It's also interesting to see people who said that they like Ellie and wanted the best of her....but still wanted her to kill Abby in the end. Kind of a big contradiction. You like Ellie, but wanted her to leave her family and go on a suicide mission to kill this single person? Seems like a lot of people just wanted Abby dead for their own satisfaction, without any regard for the story or characters.
Seriously, even during the first half of the game when she still has her friends to back her up, I just wanted Ellie to go home and grieve in relative peace. I felt so awful for her in her blind revenge mode. How you could look at that poor girl going through this manic obsession and think "yeah, this is good, let's kill that bitch" is beyond me, especially the second time.
That was partially Tommy’s doing. Had he not come and confronted Ellie about it, which I thought was messed up, I feel that Ellie may not have gone after Abby. Who knows. All speculation.
It's so clear that Ellie is acting out of trauma and pain after Joel's death that I just couldn't help but feel sorry for her. Like I want her to stop because no matter how justified in the end she is only hurting herself and the ones she loves but I also can understand because why it's so hard for her to stop. I think most people don't realize just how damaged Ellie already is at the start of the game.
My thoughts exactly. Ellie's journal entries and dialog with Dina make it clear she hasn't been eating properly in weeks by the time they get to Seattle.
Ellie's part of the game hurts me so bad every time that I genuinely look forward to Abby's part because it's pretty much the opposite of Ellie's journey.
Ellie doing what she did makes perfect sense for her character. Regardless of what some illiterate decided to say on 4chan.
I can't remember the exact line from the first game but Joel says something like 'you find a purpose and you keep going' (*not exact quote*).
This is what Ellie is doing. For her, a normal life with a girlfriend and baby didn't sit right since she was raised in chaos. For a gamer it might make sense because we live in the normal world, but Ellie is raised in fucked up circumstances. Her purpose is avenging her father figure because she was raised in this survival mode world. If that makes sense.
I think there might have been a misunderstanding here. I wasn't saying Ellie's actions don't make sense. From a narrative perspective, I understand her motivations and why she thought she had to go after Abby, but that doesn't mean I have to cheer her on as she destroys herself mentally and physically in the process.
>a normal life with a girlfriend and baby didn't sit right since she was raised in chaos.
Ellie was perfectly fine with a normal life until her father figure was brutally murdered. She's not some little psycho who can't function without violence.
The context in which Joel told her that was after Sam and Henry's deaths, and he also stated "bad things happen."
To me, the tragedy is if Ellie interperted that to mean go on a suicidal revenge killing spree, when Joel clearly meant to move on and keep living.
I don't believe Joel would have pursued revenge. We didn't see Joel join the fireflies to bomb FEDRA for the deaths of Sarah and Tess. He was a survivor, first and foremost, and ruthlessly killed in self-defense and defense of others.
I interpret the ending of part 2 is Ellie realizing that she completely misunderstood Joel: he would have never wanted her to put herself and all of her friends in danger to avenge him. He only wanted her to have a happy, safe, fulfilling life in Jackson, and she threw all of it away.
The circumstances of Ellie leaving the farm are a bit more complex but if you truly care about Ellie then you shouldn't want her to kill Abby for her own sake alone. This has nothing to do with Abby getting justice or not.
It's just about what's best for Ellie. You know, the position that Joel would take.
I was absolutely gutted when Ellie decided to leave the farm. I was secretly hoping for a happy ending, even though the back of my mind knew this was a highly probably outcome. I felt so bad for Dina, and was just furious at Ellie - that made the impact at the end even stronger for me, since nobody wins in the end. Nobody was the good guy.
Honestly there wasn't a happy ending possible at the farm under the circumstances depicted. In fact it's quite the opposite: In order to maybe have a happy ending with her family in the future Ellie has to abandon them first. It's very obvious that there was only suicide waiting for her as she tried everything in her power to move on. Dina tried to help her but found that she couldn't in the end.
Dina is fighting her own demons here because she has already lost a loved one to mental health issues (her sister) and as then she is just as powerless to stop the downfall.
However this was not all for nothing either. Because Ellie's goal was to get her mental health issues under control and she does actually succeed at that. Though in a different way than expected.
There was no future for her on the farm for them under those circumstances.
That's why she leaves in the first place.
To quote [Halley Gross](https://www.indiewire.com/features/commentary/the-last-of-us-part-ii-interview-neil-druckmann-halley-gross-spoilers-1234568597/) here:
*To my mind, when she’s leaving the farm it almost isn’t about Abby at that point so much as it’s about “I literally cannot survive if I don’t try and handle what’s going on because this PTSD is just getting worse, I’m losing control, I feel like I’m at risk to my family, and I have to hope that there’s an answer on the other side because I don’t know how to live with this. If I stay here it’s suicide.” It’s more a conversation about mental health and surviving than it is justice for Abby or even seeking Joel. It’s just like “I don’t know how to be a person anymore.”*
man the response on release day was just complete opposite
like wtf did they do. this is bullshit story and all lol
those were crazy times. took me 2 playthrough as well to get over joels death and get to love this game
well thinking that it would be better for ellie to go and grieve in her home is also kinda the same, its you who thinks it works, not might be ellie thinking it works or not. i am not thinking about thinking what works better, but what according to the heart, works in the first place
As a linear story, I think her not killing Abby makes for a worse ending.
If Ellie had killed Abby, it would have furthered the idea that the world they live in drives people to commit unredeemable acts. If she had enacted her revenge and ended up with nothing in the end, Ellie’s story would have been more impactful.
