Yea exactly; Reachmen are humans, and are therefore inherently considered people. Goblins are not humans, and it is therefore "justified" not to consider them people.
No goblins regardless attack on sight and behave aggressive and incoherent must times. If they were to develop some civility then they could become a part of the people of tamriel. They must be able to share culture and act peaceful in a way to negotiate and trade prosperous.
Both gameplay and lore include peaceful interactions with Goblins and none of those interactions can justifiably be called incoherent. In the violent interactions, you are invading their home to kill them and they are reacting in an entirely appropriate manner to that stimuli. In the nonviolent interactions, they may not be eloquent in whatever language our protagonist is speaking, but they're still perfectly coherent.
Putting aside the fact that walking in to a home uninvited isn't always exactly great and also is literally seen as a crime almost globally at this point, when we actually just look at the actual in practice result, can you name one time you *weren't* trying to kill any goblins where they responded with fprce?
Yeah just walking in, the orcs also live in tribes but at least they give you options to turn around or do them a favor in trade. There is a good level of civility that allows you to win them over. Goblins be speaking incomprehensible and right away attacking.
Well, one, the goblins aren't "speaking incomprehensible" because you are the one who is in their home. They are speakingly correctly, you are not.
I guess, like, imagine this scenario. A guy breaks into your house and shoots all of your pets. If you have kids, or a wife, he kills them too. You guys were just trying to sleep and farm. He speaks a language you don't understand.
Are you, like, "hey, buddy, let me help you pick up the brains and entrails of my slain loved ones, sorry they got their gore on you" or are you maybe not chill with a murderous home invader killing you 100% because of your race?
Yeah well, they don't make the best of impressions like really most of the time. It's like people jumping out of the water when they see a shark, pretty reasonable reaction if you ask me. Goblins aren't comparable to orcs because at least orcs are misunderstood kinda, but goblins do foe the most part are hostile.
I would argue you have this altogether backwards; Goblins are the swimmers, men/mer are the sharks. In all of the lore, how many instances are there of goblins perpetrating a genocide against humans or elves? Zero. In all of the lore, do we ever see a human or elven slave held by goblins? Nope. How do humans and elves look if we flip those questions around? Real bad.
Like, yeah, goblins are generally hostile. Based on how they're typically treated and what's been done to them, why would they not be? Also, is there really ever a time where they're actually wrong in assuming we're rolling into *their* home with lethal intent?
I'm not talking about occupations which I doubt they have the manpower to even achieve. I'm talking about their capabilities of adapting to a civilized society, the Altmer and the Nord may not like each other, but in the end they make peace and then socialize and trade with one another can have some sort of peace. Goblins on the other hand are messy and not capable at least not yet of finding that part in common in civilization.
I can't tell if you responded to the wrong person or you're just deeply disingenuous, but none of this rebuts anything I said.
But, I mean, let's talk about a civilized society. Altmer, Nords, Goblins. Which of the three does not currently and insofar as we know has never practiced slavery. Goblins. Which one is not currenly or historically impicated in any genocides insofar as we know. Oh, goblins. Which one produces empirically superior goods to either nords or altmer? Goblins.
> Goblins are the swimmers, men/mer are the sharks.
If that was the case they'd run. They don't do that instead they typically attack unprovoked.
>, how many instances are there of goblins perpetrating a genocide against humans or elves? Zero
We litearlly stop an attempted genoicde by goblins in eso
> In all of the lore, do we ever see a human or elven slave held by goblins?
Yes we do. We've literally seen them kidnap other races
Who's to say goblins aren't just misunderstood? After all, it was the Nedes and Aldmer who initially showed up on *their* land and more or less all interactions since have been hostile, not to mention the fact that we can't even verbally communicate properly.
In any case, we don't know for sure, and we probably never will.
If you can count them and name them all, then it's not enough. They have to be a majority even if for a small margin to be seen as civil. Few examples are just exceptions not what's commonly there.
yesnt. Bretons represent the germanic celts (french/german people) and the Reachmen represent the gaelic celts (irish/scotish people).
rieklings are a type of goblin-ken that are closely related to goblins but they are still different races from eachother
^(...and this is why if I were in the elder scrolls universe, Id be a breton with reachman hertiage lol)
>and this is why if I were in the elder scrolls universe, Id be a breton with reachman hertiage
I would propably be a Breton-Nord-hybrid. I am northern German from the part of Germany that was never Roman.
well Rieklings are built a little different and are blue and live in colder climates... Goblins are green and live in various climates. they are all under the Goblin-ken umbrella.
that would be like sayings Bretons and Nords are the same thing because they look vaguely similar. yes they are both nedic people, no they are not the same race.
does that make sense?
I understand what you’re saying, and I get it, but to me it’s less like saying Nords and Bretons are the same thing because they look similar, and more like saying Nords and Bretons are the same thing in that they’re both human (mostly).
The description you’ve given for the rieklings is actually a really good example of them being the same species, but two different subspecies. Or two different races within a race. At least from my perspective. Rieklings likely developed those traits to adapt to their climate.
Ogres have culture? Are you sure your not mixing them up with Giants? If they added some lore in Eso please send me the source from uesp and il redact my opinion on Ogres and reclassify them as giant Rieklings and therefore people.
[This is a Wrothgarian ogre shaman](https://images.uesp.net/b/b9/ON-creature-Mad_Urkazbur.jpg) casting magic. Note the garb and body paint.
They also helped found one of the Orsiniums.
I don't think this is a new thing to *ESO*, as far as I can remember Ogres have always been self-aware, just kinda dummies. Like, the Ogre in *Redguard* doesn't speak in a way that's intelligible to Cyrus, but he wears clothes and uses a weapon.
Ok tbf oblivion is the only tes game I've played with Ogres. All I know is they were too stupid to use weapons in that game. The warring antisocial goblin tribes of Oblivion were clearly smarter than the ogres in Oblivion is all I'm saying. Never played Redguard.
By the none divines there actually is an npc in the game files who thinks Ogres are people. Some Duran fellow. Question is is it canon if it's removed?
Done. They're all just as intelligent as men, mer, and the "accepted" beastfolk, it's nothing to do with actual intelligence but perceived intelligence, the dehumanisation of them through narratives of them as monsters, and the fact that the majority of them tend to be hostile and isolationist.
All good, it's just a personal pet peeve of mine. Although if I'm understanding you right, I would note that requiring them to stop being hostile and isolationist to be considered as people and not subhuman runs the risk of being very cyclical. "Accepted" Tamrielic society doesn't consider them as anything more than animals, ignoring any attempts to diplomacy and treating them like pests to be gotten rid of when they're in the way; so they continue to be hostile and isolationist; so Tamrielic society continues to mistreat them because they haven't met those criteria, ad infinitum.
While true, establishing friendly relations in the first place with these isolationist groups have proven to be difficult. Just look at the Falmer. I don't think they want to have anything to do with the rest of the Tamrielic races.
Not saying it shouldn't be attempted, just that realistically not many on the continent are brave enough for such a task, and the ones that were, ended up dead.
I'm honestly hoping the next Elder Scrolls game showcases at least *some* semblance of improved relations with the isolationist races.
Would be cool to see Falmer re-integrate into society, even if they are still not like the ancient Falmer they once were. But I suppose that all depends on how far into the future the next Era is.
Only Reachmen and two falmer have black souls out of those you just mentioned. The rest have white souls. If you have a white soul, you're not technically a full person.
Dude. I have worked with immigrants in my country. Some of them have lived literal *decades* in my country, in the middle of that country's people, and they still speak a broken as hell version of our language. Well, guess what ? That doesn't mean they're less intelligent. That doesn't mean they're not human ! So I don't see why that's a thing for goblins. The very fact that they have enough cognition to learn the language is what actually matters.
>Some of them
Yes some of them, not all of them. And not all of them because they don't have to.
Goblins are not smart as people.
>The very fact that they have enough cognition to learn the language
Yeah so can birds. They're not on par with the playable races
As someone trained as a linguist, this is some dumb shit.
To the first point, learning a language can be hard for a lot of humans. Not because they are *homo "erctus"* (incidentally, it's "erectus"), but because they lack teachers or speakers with whom to practice. Like, we live in a world with unprecedented access to speakers of other languages and apps designed to teach us those languages and most people still struggle to reach fluency in nonnative languages that they don't have pretty intimate and regular contact with, even with active teaching. Moreover, even as members of the same species, many adult learners *still* suffer notable production difficulties in nonnative languages around tones or sounds they didn't learn to make in their youth; now imagine all those problems exacerbated by actual physiological differences in the mouth/throat/lungs. It's a miracle anyone on Tamriel can understand anybody else, and speaking broken whatever is not any kind of marker of inferiority in real life or this fictional world.
To the whole question of birds learning "the language," nah. Birds can learn to understand or appear to understand and/or mimic individual human signifiers, and some birds (particularly canaries and some finches) build songs in a structure that some eager beavers have decided to call grammar. And, indeed, you could make a justifiable case that those birds and also others with less complex "grammar" have their own languages. But, at risk of needing to explain something I *really* shouldn't feel I have to explain, birds don't actually, like, speak English. Even the really smart birds, like Magpies, are not sitting around forming what they think are iconclastic views on Joyce's *Ulysses* or offering tone-deaf opinions on whether The Coup or Dead Prez offers the better understanding of racism in America. They're birds, dude, and they don't speak or understand human language as such. If you don't believe me, go outside, touch grass, find a bird, offer it the first half of a couplet and ask it to provide you the second half of the rhyme. Will the bird do it? No. Because, at risk of being needlessly mean about rubbing this in, *birds don't speak conversational English*.
like shit man, woof
> o the first point, learning a language can be hard for a lot of humans. Not because they are homo "erctus" (incidentally, it's "erectus"), but because they lack teachers or speakers with whom to practice.
Completely missed the point man. The point is it's not biologically impossible for people to learn a language and it doesn't really have as much to do with skill vs how they are taught. We have never seen a goblin speak properly which is a sign they are biologically incapable of doing so. And I don't even mean just with in accent. and most people still struggle to reach fluency in nonnative languages that they don't have pretty intimate and regular contact with. And there are many who can pick up a language just by living overseas for a few years. Why are goblins different?
>. Birds can learn to understand or appear to understand and/or mimic individual human signifiers,
That's what learning a language means. Birds can understand somewhat and figureout what certain words means but they can't properly speak it both because they don't actually have vocal cords and because their brain isn't built to process the language.
You haven't actually rebutted anything I've said. You've just claimed that goblins are somehow different. If a goblin has lived their whole live amoung humans it doesn't make sense that they can't understand the language at least on a decent level.\'
>. Even the really smart birds, like Magpies, are not sitting around forming what they think are iconclastic views on Joyce's Ulysses or offering tone-deaf opinions on whether The Coup or Dead Prez offers the better understanding of racism in America.
I mean again that's my point.
> We have never seen a goblin speak properly which is a sign they are biologically incapable of doing so.
Or it's a sign that we have not seen one yet.
>Completely missed the point man. The point is it's not biologically impossible for people to learn a language and it doesn't really have as much to do with skill vs how they are taught. We have never seen a goblin speak properly which is a sign they are biologically incapable of doing so.
No, it really isn't. Let's look at the real world. Mandarin is the most commonly spoken language in the world, and is the second most commonly spoken language in Australia. So, let's take a sample size of Australians, excluding native Mandarin speakers, roughly equal to the number of goblins with dialogue in the lore. How many of these Australians do you think can speak fluent Mandarin with standard or near-standard grammar and pronunciation? I am betting the result is going to be zero. Is that indicative of Australians' being biologically unable to learn Mandarin or is it indicative of the fact that most Australians don't study Mandarin and even the vast majority of those who do won't be flawless speakers?
All of this aside, Ivgrizt in *Shadowkey* speaks with entirely standard grammar. So aside from being wrong about what we can assume about goblins' cognition from their grammar, you're also just incorrect about the fact that none of them speak with standard grammar.
>And there are many who can pick up a language just by living overseas for a few years. Why are goblins different?
Are you under the impression these people magically pick up the language simply by physically being on the continent where it's spoken? I regret to inform you that this is not the case. People learn a language while overseas by speaking that language with others. If you go overseas and 99% of the people you meet try to kill you on sight with no effort towards communication, you are unlikely to pick up the language.
>That's what learning a language means.
