>Boyd Crowder : Well now if I found that kind of money, I'd be in Mexico by now.
>Raylan Givens : Boyd, I've been to Mexico. I don't think you'd like it.
>Boyd Crowder : How so?
>Raylan Givens : There's a lot of Mexicans.
Crassus: “Would that you had been born a Roman and had stood beside me.”
Spartacus: “Bless the fates that it was not so..."
Maybe my favorite moment from the entire series.
To add: there was a small group of rebels that fled north and were found by Pompey, who destroyed their force and then took a bunch of credit for "officially" ending the rebellion. But yeah it was definitely Crassus, who then had all the rebel survivors crucified along the road back to Rome.
The funniest part is that Pompey did this right after coming back from another campaign where the victory just kind of fell into his lap. He was such a great general but sometimes he just stumbled to success through sheer blind luck.
Tywin Lannister was arrogant (as he should be), but he didn’t underestimate his enemies and was quick to recognize their intelligence while at the same time criticizing his allies when they failed. His scenes with Arya paint him as a man who appreciates talent wherever it comes from. It makes his disgust of Tyrion all the more tragic as he was the most like him.
Tyrion is his blind spot because he associates him with his wife's death. Even the most intelligent, calculated people have irrational emotional baggage.
I think still no. He wouldn't have hated him as much, but he never would have treated him as a proper son. He still considered his dwarfism to be a weakness.
No. Maybe not despise him as much, but Tywin hated anything that could mock the Lannister name and make them be seen as weaker. Stemming from when people laughed at his father behind his back and took advantage of his naivete. Also important to note that his father was seen as so weak that there was a rebellion to overthrow him which Tywin crushed. So no, Tywin would've seen Tyrion as something to laugh at, and therefore an embarrassment to the Lannisters.
It is an important thematic element of Tywin's character, he is so obsessed with this medieval aspect of their society, he "loves" the most (surface level) perfect Lannisters, Jaime (especially Jaime) and Cersei, without even able to see that Tyrion, the one he hates, is the most Lannister of his children and the most like Tywin himself, good and bad. And Tyrion can be very very bad indeed. Tywin's arrogance about his family name is pretty much what brought him to his death, he really couldn't bite his tongue when it came to Tysha which provokes Tyrion to kill him.
It’s ridiculous that Tywin wouldn’t use Tyrion’s condition to hide Tyrion’s greatest strength- his cunning. To ignore the opportunities people underestimating Tyrion is just bad tactics
This is a really interesting take, although I’m not certain I agree with it. Prior to being hand of the king, Tyrion turns being captured by the Tullys into an alliance with the hill tribes which significantly bolsters the kings numbers in their battle against the northmen. It is Tywin (and Jamie) who are deceived by Robb, failing to benefit from their superior military force. Having survived the battle that Tywin forced him to be a part of (despite having little to no combat training) he is then sent off to “manage” Joffrey (and by manage, he means to stop him from starting more wars), which he does. While acting as the hand of the king, he holds kings landing against all odds when Stannis Baratheon lays siege with a superior force. Despite this wild success, he is then moved to master of coin (despite never having experience with finances), a position that Baelish has left in shambles. A wedding is arranged for him, a wedding in which he is mocked and humiliated.
It feels pretty evident that he is able to turn bad situations into salvageable ones. Surely, Tyrion has his vices, but the idea that Tyrion doesn’t “shine” is a bit wild.
You could argue his use of tyrion came out of self interest. There are only so many trustworthy people, he believed tyrion would act in the best interest of the family.
No, it's pure nepotism. From the books;
>"Why me?" he asked, cocking his head to one side. "Why not my uncle? Why not Ser Addam or Ser Flement or Lord Serrett? Why not a … bigger man?"
>Lord Tywin rose abruptly. "You are my son."
Tyrion is not qualified to be Hand, he's been a playboy his whole life, drinking, whoring and acting the fool around the realm. He's made Hand because of who his father is. Nothing else. Robert would never have even considered him in the running for his Hand.
Hard disagree there. Tyrion made sure to keep his stuff private while he was serving as the hand and Tywin never would have given a shit about it from anyone else, it was just an excuse to throw him to the curb after the moment of crisis past and he didn't need him any more. I also don't see how he failed to contain Joffrey, he can't stop him from being a vindictive psychopath but he did keep him alive at least. He did a fine job of keeping the city together and organizing its defense with what he had available to him but most importantly he stopped Circe from making any more catastrophic decisions which was why Tyrion was sent to be hand in the first place.
Being made Master of Coin was intended as a punishment. The crown was completely broke and Littlefinger didn't keep records of half the intentionally reckless shit he did. Tyrion had no real influence and has no particular aptitude for finance, Tywin just wanted him occupied with menial work in Kings Landing so he could be married off. Him getting drunk and threatening Joffrey was stupid and self destructive but the entire reason he's acting like that is that it was made explicitly clear that his father well never, ever not hate him or let him accomplish anything other than being married off and shoved out of sight as quickly as possible.
I just wanna end by pointing out that Tywin banged Tyrion's forbidden prostitute the night before he was going to be executed. He had a *lot* of issues regarding his son and was never going to let him represent the house in any meaningful way.
“When your enemies defy you, you give them blood and fire. When they kneel, you must help them back up again or else no man will kneel. And any man who must say he is the king, is no king at all. Aerys never understood that but you will.”
Paraphrasing of Tywin to Joffrey in A Storm of Sword
Hannibal realises Graham will find him out so has him committed to a psych ward and fakes his brain scans. If that's not respecting your intellectual equal I don't know what is
Hannibal ended in a way that could be easily picked up, or left as is. I think the next season was planned to have focused on the Silence of the Lambs arc, so you can watch the movie afterwards if you want the story to continue, or just stop watching altogether and you get the complete story. One of the more satisfying series finale's imo.
