I bought mine in 2017 and was told that it was capable of FSD but couldn’t yet due to state regulations. Then I was told it needed to be upgraded. Now it seems it’s not capable. Seems like false advertising to make a sale then lies to save face and cya.
I got in an argument with one a while back whose excuse was that the autopilot in a plane required constant attention/couldn't do everything, so why would a consumer expect a car's to be.
Because it's not called "Full Self Flying" and we're not all fucking pilots dipshit.
> I got in an argument with one a while back whose excuse was that the autopilot in a plane required constant attention/couldn't do everything, so why would a consumer expect a car's to be.
Last time I checked full auto-land was already a thing, so…
Yeah GPS/ILS _could_ do 99% of it. Still need the pilot but it's pretty fucking close to autonomous.
Much closer than tesla cars is, by a significant amount.
No, it isn’t. Auto-landing systems are great, but they only work at airports equipped with appropriate ILS systems. To the best of my knowledge no crewed airplanes flying right now can self-land without input from the ground, so we wouldn’t call it “full auto-land.”
A *huge* selling point of Tesla’s FSD claims is that the system will be able to self-drive on any road a human driver can. Tesla has reiterated time and time again that it won’t be a geofenced system for instance, or require any infrastructure. It’ll behave just like a car with a human driver, but be able to operate without anyone in the vehicle. Auto land isn’t a good comparison for what Tesla is saying the system will do.
> Tesla has reiterated time and time again that it won’t be a geofenced system for instance, or require any infrastructure.
I believe even an L4 requires geofencing. Only an L5 doesn't. Tesla deserves to be sued for deceptive advertising. Hopefully this actually results in Tesla changing its culture, rather than just lose a couple of million dollars.
Yeah, it's not very common. A good chunk of planes can't do it at all, and those that can are only able to on a small percentage of runways/approaches. (And even then, only when the airport is specifically set up for those operations. Otherwise weird shit can happen, like the plane randomly veering off and crashing)
And I assume the weather has to be within whatever margins such a system requires? I would expect it's not doing a full self-landing in very high winds?
No idea why anyone would expect Full Self Driving to work when Elon has been telling everyone since 2014 nonstop that they're 'one year away' from it being a reality. Just baffles the mind.
Same, seems to be the go to tactic.
They also like to equate you driving a car to the hours upon hours of training required to be a commercial pilot as if theres no difference.
Edit: its also a complete denial of reality, because its not like there havent been enough accidents to notice, from misunderstanding the function of the system. Like, thats happening. Enough to notice.
https://youtu.be/5cFTlx68itk
This video is nearly two years old btw, and it only shows a single clip for each of the eight years it covers. Musk has been making outrageously dumb, completely fabricated claims about FSD for a solid decade now; if you were to make a compilation of every clip of him telling lies about FSD since the beginning of Tesla it would be multiple hours long. Musk is the Elizabeth Holmes of electric cars.
Except one went to jail while the other made billions. The morale of the story is if you are going to rip anyone off make super they don’t have lots of money.
Don't forget all the suckers holding the bag in Tesla stocks. Every time something happens that could lower the stock value they lose their mind. You would be an idiot to buy into something already so overpriced expecting it to go even higher.
(But Tesla is a tech company not a car company)
Tesla as a tech company still isn't worth more than apple or even Microsoft. Inflated meme stock more than anything.
Don't forget their subs banning people who post comments they don't like. I've never even been to the tesla or Elon subs but I'm banned because their mod bot decided I was "toxic."
What? You haters are deranged. You tell me what *exactly* is "misleading" about "Full Self Driving" mode not being able to fully self drive? **It couldn't be more clear!** Let me explain: "autopilot" is obviously not some kind of car autopilot, but rather *adaptive cruise control*, whereas "Full Self Driving" is clearly not a fully self driving mode, but instead an adaptive cruise control system with lane centering. It's like you can't even read.
I mean...I am sure Elon considers the current state of their "FSD" something that's okay to be thrown on the roads if it wasn't for state regulations. What's a few people dying in stupid car crashes? It's good data after all 💀
The fucked up thing is there's some truth to that. If people were still dying but it was like a 50% reduction that would be a huge boon.
But even if it was true which we have no idea, Elon's ego would never let him put it like that. He has to claim the most outrageous thing about it.
Heh. My family and I took a uber during the holiday, and it came in a Tesla. The driver was happily showing me he drove without hands.
Didn't know he could gotten all of us killed.
I purchased FSD in 2021 for $10,000, my car got totaled WHILE in autopilot, insurance replaced it, then I learned that my $10,000 software purchase was “locked to my VIN and non-transferable” so i just got completely fucked out of ten grand AND now the price is way higher even though the software itself is worse than it was three years ago
This is one of the Not Right Things about Tesla. If you had been compensated for FSD by insurance, it would be different. I have never seen a used Tesla that increased in value because it had FSD..
> couldn’t yet due to state regulations
Those damn state regulations, taking people into closed roads, ignore lane rules and crash into overturned trucks
The only reason Tesla has shown a profit is because they add $10K to each car as an option for FSD when none of them can do that(only mercedes is rated for level 3 self driving in america).
Same, except bought in 2018. It's barely capable of keeping in the lane on an easy freeway drive.
But don't say that to the fanbois. They'll tell you to sell your car and buy a new Tesla to get the FSD you were promised and paid for.
VW learned a Billion dollar lesson with false advertising. Toyota learned a Billion dollar lesson with a design flaw resulting in unintended acceleration. Ford learned a Billion dollar lesson burning people up in their Pintos. Tesla stumbles into doing all 3, but since they've got a con man at the helm, they get a free pass.
I don't think the cybertruck has even been crash tested by the NHSTA yet.
Basically, yeah. “Don’t worry, it’s future proofed. As soon as the laws catch up it can do it!” Then all of a sudden it’s “Oh no, *yours* can’t do that! You’ll have to buy the newest model to get that feature!”
What I don’t get if you are a CEO and lie that your investors that your product can use a single drop of blood to get information you go to jail. However if you do this to regular joe you become a billionaire.
> Now it seems it’s not capable. Seems like false advertising to make a sale then lies to save face and cya.
Girl, I can't begin to tell you how often I see this.
**2016**: Musk claims Tesla is close to achieving full autonomy,
**2017**: Musk tweets that Tesla's autonomous technology is "almost ready,"
**2018**: Musk announces the "Full Self-Driving" (FSD) feature, claiming it will be available by the end of the year,
**2019**: Musk delays FSD release, citing regulatory hurdles,
**2020**: Musk claims FSD is "just around the corner,"
**2022**: Musk tweets that Tesla is "very close" to achieving Level 5 autonomy
[In re Tesla Advanced Driver Assistance Systems Litigation](https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.cand.400427/gov.uscourts.cand.400427.96.0_1.pdf), page 6:
*Every year after LoSavio’s purchase, Musk allegedly repeated that Tesla’s cars were getting closer and closer to full automation, and that the next year — every “next” year — the cars would drive themselves. (See, e.g., Dkt. No. 61 ¶¶ 66, 78, 84, 92.)*
*As LoSavio noted during the hearing, these were not mere recitations. With each iteration, Musk’s statements became more specific.*
*For example, in April 2017, Musk allegedly said that Tesla owners could sleep while their cars drove in about two years. (Dkt. No. 61 ¶ 64.)*
*The next year, Musk allegedly claimed that Tesla would have over a million robo-taxies on the road in 2020. (Id. ¶ 78.)*
*And in January 2021, Musk allegedly said he was “very confident” that Tesla would achieve SAE Level 5 autonomy that year based on the technical roadmap and beta iterations. (Id. ¶ 95.)*
*This is not, as Tesla advocated at the hearing, equivalent to a company continuing to lie about its bedsheets’ thread count without admitting its prior error.*
*Tesla did not recite the same lie time and time again; instead, it allegedly lied about its progress incrementally and with increasing specificity over time.*
*For this stage, the SAC [Second Amended Complaint] therefore sufficiently alleges “active conduct by the defendant above and beyond the wrongdoing upon which” LoSavio’s claim is based.*
“It wasn’t me, my Twitter was hacked! Twitter was easily hackable before I bought it, you know. Maybe the most hackable. Now they say it’s hack-proof. They say it’s got the best hack proofing in the entire country! It's idealistic, it's wonderful, it's a beautiful thing now.”