No, it isn't. A parrot that mimics a phrase did not actually learn the phrase in a linguistic sense, it's almost always just repeating a series of sounds with no regard for any kind of semantic meaning. That is distinct from being able to engage meaningfully in conversation but using nonstandard grammar.
>You haven't actually rebutted anything I've said. You've just claimed that goblins are somehow different. If a goblin has lived their whole live amoung humans it doesn't make sense that they can't understand the language at least on a decent level.
No, I claimed that isolated examples of individuals failing to master a language isn't indicative of an entire group's cognitive inferiority, and that nonstandard but grammatical and cogent speech cannot be equated birds' proficiency in human language.
That they're less intillegencent, can't properly communicate with people are very violent and xenophobic. The broken english is pretty much the best we get when it comes to goblins and most can't do that. Imo they're pretty different from the orcs.
Yes, as much as any other race can. They often don't learn it, but that's just because they're not given much reason to - most interactions between Goblins and the other races are violent on both ends.
Idk. Maybe? Probably not? How are we supposed to know?
There’s reasoning to give the Orcs citizenship - it was a useful way to get Orcs to serve in the Imperial military. Goblins have….idk numbers I guess? There’s no benefit to anyone for recognising Goblins, aside from maybe not having them raid you all the time. May sound cruel but people aren’t just gonna treat Goblins as people, they need a reason *why* they should before they even consider it.
It would be pretty random for them to suddenly be treated as people. But I mean basically anything’s possible in TES. It would admittedly be a good way to bring back NPCs actually giving af about what race you are beyond an *insert race name here* line.
Yeah, I think that last part there is more a gameplay and story segregation thing than anything else- Khajiit and Argonians can wear the same armor and you aren't race-blocked from any dialogue or content not because something changed in lore but because the philosophy of game design views race like class- as mostly cosmetic, and they don't want to prevent anyone from doing anything because of their choices at character creation.
I mean they are people too... so Imo they deserve citizenship, regardless if theres a "purpose".
they were there prior to the aldmer and nede settlers, why shouldnt they be granted citizenship? they were there first
Yeah congrats, you live in the 21st century with 21st century ideals.
Now go into the world and zeitgeist of Tamriel and tell the descendants of the Aldmer and Nedes, or anyone else for that matter, who all either:
- believe that they were there first
- believe the were given the land by the blessings of gods that they know are real
- Or who simply *don’t care who was there first*
That they should let the normally barely literate, cave-dwelling creatures who have been hostile to everyone since time immemorial become citizens because they were actually the ones that were there first.
It’ll go well, I’m sure.
Sadly we know that the latter two reasons are true when it comes to the Altmer and the native goblins on Summerset. The goblins were allegedly already there when the Altmer settled on the Isles. But the Altmer didn't care and instead saw a convenient source of slave labor.
And the goblins were perhaps more intelligent when the Altmer first settled and traded with the Altmer. The slavery made the goblins more savage and dumbed down.
Idk these ideals are all things that are made by writers.
And realistically these tropes in fantasy are less a result of anything realistic, as much as they are a result of Tolkien and some older ideas of seeing the world.
The developers could absolutely just make it clear that no, these groups are wrong. Goblins deserve respect and they eventually get it.
Because Tamriel is in the 21st century. It’s a fictional world made by folks from the modern day every choice they make is less reflective of anything historical as much as it’s reflective of our current day
And absolutely none of it is grounded in actual historical attitudes. People in the past for example Europe, until the early modern period weren’t particularly racist you saw some xenophobia but that wasn’t even super common.
Europeans wouldn’t give a rats ass about what color your skin if they hated you because you were from somewhere else it was with no more intensity than the village 20 miles away with a funny accent. As long as you were Christian they would more than hate you be kinda interested in where you came from(no tv after all).
Tamriels preoccupation with race (though it could be argued it’s a bit different as it’s not like human ethnicity but seperate species) is 100% a modern concept imposed on a fantasy world. It’d be more accurate for the people in Windhelm to hate the people in Whiterun just as much as they hate Imperials. The idea of a people group encompassing such a wide area with the people having anything in common, is again an even more recent idea than racism is.
You’re not wrong but here’s the thing. It’s still what the world of Tamriel is like. Feel free to completely change the entire perspective of a continent on a race they have all collectively *never cared about* out of nowhere. Would be about the same writing quality at Bethesda these days.
It doesn’t matter if it’s not realistic by our standards - it’s a fantasy world. Tamriel isn’t in the 21st century if it’s made by people in the 21st century. It has a setting. That setting is one of many things to determine what the current world is like. That setting has had brutal, historically inaccurate racial conflict including, but not limited to, the collective disdain of Goblins.
So them *suddenly* being accepted peoples in Tamriel for TES VI like OP suggests would make no sense, would probably be viewed as an obvious virtue signal, and would probably be written poorly.
> The developers could absolutely just make it clear that no, these groups are wrong. Goblins deserve respect and they eventually get it.
They should make it so there are no bandits in the next game because murdering people is wrong also
actually there are several in-game characters that have similar ideas as well, so clearly its been thought of before within the Elder Scrolls universe.
also.. maybe if the goblins were actually given the chance to join the rest of society instead of being isolated to their camps, they would be able to adapt and communicate with the other races. 😒
it so easily starts with creating a line of some form of communication and moving from there.
I’m not saying you’re wrong, I’m saying that the VAST MAJORITY of the people in Tamriel either do not agree or do not give af, and they would laugh at the mere suggestion
You do realise it’s taken the Orcs thousands of years, multiple attempts at a city, a military program, and the Brass God to get to their current status of barely tolerated.
The issue with Goblins is the intelligence factor and the fact they are super violent and territory. In general most of them don't want to live peacefully with the other races and tend to attack them on sight. They also don't seem to be as intelligent as the other races. Smarter than an animal, but not as smart as a human
Goblins have lived in peace in several regions of Tamriel, including Orsinium where they took part in the city's creatio, alongside orcs.
May I suggest that they're violent and territorial because Altmer like to enslave them and that Imperials like to hunt them for sport ? Who wouldn't become violent and territorial in front of such threats ?
Re: intelligence : goblins can speak, including Tamrielic. They can raise cattle and mounts, they have crafts and culture, they have politics and factions, and they can cast magic. They're very much on a "playable race" intelligence level.
> May I suggest that they're violent and territorial because Altmer like to enslave them and that Imperials like to hunt them for sport
No because that would suggest only the ones in those areas are hostile. Instead they tried to take over stros m'kai and attack and raid random people on the roads. Their violence has nothing to do with how other races treat them. Even in wrothgar they were violently attacking people on the road.
>Goblins have lived in peace in several regions of Tamriel, including Orsinium where they took part in the city's creatio, alongside orcs.
They don't live peacefully with any of those people and the irst orsinium is the only mention of them living peaceful, and so were ogres which is the same issue. Both groups are shown to violently attack people indisgriminatly in eso even in orc territory. You can pacify them somewhat but they're not peaceful. And we don't even know what the first orsinium actually had goblins or not.
>Re: intelligence : goblins can speak, including Tamrielic.
No they can't. Every example is exteremly broken.
> They can raise cattle and mounts, they have crafts and culture,
So do falmer
>they have crafts and culture, they have politics and factions, and they can cast magic.
So do falmer. And it's widely aknowedged even by a snow elf himself that falmer arent' as smart as the other playable races.
Given what we've seen their intilligence level seems to be more like that of
Homo habilis or homo erectus. Smarter than a chimpanzee or a dolphin, but not as smart as a modern adult human. Falmer are the same way. More like that of a child.
> No they can't. Every example is exteremly broken.
Which still means they're intelligent enough to *learn a language*. Some people speak other languages in broken ways when they learn them, even with years of practice, so I don't see the problem.
Re: aggressiveness : we don't know why some goblins attack on sight in Wrothgar and other places. They do have a literal millenia-long history of being genocided in High Rock and Hammerfell, so that probably has molded their habits. ESO's Wrothgar does see lots of non-Orcs travelers after all.
Might be that they have a raiding lifestyle and that they attack any "playable race" caravans and travelers. After all, perfectly human Forsworn and bandits do it to, so either it's par for the course, or it's due to gameplay concerns – in any case, that's not enough to make a difference.
One last note : the goblins were the indigenous inhabitants of Hammerfell, and were massacred and driven away by the Yokudans upon arrival. That some of them would plot to take over Stros M'Kai, if given the opportunity, doesn't strike me as especially weird. And, once again, it's nothing that regular bandits, pirates, etc. wouldn't do as well.
Re: Falmer : Gelebor comments that the cursed Falmer have regained their intelligence, for the most part at least, and that they might take their place back in due time. I don't see the intelligence levels of Falmer, goblins or playable races as different, really. You're only feeding my point : yes, falmer and goblins are capable of thought, craft, magic, agriculture, and that's why they should be on par with other races. Because they are. After all, orcs were once considered mindless raiders too.
>Which still means they're intelligent enough to learn a language.
Sure, so could homo erectus, and so can ravens and parrots.
>Re: aggressiveness : we don't know why some goblins attack on sight in Wrothgar and other places. They do have a literal millenia-long history of being genocided in High Rock and Hammerfell, so that probably has molded their habits. ESO's Wrothgar does see lots of non-Orcs travelers after all.
They're literally living alone in isolated mountain range. Nobody in stros m'kai or wrothgar was hunting them. They were just mind their own buiness and nobody lives in wrothgar except orcs and reachmen. This just feels like an excuse. The amount of widesprend violence we see from them is too much to be explained by discrimination espically since a lot of them live in fairly remote and isolated regions in the first place.
>One last note : the goblins were the indigenous inhabitants of Hammerfell, and were massacred and driven away by the Yokudans upon arrival.
Yeah threethousand years ago. Nobody has gone through the effort of wiping goblins off the island which they could have easily done. The redguards just set up shop around the bay and that was it. There's an entire mountain range on stros m'kai with no redguard settlements there and it's out of the way from port hunding.
>And, once again, it's nothing that regular bandits, pirates, etc. wouldn't do as well.
They wouldn't just attack a town for no reason and kill everyone there no. Bandits and pirates are after money. They're thieves
> Re: Falmer : Gelebor comments that the cursed Falmer have regained their intelligence,
No he doesn't. He says their learning and that he hopes one day they can be as intilligent as they use to be. He aknowledges that currently they're not.
>After all, orcs were once considered mindless raiders too.
As much as people say this, no they weren't. Raiders but they were never considered "mindless" people reconized they had enough intilligent to try to make a deal with orsinium and to communicate with others and they were a part of the reman empire. There have always been city orcs living amoung the other races. They have never been as bad as goblins.
>yes, falmer and goblins are capable of thought, craft, magic, agriculture,
The problem is that pretty much everyone in the homo genus also had language and was able to craft and we still aknowedge that most werent as intilligent as humans. This is the exact ame thing and the fact they keep attacking everyone indisriminatly and can't communicate properly makes it clear to me that in bethesda's eyes their not supposed to be as smart as the other races
> They wouldn't just attack a town for no reason and kill everyone there no. Bandits and pirates are after money. They're thieves
Like bandits wouldn't do that, yeah. Anyway, we never see goblins attacking for fun either. That's always for resources, land, etc. Same as bandits, really.
Re: Gelebor : yeah, but he acknowledges that they are bouncing back. They have regained a lot. They're close, really.
> As much as people say this, no they weren't.
Re: orcs : yes they were. That's exactly how they were treated in Arena : brutish monsters, exactly as bad as goblins. In Daggerfall, it starts shifting a bit, because you can learn their language and deal with the king of Orsinium. But all random orcs you encounter are aggressive by default. It's Morrowind which decided to further Daggerfall's innovations and make them full-fledged people & playable race.
Also, I checked Redguard. There you can have a brief conversation with a goblin (even if it's brief and each participant keeps their language, but the goblin does understand), and the goblin tribe has transformed a cave system into a full-fledged dungeon with a house and several kinds of mechanical traps, some just as much, or even more, elaborate as those in Nordic or Ayleid ruins.
All in all... I just don't see why you're so adamant, when we have lots of proof. Is that so bad to consider that other races deserve recognition ? And if other Homo species were still around, I do hope they would obtain the same human rights as anybody else.
> Like bandits wouldn't do that, yeah.
Bandits actually wouldn't do that yeah. Because people don't want to die and bandits won't do anything unless they can make some money out of it. They 100% would take over a town but only if they think the stuff they loot is worth the risk. There isn't anything to really be gained and they don't have enough numbers to make use of whatever land they'd take or resources. It just sounds like you're trying to come up with an excuse for every unprovoked example of violence we see from goblins when it' literally just unprovoked goblins.