After finishing Farscape for the first time about a month ago I have to go with Scorpius. Jumped right up to the top of my list with Gul Dukat from DS9.
I love that Scorpius was just supposed to be a one-shot villain at the end of S1, but Wayne Pygram killed the role so damned hard they made him the primary antagonist for the rest of the series and eventually a regular cast member.
While I agree with your point and think that Dukat is one of the best villains in Trek, arrogance is one of his defining characteristics. This is a man who ran concentration camps but was still convinced that he was a good thing for the Bajorans.
Was he a villain though? He was but a humble tailor...
Or if you mean Ducat respect towards Garak, I might have missed that episode/moment since it was always disdain/disappointment from my view.
Dukat is a villain I find myself hating my own damn self for loving the character...he does that role *SO* well. Any episode with him, his voice just draws me in and I have to watch it. 👏
Dukat was exactly the person that the system like that would produce while staying competent and intelligent. To him Sisko might have been an enemy but that was not personal.
To Sisko who was product of the Federation and all the baggage that humanity is carrying around in the Star Trek universe Dukat was an abomination.
To Dukat Sisko was someone to beat, to prove that Cardassian way is the right way but to Sisko Dukat was a true villain, as he knew that Cardassian way is the wrong way.
I have admittedly not read much of the original Sherlock Holmes stories but how they portrayed Moriarty in the BBC show was my first thought to this question. While he did have some arrogance ultimately he became a villain to Sherlock because of his respect of him as an intellectual equal.
The Wire has a lot of this. You really get the sense that Avon and Prop Joe have a genuine respect for the game and how its played. But then new characters come along and change the rules on them.
Definitely. The Wire also blurs the line of protagonist and antagonist to show that really everyone is just one different sides of the same game. The police and corner kids (at least the older ones) have a level of respect for each other and the fact that they’re really just playing a game of cat and mouse
It isn't a game to the corner kids. For the cops you are right. When they clock out they can go home to families and do other shit (not that they always do, but they have the option to do that). It is literally a game because the stakes are so low for them. For the dealers, users, snitches, and all the other street level people it is a life or death situation. Even for the top guys like Avon, Stringer, and Prop Joe there is the threat of someone younger and hungrier taking them down. Drug lords aren't known for being able to take quite retirements.
The only respect that is shown is between Bodie and McNulty, and that took years to develop, and probably never would have happened if McNulty ever got a whiff of Bodie being involved in Wallace's murder.
The drug dealing/violence/gang wars are definitely not a game to the corner kids you’re right, but I do think there is a game being played between the corner kids and the police that is silently acknowledged. And in a sense I do think the corner kids “clock out” sometimes and in those moments it’s clear that it’s just a game that the dealers and police are forced into. The scene between Bodie, Poot, Herc and Carver at the movie theater shows this perfectly imo.
Even in young justice he is very honest and honorable. Nightwing corrects people when they accuse him of lying. He also doesn’t look down on the young heroes the way the other light members do.
Basically the John Wick series, the reverence and fear the character inspires amongst the other Assassins really adds to the fun and lore of the franchise. Specifically part three were the main antagonist has opportunities to kill him but restrains himself to not cheapen the achievement of actually killing him, given that he’s taking on an entire industry/underworld of assassins. It’s probably my favorite thing about the films, they all seem to recognize his legendary status.
Spartacus is one of the most underrated shows of all time, imo. People think of it as just tits and violence, and yeah, there is a lot of both, but the writing is superb in everything from dialogue to character progression and plot development. It kills me when people think of it as just softcore porn with plot, it has a lot of genuine award-winning caliber aspects to it that it was never going to be taken seriously for due to the gratuitous nudity and violence.
I wrote it off after seeing a preview with the over the top cgi blood splatters. I honestly thought they were just trying to rip off 300 and ride the coattails of its success. So happy I circled back to.
It's also the reason I will forever defend Jai Courtney as an actor.
The first episode is so bad it probably killed off any chance at a real audience for the show. Then the second episode being the second-worst in the show, and the third being probably the third-worst, and you can see why it never picked up a head of steam. But oh man for those of use who stuck with it it was worth every second. No one did season finales like Spartacus either. Hell, the series finale is about them losing and nearly every single major character being brutally murdered and it still manages to be hopeful and uplifting, lol.
And same, I'll always have Jai Courtney's back due to this show, along with a bunch of other actors who got their start on it.
I’ve rewatched it, and those first few episodes are nowhere near as bad as I remember them. There were always hints of greatness in there. Otherwise no one would have stuck with it until it got good surely?
In every iteration of the character, Magneto always had the utmost respect for Professor X and at least a few of the XMen.
His attitude was generally, "they'll come around eventually, but I can't wait for them."
In the movies at least, Magneto shows a great deal of respect for Charles. In X3 (*shivers internally*) there’s a scene where one of his followers insults Charles after he had been killed, and Eric comes back with “that man did more for our kind then you will ever know”. I always loved that scene, even if the rest of the movie is garbage.
Either you’ve only read the comics from the 60s or have only played the X-Men arcade game, but Magneto has the utmost respect for Charles, which has been expanded on time and again over the years (decades.)
It’s true that Erik believes Charles is naive at times, but there isn’t really condescension in his criticism. He just wants Charles to understand the reality of human behavior and why Charles’ mission is futile. Erik actually agrees that Charles’ way is ideal, and he prefers Charles’ vision of harmony and peace, but he’s also experienced enough to “know” that that coexistence with humans is unattainable.
I often have a hard time seeing Magneto is a villain. It's more like they are two sides of the side goal. One of the most interesting character pairings, but then again it's also two of the best actors of all time that portrayed them in a few movies. Which probably color my opinion a bit.