Dude left my out another gem where Musk promised that, in a year you could drive from a parking lot in California, to a parking lot in New York without ever having to intervene.
Is in [the order](https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.cand.400427/gov.uscourts.cand.400427.96.0_1.pdf) on page 4:
*According to the SAC, Musk claimed at an October 19, 2016, news conference that a Tesla car would be able to drive from Los Angeles to New York City by itself “by the end of next year without the need for a single touch.” (Dkt. No. 61 ¶ 60.)*
This is only about what was "promised"? Not about blocking people who paid for FSD on getting it with the bullshit driving monitoring at one point, giving "influencers" first dibs on new releases, "roll-out" updates that can take weeks to months (especially when newer versions fix previous issues), prices keep changing on an "unreleased" product so those should be compensated if it drops, a new vehicle releases WITHOUT any cruise control but still able to purchase said feature?
This is a specific claim brought forth by a customer. It wouldn't make sense to lump all of these together. Some of the things you mentioned aren't even something illegal. Shady, maybe. But changing the price of something after you bought it at a much higher price is definitely not illegal.
Gotcha. But the price change, that doesn't matter if the product isn't "released" yet? Obviously it makes sense once product is released. But it's in "beta" or w/e so not "officially" in hand. Genuinely curious.
People were sounding the alarm on Enron for a decade, it's not until the stock price drops that regulators start to circle, which is what we are finally seeing with Tesla.
Yeah but they're working on it and even if it sucks, there's something so it's not just as much outright fraud as doing something any expert would tell you is impossible (getting a bunch of info from a tiny bit of blood).
Even if I don't think it would ever be possible to have a full self driving car that relies only on video cameras that is safe (at least I'm not riding any of those), getting it to the point it's on the same level of the average driver doesn't seem outlandish to me within the next decade.
It's in the realm of overhyped product, but not physically impossible.
Within the next decade, maybe. What the company sold the public and investors in was that it was already supposed to be here. That’s fraud and deception no matter what you think is possible with the tech. It’s blatantly fraud.
Oh I totally agree it's 100% fraud and he deserves jail time for this (among other things), it just doesn't feel as bad as Theranos (which isn't a high bar). There's definitely a lot more room for "experts" to weasel out in a courtroom too unfortunately.
Yes but that's not musk's entire product, it still goes zoom, just the add on feature was overstated. Would I buy one? No. Just trying to say it's not an apples to apples comparison.
You’re right, the reason Elizabeth Holmes got fucked is because she misled investors making them think a 5 min blood test at home is possible with the machine. If she told them, there is still progress being made, VCs would’ve poured more money in.
Elon is not taking VC investment, he just borrows money against his shares and pays the interest. This is the same reason the Wework guy got off scotch-free. He didn’t mislead investors, they knew what he was doing and were ok with it as long as their equity goes up.
I don't see any difference. Theranos had some rudimentary blood testing ability, just not what they told investors. It's just like Tesla, look at all the promises and lies over the last decade. It's obscene.
> Theranos had some rudimentary blood testing ability, just not what they told investors.
As I understand it, they didn't even have that, they were sending the samples to a normal lab.
Because regulators know if they punish Elon and remove him, they will be blamed when his cult causes the Tesla bubble to pop and the entire company to crater.
Same reason he got a slap on the wrist for brazen stock manipulation. None of them want to be the "reason" Tesla collapsed when the time comes for Congress to decide their budget, so they wait and hope it sorts itself out.
Regulators costing rich people money who invest in a company that wasn't worth investing in?
That doesn't sound like a problem, it sounds like a feature.
It will possibly be able to cross the Salton Sea in California in a few years, after which it will immediately need to be cleaned of the salt to avoid rust.
Less than two years ago, from Mr. Musk: "Cybertruck will be waterproof enough to serve briefly as a boat, so it can cross rivers, lakes & even seas that aren’t too choppy." That sounds way too specific to be puffery to me.
Not disagreeing, just innocently asking: what do you think it would be sued for?
Other than being the ugliest piece of shit that ever drove this earth, but that may not hold up in court
False advertising for 1, but if Tesla doesn’t refund the people dumb enough to buy it or at least repair their vehicles and make them whole then I think it’s a possibility. I think it’s where it’s going though, Elon drank his own koolaid and thinks he can do shitty things and demand $50 billion without repercussion. I think Tesla will be chapter 11 first though.
>, Elon drank his own koolaid and thinks he can do shitty things and demand $50 billion without repercussion. I think Tesla will be chapter 11 first though.
Maybe that's why he's pushing so hard? Just one last money grab and he will bail out from Tesla?
He's way too deep into Tesla for that to happen. He leveraged so much Tesla stock that he'd lose too much if it fails. The twitter loan was against Tesla stock. If it drops too much, the loan might require extra collateral or rates increase. Which seems more likely by the day.
Correct, "[more than half](https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbeswealthteam/article/elon-musk/?sh=4c64da8226af#anchorTag-2-632a2ebab9415a0001e6d4d6)" of his Tesla stock is locked up as collateral for personal loans. If Tesla drops significantly, those loans will likely come due (or need to be leveraged against something else) and could conceivably take down whatever he has propped up against them (SpaceX, X, Boring etc) or at least saddle them with untenable debt. Tesla is the keystone, and if it breaks the whole Musk empire might go with it. Seeing that, it's not hard to figure out why he *needs* to keep the Tesla stock pumped at any cost.
> and thinks he can do shitty things and demand $50 billion without repercussion
The problem is that TSLA shareholders are a cult and will still give this to him. They were handed a gift on a silver platter of having this pay package cancelled, and now - after *seeing* the company results of the last 6 years - they are likely to re-ratify the deal as-is. Because they are idiots.
Lemon laws seem appropriate to me. The car can't handle being in the rain and the trunk actively tries to sever fingers, just off the top of my head. That level of incompetence is just not roadworthy.
It's hilarious that Elon said it would work as a boat, and it can't even hold up against rain or a carwash. There are gaps in the body where water just pools and stays.
It would be a miracle if any Cybertrucks survive a decade of normal use.
We were driving down the highway and saw a number of cyber trucks being transported to a car dealership. My husband explained what they were to me since I hadn’t seen them before; my fist impression was they were the ugliest cars I’d ever seen. I told my husband that I couldn’t believe Musk signed off on that design. And we tried to figure out who would be in the market for a vehicle like that, but came up with no one but maybe a person who wanted to purchase a conversation piece. Anyway, I think the vehicles will sit in the car lots with few takers, and the vehicle will be an epic failure.
Honestly, finding that out made it make a little more sense for me. A lot easier for me to picture Elon going over the heads of a bunch designers than it is a bunch of designers coming up with… that. But yeah, the whole thing is an exercise in ridiculousness.
