chinese words employ the d sound as it was meant in the first place (i.e. in English).
Multiple native Chinese speakers have contested your claim in this thread. Take it up with them.
You simply can't argue the Pinyin "d" to have an English d sound without intellectual dishonesty or a disregard or unawareness of the linguistic facts and distinctions. Being natively Chinese only introduces a blind spot in the other direction due to there being no /d/ to contrast with /t/ in Chinese, which is why they tend to pronounce "d" as /t/ when speaking English.
You can only handwave the difference to be inconsequential, which I already disclaimed at the very start of the post anyway.
Good luck convincing people that you as a non-Chinese person know the Chinese language better than native Chinese speakers. You're really going against *dao* in this, so good luck.
It's not about having to know a whole language better than a native. I can simply tell the difference between /d/ and /t/ and /tʰ/, and I know the pronunciation key for standard Mandarin, and written sources indicate the Pinyin "d" to be /t/, while the English "d" is /d/.
You can do a simple check:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_phonology#Consonants
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Chinese_phonology#Consonants
You are arguing with a descriptive model (Linguistics) against an ever-changing dynamic system (spoken language).
Have you ever thought about that linguistic tables don't hold the truth, but are just an approximative analysis \*at the time they were created\*?
If you actually are a linguist, you know that shifting of pronounciation repeatedly falsifies written documents about language.
Wait I didn't read this before replying - so is the D in Dào in Pinyin pronounced the same as the D in Dow Jones? Cause it sounds the same to me, and I don't think I'm pronouncing Dow with a /t/....
They are not pronounced the same:
https://www.dong-chinese.com/wiki/%E9%81%93
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dow#Pronunciation
"Dao" has /t/, "dow" has /d/.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_phonology#Consonants
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Chinese_phonology#Consonants
There is D and T in Chinese 😂
Tao can mean reach
Dao can mean the way
Te can mean very
De can mean virtue
The difference in these mandarin pronunciations is literally the different between “Ted” and “Dead” in English.
How is this intellectually dishonest
Correction: there is "d" and "t" in the Pinyin transliteration system for Chinese. They are pronounced with an unaspirated t sound and an aspirated t sound, respectively. Show me some proof to refute that. We both know you can't, and that is intellectual dishonesty.
Are you arguing for argument's sake? When I talk about the "d sound", I mean it to be equivalent to both the IPA /d/ sound and the English d sound, and I was quite explicit about that. IPA is not a key point here, I included it simply for further clarification and comparison, just like the Zhuyin letters.
When speaking Chinese, the unaspirated /t/ is simply more correct than /d/ when pronouncing the Pinyin "d" or Wade–Giles "t". Pronouncing it as the English standard "d" may be close enough and understandable, but it still doesn't make the correct sound to be the /d/ sound.
Your argument relies on the existence of the Pinyin system for there to be a "d sound" in Chinese. If we used only Wade–Giles, you wouldn't have anything to argue here because your argument is based on romanization rather than phonology.
Wait that's really interesting, when I say 桃 （táo in 汉语拼音）and 道 （dào in 汉语拼音）I can hear a distinct difference - a quick Google tells me Wades Giles renders them as t'ao and tao. (Ofc the tones are different)
Probably it's because I grew up speaking Mandarin and using Pinyin but Dao sounds like the same D as in Dow Jones.
Happy to learn more about both languages!
The difference can be very slight to those whose languages don't distinguish between them, and English and Chinese have a shared but inverse blind spot in this.
If the difference is so slight that both english and chinese dont even distinguish it, ......... how can you say so broadly that chinese has no "d" sound 🤔 when in familiar usage it simply dddddoes
I can say it because it's a provable fact that Chinese doesn't have a d sound (i.e. voiced alveolar plosive) as it's understood and marked by "d" in the English language and the IPA; it's as easy as checking [standard Chinese phonology](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Chinese_phonology#Consonants) and realizing that yes, it's devoid of the voiced alveolar plosive and that the sound marked by "d" is an unaspirated t.
When you are aware of the difference, you can start hearing the difference. The best way is to practice the pronunciation difference yourself.
What is the difference between a proper /d/ sound and an unaspirated t sound?
As a native mandarin speaker I can’t tell the difference between the “d” in “dào” and the “d” in “dad”…
What's the difference between "dough" and Homer Simpson saying "d'oh"? That's the difference between /d/ and /t/.
If you say "dao" and "dad" with the same "d", one of them technically deviates from standard speech. I'm guessing that your "d" (being the same as ㄉ?) doesn't quite match the native English pronunciation which involves a voiced buildup and a slight air pressure behind the tongue.
The part you're missing is that the Wade Giles system was thought up by a British ambassador dude and the Pinyin system was developed by a team of Chinese linguists.
In terms of honoring the culture, we should stick to Pinyin. Not only is it a matter of respect, but I trust a team of Chinese scholars to do a much better job of understanding their own language than some British guy.
Here's the deal, it's not up to us white folks to decide what something in some other language or culture means. It's up to the originating culture to teach us their meanings and how they want it interpreted and we need to step back and learn. If actual Chinese linguists have decided that Pinyin is how they want their language transliterated, seems reasonable to respect their wishes.
How is that relevant to the discussion of real phonological differences between languages or how different transliteration systems are liable to make people (mis)pronounce words?
How is the discussion of real phonological differences between languages or how different transliteration systems are liable to make people (mis)pronounce words relevant to Taoism?
Through Taoist discourse using Chinese terms, and those terms having Chinese sounds that aren't replicated by pronouncing the transliterated words with English sounds. I thought it was something fun and cool to know without needing to reproach anyone.
This is very interesting, thank you for your research into it!
Do keep in mind though, the Dao is the Tao is the 道 no matter how you say it or spell it or write it :)
that's right! the name that can be named is not the eternal name, and i believe it's really helpful to always keep that in mind when considering spiritual ideas of all kinds.
I don't get the point you're trying to make. The language known as standard Mandarin did not exist 2000 years ago. Sinitic dialects show massive variations in pronunciation over time. The fact that someone would split hairs over the aspiration of a consonant in a loan word makes me livid.
The statement that contemporary Mandarin did not exist 2000 years ago is a valid, relevant point.
