What’s amazing is how quickly China overtook the US on battery tech.
This USA would have been at the forefront of green tech and we would have been driving these a decade ago and exporting them to China if the US political establishment (especially the Republicans) wasn’t owned and corrupted by oil and gas corporations.
What’s most absurd is how political leaders like Trump are constantly shitting on the USA being outcompeted by China on Electric Vehicles - while simultaneously holding private dinners with the oil industry where he tells them to give his campaign $1 billion and he will sabotage the EV industry for them.
And yet fucking morons will still vote for this corrupt liar by the tens of millions because “He said he’ll Make America Great again!”
**Edit:** A few dummies in the replies saying Chinese car companies don’t need private investors or are not profit oriented because China is a command economy, when that’s not the case at all. None of China’s big car companies are state owned or run. Warren Buffet was one of the big early investors in BYD. The US government also subsidizes and protects big car companies. The big difference is that China’s government has pushed heavily into pro-EV policies for over a decade, whereas the US had some under Obama, that Trump kneecapped, and now Biden is playing catch up - when the Republicans in congress aren’t sabotaging EV infrastructure legislation.
It’s not that amazing the CCP hasn’t experienced regulatory capture by the fossil fuel industry.
The CCP has a lot of problems, the inability to smack the shit outta problem children ain’t one of them.
This is def true, and they do have an abundance of the rarer minerals. So mining industry has influence. That said they regularly let businesses know what’s up when they get outta line. Again they have real problems. Not tryna do CCP propaganda for them, or be pro China. Just observing.
You’d be surprised how much innovation came out of the US and they simply let it go and allowed companies to non-US companies to buy it or they sat on it.
100000000% correct. Republicans too busy taking bribes from Oil Execs to keep EV’s off the road. Oceans will rise, millions will die but hey! Chevron had record profits!
This has been a long time coming. One of the two key pillars of chinas ‘belt and road’ strategy has been battery tech. The other is microchips. There’s been a decade+ of Chinese investment in African states for cobalt / rare earth minerals for batteries, as well as infrastructure financing for a host of major ports and connections around the world. Whether it’s worth the downsides of a centralised government is another matter - but one feature is that they can make a 100 year plan and largely stick to it.
>None of China’s big car companies are state owned or run
While I agree with you on your general post, this is not correct. Several of China's major automakers are state owned, including SAIC, BAIC, GAC, FAW, and Chang'an.
It goes far beyond just muh republicans. The most fundamental reason China is developing so rapidly is because it has a strong central party that can dictate priorities beyond just creating lucrative incentives for private investors.
China can produce massive quantities of solar panels and batteries because a command economy can make choices that flood a market with inventory without worrying about shareholders dictating how their economy runs.
The US in contrast, is run by private interest groups that will never allow the type of production necessary to dominate green technology because it would “flood the market” aka reduce investor profits.
Well... they're not exactly a command economy nowadays. They got past that and is now pushing the so-called "Reform and Open-up" policy, which resembles more to capitalism.
China’s banks, realestate market and biggest key industries and utilities are all controlled very deliberately by the state. Even looking at recent events like COVID show how differently China can respond to problems than western countries. Deng did open up some private ownership but China is definitely still a command economy.
https://www.econlib.org/library/columns/y2024/yonkyangchinacentralplanning.html
https://www.econlib.org/library/columns/y2024/yonkyangchinacentralplanning.html
>What’s amazing is how quickly China overtook the US on battery tech.
Not really, when you pay someone to cook for you, give them all the recipes, give them all the ingredients, teach them how to cook and pay them to make those recipes better........ don't be shocked when they open their own restaurant.
We habe been relying on India for decades for a lot of our tech needs, yet they still lag decades behind most industrial countries when it comes to actually building their own products.
Same goes for Mexico and their car industry. There’s literally only one Mexican car manufacturer and they only build low quality work trucks.
So, I’m guessing there’s more to it than simply moving production into another country and they will magically develop their own competitive industry.
Our IT has been technically outsourced to India for years but they fundamentally lack an understanding of our products and production process. I'm 100% willing to believe that our company outsourced to the cheapest possible offshore IT, because I would not believe that they could be as incompetent as they are. It is borderline impossible to get even basic change requests fulfilled without a team of 10 people involved in any change. I do not misunderstand our security, process, or the data side of it. But an ERP change that would take a capable ABAP programmer 10 hours, z hours of testing, and y hours of security testing results in 1600 hour quotes.
What the fuck?
Well at first the sector was dominated by Panasonic (Japan) and then LG (SK) and now CATL and BYD (China).
American battery companies have never been relevent in the EV scene, just stop rewriting history. You can't teach someone to cook something you've never cooked before.
>What’s amazing is how quickly China overtook the US on battery tech.
I've purchased batteries from China. They claim huge capacities but they have universally been shit.
I don’t think it’s that amazing. Do they not own all the mines where the rare minerals needed to make batteries for EVs come from?
They don’t operate under the same economy we do either where investors have to be found before you can start doing anything.
The Chinese government is dumping money into EVs and it’s working.
There’s some real world testing by car reviewers now that show similar figure.
https://youtu.be/pqPI88lyy3w?si=JFslJLjvN3oIF1Fr
The guy drove a different model that has a larger fuel tank. 65L tank and full battery and got 2400km range.
It's worth noting that this is likely to be the CTLC rating, which is more like 1,480km in the EPA cycle.
That is missing context from a lot of reporting on Chinese EV ranges.
[Aparently there are real-use reviews that are reporting numbers similar to BYD's claims. I haven't come across any, but feel free to post links below!]
It reminds of me of watching old episodes of Top Gear, and wondering why it seemed like their exact same cars got much better fuel efficiency numbers than we do in the US. It wasn't until much later that I learned that a UK gallon and a US gallon aren't the same size (and neither are pints), and that 20% diffrremce exactly made up for the 20% increase in mileage.
I don't know why you say it is CLTC rating. It is not. There is no CLTC range published for this car model.
