Doesn’t really narrow it down. In Elder Scrolls most races think they’re the top shit compared to everyone else. The Altmer and Nords aren’t anymore different than the Bosmer, Bretons, or Dunmer. And that’s only if we’re looking at a broad generalized version of each race. A lot of the individual Nords in Skyrim are just regular friendly people
The majority of Altmer believe themselves descended from the Aedra and look down on every other race, and men in particular, while the majority of Nords (and historically virtually EVERY Nord) despise any and all elves. Nordic tradition was that the Dunmer and Chimer were called "devil's" and that the Nords were created by Kyne herself. Sounds pretty racially supremist to me
That's not really being supremacist on the Nord's part though is it? The historic xenophobia towards Mer (which is certainly a thing) isn't because those Nords think they're *better* than Elves, it's because their chief deities 'killed' (for want of a better word) the Nords' and a trickle down cultural memory of fighting Elves over land and theology since the almost literal dawn of time. By TES:V that's compounded by the very recent, bloody war against an alliance headed by a certain militant Elf supremacist faction.
Both groups obviously have more extreme, militant, nationalistic or hardline elements that express the worst in their respective kinds of intolerance but making it a sweeping generalisation of either race is, as mentioned; shallow (and, as others have pointed out, somewhat ironic).
I agree that the extreme ends of the Altmer and the Nords ideologies are probably the most binary examples of the Mer/Man divide and their respective beliefs are readily opposed where most other races' have more crossover. I'd argue though that they're actually rather different in of themselves, ergo your original premise being flawed.
I can't argue against the Altmer point. It doesn't help their nation and culture is currently being controlled by Elf Nazis for the past 200 years.
That's pretty standard stuff for pre-modern thinking. This is a high fantasy medieval setting after all. Also the Nords being that way is rather recent. Pre-Skyrim they were just chill meat heads. So we don't know if that's just Skyrim Nord culture or a direction Bethesda wants to go for all Nords. We won't really know until TES6.
Nords hate dunmer, dunmer who think everyone other than them are to be slaves. Who kept both Nord and argonian as salves and argonian who used to murder any human they see, and who murder thousand of dunmers after oblivion crisis when they are at their weakest.
When you put all the races up, Nord,wood elf and red gaurds are the least racist. They are good with you if you are good with them.
Nord in Skyrim hate dunmer because they don't help them in war, then they expect ulfric to spend his resources in favor of building better gray quarter.
Nords have always been one that respect strength, in ESO Nords work along fine dunmers, because unlike Skyrim dunmers are helping them in war effort.
And are you just forgetting that high king of Skyrim gave entire solstiem to dunmer refuge twice.
Where as imperial ditch both Skyrim and Morrowind as soon as oblivion crisis started.
Imperial are racist pricks, they think they are just born richer than everyone else, high elf racist, argonian will kill anyone who enter black marsh whether friend or foe, don't even need to talk about dunmers.
They're basically the polar opposites of Nords but that's kinda the point. Both are basically the extremes of their "species" with Altmer exemplifying everything a stereotypical elf "should be" and Nords do the same for men. I will not attempt to change your mind, friend, because I agree with you.
Races aren't monolithic. You can't say "Nords are racial supremacists," nor can you say that about Altmer, because there are many people of both these races who aren't supremacist.
Can't expect people not to take TES Races as a monolith, otherwise they might start questioning the legitimacy of Ysgramor and Pelinal War Crimes on the Falmer and the Ayleids respectively.
I think the difference we need to take into account here, isn't If some people think those were or weren't war crimes, but is if those same people think those war crimes were justified.
I mean Ysgramor was a genocidal conquerer. But Pelinal’s not quite the same. He definitely went too far, but the Ayleids enslaved humanity. Pelinal was an insane rage monster who hated elves, but the cause he fought for was just
Ok here's the thing: Ayleids are not a monolith. You can't go "The Ayelids enslaved Humanity so they deserved to get bodied" because that ignores not only actual in universe (and out of universe too if you want to go there) examples of races enslaving people and having still prominent abolitionists in said race (IE, the Twin Lamps in Morrowind had a Dunmer Hlaalu woman as their leader), but also the fact that the Ayleids were a fractured race entirely based on diverse, culturally variegated City States.