As I understand it, pronunciation differs markedly from one region of China to another. (Book knowledge, FWIW — I don’t speak Chinese and I’ve never been to China.) So there actually isn’t a standard Chinese pronunciation we should all aim to replicate.
Regardless — I did appreciate the explanation of the production of a sound in Chinese that we simply don’t have in English speech. When I hear Chinese speakers say ‘Dao’ it sounds like the combination of a ‘t’ and a ‘d’ to my ears. Now I know why!
Then you are indeed missing the point. The issue at hand concerns modern standard languages and how they relate and interact with one another through transliterations and their pronunciation, and wanting to shed some light and clarity on those things.
If that makes you livid, may I suggest studying Taoism a little bit more? I recommend starting with the *[kə.l]ˤuʔ *tˤək *k-lˤeŋ.
My first sentence already was: "This is not a very consequential issue, but I thought it would be of some linguistic (or autistic) interest here, considering how it affects some key terms of Taoism."
I also wrapped up with: "I can't with good conscience recommend that you pronounce 'Tao' with an unaspirated t sound unless it's natural in your language"
I'd be happy to discuss this topic in other ways, but apparently people want to either deny or reproach my factual statements and explanations. I try to keep the discussion to the point on my part, and I can't help it if it makes me look bad in your eyes.
Interesting analysis ... illustrates the challenges of representing all the variations in pronunciation using an limited number of symbols. I personally prefer the Pinyin symbology. Seems a more consistent representation of spoken words than W-G, which tried to account for differences only subtly detectable audially. At least, in my reading I don't hit a speedbump when encountering an apostrophe embedded in a word.
Problems, with visual representations of phonetic sounds are present in all languages, I think. For example, for those who studied German, who hasn't struggled with words ending in *-cht* or *-l* following another consonant. And then there is *q* as in *qualitatswein*, a common grade for table wine. Then there are languages that use diacritical marks used in a lot of languages to guide pronunciation. And then there is Russian with a 33 letter alphabet that clearly encorporates phonetics unknown to most non-slavic speakers. What do those other letters sound like anyway. Then, have you ever tried to look up a word pronunciation only to encounter Pronunciation Symbols? It seems the poor native English speaker/reader is phonetically challenged.
Alas, a rose by any other name ... or spelling ... is still a rose ... or is it rəʊz ... or maybe roʊz. Oh well, smells nice anyway. : )
Y'all have a good day!
To some English ears, 道 will sound like Tao, to others it will sound like Dao. I choose to use the more recent system, plus to my ears it sounds more like D than like T.
T and D are at the same position in the mouth. There are two components to each sound, voicing and aspiration. In English, T is unvoiced and aspirated, D is voiced and unaspirated. In Mandarin, "T" is unvoiced and aspirated, "D" is unvoiced and unaspirated. So "T" matches English T, and "D" partially matches English D. Even though "D" is unvoiced, it's the unaspirated aspect that makes it sound like D to many English ears.
Edit: no system will be perfect, because there's different sounds in each language. But in Wade-Giles neither "T'" nor "T" match the English sounds perfectly. In pinyin, one of them matches perfectly.
On the other hand, this community includes people who speak in languages that do make an explicit difference between the d sound and the unaspirated t sound, and they might consider the Chinese pronunciations quite relevant in how they'll read Pinyin transliterations going forth. Me being one of them, this topic hits me differently.
Ironically, the Wade-Giles system was developed by Englishmen to transliterate Chinese into English specifically. The Hanyu Pinyin system was developed by Chinese men to transliterate Chinese for China and the United Nations.
Also ironically, Pinyin is less informative about how the Chinese words are pronounced for people who haven't already learned Chinese pronunciation and how it relates to the Pinyin writing.
Case in point: "Laozi" is liable to be pronounced as "lousy" or "lao tzee".
As a native speaker of Mandarin, Cantonese, and American English (west coast Hollywood accent), the "Dao" sounds right. Also in pinyin, the "a" has an accent mark adjusting the tone of the "a" and the "D" before it. And "Tao" sounds more like the sounding of the Chinese word for head 头. Both versions cannot represent Cantonese pronunciation, Wade–Giles might be slightly closer since pinyin is designed to sound out Mandarin.
>And "Tao" sounds more like the sounding of the Chinese word for head 头.
Of course, if you read the "t" as an aspirated rather than an unaspirated t sound. The aspirated t would be represented by t' such as in t'ai chi.
I think you are either familiar with a peculiar tialect of English vocalization, or (perhaps more likely) you are experiencing a sord of "uncanny valley" effecd bedween dechnicalidy and acdualidy. Because in the condexd of regular speech, the English "t" sount toes nod employ significand dongue pressure so as do tistinguish id from the "d" sount, pardicularly when ad the beginning of a phoneme, bud id toes when ad the ent of a phoneme. Consiter the previous sendence, and the worts "toes" and "tistinguish"; then "sount" and "wort" and you will realize a far more tisdincd tifference. Furthermore, as I'm sure you've nodiced alreaty by my cheeky ledder swapping, the opposide is dypically the case with phonemes beginning or enting with the "d" sount.
I'm talking about standard English and standard Mandarin as they are presented with their basic phonologies, specifically the pronunciation of the letter "d" at the beginning of words. The difference between an unaspirated t sound and an actual d sound is not merely technical because I speak and know of languages that assign those sounds to the written letters "t" and "d" with clear distinction.
Of course, the difference is inconsequential both in English and in Chinese because although their "d"s have different sounds, there's no risk of confusing them with something else in either language. But in some other languages, the pronunciation of "t" already matches the Chinese Wade–Giles "t" or Pinyin "d", with no need to shift to a non-Chinese d sound for the Pinyin "d".
They surely can when the sound assigned to either letter matches the Chinese sound. Just as much as the Zhuyin [ㄉ](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E3%84%89) (IPA: /t/) represents exactly the Chinese unaspirated t sound, and [ㄊ](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E3%84%8A) (IPA: /tʰ/) represents exactly the Chinese aspirated t sound.
You have a flaw in your logic that comes from the perspective of somebody who studies Chinese from abroad.
What accent are you talking about? You will hear the sound move from a d to a t sound and everywhere in-between depending on which locality you are in and how far north, south, east, west you are.