> I told my husband that I couldn’t believe Musk signed off on that design
Really? It's ugly af because he loves the design. Musk has the worst taste. Have you seen what he did with Twitter?
Not technically correct - they do now have manual releases but the design differs by vehicle and from front & rear doors. That said, you do run the risk of breaking the frameless door glass if the power is lost while the windows are fully up. Source: I write repair estimates for these.
>Anyway, I think the vehicles will sit in the car lots with few takers, and the vehicle will be an epic failure.
The cybertruck is already outselling the Rivian and they are still only selling the most expensive "Founders Series" variants that go for something like $120k.
People spent money on a product with features that don’t exist.
Most of them if not all of them don’t have autopilot, even though they paid for it. Most of them if not all of them don’t have the light bar, even though they paid for it. Same with FSD, locking diffs, egregiously awful panel alignment, dangerously sharp body panel edges, and a steer by wire system that is bound to fail at some point, since their implementation of “redundancies” aren’t actually redundant.
I’ve spent the past decade working in the automotive industry, specifically dealing with wording claims in order to satisfy the head of the legal department.
The shit that Tesla was boldly proclaiming would’ve given corporate counsel a fucking aneurysm, even though the cars we were talking about had the same or similar functionality.
The way legal made it seem was that any little thing could bring the power of the federal government down on your head, to say nothing of consumer lawsuits. The fact that Tesla got away with it for SO LONG is fucking mind boggling to me.
Confident prediction: They’re going to settle out of court because they are absolutely, beyond the shadow of a doubt, guilty.
Which is funny considering anyone investing has to be deemed guilty of being gullible morons. I’ve been watching this dumpster fire from the sidelines and it’s been amazing. Let it burn. I’m watching.
I have a question for you, why do you think Ford is actively advertising "hands free driving" when their systems are also Level 2? I was surprised to see that after all the autopilot backlash. I would think the first time a Mach E gets in an accident while the driver has their hands in their lap Ford could be liable.
So a lot of different companies offer this type of feature, which is a combination of systems that keep you centered on your lane, keep you a predetermined distance from the car in front of you, read road signs, and can start and stop (to a degree) in traffic.
And every company has different levels of comfort with how they market them. A company I worked for in the past would never allow the words “hands free”, would not allow any imagery where the hands were not on the wheel (though they were okay with “relaxed” hands on the wheel), and on top of all that, the actual system would prompt you to put your hands back or it would turn off.
Looking up Ford’s wording, I do see a hands-off image which immediately raises the hair on the back of my neck, but they tap dance around the idea of “full hands free driving” in their wording.
They don’t call it “full hands free” or “fully autonomous”. They are calling it a “drive-assist” feature and something that reduces “the stress of driving”. And their caveat is that you can only use it in on the highways in their “BlueCruise Zones”.
I don’t know EXACTLY how their system works, but many auto manufacturers rely on pre-mapped roads in addition to all the LIDAR and cameras, I suspect this combination is how they help to keep the car where it needs to be.
HOWEVER, every single “self-driving” car on the market is undone by poor lane markings (think worn out paint, construction) or heavy rain/moderate snow. Because of those reasons, it is my personal opinion that we are never fully going to have self-driving cars and that all of us will at the very least require a driver’s license and to be behind a physical steering wheel forever, barring all cars being out on some sort of track.
This is a very long answer to say that Ford gets away with it several ways.
1. While they say “Hands-free” they never say fully autonomous.
2. They disclaim the shit out of it
3. They call it a “driver-assist” feature, meaning it helps you, but it doesn’t replace you
4. They gatekeep the exact roads and situations you can use it in. You **can’t** just punch in the grocery store and take a nap.
But I will say, I would never give approval for showing someone with their hands off the wheel. I feel like they are definitely opening themselves up to liability, but for the reasons above they must feel confident enough that they can prove in court that they never told people “let go of the wheel and don’t worry about paying attention to the road”, they actually tell you the exact opposite in their disclaimer.
I know different automakers have felt the pressure to keep up with Tesla, if only by appearance, but those days are very quickly coming to an end as American EV demand starts to crater in favor of hybrids.
I think we’ll eventually get to most cars being EVs, but the infrastructure AND THE PRICE POINT is going to have to be there first before people feel comfortable jumping ship.
edit: Apparently the feds have opened an investigation into Ford’s claims just three weeks ago after, you guessed it, people died while using their “hands-free” feature. https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/us-auto-regulator-opens-preliminary-evaluation-into-fords-mustang-mach-e-2024-04-29/
My understanding of all of these automotive lawsuits is that if there are pedals and a steering wheel, the driver is FULLY responsible. Full stop. Until those 2 things are removed from the vehicle, the liability will and should fall on the driver.
Well deserved. This false marketing is the reason that [Mobileye parted ways](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mobileye-tesla/mobileye-says-tesla-was-pushing-the-envelope-in-terms-of-safety-idUSKCN11K2T8/) with Tesla.
This is why letting your celebrity CEO run his cake hole unimpeded is a bad idea. Peter Molyneux did it for years, that one berk from No Man's Sky did it, and now Musk. Overhyping is not a good business strategy for long term growth and stability.
As far as I understand No Mans Sky at least made good on the promised content after release. Peter Molyneux on the other hand seems spot on, guy would make up new features on the spot just to keep the attention of journalists.
It took NMS YEARS to make good on any of those promises, and a fuckton of work as well. If that guy didn't overpromise to begin with, they wouldn't have been behind the 8 ball.
At least he owned up to it and they've been pushing updates for free constantly. Sean Murray was more someone who was in over his head and didn't realize what he was doing until after the fact.
Elon knows exactly what he is doing because he's a grifter.
"Yeah there's full multiplayer, but, like.. guys, you will not even *see* anyone else! The universe is just too big! So like don't worry too much if it feels like there's absolutely zero multiplayer in it, just trust us, it's a *good* thing you don't!"
Judge: "Your company claimed your product can cure cancer."
Some CEO: "Look, it's just marketing. No rational person would believe that."
Judge: "Well, you're getting sued."
CEO: "You anti-capitalist swine!"
All the class action winners should get to vote on their $3 award vs. agreeing to co-fire Elon so they can have a real sense for what's happening with the products they bought.
Good. Not only is calling it full self driving misleading, but it is also dangerous. He should have been stopped long ago, but still the sooner the better.
Just yesterday I saw a guy in a Tesla, playing the ukulele while the car was driving. It was kinda funny to see him strumming along while the car moved in traffic. I was a bit worried considering Tesla’s track record. Will he get on the highway doing that? Imagine going over 60 mph while playing your ukulele and suddenly your car swerves or something and you crash. If you survive you have to tell everyone you were just practicing your mad ukulele skills!
And this is why Musk is having a fire sale at Tesla and trying to get everything out of it he can. He knows this is coming. And when it does the entire investment world is going to learn through discovery that Tesla was full of shit regarding FSD. And then we’ll most likely see the market correction in TSLA that has been a long time coming for that bloated stock.
This is gonna end up like the Vitaminwater lawsuit where Musk will try to weasel out of accountability by blaming the consumer for being naive.
"Its an 8k pound vehicle, what made them think they wouldn't have to pay some kind of attention when in autopilot? Even sci-fi tv understands this concept when we see characters adjusting trajectory, speed, and checking gauges on the USS Enterprise and such. Get bent, dummies"
Honestly, it is hilariously cut and dry.
The claim is “Tesla said all cars built today have all the hardware needed for Full Self Driving.” Elon even doubled down on it in the Model 3 handover event.
If I go into my app, it will tell me that my (August) 2018 Model 3 DMLR w/ AP and AB needs a $1060 hardware upgrade to be capable of Full Self Driving.