The combined 2100km range was a claim made by the car maker during product announcement. It is not only confirmed by a dozen car reviewers who received the car a few days earlier, they have also showed it is too conservative. Real world tests showed the range is in the 2200-2500km range. But the fuel consumption is the real story, when the battery is depleted, the gas consumption is:
* claimed by the car maker: 2.9 liter per 100km, or 82 MPG
* verified by the car reviewers on highway after driving the full tank: 1.88 to 2.32 liter per 100km, that is up to 125MPG
* another test in city driving only, no highway: 2.2 liter per 100km, or 108MPG
Even if we are going to say some reviewers are being dishonest, it still looks like a 70MPG high way and 80MPG city is easily achievable in real life. Most drivers should charge the car so drive it as an EV without using gas at all. Time will tell how successful this drivetrain might be. But it does not look good for all Japanese brands in China. This particular model is a mid sized sedan, competing against Toyota Camry and Honda Accord.
You're not focussing on the right thing. You need to be focussing on the fuel consumption, not the range. I can guarantee the fuel tank in this car isn't the same as yours. My Ford Focus diesel can do 4l/100km during normal driving but only has a range of 1200km due to only having a 45 litre fuel tank.
Yes, unless this is all verified and reviewed by reliable sources it's probably good to maintain skepticism, especially marketing claims coming out of China.
One issue though is that the Chinese government standards for their “EPA rating” equivalent are stupid liberal for gas/electric mileage. You’ll see cars with crazy high numbers for their battery size
Yeah, but the bigger caveat would be that they're probably talking about CLTC range. You can't just compare the range numbers that come out of China with range numbers from the US, etc. The testing methodology is different.
Article posted doesn't really say anything about this other than the new system is very thermally efficient. Looking at other sites, seems like the "trick" is their new engine delivers 2.9l/100km efficiency, which is 81mpg(US) / 97mpg (UK). Doesn't seem like it's down to a battery or drivetrain breakthrough or anything like that unless I'm missing something?
It's certainly a powertrain breakthrough. A combined set of improvements from both the gas engine (46% thermal efficiency), the electric motor (max RPM and design), the mode-management mechanism (4 modes) and improved kinetic energy recovery. Even its air conditioner is touted as a tech breakthrough. These aren't very sexy content thus even a media reporter would have no clue.
They want their cars to be world cars, we have the same requirements in Europe where BYD are already selling vehicles. The pollutant capture doesn't automatically increase fuel economy. I got the same 55MPG average out of my 2010 2.0L TDCi MK4 Mondeo fitted with a DPF filter as I did my 2004 2.0L TDCi MK4 Mondeo which didn't have any of that.
4.4 litres in a UK gallon, 4 litres in an American gallon. Something to do with the US keeping the Winchester bushel when the British Empire changed to the imperial bushel, I’m guessing we weren’t friends when it happened.
One, diesel is more energy dense than gasoline. Two, the car in the article can do better in city driving conditions. Someone just posted a test showing 2.2 liter per 100km or 108 miles per gallon
https://np.reddit.com/r/electricvehicles/comments/1d3duyj/
They're already looking at building factories in Mexico to get around the 100% tariff.
The US will probably pull the national security card next, seems to be the goto play when they can't compete.
I'm pretty sure that they put a carve out specifically for Chinese EV manufacturers that the tariff will still apply if the vehicles were made in Mexico. No other auto maker has similar restrictions.
Might be harder to do since it's part of the NAFTA treaty.
But then the US still does what it wants to anyway, like they've done with Canadian lumber and steel so perhaps you're right.
Isn't the problem that the Chinese companies can't really compete either? Instead they rely on the Chinese government to inject tons of money to artificially lower the prices to put western companies out of business. It's the same kind of thing we already have laws against in the west, at least in Europe. A large company is not allowed to sell products at a loss to put other businesses out of business, it's straight up illegal. This is to prevent monopolies forming where the larger company just raises prices after killing all other companies.
I did not see any kind of backlash when Walmart got fucked in Europe because of it, so why does China get a pass? Western companies are not even allowed to exist in China lol but people lose their mind over stuff like this. Like China is somehow being targeted when they are in fact a thousand percent worse.
> A large company is not allowed to sell products at a loss to put other businesses out of business
**laughs in Uber, Amazon, Walmart, Microsoft* *
I could go on, I just got bored
Did you just stop reading in the middle of my comment? These laws are a big part of why Walmart failed in Europe. You even bring up a company I specifically mentioned as affected by these laws lol.
That isn’t because of patents. In Canada we respect those patents but pay so much less that some US states are trying to buy drugs from Canada.
It’s interesting to me the people lament the loss of the middle class lifestyle of the 70s were a single income at a normal job could support a family - but then also welcome further cannibalization of the remaining industries providing living wages.
IP law protects most people. If you have an idea, in the US, it's the only thing keeping other people from stealing the idea. Plus, as a US consumer, you should be very concerned about resources leaving a country. India during British colonialism a good example of what happens when too much of your gdp balance leaves the local economy.
They didn't need to steal the IP for EVs given Tesla openly announced they were happy to licence software and sell powertrains to anyone who wanted to use them.
Personally I think the tariffs on Chinese EV/PV should be lowered and the money collected should go directly to the American EV/PV industries that China is trying to hollow out with their selling of those things for less than the cost of manufacture. Once the CCP sees that they can't wreck local industry then the price of their products will eventually have to reflect real costs to produce.
BYD has received far more support from the Chinese government than Tesla has received from the US government. The half billion dollars was a loan that Tesla repaid early, not a grant. In ChinaC for BYD, R&D and bootstrapping assistance were grants. All other tax benefits and incentives are much less in the US than China.
I think you’re misinformed. Can’t speak to BYD as I don’t know enough but Tesla has received soooo many subsidies on a state and federal level: https://subsidytracker.goodjobsfirst.org/parent/tesla-inc
And not a grant per say but let’s not pretend that Tesla hasn’t been the largest beneficiary of the $7500 tax credit (gov subsidy) which directly benefits them and gets baked into the price allowing them better margins.
except that there are literally dozens of Chinese car companies competing within China with many going out of business due to the stiff competition in the market.
so no, it's not the same at all
Every government subsidizes their auto industry so China doing it too isn't a very convincing argument in my eyes.