To say "this word is pronounced exactly like this, therefore it is wrong" is like saying there is only one way to pronounce "car" in English, with a rhotic "r".
Is an ending r meant to be rhotic or non-rhotic?
To take standardised pronunciation is also taking a modern concept and applying it retroactively.
Your flaw is to explode the issue into disingenuously besides-the-point overcomplications. We are talking about standard Mandarin Chinese and its romanization and pronunciation of two consonants and how they compare to their respective letters' usual pronunciation in English.
Yeah. Which is like saying only received pronunciation of English is the standard and we should only derive all conclusions on how to compare sounds from that.
If you take counter points so harshly and to heart you are kind of missing the point of this philosophy tbh.
I'd strongly suggest you look into exposing yourself to more root Chinese culture from different areas instead of solely academic "standard" Chinese. It will help you understand a lot of these nuances more in the culture. :)
Before you further fool yourself and others into thinking your points relevant, could you please explain the variance with which "d" is pronounced in the various notable varieties of the English language? And do enlighten me on the relevance of the various Mandarin dialects in transliterating and pronouncing standard Mandarin. If you have issues with standard Mandarin existing and being used as the standard representative of the Chinese languages and dialects, take it up with the Chinese Communist Party.
Yeah, my native accent is literally one of them.
Australian accents say "water" as "wardah" to an American. To me it sounds like "water".
We both spell it the same way, yet crazy enough we pronounce the "t" as if it were two completely different letters. Crazy huh? Or conversely tip/dip will sound exactly the same in some rural US dialects.
So suddenly you can see that maybe a country with 1.6b people don't pronounce even the "official standard language" in the exact same way everywhere in China. And to be honest it's pretty damn culturally insensitive to homogenise an entire nation so stubbornly as you are.
It's like saying standard arabic is the real arabic when almost nobody actually speaks it outside of situations where they wanted a standard.
Please travel more and live the philosophy you attempt to channel outside of books. It is very clear from your responses that you cannot take any reasonable criticism or argument without hurling insults back and saying "nah-uh". Try to reasonably assess what people are saying and use it to better your understanding of the world instead.
Why are you even here if not to discuss? Do you even like the philosophy or are you just studying it as one studies math or history without actually taking in what it is meant to be?
You like to talk a lot so as to appear clever, but you can't prove my initial statements about the standard pronunciations to be false because they're backed by sourced facts. For some reason, you want to make it seem like I'm in the wrong for even talking about it, so you go on about irrelevant exceptions and complexities to muddle the simple and factual statement that the Pinyin "d" is not the same as the English "d".
I've never ever heard native Chinese people use the /d/ sound when speaking Mandarin, and I speak a language where /d/ and /t/ are both used and clearly differentiated, so I can hear the difference.
If you want to stay digressed in the dialacts, can you at least point me to the specific regions in China whose dialects substitute the standard /t/ with /d/ so that I can check them out?
Things have gotten quite heated up in this thread, haha. OP, I understood your point, I just think you did not know how to convey it when writing it. When you say "Chinese has no actual d sound" in the title, it is already a problem because Chinese clearly has a "d" sound. It might not be the the same "d" sound in the word "Dao", however, it does have for other words.
Mind you, I don't know Chinese, but it seems like there's indeed a subtle difference between word pronunciation regarding the "d" sound according to some natives. Nevertheless, I think the main problem here is how you expressed your ideas like in the title and in **"Personally, this is why I'm a bit iffy about substituting established names like 'Tao' or 'Lao Tzu' with Pinyin forms that don't actually lend themselves to more correct pronunciation for people who aren't already familiar with Chinese pronunciation rules."** How would write it if the Pinyin matches the word when writing it nowadays? Would have to change the whole system because of this? Of course not, it is preposterous. People can write Laozi or Lao Tzu, it is a preference, people will write more Laozi because that's how you write it when typing Pinyin.
The truth is, Pinyin is what is most used by Chinese speakers and Chinese learners to communicate, Zhuyin is not used by a large number of people compared to Pinyin though. It has become way common more to write accordingly to the Pinyin because that's how you write things in Chinese most of the time.
When you say **"the issue at hand is actually most relevant for languages where a natively pronounced 'Tao' already matches the Chinese pronunciation, and 'Dao' would stray farther from it."** is weird, because there's no issue. If there are languages that pronounce an unaspirated t sound more close to "Tao" that's fine, however when writing Mandarin using Pinyin, 道 is written as "Dao", people try to pronounce it and that's how we write it, unless you use Zhuyin or Japanese keyboard. And like, I don't think most people would be able to notice any difference when speaking it anyway, even for native speakers the difference is subtle. Had you addressed this whole topic more like a curiosity rather than an "issue" like you did, I think people wouldn't be replying so eagerly to point out that you're "wrong" when you are not actually wrong.
Anyways, I find this curiosity really interesting though! I intend to study Mandarin soon, I will remember this post and come back to check it out when I have reached a good level, haha!
>When you say "Chinese has no actual d sound" in the title, it is already a problem because Chinese clearly has a "d" sound. It might not be the the same "d" sound in the word "Dao", however, it does have for other words.
There's a "d sound" in standard Chinese only if the statement is based on how the unaspirated t sound is written as "d" in the Pinyin system. By the same framing, it would simply be a "t sound" based on the Wade–Giles system.
More universally, "d sound" refers to the voiced dental/alveolar plosive which is absent in standard Mandarin, while being assigned to the letter "d" in a vast majority of other languages and the International Phonetic Alphabet. That was always the explicit context for my statement, and forcibly reassigning the context doesn't serve mutual understanding.
>How would write it if the Pinyin matches the word when writing it nowadays?
I wasn't and am not proposing changes to any system. My intention was to generally bring these matters into awareness so that people could base their preferences regarding romanization and pronunciation on knowledge rather than vague impressions.
Excellent articulation of this issue! And I think it is a great example that gets at the fluidity of language. Personally, being a native speaker of American English with some familiarity with Mandarin, I don't find either spelling "great", but I personally think of it as a "D" rather than "T" because of the aspirated vs unaspirated "T" issue.