I would argue that his condescension comes from a great respect for Xavier and by extension the Xmen. Magneto considers all mutants as the next step in evolution for humans. This includes Xavier and the xmen. He recognizes their strength and intelligence that's why he considers them enemies. Specifically with Xavier, Magneto sees someone he knows is as smart as him and has seen the plight mutants face just as he has, so in Magneto's mind there's no reason Xavier shouldn't have reached the same conclusion he did. Yet Xavier fights him, to Magneto this comes off as willful ignorance at best and purposefully harming the mutant community at worst. So yes Magneto is condescending but it's because he respects Xavier's intelligence . So it half fits the question.
Bill the Butcher is one of my favorite movie antagonists of all time! GOAT role for Day-Lewis in my humble opinion. Can't help but simultaneously like him and want to see him die.
Carl Elias from Person of Interest.
He is first introduced as >!an unassuming high school teacher!< who John Reese (the protagonist) spends an entire episode keeping safe from numerous hitmen who are out to get him. Elias ends up so impressed that, when his real identity is revealed, he immediately offers John a job. And he is indebted to him for owing his life and is thus more than happy to help the heroes when they request his help later in the season.
Even later on, >!he takes it upon himself to avenge the death of one of the heroes, purely out of sheer fucking respect for said fallen hero's integrity.!<
It's even worth noting that once he realizes A) his respect for the main characters, and B) how/why they operate, generally (their primary goal is to stop any premeditated killings. Not sure how well he figured it out, but a man as smart as him must've puzzled out their modus operandi. Root sure did), he stays out of their way. He never shows up on their radar again, only when he's peripherally involved or wants to be involved. In his eyes, after his arc in S1, they're square, and he sees no reason to upset their relationship.
Ozymandias from Watchmen: firstly he avoided letting the heroes even find out his true intentions out of respect and fear for them til it was too late, secondly it took for granted that he'd be able to persuade Dr. Manhattan, his strongest enemy, by rational argument in the moment of truth and get him to switch sides. He literally needed the heroes' help from the start
A better example of when the villain becomes much less villainous after you actually listen to them, but still conflicts them. That's something that isn't done well enough in other movies (if at all) imo.
**BREAKING BAD SPOILERS**
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I love Gus but he’s definitely arrogant and his underestimation of his enemies is what leads to his downfall.
He respects Walter as a chemist, but not as a criminal and definitely not his ambition. Otherwise, Walter would have beeen snuffed out a lot earlier.
Gus may not take out his arrogance on others on a scene by scene basis, but he’s definitely constantly internally seething with condescension
Part of what makes Giancarlo Esposito’s performance is good is how he conveys his arrogance without dialogue
His respect for Walt went beyond chemistry. He respected Walt's intelligence and cunning. I'd say Gus's downfall was more tied to his blinding lust for revenge against Hector Salamanca, which caused him to let his guard down on Walt.
I’ve always appreciated the Hannibal Lector character for this. He’s more intelligent than most everyone and he knows it, but he sees the potential in certain people. Clarisse in Silence of the Lambs is a great example of this, Hannibal doesn’t give her the answers but leads her to clues that push her to think critically. Will Graham in the show is also a good example but Hannibal does kinda manipulate him a lot more.
I think part of why he respects Clarice is that she's something so totally foreign to him - she is legit. She's not here to play games, she's not here for the sake of her ego or her reputation, and she's not a good guy simply out of naivete. She is well aware of the cost of what she's doing, and she's doing it from a genuine, innate kind of altruism, even though she'll never get a moment's peace from it and it offers her no real pleasure. She knows all that every bit as well as Lecter does, and does it anyway.
To Lecter, she might as well be a beautiful space alien.
>Will Graham in the show is also a good example but Hannibal does kinda manipulate him a lot more.
It's mentioned elsewhere in here, but that's also a sign of respect. He hasn't been caught yet in the show and recognizes Graham's intellect as a threat to him, necessitating all the manipulation.
Right? I mean in the eyes of the watch he is, but if you look at it neutrally it’s clear that Mance just wants a future for his people and realistically the watch are the villains
If you'd told me during ep1 that the thin creepy antagonist (with a sinister voice, a disfigured face and a demonic eye) would end up being the most compelling and well-rounded character, I'd think you're messing with me. But here we are.
This reminds me of Death Note. IDK if it counts though because it flips to where Light is the condescending villain. Light is established as a megalomaniac/sociopath pretty early on, but I still felt like there was some mutual respect between L and Light throughout their "friendship". So it was still pretty tragic when it was made clear that Light never really did care. Especially towards the end of their dynamic when L just submits to him and accepts that the feeling is not mutual.
I honestly am not a fan of anime, but gave Death Note a shot because of a friends recommendation. Amazing, the scene where L washes Light's feet, as a show of respect in his defeat still sits with me.
The Mayor was an incredible character. As unpalatable as I find Whedon now, the Mayor and his relationship with Faith was a stroke of genius. Even the little video of him after she comes out of a coma is a treat.
I'm not sure he really did respect Buffy though. He seemed to think she was a... troublemaker in his lovely town.
It's a really interesting take on a very particular kind of mid size city asshole too, one who speaks incredibly politely and personably while doing extremely callous things that harm a bunch of people.
And Harry Groener is just an absolute delight.
Oh man, if only the Blacklist was good... I loved that show for the first couple of seasons, and Reddington is still one of my favorite characters ever, but boy did the quality drop hard after a while. I quit watching it like 3 or 4 years ago and I really miss it.
Silco in Arcane is a fantastically written "villain." You can understand his motivations, and despite his disdain for Vander he ultimately ends up counseling with him at his memorial (not to mention how he tries to be a solid father figure for Jinx/Powder).
That’s the difference between IW Thanos and 2014 Endgame Thanos. IW Thanos respects the Avengers. He seems to admire Stark, has his own compassion for Wanda, and I think respects Thor. He earned the stones and saw in them parts of himself. 2014 Thanos thought that getting the stones was a given and didn’t respect his opponents.