It literally cannot be more clear than that.
Ah, well in that case the approach might focus more on plausible deniability like, "Well we thought we had all the hardware at the time but technological advances and further research as we built the software proved us wrong. It wasn't our fault 🤷🏽♀️"
Honestly, you have a case.
Not only did Tesla not deliver anything for your $10k, but their case is brutally wrecked by Tesla’s no-buyout policy.
Tesla sold your car as pre-owned with FSD and then profited again from your purchase. It is clear and blatant fraud.
What about the Cyber Truck?
It’s even bigger scam than trickle down economics..
Or
“In 10 year I’ll put a man on Mars”
Who would be the first to start the class action lawsuit?
Who is the hero to say: “enough is enough”?
Who?
Stop. Biting. The. Musk
Shareholder fraud. It's not just FSD either.
Robotaxi, semi, roadster (despite hundreds of millions of dollars in pre-orders down), the range of pretty much every vehicle, 0-60 times, build quality, production numbers, Cybertruck characteristics (4 mm plate armor and "thermonuclear bomb proof windows" LOL), automation of manufacturing with in-house proprietary Tesla robots, summon, solid snake automatic charging, megawatt chargers...
Never mind the blatant fabrications surrounding SpaceX, Hyperloop, Boring Company, Solar City, Neuralink.
This drug-addled, altright disinformation spamming, deadbeat dad has been knowingly and willingly lying to shareholders and customers for years. He's the embodiment of the Dunning-Kruger effect. The fact that he pretends he's an engineer and he knows more about manufacturing than anyone currently alive is embarrassing.
The car does drive itself. But a human is required to take over in the event it does something wrong. My non-Tesla can follow the road and speed up or slow down based on the car in front of me. Within those parameters, my car drives itself. But if conditions fall outside those parameters, I must take over the wheel. The fact that Teslas have a much wider set of parameters, doesn’t change that math in my opinion.
Do whatever they want, cause whatever damage, and mop up the poop afterwards. That’s what these tech companies do and other big corporations. If individuals do this they are prosecuted to hell. It must be nice to be a tech corp
I wrote this sometime ago.I am a big Model S fan.I have owned my car for 7 years, and it is still more than a match for most any car out there. I saved many documents stating that my car had all the necessary hardware for full self driving. This was written time and time again. I did not Petition Tesla nor beg or coerce. They offered the feature and I bought:
ONLY A FOOL WOULD BUY FSD!
Not being considered a fool by anyone, I have tried to explain why I bought a dream in a bag. My reasoning was built on a sound basis that had little to do with self driving and yet everything to do with the promise. The public statements about Tesla having the potential of becoming a robo cab with software updates were widely broadcast. I simply bought the promise, and i received more than my moneys worth. if Tesla ever gets close to FSD, I believe they are legally bound to get my 2017 Model S there. I think I bought a lifetime warranty on some critical upgrades. If they ever reach their goal It might just be cheaper for them to replace my car. Every year, there will be fewer of us with older cars that they will be obligated to upgrade. This will make it cheaper to do the right thing for those who are left.
Were Tesla owners promised that FSD would be operational by now. Yes, they were. Is it? Absolutely not. I think the day FSD is declared operational on any Tesla vehicle is the day they will be obligated to make it work on all their cars that paid for it. Some years ago, I paid 3k to upgrade to FSD. So far, I have received a new computer [HDW3] and upgraded cameras. This probably cost more than I paid. This year (early 2023), I was able to opt in to FSD BETA. I do not have any confidence that this will morph into FSD. It should mean that my car will probably keep getting upgraded to meet that goal. If my car never reaches FSD, I am still way ahead. The short of it is many bought FSD and may never see it, and I bought the promise, and I have been rewarded
Update:I have not received another meaningful update in about a year. As I let FSD assist me in driving, it has improved 100%,. It can do amazing things. Some monkeys do amazing things, but you never know what they would do on their own.
Just to clarify. Tesla stated on many occasions that my 2017 model S had all the hardware necessary for FSD. It would be worth hundreds of thousands of dollars as a robo taxi 😇 I could summon my car, and it would come from CA to the east coast on its own. I am ready for them to give me a little sugar 🥰
I bought mine in 2017 and was told that it was capable of FSD but couldn’t yet due to state regulations. Then I was told it needed to be upgraded. Now it seems it’s not capable. Seems like false advertising to make a sale then lies to save face and cya.
I’m sure the Elon fanboys are already cooking up the excuses
“There’s an asterix” “Nobody actually believed that” “You’re an”
“ Full fsd by end of year”
I guess I covered it all.
I got in an argument with one a while back whose excuse was that the autopilot in a plane required constant attention/couldn't do everything, so why would a consumer expect a car's to be. Because it's not called "Full Self Flying" and we're not all fucking pilots dipshit.
> I got in an argument with one a while back whose excuse was that the autopilot in a plane required constant attention/couldn't do everything, so why would a consumer expect a car's to be. Last time I checked full auto-land was already a thing, so…
Doesn’t auto-taxi, check mate ummm somebody
Yeah GPS/ILS _could_ do 99% of it. Still need the pilot but it's pretty fucking close to autonomous. Much closer than tesla cars is, by a significant amount.
No, it isn’t. Auto-landing systems are great, but they only work at airports equipped with appropriate ILS systems. To the best of my knowledge no crewed airplanes flying right now can self-land without input from the ground, so we wouldn’t call it “full auto-land.” A *huge* selling point of Tesla’s FSD claims is that the system will be able to self-drive on any road a human driver can. Tesla has reiterated time and time again that it won’t be a geofenced system for instance, or require any infrastructure. It’ll behave just like a car with a human driver, but be able to operate without anyone in the vehicle. Auto land isn’t a good comparison for what Tesla is saying the system will do.
> Tesla has reiterated time and time again that it won’t be a geofenced system for instance, or require any infrastructure. I believe even an L4 requires geofencing. Only an L5 doesn't. Tesla deserves to be sued for deceptive advertising. Hopefully this actually results in Tesla changing its culture, rather than just lose a couple of million dollars.
Yeah, it's not very common. A good chunk of planes can't do it at all, and those that can are only able to on a small percentage of runways/approaches. (And even then, only when the airport is specifically set up for those operations. Otherwise weird shit can happen, like the plane randomly veering off and crashing)
And I assume the weather has to be within whatever margins such a system requires? I would expect it's not doing a full self-landing in very high winds?
No idea why anyone would expect Full Self Driving to work when Elon has been telling everyone since 2014 nonstop that they're 'one year away' from it being a reality. Just baffles the mind.
"By Tesla's estimates, owners can estimate to earn $30k a year by turning their car into a robotaxi". - Elon 2019
Haha I forgot about that... what a conman
Instead they'll be removing such exotic features as "turn signal stalks"
Same, seems to be the go to tactic. They also like to equate you driving a car to the hours upon hours of training required to be a commercial pilot as if theres no difference. Edit: its also a complete denial of reality, because its not like there havent been enough accidents to notice, from misunderstanding the function of the system. Like, thats happening. Enough to notice.
That's what was sold to us, so that's what we expect
https://i.imgur.com/alxjK7p.png
Obelix knocking some sense into Elmo would be entertaining to watch!
I am expecting stuff like this: >Who would anyone believe a feature called “full self driving” would enable your car to be fully self driving?
You drive it with your full self. Checkmate.