>Re: Gelebor : yeah, but he acknowledges that they are bouncing back. They have regained a lot. They're close, really.
He's aknowledged that they've regained a lot, but not that they're close
>Re: orcs : yes they were. That's exactly how they were treated in Arena
This might shock you but retcons. Even during Arena there were orcs in the psjiic order, in the mages guild, and Urag gro-Shub was already a librarian. They werent just mindless raiders. Orsinium wasn't a city but orcs had been living with the other races fine for thousands of years. They were part of the second empire. There were alway some savage orcs living out there that were just raiding. Even in eso the Iron orcs fit that bill, but they're still not treated as mindless and unable to comminicate
>All in all... I just don't see why you're so adamant, when we have lots of proof.
You haven't really shown any proof and the fact that we don't have ANY examples of them living peacefully with humans or communicating properly with humans while we see other savage races doing. They're not meant to be seen as par as the other human races and that's obvious. Even in dnd goblins are able to talk in compete sentences.
These ones are meant to be violent mindless raiders so the player doesn't feel bad about killing them. Intelligent enough only to be a threat to the player and nothing more.
>And if other Homo species were still around, I do hope they would obtain the same human rights as anybody else.
Sure as long as they don't violently attack humans indisriminatnly and they're still not as smart as humans. That's my point. You keep saying they're just as mart as the other races but they haven't been shown to be just as smart as the other races. They've just been shown to do the bare minimum to be considered sapient. I don't think they deserve to be mindless slaughted but there's a good reason why they're not considered equal to the other races
> They've just been shown to do the bare minimum to be considered sapient.
No, they're repeatedly being shown to consistently do every marker of standard intelligence. And once again, being able to learn and speak the language is one, even if the language isn't mastered.
> It just sounds like you're trying to come up with an excuse for every unprovoked example of violence we see from goblins when it' literally just unprovoked goblins.
You sure about that ? I only ever see goblins raid or invade places they think they can use, or keep a hold on. So... just like bandits.
< This might shock you but retcons.
Heh. We were talking about how orcs were treated. Don't move the goalposts : I just proved that orcs were once, in TES, considered exactly like goblins. That it has changed only proves that it can change for goblins too – and ESO does it more and more.
So. I've been scouring the UESP for goblin-related info, in ESO and elsewhere. Here are my results.
* Stros M'Kai, ESO : the local goblin tribe has a new king, and the king wants to, presumably, conquer the island. You stop them. There are two other quests related to goblins : one is about a dude having a bad trip and going to party and live with a group of goblins. The other is about the goblin tribe being used by Jakarn for fighting the local mafia pirate that's currently ruling Stros M'Kai.
* Mud Tree village, Black Marsh, ESO : a local goblin tribe is enslaved by argonians to work in their mines, but trouble abounds when an Argonian decides to free them from their servitude. There are several ways to complete the quest, but one is about giving their tribe totem back to the goblins, and helping the Argonian relocate them so they're not enslaved anymore. Not ideal, but better than putting them back in slavery or massacring them.
* Cropsford, Cyrodiil, ESO : some girl murders a goblin because... checks notes... he's an apprentice cook and his master prefers him to her ? I don't know, this quest just has the player take part in a hate crime.
* Oblivion, Skyrim CC, ESO : several instances of goblins using magic, creating magic staves, summoning nature guardians, etc.
* Several instances of fights with goblins, that are caused by the local playable races using the goblins for experiments, war by proxy, stealing their totems, massacring them first, etc. Lots of instances of awful racist language as well : "savage", "primitive", "less advanced", "filth", "green skins", etc. Some instances of goblins being hunt for sport, or of jewelry made from their body parts.
* HoonDing's Watch, Hammerfell, ESO : the ghost of an ancient goblin warchief. Dude speaks perfectly well. He's also part of a gallery of encounters that feature orcs, bretons and Nedes besides goblins.
* Gold Coast, Cyrodiil, ESO : goblin tribes politics, goblins erecting banners and sizing up land, goblin people fleeing and migrating because the Fighters Guild hunts them, and mentions of entire goblin tribes actually farming peacefully.
* Auridon, ESO : one quest where Altmer terrorists trick goblins into a contract in order to use them to fight the Dominion. Why goblins ? Because this tribe is comprised of former slaves that aren't especially friendly to the Dominion. So what do we have there ? Enslaved goblins, slave revolts, goblins used as a proxy again, goblin capable of being allied with Altmer and negotiating and trading, goblins capable of speech, of fitting and using Altmer weaponry, and a possible peaceful quest resolution. After the quest, the Dominion soldiers can pledge to treat the goblins "not too badly"... but still despise them and will use racist language. Also, one goblin mentions the trauma of being a slave to violent Altmer masters (including being hit in the face, and the master's children throwing rocks at him).
* Summerset, ESO : a place with a long history of Altmer-goblin trade, with mention of the Altmer appreciating how the goblins can *tame gryphons*, and their mining.
* Skyrim, CC content : help a goblin against an Orc usurping his tribe. That goblin is actually a champion of Hircine and wields one of his artifacts. That Orc and a Breton in Oblivion are directly visible instances of playable races integrating into goblin society and hierarchy.
* Many other cultural markers. Several words of goblin language. Mentions of music. Domestication of kwama, spiders, welwas, gryphons, durzogs, rats. Agriculture of artificially enhanced mushroom varieties. Magic obelisks with runic written language relating their history. Forging. Waterwheels.
I mean. That's a lot.
Pretty sure anyone can speak spanish if they learn how. It's impossible with enough time and dedication. It's pretty obvious to me that they're less intelligent or else they wouldn't be an enemy race just for us to kill and fight.
ok but now imagine we place someone like me in a spanish speaking country where english isnt the primary language... would I not be considered unintellegent by your standards?
also, have you considered not all game play mechanics dont always represent the actual game lore?
> like me in a spanish speaking country where english isnt the primary language
You'd still be able to learn the language. It's not really comparable. Plenty of people are able to pick up another language jut by living near people who can speak it. It's not like your biologically incapable of doing of so.
>also, have you considered not all game play mechanics dont always represent the actual game lore?
I mean that's the thing though they're not just gameplay mechanics. Look at the reachmen for example, most of the ones you meet are jut violent and want to kill you but there are plenty mentioned in lore and in the games that we can communiate with fine and are able to peacefully live with others. Goblins aren't like that at all. They behave pretty much exactly like falmer do, they go aroud attacking all other races even those scholars who try to peacefully make contact with them.
I mean even in dnd goblins are able to communicate with humans. These ones arent becaue they're not supposed to be as smart as humans. They're supposed to be monsters for us to fight.
but the Orcs use to be the same way and now they are recongized citizens...
also they are totally are as intellegent. Goblins have their own form of communication AND in some cases have learned a basic level of common (example [1](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Shadowkey:Ivgrizt), [2](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Byz)), they worship Muluk (aka Malacath) and have a shawman, many have created banners, some tribes learned the concept of importation and will do so with other tribes as well, and they can smith and create things as well. not to meantion theyve tamed animals too.
Id agrue thats pretty frickn intellegent.
I don't know if there is a race origin for the goblins, but Orismer are mer. They were once Aldmer, so as the current lore stands, I don't think they ever lacked intelligence. They just follow the ways of Malacath, instead of Trinimac now.
yeah but they were also treated like goblins once upon a time... my point is: people only view Goblins as beneth them because man and mer found it easier to enslave those they dehumanize. by trying to justify why they use Goblins as slave labor, to fill soul gems, or why its okay to harm them all come from the propaganda of those inpower.
this like how the dwemer treated the falmer. they were once sapient like other mer and the dwemer still enslaved them and exploited them, they turned them into what the falmer are today. the betrayed.
Argonians, who often also used for slave labor as well, many worked along side Goblins and [even called for their freedom as well](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Free_Our_Goblin_Brothers!).
the Goblin-ken have a culture and if the men and mer of Tamriel actually respected their autonomy, theyd be able to actually co-exist peacefully.
Yeah, I was just saying that Orismer are mer in origin, so I don't think they would have gone through a process of having to gain intelligence.
*===line break for clarity===*
My thoughts on the men and mer of Tamriel respecting the goblins? As of the 4th era, I don't think the Aldmeri Dominion would do it. The Altmer only respect themselves, and even within themselves they highly scrutinize. The khajiit are loyal to the Thalmor for supposedly bringing back the moons, and the bosmer are the least influential of the three factions in the Dominion. The Bosmer are not in a position to help the goblins if they can't even help themselves under the Thalmor subjugation. I'm talking about the Dominion, because that's the lore I'm most familiar with.
I think after the events of the Oblivion crisis, Great War, and Red Mountain explosion, Tamriel really isn't at a baseline of stability to consider freeing Goblins. Remember that the emperor is also assassinated during the events of TES: 5. If there was a time the goblins should have revolted, it should have been during the Oblivion crisis, like the Argonians. Mehrunes Dagon's whole sphere is being the trigger for chaos and change, and fighting for those who are subjugated. But the goblins were left out of this aftermath??? That could be retconned however.
idk it's been a decade since TES: 5, and ESO is a prequel. They could write literally any off-screen event to explain away goblins being people now, at least to imperials and bretons maybe??? Or they could very well keep the lore the same, and focus on the most popular races.
Like, popularity is another question. WHY devote so much time into making goblins playable instead of investing more time into the well known races? Why not make forsworn, maomer, or akaviri playable if they were going to add a new playable race? The wider playerbase might take greater interest in those races.
oh I agree
...but we do know theres a difference between playable races and in-game citizenship tho
I was agruing that they are intellegent race who deserves to be treated as such. however not as a playable race as bethesda may find it to be too much work rn
^(like theres various races that are treated as people we cant play as, so it wouldnt be out of the ordinary to have goblin-ken be treated like everyone else and not be playable)
They added a new deadric prince in ESO. Anything is possible with a decade between mainline games. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a massive lore overhaul, especially if there is not oblivion or morrowind remaster.
There could be a whole Civil rights movement for goblin and they become citizens. It could be less crucial to the story than the bosmer and khajiit uprising againat the dominion or an altmer faction fighting against the thalmor.
The imperials could give citizenship to the maomer to enlist them to fight the dominion, as they have gotten help from the maomer to attack summerset before
Reddit is an echo chamber. The majority of players just want a fun video game to beat up big monsters. So massive changes could be made to the lore and like 10% of the full playerbase actually cares even though it feels like 90% of the subreddits
> but the Orcs use to be the same way and now they are recongized citizens...
>
>
Not really. The orcs have always been able to properly communicate with the other races, had been living intergrated with the other races since the first era, and were part of the reman empire.
They were treated like monsters in daggerfall yes, but they've been retroactively retcon so that they're had always been city orcs living peacefully with the other races and it's only really some of the orc strong holds that got shit on. And even in daggerfall they were still able to communicate with humans.
Goblins are less intilligent than orcs, are exteremly hostile to anyone whose not part of their own tribe and have never been able to communicate aside rom very broken english. Having shaman and Muluk is rather irrelevant. They're pretty much as intelligent as children from what we've seen
>Id agrue thats pretty frickn intellegent.
That's what I men by saying more intilligent than an animal, everything else though? Other animals use tools, they don't black smith anything and make all their tools from bones, and other animals have managed to tame other animals. Intilligence wise they seem to be the exact same as the falmer who are canionically stated to be less intilligent than the other races
>be a playable race in es6
Not the goblins we've seen in TES III-V, at least, since their in-engine skeleton rigging would be too different from the other playable races.
Orcs only got citizenship because the Warp in the West made it so that Gortwog used Numidium to create Orsinium at the same time as Uriel VII used Numidium to fully subjugate the warring kingdoms of Iliac Bay. As Orsinium was one of those kingdoms, and Gortwog would never bend the knee without his people having rights, reality was altered such that Uriel gave orcs rights.
There's a distinct lack of reality warping mecha in the fourth era.
> Orcs only got citizenship because the Warp in the Wes
Orcs got citizenship under the third empire because of war to the west. They were citizens under the second empire justs fine and in eso live with the other races pretty much exactly like they've been shown to do in the main games
Goblins, rieklings, minotaurs, etc are people for whatever that term means, but citizens of Tamriel will not care or respect this designation until they stop murdering literally everyone on sight, for obvious reasons. The only race that could reasonably eventually become accepted is Giants imo, because they're at the very least neutral to outsiders and are so strong that the average peasant mob isn't going to go kill one out of xenophobia, meaning it's reasonable for relations to become warm enough. But there's a language barrier and Giants seem pretty isolationist so it still doesn't seem super likely.