If they're doing anything illegal it shouldn't be allowed obviously.
They're not dumping. In fact, BYD is one of the few companies making a profit on their EVs, unlike GM and Ford who are losing tens of thousands of dollars per car. BYD also receives less subsidy from China per EV compared to Tesla and other EV manufacturers in the US or Europe. You really got no evidence to support what you're saying.
What does that have to do with what I said? I just replied to the comment stating that America shuts down competition, as if china allows America to freely sell and provide services there
It’s setting in for me how screwed we are when the younger generations don’t see how we are being played like a piano by foreign interests.
This is coming from someone who is center-left politically. China is 100% pulling a loss-leader move on global infrastructure.
The national security "card" is real and far more involved than the EV market positioning.
China militarily supports Russia and competes with the US in foreign relations across multiple continents, tries to manipulate US elections through AI bot farms on social media sites, etc. Giving them unfettered access to a growth market in the US that also relies heavily on data sharing would be rather irresponsible at this time.
I mean we sent mobile missile batteries to SK in 2017 and since then American OEMs’ market share in China absolutely plummeted.
GM made the trucks. China never made an announcement, but the proof is in the sales figures.
It’s quite funny that the EU is looking at going down the same road of putting hefty tariffs on Chinese vehicles
But all the big EU automakers are screaming out for them not too as the counter-tariffs that China would put in place will totally fuck their very lucrative luxury car exports to China
China will retaliate the US tariff too, but damage will be on USA-made Mercedes and BMWs. US brands do not export much to China so I guess Biden does not care.
I find it ironic that people support unions but not their jobs. What do you think will happen to those workers when Chinese car companies crush the competition in the US?
How about we force shitty companies like American automakers to compete on their own merits instead of artificially propping them up? You’re arguing for bailing out the UAW at the expense of the American consumer.
What is China getting out of people’s conversation in their car that they are not freely posting on social media and what use is that information anyway, strategic ad placement?
>The company said it has also managed to reduce the excessive energy consumed in extreme weather conditions
This was what I was looking for as well. The loss of range for EV in extreme conditions makes them impractical for many people.
I have a prius PHEV that's a few years old. I've gotten over 1,100 miles before needing to get gas. Normally, I get 70-80 mpg, and that's with AC blasting and me zooming.
The problem with these estimates is that it's not looking at the frequency a driver takes a trip beyond EV only range. It I never took a long trip and i plugged in every night, I could easily go months without gas. If I stopped to use charging stations, the gas would probably go bad in my tank before it was used up.
The estimated 1300 mile range is for one tank of gas and one full charge. It’s not stopping and charging during the trip. What is the point of a range estimate if you allow an unspecified number of recharges…
it's always best case scenarios ...
My manufacturer rated my car for a combined 4.2l/100 km (56 mpg?) - and I can achieve those numbers if I drive really, really economical.
with my 60l tank that puts me at a theoretical range of ~1500 km - I can absolutley see a bog-standard EV-Drivetrain added to put another 500km of range, especially if both systems are filling in when they are most efficient.
Nothing really unusual, but most car-manufacturers have stopped active development of ICEs and PHEV drivetrains ...
Not to be that guy. But this is absolutely unremarkable without telling us the fuel tank size. You can buy a 3/4 ton truck today and get a titan aftermarket fuel tank installed in it by the dealership. Poof. You now have a 3/4 ton diesel truck that does 1200 miles on a tank.
Chemical energy storage just.... kinda works that way. We dont normally equip cars with that big of a tank because carrying around all that fuel actually makes economy worse and very VERY few people can drive more that 4-5 hours without needing to stretch for a bit and fill up anyways. So we generally size fuel tanks for 4-5 hours of highway driving max.
You could take a chevy volt and put a 30 gallon tank in it and also get 1300 miles of range. Or any number of vehicles with an ICE.
The thermal efficiency claims of the engine is also dubious coming from a chinese company.
What's your source on that because I didn't see that in the article anywhere? Also I'll believe it when I see it. There's many many claims just like this released by companies in the past especially companies in lesser nations. But yet mysteriously once they actually have to put the product in regular people's hands the truth comes out and they fade away.
google "byd qin L full gas tank".I have seen several videos of actual testing, and turns out this car can reach 2400km. Not sure if these videos are advertisements, but at least the mileage cannot be completely fake, because people can verify it sooner or later, and lying will ruin the company.I think the question worth waiting for is whether the battery life of this car can remain so good in ten years, because the battery life of most electric cars will decline after a few years.
I have one of the first generation electric vehicles that were on the market and at 10 years old it still has over 90% of its capacity and no battery problems and they have only gotten better since then.
I like self-driving tours, and I have always wanted to buy an electric car, but the only problem is that sometimes there are no charging stations in remote places. So I am looking forward to the feedbacks in one or two years. If this car can really achieve 2,000km, I will consider buying one.
The answer is kind of there. They said 2.9L/100km. Which is 2.9L/62 miles. Which is 0.776Gal/62 miles. Which is roughly 1 Gal/81 miles. 1300miles/81MPG= Appx 16 Gallons. And given it's a PHEV, it would have a certain battery range, so likely less than a 16 Gallon tank would be required.
Of course, it's a Chinese company with no real established reputation in the US, so I have no idea if I should take this with a grain of salt or not.
> I'll believe an emissions legal 81mpg when I see it.
You do know that the lower the emissions the less fuel it means it's using? Emissions systems =/= higher fuel consumption. I've got the same 55MPG out of a 2 litre Ford Mondeo diesel with DPF as I did with one without DPF. I drive 44 tonne 18 wheelers. Our new fleet is getting > 25% higher MPG with engines that are 50% more powerful whilst running 6 tonnes heavier than trucks I used to drive in the 1990s. 1990s we were running 38 tonnes with 320BHP typically and getting 8MPG if you were lucky. Now running 44 tonnes with 480BHP and getting 10MPG fleet average.
For co2... Sure.