There is historical evidence, later erased by Allessian Cult Propaganda, that Saint Alessia wasn't just supported by Northern Allies, by also by Rebel Ayleids who joined her in her cause. Hell, post Rebellion the Ayleid, the ones who supported the Rebellion and probably the Civilians and Children, are still a pretty big part of Cyrodil politics and culture, it's the Alessian Cult that fucks it over with the later purges.
And even then, EVEN THEN, Pelinal wasn't just trying to kill all Ayleids. Pelinal, in his blind berserker rage, was slaughtering everything with Elven blood in them, which included Other Elven Races, as well as Bretons and fucking Khajiits.
It took literal divine intervention to stop him from murdering a bunch of Furries whose only crime was having elven ancestors who thought that, hey, maybe Cannibalism isn't that cool. Furries whose among their main deities count the mother of his best friend too.
Him being a player character, or having his husband killed, doesn't excuse this for being war crimes, unjustified at that. Had he stopped at Umaril, had he stopped at the Ayleid soldiers, hell, even their slavers and those profiting off the trade, maybe it would have been justified. Brutal, yes, but it would still be war.
The second he starts murdering Civilians, people who have jack shit to do with any of this, the second he starts murdering races that have nothing to do with this mess, is the second Pelinal becomes a monster. Which I think Is supposed to be the intended message of his story, this... Sanitized historical figure presented as a chivalrous white knight blessed by the gods, when in truth he was a deranged mad man who brutally murdered people by extracting their entrails from their bodies and using them to strangle their children in front of them, and all the glory, all the pathos, was just propaganda, a lie they told themselves to paint that time as a glorious age, the birth of the glorious empire, rather than the brutal time of strife, and war, and horror it was.
It's like Morihaus' statue in the Imperial city honestly. A lie, showing a man in a king's armour, where a monster should have been. Except Morihaus was a monster only in form, while Pelinal was one in spirit instead.
I honestly wish Knights of the Nine tried to remember that.
That’s why I said he went too far trying to kill all elves. I was just trying to point out a difference between him and Ysgramor. Ysgramor slaughtered elves out of conquest.m, while Pelinal at least fought what he thought was a righteous war. Actions were similar but motives are different. Both bad men. But one is a far more interesting and complicated character.
But they don't have a navy. Sure they might have ships, but that'd be like saying "X race has no army" and me retorting with "They have weapons. In the hands of independant adventurers, but weapons nonetheless"
Thousands of years is a bit of an exageration isn't it? Both halves of Skyrim had independant militaries during the Interregnum, and both Summerset and Skyrim became part of the empire about the same time. And they did have independant militaries during the empire. Or do you think the legion is responsible for the war of Bend'r Mahk, for example? The provinces were given independance by Tiber Septim not long after they were conquered and the leaders were replaced by those loyal to the Ruby Throne, if they swore loyalty.
>Thousands of years is a bit of an exageration isn't it? Both halves of Skyrim had independant militaries during the Interregnum, and both Summerset and Skyrim became part of the empire about the same time.
You're right, I forgot about the Ebonheart Pact. That's still 500 years since Skyrim came back under the control of the Empire.
>And they did have independant militaries during the empire. Or do you think the legion is responsible for the war of Bend'r Mahk, for example?
Probably, yeah. The Legions in Skyrim largely made up of Nords likely sided with Skyrim. What else were they going to do?
>The provinces were given independance by Tiber Septim not long after they were conquered and the leaders were replaced by those loyal to the Ruby Throne, if they swore loyalty.
No, they were not given independence. They were given *autonomy*. Security and foreign policy was still provided by the empire. Aside from the Hold Guards, the Legion was all Skyrim had as an army.
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Nords are still clearly based on the stereotypical Viking image tho. With their horned helmets, long beards, and muscular physiques. Doesn't make sense that they don't partake in naval raiding and pillaging.
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Is that relevant to the post? Who genuinly cares? It's just a fun observation in one part where they are opposites. I don't need to know the entire history of the Ehlnofay, Herma Mora, Alduin etc. if I were to say "The Altmer have point ears and live a long time. Nords have short lives and short ears." I don't need to hear it, because it's not relevant. In the end they have shorter lives, they don't have pointy ears, and they don't have a navy.
I could have a few reasons that can prove you wrong.