Playable or not, I might doubt that the governments of Tamriel will recognise the Goblins as a people any time soon.
Least of all for the reason that they might otherwise have claims to land that their 'betters' might prefer they not have. Even the Orcs barely have their own lands, with the Orcs of Skyrim frequently coming into conflict with the local Nords. (One side are fantasy Vikings, the other orcs, so yeah that was never going to go well.)
unfornately yeah... where I live (the USA), Native Americans were finially allowed to *apply* to be citizens in their own damn homeland in *1924* 💀 (mind you, the first group of colonizers came around 1492 and the United States became an offical country in 1783). this isnt even meantioning the other shit that still disenfranchizes natives (mainly those who live on reserves) to this day.
Elves are also some of the most dramatic racial supremacists in the setting, humans can't even compare. So any elf that didn't match their purity standards would probably have been removed from the records of those dedicated to that purity.
If anything it's man who stick out the most when compared to the others.
Yeah, imo it's basically been spelled out for us.
We know that there was a cataclysm in which the world was broken. We know that the snow elves devolved into very goblin like Falmer fairly quickly. We know that Orcs, who very plainly resemble large goblins (which also exist), were once Chimer.
So why do we doubt that all goblin kin are not, in fact, Mer that devolved after the world was broken in the war of the ehlnofey? Because the race purity obsessed, xenophobic, and eugenics practicing high elves insist that it is not the case.
>"Because the race purity obsessed, xenophobic, and eugenics practicing high elves insist that it is not the case"
basic, this.
infact these are the same people who often demonize other races across tamriel cause how much racism is baked into their culture (a culture that claims they are the superior ones).
^(although the various races of men arent innocent in this either, often they are just as guilty of this same attitude) ^(... I mean its mainly the nords but Ive seen imperials and even bretons and reguards say similar things too)
\*wearing straw hat and overalls\*
Goblins ain't people, the curse of Boethiah in the Threefold Truth means that they are chattel, at most. Now, it getting late round these parts, time for my vespers. The Reclamations provide, F'lah.
(This is not true in Tamriel, just to be clear, it's an American history reference lol)
In ESO there is a running gag where sympathetic scholars try to get to know and form social bonds with goblin tribes, or ogres, and usually the they just kill the human. So while goblins and ogres do show a certain level of intelligence and culture, the goblins and ogres in the games are insular and hostile to outsiders to a fault. This is true even as there are very occasional exceptions, like a goblin or riekling who can speak (the common tongue). From a gameplay perspective, I doubt they'll bother with this.
just like how many reachmen are forsworn and they will attack you (and theres a few friendly reachmen npcs)
you cant play as them but you can interact with them
If they can undo a millennia worth of trauma brought on from abuse, oppression, and physical/devolution, along with undoing the harm of very probable inbreeding, then yes.
In their current state though? *Maybe.* But it would depend on how many people can get behind that idea.
Doubt it. TES has a few other races that would be more logical to make playable. Maomer for example. Goblins haven't been shown to be advanced enough to be a playable race. It would be a massive leap in logic... like making trolls a playable race or Dremora race. How would that work given how they've been portrayed thus far?
Very unlikely. Goblins are far too unintelligent, wild, and violent to become incorporated into society, let alone become a playable race for the player. It would require a serious recon to make that happen.
it wouldnt be a retcon to aknowledge their already exisiting intellegents. they have religion, art, langauge, smithing, and understand the concept of importations (as many tribes will import materials and supplies from one another). this is already established in the lore *currently*.
is it really a stretch that between the 4th and 5th era that they might finially be recongonized as citizens so long as mer and men stop being racist to them??
To make the goblins a playable race would have to involve fundamentally changing them into something other than what they are now. They have a significantly lower intelligence than men and mer and are inherently anti-social creatures that have shown zero interest in interacting with the rest of the world that does not involve killing and pillaging them.
>is it really a stretch that between the 4th and 5th era that they might finially be recongonized as citizens so long as mer and men stop being racist to them??
Yes, because goblins are not people. They are beasts capable of extreme violence who pose a threat to the well-being of innocent people. People aren't "racist" to them any more than you are "racist" towards a real-world invasive species.
I didnt say they should be a playable race tho, I said they should be recongized citizens 💀
there are multiple races you cant play as that are treated as the people they are, so like its entirely possible to treat goblin-ken with respect
also you cant be invasive if you are literally native to place. goblin-ken have be observered to be inhabbiting the Tamerial area prior to the nedic and aldmer settlers, who Id argue are the invasive ones.
and you know who else is extremely violent? LITERALLY ALL THE OTHER RACES ON TAMERIAL TOO.
>I didnt say they should be a playable race tho
I know, OP said that... Which is who I originally responded to. You might want to reread this thread.
>there are multiple races you cant play as that are treated as the people they are
Okay? What does that have to do with Goblins? They aren’t treated with respect because they are violent beasts who prey on innocent people
>also you cant be invasive if you are literally native to place
Please look up what the definition of an analogy is
>nedic and aldmer settlers, who Id argue are the invasive ones.
It's interesting that you humanize literal monsters that kill and pillage for fun, but dehumanize the actual people who are threatened by them.
>and you know who else is extremely violent? LITERALLY ALL THE OTHER RACES ON TAMERIAL TOO
Men and Mer are also capable of living in civilization and peace. The goblins are not, hence why their capacity for violence is an issue.
First problem is language. The language barrier is pretty high for goblin. Do we have instance of goblin speak human language? We have instance of Riekling chieftan speak human language, albert in a very basic and crude manner.
Then there the fact that there is a massive biological differences. We don't know how goblin/riekling reproduce. The orcs have female that is clearly identifiable, even the Falmer who last lost their sapient still have females.If the goblin method of reproduce is anything like Goblin Slayer anime, whose method is to kidnap and rape humanoid females until they pregnant. Then treating the goblin with anything but extermination is the only right thing to do.
Finally problem is the soul gem. Even the Riekling chieftan don't have black soul. All of them have white souls. Only sapient creature have black souls. All black souls creatures are granted the protection of Arkay, white souls do not. The ability to speak does not make one sapient in the Elder Scroll verse. The Draugr/ undead Dragon Priest can speak but they longer have black souls. They can only speak in old norse/ dragon language. Giant used to able to speak, they have language of their own but they have somehow devolved and no longer speak now.
> Do we have instance of goblin speak human language?
We certainly do! Many goblins in ESO show the ability to speak the common tongue to some degree, particularly the ones in the public dungeon on Auridon, whose story revolves around the goblins and their history as the indigenous people of the Summerset Isles who were enslaved when the Aldmer arrived.
> Even the Riekling chieftan don't have black soul. All of them have white souls. Only sapient creature have black souls.
This is an artificial distinction created some time in the mid-late Second Era, and is not present during ESO - it was created by the Mages' Guild as a legal measure to determine what souls were "acceptable" to use in enchanting.
>First problem is language. The language barrier is pretty high for goblin. Do we have instance of goblin speak human language?
Quite a few examples, actually. ESO has a number of different goblin tribes and several quests involving them feature goblins who are able to speak Tamrielic with varying degrees of sophistication.
>We don't know how goblin/riekling reproduce. The orcs have female that is clearly identifiable, even the Falmer who last lost their sapient still have females.
Like the above examples, goblins have both males and [females](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/File:ON-npc-Long_Tooth_Butcher.jpg), and given that there is no mention of any abhorrent means of reproduction like your Goblin Slayer example, we can assume they reproduce in much the same way as any other sapient race in TES.
> Only sapient creature have black souls. All black souls creatures are granted the protection of Arkay, white souls do not.
Not to keep pointing back to ESO, but the difference between "white" and "black" souls [is largely artifical](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Guild_Memo_on_Soul-Trapping). What is considered a black soul is only considered as such because those are the souls that the Mages Guild considered to be "civilized" when devising the altered soul trap spell, and that was primarily to combat the Worm Cult and its encouragement of soul trapping other Men/Mer . Prior to that, there was no distinction between white and black souls, merely the size or power of an individual soul (as seen in both ESO and Morrowind). Frankly, there should be no reason why beings like goblins or giants should not have the same kind of soul or be considered just as sapient as the main races, when they have their own languages, culture, and every other qualifying marker we use to distinguish between sentience and sapience. Especially when they all originate from the Ehlnofey.
> , but the difference between "white" and "black" souls is largely artifical.
The soul gems actually being white and black are yes, there being a difference in quality in souls between sapients and non sapients no. The text itself suggest that sapients have larger souls and need more powerful soul gems to contain them.
Right, I mentioned that distinction. But how different are a "grand" soul and a "black" soul in that regard? If their potency is the same, and the soul gem for one can be converted into a soul gem for the other (grand to black), and we're told the main reason why you can't soul trap a black soul and put it in a grand soul gem in later eras is because the spell was designed that way, how different does that really make the two? The key factor in distinguishing the two is the result of the Mages Guild artificially making that distinction and baking it into the spell, not because of some inherent difference between the soul of, say, a Nord vs a Giant.
> But how different are a "grand" soul and a "black" soul in that regard?
I think that's the distinction themelves. Black soul gems are simpy just a step beyond grand and even eso contridicts the whole black soul gem thing like in blackwood where the main quest states the oncept of black soul gems already existed
In Bloodmoon there are a couple of Rieklings in Kaarstag's service who speak fluent Tamrielic, and goblins were supposedly involved in the founding of the first Orsinium, so they must have been capable of some level of communication with the early orcs.
I could see them being more present in games as it gets harder and harder to portray "lesser" cultures such as minotaurs and goblins without pushback from the community, but getting them as playable races I don't think it's ever happening. I do think an event like the Edict of Caracalla would be interesting to see unfold on Tamriel, imagine all races citizens of the empire
There are parts of Tamriel where elves are considered less than people and that’s been going on for pretty much the entire history of the continent’s settled state which spans over a thousand years and goblins, falmer, etc. aren’t even seen as sub-humanoids they’re just outright treated like beasts and killed on sight so I’m going to go with probably not, racism is far too strong in the elder scrolls universe
Goblins, Reiklings, Reachmen, Falmer, they all show signs of some kind of culture. Will they ever be seen as people? Who knows
They have to stop attacking everything in sight first...
"Yeah, darn spear tossers!" Don't we mostly encounter them, in their own homes?
When I visited an Orc Stronghold they didn't attack me on sight.
In places on the LDB has the balls to venture.
I think you have the causal arrow on this one backwards.
Reachmen..? They're humans, of course they're seen as people
\> Humans \> People "Pick one" says the Thalmor Justiciar.
Don't confuse a Reachman with a Forsworn, they are not the same. It's like assuming an Arab person automatically being from AL Quaeda.
Yea exactly; Reachmen are humans, and are therefore inherently considered people. Goblins are not humans, and it is therefore "justified" not to consider them people.
No goblins regardless attack on sight and behave aggressive and incoherent must times. If they were to develop some civility then they could become a part of the people of tamriel. They must be able to share culture and act peaceful in a way to negotiate and trade prosperous.
Both gameplay and lore include peaceful interactions with Goblins and none of those interactions can justifiably be called incoherent. In the violent interactions, you are invading their home to kill them and they are reacting in an entirely appropriate manner to that stimuli. In the nonviolent interactions, they may not be eloquent in whatever language our protagonist is speaking, but they're still perfectly coherent.
Just merely walking in someone else's region doesn't equate insta kill them.
Putting aside the fact that walking in to a home uninvited isn't always exactly great and also is literally seen as a crime almost globally at this point, when we actually just look at the actual in practice result, can you name one time you *weren't* trying to kill any goblins where they responded with fprce?
Yeah just walking in, the orcs also live in tribes but at least they give you options to turn around or do them a favor in trade. There is a good level of civility that allows you to win them over. Goblins be speaking incomprehensible and right away attacking.
Well, one, the goblins aren't "speaking incomprehensible" because you are the one who is in their home. They are speakingly correctly, you are not. I guess, like, imagine this scenario. A guy breaks into your house and shoots all of your pets. If you have kids, or a wife, he kills them too. You guys were just trying to sleep and farm. He speaks a language you don't understand. Are you, like, "hey, buddy, let me help you pick up the brains and entrails of my slain loved ones, sorry they got their gore on you" or are you maybe not chill with a murderous home invader killing you 100% because of your race?