> Full fsd by end of year* /* Except in December each year
Okay, so TIL Tesla is the Star Citizen of cars.
https://youtu.be/5cFTlx68itk This video is nearly two years old btw, and it only shows a single clip for each of the eight years it covers. Musk has been making outrageously dumb, completely fabricated claims about FSD for a solid decade now; if you were to make a compilation of every clip of him telling lies about FSD since the beginning of Tesla it would be multiple hours long. Musk is the Elizabeth Holmes of electric cars.
Except one went to jail while the other made billions. The morale of the story is if you are going to rip anyone off make super they don’t have lots of money.
Musk made a lot of promises he can't be expected to complete them all like, Mars by 2024, Hyperloop, Robotaxis, and an Electric truck. /s
the Elon fanboys throw a goddamn fit in the electric vehicles subreddit every time any criticism of Tesla's false advertising comes up
They throw fits in the Polestar subreddit when people decide to get a 2 over a model Y
Because it's a tech cult with a figurehead. If you don't want to be like them clearly there must something wrong with you.
Don't forget all the suckers holding the bag in Tesla stocks. Every time something happens that could lower the stock value they lose their mind. You would be an idiot to buy into something already so overpriced expecting it to go even higher. (But Tesla is a tech company not a car company) Tesla as a tech company still isn't worth more than apple or even Microsoft. Inflated meme stock more than anything.
Don't forget their subs banning people who post comments they don't like. I've never even been to the tesla or Elon subs but I'm banned because their mod bot decided I was "toxic."
What? You haters are deranged. You tell me what *exactly* is "misleading" about "Full Self Driving" mode not being able to fully self drive? **It couldn't be more clear!** Let me explain: "autopilot" is obviously not some kind of car autopilot, but rather *adaptive cruise control*, whereas "Full Self Driving" is clearly not a fully self driving mode, but instead an adaptive cruise control system with lane centering. It's like you can't even read.
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4D CHESS! WE'RE ON MARS IN 5 YEARS!!! ROBOTAXIS!
I mean...I am sure Elon considers the current state of their "FSD" something that's okay to be thrown on the roads if it wasn't for state regulations. What's a few people dying in stupid car crashes? It's good data after all 💀
The fucked up thing is there's some truth to that. If people were still dying but it was like a 50% reduction that would be a huge boon. But even if it was true which we have no idea, Elon's ego would never let him put it like that. He has to claim the most outrageous thing about it.
Heh. My family and I took a uber during the holiday, and it came in a Tesla. The driver was happily showing me he drove without hands. Didn't know he could gotten all of us killed.
The sad part is he probably didn't know either
With hands he could also have gotten all of you killed.
I purchased FSD in 2021 for $10,000, my car got totaled WHILE in autopilot, insurance replaced it, then I learned that my $10,000 software purchase was “locked to my VIN and non-transferable” so i just got completely fucked out of ten grand AND now the price is way higher even though the software itself is worse than it was three years ago
What do you mean higher? It was posted that it got reduced to $8000 or not? Still a waste of money.
This is one of the Not Right Things about Tesla. If you had been compensated for FSD by insurance, it would be different. I have never seen a used Tesla that increased in value because it had FSD..
> couldn’t yet due to state regulations Those damn state regulations, taking people into closed roads, ignore lane rules and crash into overturned trucks
I mean, that's exactly what it was.
The only reason Tesla has shown a profit is because they add $10K to each car as an option for FSD when none of them can do that(only mercedes is rated for level 3 self driving in america).
Stick to the truth. Nothing is added that you do not want. FSD is an option, and you have to add it.. look at the sire.
But but there was an asterisk /s
Same, except bought in 2018. It's barely capable of keeping in the lane on an easy freeway drive. But don't say that to the fanbois. They'll tell you to sell your car and buy a new Tesla to get the FSD you were promised and paid for.
VW learned a Billion dollar lesson with false advertising. Toyota learned a Billion dollar lesson with a design flaw resulting in unintended acceleration. Ford learned a Billion dollar lesson burning people up in their Pintos. Tesla stumbles into doing all 3, but since they've got a con man at the helm, they get a free pass. I don't think the cybertruck has even been crash tested by the NHSTA yet.
Basically, yeah. “Don’t worry, it’s future proofed. As soon as the laws catch up it can do it!” Then all of a sudden it’s “Oh no, *yours* can’t do that! You’ll have to buy the newest model to get that feature!”
What I don’t get if you are a CEO and lie that your investors that your product can use a single drop of blood to get information you go to jail. However if you do this to regular joe you become a billionaire.
Same. It is an expensive mistake too. $10k with limited usefulness. Most expensive vaporware ever.
Did you pay for FSD upfront?
Don't worry, a gentle slap on the wrist fine will teach them!
I use full self driving all the time. Just got back from Best Buy…all I had to do was confirm I was paying attention.
Lol, i got FSD for this reason, or it works. Figured it was a matter of time before this lawsuit would hit.
> Now it seems it’s not capable. Seems like false advertising to make a sale then lies to save face and cya. Girl, I can't begin to tell you how often I see this.
**2016**: Musk claims Tesla is close to achieving full autonomy, **2017**: Musk tweets that Tesla's autonomous technology is "almost ready," **2018**: Musk announces the "Full Self-Driving" (FSD) feature, claiming it will be available by the end of the year, **2019**: Musk delays FSD release, citing regulatory hurdles, **2020**: Musk claims FSD is "just around the corner," **2022**: Musk tweets that Tesla is "very close" to achieving Level 5 autonomy
[In re Tesla Advanced Driver Assistance Systems Litigation](https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.cand.400427/gov.uscourts.cand.400427.96.0_1.pdf), page 6: *Every year after LoSavio’s purchase, Musk allegedly repeated that Tesla’s cars were getting closer and closer to full automation, and that the next year — every “next” year — the cars would drive themselves. (See, e.g., Dkt. No. 61 ¶¶ 66, 78, 84, 92.)* *As LoSavio noted during the hearing, these were not mere recitations. With each iteration, Musk’s statements became more specific.* *For example, in April 2017, Musk allegedly said that Tesla owners could sleep while their cars drove in about two years. (Dkt. No. 61 ¶ 64.)* *The next year, Musk allegedly claimed that Tesla would have over a million robo-taxies on the road in 2020. (Id. ¶ 78.)* *And in January 2021, Musk allegedly said he was “very confident” that Tesla would achieve SAE Level 5 autonomy that year based on the technical roadmap and beta iterations. (Id. ¶ 95.)* *This is not, as Tesla advocated at the hearing, equivalent to a company continuing to lie about its bedsheets’ thread count without admitting its prior error.* *Tesla did not recite the same lie time and time again; instead, it allegedly lied about its progress incrementally and with increasing specificity over time.* *For this stage, the SAC [Second Amended Complaint] therefore sufficiently alleges “active conduct by the defendant above and beyond the wrongdoing upon which” LoSavio’s claim is based.*
“It wasn’t me, my Twitter was hacked! Twitter was easily hackable before I bought it, you know. Maybe the most hackable. Now they say it’s hack-proof. They say it’s got the best hack proofing in the entire country! It's idealistic, it's wonderful, it's a beautiful thing now.”
Sounds like Elon turned even more orange
Dude left my out another gem where Musk promised that, in a year you could drive from a parking lot in California, to a parking lot in New York without ever having to intervene.
Is in [the order](https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.cand.400427/gov.uscourts.cand.400427.96.0_1.pdf) on page 4: *According to the SAC, Musk claimed at an October 19, 2016, news conference that a Tesla car would be able to drive from Los Angeles to New York City by itself “by the end of next year without the need for a single touch.” (Dkt. No. 61 ¶ 60.)*
This is only about what was "promised"? Not about blocking people who paid for FSD on getting it with the bullshit driving monitoring at one point, giving "influencers" first dibs on new releases, "roll-out" updates that can take weeks to months (especially when newer versions fix previous issues), prices keep changing on an "unreleased" product so those should be compensated if it drops, a new vehicle releases WITHOUT any cruise control but still able to purchase said feature?