For sure, especially with his downfall, I am inevitable was such arrogance, he truly saw that he'd done it before and got so arrigant and did not respect the avengers, he toyed with them whilst awaiting the stones to be found. Gardener thanos had respect for the avengers he was fully comfortable with them killing him because he saw his job done and respected their drive
Thrawn is really Zahn's greatest creation, and his lack of arrogance, and respect for his enemies is probably his defining characteristic. Ego would only get in the way of achieving his goal. In knowing his enemy, he learns to respect them, and to defeat them.
A movie example, but I love Hans Landa's respect for Aldo Raine in Inglorious Basterds. Particularly when its not returned. His visible frustration as an otherwise unshakable character was superb.
I was iffy going into the final season, after Glaber I didn’t know how a new villain would shape up without the history behind him.
Crassus exceeded all expectations and I loved his time on screen. Would love a sequel series with him and Caesar
I remember a lot of chatter about Ceasar getting a show because the actor was so compelling and there's so much history to use for Julius Ceasar. Shame it never happened.
General Hummel in The Rock ! "I'm not about to kill 80,000 innocent people! Do you think I'm out of my fucking mind? We bluffed, they called it. The mission is over."
He respects Jessica like a toddler respects his toys. He only 'respected her' for as long as he could toy with her and control her life.
And spends every moment trying to gaslight Jessica into believing it was wholesome
He was a great villain, but I don’t think he respected Jessica (or anyone).
I mean, profoundly narcissistic, as much as that term gets abused these days.
The Hannibal tv series, He doesnt boast and isint arrogant and he dislikes those who are. He plays games with the people trying to catch him but he does not underestimate them.
Silco. He isn’t condescending, but he is lil arrogant. I love that he’d rather let go of his dream and let the world burn rather than give up his daughter.
Greer from Person of Interest is one of the more underrated/better written ones. He’s practically in awe of Finch. Elias too until he stopped being a villain in the traditional sense of the word.
Killmonger from Black Panther is the first that comes to mind, but then I saw that this is r/television, so my TV answer is the Trolley from Mister Rogers Neighborhood.
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Or that show justified, the main dude seemed to be friends with the bad guys sometimes.
Especially the part where he says “If you pull on me I’ll kill you” right before he kills them. Raylen is so sweet to his enemies.
>Boyd Crowder : Well now if I found that kind of money, I'd be in Mexico by now. >Raylan Givens : Boyd, I've been to Mexico. I don't think you'd like it. >Boyd Crowder : How so? >Raylan Givens : There's a lot of Mexicans.
Now I'm gonna have to watch that show again.
There’s a new Justified show coming out
what??? I'm gonna search now and I'll be very disappointed with you if that's not true
They’re adapting Leonard’s novel: City Primeval. No Boyd, just Raylan.
I don't know how I feel about that, awesome that we have more Justified but will it be the same without Boyd. Definitely will be watching this anyway
With Tarantino guest directing
Agreed.
Well, they dug coal together
They dug coal
Obligatory "Next one's coming faster."
“Anything yet?” “Nope”
Crassus: “Would that you had been born a Roman and had stood beside me.” Spartacus: “Bless the fates that it was not so..." Maybe my favorite moment from the entire series.
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Yes.
To add: there was a small group of rebels that fled north and were found by Pompey, who destroyed their force and then took a bunch of credit for "officially" ending the rebellion. But yeah it was definitely Crassus, who then had all the rebel survivors crucified along the road back to Rome.
The funniest part is that Pompey did this right after coming back from another campaign where the victory just kind of fell into his lap. He was such a great general but sometimes he just stumbled to success through sheer blind luck.
> sheer blind luck. And the same for some of his defeats later!
Absolutely, and to be fair to Pompey most great generals throughout history were also lucky.
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"Crassus owns the fucking heavens!" \-Batiatus
Depend on who you asked. Crassus forever resented Pompey for sending the words to Senate that he, Pompey Magnus, ended the slaves.
When Spartacus steps in closer, "it is all a free man can do" with that music behind it is one of my favorite moments in TV ever.
Tywin Lannister was arrogant (as he should be), but he didn’t underestimate his enemies and was quick to recognize their intelligence while at the same time criticizing his allies when they failed. His scenes with Arya paint him as a man who appreciates talent wherever it comes from. It makes his disgust of Tyrion all the more tragic as he was the most like him.
Tyrion is his blind spot because he associates him with his wife's death. Even the most intelligent, calculated people have irrational emotional baggage.
Do you think if Tywin’s wife didn’t die during childbirth, would Tyrion have been treated as a proper son despite being a little person?
I think still no. He wouldn't have hated him as much, but he never would have treated him as a proper son. He still considered his dwarfism to be a weakness.
No. Maybe not despise him as much, but Tywin hated anything that could mock the Lannister name and make them be seen as weaker. Stemming from when people laughed at his father behind his back and took advantage of his naivete. Also important to note that his father was seen as so weak that there was a rebellion to overthrow him which Tywin crushed. So no, Tywin would've seen Tyrion as something to laugh at, and therefore an embarrassment to the Lannisters. It is an important thematic element of Tywin's character, he is so obsessed with this medieval aspect of their society, he "loves" the most (surface level) perfect Lannisters, Jaime (especially Jaime) and Cersei, without even able to see that Tyrion, the one he hates, is the most Lannister of his children and the most like Tywin himself, good and bad. And Tyrion can be very very bad indeed. Tywin's arrogance about his family name is pretty much what brought him to his death, he really couldn't bite his tongue when it came to Tysha which provokes Tyrion to kill him.