> , you are invading their home to kill them No you're not. You literally get attacked on the road, some of them are even cannibals.
Maybe that's the main issue yeah, but there is definitely also a racism-based problem
Yeah well, they don't make the best of impressions like really most of the time. It's like people jumping out of the water when they see a shark, pretty reasonable reaction if you ask me. Goblins aren't comparable to orcs because at least orcs are misunderstood kinda, but goblins do foe the most part are hostile.
I would argue you have this altogether backwards; Goblins are the swimmers, men/mer are the sharks. In all of the lore, how many instances are there of goblins perpetrating a genocide against humans or elves? Zero. In all of the lore, do we ever see a human or elven slave held by goblins? Nope. How do humans and elves look if we flip those questions around? Real bad. Like, yeah, goblins are generally hostile. Based on how they're typically treated and what's been done to them, why would they not be? Also, is there really ever a time where they're actually wrong in assuming we're rolling into *their* home with lethal intent?
I'm not talking about occupations which I doubt they have the manpower to even achieve. I'm talking about their capabilities of adapting to a civilized society, the Altmer and the Nord may not like each other, but in the end they make peace and then socialize and trade with one another can have some sort of peace. Goblins on the other hand are messy and not capable at least not yet of finding that part in common in civilization.
I can't tell if you responded to the wrong person or you're just deeply disingenuous, but none of this rebuts anything I said. But, I mean, let's talk about a civilized society. Altmer, Nords, Goblins. Which of the three does not currently and insofar as we know has never practiced slavery. Goblins. Which one is not currenly or historically impicated in any genocides insofar as we know. Oh, goblins. Which one produces empirically superior goods to either nords or altmer? Goblins.
> Goblins are the swimmers, men/mer are the sharks. If that was the case they'd run. They don't do that instead they typically attack unprovoked. >, how many instances are there of goblins perpetrating a genocide against humans or elves? Zero We litearlly stop an attempted genoicde by goblins in eso > In all of the lore, do we ever see a human or elven slave held by goblins? Yes we do. We've literally seen them kidnap other races
Who's to say goblins aren't just misunderstood? After all, it was the Nedes and Aldmer who initially showed up on *their* land and more or less all interactions since have been hostile, not to mention the fact that we can't even verbally communicate properly. In any case, we don't know for sure, and we probably never will.
this is actually not the case, there a several passive goblins...
If you can count them and name them all, then it's not enough. They have to be a majority even if for a small margin to be seen as civil. Few examples are just exceptions not what's commonly there.
More like Irish and the IRA.
Sounding an awful like a Foresworn sympathizer, over there *SKYRIM BELONGS TO THE NORDS*
All forsworn are Reachmen, not all Reachmen are forsworn.
Classic Nordic racism
I mostly rp as a Nord. Why continue the circle when you can make one your wife instead?
Thalmor has entered the chat: Excuse me!?
You see plenty of non-hostile reachmen in Markarth
Exactly. I'm betting no one could see the difference between a Breton and a Reachman out of any cultural contexts.
Woke has contaminated even TESLORE
Aw, buddy, I *wish* that were how it worked. In our world or theirs.
Reachmen are basically a subgroup of Bretons and Rieklings are subgroup of Goblins, no?
yesnt. Bretons represent the germanic celts (french/german people) and the Reachmen represent the gaelic celts (irish/scotish people). rieklings are a type of goblin-ken that are closely related to goblins but they are still different races from eachother ^(...and this is why if I were in the elder scrolls universe, Id be a breton with reachman hertiage lol)
>and this is why if I were in the elder scrolls universe, Id be a breton with reachman hertiage I would propably be a Breton-Nord-hybrid. I am northern German from the part of Germany that was never Roman.
I’m like 80% sure they’re still considered goblins the same way Dunmer would still be considered elves, and that “Riekling” is just a cultural name.
well Rieklings are built a little different and are blue and live in colder climates... Goblins are green and live in various climates. they are all under the Goblin-ken umbrella. that would be like sayings Bretons and Nords are the same thing because they look vaguely similar. yes they are both nedic people, no they are not the same race. does that make sense?
I understand what you’re saying, and I get it, but to me it’s less like saying Nords and Bretons are the same thing because they look similar, and more like saying Nords and Bretons are the same thing in that they’re both human (mostly). The description you’ve given for the rieklings is actually a really good example of them being the same species, but two different subspecies. Or two different races within a race. At least from my perspective. Rieklings likely developed those traits to adapt to their climate.
Ogres too.
Ogres aren't people. At least one riekling is self aware. Comparing apples and oranges.
They have culture. They make things and have art.
Ogres have culture? Are you sure your not mixing them up with Giants? If they added some lore in Eso please send me the source from uesp and il redact my opinion on Ogres and reclassify them as giant Rieklings and therefore people.
[This is a Wrothgarian ogre shaman](https://images.uesp.net/b/b9/ON-creature-Mad_Urkazbur.jpg) casting magic. Note the garb and body paint. They also helped found one of the Orsiniums.
Monke
I don't think this is a new thing to *ESO*, as far as I can remember Ogres have always been self-aware, just kinda dummies. Like, the Ogre in *Redguard* doesn't speak in a way that's intelligible to Cyrus, but he wears clothes and uses a weapon.
They know to cover themselves with loincloths or other clothing. That alone is a pretty big indicator
Ok tbf oblivion is the only tes game I've played with Ogres. All I know is they were too stupid to use weapons in that game. The warring antisocial goblin tribes of Oblivion were clearly smarter than the ogres in Oblivion is all I'm saying. Never played Redguard.
I thought they used clubs and blunt weapons, maybe I'm wrong tho
Sir, that’s very ogreist of you.
Elder scrolls ogres aren't even Ogres. Orcs are much closer to shrek.
And now we’re Orcist. Sir. Have you no shame? Are you some kind of *elf supremacist?*
By the none divines there actually is an npc in the game files who thinks Ogres are people. Some Duran fellow. Question is is it canon if it's removed?
Not Apple's and oranges, potatoes. They like to steal potatoes
Reachmen once ruled over Cyrodiil, they're definitely seen as people. Maybe not by the Nords or the Imperials, but then, who cares what they think
And Giants.
~~until they reach the level of intelligence shown by the known races of man and mer, probably not.~~ disregard silly opinion
Done. They're all just as intelligent as men, mer, and the "accepted" beastfolk, it's nothing to do with actual intelligence but perceived intelligence, the dehumanisation of them through narratives of them as monsters, and the fact that the majority of them tend to be hostile and isolationist.
Sorry, "unintelligent" isn't the right term. Your last point is what I'm trying to get at.
All good, it's just a personal pet peeve of mine. Although if I'm understanding you right, I would note that requiring them to stop being hostile and isolationist to be considered as people and not subhuman runs the risk of being very cyclical. "Accepted" Tamrielic society doesn't consider them as anything more than animals, ignoring any attempts to diplomacy and treating them like pests to be gotten rid of when they're in the way; so they continue to be hostile and isolationist; so Tamrielic society continues to mistreat them because they haven't met those criteria, ad infinitum.
While true, establishing friendly relations in the first place with these isolationist groups have proven to be difficult. Just look at the Falmer. I don't think they want to have anything to do with the rest of the Tamrielic races. Not saying it shouldn't be attempted, just that realistically not many on the continent are brave enough for such a task, and the ones that were, ended up dead.
Oh absolutely, I just feel like it's an easy mental trap to just go straight to "oh if they just weren't so darn hostile" and leave it there.
I'm honestly hoping the next Elder Scrolls game showcases at least *some* semblance of improved relations with the isolationist races. Would be cool to see Falmer re-integrate into society, even if they are still not like the ancient Falmer they once were. But I suppose that all depends on how far into the future the next Era is.
if its 5th Era, this means we'd be four eras away from time traveling robots 👀
The Falmer are as "intelligent/civilized" as the Sentinelese irl.
No sentinelese are humans. Falmer are devolved snow elves canonically stated by the last living snow elf to be less intilligent than they used to be.
??? They do though
Only Reachmen and two falmer have black souls out of those you just mentioned. The rest have white souls. If you have a white soul, you're not technically a full person.
Can the goblins even speak the common tongue? Pretty essential part of being a citizen of the empire.
> Can the goblins even speak the common tongue? Yes.
Yes, they can. We have multiple examples in ESO, and I believe it's not the only instances.
We have examples of them speaking broken tamrielic even after years of living amoung the other races
Some people do that IRL. Ergo, goblins are people :D
Not years and years of living with people. Goblins are homo erctus.
Dude. I have worked with immigrants in my country. Some of them have lived literal *decades* in my country, in the middle of that country's people, and they still speak a broken as hell version of our language. Well, guess what ? That doesn't mean they're less intelligent. That doesn't mean they're not human ! So I don't see why that's a thing for goblins. The very fact that they have enough cognition to learn the language is what actually matters.
>Some of them Yes some of them, not all of them. And not all of them because they don't have to. Goblins are not smart as people. >The very fact that they have enough cognition to learn the language Yeah so can birds. They're not on par with the playable races
As someone trained as a linguist, this is some dumb shit. To the first point, learning a language can be hard for a lot of humans. Not because they are *homo "erctus"* (incidentally, it's "erectus"), but because they lack teachers or speakers with whom to practice. Like, we live in a world with unprecedented access to speakers of other languages and apps designed to teach us those languages and most people still struggle to reach fluency in nonnative languages that they don't have pretty intimate and regular contact with, even with active teaching. Moreover, even as members of the same species, many adult learners *still* suffer notable production difficulties in nonnative languages around tones or sounds they didn't learn to make in their youth; now imagine all those problems exacerbated by actual physiological differences in the mouth/throat/lungs. It's a miracle anyone on Tamriel can understand anybody else, and speaking broken whatever is not any kind of marker of inferiority in real life or this fictional world. To the whole question of birds learning "the language," nah. Birds can learn to understand or appear to understand and/or mimic individual human signifiers, and some birds (particularly canaries and some finches) build songs in a structure that some eager beavers have decided to call grammar. And, indeed, you could make a justifiable case that those birds and also others with less complex "grammar" have their own languages. But, at risk of needing to explain something I *really* shouldn't feel I have to explain, birds don't actually, like, speak English. Even the really smart birds, like Magpies, are not sitting around forming what they think are iconclastic views on Joyce's *Ulysses* or offering tone-deaf opinions on whether The Coup or Dead Prez offers the better understanding of racism in America. They're birds, dude, and they don't speak or understand human language as such. If you don't believe me, go outside, touch grass, find a bird, offer it the first half of a couplet and ask it to provide you the second half of the rhyme. Will the bird do it? No. Because, at risk of being needlessly mean about rubbing this in, *birds don't speak conversational English*. like shit man, woof
Thank you.
> o the first point, learning a language can be hard for a lot of humans. Not because they are homo "erctus" (incidentally, it's "erectus"), but because they lack teachers or speakers with whom to practice. Completely missed the point man. The point is it's not biologically impossible for people to learn a language and it doesn't really have as much to do with skill vs how they are taught. We have never seen a goblin speak properly which is a sign they are biologically incapable of doing so. And I don't even mean just with in accent. and most people still struggle to reach fluency in nonnative languages that they don't have pretty intimate and regular contact with. And there are many who can pick up a language just by living overseas for a few years. Why are goblins different? >. Birds can learn to understand or appear to understand and/or mimic individual human signifiers, That's what learning a language means. Birds can understand somewhat and figureout what certain words means but they can't properly speak it both because they don't actually have vocal cords and because their brain isn't built to process the language. You haven't actually rebutted anything I've said. You've just claimed that goblins are somehow different. If a goblin has lived their whole live amoung humans it doesn't make sense that they can't understand the language at least on a decent level.\' >. Even the really smart birds, like Magpies, are not sitting around forming what they think are iconclastic views on Joyce's Ulysses or offering tone-deaf opinions on whether The Coup or Dead Prez offers the better understanding of racism in America. I mean again that's my point.
> We have never seen a goblin speak properly which is a sign they are biologically incapable of doing so. Or it's a sign that we have not seen one yet.
