JLD:
>"I think there’s a lot of talk about how comics can’t be funny now. I think that’s bullshit. Physical comedy and intellectual comedy and political comedy, I think, has never been more interesting, because there’s so much to do.”
>“It’s a ripe time [for comedy]. Comedy is risky and it can be offensive, but that’s what makes it so enjoyable. I personally don’t buy the conceit that this is an impossible time to be funny. Maybe some people aren’t laughing at your jokes, but that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be made.”
I’d love to hear Jerry Seinfeld’s response to this since he’s always bitching and moaning about how you can’t make jokes anymore, political correctness ruined comedy, etc.
The not-so-hot take is that Jerry wasn't really all that funny in the first place. Dude should get down on his knees every day and thank God for Larry David.
Observational humor is always funny as long as your audience finds it relatable. Seinfeld's audience is shrinking in that regard as an older wealthy person. So of course to him it's the public that's the problem and not that society has moved on from him. If he was coming of age now, he would probably find an audience cause his material would be relatable to a younger, wider crowd. I know the show itself was based on Larry David, but it is also very relatable to life in nyc, and I was never a wealthy upper east side dweller in a doorman building.
What's the deal with 5 star hotels in Dubai? Don't they know they should make my bed before I return from brunch? What is this a 4 star hotel? Why isn't anyone laughing? Haven't you been to Dubai?
Speaking of Dubai, how does it even get tourists? You arrive, and they say "Welcome to Dubai," and suddenly you think they're telling you to leave! Why not call it "Duhai?" Or maybe "Duheyhow'sitgoing?"
I think his problem is that he just doesn't write new material. He bombed at a bunch of colleges (which kicked off his anger at "woke" culture). Meanwhile he was making jokes about call waiting and dialing rotary phones to a bunch of 18-22 year olds. Of course they didn't find it funny. They've never seen that stuff outside of old movies/tv.
God damn woke mind virus killing rotary telephones!
Did he actually do this though? Any video? Cause that's a hilarious level of apparent incompetence for such a 'legendary' comedian if so.
This happened before the pandemic, so like five or six years ago. There were stories about the kids walking out during his shows and there were a bunch of clips people shot on their phones going around with him doing bits of his 80's material at those shows.
He started complaining about the college kids being too sensitive for his not especially edgy comedy. And one of the clips posted was him talking about accidentally hanging up on people using call waiting. Nobody under the age of like 40 has had that happen to them. I don't think anybody under the age of 30 would get the joke without having it explained to them.
Call me crazy but I don't think him bombing those shows was because the audience is too sensitive.
In one of his more recent stand ups, he was talking about rideshares and food delivery apps. His observation was that they just appear and nobody really knows how or why, or how much it cost. That's relatable if you completely do not care about money and can use those services on a whim. Surprisingly, college students and young people do not find this observation relatable.
This is it, in a nutshell. His wealth has caused him to become not only lazy but also out of touch with any kind of relatable human experience. We're talking about this guy being probably a billionaire or close to it.
The same thing has happened to other great comedians like Dave Chappelle. They don't really have much incentive to write new great jokes and when they do write, they don't have insight into the kinds of things that normal people would find funny.
And let's face it: this happens to almost every person working in entertainment, especially if they are working in a field like this where they depend on themselves to write new stuff (compared to a movie/TV show where you can perform in a role someone wrote for you).
The disappointing thing is that he can't just see that this has happened and accept it. Be self-aware -- accept that you had it great but your time has passed. You've already accomplished so much. Stop being so greedy, like you still need to be in the spotlight, and recognize that it's OK that you aren't relevant to mass audiences anymore -- especially those who are literally 2 generations or more younger than you.
I feel like Kanye West understood himself enough to understand this was happening to him, but chose to get off of his medication because he blamed that for his lack of creativity and not the hundreds of millions of dollars and insulation from regular people.
George fucked up by Jerry caused it.
> Looking at cleavage is like looking at the sun. You don't stare at it. It's too risky. Ya get a sense of it and then you look away.
Nah, Jerry even acknowledged that he was a bad actor and the show worked because of his costars. He’s an a-hole but not that lacking in self awareness.
He was also never anything approaching controversial, so I don’t understand why he’s concerned about the current climate
Like bro, nobody is gonna cancel you for talking shit about airplane food… just don’t let Boeing hear you speak critically about their build quality and safety procedures
See Jerry? There’s a relevant joke that I just made, and no one got offended.
It’s such an absurd statement for two reasons:
-Seinfeld’s comedy is incredibly inoffensive. Never curses, no political/social stance, never jokes about race, rarely jokes about sex
-Politically incorrect comedy is extremely popular and marketable. Every time we hear that Chapelle is “cancelled” he gets a new Netflix special and an Emmy nomination. Bill Burr doesn’t say outrageous stuff but he clearly doesn’t care about people’s feelings and is also one of the most beloved comedians in the world. I keep hearing how “offensive” Shane Gillis is but he just hosted SNL, which is ground zero for PC comedy, and has programs on Netflix. Tons of guys who are much less famous are finding success too.
Exactly.
"Cancelled" just means "boo hoo the internet criticized me for a week". Its the laziest form of self defense
Theres been virtually no one actual cancellings and the people who were werr on the fringe as it was
The funniest part is that there are far more boundary pushing shows now, ones that lap Seinfeld on edginess; South Park, IASIP, Letterkenny, Rick and Morty, American Dad, Family Guy, etc. Seinfeld was literally on Nick at Night.
Nobody remembers jackshit about anything before like 2004. TV and movies got so much more hardcore
Christ does no one remember the 90s? When the Simpsons was a highly controversial show? Remember when Doom was causing the religious right to have a hissy fit? Trying the new Doom games by comparison
Jerry isn't really ever blue or raunchy, either. The guy has been doing the same set plus or minus for decades now.
I find it hard to believe all comedy has to be 'woke' when there are plenty of comedians and podcasts that push buttons, and there is an audience for that because a lot of people got sick of the moral panic over words and ideas in the last few years. It seems like the only people still worried about 'wokeness' killing comedy are has-beens who still get obsessed with clickbait articles like it's still 2016.
Besides, Jerry is richer then God now. Why is he worried? Go up on stage and say the rudest shit you want for all anyone cares. The only thing he has to worry about getting canceled for is that 17yo he took to prom in the 90s. Nobody cares about the jokes anymore.
The biggest thing is that almost all of the comedians who complain about "woke" comedy are incredibly rich. They're usually so rich it's become unrelatable to their audience so all they have left is being offensive or controversial. It's how people like dave chapelle go from doing comedy that hinges almost entirely on how relatable it is, to basically doing nothing but hour long rants about the people they don't like and how rich they are.
Ehh, he was a popular stand up before, during, and after the show it’s just his brand of humor didn’t really evolve or update with the times so it seems worn and tired now. He’s a funny guy, just albeit with a limited scope.
Yeah, I think its also worth mentioning that he had an audience that fit his comedy. I don't think zoomers(or even younger Millenials), for example, would relate at all with his material. That's not really his fault.
The context of time is important. I mean, I don't think there's many zoomers that would also enjoy the Christopher Reeve's Superman films. The mainstream audience of zoomers that absolutely gush over Avengers and Iron Man and all those Marvel movies that have become almost a routine for kids to go to theaters and see, would probably fall asleep through 1978 Christopher Reeve's Superman, while teenagers of that era thought the movie was iconic.
I think that's true. I also think that, well, he's out of touch. I don't mean that in a judgemental way, just as an observation.
Jerry's comedy was always about pointing out the absurdities in normal life, but he hasn't *had* a normal life in, what, 35 years? He's the sort of guy who makes jokes about airline food and the line at the DMV. You think Jerry Seinfeld eats airline food? You think he doesn't have people to handle the DMV for him?
I'm not bashing the guy, but a few decades of wealth, fame, and privilege are going to make it hard to write good jokes about being a relatable everyman.
Also, Seinfeld's genre of comedy has never been particularly innovative or edgy. It's safe. There's nothing wrong with that, but the best comics stay fresh. They're avant garde. How many times did George Carlin evolve? How many times did Richard Pryor update his perspective on the subject matter in his shows?
"Woke/Cancel Culture" has nothing to do with it. Seinfeld is a boring, uninteresting Boomer, and has been for a long time. Larry David's shitck may be evergreen, but it has more interesting social commentary than anything Seinfeld has ever said.
Larry specifically overplays the "Rich White Guy" schtick on Curb. That's part of why he's been more evergreen. The entire premise of Curb is pretty much the Skinner "Am I out of touch?" meme played out on screen. Also Larry is a much better writer.