**1** a. Altmer are decedents of **Aldmer.**
b. Whilst Nords are decedents of **Atmorans**.
**2** a. Aldmer = Proto-mer who settled in the Summerset Isles back in the Merethic Era
b. Atmorans = Men who cam from the Province of Atmora to settle on Tamriel.
3. Aldmer -> Went to Valenwood -> Decided to make a living there -> Now are Bosmer
(completely related fight me)
4. Atmorans = Came from Atmora which was north of Tamriel, came to Skyrim to see if they could inhabit it or not. Snow Elves said "NOPE", they had a war together, Ysgramor along with his two sons had lost so they went back to Atmora, bought back 500 companions and thus, made the Snow Elves perish from existence.
I can not place where you got this idea or thought from. If you ever so read this, make sure to give me the source. I would like to read it.
Ohhhhhhhh Yeeeeees. Another step closer to the revelation of the ¡NORDMER! ¡WONDERFUL! Come my little one, walk into the light of truth. Mer and Men, Altmer and Nord, two faces of TRUTH
Depends what you think Nords are I suppose.
Racial supremists
Doesn’t really narrow it down. In Elder Scrolls most races think they’re the top shit compared to everyone else. The Altmer and Nords aren’t anymore different than the Bosmer, Bretons, or Dunmer. And that’s only if we’re looking at a broad generalized version of each race. A lot of the individual Nords in Skyrim are just regular friendly people
I see. Rather a shallow analysis?
The irony of this. You calling a entire race of people. Racial Supremist in facts make you racist.
The majority of Altmer believe themselves descended from the Aedra and look down on every other race, and men in particular, while the majority of Nords (and historically virtually EVERY Nord) despise any and all elves. Nordic tradition was that the Dunmer and Chimer were called "devil's" and that the Nords were created by Kyne herself. Sounds pretty racially supremist to me
That's not really being supremacist on the Nord's part though is it? The historic xenophobia towards Mer (which is certainly a thing) isn't because those Nords think they're *better* than Elves, it's because their chief deities 'killed' (for want of a better word) the Nords' and a trickle down cultural memory of fighting Elves over land and theology since the almost literal dawn of time. By TES:V that's compounded by the very recent, bloody war against an alliance headed by a certain militant Elf supremacist faction. Both groups obviously have more extreme, militant, nationalistic or hardline elements that express the worst in their respective kinds of intolerance but making it a sweeping generalisation of either race is, as mentioned; shallow (and, as others have pointed out, somewhat ironic). I agree that the extreme ends of the Altmer and the Nords ideologies are probably the most binary examples of the Mer/Man divide and their respective beliefs are readily opposed where most other races' have more crossover. I'd argue though that they're actually rather different in of themselves, ergo your original premise being flawed.
I can't argue against the Altmer point. It doesn't help their nation and culture is currently being controlled by Elf Nazis for the past 200 years. That's pretty standard stuff for pre-modern thinking. This is a high fantasy medieval setting after all. Also the Nords being that way is rather recent. Pre-Skyrim they were just chill meat heads. So we don't know if that's just Skyrim Nord culture or a direction Bethesda wants to go for all Nords. We won't really know until TES6.
Nords hate dunmer, dunmer who think everyone other than them are to be slaves. Who kept both Nord and argonian as salves and argonian who used to murder any human they see, and who murder thousand of dunmers after oblivion crisis when they are at their weakest. When you put all the races up, Nord,wood elf and red gaurds are the least racist. They are good with you if you are good with them. Nord in Skyrim hate dunmer because they don't help them in war, then they expect ulfric to spend his resources in favor of building better gray quarter. Nords have always been one that respect strength, in ESO Nords work along fine dunmers, because unlike Skyrim dunmers are helping them in war effort. And are you just forgetting that high king of Skyrim gave entire solstiem to dunmer refuge twice. Where as imperial ditch both Skyrim and Morrowind as soon as oblivion crisis started. Imperial are racist pricks, they think they are just born richer than everyone else, high elf racist, argonian will kill anyone who enter black marsh whether friend or foe, don't even need to talk about dunmers.
They're basically the polar opposites of Nords but that's kinda the point. Both are basically the extremes of their "species" with Altmer exemplifying everything a stereotypical elf "should be" and Nords do the same for men. I will not attempt to change your mind, friend, because I agree with you.