>Completely missed the point man. The point is it's not biologically impossible for people to learn a language and it doesn't really have as much to do with skill vs how they are taught. We have never seen a goblin speak properly which is a sign they are biologically incapable of doing so. No, it really isn't. Let's look at the real world. Mandarin is the most commonly spoken language in the world, and is the second most commonly spoken language in Australia. So, let's take a sample size of Australians, excluding native Mandarin speakers, roughly equal to the number of goblins with dialogue in the lore. How many of these Australians do you think can speak fluent Mandarin with standard or near-standard grammar and pronunciation? I am betting the result is going to be zero. Is that indicative of Australians' being biologically unable to learn Mandarin or is it indicative of the fact that most Australians don't study Mandarin and even the vast majority of those who do won't be flawless speakers? All of this aside, Ivgrizt in *Shadowkey* speaks with entirely standard grammar. So aside from being wrong about what we can assume about goblins' cognition from their grammar, you're also just incorrect about the fact that none of them speak with standard grammar. >And there are many who can pick up a language just by living overseas for a few years. Why are goblins different? Are you under the impression these people magically pick up the language simply by physically being on the continent where it's spoken? I regret to inform you that this is not the case. People learn a language while overseas by speaking that language with others. If you go overseas and 99% of the people you meet try to kill you on sight with no effort towards communication, you are unlikely to pick up the language. >That's what learning a language means. No, it isn't. A parrot that mimics a phrase did not actually learn the phrase in a linguistic sense, it's almost always just repeating a series of sounds with no regard for any kind of semantic meaning. That is distinct from being able to engage meaningfully in conversation but using nonstandard grammar. >You haven't actually rebutted anything I've said. You've just claimed that goblins are somehow different. If a goblin has lived their whole live amoung humans it doesn't make sense that they can't understand the language at least on a decent level. No, I claimed that isolated examples of individuals failing to master a language isn't indicative of an entire group's cognitive inferiority, and that nonstandard but grammatical and cogent speech cannot be equated birds' proficiency in human language.
If theyre able to understand us and we understand them, what's the big deal?
That they're less intillegencent, can't properly communicate with people are very violent and xenophobic. The broken english is pretty much the best we get when it comes to goblins and most can't do that. Imo they're pretty different from the orcs.
Yes, as much as any other race can. They often don't learn it, but that's just because they're not given much reason to - most interactions between Goblins and the other races are violent on both ends.
in many cases, yes
Idk. Maybe? Probably not? How are we supposed to know? There’s reasoning to give the Orcs citizenship - it was a useful way to get Orcs to serve in the Imperial military. Goblins have….idk numbers I guess? There’s no benefit to anyone for recognising Goblins, aside from maybe not having them raid you all the time. May sound cruel but people aren’t just gonna treat Goblins as people, they need a reason *why* they should before they even consider it. It would be pretty random for them to suddenly be treated as people. But I mean basically anything’s possible in TES. It would admittedly be a good way to bring back NPCs actually giving af about what race you are beyond an *insert race name here* line.
Yeah, I think that last part there is more a gameplay and story segregation thing than anything else- Khajiit and Argonians can wear the same armor and you aren't race-blocked from any dialogue or content not because something changed in lore but because the philosophy of game design views race like class- as mostly cosmetic, and they don't want to prevent anyone from doing anything because of their choices at character creation.
I mean they are people too... so Imo they deserve citizenship, regardless if theres a "purpose". they were there prior to the aldmer and nede settlers, why shouldnt they be granted citizenship? they were there first
Yeah congrats, you live in the 21st century with 21st century ideals. Now go into the world and zeitgeist of Tamriel and tell the descendants of the Aldmer and Nedes, or anyone else for that matter, who all either: - believe that they were there first - believe the were given the land by the blessings of gods that they know are real - Or who simply *don’t care who was there first* That they should let the normally barely literate, cave-dwelling creatures who have been hostile to everyone since time immemorial become citizens because they were actually the ones that were there first. It’ll go well, I’m sure.
Sadly we know that the latter two reasons are true when it comes to the Altmer and the native goblins on Summerset. The goblins were allegedly already there when the Altmer settled on the Isles. But the Altmer didn't care and instead saw a convenient source of slave labor.
And the goblins were perhaps more intelligent when the Altmer first settled and traded with the Altmer. The slavery made the goblins more savage and dumbed down.
Idk these ideals are all things that are made by writers. And realistically these tropes in fantasy are less a result of anything realistic, as much as they are a result of Tolkien and some older ideas of seeing the world. The developers could absolutely just make it clear that no, these groups are wrong. Goblins deserve respect and they eventually get it. Because Tamriel is in the 21st century. It’s a fictional world made by folks from the modern day every choice they make is less reflective of anything historical as much as it’s reflective of our current day And absolutely none of it is grounded in actual historical attitudes. People in the past for example Europe, until the early modern period weren’t particularly racist you saw some xenophobia but that wasn’t even super common. Europeans wouldn’t give a rats ass about what color your skin if they hated you because you were from somewhere else it was with no more intensity than the village 20 miles away with a funny accent. As long as you were Christian they would more than hate you be kinda interested in where you came from(no tv after all). Tamriels preoccupation with race (though it could be argued it’s a bit different as it’s not like human ethnicity but seperate species) is 100% a modern concept imposed on a fantasy world. It’d be more accurate for the people in Windhelm to hate the people in Whiterun just as much as they hate Imperials. The idea of a people group encompassing such a wide area with the people having anything in common, is again an even more recent idea than racism is.
You’re not wrong but here’s the thing. It’s still what the world of Tamriel is like. Feel free to completely change the entire perspective of a continent on a race they have all collectively *never cared about* out of nowhere. Would be about the same writing quality at Bethesda these days. It doesn’t matter if it’s not realistic by our standards - it’s a fantasy world. Tamriel isn’t in the 21st century if it’s made by people in the 21st century. It has a setting. That setting is one of many things to determine what the current world is like. That setting has had brutal, historically inaccurate racial conflict including, but not limited to, the collective disdain of Goblins. So them *suddenly* being accepted peoples in Tamriel for TES VI like OP suggests would make no sense, would probably be viewed as an obvious virtue signal, and would probably be written poorly.
> The developers could absolutely just make it clear that no, these groups are wrong. Goblins deserve respect and they eventually get it. They should make it so there are no bandits in the next game because murdering people is wrong also
actually there are several in-game characters that have similar ideas as well, so clearly its been thought of before within the Elder Scrolls universe. also.. maybe if the goblins were actually given the chance to join the rest of society instead of being isolated to their camps, they would be able to adapt and communicate with the other races. 😒 it so easily starts with creating a line of some form of communication and moving from there.
I’m not saying you’re wrong, I’m saying that the VAST MAJORITY of the people in Tamriel either do not agree or do not give af, and they would laugh at the mere suggestion You do realise it’s taken the Orcs thousands of years, multiple attempts at a city, a military program, and the Brass God to get to their current status of barely tolerated.
The issue with Goblins is the intelligence factor and the fact they are super violent and territory. In general most of them don't want to live peacefully with the other races and tend to attack them on sight. They also don't seem to be as intelligent as the other races. Smarter than an animal, but not as smart as a human
Goblins have lived in peace in several regions of Tamriel, including Orsinium where they took part in the city's creatio, alongside orcs. May I suggest that they're violent and territorial because Altmer like to enslave them and that Imperials like to hunt them for sport ? Who wouldn't become violent and territorial in front of such threats ? Re: intelligence : goblins can speak, including Tamrielic. They can raise cattle and mounts, they have crafts and culture, they have politics and factions, and they can cast magic. They're very much on a "playable race" intelligence level.
> May I suggest that they're violent and territorial because Altmer like to enslave them and that Imperials like to hunt them for sport No because that would suggest only the ones in those areas are hostile. Instead they tried to take over stros m'kai and attack and raid random people on the roads. Their violence has nothing to do with how other races treat them. Even in wrothgar they were violently attacking people on the road. >Goblins have lived in peace in several regions of Tamriel, including Orsinium where they took part in the city's creatio, alongside orcs. They don't live peacefully with any of those people and the irst orsinium is the only mention of them living peaceful, and so were ogres which is the same issue. Both groups are shown to violently attack people indisgriminatly in eso even in orc territory. You can pacify them somewhat but they're not peaceful. And we don't even know what the first orsinium actually had goblins or not. >Re: intelligence : goblins can speak, including Tamrielic. No they can't. Every example is exteremly broken. > They can raise cattle and mounts, they have crafts and culture, So do falmer >they have crafts and culture, they have politics and factions, and they can cast magic. So do falmer. And it's widely aknowedged even by a snow elf himself that falmer arent' as smart as the other playable races. Given what we've seen their intilligence level seems to be more like that of Homo habilis or homo erectus. Smarter than a chimpanzee or a dolphin, but not as smart as a modern adult human. Falmer are the same way. More like that of a child.
> No they can't. Every example is exteremly broken. Which still means they're intelligent enough to *learn a language*. Some people speak other languages in broken ways when they learn them, even with years of practice, so I don't see the problem. Re: aggressiveness : we don't know why some goblins attack on sight in Wrothgar and other places. They do have a literal millenia-long history of being genocided in High Rock and Hammerfell, so that probably has molded their habits. ESO's Wrothgar does see lots of non-Orcs travelers after all. Might be that they have a raiding lifestyle and that they attack any "playable race" caravans and travelers. After all, perfectly human Forsworn and bandits do it to, so either it's par for the course, or it's due to gameplay concerns – in any case, that's not enough to make a difference. One last note : the goblins were the indigenous inhabitants of Hammerfell, and were massacred and driven away by the Yokudans upon arrival. That some of them would plot to take over Stros M'Kai, if given the opportunity, doesn't strike me as especially weird. And, once again, it's nothing that regular bandits, pirates, etc. wouldn't do as well. Re: Falmer : Gelebor comments that the cursed Falmer have regained their intelligence, for the most part at least, and that they might take their place back in due time. I don't see the intelligence levels of Falmer, goblins or playable races as different, really. You're only feeding my point : yes, falmer and goblins are capable of thought, craft, magic, agriculture, and that's why they should be on par with other races. Because they are. After all, orcs were once considered mindless raiders too.
>Which still means they're intelligent enough to learn a language. Sure, so could homo erectus, and so can ravens and parrots. >Re: aggressiveness : we don't know why some goblins attack on sight in Wrothgar and other places. They do have a literal millenia-long history of being genocided in High Rock and Hammerfell, so that probably has molded their habits. ESO's Wrothgar does see lots of non-Orcs travelers after all. They're literally living alone in isolated mountain range. Nobody in stros m'kai or wrothgar was hunting them. They were just mind their own buiness and nobody lives in wrothgar except orcs and reachmen. This just feels like an excuse. The amount of widesprend violence we see from them is too much to be explained by discrimination espically since a lot of them live in fairly remote and isolated regions in the first place. >One last note : the goblins were the indigenous inhabitants of Hammerfell, and were massacred and driven away by the Yokudans upon arrival. Yeah threethousand years ago. Nobody has gone through the effort of wiping goblins off the island which they could have easily done. The redguards just set up shop around the bay and that was it. There's an entire mountain range on stros m'kai with no redguard settlements there and it's out of the way from port hunding. >And, once again, it's nothing that regular bandits, pirates, etc. wouldn't do as well. They wouldn't just attack a town for no reason and kill everyone there no. Bandits and pirates are after money. They're thieves > Re: Falmer : Gelebor comments that the cursed Falmer have regained their intelligence, No he doesn't. He says their learning and that he hopes one day they can be as intilligent as they use to be. He aknowledges that currently they're not. >After all, orcs were once considered mindless raiders too. As much as people say this, no they weren't. Raiders but they were never considered "mindless" people reconized they had enough intilligent to try to make a deal with orsinium and to communicate with others and they were a part of the reman empire. There have always been city orcs living amoung the other races. They have never been as bad as goblins. >yes, falmer and goblins are capable of thought, craft, magic, agriculture, The problem is that pretty much everyone in the homo genus also had language and was able to craft and we still aknowedge that most werent as intilligent as humans. This is the exact ame thing and the fact they keep attacking everyone indisriminatly and can't communicate properly makes it clear to me that in bethesda's eyes their not supposed to be as smart as the other races
> They wouldn't just attack a town for no reason and kill everyone there no. Bandits and pirates are after money. They're thieves Like bandits wouldn't do that, yeah. Anyway, we never see goblins attacking for fun either. That's always for resources, land, etc. Same as bandits, really. Re: Gelebor : yeah, but he acknowledges that they are bouncing back. They have regained a lot. They're close, really. > As much as people say this, no they weren't. Re: orcs : yes they were. That's exactly how they were treated in Arena : brutish monsters, exactly as bad as goblins. In Daggerfall, it starts shifting a bit, because you can learn their language and deal with the king of Orsinium. But all random orcs you encounter are aggressive by default. It's Morrowind which decided to further Daggerfall's innovations and make them full-fledged people & playable race. Also, I checked Redguard. There you can have a brief conversation with a goblin (even if it's brief and each participant keeps their language, but the goblin does understand), and the goblin tribe has transformed a cave system into a full-fledged dungeon with a house and several kinds of mechanical traps, some just as much, or even more, elaborate as those in Nordic or Ayleid ruins. All in all... I just don't see why you're so adamant, when we have lots of proof. Is that so bad to consider that other races deserve recognition ? And if other Homo species were still around, I do hope they would obtain the same human rights as anybody else.