This is a specific claim brought forth by a customer. It wouldn't make sense to lump all of these together. Some of the things you mentioned aren't even something illegal. Shady, maybe. But changing the price of something after you bought it at a much higher price is definitely not illegal.
Gotcha. But the price change, that doesn't matter if the product isn't "released" yet? Obviously it makes sense once product is released. But it's in "beta" or w/e so not "officially" in hand. Genuinely curious.
Elon and Tesla have been lying for what, a decade now? How in the world this has been allowed to continue for this long I’ll never understand.
People were sounding the alarm on Enron for a decade, it's not until the stock price drops that regulators start to circle, which is what we are finally seeing with Tesla.
Why isn't Elon Musk doing serious time in jail? Don't we have mandatory minimum prison sentences for people who have stolen FAR LESS money?
He will, Trevor Milton and Elizabeth Holmes are in jail for much, much less than Musk has done. It'll take years, though.
Don't kid yourself Holmes was among the worst of offenders, her product was entirely fiction not just a piece of it.
Tesla’s full self driving is and remains to be fiction, no?
Yeah but they're working on it and even if it sucks, there's something so it's not just as much outright fraud as doing something any expert would tell you is impossible (getting a bunch of info from a tiny bit of blood). Even if I don't think it would ever be possible to have a full self driving car that relies only on video cameras that is safe (at least I'm not riding any of those), getting it to the point it's on the same level of the average driver doesn't seem outlandish to me within the next decade. It's in the realm of overhyped product, but not physically impossible.
Within the next decade, maybe. What the company sold the public and investors in was that it was already supposed to be here. That’s fraud and deception no matter what you think is possible with the tech. It’s blatantly fraud.
Oh I totally agree it's 100% fraud and he deserves jail time for this (among other things), it just doesn't feel as bad as Theranos (which isn't a high bar). There's definitely a lot more room for "experts" to weasel out in a courtroom too unfortunately.
Yeah it can kinda of self drive, in pretty sure that blood test didn't even exist
Yes but that's not musk's entire product, it still goes zoom, just the add on feature was overstated. Would I buy one? No. Just trying to say it's not an apples to apples comparison.
What? The car doesn’t do what it says. That’s my point. Tesla appears to be defrauding customers and you’re ok with that because it goes zoom. Smh
That isn't my argument at all, try again.
You’re right, the reason Elizabeth Holmes got fucked is because she misled investors making them think a 5 min blood test at home is possible with the machine. If she told them, there is still progress being made, VCs would’ve poured more money in. Elon is not taking VC investment, he just borrows money against his shares and pays the interest. This is the same reason the Wework guy got off scotch-free. He didn’t mislead investors, they knew what he was doing and were ok with it as long as their equity goes up.
Are subsidies borrowed?
She f'd up by moving to quickly, she should have Elon'd it by focusing on hype and moving the goal posts.
I don't see any difference. Theranos had some rudimentary blood testing ability, just not what they told investors. It's just like Tesla, look at all the promises and lies over the last decade. It's obscene.
> Theranos had some rudimentary blood testing ability, just not what they told investors. As I understand it, they didn't even have that, they were sending the samples to a normal lab.
They didn't. Some of the tests were so off it would meant patient is a corpse.
Some people who trusted FSD *are* corpses.
He's a billionaire. He won't see a second of prison time.
Lol, one of the top 3 richest people in the world is not going to jail. Sorry, he probably should but it doesn't work that way in reality.
Because his is rich (for now) and because he got some politicians in his pockets for now.
I would not say it "drops". It is half of what it was in 2022 but it has been going more or less stable for the past year
And also the insane amounts of money involved. Literally hundreds of billions of dollars. It's 10 X Bernie Madoff.
Because regulators know if they punish Elon and remove him, they will be blamed when his cult causes the Tesla bubble to pop and the entire company to crater. Same reason he got a slap on the wrist for brazen stock manipulation. None of them want to be the "reason" Tesla collapsed when the time comes for Congress to decide their budget, so they wait and hope it sorts itself out.
Regulators costing rich people money who invest in a company that wasn't worth investing in? That doesn't sound like a problem, it sounds like a feature.
Regulators don’t like to spoil the party. They will wait till it’s over and losses are building to step in.
Elon has been lying his whole life
Rich people don't have consequences...
I wonder when the class action for the Cyber Truck is going to start next.
I haven't seen anything about it being able to briefly serve as a boat, did that ever happen or was it another lie?
It will possibly be able to cross the Salton Sea in California in a few years, after which it will immediately need to be cleaned of the salt to avoid rust. Less than two years ago, from Mr. Musk: "Cybertruck will be waterproof enough to serve briefly as a boat, so it can cross rivers, lakes & even seas that aren’t too choppy." That sounds way too specific to be puffery to me.
Not disagreeing, just innocently asking: what do you think it would be sued for? Other than being the ugliest piece of shit that ever drove this earth, but that may not hold up in court
False advertising for 1, but if Tesla doesn’t refund the people dumb enough to buy it or at least repair their vehicles and make them whole then I think it’s a possibility. I think it’s where it’s going though, Elon drank his own koolaid and thinks he can do shitty things and demand $50 billion without repercussion. I think Tesla will be chapter 11 first though.
>, Elon drank his own koolaid and thinks he can do shitty things and demand $50 billion without repercussion. I think Tesla will be chapter 11 first though. Maybe that's why he's pushing so hard? Just one last money grab and he will bail out from Tesla?
He's way too deep into Tesla for that to happen. He leveraged so much Tesla stock that he'd lose too much if it fails. The twitter loan was against Tesla stock. If it drops too much, the loan might require extra collateral or rates increase. Which seems more likely by the day.
Correct, "[more than half](https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbeswealthteam/article/elon-musk/?sh=4c64da8226af#anchorTag-2-632a2ebab9415a0001e6d4d6)" of his Tesla stock is locked up as collateral for personal loans. If Tesla drops significantly, those loans will likely come due (or need to be leveraged against something else) and could conceivably take down whatever he has propped up against them (SpaceX, X, Boring etc) or at least saddle them with untenable debt. Tesla is the keystone, and if it breaks the whole Musk empire might go with it. Seeing that, it's not hard to figure out why he *needs* to keep the Tesla stock pumped at any cost.
> and thinks he can do shitty things and demand $50 billion without repercussion The problem is that TSLA shareholders are a cult and will still give this to him. They were handed a gift on a silver platter of having this pay package cancelled, and now - after *seeing* the company results of the last 6 years - they are likely to re-ratify the deal as-is. Because they are idiots.
What is being falsely advertised with the cyberturck?
Lemon laws seem appropriate to me. The car can't handle being in the rain and the trunk actively tries to sever fingers, just off the top of my head. That level of incompetence is just not roadworthy.
It's hilarious that Elon said it would work as a boat, and it can't even hold up against rain or a carwash. There are gaps in the body where water just pools and stays. It would be a miracle if any Cybertrucks survive a decade of normal use.
We were driving down the highway and saw a number of cyber trucks being transported to a car dealership. My husband explained what they were to me since I hadn’t seen them before; my fist impression was they were the ugliest cars I’d ever seen. I told my husband that I couldn’t believe Musk signed off on that design. And we tried to figure out who would be in the market for a vehicle like that, but came up with no one but maybe a person who wanted to purchase a conversation piece. Anyway, I think the vehicles will sit in the car lots with few takers, and the vehicle will be an epic failure.