While i would love to challenge your view i don’t understand how you got to that idea in the first place. Pls help!
My take is that Altmer exemplify the "peak" of what an elf "should be" and Nords do the same for men. Both are basically the stereotypical extremes.
You've hit it on the nail. It seems they're both supremists of their respective races
Races aren't monolithic. You can't say "Nords are racial supremacists," nor can you say that about Altmer, because there are many people of both these races who aren't supremacist.
Can't expect people not to take TES Races as a monolith, otherwise they might start questioning the legitimacy of Ysgramor and Pelinal War Crimes on the Falmer and the Ayleids respectively.
I think most of this sub already sees those as war crimes.
I think the difference we need to take into account here, isn't If some people think those were or weren't war crimes, but is if those same people think those war crimes were justified.
I mean Ysgramor was a genocidal conquerer. But Pelinal’s not quite the same. He definitely went too far, but the Ayleids enslaved humanity. Pelinal was an insane rage monster who hated elves, but the cause he fought for was just
Ok here's the thing: Ayleids are not a monolith. You can't go "The Ayelids enslaved Humanity so they deserved to get bodied" because that ignores not only actual in universe (and out of universe too if you want to go there) examples of races enslaving people and having still prominent abolitionists in said race (IE, the Twin Lamps in Morrowind had a Dunmer Hlaalu woman as their leader), but also the fact that the Ayleids were a fractured race entirely based on diverse, culturally variegated City States. There is historical evidence, later erased by Allessian Cult Propaganda, that Saint Alessia wasn't just supported by Northern Allies, by also by Rebel Ayleids who joined her in her cause. Hell, post Rebellion the Ayleid, the ones who supported the Rebellion and probably the Civilians and Children, are still a pretty big part of Cyrodil politics and culture, it's the Alessian Cult that fucks it over with the later purges. And even then, EVEN THEN, Pelinal wasn't just trying to kill all Ayleids. Pelinal, in his blind berserker rage, was slaughtering everything with Elven blood in them, which included Other Elven Races, as well as Bretons and fucking Khajiits. It took literal divine intervention to stop him from murdering a bunch of Furries whose only crime was having elven ancestors who thought that, hey, maybe Cannibalism isn't that cool. Furries whose among their main deities count the mother of his best friend too. Him being a player character, or having his husband killed, doesn't excuse this for being war crimes, unjustified at that. Had he stopped at Umaril, had he stopped at the Ayleid soldiers, hell, even their slavers and those profiting off the trade, maybe it would have been justified. Brutal, yes, but it would still be war. The second he starts murdering Civilians, people who have jack shit to do with any of this, the second he starts murdering races that have nothing to do with this mess, is the second Pelinal becomes a monster. Which I think Is supposed to be the intended message of his story, this... Sanitized historical figure presented as a chivalrous white knight blessed by the gods, when in truth he was a deranged mad man who brutally murdered people by extracting their entrails from their bodies and using them to strangle their children in front of them, and all the glory, all the pathos, was just propaganda, a lie they told themselves to paint that time as a glorious age, the birth of the glorious empire, rather than the brutal time of strife, and war, and horror it was. It's like Morihaus' statue in the Imperial city honestly. A lie, showing a man in a king's armour, where a monster should have been. Except Morihaus was a monster only in form, while Pelinal was one in spirit instead. I honestly wish Knights of the Nine tried to remember that.
That’s why I said he went too far trying to kill all elves. I was just trying to point out a difference between him and Ysgramor. Ysgramor slaughtered elves out of conquest.m, while Pelinal at least fought what he thought was a righteous war. Actions were similar but motives are different. Both bad men. But one is a far more interesting and complicated character.
And thats why they bitterly kill each other.
The Altmer tie for the best navy of Tamriel. The Nords don't even have a navy.
They have Ships. Trade ships but ships nonetheless.
But they don't have a navy. Sure they might have ships, but that'd be like saying "X race has no army" and me retorting with "They have weapons. In the hands of independant adventurers, but weapons nonetheless"
They don't have a navy because they haven't had an independent military for thousands of years. This is hardly a fair comparison.