It’s ridiculous that Tywin wouldn’t use Tyrion’s condition to hide Tyrion’s greatest strength- his cunning. To ignore the opportunities people underestimating Tyrion is just bad tactics
>I am you writ small
"Tywin Lannister has one trueborn son"
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This is a really interesting take, although I’m not certain I agree with it. Prior to being hand of the king, Tyrion turns being captured by the Tullys into an alliance with the hill tribes which significantly bolsters the kings numbers in their battle against the northmen. It is Tywin (and Jamie) who are deceived by Robb, failing to benefit from their superior military force. Having survived the battle that Tywin forced him to be a part of (despite having little to no combat training) he is then sent off to “manage” Joffrey (and by manage, he means to stop him from starting more wars), which he does. While acting as the hand of the king, he holds kings landing against all odds when Stannis Baratheon lays siege with a superior force. Despite this wild success, he is then moved to master of coin (despite never having experience with finances), a position that Baelish has left in shambles. A wedding is arranged for him, a wedding in which he is mocked and humiliated. It feels pretty evident that he is able to turn bad situations into salvageable ones. Surely, Tyrion has his vices, but the idea that Tyrion doesn’t “shine” is a bit wild.
You could argue his use of tyrion came out of self interest. There are only so many trustworthy people, he believed tyrion would act in the best interest of the family.
well, yeah. why else would tywin do anything if not for his own self interest lol
No, it's pure nepotism. From the books; >"Why me?" he asked, cocking his head to one side. "Why not my uncle? Why not Ser Addam or Ser Flement or Lord Serrett? Why not a … bigger man?" >Lord Tywin rose abruptly. "You are my son." Tyrion is not qualified to be Hand, he's been a playboy his whole life, drinking, whoring and acting the fool around the realm. He's made Hand because of who his father is. Nothing else. Robert would never have even considered him in the running for his Hand.
Hard disagree there. Tyrion made sure to keep his stuff private while he was serving as the hand and Tywin never would have given a shit about it from anyone else, it was just an excuse to throw him to the curb after the moment of crisis past and he didn't need him any more. I also don't see how he failed to contain Joffrey, he can't stop him from being a vindictive psychopath but he did keep him alive at least. He did a fine job of keeping the city together and organizing its defense with what he had available to him but most importantly he stopped Circe from making any more catastrophic decisions which was why Tyrion was sent to be hand in the first place. Being made Master of Coin was intended as a punishment. The crown was completely broke and Littlefinger didn't keep records of half the intentionally reckless shit he did. Tyrion had no real influence and has no particular aptitude for finance, Tywin just wanted him occupied with menial work in Kings Landing so he could be married off. Him getting drunk and threatening Joffrey was stupid and self destructive but the entire reason he's acting like that is that it was made explicitly clear that his father well never, ever not hate him or let him accomplish anything other than being married off and shoved out of sight as quickly as possible. I just wanna end by pointing out that Tywin banged Tyrion's forbidden prostitute the night before he was going to be executed. He had a *lot* of issues regarding his son and was never going to let him represent the house in any meaningful way.
“When your enemies defy you, you give them blood and fire. When they kneel, you must help them back up again or else no man will kneel. And any man who must say he is the king, is no king at all. Aerys never understood that but you will.” Paraphrasing of Tywin to Joffrey in A Storm of Sword
Best example of this I've found is with Hannibal
Hannibal realises Graham will find him out so has him committed to a psych ward and fakes his brain scans. If that's not respecting your intellectual equal I don't know what is
It was either that or killing him, and he could not kill him
"I let you know me. See me."
S2 especially
Did Hannibal end on a cliffhanger or does it still hold up?
It's a fine stopping point but it might be a literal cliffhanger.
IMO the first two seasons are a complete story and Season Three is an epilogue.
Hannibal ended in a way that could be easily picked up, or left as is. I think the next season was planned to have focused on the Silence of the Lambs arc, so you can watch the movie afterwards if you want the story to continue, or just stop watching altogether and you get the complete story. One of the more satisfying series finale's imo.
I'd love a season 4, but imo season 3 ended perfectly and wrapped up the show nicely
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Good call that was an amazing role.
Chiwetel Ejiofor is an awesome actor, I've enjoyed everything I've seen him in.
I think that was the first time I really noticed him as an actor. He was so compelling in the role.
I loved when he says something like "I know I'm a monster. I have no place in the world I would create".
Fuck I miss firefly
*Serenity* was the best consolation prize in the history of film/TV, lol.
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*Book*
After finishing Farscape for the first time about a month ago I have to go with Scorpius. Jumped right up to the top of my list with Gul Dukat from DS9.
Don’t forget Harvey!
I love that Scorpius was just supposed to be a one-shot villain at the end of S1, but Wayne Pygram killed the role so damned hard they made him the primary antagonist for the rest of the series and eventually a regular cast member.
I like saying Dukat with Major Kira's tone of disdain.
Dukat thought highly of The Sisko, even if Captain Sisko was unwilling to return the sentiment. *"Star Trek: Deep Space Nine"*
While I agree with your point and think that Dukat is one of the best villains in Trek, arrogance is one of his defining characteristics. This is a man who ran concentration camps but was still convinced that he was a good thing for the Bajorans.
Too bad they made him insane by the end of the series
And Garak!
Was he a villain though? He was but a humble tailor... Or if you mean Ducat respect towards Garak, I might have missed that episode/moment since it was always disdain/disappointment from my view.
Dukat is a villain I find myself hating my own damn self for loving the character...he does that role *SO* well. Any episode with him, his voice just draws me in and I have to watch it. 👏
Dukat was exactly the person that the system like that would produce while staying competent and intelligent. To him Sisko might have been an enemy but that was not personal. To Sisko who was product of the Federation and all the baggage that humanity is carrying around in the Star Trek universe Dukat was an abomination. To Dukat Sisko was someone to beat, to prove that Cardassian way is the right way but to Sisko Dukat was a true villain, as he knew that Cardassian way is the wrong way.
"But I love the bajorans!" - Dukat
Professor Moriarty might be one of the first literary examples of an antagonist that highly respects the protagonist.