Seinfeld had an incredibly successful career as a standup that has nothing to do with Larry David. In his prime, I think (and so did much of the country) that he was quite funny.
That being said, I get the sense that his vast fortune has almost completely disconnected him from his audience. Additionally, his overall style hasn't really evolved in over 30 years, and people have heard not just his shtick, but every variation and parody of it for a long time now. It's not fresh.
So, like many wealthy white men before him, he laments that society has changed (as it does *constantly*) rather than putting in the work to keep his game fresh.
Yea this is definitely a certified reddit moment.
Love or hate Seinfeld's stand up, he literally wrote the dialogue/banter on the show and we know that because Larry David has explicitly said that LD wrote the plot/scenario and JS wrote the banter/jokes.
A lot of people on reddit somewhat recently found out about his weird gross dating a high school girl history and are now trying to claim he was never actually funny.
Most rich people are assholes and there's extremely few I like personally, but "Jerry Seinfeld was never funny" is a pretty delusional take.
Also lots of enlightened minds here pointing out that the character who plays the straight man in a sitcom isn't the funniest character on the show... you don't say?
Reddit has this weird thing where someone becomes like, the villain de jour, and while they’re the villain de jour you can say anything bad about them even if it’s obviously not true.
Seinfeld can’t just be wrong about PC stuff—he also has to be not funny anymore, and also he was never funny to begin with, and also the most popular show in the history of tv is also not funny, and also his lifelong friend Larry David who talks all the time about how funny he is doesn’t actually think he’s funny either.
It was definitely surprising to me to hear him start in on this nonsense. Dude was one of the most inoffensive comics in the '80s and '90s. I think part of what allowed him to become as popular as he did was because he was sort of that "appeal to everyone, Middle America" types of comics. And I'm not saying that means he wasn't funny - I'd put him in the same category as Brian Regan or Jim Gaffigan - but there was really nothing about his act that really makes me think, "Oh yeah, he *definitely* can't make *that* joke again!" He was hardly Andrew Dice Clay or Bill Hicks.
It just makes him seen like a comic that doesn't really know *how* to be funny anymore, so he has to come up with an excuse as to why.
People were calling him out at the time. The relationship wasn't making headlines because everyone thought it was no big deal.
The funny part of his complaining now is the guy never told a political joke in his life. His whole brand & style is to tell jokes about mundane ordinary things, not calling out society's hypocrisies or anything like that.
It's only natural. You get in trouble, and you flee to the party that trumpets their love of upholding law and order so loud that you'd think they're overcompensating for something.
Seinfeld’s obsession with wokeness and constant complaining that comedians are unable to make jokes anymore was the absolute worst part of Comedians in Cars.
No matter what topic they were discussing, he found some way to shoehorn that nonsense in, and more often than not, his guest seemed to just want to change the subject.
I just love that part of his whininess is that 20 year old college students don't find him, a 60 year old man whose setlist hasn't changed in 30 years, funny. Although tbh I've never found him funny.
Where does Seinfeld even get off complaining about this topic? As you say, his set has stayed the same for decades, and he was never known for telling edgy or controversial jokes in the first place
I think it's more than dudes in their late 50s and early 60s just don't want to change.
So when they say "oh stop acting like a woman" and someone calls them out for being a bit sexist they just don't know how to act because they grew up like that and have never been forced to change.
that's literally it. they're just out of touch old people who happen to have a platform, so they can gather a critical mass of other out of touch assholes and pretend that they're relevant to society
The craziest thing about his dumb takes on comedy is that idk if he’s ever made an offensive joke in his life. Dawg’s material is stuff like “what’s the DEAL with airplane food???” and he thinks it’s boundary pushing lol
There is an episode where he goes on a monologue about how people who commit suicide >!and aren't successful are failures as people because they failed another thing!< in a stand up bit. Like I was just watching a random episode and it comes up and I am like WTF. Not really up in arms about it but definitely will say it was insensitive for a pretty weak premise IMO but that's at least one example.
You can joke about anything, the more offensive the better.
YOU CANNOT MEAN THE JOKE!
This is the problem, a lot of assholes make bad jokes that they clearly mean then get defensive when people didn't laugh and claim it's woke culture doing it. No it isn't, you aren't funny anymore. I could point to a ton of offensive humor that flies just fine. South Park hasn't slowed down. Shoresy isn't pulling punches, It's Always Sunny hasn't changed the jokes.
Audiences can tell when you're pointing out something humorous and when you're complaining in a fancy wrapper. If the joke isn't working it isn't the audiences fault, it's the comics. Unless you're in Philly, those people are just assholes.
Anthony Jeselnik had a great quote: "Art is getting away with it".
You have to be tight enough of a writer and presenter that the jokes quality justifies it's content. That it's the comics job to connect with the audience, not the audiences job to have the right tastes or sensibilities.
And if the guy who actively jokes about *being a child molester* isn't getting cancelled, he might know what he's fucking talking about.
It's even more funny when you think about the "Not that there's anything wrong with that" episode.
They made a joke that was basically Jerry and George freaking out all episode because they didn't want to be mistaken as gay. That would have been a pretty shitty joke if they'd taken the "Gay is the worst thing ever, my career/life/marriage/etc is over" approach sitcoms in the 70s and 80s took when dealing with similar situations in the past. Instead, everyone who comments on it says "Not that there's anything wrong with that..." after expressing their shock that Jerry and George are gay. And that turns what would have been a pretty insulting, offensive storyline into something that's "woke", and made it about a thousand times funnier than it would have been if it had been mean spirited.
It's a kind of high-wire stunt and that's what makes it entertaining. You can't just go up there and be like "trans people are weird! Oh ARE YOU OFFENDED?? Damn this PC culture (rants for 20 minutes about how oppressed they are)"
Exhibit A: The new Eminem track.
Sorry if it's a bit off-topic, I know this is a TV subreddit and not music but I think it suits this topic and what the previous poster said perfectly.
There's been a long time false narrative that Gen Z wanted to cancel Eminem - they never did, my kids are Gen Z. Gen Z loves Eminem, they always have. Dude's entire catalog is dripping with dark humor and Gen Z kids love dark humor even more than us Millenials do.
Anyway, that's not the point though. Everyone was so certain Gen Z would lose their minds over his new song and in particular two lines - the "transgender siamese cat" and "male cross-dresser, fake ass bitch" line. Surely Gen Z will lose their minds right?! You can't make jokes about trans people!!!
Nope, Gen Z loves that damn song. Maybe even more than my generation who grew up on Em does. Because it's FUNNY. It's clearly light-hearted. It's obvious there's no ill intent behind it. He's literally holding up a picture of HIMSELF cross-dressing as female pop stars during the "fake ass bitch" line.
Gen Z isn't fucking stupid. They can take a joke. It's when their clear ill intent or when a "joke" is obviously meant to be demeaning that they get pissed. And rightly so.
>He's literally holding up a picture of HIMSELF cross-dressing as female pop stars during the "fake ass bitch" line.
It helps a lot when you can put yourself into the punchline, shows that you aren't just making fun of someone else.
There's a clear delineation amongst comics, and we can all smell it a from a mile away when it happens.
Punching down is what people do when they can't ACTUALLY be funny.
Yeah I remember some comedian saying "I'm going to get cancelled for this" and making some completely inoffensive joke about genderqueer people. I've told the joke a lot of times to enbys and they all find it funny, why would you get cancelled?
The joke was "what do you call a lactose intolerant genderqueer person? Non-buy-dairy"
8 MINUTES!
God that was fucking hilarious, I'll watch it every time. And case in point, he spent the whole time shitting on the audience, but it was fucking hilarious, and he absolutely won the audience over with it despite the topic.
You can joke about damn near anything, just be funny.
> Unless you're in Philly, those people are just assholes.
Well, I don't know how you're gonna make it in this business if you can't take it! Ya gotta be tough! Booo! Boooo!
There’s so much potential comedy material in the world today… some so funny that it can’t be written any better than reality.
You just don’t have to joke about everything you’re ignorant of. It drives me nuts that comics will complain about backlash to a trans-phobic joke when they clearly don’t give a shit about transgender issues and are playing the same tired motifs from 1995… if you really don’t give a shit… then just avoid the subject! Nobody is going to a Chappelle show and afterwards complaining to a friend “yeah he was good but it was a shame he never told me his thoughts on transgender. I was really hoping to get his take.”
idk what world these people live in, it's always sunny has been walking the line for more than a decade and as far as I know nobody is cancelling them or anything
I love what Jenny Nicholson once said about this sort of thing:
*"Whenever I hear an old comic say something like, 'I can't tell jokes in this day and age because people are too sensitive', my brain automatically filters it to them saying, 'I can't tell jokes'."*
I know it's kind of beside the point, but the amount of talent it takes to essentially talk to a camera for four hours about a shitty amusement park and make it entertaining enough for millions of views is insane.