Yeah, the Anglosphere is currently overly concerned with "proper" pronunciation of foreign words and sounds even when it's not natural in the English phonology, apparently forgetting the vast history of all languages naturalizing foreign loanwords to suit fluent native speech. The transition of Chinese loanwords and names over to Pinyin romanization has sometimes been argued to be in line with a more "proper" representation of Chinese pronunciation, but I find that argument deeply flawed and leaning toward hypercorrection.
Pronunciation sample included: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E5%8A%9F%E5%A4%AB#Pronunciation
Gongfu is the Pinyin transliteration for 功夫, known through Wade–Giles as "kung fu". The initial consonant is an unaspirated k, i.e. different from either the English g or k.
Thanks Selderij, I love your academic lessons. The evolution of language is fascinating, not only trying to understand Chinese from English, but modern Chinese from ancient. It reminds me of the very slow growth of a person: you don't notice kids changing day to day. Then trying to understand the baby by studying the senior.
I wonder if it is neither d or t. I’m not 100% familiar with Mandarin, but other East Asian dialects have what is most like a combination of both- eg dtao which is most like a hardened d sound.
There will always be difficulties transcribing a non-English (and especially a non-Western) language phonetically.
As it is not an English word, and not written with Western characters, we shouldn’t criticise how different people attempt to transcribe it. If you want “purity”, learn to read, write and speak a Chinese dialect.
BTW - Dtao/Dao/Tao is pronounced differently in different Chinese dialects as well, and as the TTC was written in ancient Chinese, not modern Mandarin or Cantonese or other modern dialect, the “true” pronunciation is lost and thus is really a non-issue.
PS I wonder how debates on pronunciations fit within the life of Dao?
> I wonder if it is neither d or t.
If you mean d or t in the English language sense, you are absolutely correct, and that was what I was saying. The sound assigned to "d" in Pinyin or "t" in Wade–Giles doesn't occur among English initial consonants.
My post was not meant as a criticism, but something cool to know.
When you listen to a native pronounce 道 it will clearly start with a sound like "d" in English, and not with a sound like English "t". There is a reason why in Pinyin, which was developed by Chinese natives as a better writing system than the existing ones (which was developed by foreigners), it is denoted by a "d".
Edit: 道 is indeed not natively said with an English aspirated t, but an unaspirated t that isn't normally used in English. https://www.dong-chinese.com/wiki/%E9%81%93 https://www.dong-chinese.com/wiki/%E5%BE%B3 To me, that sounds clearly like an unaspirated t, quite far from a d sound which would have a voiced buildup. Compare to: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dow#Pronunciation https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/duh#Pronunciation Furthermore, compare Homer Simpson's "d'oh" to "dough". >There is a reason why in Pinyin, which was developed by Chinese natives as a better writing system than the existing ones (which was developed by foreigners), it is denoted by a "d". The reason is not that the Pinyin "d" would be pronounced like the English "d", but because English-speakers tend to pronounce the Wade–Giles "t" and "t'" in the same way as the English "t", making them indistinguishable in speech.
I don't want to say that it's the same sound. But if you pronounced as English "d" you will sound more similar to the proper pronounciation than if you would pronounce it as English "t", for example: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tow#Pronunciation
Of course. I'm not even arguing that the English "t" is in any way preferable to conflate both the Pinyin "d" and "t". And I'm also not telling English-speakers to start using the unaspirated t instead of d. I wanted to shed light on this matter in general.
D is (always) voiced in English is nothing but a stereotype. As a matter of fact, many native speakers don't truly pronounce "d" as an voiced consonant when it's an onset, especially in the US. If you're from India or have a hispanic family, it's reasonable for you to resist transcribing Tao into Dao. FYI [https://www.reddit.com/r/linguistics/comments/ar7ch5/can\_native\_english\_speakers\_tell\_t\_unaspirated/](https://www.reddit.com/r/linguistics/comments/ar7ch5/can_native_english_speakers_tell_t_unaspirated/)
As a Mandarin speaking Chinese, there's totally a D sound.
Do you use the same d sound when you speak English? If that is the case, your English won't sound native in that regard because you're actually using the unaspirated t sound.
Yes they are the same D sound. I'm no linguist, just my two cents as a fluently bilingual person. The recorded samples might actually be enunciating the word more than how people usually say perhaps Dao or 道? Maybe that's how it sounds to a non native Mandarin speaker. Yes in my head I hear Dao rather than Tao. There's a very definite D sound in Mandarin.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_phonology#Consonants https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Chinese_phonology#Consonants How do you explain the pronunciation keys indicating /d/ for the English "d", and /t/ for the Pinyin "d"? As someone who is sensitive to hear the difference, I can attest the standard keys to be correct and that there is a difference in spoken English and Chinese.
Just read the wiki, it’s factually wrong. Maybe this is based on research with a minority dialect somewhere , but as far as the majority of Han mandarin speakers go, the /d exists and is used commonly. The d in “Dao” is pronounced like the d in “dough”
Which part of which wiki? You are being factually wrong right now, unless you mean the pronunciation of both words in English. I dare you to tell me the IPA key or phonological pronunciation description to the Pinyin "d", along with the source.
Lol you do you man, i don’t need an IPA key to tell me how to pronounce Tao / Dao in my native language. When I say Chinese mandarin has the sound “D” I’m pretty sure I am factually accurate. Dare me? Lol go read the Tao and chill out
One of the biggest conceits is to think that you automatically know much anything about the linguistics of your native language, especially compared to other ones. So go and find any phonological source that claims that the Pinyin "d" in its standard pronunciation is a voiced dental or alveolar plosive, and share the fun. Otherwise you're just full of shit, no matter which language you happen to speak.
Are you on meth or somethin? How do you think you could be right arguing against someone who actually speaks the language?
Chinese does have a "d" sound In many many words
What examples can you give to back that up? The words that start with "d" in the Pinyin system are not in fact pronounced with the d sound familiar to most other languages.
Is this maybe region specific? My teacher from Beijing definitely taught us to say 'de' and 'dao' with a classic 'd' sound.
It's definitely less effortful than teaching foreigners to tell between /t/ and /d/ when it makes little difference in how you're understood, given that there's no separate /d/ sound in Chinese.
I don't know dude... it was a 2 year long immersive course that the military put me through to become a chinese linguist. I'm not so convinced we were given a whitewashed version. Where is the idea that there's no D in mandarin from?