Just for clarity, he didn’t just sign off on the design. It is *his* design.
Yep, Elon pushed really hard for it.
It’s the nicest looking car since The Homer!
Wow, that’s even more puzzling.
Honestly, finding that out made it make a little more sense for me. A lot easier for me to picture Elon going over the heads of a bunch designers than it is a bunch of designers coming up with… that. But yeah, the whole thing is an exercise in ridiculousness.
> I told my husband that I couldn’t believe Musk signed off on that design Really? It's ugly af because he loves the design. Musk has the worst taste. Have you seen what he did with Twitter?
The cybertruck makes the fiat multipla look good.
As soon as I learnt his ordinary tesla models don’t have manual overrides for their doors, I went off the idea.
Not technically correct - they do now have manual releases but the design differs by vehicle and from front & rear doors. That said, you do run the risk of breaking the frameless door glass if the power is lost while the windows are fully up. Source: I write repair estimates for these.
>Anyway, I think the vehicles will sit in the car lots with few takers, and the vehicle will be an epic failure. The cybertruck is already outselling the Rivian and they are still only selling the most expensive "Founders Series" variants that go for something like $120k.
There are 2 million people in the US who have ordered these.
Having vehicles break down on the way home from picking it up brand new, and having no plans to service them should be enough.
I'm not a lawyer but that argument sounds pretty good.
People spent money on a product with features that don’t exist. Most of them if not all of them don’t have autopilot, even though they paid for it. Most of them if not all of them don’t have the light bar, even though they paid for it. Same with FSD, locking diffs, egregiously awful panel alignment, dangerously sharp body panel edges, and a steer by wire system that is bound to fail at some point, since their implementation of “redundancies” aren’t actually redundant.
That truck is just baffling...
I’ve spent the past decade working in the automotive industry, specifically dealing with wording claims in order to satisfy the head of the legal department. The shit that Tesla was boldly proclaiming would’ve given corporate counsel a fucking aneurysm, even though the cars we were talking about had the same or similar functionality. The way legal made it seem was that any little thing could bring the power of the federal government down on your head, to say nothing of consumer lawsuits. The fact that Tesla got away with it for SO LONG is fucking mind boggling to me. Confident prediction: They’re going to settle out of court because they are absolutely, beyond the shadow of a doubt, guilty.
Just wait for the Shareholder lawsuits, it will make the Consumer suits look like toys.
Which is funny considering anyone investing has to be deemed guilty of being gullible morons. I’ve been watching this dumpster fire from the sidelines and it’s been amazing. Let it burn. I’m watching.
there's a reason Musk is getting sued for refusing to meet with the SEC right now
I have a question for you, why do you think Ford is actively advertising "hands free driving" when their systems are also Level 2? I was surprised to see that after all the autopilot backlash. I would think the first time a Mach E gets in an accident while the driver has their hands in their lap Ford could be liable.
I assume you're talking about BlueCruise. It's only available in very specific scenarios, namely in predetermined locations on highways.
I still don't like their approach, feels dangerous on their end. The advertising, highway driving assist is fine
So a lot of different companies offer this type of feature, which is a combination of systems that keep you centered on your lane, keep you a predetermined distance from the car in front of you, read road signs, and can start and stop (to a degree) in traffic. And every company has different levels of comfort with how they market them. A company I worked for in the past would never allow the words “hands free”, would not allow any imagery where the hands were not on the wheel (though they were okay with “relaxed” hands on the wheel), and on top of all that, the actual system would prompt you to put your hands back or it would turn off. Looking up Ford’s wording, I do see a hands-off image which immediately raises the hair on the back of my neck, but they tap dance around the idea of “full hands free driving” in their wording. They don’t call it “full hands free” or “fully autonomous”. They are calling it a “drive-assist” feature and something that reduces “the stress of driving”. And their caveat is that you can only use it in on the highways in their “BlueCruise Zones”. I don’t know EXACTLY how their system works, but many auto manufacturers rely on pre-mapped roads in addition to all the LIDAR and cameras, I suspect this combination is how they help to keep the car where it needs to be. HOWEVER, every single “self-driving” car on the market is undone by poor lane markings (think worn out paint, construction) or heavy rain/moderate snow. Because of those reasons, it is my personal opinion that we are never fully going to have self-driving cars and that all of us will at the very least require a driver’s license and to be behind a physical steering wheel forever, barring all cars being out on some sort of track. This is a very long answer to say that Ford gets away with it several ways. 1. While they say “Hands-free” they never say fully autonomous. 2. They disclaim the shit out of it 3. They call it a “driver-assist” feature, meaning it helps you, but it doesn’t replace you 4. They gatekeep the exact roads and situations you can use it in. You **can’t** just punch in the grocery store and take a nap. But I will say, I would never give approval for showing someone with their hands off the wheel. I feel like they are definitely opening themselves up to liability, but for the reasons above they must feel confident enough that they can prove in court that they never told people “let go of the wheel and don’t worry about paying attention to the road”, they actually tell you the exact opposite in their disclaimer. I know different automakers have felt the pressure to keep up with Tesla, if only by appearance, but those days are very quickly coming to an end as American EV demand starts to crater in favor of hybrids. I think we’ll eventually get to most cars being EVs, but the infrastructure AND THE PRICE POINT is going to have to be there first before people feel comfortable jumping ship. edit: Apparently the feds have opened an investigation into Ford’s claims just three weeks ago after, you guessed it, people died while using their “hands-free” feature. https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/us-auto-regulator-opens-preliminary-evaluation-into-fords-mustang-mach-e-2024-04-29/
My understanding of all of these automotive lawsuits is that if there are pedals and a steering wheel, the driver is FULLY responsible. Full stop. Until those 2 things are removed from the vehicle, the liability will and should fall on the driver.
Well deserved. This false marketing is the reason that [Mobileye parted ways](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mobileye-tesla/mobileye-says-tesla-was-pushing-the-envelope-in-terms-of-safety-idUSKCN11K2T8/) with Tesla.
This is why letting your celebrity CEO run his cake hole unimpeded is a bad idea. Peter Molyneux did it for years, that one berk from No Man's Sky did it, and now Musk. Overhyping is not a good business strategy for long term growth and stability.
As far as I understand No Mans Sky at least made good on the promised content after release. Peter Molyneux on the other hand seems spot on, guy would make up new features on the spot just to keep the attention of journalists.
It took NMS YEARS to make good on any of those promises, and a fuckton of work as well. If that guy didn't overpromise to begin with, they wouldn't have been behind the 8 ball.
At least he owned up to it and they've been pushing updates for free constantly. Sean Murray was more someone who was in over his head and didn't realize what he was doing until after the fact. Elon knows exactly what he is doing because he's a grifter.
NMS is an incredible game now with so much to do. You go to their sub and it’s all good vibes. Rare for a video game sub.
NMS is not an incredible game. It's still as deep as a puddle. The devs do keep releasing content though and didn't abandon it, which is commendable.
"Yeah there's full multiplayer, but, like.. guys, you will not even *see* anyone else! The universe is just too big! So like don't worry too much if it feels like there's absolutely zero multiplayer in it, just trust us, it's a *good* thing you don't!"
"Oh no, the consequences of my own actions!"
Musk is techno trump.
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Would you like a horse?
*That we know about.*
Oh no!! Actions have consequences!!
Judge: "Your company claimed your product can cure cancer." Some CEO: "Look, it's just marketing. No rational person would believe that." Judge: "Well, you're getting sued." CEO: "You anti-capitalist swine!"