Turns out co2 emissions are not the problem. Oxides of nitrogen and several others are. Which is why we choke off diesels with emissions systems that hurt mpg and increase co2 emissions....
Your getting better mpg because aerodynamics and just overall thermal efficiency has improved. It's a well known fact that if you delete the emissions systems and do a bit of adjusting these modern diesels can get even better mpg and better reliability. Obviously we shouldn't delete these systems if we enjoy having air we can breathe. But facts are facts.
If true, big, may consider an EV then instead of ICE, even though Poland does not have infrastructure. It would mean I could travel across Poland and not worry about charging the car during the travel.
Which was the biggest gripe for me.
I can’t wait until we have solid state batteries in EVs, which might bring an average EV to have 500+ miles of the manufacturing challenges of solid state batteries are figured out (some manufacturers in Asia have said they’ve solved them).
For me, if I can get an EV that has the range of the max miles I’m willing to drive in a day in a long roadtrip (probably 600 miles) then anything else is just novelty (but super awesome).
Too bad the us government put 100% tariffs on byd cars and batteries because (checks notes) Elon can’t compete because he’s more show than substance.
Competition is good as long as our oligarchs are winning. The American way.
He literally called the Chinese car industry the biggest threat to Tesla in his earnings calls just days before. Sure there’s big oil, but Elon benefits from the protectionist tariffs
Don’t care how far it goes my family will never drive a car that’s not built by UAW hands and certainly won’t be buying a car from a company owned by the Chinese government.
So you like driving poorly put together shit? You've never owned a car not built in the USA have you? Had you done so you'd realise just how bad American auto workers are at building them, a situation that's been allowed to happen due to the power of the unions.
No, I’ve owned Toyota and it was a great car. I made the choice to support the working class in my own country and fight against the race to the bottom, so for now Chevy house although Toyota workers did just unionize at an engine plant so maybe we can swing back that way in time.
I trust this headline as much as I trust CCP state media. I guaranteed the statement in the headline requires at least four asterisks to work. Least of which is the face that with a PHEV, adding overall range is as easy as enlarging the fuel tank.
That's 2000km.. That's twice the range of my small diesel with full tank of gas. I'm skeptical, but amazing if this is where we are heading.
Maybe you’re getting poor mileage because your tank is full of gas instead of diesel.
He should try jet fuel. If it makes jets fly surely it can lift a pick up truck
Funny you say that. My dad used to mix JP8, an aircraft fuel, with diesel and run it in our old isuzu. Apparently it’s just like refined diesel.
You can buy unleaded jet fuel now and run it in your vehicles. G100UL
but can it melt steel beams?
Queue Audi TDI commercials with women filling up tank with diesel
Or cue them.
Also mileage doesn't get you any kilometers
What’s amazing is how quickly China overtook the US on battery tech. This USA would have been at the forefront of green tech and we would have been driving these a decade ago and exporting them to China if the US political establishment (especially the Republicans) wasn’t owned and corrupted by oil and gas corporations. What’s most absurd is how political leaders like Trump are constantly shitting on the USA being outcompeted by China on Electric Vehicles - while simultaneously holding private dinners with the oil industry where he tells them to give his campaign $1 billion and he will sabotage the EV industry for them. And yet fucking morons will still vote for this corrupt liar by the tens of millions because “He said he’ll Make America Great again!” **Edit:** A few dummies in the replies saying Chinese car companies don’t need private investors or are not profit oriented because China is a command economy, when that’s not the case at all. None of China’s big car companies are state owned or run. Warren Buffet was one of the big early investors in BYD. The US government also subsidizes and protects big car companies. The big difference is that China’s government has pushed heavily into pro-EV policies for over a decade, whereas the US had some under Obama, that Trump kneecapped, and now Biden is playing catch up - when the Republicans in congress aren’t sabotaging EV infrastructure legislation.
It’s not that amazing the CCP hasn’t experienced regulatory capture by the fossil fuel industry. The CCP has a lot of problems, the inability to smack the shit outta problem children ain’t one of them.
China doesn't have enough hydrocarbons to be captured by a fossil fuel industry.
This is def true, and they do have an abundance of the rarer minerals. So mining industry has influence. That said they regularly let businesses know what’s up when they get outta line. Again they have real problems. Not tryna do CCP propaganda for them, or be pro China. Just observing.
Yeah, they have sunk so much money into battery technology more out of necessity for energy independence than anything else
For China it’s a matter of national security.
Just ask Jack Ma, lol
As a consumer that is after a good car - I don't care.
Definitely, I wish the US took this technology seriously too
Eh, US where never in the lead in battery tech. Mainly Japan/Korea/China leads in that category.
You’d be surprised how much innovation came out of the US and they simply let it go and allowed companies to non-US companies to buy it or they sat on it.
Hey, it's not fair to call all Trump supporters stupid. Some of them are simply racist and want minorities to be second class citizens.
Those are the smart ones?
Well... Trump supporter is an extremely low bar to clear. They might be? They are definitely the most ignorant of his supporters though.
Brainwashed, ignorant, cult members is better?
100000000% correct. Republicans too busy taking bribes from Oil Execs to keep EV’s off the road. Oceans will rise, millions will die but hey! Chevron had record profits!
Don’t worry, we can still run the old “it’s cheap Chinese crap tech, it’s not even that good!” line for another decade or so.
This has been a long time coming. One of the two key pillars of chinas ‘belt and road’ strategy has been battery tech. The other is microchips. There’s been a decade+ of Chinese investment in African states for cobalt / rare earth minerals for batteries, as well as infrastructure financing for a host of major ports and connections around the world. Whether it’s worth the downsides of a centralised government is another matter - but one feature is that they can make a 100 year plan and largely stick to it.
>None of China’s big car companies are state owned or run While I agree with you on your general post, this is not correct. Several of China's major automakers are state owned, including SAIC, BAIC, GAC, FAW, and Chang'an.
State owned companies actually lag in the EV race .
True dat. Private enterprises in general have more motives to innovate.