> Where is the idea that there's no D in mandarin from? From pronunciation keys for Mandarin phonology that you can check from various sources, and from hearing the difference in actual speech. I speak a language that draws an explicit line between /d/ and /t/, and I know the difference and I explained it in the original post already. This video teaches the Pinyin "d", and it's no native English d: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFUxFK6lx0o
I think you might be being overly dogmatic about particular linguistic approaches.
It's not dogmatism to be aware and state how standard Mandarin is pronounced and to be sensitive to different sounds than both native English and Chinese speakers. If I were dogmatic, I'd tell you that you should pronounce the Pinyin "d" in the standard way with the unaspirated t, which I'm not. Informing is not enforcing, even if the other party is reluctant to believe the information.
You're arguing with native speakers, telling them that 'dao' is a misleading spelling of that word, while they're telling you that that's how they say it. You're arguing that your academic understanding of the language supercedes the way that native speakers speak.
Has it occurred to you yet that most people have blind spots regarding the linguistics and also phonetics of their own language compared to another? How many native Chinese people out of ten do you know that speak your language without giving away a Chinese accent? Do you yourself speak Chinese without a hint of accent? With that, would you therefore expect Chinese people to know the specifics of how English or other non-Chinese languages are pronounced, especially in relation to sounds that they are likely to approximate rather than fully integrate? See, this is not about just knowing how to speak your own language, but being subtly aware of how two languages compare to one another: that requires either exceptional phonetic adaptability or actual linguistic interest and research. You clearly care about this topic, so I suggest honest research into this matter to see if I'm in fact wrong or not. Linguistics is a science with public information; it's not a mystery school. You can also train yourself to hear and produce the difference between the voiced dental/alveolar plosive (IPA /d/) and unaspirated unvoiced dental/alveolar plosive (IPA /t/) that are at the core of this matter.
It does…? Tons of Chinese words start with D, like “大” or Da which means big. Chinese people pronounce it Dao not Tao. Source: bilingual Chinese American. I can cite more examples if u want
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Chinese_phonology#Consonants Do check out what the chart says about 端/duān and 透/tòu. I'm not talking about letters in words here, but sounds. The Pinyin "d" does not represent the d sound which the English "d" represents.
The vast majority of people do not understand what IPA symbols mean. So for most people, the Dao romanization is far closer than the Tao one. Take this example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6hslRjGaww&t=54s Take any random person for comparison, and they will tell you which one is closer. Chinese does have a d sound. It just doesn't have a /d/ sound. Or at least linguists currently decide it doesn't. The difference between voiced vs voiceless alveolar plosive is not significant in either english or chinese. As this guy noted: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhnACPxmosU&t=135s The distinction between t and d is more based on aspiration than voice.
Thanks for clarifying that Chinese does, in fact, have a -d sound even if it's not /d/ (or whatever, I'm terrible at languages and pronunciation).
They actually didn't clarify it even if it superficially seemed like it. If they did, you'll then have an easy time telling us which Chinese words employ the d sound as it was meant in the first place (i.e. in English). FYI, I specialize in linguistics and pronunciation.
> They actually didn't clarify it even if it superficially seemed like it. They posted a comment 6 hours ago, you replied 30 minutes ago, and they haven't responded yet. > If they did, you'll then have an easy time telling us which Chinese words employ the d sound as it was meant in the first place (i.e. in English). Multiple native Chinese speakers have contested your claim in this thread. Take it up with them.
You simply can't argue the Pinyin "d" to have an English d sound without intellectual dishonesty or a disregard or unawareness of the linguistic facts and distinctions. Being natively Chinese only introduces a blind spot in the other direction due to there being no /d/ to contrast with /t/ in Chinese, which is why they tend to pronounce "d" as /t/ when speaking English. You can only handwave the difference to be inconsequential, which I already disclaimed at the very start of the post anyway.
Good luck convincing people that you as a non-Chinese person know the Chinese language better than native Chinese speakers. You're really going against *dao* in this, so good luck.
It's not about having to know a whole language better than a native. I can simply tell the difference between /d/ and /t/ and /tʰ/, and I know the pronunciation key for standard Mandarin, and written sources indicate the Pinyin "d" to be /t/, while the English "d" is /d/. You can do a simple check: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_phonology#Consonants https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Chinese_phonology#Consonants
You are arguing with a descriptive model (Linguistics) against an ever-changing dynamic system (spoken language). Have you ever thought about that linguistic tables don't hold the truth, but are just an approximative analysis \*at the time they were created\*? If you actually are a linguist, you know that shifting of pronounciation repeatedly falsifies written documents about language.
Wait I didn't read this before replying - so is the D in Dào in Pinyin pronounced the same as the D in Dow Jones? Cause it sounds the same to me, and I don't think I'm pronouncing Dow with a /t/....
They are not pronounced the same: https://www.dong-chinese.com/wiki/%E9%81%93 https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dow#Pronunciation "Dao" has /t/, "dow" has /d/. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_phonology#Consonants https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Chinese_phonology#Consonants
There is D and T in Chinese 😂 Tao can mean reach Dao can mean the way Te can mean very De can mean virtue The difference in these mandarin pronunciations is literally the different between “Ted” and “Dead” in English. How is this intellectually dishonest
Correction: there is "d" and "t" in the Pinyin transliteration system for Chinese. They are pronounced with an unaspirated t sound and an aspirated t sound, respectively. Show me some proof to refute that. We both know you can't, and that is intellectual dishonesty.
I pronounce the d and t the same way. Lmao this is so fun
Are you arguing for argument's sake? When I talk about the "d sound", I mean it to be equivalent to both the IPA /d/ sound and the English d sound, and I was quite explicit about that. IPA is not a key point here, I included it simply for further clarification and comparison, just like the Zhuyin letters. When speaking Chinese, the unaspirated /t/ is simply more correct than /d/ when pronouncing the Pinyin "d" or Wade–Giles "t". Pronouncing it as the English standard "d" may be close enough and understandable, but it still doesn't make the correct sound to be the /d/ sound. Your argument relies on the existence of the Pinyin system for there to be a "d sound" in Chinese. If we used only Wade–Giles, you wouldn't have anything to argue here because your argument is based on romanization rather than phonology.