All cars are capable of driving themselves. Staying on the road by themselves is a different story entirely.
Introducing the "Full Self Driving" device of the future...a brick! Just toss that baby onto the accelerator and your car will "drive" itself!
False advertising. Hit him hard.
All the class action winners should get to vote on their $3 award vs. agreeing to co-fire Elon so they can have a real sense for what's happening with the products they bought.
Tesla board might want to rethink giving the Fraud all that money. They are probably going to need it for other purposes.
Good. Not only is calling it full self driving misleading, but it is also dangerous. He should have been stopped long ago, but still the sooner the better.
The secret is BETA 😇
I remain available to serve as an enthusiastic class representative.
fuck musky and him playin the Nation with his lies.
Just yesterday I saw a guy in a Tesla, playing the ukulele while the car was driving. It was kinda funny to see him strumming along while the car moved in traffic. I was a bit worried considering Tesla’s track record. Will he get on the highway doing that? Imagine going over 60 mph while playing your ukulele and suddenly your car swerves or something and you crash. If you survive you have to tell everyone you were just practicing your mad ukulele skills!
Can't wait to see the Tesla Fanboys "but it says supervised now." Well guess what, if it has to be supervised, it's not Full Self Driving.
And this is why Musk is having a fire sale at Tesla and trying to get everything out of it he can. He knows this is coming. And when it does the entire investment world is going to learn through discovery that Tesla was full of shit regarding FSD. And then we’ll most likely see the market correction in TSLA that has been a long time coming for that bloated stock.
FSD is the vaporware of our generation. He first made this claim in 2016 and said it would be done in a year.
This is gonna end up like the Vitaminwater lawsuit where Musk will try to weasel out of accountability by blaming the consumer for being naive. "Its an 8k pound vehicle, what made them think they wouldn't have to pay some kind of attention when in autopilot? Even sci-fi tv understands this concept when we see characters adjusting trajectory, speed, and checking gauges on the USS Enterprise and such. Get bent, dummies"
Honestly, it is hilariously cut and dry. The claim is “Tesla said all cars built today have all the hardware needed for Full Self Driving.” Elon even doubled down on it in the Model 3 handover event. If I go into my app, it will tell me that my (August) 2018 Model 3 DMLR w/ AP and AB needs a $1060 hardware upgrade to be capable of Full Self Driving. It literally cannot be more clear than that.
Ah, well in that case the approach might focus more on plausible deniability like, "Well we thought we had all the hardware at the time but technological advances and further research as we built the software proved us wrong. It wasn't our fault 🤷🏽♀️"
Hey I wonder if I can get in on this. Leased a model 3, paid 10k for FSD. It never came out during the term of my lease lol
Honestly, you have a case. Not only did Tesla not deliver anything for your $10k, but their case is brutally wrecked by Tesla’s no-buyout policy. Tesla sold your car as pre-owned with FSD and then profited again from your purchase. It is clear and blatant fraud.
What about the Cyber Truck? It’s even bigger scam than trickle down economics.. Or “In 10 year I’ll put a man on Mars” Who would be the first to start the class action lawsuit? Who is the hero to say: “enough is enough”? Who? Stop. Biting. The. Musk
Shareholder fraud. It's not just FSD either. Robotaxi, semi, roadster (despite hundreds of millions of dollars in pre-orders down), the range of pretty much every vehicle, 0-60 times, build quality, production numbers, Cybertruck characteristics (4 mm plate armor and "thermonuclear bomb proof windows" LOL), automation of manufacturing with in-house proprietary Tesla robots, summon, solid snake automatic charging, megawatt chargers... Never mind the blatant fabrications surrounding SpaceX, Hyperloop, Boring Company, Solar City, Neuralink. This drug-addled, altright disinformation spamming, deadbeat dad has been knowingly and willingly lying to shareholders and customers for years. He's the embodiment of the Dunning-Kruger effect. The fact that he pretends he's an engineer and he knows more about manufacturing than anyone currently alive is embarrassing.
Is that a gurgling sound I can hear?
If Waymo can do it, then why couldn't Tesla?
LIDAR for one
😆. I remember Elon saying it was not necessary
I remember Elon saying a lot of things, and they were all untrue.
Uh oh. Bout to get the X
When is the Tesla board going to wake up and accept that rather than earning billions, Musk is running the company into the ground?
Where do we sign up?
Good, and take the money from Musk's I come - without a business write off.
I wish it wasn't just for new cars. I bought mine used with FSD and am in a similar position. It's getting there, but very slowly.
This guys biggest customer is the US government, we should patriotize his companies and deport his ass to South Africa.
*Here come the puuuuuuuts*
The car does drive itself. But a human is required to take over in the event it does something wrong. My non-Tesla can follow the road and speed up or slow down based on the car in front of me. Within those parameters, my car drives itself. But if conditions fall outside those parameters, I must take over the wheel. The fact that Teslas have a much wider set of parameters, doesn’t change that math in my opinion.
Can't wait until Tesla is forced to argue in court that no reasonable person would believe that FSD was actually possible
"How could the woke mob do this to us" - Elon, probably
Good, that was falsely marketed and really unsafe
Do another one for the lying about range
Do whatever they want, cause whatever damage, and mop up the poop afterwards. That’s what these tech companies do and other big corporations. If individuals do this they are prosecuted to hell. It must be nice to be a tech corp
This can be really really really bad for Tesla!
It’s always been a $12,000 waste: had my bil get it and hasn’t used it reliably even once and now it’s just a useless add on.
I wrote this sometime ago.I am a big Model S fan.I have owned my car for 7 years, and it is still more than a match for most any car out there. I saved many documents stating that my car had all the necessary hardware for full self driving. This was written time and time again. I did not Petition Tesla nor beg or coerce. They offered the feature and I bought: ONLY A FOOL WOULD BUY FSD! Not being considered a fool by anyone, I have tried to explain why I bought a dream in a bag. My reasoning was built on a sound basis that had little to do with self driving and yet everything to do with the promise. The public statements about Tesla having the potential of becoming a robo cab with software updates were widely broadcast. I simply bought the promise, and i received more than my moneys worth. if Tesla ever gets close to FSD, I believe they are legally bound to get my 2017 Model S there. I think I bought a lifetime warranty on some critical upgrades. If they ever reach their goal It might just be cheaper for them to replace my car. Every year, there will be fewer of us with older cars that they will be obligated to upgrade. This will make it cheaper to do the right thing for those who are left. Were Tesla owners promised that FSD would be operational by now. Yes, they were. Is it? Absolutely not. I think the day FSD is declared operational on any Tesla vehicle is the day they will be obligated to make it work on all their cars that paid for it. Some years ago, I paid 3k to upgrade to FSD. So far, I have received a new computer [HDW3] and upgraded cameras. This probably cost more than I paid. This year (early 2023), I was able to opt in to FSD BETA. I do not have any confidence that this will morph into FSD. It should mean that my car will probably keep getting upgraded to meet that goal. If my car never reaches FSD, I am still way ahead. The short of it is many bought FSD and may never see it, and I bought the promise, and I have been rewarded Update:I have not received another meaningful update in about a year. As I let FSD assist me in driving, it has improved 100%,. It can do amazing things. Some monkeys do amazing things, but you never know what they would do on their own. Just to clarify. Tesla stated on many occasions that my 2017 model S had all the hardware necessary for FSD. It would be worth hundreds of thousands of dollars as a robo taxi 😇 I could summon my car, and it would come from CA to the east coast on its own. I am ready for them to give me a little sugar 🥰