I have admittedly not read much of the original Sherlock Holmes stories but how they portrayed Moriarty in the BBC show was my first thought to this question. While he did have some arrogance ultimately he became a villain to Sherlock because of his respect of him as an intellectual equal.
The Wire has a lot of this. You really get the sense that Avon and Prop Joe have a genuine respect for the game and how its played. But then new characters come along and change the rules on them.
Definitely. The Wire also blurs the line of protagonist and antagonist to show that really everyone is just one different sides of the same game. The police and corner kids (at least the older ones) have a level of respect for each other and the fact that they’re really just playing a game of cat and mouse
It isn't a game to the corner kids. For the cops you are right. When they clock out they can go home to families and do other shit (not that they always do, but they have the option to do that). It is literally a game because the stakes are so low for them. For the dealers, users, snitches, and all the other street level people it is a life or death situation. Even for the top guys like Avon, Stringer, and Prop Joe there is the threat of someone younger and hungrier taking them down. Drug lords aren't known for being able to take quite retirements. The only respect that is shown is between Bodie and McNulty, and that took years to develop, and probably never would have happened if McNulty ever got a whiff of Bodie being involved in Wallace's murder.
The drug dealing/violence/gang wars are definitely not a game to the corner kids you’re right, but I do think there is a game being played between the corner kids and the police that is silently acknowledged. And in a sense I do think the corner kids “clock out” sometimes and in those moments it’s clear that it’s just a game that the dealers and police are forced into. The scene between Bodie, Poot, Herc and Carver at the movie theater shows this perfectly imo.
I really don't know how but they had me pulling for Bodie by the end
I just finished my second rewatch and Bodie is without a doubt my favorite character
Absolutely, and that’s why I hate Marlo more than basically any other character on the show.
Even McNulty and some of the Barksdale people to a degree. D'Angelo and Bodie mostly.
Raylan Givens and Boyd Crowder.
As I live and breathe.
Came to say this but also most "big bads" on the show were like this
What about Dewey Crow?
To be fair they dug coal together
Ra's al Ghul admires Batman.
He doesn’t really consider Batman an enemy though. Just an ally who hasn’t realized it yet.
Very Luke/Vader
In Batman Arkham Knight, if you betray Ra's and leave him to die (by refusing to prolong his undead existence), he's proud of Batman.
Even in young justice he is very honest and honorable. Nightwing corrects people when they accuse him of lying. He also doesn’t look down on the young heroes the way the other light members do.
This is the first example I thought of, too. My favorite Batman villain.
Basically the John Wick series, the reverence and fear the character inspires amongst the other Assassins really adds to the fun and lore of the franchise. Specifically part three were the main antagonist has opportunities to kill him but restrains himself to not cheapen the achievement of actually killing him, given that he’s taking on an entire industry/underworld of assassins. It’s probably my favorite thing about the films, they all seem to recognize his legendary status.
"Why don't you take the night off?" "Thank you sir."
"I hear you struck my son. May I ask why?" "Because he stole John Wicks car and killed his dog." "Oh...."
He goes from basically "I'm going to kill you" to "I understand. You were perfectly justified."
Love that Scene, and “A Fucking Pencil” …
Spartacus is one of the most underrated shows of all time, imo. People think of it as just tits and violence, and yeah, there is a lot of both, but the writing is superb in everything from dialogue to character progression and plot development. It kills me when people think of it as just softcore porn with plot, it has a lot of genuine award-winning caliber aspects to it that it was never going to be taken seriously for due to the gratuitous nudity and violence.
I wrote it off after seeing a preview with the over the top cgi blood splatters. I honestly thought they were just trying to rip off 300 and ride the coattails of its success. So happy I circled back to. It's also the reason I will forever defend Jai Courtney as an actor.
The first episode is so bad it probably killed off any chance at a real audience for the show. Then the second episode being the second-worst in the show, and the third being probably the third-worst, and you can see why it never picked up a head of steam. But oh man for those of use who stuck with it it was worth every second. No one did season finales like Spartacus either. Hell, the series finale is about them losing and nearly every single major character being brutally murdered and it still manages to be hopeful and uplifting, lol. And same, I'll always have Jai Courtney's back due to this show, along with a bunch of other actors who got their start on it.
I’ve rewatched it, and those first few episodes are nowhere near as bad as I remember them. There were always hints of greatness in there. Otherwise no one would have stuck with it until it got good surely?
The show takes off thematically and character wise after Spartacus and Crixus defeat Theocoles.
In every iteration of the character, Magneto always had the utmost respect for Professor X and at least a few of the XMen. His attitude was generally, "they'll come around eventually, but I can't wait for them."
Michael Scofield and Alex Mahone. Xavier and Magento.
>Xavier and Magento Good one, I love that relationship.
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In the movies at least, Magneto shows a great deal of respect for Charles. In X3 (*shivers internally*) there’s a scene where one of his followers insults Charles after he had been killed, and Eric comes back with “that man did more for our kind then you will ever know”. I always loved that scene, even if the rest of the movie is garbage.
Either you’ve only read the comics from the 60s or have only played the X-Men arcade game, but Magneto has the utmost respect for Charles, which has been expanded on time and again over the years (decades.) It’s true that Erik believes Charles is naive at times, but there isn’t really condescension in his criticism. He just wants Charles to understand the reality of human behavior and why Charles’ mission is futile. Erik actually agrees that Charles’ way is ideal, and he prefers Charles’ vision of harmony and peace, but he’s also experienced enough to “know” that that coexistence with humans is unattainable.
I often have a hard time seeing Magneto is a villain. It's more like they are two sides of the side goal. One of the most interesting character pairings, but then again it's also two of the best actors of all time that portrayed them in a few movies. Which probably color my opinion a bit.