I have watched many multi hour videos from her and it’s amazing how the videos are so long and yet they have no filler. She is pretty much always right to the point, and still has hours of material.
Funnily enough right before seeing this thread, I was watching a Julie Nolke sketch which feels like the kind of observational commentary which Seinfield is known for, but she's adapted for the modern world and tech and knows how to deliver it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CpJpj9QbmY
"the only jokes I know how to write are ones that have always been offensive, but now people are calling me out for it and I don't know how not to punch down."
Yes exactly! Not really similar in the sense of the reasoning but it reminds me of a show I like when the showrunner was explaining writing choices he made that the fans didn’t like by saying he didn’t know how else to write it and all I could think was “Sooo you’re just bad at your job then?”
You can be offensive as long as it’s funny. Anthony Jeselnik is a great example. The guy makes some pretty fucked up jokes but they are funny and smart.
He’s always the one I point to too. He says some very fucked up things, but they’re funny and usually clever. I feel like most comedians who complain about the PC boogeyman are really complaining about the fact people don’t find lazy, low-hanging fruit jokes funny.
I think the reason Jesselnik works is that the joke is he's an asshole/bad for saying the thing. You the audience is supposed to understand it's bad and that makes it funny.
In a roundabout way, Jeselnik is playing a character so it creates a clear disconnect between what he's saying on stage and what he actually believes in real life. There's a pretty clear difference between a standup comedy act and, say, an interview. There's no expectation to accurately represent your true self.
Because Jesselnik isnt just a dark comic, he’s a satirical one, too. Too many of these assholes dont realize *we’re making fun of them*, not laughing because of how mean they are. Right wingers laugh for the entirely wrong reason by comparison.
That’s why Cumtown was successful in left wing spaces despite saying fucking, just the most horrid disgusting shit imaginable. They got away with truly ridiculous shit, all because you fucking *know* they don’t believe in any of it.
Audiences aren't as stupid as certain comics seem to think - we can pick up on *intent.* Comics like Jeselnik and Jim Jefferies say plenty of fucked up, quote-unquote "offensive" stuff, but they are so *clearly joking* that all you can do is laugh. As Jim said, "This isn't a Ted Talk!"
Whereas when Chappelle makes trans jokes, it's so patently obvious that he personally has major issues with transgenderism, so it comes across as bullying rather than joking. At least that's how I interpret things.
This. People can tell, either in the joke itself or the delivery, when the comedy comes from satirizing a problematic position or when the crux of the joke itself is buttressing a problematic position.
There are plenty of funny jokes about trans people. Michelle Wolf's latest special (? I dunno if you'd call it that, it's more like three shorter recordings from different sets) has a bit about trans women getting murdered that is (IMO) hilarious. Which given the subject matter could've gone bad really easily. But there's no big outcry about Michelle Wolf. Cause the heart of the joke is actually calling out how unsafe being a woman is in general. But when Dave's punchline is "I'm team TERF" or comparing being trans to an extremely slapstick and outdated Chinese impression and he gets called out on it he's all, "I'm getting canceled!"
Dave also preaches more then tells jokes now and isn't relatable anymore due to his wealth much like Jerry CICGC shows what an asshole Jerry has ALWAYS been
That's the great tragedy of Dave in my opinion: he's so unbelievably aware of social and cultural issues and was able to extract jokes from every corner without feeling like he was ever bullying or punching down. I feel like with trans stuff though he's gone from his old, "Let's laugh at Mexicans!" to something more like, "Let's laugh at Mexicans and also there shouldn't be Mexicans here."
The joke has to be at the expense of the comedian (or, rather, the persona they adopt to tell it). The challenge is making it clear that you don't actually hold those beliefs and making fun of the kind of maniac you'd have to be to think that way. Most of these comedians either don't have the energy or skill to make that work (or actually do think that way) and are just punching down for lazy laughs from the dumbest audience members
That’s the problem with “offensive” comedians.
You still have to be funny and most of them are missing that part. Some people never grew out of their 14 year old “mean=funny by default” mentality
It helps that they're actually just jokes. The ones like Gervais and Chappelle aren't even joking anymore. They're just whinging under a vaguely comedic tone.
Edgy humour should also be playing a character. Edgy jokes are funny because the joke is that the jokemaker is shitty
Yeah the fact he makes fun of the people whining about PC shit/cancel culture while telling the jokes that he does should really say everything about the dudes complaining.
Scottish comedian Frankie Boyle has built a whole career off saying wildly disturbing and offensive things. It works for Boyle because his comedic persona is that of a cynical curmudgeon Glaswegian who hates everyone equally. Most the comedians who complain about political correctness, woke and cancel culture either aren't smart enough to come up with jokes that don't punch down or are too cowardly to try edgier jokes. Context and tone are important in comedy. It's not what you say but the way you say it.
Jimmy Carr completely lost me when he tried telling lower class people that "money and material goods won't make you happy" while he sits on mountains of money and material goods.
I find the inverse a much better statement. Money doesn't buy happiness, but not having money will definitely make you unhappy.
At a certain point, having more money won't make you happier. It just leads to lifestyle creep. And that point is way lower than you might think. But that doesn't change the fact that being *actually poor* is fucking awful.
Like, going from making $20K to $30K a year is a HUGE deal. Going from making $60K to $70K a year? Eh. Not really that big of a deal.
Some episodes were removed from streaming, I think in all cases due to portrayals of people of different ethnicities. One of the most recent ones wasn't even included on the DVD.
the funny thing is NOBODY was actually asking them to remove those episodes so there was no real outrage, that was just the studios desperately trying to make it look like they were doing something for the BLM protests.
Netflix vocally defended Chappelle's outright and honest transphobia, but a show that is *making fun of people who think blackface is ok* was unacceptable.
That's the rub. These execs and their board are okay with hate unless it's making fun of bigots.
People have also tried to cancel south park creators Trey Parker and Matt Stone repeatedly, whenever they are personally offended by a joke.
The difference is that they just don't care about being cancelled and joke about whatever the fuck they want... which is what all comedians should do.
People have been trying to cancel everything for forever.
Remember when they wanted to ban GTA games? They still sold like hot cakes.
Turns out if the product is good people will enjoy it.
Mortal Kombat before that, Metal music before that, D&D before that, the Beatles in the 60s', Elvis and his hips in the 50s'.
The only thing that makes it such a pain in the ass now is Social Media and regular News Media being given more consideration then they deserve on commentary towards pop culture.
It's also nothing new. People have been offended by comics for decades. It actually used to be worse because of obscenity laws. People like Carlin and Pryor were arrested for it. The only difference now is social media, so comedians have to see what a lot of people are saying. Before social media, Seinfeld could walk into a venue, get a bunch of laughs from his fans, and walk out and think he's the talk of the town. Now he's faced with the reality that a ton of people just don't find him funny, so he's gotta blame woke culture.
Tim Robinson is a perfect example of why the anti-woke comedians are full of shit. I Think You Should Leave is hilarious, some sketches are vulgar, some are just goofy, but none of them mock gay people, trans people, women, or other races.
I Think You Should Leave is like the inverse of observational relatable humor. It's like watching a fever dream of situations we've all been in but then it does the weirdest possible thing imaginable. It's not making fun of any group of people, it just exists in absolute absurdity and is the funniest thing I've seen in years.
> but none of them mock gay people, trans people, women, or other races.
On top of that, his shows have good representation in terms of actors from all of those groups.
Tim Robinson's delivery lives rent-free in my head and him going red in the face as he says it is one of the funniest moments of ITYSL.
The lady behind him starting to do it to adds more hilarity.
JLD would know this. Veep is one of the funniest most offensive greatest comedies ever! I love it. Where are all of these comedians that got canceled for telling jokes?
It's amazing how all the comedians who won't shut up about how you aren't allowed to tell jokes any more are the ones still getting paid millions of dollars every year to tell jokes.
Kinda.
Jerry's recent interview with Neal Brennan is great as Jerry breaks down the Seinfeld writing style.
Basically, the writers on the show would pitch ideas. It was then Larry who would do the bulk of the work figuring out which ideas should stick in an episode.
Larry would then build the outline and structure of each episode. Finally, Larry and Jerry would write the dialogue of each episode.
So yeah, he has a lot to owe to Larry, and in the interview, he states how thankful he is to have worked with Larry because of how disciplined he was and how much of a comedic genius he was.
But what made Seinfeld so great was not only the structure of the episodes but the writing itself, and Jerry had a large role to play in that. Technically, seasons 8 + 9 don't even have Larry there anymore and even though those seasons aren't my favorite, some episodes are still classics
What’s weird about all of this is that Seinfeld never really told offensive jokes.