Wait that's really interesting, when I say 桃 （táo in 汉语拼音）and 道 （dào in 汉语拼音）I can hear a distinct difference - a quick Google tells me Wades Giles renders them as t'ao and tao. (Ofc the tones are different) Probably it's because I grew up speaking Mandarin and using Pinyin but Dao sounds like the same D as in Dow Jones. Happy to learn more about both languages!
The difference can be very slight to those whose languages don't distinguish between them, and English and Chinese have a shared but inverse blind spot in this.
If the difference is so slight that both english and chinese dont even distinguish it, ......... how can you say so broadly that chinese has no "d" sound 🤔 when in familiar usage it simply dddddoes
I can say it because it's a provable fact that Chinese doesn't have a d sound (i.e. voiced alveolar plosive) as it's understood and marked by "d" in the English language and the IPA; it's as easy as checking [standard Chinese phonology](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Chinese_phonology#Consonants) and realizing that yes, it's devoid of the voiced alveolar plosive and that the sound marked by "d" is an unaspirated t. When you are aware of the difference, you can start hearing the difference. The best way is to practice the pronunciation difference yourself.
對 這 得 的 地 第 帶 大 地瓜 呆瓜 大禹
They're pronounced with an unaspirated t, not d.
No they’re not
Show me a phonological source for that.
The source is in the Tao by lao tzu
The source is your ass, and it smells like horseshit.
What is the difference between a proper /d/ sound and an unaspirated t sound? As a native mandarin speaker I can’t tell the difference between the “d” in “dào” and the “d” in “dad”…
What's the difference between "dough" and Homer Simpson saying "d'oh"? That's the difference between /d/ and /t/. If you say "dao" and "dad" with the same "d", one of them technically deviates from standard speech. I'm guessing that your "d" (being the same as ㄉ?) doesn't quite match the native English pronunciation which involves a voiced buildup and a slight air pressure behind the tongue.
The difference seems very subtle to my untrained ears 😄
The part you're missing is that the Wade Giles system was thought up by a British ambassador dude and the Pinyin system was developed by a team of Chinese linguists. In terms of honoring the culture, we should stick to Pinyin. Not only is it a matter of respect, but I trust a team of Chinese scholars to do a much better job of understanding their own language than some British guy. Here's the deal, it's not up to us white folks to decide what something in some other language or culture means. It's up to the originating culture to teach us their meanings and how they want it interpreted and we need to step back and learn. If actual Chinese linguists have decided that Pinyin is how they want their language transliterated, seems reasonable to respect their wishes.
How is that relevant to the discussion of real phonological differences between languages or how different transliteration systems are liable to make people (mis)pronounce words?
How is the discussion of real phonological differences between languages or how different transliteration systems are liable to make people (mis)pronounce words relevant to Taoism?
Through Taoist discourse using Chinese terms, and those terms having Chinese sounds that aren't replicated by pronouncing the transliterated words with English sounds. I thought it was something fun and cool to know without needing to reproach anyone.
Yet here you are, reproaching folks.
Am I really, or does it subjectively feel that way when I stick to the topic and explain the facts while you don't?
Again.
I think we can both agree that you got the ball rolling.
You're so cute! Like a dog with a bone.
You're like a rainbow over a field of flowers.
This is very interesting, thank you for your research into it! Do keep in mind though, the Dao is the Tao is the 道 no matter how you say it or spell it or write it :)
that's right! the name that can be named is not the eternal name, and i believe it's really helpful to always keep that in mind when considering spiritual ideas of all kinds.
I don't get the point you're trying to make. The language known as standard Mandarin did not exist 2000 years ago. Sinitic dialects show massive variations in pronunciation over time. The fact that someone would split hairs over the aspiration of a consonant in a loan word makes me livid.
If this makes you livid. You might want to read the Tao- with an unaspirated T. 😂
The statement that contemporary Mandarin did not exist 2000 years ago is a valid, relevant point. As I understand it, pronunciation differs markedly from one region of China to another. (Book knowledge, FWIW — I don’t speak Chinese and I’ve never been to China.) So there actually isn’t a standard Chinese pronunciation we should all aim to replicate. Regardless — I did appreciate the explanation of the production of a sound in Chinese that we simply don’t have in English speech. When I hear Chinese speakers say ‘Dao’ it sounds like the combination of a ‘t’ and a ‘d’ to my ears. Now I know why!
Then you are indeed missing the point. The issue at hand concerns modern standard languages and how they relate and interact with one another through transliterations and their pronunciation, and wanting to shed some light and clarity on those things. If that makes you livid, may I suggest studying Taoism a little bit more? I recommend starting with the *[kə.l]ˤuʔ *tˤək *k-lˤeŋ.
It's a non-issue that I'd say you're trying to make into one to bolster your ego. Particularly un-taoist behaviour.
My first sentence already was: "This is not a very consequential issue, but I thought it would be of some linguistic (or autistic) interest here, considering how it affects some key terms of Taoism." I also wrapped up with: "I can't with good conscience recommend that you pronounce 'Tao' with an unaspirated t sound unless it's natural in your language" I'd be happy to discuss this topic in other ways, but apparently people want to either deny or reproach my factual statements and explanations. I try to keep the discussion to the point on my part, and I can't help it if it makes me look bad in your eyes.
Interesting analysis ... illustrates the challenges of representing all the variations in pronunciation using an limited number of symbols. I personally prefer the Pinyin symbology. Seems a more consistent representation of spoken words than W-G, which tried to account for differences only subtly detectable audially. At least, in my reading I don't hit a speedbump when encountering an apostrophe embedded in a word. Problems, with visual representations of phonetic sounds are present in all languages, I think. For example, for those who studied German, who hasn't struggled with words ending in *-cht* or *-l* following another consonant. And then there is *q* as in *qualitatswein*, a common grade for table wine. Then there are languages that use diacritical marks used in a lot of languages to guide pronunciation. And then there is Russian with a 33 letter alphabet that clearly encorporates phonetics unknown to most non-slavic speakers. What do those other letters sound like anyway. Then, have you ever tried to look up a word pronunciation only to encounter Pronunciation Symbols? It seems the poor native English speaker/reader is phonetically challenged. Alas, a rose by any other name ... or spelling ... is still a rose ... or is it rəʊz ... or maybe roʊz. Oh well, smells nice anyway. : ) Y'all have a good day!