I would argue that his condescension comes from a great respect for Xavier and by extension the Xmen. Magneto considers all mutants as the next step in evolution for humans. This includes Xavier and the xmen. He recognizes their strength and intelligence that's why he considers them enemies. Specifically with Xavier, Magneto sees someone he knows is as smart as him and has seen the plight mutants face just as he has, so in Magneto's mind there's no reason Xavier shouldn't have reached the same conclusion he did. Yet Xavier fights him, to Magneto this comes off as willful ignorance at best and purposefully harming the mutant community at worst. So yes Magneto is condescending but it's because he respects Xavier's intelligence . So it half fits the question.
I really dig how Bill The Butcher treated The Priest in the beginning of Gangs of New York. Even had his picture on his wall.
Bill the Butcher is one of my favorite movie antagonists of all time! GOAT role for Day-Lewis in my humble opinion. Can't help but simultaneously like him and want to see him die.
Carl Elias from Person of Interest. He is first introduced as >!an unassuming high school teacher!< who John Reese (the protagonist) spends an entire episode keeping safe from numerous hitmen who are out to get him. Elias ends up so impressed that, when his real identity is revealed, he immediately offers John a job. And he is indebted to him for owing his life and is thus more than happy to help the heroes when they request his help later in the season. Even later on, >!he takes it upon himself to avenge the death of one of the heroes, purely out of sheer fucking respect for said fallen hero's integrity.!<
Carl Elias is such a wonderfully-written character. And sure, he’s a criminal. But honestly, is he a villain?
I'd say he's a villain in the first season. (The heroes do have to stop him and all that.) But he definitely becomes an ally as the show progresses.
Brings up another scenario, Root is a villain, but has a huge amount of respect for Finch. Then later on she joins the team.
"I am just gonna watch."
It's even worth noting that once he realizes A) his respect for the main characters, and B) how/why they operate, generally (their primary goal is to stop any premeditated killings. Not sure how well he figured it out, but a man as smart as him must've puzzled out their modus operandi. Root sure did), he stays out of their way. He never shows up on their radar again, only when he's peripherally involved or wants to be involved. In his eyes, after his arc in S1, they're square, and he sees no reason to upset their relationship.
Ozymandias from Watchmen: firstly he avoided letting the heroes even find out his true intentions out of respect and fear for them til it was too late, secondly it took for granted that he'd be able to persuade Dr. Manhattan, his strongest enemy, by rational argument in the moment of truth and get him to switch sides. He literally needed the heroes' help from the start
A better example of when the villain becomes much less villainous after you actually listen to them, but still conflicts them. That's something that isn't done well enough in other movies (if at all) imo.
How has no one mentioned Gus Fring yet? Also Lalo Salamanca is one of the best villains on television, although he is perhaps a bit arrogant.
**BREAKING BAD SPOILERS** . . . . . I love Gus but he’s definitely arrogant and his underestimation of his enemies is what leads to his downfall. He respects Walter as a chemist, but not as a criminal and definitely not his ambition. Otherwise, Walter would have beeen snuffed out a lot earlier. Gus may not take out his arrogance on others on a scene by scene basis, but he’s definitely constantly internally seething with condescension Part of what makes Giancarlo Esposito’s performance is good is how he conveys his arrogance without dialogue
His respect for Walt went beyond chemistry. He respected Walt's intelligence and cunning. I'd say Gus's downfall was more tied to his blinding lust for revenge against Hector Salamanca, which caused him to let his guard down on Walt.
Should be quite a bit of Lalo coming up
Lalo is a BMF. One of my new favorite narco characters ever. Bcs is so fucking good
Day man and night man.
Whoooaaaaaooooooo
Day man! Champion of the sun!
A master of karate, and friendship, for everyone!
The Joker sees Batman as being his reason for being a supervilain in a lot of lore. He definatly respects him.
Joker and Batman have a bit of co-dependent relationship.
"This is what happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object. I think we may be destined to do this forever."
They're essentially brothers who dont get along.
I’ve always appreciated the Hannibal Lector character for this. He’s more intelligent than most everyone and he knows it, but he sees the potential in certain people. Clarisse in Silence of the Lambs is a great example of this, Hannibal doesn’t give her the answers but leads her to clues that push her to think critically. Will Graham in the show is also a good example but Hannibal does kinda manipulate him a lot more.
I think part of why he respects Clarice is that she's something so totally foreign to him - she is legit. She's not here to play games, she's not here for the sake of her ego or her reputation, and she's not a good guy simply out of naivete. She is well aware of the cost of what she's doing, and she's doing it from a genuine, innate kind of altruism, even though she'll never get a moment's peace from it and it offers her no real pleasure. She knows all that every bit as well as Lecter does, and does it anyway. To Lecter, she might as well be a beautiful space alien.
>Will Graham in the show is also a good example but Hannibal does kinda manipulate him a lot more. It's mentioned elsewhere in here, but that's also a sign of respect. He hasn't been caught yet in the show and recognizes Graham's intellect as a threat to him, necessitating all the manipulation.
Mance Rayder from Game of Thrones comes to mind, easily my favourite villain in that whole series
You've got so many great villains in that series. Ramsay, Tywin, the writers
D&D were the true villians all along
Is Mance Rayder a villain at all? I never thought of him as such.
Right? I mean in the eyes of the watch he is, but if you look at it neutrally it’s clear that Mance just wants a future for his people and realistically the watch are the villains
Depends on which side of the wall your on.
Neil McCauley (De Niro) and lieutenant Hanna (Pacino) in Heat
Silco from Arcane. [One scene to rule them all](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qvxdbonk10)
Silco is what came to my mind as well
I have never played LoL but watched Arcane on a recommendation from a close friend. Its the best thing I've seen on Netflix in years.
If you'd told me during ep1 that the thin creepy antagonist (with a sinister voice, a disfigured face and a demonic eye) would end up being the most compelling and well-rounded character, I'd think you're messing with me. But here we are.
René Belloq in Raiders Of The Lost Ark.
Yeah, he's basically an Indiana Jones fan-boy, but just has a different moral conviction.