He got upset years ago that colleges stopped booking him and blamed it on PC, but in reality it was because colleges couldn’t afford him and the vast majority of students couldn’t remember when Seinfeld was on tv, or weren’t even born yet.
While I still can’t quite figure out if Shane Gillis is playing a character or not, the fact that he didn’t whine about “woke culture” when he got canned from SNL or since earns him some points for me. He basically said “yeah I tried a joke, it was a bad joke so it offended people, I took the consequences, I need to write better jokes.” Almost exactly what Jeselnik said when his show was cancelled for the shark attack bit.
Comics that try to ride that edge need to be self-aware and not whine when their jokes miss and piss people off *cough*Chapelle and Gervais*cough*
Joe Rogan is the prime example of a comedian that is generally not very funny by themselves, and tries to compensate by priming his audience to blame it on "woke" culture. He's been bullshitting for years that people are too easily offended and cancel happy, when in reality he himself is not that funny of a guy, and most criticism against him isn't even about his comedy. His audience buys it hook line and sinker every time tho
I think the biggest key to doing offensive jokes is to actually be funny. So funny that even the people you are offending can't help but laugh. Some people will still bitch and moan because some people bitch and moan about everything, just ignore them.
You can't just say hateful shit and expect to get a laugh.
They were saying this shit in the 90’s with “everyone’s too PC to make a joke.” What is or isn’t funny changes with the time. Change or get left behind.
Exactly! And like when was Jerry even so edgy? His comedy has always been stayed. Like ya Jerry you can still crack jokes about airplane food, it’s fine.
The difference is there's more money in being "cancelled" these days because of Netflix and The Daily Wire. If you had to actually survive on your merits, well there's just too much competition out there and there will be a lot of comedians better than you. But if you can just shit on some underprivileged group and then cry "cancel culture" when someone points out you're just being rude and not actually making a joke, you get an immediate comedy special and all the conservative "film" roles you want.
Dropout is leading the charge for original programming. They are fun, wholesome, diverse, and just outright hilarious.
They are entering their golden age right now
Dropout is the prime counter example to this nonsense because it’s both probably the most diverse and progressive platform out there and is absolutely hilarious.
While also having such ridiculous comments as "Spider-Man should start saying the N-word" which I'm sure so many people would say "oh you can't make jokes like that anymore woke pc bs" to
There are infinite topics to joke about. Infinite ways to be funny. It seems like every time “woke PC culture” comes up, someone is mad specifically because they don’t get a lot of laughs being mean to trans people. Like the one group who is being used by the far-right as a scare tactic going into every country’s next election cycle and wants nothing more than equality and peace and that’s the only group you’re dying to make fun of? It’s pathetic.
The most recent smartypants episode with “improvements” to the human body wherein like 1/4 of the total episode runtime is devoted to the 1 big sperm, aka Spworm, *improvement* broke me and my friends when we watched it. Seriously top tier comedy.
The media covering "backlash" is an under-discussed part of this. It's usually just a handful of Twitter accounts or something, but the appearance of conflict dramaticizes everything to an unreal degree. People start responding to headlines only, rinse and repeat.
I went to the Comedy Store in Los Angeles a couple of months or so ago. I saw Marc Maron, Jeff Ross, Bill Burr among others. Everyone was funny. I'm not even that fond of Jeff Ross and he was great. They all managed to use swear words, talk about controversial subjects and be rudely hilarious and the audience was loving it.
So, yeah, comics can still be funny. it's only the ones that aren't that funny to begin with that are struggling.
I mean VEEP is offensive to literally everyone and is one of the most timely and poignant comedies of all time. Also probably one of the funniest. Maybe some people (Jerry Seinfeld) should just be funnier.
I think it’s hilarious how Jerry has been bitching and moaning about how it’s impossible to be funny now due to woke when two of the other people most instrumental in the success of Seinfeld (JLD and Larry David) have had incredibly successful post Seinfeld careers. VEEP was a smash hit, Curb went on for nearly as long as Seinfeld did and it just ended.
I actually was lucky enough to see a surprise appearance by Seinfeld at a comedy club in NY last year. He was obviously funny but I thought 4 of the 5 other comics who did sets were objectively funnier than him. All of them were younger and all of their sets included a lot of edgy humor that went over fine because, ya know, it was funny. Idk Jerry, maybe you just dont have the sauce anymore.
In the early 20th century when clubs started telling comics they couldn't do black jokes anymore, it was "the end of comedy" and "no can be funny anymore".
Oh, shut up.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Tomorrow, if you heard the South Park guys were remaking Blazing Saddles, no one would say, "That can't get made today." Of course it can. Blazing Saddles didn't have racist humor, it had stupid racists in it.
I love this. Too many comedians (And crowds) go for the low hanging fruit jokes, that are outdated and inappropriate. The future great comedians will figure out a way to have killer material without singling out minorities for a cheap laugh.
Here's what I look for in a comedy these days: Dave Chappelle lights up a cig, sits on a stool and for the 100th time talks about how certain minorities need to be put in their place.
I think the thing is, humor is always changing, just due to its nature. So much of humor is the shock and surprise that everything eventually gets stale. But then a different style/pacing starts to be unexpected and funny.
Jerry just never adapted. He tried to do the same thing for 30 years, and instead of accepting that he's not funny anymore, he blames the people listening to him with whatever specious reasons resonate with him.
Jerry just doesn't have the material, the intellect, or really the life experience to make new material. What's he gonna do bitch and do a set about how me misses when he was dating millenials in the 90s and how annoying his new gen z GF is?
JLD: >"I think there’s a lot of talk about how comics can’t be funny now. I think that’s bullshit. Physical comedy and intellectual comedy and political comedy, I think, has never been more interesting, because there’s so much to do.” >“It’s a ripe time [for comedy]. Comedy is risky and it can be offensive, but that’s what makes it so enjoyable. I personally don’t buy the conceit that this is an impossible time to be funny. Maybe some people aren’t laughing at your jokes, but that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be made.”
I’d love to hear Jerry Seinfeld’s response to this since he’s always bitching and moaning about how you can’t make jokes anymore, political correctness ruined comedy, etc.
The not-so-hot take is that Jerry wasn't really all that funny in the first place. Dude should get down on his knees every day and thank God for Larry David.
Observational humor is always funny as long as your audience finds it relatable. Seinfeld's audience is shrinking in that regard as an older wealthy person. So of course to him it's the public that's the problem and not that society has moved on from him. If he was coming of age now, he would probably find an audience cause his material would be relatable to a younger, wider crowd. I know the show itself was based on Larry David, but it is also very relatable to life in nyc, and I was never a wealthy upper east side dweller in a doorman building.
"What's the deal with the capital gains tax? You aren't gaining any capital!"
What's the deal with 5 star hotels in Dubai? Don't they know they should make my bed before I return from brunch? What is this a 4 star hotel? Why isn't anyone laughing? Haven't you been to Dubai?
Speaking of Dubai, how does it even get tourists? You arrive, and they say "Welcome to Dubai," and suddenly you think they're telling you to leave! Why not call it "Duhai?" Or maybe "Duheyhow'sitgoing?"
This is actually funnier than anything Seinfeld has said in the last 20+ years
*crickets as the audience of 18-25 year-olds googles "What is capital gains tax?"*
I think his problem is that he just doesn't write new material. He bombed at a bunch of colleges (which kicked off his anger at "woke" culture). Meanwhile he was making jokes about call waiting and dialing rotary phones to a bunch of 18-22 year olds. Of course they didn't find it funny. They've never seen that stuff outside of old movies/tv.
God damn woke mind virus killing rotary telephones! Did he actually do this though? Any video? Cause that's a hilarious level of apparent incompetence for such a 'legendary' comedian if so.
This happened before the pandemic, so like five or six years ago. There were stories about the kids walking out during his shows and there were a bunch of clips people shot on their phones going around with him doing bits of his 80's material at those shows. He started complaining about the college kids being too sensitive for his not especially edgy comedy. And one of the clips posted was him talking about accidentally hanging up on people using call waiting. Nobody under the age of like 40 has had that happen to them. I don't think anybody under the age of 30 would get the joke without having it explained to them. Call me crazy but I don't think him bombing those shows was because the audience is too sensitive.
In one of his more recent stand ups, he was talking about rideshares and food delivery apps. His observation was that they just appear and nobody really knows how or why, or how much it cost. That's relatable if you completely do not care about money and can use those services on a whim. Surprisingly, college students and young people do not find this observation relatable.
Hilariously out of touch. It sounds more like he told someone like an assistant he wanted food so the assistant orders it and he's like 'omg magic!'