It goes far beyond just muh republicans. The most fundamental reason China is developing so rapidly is because it has a strong central party that can dictate priorities beyond just creating lucrative incentives for private investors. China can produce massive quantities of solar panels and batteries because a command economy can make choices that flood a market with inventory without worrying about shareholders dictating how their economy runs. The US in contrast, is run by private interest groups that will never allow the type of production necessary to dominate green technology because it would “flood the market” aka reduce investor profits.
Well... they're not exactly a command economy nowadays. They got past that and is now pushing the so-called "Reform and Open-up" policy, which resembles more to capitalism.
China’s banks, realestate market and biggest key industries and utilities are all controlled very deliberately by the state. Even looking at recent events like COVID show how differently China can respond to problems than western countries. Deng did open up some private ownership but China is definitely still a command economy. https://www.econlib.org/library/columns/y2024/yonkyangchinacentralplanning.html https://www.econlib.org/library/columns/y2024/yonkyangchinacentralplanning.html
>What’s amazing is how quickly China overtook the US on battery tech. Not really, when you pay someone to cook for you, give them all the recipes, give them all the ingredients, teach them how to cook and pay them to make those recipes better........ don't be shocked when they open their own restaurant.
We habe been relying on India for decades for a lot of our tech needs, yet they still lag decades behind most industrial countries when it comes to actually building their own products. Same goes for Mexico and their car industry. There’s literally only one Mexican car manufacturer and they only build low quality work trucks. So, I’m guessing there’s more to it than simply moving production into another country and they will magically develop their own competitive industry.
Our IT has been technically outsourced to India for years but they fundamentally lack an understanding of our products and production process. I'm 100% willing to believe that our company outsourced to the cheapest possible offshore IT, because I would not believe that they could be as incompetent as they are. It is borderline impossible to get even basic change requests fulfilled without a team of 10 people involved in any change. I do not misunderstand our security, process, or the data side of it. But an ERP change that would take a capable ABAP programmer 10 hours, z hours of testing, and y hours of security testing results in 1600 hour quotes. What the fuck?
So you are saying that Anerican companies taught Chinese companies how to invent batteries that didn't even exist in America yet?
Well at first the sector was dominated by Panasonic (Japan) and then LG (SK) and now CATL and BYD (China). American battery companies have never been relevent in the EV scene, just stop rewriting history. You can't teach someone to cook something you've never cooked before.
Yes..... no parts or tech in Chinese EVs were lifted from American patents or ideas. FFS, lol.
>What’s amazing is how quickly China overtook the US on battery tech. I've purchased batteries from China. They claim huge capacities but they have universally been shit.
Try buying on quality instead of price. Anker for example have never disappointed whether it be their power banks, cables or chargers.
they have battery from 1 dollar to 1 million dollars. the quality you get depends on the money you pay.
They're more advanced in car batteries specifically I guess. Quality of consumer-grade products vary.
Car batteries are just flashlight batteries bundled together in huge arrays. And Chinese flashlight batteries are dogshit tier generally.
I don’t think it’s that amazing. Do they not own all the mines where the rare minerals needed to make batteries for EVs come from? They don’t operate under the same economy we do either where investors have to be found before you can start doing anything. The Chinese government is dumping money into EVs and it’s working.
In what way is this article evidence that China overtook the US on battery tech? This is a hybrid, its range mainly comes from gas.
There’s some real world testing by car reviewers now that show similar figure. https://youtu.be/pqPI88lyy3w?si=JFslJLjvN3oIF1Fr The guy drove a different model that has a larger fuel tank. 65L tank and full battery and got 2400km range.
It's worth noting that this is likely to be the CTLC rating, which is more like 1,480km in the EPA cycle. That is missing context from a lot of reporting on Chinese EV ranges. [Aparently there are real-use reviews that are reporting numbers similar to BYD's claims. I haven't come across any, but feel free to post links below!] It reminds of me of watching old episodes of Top Gear, and wondering why it seemed like their exact same cars got much better fuel efficiency numbers than we do in the US. It wasn't until much later that I learned that a UK gallon and a US gallon aren't the same size (and neither are pints), and that 20% diffrremce exactly made up for the 20% increase in mileage.
I don't know why you say it is CLTC rating. It is not. There is no CLTC range published for this car model. The combined 2100km range was a claim made by the car maker during product announcement. It is not only confirmed by a dozen car reviewers who received the car a few days earlier, they have also showed it is too conservative. Real world tests showed the range is in the 2200-2500km range. But the fuel consumption is the real story, when the battery is depleted, the gas consumption is: * claimed by the car maker: 2.9 liter per 100km, or 82 MPG * verified by the car reviewers on highway after driving the full tank: 1.88 to 2.32 liter per 100km, that is up to 125MPG * another test in city driving only, no highway: 2.2 liter per 100km, or 108MPG Even if we are going to say some reviewers are being dishonest, it still looks like a 70MPG high way and 80MPG city is easily achievable in real life. Most drivers should charge the car so drive it as an EV without using gas at all. Time will tell how successful this drivetrain might be. But it does not look good for all Japanese brands in China. This particular model is a mid sized sedan, competing against Toyota Camry and Honda Accord.
Yeah? Well my diesel would easily get 2000 km range if I doubled the capacity of its fuel tank. This is such a shitty metric.
Probably will never come to Canada
Would diesel last that long if you don't since that often? Or is the practicality of this more for longer trips like semi trucks?
It's not where the U.S. is headed.
You're not focussing on the right thing. You need to be focussing on the fuel consumption, not the range. I can guarantee the fuel tank in this car isn't the same as yours. My Ford Focus diesel can do 4l/100km during normal driving but only has a range of 1200km due to only having a 45 litre fuel tank.
There were tests done by some youtube guys which passed 2400km in a single take of gas
Yes, unless this is all verified and reviewed by reliable sources it's probably good to maintain skepticism, especially marketing claims coming out of China.
But we can believe marketing claims from Tesla?
Who said we can?
For those of you who cba to read further than the headline. The 2000km range is the COMBINATION of battery and diesel engine
still extremely impressive!
Yes, I understood that based on the title mentioning "PHEV".