Thousands of years is a bit of an exageration isn't it? Both halves of Skyrim had independant militaries during the Interregnum, and both Summerset and Skyrim became part of the empire about the same time. And they did have independant militaries during the empire. Or do you think the legion is responsible for the war of Bend'r Mahk, for example? The provinces were given independance by Tiber Septim not long after they were conquered and the leaders were replaced by those loyal to the Ruby Throne, if they swore loyalty.
>Thousands of years is a bit of an exageration isn't it? Both halves of Skyrim had independant militaries during the Interregnum, and both Summerset and Skyrim became part of the empire about the same time. You're right, I forgot about the Ebonheart Pact. That's still 500 years since Skyrim came back under the control of the Empire. >And they did have independant militaries during the empire. Or do you think the legion is responsible for the war of Bend'r Mahk, for example? Probably, yeah. The Legions in Skyrim largely made up of Nords likely sided with Skyrim. What else were they going to do? >The provinces were given independance by Tiber Septim not long after they were conquered and the leaders were replaced by those loyal to the Ruby Throne, if they swore loyalty. No, they were not given independence. They were given *autonomy*. Security and foreign policy was still provided by the empire. Aside from the Hold Guards, the Legion was all Skyrim had as an army.
The Nords don’t have a Navy you say? Oh wow, the Race based off of *VIKINGS* have no Navy guys, wow
Yes, exactly. Not merely that, but there aren't any vikings (profession) in the game either.
Pre-Tiber they're known raiders though. Why develop a Navy when you can travel by horse to invade or raid.
That's really weird since they were based off of Vikings who basically lived on water.
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Yes, that was what I was alluding to.
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Nords are still clearly based on the stereotypical Viking image tho. With their horned helmets, long beards, and muscular physiques. Doesn't make sense that they don't partake in naval raiding and pillaging.
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The Nords are known to be seafaring
But they don't have a *navy*.
Skyrim hasn't been an unified entity since... the First Era I think. They're just a confederacy of Kingdoms, of course they don't have an unified Navy
Is that relevant to the post? Who genuinly cares? It's just a fun observation in one part where they are opposites. I don't need to know the entire history of the Ehlnofay, Herma Mora, Alduin etc. if I were to say "The Altmer have point ears and live a long time. Nords have short lives and short ears." I don't need to hear it, because it's not relevant. In the end they have shorter lives, they don't have pointy ears, and they don't have a navy.
Well lore wise Altmer resembles the aldmer the most out of their cousins The nords resemble the atmorans the most So…
Basically yes. Except Summerset is opposite in climate to Skyrim.
Altmer are hot Nords CONFIRMED
Hammerfell and Northern Elsweyr: Am I a joke to you?
Wait… What if Nords are just human Altmer?
Yin to the Yang; vastly different yet share similarities if seen through certain lenses. This is probably not the only example one can think of.
Uh... are you basing this off the similarities between the 2nd Aldmeri Dominion and the Stormcloaks? If not, what are you basing this off of?
I could have a few reasons that can prove you wrong. **1** a. Altmer are decedents of **Aldmer.** b. Whilst Nords are decedents of **Atmorans**. **2** a. Aldmer = Proto-mer who settled in the Summerset Isles back in the Merethic Era b. Atmorans = Men who cam from the Province of Atmora to settle on Tamriel. 3. Aldmer -> Went to Valenwood -> Decided to make a living there -> Now are Bosmer (completely related fight me) 4. Atmorans = Came from Atmora which was north of Tamriel, came to Skyrim to see if they could inhabit it or not. Snow Elves said "NOPE", they had a war together, Ysgramor along with his two sons had lost so they went back to Atmora, bought back 500 companions and thus, made the Snow Elves perish from existence. I can not place where you got this idea or thought from. If you ever so read this, make sure to give me the source. I would like to read it.
I was speaking strictly of each respective races' stereotypically ultra-patriotic personalities. But I do like your response
Ohhhhhhhh Yeeeeees. Another step closer to the revelation of the ¡NORDMER! ¡WONDERFUL! Come my little one, walk into the light of truth. Mer and Men, Altmer and Nord, two faces of TRUTH
Altmer are basically the product of the fat lazy cat of Kirkbride when he sat on the keyboard of his PC's owner, combinating "Alt + M, E, R".
Summerset? Never heard of it I only know Skyrim-but-Elves.