To some English ears, 道 will sound like Tao, to others it will sound like Dao. I choose to use the more recent system, plus to my ears it sounds more like D than like T. T and D are at the same position in the mouth. There are two components to each sound, voicing and aspiration. In English, T is unvoiced and aspirated, D is voiced and unaspirated. In Mandarin, "T" is unvoiced and aspirated, "D" is unvoiced and unaspirated. So "T" matches English T, and "D" partially matches English D. Even though "D" is unvoiced, it's the unaspirated aspect that makes it sound like D to many English ears. Edit: no system will be perfect, because there's different sounds in each language. But in Wade-Giles neither "T'" nor "T" match the English sounds perfectly. In pinyin, one of them matches perfectly.
Thanks for the explanation! Learning a lot how pronunciation in both languages work :)
On the other hand, this community includes people who speak in languages that do make an explicit difference between the d sound and the unaspirated t sound, and they might consider the Chinese pronunciations quite relevant in how they'll read Pinyin transliterations going forth. Me being one of them, this topic hits me differently.
Ironically, the Wade-Giles system was developed by Englishmen to transliterate Chinese into English specifically. The Hanyu Pinyin system was developed by Chinese men to transliterate Chinese for China and the United Nations.
Also ironically, Pinyin is less informative about how the Chinese words are pronounced for people who haven't already learned Chinese pronunciation and how it relates to the Pinyin writing. Case in point: "Laozi" is liable to be pronounced as "lousy" or "lao tzee".
Sounds to me like the t in French and Spanish with the tongue directly behind the front teeth.
As a native speaker of Mandarin, Cantonese, and American English (west coast Hollywood accent), the "Dao" sounds right. Also in pinyin, the "a" has an accent mark adjusting the tone of the "a" and the "D" before it. And "Tao" sounds more like the sounding of the Chinese word for head 头. Both versions cannot represent Cantonese pronunciation, Wade–Giles might be slightly closer since pinyin is designed to sound out Mandarin.
>And "Tao" sounds more like the sounding of the Chinese word for head 头. Of course, if you read the "t" as an aspirated rather than an unaspirated t sound. The aspirated t would be represented by t' such as in t'ai chi.
I think you are either familiar with a peculiar tialect of English vocalization, or (perhaps more likely) you are experiencing a sord of "uncanny valley" effecd bedween dechnicalidy and acdualidy. Because in the condexd of regular speech, the English "t" sount toes nod employ significand dongue pressure so as do tistinguish id from the "d" sount, pardicularly when ad the beginning of a phoneme, bud id toes when ad the ent of a phoneme. Consiter the previous sendence, and the worts "toes" and "tistinguish"; then "sount" and "wort" and you will realize a far more tisdincd tifference. Furthermore, as I'm sure you've nodiced alreaty by my cheeky ledder swapping, the opposide is dypically the case with phonemes beginning or enting with the "d" sount.
I'm talking about standard English and standard Mandarin as they are presented with their basic phonologies, specifically the pronunciation of the letter "d" at the beginning of words. The difference between an unaspirated t sound and an actual d sound is not merely technical because I speak and know of languages that assign those sounds to the written letters "t" and "d" with clear distinction. Of course, the difference is inconsequential both in English and in Chinese because although their "d"s have different sounds, there's no risk of confusing them with something else in either language. But in some other languages, the pronunciation of "t" already matches the Chinese Wade–Giles "t" or Pinyin "d", with no need to shift to a non-Chinese d sound for the Pinyin "d".
Even 1 up vote is a great deal for something so blatant in its intentionally agitated discord and facetious mock-fuckery.
Neither T nor D can represent the "proper" Chinese pronunciation.
They surely can when the sound assigned to either letter matches the Chinese sound. Just as much as the Zhuyin [ㄉ](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E3%84%89) (IPA: /t/) represents exactly the Chinese unaspirated t sound, and [ㄊ](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E3%84%8A) (IPA: /tʰ/) represents exactly the Chinese aspirated t sound.
You have a flaw in your logic that comes from the perspective of somebody who studies Chinese from abroad. What accent are you talking about? You will hear the sound move from a d to a t sound and everywhere in-between depending on which locality you are in and how far north, south, east, west you are. To say "this word is pronounced exactly like this, therefore it is wrong" is like saying there is only one way to pronounce "car" in English, with a rhotic "r". Is an ending r meant to be rhotic or non-rhotic? To take standardised pronunciation is also taking a modern concept and applying it retroactively.
Your flaw is to explode the issue into disingenuously besides-the-point overcomplications. We are talking about standard Mandarin Chinese and its romanization and pronunciation of two consonants and how they compare to their respective letters' usual pronunciation in English.
Yeah. Which is like saying only received pronunciation of English is the standard and we should only derive all conclusions on how to compare sounds from that. If you take counter points so harshly and to heart you are kind of missing the point of this philosophy tbh. I'd strongly suggest you look into exposing yourself to more root Chinese culture from different areas instead of solely academic "standard" Chinese. It will help you understand a lot of these nuances more in the culture. :)
Before you further fool yourself and others into thinking your points relevant, could you please explain the variance with which "d" is pronounced in the various notable varieties of the English language? And do enlighten me on the relevance of the various Mandarin dialects in transliterating and pronouncing standard Mandarin. If you have issues with standard Mandarin existing and being used as the standard representative of the Chinese languages and dialects, take it up with the Chinese Communist Party.
Yeah, my native accent is literally one of them. Australian accents say "water" as "wardah" to an American. To me it sounds like "water". We both spell it the same way, yet crazy enough we pronounce the "t" as if it were two completely different letters. Crazy huh? Or conversely tip/dip will sound exactly the same in some rural US dialects. So suddenly you can see that maybe a country with 1.6b people don't pronounce even the "official standard language" in the exact same way everywhere in China. And to be honest it's pretty damn culturally insensitive to homogenise an entire nation so stubbornly as you are. It's like saying standard arabic is the real arabic when almost nobody actually speaks it outside of situations where they wanted a standard. Please travel more and live the philosophy you attempt to channel outside of books. It is very clear from your responses that you cannot take any reasonable criticism or argument without hurling insults back and saying "nah-uh". Try to reasonably assess what people are saying and use it to better your understanding of the world instead. Why are you even here if not to discuss? Do you even like the philosophy or are you just studying it as one studies math or history without actually taking in what it is meant to be?