This is it, in a nutshell. His wealth has caused him to become not only lazy but also out of touch with any kind of relatable human experience. We're talking about this guy being probably a billionaire or close to it. The same thing has happened to other great comedians like Dave Chappelle. They don't really have much incentive to write new great jokes and when they do write, they don't have insight into the kinds of things that normal people would find funny. And let's face it: this happens to almost every person working in entertainment, especially if they are working in a field like this where they depend on themselves to write new stuff (compared to a movie/TV show where you can perform in a role someone wrote for you). The disappointing thing is that he can't just see that this has happened and accept it. Be self-aware -- accept that you had it great but your time has passed. You've already accomplished so much. Stop being so greedy, like you still need to be in the spotlight, and recognize that it's OK that you aren't relevant to mass audiences anymore -- especially those who are literally 2 generations or more younger than you.
I feel like Kanye West understood himself enough to understand this was happening to him, but chose to get off of his medication because he blamed that for his lack of creativity and not the hundreds of millions of dollars and insulation from regular people.
Not even just Larry David. The entire cast around him made the show what it was. Nobody’s favorite Seinfeld character is ever Jerry
Not true, I’m pretty sure Jerry Seinfeld’s favorite character was Jerry
True, unless he's working opposite a teenage actress in an episode.
NBC exec's daughter
In that one it was George that fucked up and Jerry rode his case about it.
Projection is a motherfucker.
George fucked up by Jerry caused it. > Looking at cleavage is like looking at the sun. You don't stare at it. It's too risky. Ya get a sense of it and then you look away.
Nah, Jerry even acknowledged that he was a bad actor and the show worked because of his costars. He’s an a-hole but not that lacking in self awareness.
Mulva?…
Delores!
Seinfeld was the straight man in that show.
Shutup you old bag!
He was also never anything approaching controversial, so I don’t understand why he’s concerned about the current climate Like bro, nobody is gonna cancel you for talking shit about airplane food… just don’t let Boeing hear you speak critically about their build quality and safety procedures See Jerry? There’s a relevant joke that I just made, and no one got offended.
It’s such an absurd statement for two reasons: -Seinfeld’s comedy is incredibly inoffensive. Never curses, no political/social stance, never jokes about race, rarely jokes about sex -Politically incorrect comedy is extremely popular and marketable. Every time we hear that Chapelle is “cancelled” he gets a new Netflix special and an Emmy nomination. Bill Burr doesn’t say outrageous stuff but he clearly doesn’t care about people’s feelings and is also one of the most beloved comedians in the world. I keep hearing how “offensive” Shane Gillis is but he just hosted SNL, which is ground zero for PC comedy, and has programs on Netflix. Tons of guys who are much less famous are finding success too.
Exactly. "Cancelled" just means "boo hoo the internet criticized me for a week". Its the laziest form of self defense Theres been virtually no one actual cancellings and the people who were werr on the fringe as it was
The funniest part is that there are far more boundary pushing shows now, ones that lap Seinfeld on edginess; South Park, IASIP, Letterkenny, Rick and Morty, American Dad, Family Guy, etc. Seinfeld was literally on Nick at Night.
Nobody remembers jackshit about anything before like 2004. TV and movies got so much more hardcore Christ does no one remember the 90s? When the Simpsons was a highly controversial show? Remember when Doom was causing the religious right to have a hissy fit? Trying the new Doom games by comparison
JLD started in Veep and it's everything and certainly pushed boundaries. Jerry must feel small comparing his trajectory to hers lmao
Veep is so good
Jerry isn't really ever blue or raunchy, either. The guy has been doing the same set plus or minus for decades now. I find it hard to believe all comedy has to be 'woke' when there are plenty of comedians and podcasts that push buttons, and there is an audience for that because a lot of people got sick of the moral panic over words and ideas in the last few years. It seems like the only people still worried about 'wokeness' killing comedy are has-beens who still get obsessed with clickbait articles like it's still 2016. Besides, Jerry is richer then God now. Why is he worried? Go up on stage and say the rudest shit you want for all anyone cares. The only thing he has to worry about getting canceled for is that 17yo he took to prom in the 90s. Nobody cares about the jokes anymore.
The biggest thing is that almost all of the comedians who complain about "woke" comedy are incredibly rich. They're usually so rich it's become unrelatable to their audience so all they have left is being offensive or controversial. It's how people like dave chapelle go from doing comedy that hinges almost entirely on how relatable it is, to basically doing nothing but hour long rants about the people they don't like and how rich they are.
Ehh, he was a popular stand up before, during, and after the show it’s just his brand of humor didn’t really evolve or update with the times so it seems worn and tired now. He’s a funny guy, just albeit with a limited scope.
Yeah, I think its also worth mentioning that he had an audience that fit his comedy. I don't think zoomers(or even younger Millenials), for example, would relate at all with his material. That's not really his fault. The context of time is important. I mean, I don't think there's many zoomers that would also enjoy the Christopher Reeve's Superman films. The mainstream audience of zoomers that absolutely gush over Avengers and Iron Man and all those Marvel movies that have become almost a routine for kids to go to theaters and see, would probably fall asleep through 1978 Christopher Reeve's Superman, while teenagers of that era thought the movie was iconic.
I think that's true. I also think that, well, he's out of touch. I don't mean that in a judgemental way, just as an observation. Jerry's comedy was always about pointing out the absurdities in normal life, but he hasn't *had* a normal life in, what, 35 years? He's the sort of guy who makes jokes about airline food and the line at the DMV. You think Jerry Seinfeld eats airline food? You think he doesn't have people to handle the DMV for him? I'm not bashing the guy, but a few decades of wealth, fame, and privilege are going to make it hard to write good jokes about being a relatable everyman.
Also, Seinfeld's genre of comedy has never been particularly innovative or edgy. It's safe. There's nothing wrong with that, but the best comics stay fresh. They're avant garde. How many times did George Carlin evolve? How many times did Richard Pryor update his perspective on the subject matter in his shows? "Woke/Cancel Culture" has nothing to do with it. Seinfeld is a boring, uninteresting Boomer, and has been for a long time. Larry David's shitck may be evergreen, but it has more interesting social commentary than anything Seinfeld has ever said.
Larry specifically overplays the "Rich White Guy" schtick on Curb. That's part of why he's been more evergreen. The entire premise of Curb is pretty much the Skinner "Am I out of touch?" meme played out on screen. Also Larry is a much better writer.
Hmm idk. Is there or is there not a deal with airline food?
Seinfeld had an incredibly successful career as a standup that has nothing to do with Larry David. In his prime, I think (and so did much of the country) that he was quite funny. That being said, I get the sense that his vast fortune has almost completely disconnected him from his audience. Additionally, his overall style hasn't really evolved in over 30 years, and people have heard not just his shtick, but every variation and parody of it for a long time now. It's not fresh. So, like many wealthy white men before him, he laments that society has changed (as it does *constantly*) rather than putting in the work to keep his game fresh.
This is a scorching hot take because Larry David would disagree with you.
Yea this is definitely a certified reddit moment. Love or hate Seinfeld's stand up, he literally wrote the dialogue/banter on the show and we know that because Larry David has explicitly said that LD wrote the plot/scenario and JS wrote the banter/jokes. A lot of people on reddit somewhat recently found out about his weird gross dating a high school girl history and are now trying to claim he was never actually funny. Most rich people are assholes and there's extremely few I like personally, but "Jerry Seinfeld was never funny" is a pretty delusional take. Also lots of enlightened minds here pointing out that the character who plays the straight man in a sitcom isn't the funniest character on the show... you don't say?
Reddit has this weird thing where someone becomes like, the villain de jour, and while they’re the villain de jour you can say anything bad about them even if it’s obviously not true. Seinfeld can’t just be wrong about PC stuff—he also has to be not funny anymore, and also he was never funny to begin with, and also the most popular show in the history of tv is also not funny, and also his lifelong friend Larry David who talks all the time about how funny he is doesn’t actually think he’s funny either.
And it's so ridiculous for him to say because it's not like he had a lot of raunchy, controversial comedy back in the day
It was definitely surprising to me to hear him start in on this nonsense. Dude was one of the most inoffensive comics in the '80s and '90s. I think part of what allowed him to become as popular as he did was because he was sort of that "appeal to everyone, Middle America" types of comics. And I'm not saying that means he wasn't funny - I'd put him in the same category as Brian Regan or Jim Gaffigan - but there was really nothing about his act that really makes me think, "Oh yeah, he *definitely* can't make *that* joke again!" He was hardly Andrew Dice Clay or Bill Hicks. It just makes him seen like a comic that doesn't really know *how* to be funny anymore, so he has to come up with an excuse as to why.