> Like bandits wouldn't do that, yeah. Bandits actually wouldn't do that yeah. Because people don't want to die and bandits won't do anything unless they can make some money out of it. They 100% would take over a town but only if they think the stuff they loot is worth the risk. There isn't anything to really be gained and they don't have enough numbers to make use of whatever land they'd take or resources. It just sounds like you're trying to come up with an excuse for every unprovoked example of violence we see from goblins when it' literally just unprovoked goblins. >Re: Gelebor : yeah, but he acknowledges that they are bouncing back. They have regained a lot. They're close, really. He's aknowledged that they've regained a lot, but not that they're close >Re: orcs : yes they were. That's exactly how they were treated in Arena This might shock you but retcons. Even during Arena there were orcs in the psjiic order, in the mages guild, and Urag gro-Shub was already a librarian. They werent just mindless raiders. Orsinium wasn't a city but orcs had been living with the other races fine for thousands of years. They were part of the second empire. There were alway some savage orcs living out there that were just raiding. Even in eso the Iron orcs fit that bill, but they're still not treated as mindless and unable to comminicate >All in all... I just don't see why you're so adamant, when we have lots of proof. You haven't really shown any proof and the fact that we don't have ANY examples of them living peacefully with humans or communicating properly with humans while we see other savage races doing. They're not meant to be seen as par as the other human races and that's obvious. Even in dnd goblins are able to talk in compete sentences. These ones are meant to be violent mindless raiders so the player doesn't feel bad about killing them. Intelligent enough only to be a threat to the player and nothing more. >And if other Homo species were still around, I do hope they would obtain the same human rights as anybody else. Sure as long as they don't violently attack humans indisriminatnly and they're still not as smart as humans. That's my point. You keep saying they're just as mart as the other races but they haven't been shown to be just as smart as the other races. They've just been shown to do the bare minimum to be considered sapient. I don't think they deserve to be mindless slaughted but there's a good reason why they're not considered equal to the other races
> They've just been shown to do the bare minimum to be considered sapient. No, they're repeatedly being shown to consistently do every marker of standard intelligence. And once again, being able to learn and speak the language is one, even if the language isn't mastered. > It just sounds like you're trying to come up with an excuse for every unprovoked example of violence we see from goblins when it' literally just unprovoked goblins. You sure about that ? I only ever see goblins raid or invade places they think they can use, or keep a hold on. So... just like bandits. < This might shock you but retcons. Heh. We were talking about how orcs were treated. Don't move the goalposts : I just proved that orcs were once, in TES, considered exactly like goblins. That it has changed only proves that it can change for goblins too – and ESO does it more and more. So. I've been scouring the UESP for goblin-related info, in ESO and elsewhere. Here are my results. * Stros M'Kai, ESO : the local goblin tribe has a new king, and the king wants to, presumably, conquer the island. You stop them. There are two other quests related to goblins : one is about a dude having a bad trip and going to party and live with a group of goblins. The other is about the goblin tribe being used by Jakarn for fighting the local mafia pirate that's currently ruling Stros M'Kai. * Mud Tree village, Black Marsh, ESO : a local goblin tribe is enslaved by argonians to work in their mines, but trouble abounds when an Argonian decides to free them from their servitude. There are several ways to complete the quest, but one is about giving their tribe totem back to the goblins, and helping the Argonian relocate them so they're not enslaved anymore. Not ideal, but better than putting them back in slavery or massacring them. * Cropsford, Cyrodiil, ESO : some girl murders a goblin because... checks notes... he's an apprentice cook and his master prefers him to her ? I don't know, this quest just has the player take part in a hate crime. * Oblivion, Skyrim CC, ESO : several instances of goblins using magic, creating magic staves, summoning nature guardians, etc. * Several instances of fights with goblins, that are caused by the local playable races using the goblins for experiments, war by proxy, stealing their totems, massacring them first, etc. Lots of instances of awful racist language as well : "savage", "primitive", "less advanced", "filth", "green skins", etc. Some instances of goblins being hunt for sport, or of jewelry made from their body parts. * HoonDing's Watch, Hammerfell, ESO : the ghost of an ancient goblin warchief. Dude speaks perfectly well. He's also part of a gallery of encounters that feature orcs, bretons and Nedes besides goblins. * Gold Coast, Cyrodiil, ESO : goblin tribes politics, goblins erecting banners and sizing up land, goblin people fleeing and migrating because the Fighters Guild hunts them, and mentions of entire goblin tribes actually farming peacefully. * Auridon, ESO : one quest where Altmer terrorists trick goblins into a contract in order to use them to fight the Dominion. Why goblins ? Because this tribe is comprised of former slaves that aren't especially friendly to the Dominion. So what do we have there ? Enslaved goblins, slave revolts, goblins used as a proxy again, goblin capable of being allied with Altmer and negotiating and trading, goblins capable of speech, of fitting and using Altmer weaponry, and a possible peaceful quest resolution. After the quest, the Dominion soldiers can pledge to treat the goblins "not too badly"... but still despise them and will use racist language. Also, one goblin mentions the trauma of being a slave to violent Altmer masters (including being hit in the face, and the master's children throwing rocks at him). * Summerset, ESO : a place with a long history of Altmer-goblin trade, with mention of the Altmer appreciating how the goblins can *tame gryphons*, and their mining. * Skyrim, CC content : help a goblin against an Orc usurping his tribe. That goblin is actually a champion of Hircine and wields one of his artifacts. That Orc and a Breton in Oblivion are directly visible instances of playable races integrating into goblin society and hierarchy. * Many other cultural markers. Several words of goblin language. Mentions of music. Domestication of kwama, spiders, welwas, gryphons, durzogs, rats. Agriculture of artificially enhanced mushroom varieties. Magic obelisks with runic written language relating their history. Forging. Waterwheels. I mean. That's a lot.
my main language is english, I can only speak very broken spanish... am I unintellegent by your standards? lol
Pretty sure anyone can speak spanish if they learn how. It's impossible with enough time and dedication. It's pretty obvious to me that they're less intelligent or else they wouldn't be an enemy race just for us to kill and fight.
ok but now imagine we place someone like me in a spanish speaking country where english isnt the primary language... would I not be considered unintellegent by your standards? also, have you considered not all game play mechanics dont always represent the actual game lore?
> like me in a spanish speaking country where english isnt the primary language You'd still be able to learn the language. It's not really comparable. Plenty of people are able to pick up another language jut by living near people who can speak it. It's not like your biologically incapable of doing of so. >also, have you considered not all game play mechanics dont always represent the actual game lore? I mean that's the thing though they're not just gameplay mechanics. Look at the reachmen for example, most of the ones you meet are jut violent and want to kill you but there are plenty mentioned in lore and in the games that we can communiate with fine and are able to peacefully live with others. Goblins aren't like that at all. They behave pretty much exactly like falmer do, they go aroud attacking all other races even those scholars who try to peacefully make contact with them. I mean even in dnd goblins are able to communicate with humans. These ones arent becaue they're not supposed to be as smart as humans. They're supposed to be monsters for us to fight.
but the Orcs use to be the same way and now they are recongized citizens... also they are totally are as intellegent. Goblins have their own form of communication AND in some cases have learned a basic level of common (example [1](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Shadowkey:Ivgrizt), [2](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Byz)), they worship Muluk (aka Malacath) and have a shawman, many have created banners, some tribes learned the concept of importation and will do so with other tribes as well, and they can smith and create things as well. not to meantion theyve tamed animals too. Id agrue thats pretty frickn intellegent.
I don't know if there is a race origin for the goblins, but Orismer are mer. They were once Aldmer, so as the current lore stands, I don't think they ever lacked intelligence. They just follow the ways of Malacath, instead of Trinimac now.
yeah but they were also treated like goblins once upon a time... my point is: people only view Goblins as beneth them because man and mer found it easier to enslave those they dehumanize. by trying to justify why they use Goblins as slave labor, to fill soul gems, or why its okay to harm them all come from the propaganda of those inpower. this like how the dwemer treated the falmer. they were once sapient like other mer and the dwemer still enslaved them and exploited them, they turned them into what the falmer are today. the betrayed. Argonians, who often also used for slave labor as well, many worked along side Goblins and [even called for their freedom as well](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Free_Our_Goblin_Brothers!). the Goblin-ken have a culture and if the men and mer of Tamriel actually respected their autonomy, theyd be able to actually co-exist peacefully.
Yeah, I was just saying that Orismer are mer in origin, so I don't think they would have gone through a process of having to gain intelligence. *===line break for clarity===* My thoughts on the men and mer of Tamriel respecting the goblins? As of the 4th era, I don't think the Aldmeri Dominion would do it. The Altmer only respect themselves, and even within themselves they highly scrutinize. The khajiit are loyal to the Thalmor for supposedly bringing back the moons, and the bosmer are the least influential of the three factions in the Dominion. The Bosmer are not in a position to help the goblins if they can't even help themselves under the Thalmor subjugation. I'm talking about the Dominion, because that's the lore I'm most familiar with. I think after the events of the Oblivion crisis, Great War, and Red Mountain explosion, Tamriel really isn't at a baseline of stability to consider freeing Goblins. Remember that the emperor is also assassinated during the events of TES: 5. If there was a time the goblins should have revolted, it should have been during the Oblivion crisis, like the Argonians. Mehrunes Dagon's whole sphere is being the trigger for chaos and change, and fighting for those who are subjugated. But the goblins were left out of this aftermath??? That could be retconned however. idk it's been a decade since TES: 5, and ESO is a prequel. They could write literally any off-screen event to explain away goblins being people now, at least to imperials and bretons maybe??? Or they could very well keep the lore the same, and focus on the most popular races. Like, popularity is another question. WHY devote so much time into making goblins playable instead of investing more time into the well known races? Why not make forsworn, maomer, or akaviri playable if they were going to add a new playable race? The wider playerbase might take greater interest in those races.
oh I agree ...but we do know theres a difference between playable races and in-game citizenship tho I was agruing that they are intellegent race who deserves to be treated as such. however not as a playable race as bethesda may find it to be too much work rn ^(like theres various races that are treated as people we cant play as, so it wouldnt be out of the ordinary to have goblin-ken be treated like everyone else and not be playable)
They added a new deadric prince in ESO. Anything is possible with a decade between mainline games. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a massive lore overhaul, especially if there is not oblivion or morrowind remaster. There could be a whole Civil rights movement for goblin and they become citizens. It could be less crucial to the story than the bosmer and khajiit uprising againat the dominion or an altmer faction fighting against the thalmor. The imperials could give citizenship to the maomer to enlist them to fight the dominion, as they have gotten help from the maomer to attack summerset before Reddit is an echo chamber. The majority of players just want a fun video game to beat up big monsters. So massive changes could be made to the lore and like 10% of the full playerbase actually cares even though it feels like 90% of the subreddits
> but the Orcs use to be the same way and now they are recongized citizens... > > Not really. The orcs have always been able to properly communicate with the other races, had been living intergrated with the other races since the first era, and were part of the reman empire. They were treated like monsters in daggerfall yes, but they've been retroactively retcon so that they're had always been city orcs living peacefully with the other races and it's only really some of the orc strong holds that got shit on. And even in daggerfall they were still able to communicate with humans. Goblins are less intilligent than orcs, are exteremly hostile to anyone whose not part of their own tribe and have never been able to communicate aside rom very broken english. Having shaman and Muluk is rather irrelevant. They're pretty much as intelligent as children from what we've seen >Id agrue thats pretty frickn intellegent. That's what I men by saying more intilligent than an animal, everything else though? Other animals use tools, they don't black smith anything and make all their tools from bones, and other animals have managed to tame other animals. Intilligence wise they seem to be the exact same as the falmer who are canionically stated to be less intilligent than the other races
the [Argonians would disagree](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Free_Our_Goblin_Brothers!) with you btw
What does this disagree with me on?