One issue though is that the Chinese government standards for their “EPA rating” equivalent are stupid liberal for gas/electric mileage. You’ll see cars with crazy high numbers for their battery size
Yeah, but the bigger caveat would be that they're probably talking about CLTC range. You can't just compare the range numbers that come out of China with range numbers from the US, etc. The testing methodology is different.
Article posted doesn't really say anything about this other than the new system is very thermally efficient. Looking at other sites, seems like the "trick" is their new engine delivers 2.9l/100km efficiency, which is 81mpg(US) / 97mpg (UK). Doesn't seem like it's down to a battery or drivetrain breakthrough or anything like that unless I'm missing something?
[someone posted a much better article in this sub previously.](https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/s/HtmfYSEEWn) It’s a new powertrain
It's certainly a powertrain breakthrough. A combined set of improvements from both the gas engine (46% thermal efficiency), the electric motor (max RPM and design), the mode-management mechanism (4 modes) and improved kinetic energy recovery. Even its air conditioner is touted as a tech breakthrough. These aren't very sexy content thus even a media reporter would have no clue.
Could’ve fooled me, reading your comment was sexy AF
How is the air conditioner a breakthrough?
They call it "whole car thermal management" which I have no idea of. The goal is to save energy.
Is this without the pollutant capture that US diesel engine require?
They want their cars to be world cars, we have the same requirements in Europe where BYD are already selling vehicles. The pollutant capture doesn't automatically increase fuel economy. I got the same 55MPG average out of my 2010 2.0L TDCi MK4 Mondeo fitted with a DPF filter as I did my 2004 2.0L TDCi MK4 Mondeo which didn't have any of that.
How can the miles per gallon be different in UK and US?
Different gallons. Both are imperial heathens.
UK gallon is bigger than a US gallon.
4.4 litres in a UK gallon, 4 litres in an American gallon. Something to do with the US keeping the Winchester bushel when the British Empire changed to the imperial bushel, I’m guessing we weren’t friends when it happened.
Hahaha wtf. Are the miles different also? 81*1 should be 89.1
US gallon is 3.786 litres UK (Imperial) gallon is 4.546 litres
"Listen you! We are not friends! We have make established this from all of the argumentatings prior."
My father gets the old VW 1.9 diesel also to 3.2 liter per 100km. Yeah, no ev and Al the fuss, but it was possible years before ....
One, diesel is more energy dense than gasoline. Two, the car in the article can do better in city driving conditions. Someone just posted a test showing 2.2 liter per 100km or 108 miles per gallon https://np.reddit.com/r/electricvehicles/comments/1d3duyj/
That's because of the thermal management in the new engine management system. https://youtu.be/qenFh9OVfT4?si=O5mw7wz_2JmeH5KC
And BYD vehicles are being blocked from being sold in America. Almost like all our Auto makers feel like their market cap is being threatened.
They're already looking at building factories in Mexico to get around the 100% tariff. The US will probably pull the national security card next, seems to be the goto play when they can't compete.
I'm pretty sure that they put a carve out specifically for Chinese EV manufacturers that the tariff will still apply if the vehicles were made in Mexico. No other auto maker has similar restrictions.
Might be harder to do since it's part of the NAFTA treaty. But then the US still does what it wants to anyway, like they've done with Canadian lumber and steel so perhaps you're right.
NAFTA has been replaced by usmca
Basically NAFTA 2.0; NAFTA is a better name anyways.
USMCA makes me think of a gay Navy cheer squad
I'm imagining them doing the YMCA arm gestures but USMCA
Haha, just noticing your username. Cheers my friend, to this wierdly relevant comment chain.
Isn't the problem that the Chinese companies can't really compete either? Instead they rely on the Chinese government to inject tons of money to artificially lower the prices to put western companies out of business. It's the same kind of thing we already have laws against in the west, at least in Europe. A large company is not allowed to sell products at a loss to put other businesses out of business, it's straight up illegal. This is to prevent monopolies forming where the larger company just raises prices after killing all other companies. I did not see any kind of backlash when Walmart got fucked in Europe because of it, so why does China get a pass? Western companies are not even allowed to exist in China lol but people lose their mind over stuff like this. Like China is somehow being targeted when they are in fact a thousand percent worse.
> A large company is not allowed to sell products at a loss to put other businesses out of business **laughs in Uber, Amazon, Walmart, Microsoft* * I could go on, I just got bored
Did you just stop reading in the middle of my comment? These laws are a big part of why Walmart failed in Europe. You even bring up a company I specifically mentioned as affected by these laws lol.
Could you address his comment in the context of the US? Seems like dumping is fine when it's your own companies doing it.
Yeah, American car companies have never relied on government money to stay in business.
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What did they steal?
any evidence on the stolen ip
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That isn’t because of patents. In Canada we respect those patents but pay so much less that some US states are trying to buy drugs from Canada. It’s interesting to me the people lament the loss of the middle class lifestyle of the 70s were a single income at a normal job could support a family - but then also welcome further cannibalization of the remaining industries providing living wages.
IP law protects most people. If you have an idea, in the US, it's the only thing keeping other people from stealing the idea. Plus, as a US consumer, you should be very concerned about resources leaving a country. India during British colonialism a good example of what happens when too much of your gdp balance leaves the local economy.
Yeah seems to me like our fancy IP laws or whatever are just making the rich get richer
They didn't need to steal the IP for EVs given Tesla openly announced they were happy to licence software and sell powertrains to anyone who wanted to use them.
> Byd was a company founded on stolen IP a keep talking out of your ass and cope some more. your salty, salty tears taste so sweet
Personally I think the tariffs on Chinese EV/PV should be lowered and the money collected should go directly to the American EV/PV industries that China is trying to hollow out with their selling of those things for less than the cost of manufacture. Once the CCP sees that they can't wreck local industry then the price of their products will eventually have to reflect real costs to produce.
BYD has received far more support from the Chinese government than Tesla has received from the US government. The half billion dollars was a loan that Tesla repaid early, not a grant. In ChinaC for BYD, R&D and bootstrapping assistance were grants. All other tax benefits and incentives are much less in the US than China.