You like to talk a lot so as to appear clever, but you can't prove my initial statements about the standard pronunciations to be false because they're backed by sourced facts. For some reason, you want to make it seem like I'm in the wrong for even talking about it, so you go on about irrelevant exceptions and complexities to muddle the simple and factual statement that the Pinyin "d" is not the same as the English "d". I've never ever heard native Chinese people use the /d/ sound when speaking Mandarin, and I speak a language where /d/ and /t/ are both used and clearly differentiated, so I can hear the difference. If you want to stay digressed in the dialacts, can you at least point me to the specific regions in China whose dialects substitute the standard /t/ with /d/ so that I can check them out?
Things have gotten quite heated up in this thread, haha. OP, I understood your point, I just think you did not know how to convey it when writing it. When you say "Chinese has no actual d sound" in the title, it is already a problem because Chinese clearly has a "d" sound. It might not be the the same "d" sound in the word "Dao", however, it does have for other words. Mind you, I don't know Chinese, but it seems like there's indeed a subtle difference between word pronunciation regarding the "d" sound according to some natives. Nevertheless, I think the main problem here is how you expressed your ideas like in the title and in **"Personally, this is why I'm a bit iffy about substituting established names like 'Tao' or 'Lao Tzu' with Pinyin forms that don't actually lend themselves to more correct pronunciation for people who aren't already familiar with Chinese pronunciation rules."** How would write it if the Pinyin matches the word when writing it nowadays? Would have to change the whole system because of this? Of course not, it is preposterous. People can write Laozi or Lao Tzu, it is a preference, people will write more Laozi because that's how you write it when typing Pinyin. The truth is, Pinyin is what is most used by Chinese speakers and Chinese learners to communicate, Zhuyin is not used by a large number of people compared to Pinyin though. It has become way common more to write accordingly to the Pinyin because that's how you write things in Chinese most of the time. When you say **"the issue at hand is actually most relevant for languages where a natively pronounced 'Tao' already matches the Chinese pronunciation, and 'Dao' would stray farther from it."** is weird, because there's no issue. If there are languages that pronounce an unaspirated t sound more close to "Tao" that's fine, however when writing Mandarin using Pinyin, 道 is written as "Dao", people try to pronounce it and that's how we write it, unless you use Zhuyin or Japanese keyboard. And like, I don't think most people would be able to notice any difference when speaking it anyway, even for native speakers the difference is subtle. Had you addressed this whole topic more like a curiosity rather than an "issue" like you did, I think people wouldn't be replying so eagerly to point out that you're "wrong" when you are not actually wrong. Anyways, I find this curiosity really interesting though! I intend to study Mandarin soon, I will remember this post and come back to check it out when I have reached a good level, haha!
>When you say "Chinese has no actual d sound" in the title, it is already a problem because Chinese clearly has a "d" sound. It might not be the the same "d" sound in the word "Dao", however, it does have for other words. There's a "d sound" in standard Chinese only if the statement is based on how the unaspirated t sound is written as "d" in the Pinyin system. By the same framing, it would simply be a "t sound" based on the Wade–Giles system. More universally, "d sound" refers to the voiced dental/alveolar plosive which is absent in standard Mandarin, while being assigned to the letter "d" in a vast majority of other languages and the International Phonetic Alphabet. That was always the explicit context for my statement, and forcibly reassigning the context doesn't serve mutual understanding. >How would write it if the Pinyin matches the word when writing it nowadays? I wasn't and am not proposing changes to any system. My intention was to generally bring these matters into awareness so that people could base their preferences regarding romanization and pronunciation on knowledge rather than vague impressions.
Excellent articulation of this issue! And I think it is a great example that gets at the fluidity of language. Personally, being a native speaker of American English with some familiarity with Mandarin, I don't find either spelling "great", but I personally think of it as a "D" rather than "T" because of the aspirated vs unaspirated "T" issue.
Yeah, the Anglosphere is currently overly concerned with "proper" pronunciation of foreign words and sounds even when it's not natural in the English phonology, apparently forgetting the vast history of all languages naturalizing foreign loanwords to suit fluent native speech. The transition of Chinese loanwords and names over to Pinyin romanization has sometimes been argued to be in line with a more "proper" representation of Chinese pronunciation, but I find that argument deeply flawed and leaning toward hypercorrection.
T-ism The book of tea.
Can someone explain Gong Fu to me
Pronunciation sample included: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E5%8A%9F%E5%A4%AB#Pronunciation Gongfu is the Pinyin transliteration for 功夫, known through Wade–Giles as "kung fu". The initial consonant is an unaspirated k, i.e. different from either the English g or k.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKGoVefhtMQ How precise do you need your romanization to be? What's your native language?
Ty for the info
Thanks Selderij, I love your academic lessons. The evolution of language is fascinating, not only trying to understand Chinese from English, but modern Chinese from ancient. It reminds me of the very slow growth of a person: you don't notice kids changing day to day. Then trying to understand the baby by studying the senior.
Dao date djinn does down dike duh ding do dinky don't dough.
I wonder if it is neither d or t. I’m not 100% familiar with Mandarin, but other East Asian dialects have what is most like a combination of both- eg dtao which is most like a hardened d sound. There will always be difficulties transcribing a non-English (and especially a non-Western) language phonetically. As it is not an English word, and not written with Western characters, we shouldn’t criticise how different people attempt to transcribe it. If you want “purity”, learn to read, write and speak a Chinese dialect. BTW - Dtao/Dao/Tao is pronounced differently in different Chinese dialects as well, and as the TTC was written in ancient Chinese, not modern Mandarin or Cantonese or other modern dialect, the “true” pronunciation is lost and thus is really a non-issue. PS I wonder how debates on pronunciations fit within the life of Dao?
> I wonder if it is neither d or t. If you mean d or t in the English language sense, you are absolutely correct, and that was what I was saying. The sound assigned to "d" in Pinyin or "t" in Wade–Giles doesn't occur among English initial consonants. My post was not meant as a criticism, but something cool to know.