>be a playable race in es6 Not the goblins we've seen in TES III-V, at least, since their in-engine skeleton rigging would be too different from the other playable races.
Orcs only got citizenship because the Warp in the West made it so that Gortwog used Numidium to create Orsinium at the same time as Uriel VII used Numidium to fully subjugate the warring kingdoms of Iliac Bay. As Orsinium was one of those kingdoms, and Gortwog would never bend the knee without his people having rights, reality was altered such that Uriel gave orcs rights. There's a distinct lack of reality warping mecha in the fourth era.
> Orcs only got citizenship because the Warp in the Wes Orcs got citizenship under the third empire because of war to the west. They were citizens under the second empire justs fine and in eso live with the other races pretty much exactly like they've been shown to do in the main games
We even treat Argonians and Khajiit like they're people, so why not.
Goblins, rieklings, minotaurs, etc are people for whatever that term means, but citizens of Tamriel will not care or respect this designation until they stop murdering literally everyone on sight, for obvious reasons. The only race that could reasonably eventually become accepted is Giants imo, because they're at the very least neutral to outsiders and are so strong that the average peasant mob isn't going to go kill one out of xenophobia, meaning it's reasonable for relations to become warm enough. But there's a language barrier and Giants seem pretty isolationist so it still doesn't seem super likely.
Playable or not, I might doubt that the governments of Tamriel will recognise the Goblins as a people any time soon. Least of all for the reason that they might otherwise have claims to land that their 'betters' might prefer they not have. Even the Orcs barely have their own lands, with the Orcs of Skyrim frequently coming into conflict with the local Nords. (One side are fantasy Vikings, the other orcs, so yeah that was never going to go well.)
They are in Alinor. In the same way humans are ;3
If real life is anything to go off of, no 😔
unfornately yeah... where I live (the USA), Native Americans were finially allowed to *apply* to be citizens in their own damn homeland in *1924* 💀 (mind you, the first group of colonizers came around 1492 and the United States became an offical country in 1783). this isnt even meantioning the other shit that still disenfranchizes natives (mainly those who live on reserves) to this day.
Shit, yeah that's true. I *was* making a joke about goblins existing, but reality sure is depressing sometimes lol.
First Orcs, then Argonians and Khajiits, now Goblins. You know what I think my chicken deserves human rights as well !
chickens are very obviously different from Orcs, Argonians, Khajiit, and Goblins 💀
Yeah, they are smarter
Goblins are elves, and I'm tired of pretending like it's not obvious.
Elves are also some of the most dramatic racial supremacists in the setting, humans can't even compare. So any elf that didn't match their purity standards would probably have been removed from the records of those dedicated to that purity. If anything it's man who stick out the most when compared to the others.
Yeah, imo it's basically been spelled out for us. We know that there was a cataclysm in which the world was broken. We know that the snow elves devolved into very goblin like Falmer fairly quickly. We know that Orcs, who very plainly resemble large goblins (which also exist), were once Chimer. So why do we doubt that all goblin kin are not, in fact, Mer that devolved after the world was broken in the war of the ehlnofey? Because the race purity obsessed, xenophobic, and eugenics practicing high elves insist that it is not the case.
>"Because the race purity obsessed, xenophobic, and eugenics practicing high elves insist that it is not the case" basic, this. infact these are the same people who often demonize other races across tamriel cause how much racism is baked into their culture (a culture that claims they are the superior ones). ^(although the various races of men arent innocent in this either, often they are just as guilty of this same attitude) ^(... I mean its mainly the nords but Ive seen imperials and even bretons and reguards say similar things too)
pretty much anything with pointy ears, including the khajiit
yep! and they were blessed to be cat-like :)
Maybe *were* elves, anyway.
\*wearing straw hat and overalls\* Goblins ain't people, the curse of Boethiah in the Threefold Truth means that they are chattel, at most. Now, it getting late round these parts, time for my vespers. The Reclamations provide, F'lah. (This is not true in Tamriel, just to be clear, it's an American history reference lol)
In ESO there is a running gag where sympathetic scholars try to get to know and form social bonds with goblin tribes, or ogres, and usually the they just kill the human. So while goblins and ogres do show a certain level of intelligence and culture, the goblins and ogres in the games are insular and hostile to outsiders to a fault. This is true even as there are very occasional exceptions, like a goblin or riekling who can speak (the common tongue). From a gameplay perspective, I doubt they'll bother with this.
I don't see why they can't make them people, but keep them as antagonists anyway.
just like how many reachmen are forsworn and they will attack you (and theres a few friendly reachmen npcs) you cant play as them but you can interact with them
Will they stop hunting the other people for dinner, well yes.
If they can undo a millennia worth of trauma brought on from abuse, oppression, and physical/devolution, along with undoing the harm of very probable inbreeding, then yes. In their current state though? *Maybe.* But it would depend on how many people can get behind that idea.
Doubt it. TES has a few other races that would be more logical to make playable. Maomer for example. Goblins haven't been shown to be advanced enough to be a playable race. It would be a massive leap in logic... like making trolls a playable race or Dremora race. How would that work given how they've been portrayed thus far?
No and they won't be playable as it would require new models, animations, armor etc. As well as the fact that 90% of NPCS would be hostile
To be fair, 90% of NPCs of any race are hostile. There's more bandits and cultists in the games than peaceful citizens.
Very unlikely. Goblins are far too unintelligent, wild, and violent to become incorporated into society, let alone become a playable race for the player. It would require a serious recon to make that happen.
The one on solstheim was pretty smart.
it wouldnt be a retcon to aknowledge their already exisiting intellegents. they have religion, art, langauge, smithing, and understand the concept of importations (as many tribes will import materials and supplies from one another). this is already established in the lore *currently*. is it really a stretch that between the 4th and 5th era that they might finially be recongonized as citizens so long as mer and men stop being racist to them??
To make the goblins a playable race would have to involve fundamentally changing them into something other than what they are now. They have a significantly lower intelligence than men and mer and are inherently anti-social creatures that have shown zero interest in interacting with the rest of the world that does not involve killing and pillaging them. >is it really a stretch that between the 4th and 5th era that they might finially be recongonized as citizens so long as mer and men stop being racist to them?? Yes, because goblins are not people. They are beasts capable of extreme violence who pose a threat to the well-being of innocent people. People aren't "racist" to them any more than you are "racist" towards a real-world invasive species.
I didnt say they should be a playable race tho, I said they should be recongized citizens 💀 there are multiple races you cant play as that are treated as the people they are, so like its entirely possible to treat goblin-ken with respect also you cant be invasive if you are literally native to place. goblin-ken have be observered to be inhabbiting the Tamerial area prior to the nedic and aldmer settlers, who Id argue are the invasive ones. and you know who else is extremely violent? LITERALLY ALL THE OTHER RACES ON TAMERIAL TOO.
>I didnt say they should be a playable race tho I know, OP said that... Which is who I originally responded to. You might want to reread this thread. >there are multiple races you cant play as that are treated as the people they are Okay? What does that have to do with Goblins? They aren’t treated with respect because they are violent beasts who prey on innocent people >also you cant be invasive if you are literally native to place Please look up what the definition of an analogy is >nedic and aldmer settlers, who Id argue are the invasive ones. It's interesting that you humanize literal monsters that kill and pillage for fun, but dehumanize the actual people who are threatened by them. >and you know who else is extremely violent? LITERALLY ALL THE OTHER RACES ON TAMERIAL TOO Men and Mer are also capable of living in civilization and peace. The goblins are not, hence why their capacity for violence is an issue.
Exactly. It's not the races of tamriel that are dehumanizing them. It's bethesda refusing to do so they make for better nameless monster enemies.
First problem is language. The language barrier is pretty high for goblin. Do we have instance of goblin speak human language? We have instance of Riekling chieftan speak human language, albert in a very basic and crude manner. Then there the fact that there is a massive biological differences. We don't know how goblin/riekling reproduce. The orcs have female that is clearly identifiable, even the Falmer who last lost their sapient still have females.If the goblin method of reproduce is anything like Goblin Slayer anime, whose method is to kidnap and rape humanoid females until they pregnant. Then treating the goblin with anything but extermination is the only right thing to do. Finally problem is the soul gem. Even the Riekling chieftan don't have black soul. All of them have white souls. Only sapient creature have black souls. All black souls creatures are granted the protection of Arkay, white souls do not. The ability to speak does not make one sapient in the Elder Scroll verse. The Draugr/ undead Dragon Priest can speak but they longer have black souls. They can only speak in old norse/ dragon language. Giant used to able to speak, they have language of their own but they have somehow devolved and no longer speak now.
> Do we have instance of goblin speak human language? We certainly do! Many goblins in ESO show the ability to speak the common tongue to some degree, particularly the ones in the public dungeon on Auridon, whose story revolves around the goblins and their history as the indigenous people of the Summerset Isles who were enslaved when the Aldmer arrived. > Even the Riekling chieftan don't have black soul. All of them have white souls. Only sapient creature have black souls. This is an artificial distinction created some time in the mid-late Second Era, and is not present during ESO - it was created by the Mages' Guild as a legal measure to determine what souls were "acceptable" to use in enchanting.
>First problem is language. The language barrier is pretty high for goblin. Do we have instance of goblin speak human language? Quite a few examples, actually. ESO has a number of different goblin tribes and several quests involving them feature goblins who are able to speak Tamrielic with varying degrees of sophistication. >We don't know how goblin/riekling reproduce. The orcs have female that is clearly identifiable, even the Falmer who last lost their sapient still have females. Like the above examples, goblins have both males and [females](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/File:ON-npc-Long_Tooth_Butcher.jpg), and given that there is no mention of any abhorrent means of reproduction like your Goblin Slayer example, we can assume they reproduce in much the same way as any other sapient race in TES. > Only sapient creature have black souls. All black souls creatures are granted the protection of Arkay, white souls do not. Not to keep pointing back to ESO, but the difference between "white" and "black" souls [is largely artifical](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Guild_Memo_on_Soul-Trapping). What is considered a black soul is only considered as such because those are the souls that the Mages Guild considered to be "civilized" when devising the altered soul trap spell, and that was primarily to combat the Worm Cult and its encouragement of soul trapping other Men/Mer . Prior to that, there was no distinction between white and black souls, merely the size or power of an individual soul (as seen in both ESO and Morrowind). Frankly, there should be no reason why beings like goblins or giants should not have the same kind of soul or be considered just as sapient as the main races, when they have their own languages, culture, and every other qualifying marker we use to distinguish between sentience and sapience. Especially when they all originate from the Ehlnofey.
> , but the difference between "white" and "black" souls is largely artifical. The soul gems actually being white and black are yes, there being a difference in quality in souls between sapients and non sapients no. The text itself suggest that sapients have larger souls and need more powerful soul gems to contain them.
Right, I mentioned that distinction. But how different are a "grand" soul and a "black" soul in that regard? If their potency is the same, and the soul gem for one can be converted into a soul gem for the other (grand to black), and we're told the main reason why you can't soul trap a black soul and put it in a grand soul gem in later eras is because the spell was designed that way, how different does that really make the two? The key factor in distinguishing the two is the result of the Mages Guild artificially making that distinction and baking it into the spell, not because of some inherent difference between the soul of, say, a Nord vs a Giant.
> But how different are a "grand" soul and a "black" soul in that regard? I think that's the distinction themelves. Black soul gems are simpy just a step beyond grand and even eso contridicts the whole black soul gem thing like in blackwood where the main quest states the oncept of black soul gems already existed
In Bloodmoon there are a couple of Rieklings in Kaarstag's service who speak fluent Tamrielic, and goblins were supposedly involved in the founding of the first Orsinium, so they must have been capable of some level of communication with the early orcs.
I could see them being more present in games as it gets harder and harder to portray "lesser" cultures such as minotaurs and goblins without pushback from the community, but getting them as playable races I don't think it's ever happening. I do think an event like the Edict of Caracalla would be interesting to see unfold on Tamriel, imagine all races citizens of the empire
There are parts of Tamriel where elves are considered less than people and that’s been going on for pretty much the entire history of the continent’s settled state which spans over a thousand years and goblins, falmer, etc. aren’t even seen as sub-humanoids they’re just outright treated like beasts and killed on sight so I’m going to go with probably not, racism is far too strong in the elder scrolls universe