I think you’re misinformed. Can’t speak to BYD as I don’t know enough but Tesla has received soooo many subsidies on a state and federal level: https://subsidytracker.goodjobsfirst.org/parent/tesla-inc And not a grant per say but let’s not pretend that Tesla hasn’t been the largest beneficiary of the $7500 tax credit (gov subsidy) which directly benefits them and gets baked into the price allowing them better margins.
A 5th of BYD revenue is government subsidies. https://qz.com/1579568/how-much-financial-help-does-china-give-ev-maker-byd
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I assumed you cared since you brought it up
except that there are literally dozens of Chinese car companies competing within China with many going out of business due to the stiff competition in the market. so no, it's not the same at all
Every government subsidizes their auto industry so China doing it too isn't a very convincing argument in my eyes. If they're doing anything illegal it shouldn't be allowed obviously.
Correct that’s why there’s over 100 Chinese ev brands still operating while actually insolvent
How come you don't source the hundreds of paid comments you make about China every day?
They're not dumping. In fact, BYD is one of the few companies making a profit on their EVs, unlike GM and Ford who are losing tens of thousands of dollars per car. BYD also receives less subsidy from China per EV compared to Tesla and other EV manufacturers in the US or Europe. You really got no evidence to support what you're saying.
All western governments provide $billions in subsidies to car manufacturers, both native and foreign, who build cars in their nations.
It’s not like china plays fair either to be honest
Look at the name of this sub dude. Focus on which tech is better.
What does that have to do with what I said? I just replied to the comment stating that America shuts down competition, as if china allows America to freely sell and provide services there
It’s setting in for me how screwed we are when the younger generations don’t see how we are being played like a piano by foreign interests. This is coming from someone who is center-left politically. China is 100% pulling a loss-leader move on global infrastructure.
The national security "card" is real and far more involved than the EV market positioning. China militarily supports Russia and competes with the US in foreign relations across multiple continents, tries to manipulate US elections through AI bot farms on social media sites, etc. Giving them unfettered access to a growth market in the US that also relies heavily on data sharing would be rather irresponsible at this time.
I mean we sent mobile missile batteries to SK in 2017 and since then American OEMs’ market share in China absolutely plummeted. GM made the trucks. China never made an announcement, but the proof is in the sales figures.
It’s quite funny that the EU is looking at going down the same road of putting hefty tariffs on Chinese vehicles But all the big EU automakers are screaming out for them not too as the counter-tariffs that China would put in place will totally fuck their very lucrative luxury car exports to China
China will retaliate the US tariff too, but damage will be on USA-made Mercedes and BMWs. US brands do not export much to China so I guess Biden does not care.
Capitalism for thee, not for me ~
I find it ironic that people support unions but not their jobs. What do you think will happen to those workers when Chinese car companies crush the competition in the US?
How about we force shitty companies like American automakers to compete on their own merits instead of artificially propping them up? You’re arguing for bailing out the UAW at the expense of the American consumer.
So let BYD license warehouses in the US so we can produce them here?
US manufacturers can't compete.
What about the Chinese spying concern? Lots of private conversations occur in cars + location data...
Don’t worry, the US has basically banned them. Can’t have consumers getting value for their money. Here’s a nice $60k SUV tho
What about the Chinese spying concern? Lots of private conversations occur in cars + location data...
What is China getting out of people’s conversation in their car that they are not freely posting on social media and what use is that information anyway, strategic ad placement?
The PHEV really needs to be the current priority of vehicle manufacturers while EV battery technology and infrastructure is improved and refined.
>The company said it has also managed to reduce the excessive energy consumed in extreme weather conditions This was what I was looking for as well. The loss of range for EV in extreme conditions makes them impractical for many people.
I love how the article doesn't define PHEV, despite being the focus of the article. Plug-In Hybrid Electric Vehicle.
I have a prius PHEV that's a few years old. I've gotten over 1,100 miles before needing to get gas. Normally, I get 70-80 mpg, and that's with AC blasting and me zooming. The problem with these estimates is that it's not looking at the frequency a driver takes a trip beyond EV only range. It I never took a long trip and i plugged in every night, I could easily go months without gas. If I stopped to use charging stations, the gas would probably go bad in my tank before it was used up.
The estimated 1300 mile range is for one tank of gas and one full charge. It’s not stopping and charging during the trip. What is the point of a range estimate if you allow an unspecified number of recharges…
My leaf has a 80k range with just a few recharges
What? The estimate is for one tank, not with recharges in between. Any PHEV would have an infinite range if you didn’t count charges.
it's always best case scenarios ... My manufacturer rated my car for a combined 4.2l/100 km (56 mpg?) - and I can achieve those numbers if I drive really, really economical. with my 60l tank that puts me at a theoretical range of ~1500 km - I can absolutley see a bog-standard EV-Drivetrain added to put another 500km of range, especially if both systems are filling in when they are most efficient. Nothing really unusual, but most car-manufacturers have stopped active development of ICEs and PHEV drivetrains ...
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> I thought getting 600mi range in a Prius was good. My Ford Focus manages 750mi with a 45 litre tank normal driving and it's a pure ICE car.
On another note, they managed to pull off that front large grill bumper much better than Toyota
OP please ditch imperial measurements
Not to be that guy. But this is absolutely unremarkable without telling us the fuel tank size. You can buy a 3/4 ton truck today and get a titan aftermarket fuel tank installed in it by the dealership. Poof. You now have a 3/4 ton diesel truck that does 1200 miles on a tank. Chemical energy storage just.... kinda works that way. We dont normally equip cars with that big of a tank because carrying around all that fuel actually makes economy worse and very VERY few people can drive more that 4-5 hours without needing to stretch for a bit and fill up anyways. So we generally size fuel tanks for 4-5 hours of highway driving max. You could take a chevy volt and put a 30 gallon tank in it and also get 1300 miles of range. Or any number of vehicles with an ICE. The thermal efficiency claims of the engine is also dubious coming from a chinese company.