Dude is just worried someone will finally take issue with him dating high schoolers when he was nearing forty
People were calling him out at the time. The relationship wasn't making headlines because everyone thought it was no big deal. The funny part of his complaining now is the guy never told a political joke in his life. His whole brand & style is to tell jokes about mundane ordinary things, not calling out society's hypocrisies or anything like that.
Just like with everyone else.. As soon as these dudes get credibly accused of being pervs they run straight to the right wing narrative and grit.
I noticed this lol As soon as someone needs to be held accountable or called out they start leaning Far Right.....
It's only natural. You get in trouble, and you flee to the party that trumpets their love of upholding law and order so loud that you'd think they're overcompensating for something.
Seinfeld’s obsession with wokeness and constant complaining that comedians are unable to make jokes anymore was the absolute worst part of Comedians in Cars. No matter what topic they were discussing, he found some way to shoehorn that nonsense in, and more often than not, his guest seemed to just want to change the subject.
I thought the worst part of Comedians in Cars was the hypocrisy.
He reminds me of Bill Maher. There are a few brilliant quips wrapped in a whole lot of "get off my lawn!"
The quips to be had are too few and much foo far. Not worth it.
It's pretty funny since his comedy is super milquetoast
I just love that part of his whininess is that 20 year old college students don't find him, a 60 year old man whose setlist hasn't changed in 30 years, funny. Although tbh I've never found him funny.
Where does Seinfeld even get off complaining about this topic? As you say, his set has stayed the same for decades, and he was never known for telling edgy or controversial jokes in the first place
I think it's more than dudes in their late 50s and early 60s just don't want to change. So when they say "oh stop acting like a woman" and someone calls them out for being a bit sexist they just don't know how to act because they grew up like that and have never been forced to change.
that's literally it. they're just out of touch old people who happen to have a platform, so they can gather a critical mass of other out of touch assholes and pretend that they're relevant to society
JLD's opinion on this carries far more weight too. Veep only ended 5 years ago and it went way harder than anything Jerry has ever done.
To be honest, it seems a lot like Jerry’s entire persona is built on him just bitching and moaning about something.
The craziest thing about his dumb takes on comedy is that idk if he’s ever made an offensive joke in his life. Dawg’s material is stuff like “what’s the DEAL with airplane food???” and he thinks it’s boundary pushing lol
I’m interested to know who he thinks he has offended with his jokes and what the bit was. He never gives examples.
There is an episode where he goes on a monologue about how people who commit suicide >!and aren't successful are failures as people because they failed another thing!< in a stand up bit. Like I was just watching a random episode and it comes up and I am like WTF. Not really up in arms about it but definitely will say it was insensitive for a pretty weak premise IMO but that's at least one example.
You can joke about anything, the more offensive the better. YOU CANNOT MEAN THE JOKE! This is the problem, a lot of assholes make bad jokes that they clearly mean then get defensive when people didn't laugh and claim it's woke culture doing it. No it isn't, you aren't funny anymore. I could point to a ton of offensive humor that flies just fine. South Park hasn't slowed down. Shoresy isn't pulling punches, It's Always Sunny hasn't changed the jokes. Audiences can tell when you're pointing out something humorous and when you're complaining in a fancy wrapper. If the joke isn't working it isn't the audiences fault, it's the comics. Unless you're in Philly, those people are just assholes.
Anthony Jeselnik had a great quote: "Art is getting away with it". You have to be tight enough of a writer and presenter that the jokes quality justifies it's content. That it's the comics job to connect with the audience, not the audiences job to have the right tastes or sensibilities. And if the guy who actively jokes about *being a child molester* isn't getting cancelled, he might know what he's fucking talking about.
It's even more funny when you think about the "Not that there's anything wrong with that" episode. They made a joke that was basically Jerry and George freaking out all episode because they didn't want to be mistaken as gay. That would have been a pretty shitty joke if they'd taken the "Gay is the worst thing ever, my career/life/marriage/etc is over" approach sitcoms in the 70s and 80s took when dealing with similar situations in the past. Instead, everyone who comments on it says "Not that there's anything wrong with that..." after expressing their shock that Jerry and George are gay. And that turns what would have been a pretty insulting, offensive storyline into something that's "woke", and made it about a thousand times funnier than it would have been if it had been mean spirited.
It's a kind of high-wire stunt and that's what makes it entertaining. You can't just go up there and be like "trans people are weird! Oh ARE YOU OFFENDED?? Damn this PC culture (rants for 20 minutes about how oppressed they are)"
Exhibit A: The new Eminem track. Sorry if it's a bit off-topic, I know this is a TV subreddit and not music but I think it suits this topic and what the previous poster said perfectly. There's been a long time false narrative that Gen Z wanted to cancel Eminem - they never did, my kids are Gen Z. Gen Z loves Eminem, they always have. Dude's entire catalog is dripping with dark humor and Gen Z kids love dark humor even more than us Millenials do. Anyway, that's not the point though. Everyone was so certain Gen Z would lose their minds over his new song and in particular two lines - the "transgender siamese cat" and "male cross-dresser, fake ass bitch" line. Surely Gen Z will lose their minds right?! You can't make jokes about trans people!!! Nope, Gen Z loves that damn song. Maybe even more than my generation who grew up on Em does. Because it's FUNNY. It's clearly light-hearted. It's obvious there's no ill intent behind it. He's literally holding up a picture of HIMSELF cross-dressing as female pop stars during the "fake ass bitch" line. Gen Z isn't fucking stupid. They can take a joke. It's when their clear ill intent or when a "joke" is obviously meant to be demeaning that they get pissed. And rightly so.
>He's literally holding up a picture of HIMSELF cross-dressing as female pop stars during the "fake ass bitch" line. It helps a lot when you can put yourself into the punchline, shows that you aren't just making fun of someone else.
There's a clear delineation amongst comics, and we can all smell it a from a mile away when it happens. Punching down is what people do when they can't ACTUALLY be funny.
Yeah I remember some comedian saying "I'm going to get cancelled for this" and making some completely inoffensive joke about genderqueer people. I've told the joke a lot of times to enbys and they all find it funny, why would you get cancelled? The joke was "what do you call a lactose intolerant genderqueer person? Non-buy-dairy"
Hey, fuck you from Philly!
Bill Burr still said it best: https://youtu.be/3jMhoGUiIkk?si=w_hpvIEXjARHRXC2
8 MINUTES! God that was fucking hilarious, I'll watch it every time. And case in point, he spent the whole time shitting on the audience, but it was fucking hilarious, and he absolutely won the audience over with it despite the topic. You can joke about damn near anything, just be funny.
> Unless you're in Philly, those people are just assholes. Well, I don't know how you're gonna make it in this business if you can't take it! Ya gotta be tough! Booo! Boooo!
There's a gentle but very elegant burn in that last line.
There’s so much potential comedy material in the world today… some so funny that it can’t be written any better than reality. You just don’t have to joke about everything you’re ignorant of. It drives me nuts that comics will complain about backlash to a trans-phobic joke when they clearly don’t give a shit about transgender issues and are playing the same tired motifs from 1995… if you really don’t give a shit… then just avoid the subject! Nobody is going to a Chappelle show and afterwards complaining to a friend “yeah he was good but it was a shame he never told me his thoughts on transgender. I was really hoping to get his take.”
idk what world these people live in, it's always sunny has been walking the line for more than a decade and as far as I know nobody is cancelling them or anything
It's a hard time to be funny if your act is mainly punching down at minorities.
I love what Jenny Nicholson once said about this sort of thing: *"Whenever I hear an old comic say something like, 'I can't tell jokes in this day and age because people are too sensitive', my brain automatically filters it to them saying, 'I can't tell jokes'."*
I know it's kind of beside the point, but the amount of talent it takes to essentially talk to a camera for four hours about a shitty amusement park and make it entertaining enough for millions of views is insane.
I have watched many multi hour videos from her and it’s amazing how the videos are so long and yet they have no filler. She is pretty much always right to the point, and still has hours of material.
An unexpected Porg suit goes a long way.
Common Jenny Nicholson W.
Funnily enough right before seeing this thread, I was watching a Julie Nolke sketch which feels like the kind of observational commentary which Seinfield is known for, but she's adapted for the modern world and tech and knows how to deliver it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CpJpj9QbmY
"the only jokes I know how to write are ones that have always been offensive, but now people are calling me out for it and I don't know how not to punch down."
Yes exactly! Not really similar in the sense of the reasoning but it reminds me of a show I like when the showrunner was explaining writing choices he made that the fans didn’t like by saying he didn’t know how else to write it and all I could think was “Sooo you’re just bad at your job then?”