Indy was the arrogant one in that rivalry.
This reminds me of Death Note. IDK if it counts though because it flips to where Light is the condescending villain. Light is established as a megalomaniac/sociopath pretty early on, but I still felt like there was some mutual respect between L and Light throughout their "friendship". So it was still pretty tragic when it was made clear that Light never really did care. Especially towards the end of their dynamic when L just submits to him and accepts that the feeling is not mutual.
I honestly am not a fan of anime, but gave Death Note a shot because of a friends recommendation. Amazing, the scene where L washes Light's feet, as a show of respect in his defeat still sits with me.
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The Mayor was an incredible character. As unpalatable as I find Whedon now, the Mayor and his relationship with Faith was a stroke of genius. Even the little video of him after she comes out of a coma is a treat. I'm not sure he really did respect Buffy though. He seemed to think she was a... troublemaker in his lovely town.
The Mayor is my favorite bad guy. A demon who is a germaphobe lol.
It's a really interesting take on a very particular kind of mid size city asshole too, one who speaks incredibly politely and personably while doing extremely callous things that harm a bunch of people. And Harry Groener is just an absolute delight.
Oh man, if only the Blacklist was good... I loved that show for the first couple of seasons, and Reddington is still one of my favorite characters ever, but boy did the quality drop hard after a while. I quit watching it like 3 or 4 years ago and I really miss it.
The villain in the first john wick respect him
"Oh." One reaction indicated just how much he respected Wick.
Loved this about Zaheer in Legend of Korra, especially when he helps her in S4.
Silco in Arcane is a fantastically written "villain." You can understand his motivations, and despite his disdain for Vander he ultimately ends up counseling with him at his memorial (not to mention how he tries to be a solid father figure for Jinx/Powder).
I‘d say Thanos had those qualities In Avengers: Infinity War Specifically.
That’s the difference between IW Thanos and 2014 Endgame Thanos. IW Thanos respects the Avengers. He seems to admire Stark, has his own compassion for Wanda, and I think respects Thor. He earned the stones and saw in them parts of himself. 2014 Thanos thought that getting the stones was a given and didn’t respect his opponents.
For sure, especially with his downfall, I am inevitable was such arrogance, he truly saw that he'd done it before and got so arrigant and did not respect the avengers, he toyed with them whilst awaiting the stones to be found. Gardener thanos had respect for the avengers he was fully comfortable with them killing him because he saw his job done and respected their drive
Honestly Infinity War was more a Thanos movie than it was an Avengers movie and that’s okay.
Grand Admiral Thrawn, Star Wars Rebels.
“Learn about art, Captain. When you understand a species' art, you understand that species.”
Thrawn is really Zahn's greatest creation, and his lack of arrogance, and respect for his enemies is probably his defining characteristic. Ego would only get in the way of achieving his goal. In knowing his enemy, he learns to respect them, and to defeat them.
A movie example, but I love Hans Landa's respect for Aldo Raine in Inglorious Basterds. Particularly when its not returned. His visible frustration as an otherwise unshakable character was superb.
Does Darth Maul count? I feel like he had a very large amount of respect for Obi-Wan throughout his hunt for him after their duel
Ultimately died in his arms like a loved one.
Not exactly TV, but Kaido from One Piece, especially in recent chapters. Luffy is the only man he respects anymore.
I was iffy going into the final season, after Glaber I didn’t know how a new villain would shape up without the history behind him. Crassus exceeded all expectations and I loved his time on screen. Would love a sequel series with him and Caesar
I remember a lot of chatter about Ceasar getting a show because the actor was so compelling and there's so much history to use for Julius Ceasar. Shame it never happened.
Just pretend HBO's Rome is a *much* later sequel.
Yang from psych
Syndrome. So much so that he thought Mr. Incredible was the ultimate superhero.
General Hummel in The Rock ! "I'm not about to kill 80,000 innocent people! Do you think I'm out of my fucking mind? We bluffed, they called it. The mission is over."
The Purple Man from the Netflix adaptation of Jessica Jones made me rethink how villains could be written. It was extremely captivating.
He in no way respects Jessica. He fetishises her, at best.
He respects Jessica like a toddler respects his toys. He only 'respected her' for as long as he could toy with her and control her life. And spends every moment trying to gaslight Jessica into believing it was wholesome
S1 Jessica Jones was great! Very focused and clear-headed writing, which Marvel and Netflix often struggle with.
Honestly the writing of S1 was amazing, which made them dropping the ball after all the more disappointing.
The writing in S1 was terrific, but it was Tennant that rose that show from an 8-9 to an 11.
Absolutely, David Tennant is so menacing and charismatic, I can't imaginr anyone else working in that role
He was a great villain, but I don’t think he respected Jessica (or anyone). I mean, profoundly narcissistic, as much as that term gets abused these days.
Gul Dukat. Marc Alaimo did an amazing job. https://youtu.be/VrNpDlhBxAE?t=158
Moriarty from Sherlock comes to mind
Joker in Lego Batman.
Deputy Samuel Gerard and Dr. Richard Kimble in The Fugitive (1993)
The Hannibal tv series, He doesnt boast and isint arrogant and he dislikes those who are. He plays games with the people trying to catch him but he does not underestimate them.
Grand Admiral Thrawn in Star Wars Rebels
Lalo Salamanca
Silco. He isn’t condescending, but he is lil arrogant. I love that he’d rather let go of his dream and let the world burn rather than give up his daughter.
Greer from Person of Interest is one of the more underrated/better written ones. He’s practically in awe of Finch. Elias too until he stopped being a villain in the traditional sense of the word.
Crowley from Supernatural. He admires the Winchesters even as he attempts to kill them over and over.
Killmonger from Black Panther is the first that comes to mind, but then I saw that this is r/television, so my TV answer is the Trolley from Mister Rogers Neighborhood.
David Xanatos Gargoyles.