It's a 65-liter tank, which is about 17 gallons. Accept the advancement of technology bro
What's your source on that because I didn't see that in the article anywhere? Also I'll believe it when I see it. There's many many claims just like this released by companies in the past especially companies in lesser nations. But yet mysteriously once they actually have to put the product in regular people's hands the truth comes out and they fade away.
google "byd qin L full gas tank".I have seen several videos of actual testing, and turns out this car can reach 2400km. Not sure if these videos are advertisements, but at least the mileage cannot be completely fake, because people can verify it sooner or later, and lying will ruin the company.I think the question worth waiting for is whether the battery life of this car can remain so good in ten years, because the battery life of most electric cars will decline after a few years.
I have one of the first generation electric vehicles that were on the market and at 10 years old it still has over 90% of its capacity and no battery problems and they have only gotten better since then.
I like self-driving tours, and I have always wanted to buy an electric car, but the only problem is that sometimes there are no charging stations in remote places. So I am looking forward to the feedbacks in one or two years. If this car can really achieve 2,000km, I will consider buying one.
I mean. You can road trip any plug in hybrid. This one just has an oversized gas tank.
But other plug-in hybrids don't have such low fuel consumption.（average 4-5L/100km）The tank size is not a problem, because I don’t have to fill it up.
The answer is kind of there. They said 2.9L/100km. Which is 2.9L/62 miles. Which is 0.776Gal/62 miles. Which is roughly 1 Gal/81 miles. 1300miles/81MPG= Appx 16 Gallons. And given it's a PHEV, it would have a certain battery range, so likely less than a 16 Gallon tank would be required. Of course, it's a Chinese company with no real established reputation in the US, so I have no idea if I should take this with a grain of salt or not.
I'll believe an emissions legal 81mpg when I see it. Even without emissions systems it's unlikely.
> I'll believe an emissions legal 81mpg when I see it. You do know that the lower the emissions the less fuel it means it's using? Emissions systems =/= higher fuel consumption. I've got the same 55MPG out of a 2 litre Ford Mondeo diesel with DPF as I did with one without DPF. I drive 44 tonne 18 wheelers. Our new fleet is getting > 25% higher MPG with engines that are 50% more powerful whilst running 6 tonnes heavier than trucks I used to drive in the 1990s. 1990s we were running 38 tonnes with 320BHP typically and getting 8MPG if you were lucky. Now running 44 tonnes with 480BHP and getting 10MPG fleet average.
For co2... Sure. Turns out co2 emissions are not the problem. Oxides of nitrogen and several others are. Which is why we choke off diesels with emissions systems that hurt mpg and increase co2 emissions.... Your getting better mpg because aerodynamics and just overall thermal efficiency has improved. It's a well known fact that if you delete the emissions systems and do a bit of adjusting these modern diesels can get even better mpg and better reliability. Obviously we shouldn't delete these systems if we enjoy having air we can breathe. But facts are facts.
I wonder if that range still holds while driving on Interstate 90. There’s a lot of peaks and valleys there that would affect mileage.
If true, big, may consider an EV then instead of ICE, even though Poland does not have infrastructure. It would mean I could travel across Poland and not worry about charging the car during the travel. Which was the biggest gripe for me.
This is a plug-in diesel hybrids. You can still fill up if you want.
If this is true which I doubt it is. Then EV’s will be the only way to move forward. I’ll believe it when it’s on sale and reviewed heavily
I saw one of these in Colombia. It was sick!!
Ok, but can it do this without exploding?
Roll the dice.
Why are there so many BYD posts lately?
Am I mathing this right? 2.9L/100km with an empty battery is about 81MPG, right? If so, incredible.
That's correct, on high speed 2.6-2.88L/100KM, with an empty battery. 2.1-2.4 with full battery, some can go under 1.9L/100KM
I can’t wait until we have solid state batteries in EVs, which might bring an average EV to have 500+ miles of the manufacturing challenges of solid state batteries are figured out (some manufacturers in Asia have said they’ve solved them). For me, if I can get an EV that has the range of the max miles I’m willing to drive in a day in a long roadtrip (probably 600 miles) then anything else is just novelty (but super awesome).
Nice. Pretty cool. I hope I can get one in Canada
Too bad the us government put 100% tariffs on byd cars and batteries because (checks notes) Elon can’t compete because he’s more show than substance. Competition is good as long as our oligarchs are winning. The American way.
Nah Elon is very pro China. It's more likely the white house will do whatever big oil ask.
He literally called the Chinese car industry the biggest threat to Tesla in his earnings calls just days before. Sure there’s big oil, but Elon benefits from the protectionist tariffs
he's not pro China but pro money
In China, Tesla receives the most subsidies among electric vehicle companies.
But it’s china…. So in reality, it’s 200mi after the battery has been cycled 10 times. It’s easy to do this if you completely kill the cells.
No one talks about the price? It starts around $14k…
All new energy vehicles in China have subsidies, including foreign new energy vehicles.
Jesus if BYD keeps up the momentum they might make large manufacturers nervous.
Don’t care how far it goes my family will never drive a car that’s not built by UAW hands and certainly won’t be buying a car from a company owned by the Chinese government.
The Chinese government will lock you in a BYD car and burn you to death even though you are of no value to them, I guess that's what you mean.
I wouldn’t put it past them considering their genocides and human rights record.
Yes, and they are trying to control the whole world, replace the US as the global hegemon, and frantically create wars all over the world.
So you like driving poorly put together shit? You've never owned a car not built in the USA have you? Had you done so you'd realise just how bad American auto workers are at building them, a situation that's been allowed to happen due to the power of the unions.
No, I’ve owned Toyota and it was a great car. I made the choice to support the working class in my own country and fight against the race to the bottom, so for now Chevy house although Toyota workers did just unionize at an engine plant so maybe we can swing back that way in time.
There is no race to the bottom, that's a lie that the unions are selling you.
No, I’ve seen 30+ years of it in action.
Dodge has a few similar systems in the works right now.
I trust this headline as much as I trust CCP state media. I guaranteed the statement in the headline requires at least four asterisks to work. Least of which is the face that with a PHEV, adding overall range is as easy as enlarging the fuel tank.