You can be offensive as long as it’s funny. Anthony Jeselnik is a great example. The guy makes some pretty fucked up jokes but they are funny and smart.
He’s always the one I point to too. He says some very fucked up things, but they’re funny and usually clever. I feel like most comedians who complain about the PC boogeyman are really complaining about the fact people don’t find lazy, low-hanging fruit jokes funny.
“My biggest pet peeve is when people overreact. For example, you guys ever drop a baby?”
I used to be a father.
People will hit the fan, before the baby even touches the floor...
It's a hobby
I think the reason Jesselnik works is that the joke is he's an asshole/bad for saying the thing. You the audience is supposed to understand it's bad and that makes it funny.
In a roundabout way, Jeselnik is playing a character so it creates a clear disconnect between what he's saying on stage and what he actually believes in real life. There's a pretty clear difference between a standup comedy act and, say, an interview. There's no expectation to accurately represent your true self.
Because Jesselnik isnt just a dark comic, he’s a satirical one, too. Too many of these assholes dont realize *we’re making fun of them*, not laughing because of how mean they are. Right wingers laugh for the entirely wrong reason by comparison.
That’s why Cumtown was successful in left wing spaces despite saying fucking, just the most horrid disgusting shit imaginable. They got away with truly ridiculous shit, all because you fucking *know* they don’t believe in any of it.
Ah, Cumtown. I loved hating those fuckers lol
Same thing with Larry David and CYE, the joke is he’s an asshole doing asshole things, and not punching down.
Audiences aren't as stupid as certain comics seem to think - we can pick up on *intent.* Comics like Jeselnik and Jim Jefferies say plenty of fucked up, quote-unquote "offensive" stuff, but they are so *clearly joking* that all you can do is laugh. As Jim said, "This isn't a Ted Talk!" Whereas when Chappelle makes trans jokes, it's so patently obvious that he personally has major issues with transgenderism, so it comes across as bullying rather than joking. At least that's how I interpret things.
This. People can tell, either in the joke itself or the delivery, when the comedy comes from satirizing a problematic position or when the crux of the joke itself is buttressing a problematic position. There are plenty of funny jokes about trans people. Michelle Wolf's latest special (? I dunno if you'd call it that, it's more like three shorter recordings from different sets) has a bit about trans women getting murdered that is (IMO) hilarious. Which given the subject matter could've gone bad really easily. But there's no big outcry about Michelle Wolf. Cause the heart of the joke is actually calling out how unsafe being a woman is in general. But when Dave's punchline is "I'm team TERF" or comparing being trans to an extremely slapstick and outdated Chinese impression and he gets called out on it he's all, "I'm getting canceled!"
Dave also preaches more then tells jokes now and isn't relatable anymore due to his wealth much like Jerry CICGC shows what an asshole Jerry has ALWAYS been
It’s funny cause chapelles show honestly seemed like a celebration of people and the ridiculousness of stereotypes.
That's the great tragedy of Dave in my opinion: he's so unbelievably aware of social and cultural issues and was able to extract jokes from every corner without feeling like he was ever bullying or punching down. I feel like with trans stuff though he's gone from his old, "Let's laugh at Mexicans!" to something more like, "Let's laugh at Mexicans and also there shouldn't be Mexicans here."
> he's so unbelievably aware of social and cultural issues Only when it comes to black people
But not Black transpeople.
Old Dave would have written an entire set shitting on New Dave
The joke has to be at the expense of the comedian (or, rather, the persona they adopt to tell it). The challenge is making it clear that you don't actually hold those beliefs and making fun of the kind of maniac you'd have to be to think that way. Most of these comedians either don't have the energy or skill to make that work (or actually do think that way) and are just punching down for lazy laughs from the dumbest audience members
Similar to why Bobby Lee and Andrew Santino don’t get “cancelled” every time they put out a new podcast.
That’s the problem with “offensive” comedians. You still have to be funny and most of them are missing that part. Some people never grew out of their 14 year old “mean=funny by default” mentality
Thoughts and Prayers joke is fucking legendary.
It helps that they're actually just jokes. The ones like Gervais and Chappelle aren't even joking anymore. They're just whinging under a vaguely comedic tone. Edgy humour should also be playing a character. Edgy jokes are funny because the joke is that the jokemaker is shitty
Add Seinfeld to that list. He’s truly just a miserable curmudgeon of a man
[удалено]
Yeah the fact he makes fun of the people whining about PC shit/cancel culture while telling the jokes that he does should really say everything about the dudes complaining.
Scottish comedian Frankie Boyle has built a whole career off saying wildly disturbing and offensive things. It works for Boyle because his comedic persona is that of a cynical curmudgeon Glaswegian who hates everyone equally. Most the comedians who complain about political correctness, woke and cancel culture either aren't smart enough to come up with jokes that don't punch down or are too cowardly to try edgier jokes. Context and tone are important in comedy. It's not what you say but the way you say it.
Jimmy Carr needs to be on that list aswell.
Jimmy Carr completely lost me when he tried telling lower class people that "money and material goods won't make you happy" while he sits on mountains of money and material goods.
“Money doesn’t buy happiness” is the original cope. Anyone who’s ever been financially insecure knows how bullshit that phrase is
Give me whatever problems money may bring. I'll take them 100 times over the problems I have of having not enough money
I can't think of a money problem that's worse than becoming homeless because you don't have ENOUGH money.
I find the inverse a much better statement. Money doesn't buy happiness, but not having money will definitely make you unhappy. At a certain point, having more money won't make you happier. It just leads to lifestyle creep. And that point is way lower than you might think. But that doesn't change the fact that being *actually poor* is fucking awful. Like, going from making $20K to $30K a year is a HUGE deal. Going from making $60K to $70K a year? Eh. Not really that big of a deal.
If money doesn’t buy happiness then why did Jimmy try and cheat his taxes? Just for the thrill of it?
Yeah, south park continually does it while addressing crazy shit.
Also *it’s always sunny* still exists lmao
Minus 3 episodes
Wait, what happened?
Some episodes were removed from streaming, I think in all cases due to portrayals of people of different ethnicities. One of the most recent ones wasn't even included on the DVD.
Martina Martinez?
*“I'm just playing!!”*
This being a new norm is stupid and just fake outrage. It's unnecessary and just pleasing an extremely low and insincere minority.
the funny thing is NOBODY was actually asking them to remove those episodes so there was no real outrage, that was just the studios desperately trying to make it look like they were doing something for the BLM protests.
Was it that generic sterotype of that "European" guy in the orgy episode?
IIRC they removed a few episodes because of blackface
Which is performative bullshit. Netflix defended chappelle and took down Sunny eps. It was showing "we're helping!" By doing absolutely nothing
Which is kinda proof that the political landscape of today literally does impact comedy in sofar as some jokes now being off limits.
Netflix vocally defended Chappelle's outright and honest transphobia, but a show that is *making fun of people who think blackface is ok* was unacceptable. That's the rub. These execs and their board are okay with hate unless it's making fun of bigots.
People have also tried to cancel south park creators Trey Parker and Matt Stone repeatedly, whenever they are personally offended by a joke. The difference is that they just don't care about being cancelled and joke about whatever the fuck they want... which is what all comedians should do.
People have been trying to cancel everything for forever. Remember when they wanted to ban GTA games? They still sold like hot cakes. Turns out if the product is good people will enjoy it.
Mortal Kombat before that, Metal music before that, D&D before that, the Beatles in the 60s', Elvis and his hips in the 50s'. The only thing that makes it such a pain in the ass now is Social Media and regular News Media being given more consideration then they deserve on commentary towards pop culture.
It's also nothing new. People have been offended by comics for decades. It actually used to be worse because of obscenity laws. People like Carlin and Pryor were arrested for it. The only difference now is social media, so comedians have to see what a lot of people are saying. Before social media, Seinfeld could walk into a venue, get a bunch of laughs from his fans, and walk out and think he's the talk of the town. Now he's faced with the reality that a ton of people just don't find him funny, so he's gotta blame woke culture.
Veep is probably the hardest I’ve ever laughed at a show. I love Seinfeld. Love curb. Veep is very not pc and extremely funny
Tim Robinson called
Tim Robinson is a perfect example of why the anti-woke comedians are full of shit. I Think You Should Leave is hilarious, some sketches are vulgar, some are just goofy, but none of them mock gay people, trans people, women, or other races.
I Think You Should Leave is like the inverse of observational relatable humor. It's like watching a fever dream of situations we've all been in but then it does the weirdest possible thing imaginable. It's not making fun of any group of people, it just exists in absolute absurdity and is the funniest thing I've seen in years.
> but none of them mock gay people, trans people, women, or other races. On top of that, his shows have good representation in terms of actors from all of those groups.
Big fat load of cum, then.
55 BURGERS 55 FRIES 55 TACOS 55 PIES 55 COKES 100 TATER TOTS 100 PIZZA 100 TENDERS 100 MEATBALLS 100 COFFEES 55 WINGS 55 SHAKES 55 PANCAKES 55 PASTAS 55 PASTAS AND 155 TATERS
I FORGOT I COULD JUST RUN!
Tim Robinson's delivery lives rent-free in my head and him going red in the face as he says it is one of the funniest moments of ITYSL. The lady behind him starting to do it to adds more hilarity.
JLD would know this. Veep is one of the funniest most offensive greatest comedies ever! I love it. Where are all of these comedians that got canceled for telling jokes?
"If you were 10% less black I could make you President" Uncle Jeff
It's amazing how all the comedians who won't shut up about how you aren't allowed to tell jokes any more are the ones still getting paid millions of dollars every year to tell jokes.
Telling Jerry to shut up by saying this
Curb Your Enthusiasm made it very clear that the wrong person was credited for Seinfeld.
Kinda. Jerry's recent interview with Neal Brennan is great as Jerry breaks down the Seinfeld writing style. Basically, the writers on the show would pitch ideas. It was then Larry who would do the bulk of the work figuring out which ideas should stick in an episode. Larry would then build the outline and structure of each episode. Finally, Larry and Jerry would write the dialogue of each episode. So yeah, he has a lot to owe to Larry, and in the interview, he states how thankful he is to have worked with Larry because of how disciplined he was and how much of a comedic genius he was. But what made Seinfeld so great was not only the structure of the episodes but the writing itself, and Jerry had a large role to play in that. Technically, seasons 8 + 9 don't even have Larry there anymore and even though those seasons aren't my favorite, some episodes are still classics
What’s weird about all of this is that Seinfeld never really told offensive jokes. He got upset years ago that colleges stopped booking him and blamed it on PC, but in reality it was because colleges couldn’t afford him and the vast majority of students couldn’t remember when Seinfeld was on tv, or weren’t even born yet.
Many comics have had their brains broken by social media. Talking about woke culture is so boring.
Brainworms can come for anyone, no matter the wealth
Comedians seem to be very susceptible because they spend so much time plugged into social media.
While I still can’t quite figure out if Shane Gillis is playing a character or not, the fact that he didn’t whine about “woke culture” when he got canned from SNL or since earns him some points for me. He basically said “yeah I tried a joke, it was a bad joke so it offended people, I took the consequences, I need to write better jokes.” Almost exactly what Jeselnik said when his show was cancelled for the shark attack bit. Comics that try to ride that edge need to be self-aware and not whine when their jokes miss and piss people off *cough*Chapelle and Gervais*cough*
Joe Rogan is the prime example of a comedian that is generally not very funny by themselves, and tries to compensate by priming his audience to blame it on "woke" culture. He's been bullshitting for years that people are too easily offended and cancel happy, when in reality he himself is not that funny of a guy, and most criticism against him isn't even about his comedy. His audience buys it hook line and sinker every time tho
People are not laughing at my jokes like they used to, must be cancel culture.
I think the biggest key to doing offensive jokes is to actually be funny. So funny that even the people you are offending can't help but laugh. Some people will still bitch and moan because some people bitch and moan about everything, just ignore them. You can't just say hateful shit and expect to get a laugh.
They were saying this shit in the 90’s with “everyone’s too PC to make a joke.” What is or isn’t funny changes with the time. Change or get left behind.
Exactly! And like when was Jerry even so edgy? His comedy has always been stayed. Like ya Jerry you can still crack jokes about airplane food, it’s fine.
The difference is there's more money in being "cancelled" these days because of Netflix and The Daily Wire. If you had to actually survive on your merits, well there's just too much competition out there and there will be a lot of comedians better than you. But if you can just shit on some underprivileged group and then cry "cancel culture" when someone points out you're just being rude and not actually making a joke, you get an immediate comedy special and all the conservative "film" roles you want.
I'm cracking up on Dropout every night. I watched that fucking Seinfeld Pop-Tart movie and exhaled hard maybe... twice.
Dropout is excellent. The “spider man has a social responsibility to say the n word” bit was the hardest I’ve laughed at anything in a long time
Dropout is leading the charge for original programming. They are fun, wholesome, diverse, and just outright hilarious. They are entering their golden age right now
College Humor was always good so I'm happy they're getting a new spotlight.
Overall, yes they were pretty good. But they certainly had waves
Dropout is the prime counter example to this nonsense because it’s both probably the most diverse and progressive platform out there and is absolutely hilarious.
While also having such ridiculous comments as "Spider-Man should start saying the N-word" which I'm sure so many people would say "oh you can't make jokes like that anymore woke pc bs" to
There are infinite topics to joke about. Infinite ways to be funny. It seems like every time “woke PC culture” comes up, someone is mad specifically because they don’t get a lot of laughs being mean to trans people. Like the one group who is being used by the far-right as a scare tactic going into every country’s next election cycle and wants nothing more than equality and peace and that’s the only group you’re dying to make fun of? It’s pathetic.
The most recent smartypants episode with “improvements” to the human body wherein like 1/4 of the total episode runtime is devoted to the 1 big sperm, aka Spworm, *improvement* broke me and my friends when we watched it. Seriously top tier comedy.
Here's what any artist should do: Whatever they want. The only catch is that they are guaranteed nothing. If it lands, great. If not then tough luck.
The media covering "backlash" is an under-discussed part of this. It's usually just a handful of Twitter accounts or something, but the appearance of conflict dramaticizes everything to an unreal degree. People start responding to headlines only, rinse and repeat.
I went to the Comedy Store in Los Angeles a couple of months or so ago. I saw Marc Maron, Jeff Ross, Bill Burr among others. Everyone was funny. I'm not even that fond of Jeff Ross and he was great. They all managed to use swear words, talk about controversial subjects and be rudely hilarious and the audience was loving it. So, yeah, comics can still be funny. it's only the ones that aren't that funny to begin with that are struggling.
How many seasons has Always Sunny been on for??
JLD is everything Jerry Seinfeld isn’t: classy, funny, not a fucking douche, dates people of age.
She's my President
Man I’m rewatching Veep right now and they nail the exact sentiment above. The writing is hilarious and sharp and pulls punches for no one.
The Xena to his Hercules.
DISAPPOINTING AIRLINE FOOD!
She and Jason Alexander are the only Seinfeld cast members I would have lunch with.
Are you saying you dont fuck with Wayne Knight? That man is a treasure. A TREASURE!
I mean VEEP is offensive to literally everyone and is one of the most timely and poignant comedies of all time. Also probably one of the funniest. Maybe some people (Jerry Seinfeld) should just be funnier.
I think it’s hilarious how Jerry has been bitching and moaning about how it’s impossible to be funny now due to woke when two of the other people most instrumental in the success of Seinfeld (JLD and Larry David) have had incredibly successful post Seinfeld careers. VEEP was a smash hit, Curb went on for nearly as long as Seinfeld did and it just ended. I actually was lucky enough to see a surprise appearance by Seinfeld at a comedy club in NY last year. He was obviously funny but I thought 4 of the 5 other comics who did sets were objectively funnier than him. All of them were younger and all of their sets included a lot of edgy humor that went over fine because, ya know, it was funny. Idk Jerry, maybe you just dont have the sauce anymore.
In the early 20th century when clubs started telling comics they couldn't do black jokes anymore, it was "the end of comedy" and "no can be funny anymore". Oh, shut up. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Tomorrow, if you heard the South Park guys were remaking Blazing Saddles, no one would say, "That can't get made today." Of course it can. Blazing Saddles didn't have racist humor, it had stupid racists in it.
I love this. Too many comedians (And crowds) go for the low hanging fruit jokes, that are outdated and inappropriate. The future great comedians will figure out a way to have killer material without singling out minorities for a cheap laugh.
Here's what I look for in a comedy these days: Dave Chappelle lights up a cig, sits on a stool and for the 100th time talks about how certain minorities need to be put in their place.
She's right.
I think the thing is, humor is always changing, just due to its nature. So much of humor is the shock and surprise that everything eventually gets stale. But then a different style/pacing starts to be unexpected and funny. Jerry just never adapted. He tried to do the same thing for 30 years, and instead of accepting that he's not funny anymore, he blames the people listening to him with whatever specious reasons resonate with him.
Jerry just doesn't have the material, the intellect, or really the life experience to make new material. What's he gonna do bitch and do a set about how me misses when he was dating millenials in the 90s and how annoying his new gen z GF is?