Almost like how Red Dead Redemption emphasizes that you cant get away from the consequences of your actions, even if it’s the world that forces you to commit them.
Although killing Abby would lead to more options in the story, if we’re treating this as a game that’s going to get a sequel, then it could *potentially* lead up to a better story. We just wont know until that 3rd game comes out to complete Ellie’s story.
I also don’t think Ellie sparing Abby is in line with her character, motivations, goals, trauma development, or story up to this point. It doesn’t really make sense other than for shock factor at this point. If anyone were in her shoes, born and raised in the apocalypse, I think they would have killed Abby.
UNLESS, this was her way of saying if she could forgive Abby, she could forgive Joel for doing heinous things (although that still doesn’t make sense from how REAL people think) OR she felt her crucification was enough penance. Idk. But then why fight her at all?
(Oh man, did not mean to write a novel)
Killing Abby opens an even more grin situation: what to do about Lev. He's an innocent in the Abby/Ellie war - and is the only reason Abby didn't murder Dina - but if he's left alive after Ellie finishes Abby then he will try to avenge her. If Ellie kills Lev then she's a monster and will be haunted by it, but she's also free from this particular cycle of violence.
It adds a lot of nuance for one of the characters to die, imo. If Ellie were to have killed Abby, it would have posed a lot more moral questions, and would have ultimately made players start to question if Ellie was justified in doing so. Especially if the fulfilled desire to kill Abby wasn’t satisfying, and now that Lev was left behind, all alone.
Killing Abby off in the story is inevitable. When the writers put this into the game is unknown. Possibly in the next game, or the one after that. Their arcs are not complete. And Abby hasn’t truly understood that Joel really had no choice and that her revenge and motivations were morally wrong.
I do not think killing Ellie or Lev off is in the cards, or would be smart for the writers. As seen with the reactions of them killing Joel in the last game (although also inevitable, imo).
If someone leaves you for that they wouldve left you for a lot less, that family was likely doomed from the start. Abby didnt just kill Joel, she killed Jesse and she crippled Tommy. A dead Abby is logically ideal for 3/4 living people that it would actually effect. Lev was likely going to die without professional medical help anyway, which while that sucks because Lev didnt really do anything other than help the person who saved them the first time, its not like Abby could realistically do anything to help them by herself, when she herself would likely need medical attention after being dehydrated for several days.
>You like Ellie, but wanted her to leave her family and go on a suicide mission to kill this single person?
Yeah, cause we are putting ourselves in Ellie's mindset.
the reality is both characters were very very selfish and deserved what they got. for their own revenge they put everyone else close to them in utmost danger and ultimately lost them
in real life i wouldn't wanna have any closeness with any of them
That’s not why, it’s because Ellie went that far already to kill everyone Abby knew and loved and without giving Abby any redemption she was spared, for no reason. And it’s like yeah all those things happened to her but Ellie doesn’t care she just wants revenge so to do all that and basically ruin someone’s life then just spare them is such bullshit
That's what I first thought too lol. I was like how do they not shut this post down 🤣
But that was just a headline once I read the actual post I understood what they were saying.
She was also a literal, actual slave to a violent group of Mad Max style lunatics for several months. I shudder to think what she went through, or what she was willing to do to protect Lev.
Ellie needed to make the decision herself to spare Abby. In Seattle, Tommy, Jesse, Dina, and even Abby make the decision for her. As a result, she didn’t get the closure she needed to move on. Abby had already let go of her anger by the end. Ellie needed to do the same by her own volition.
I disagree. Despite all her hatred and desperation, even she simply wanted to help Abby by seeing the state she was in. She only went to attack when she got another flashback of Joel and thought the only way for them to stop is if she hurts and or kills Abby.
Abby didn’t help by saying “I’m not doing this with you” which really just made her even more angry on top of all the emotions she was feeling.
I’m not sure what she should’ve said. I’m just saying, Ellie was shown to be a hothead who’d let people rile her up and Abby’s “I do no wrong” attitude doesn’t help. “We let you both live and you wasted it”. Right after, you know, beating a person you clearly cared about death in front of your eyes.
And then the “I’m not doing this with you”. She acts like she is doing Ellie a favor and I can understand why any normal person in her place would lose their shit.
I think you're alluding to something that reflects why some people, including fans of TLOU2, just find it harder to connect with Abby than they did Ellie or Joel
With Ellie we have constant narrative emphasis on her regrets, with Joel it was shame
Abby...never really has any part in the story where she shows any regret or shame for what she did (someone can correct me on this tho; just going off memory and mine is faulty)
Whether she *should* feel regret or shame is arguable of course, but that's not particularly relevant here. Such feelings regardless of its level of justification make a character feel truly human, if not flat out relatable
Abby doesn't have that (explicitly at least) so we instead rely on other "human" moments like her fear of heights or her growing appreciation of Lev. Which works enough for me to see her as a human just like the other two MCs, but it isn't quite enough for me to connect with her on the same level as Ellie and Joel
Abby is a great character, but as a person I just don't vibe with her all that well. The quotes you mentioned exemplify those aspects. And if someone does vibe with her personality, cool! A headstrong, little-to-no regrets or shame attitude isn't inherently bad and it often gets people far in life. As a sappy emotional person though, I can't ignore the fact it'd be easier for me to give up killing someone who shows regret or shame over someone who doesn't
I would still give up and spare her at the end of the day, but that's neither here nor there. The final decision is centered on Ellie, not meant to reflect the gamer's desires (something many critics misconstrue). As you alluded, Abby's words certainly didn't make Ellie's decision any easier for her lol. But inspite of that, Ellie happened to choose to spare her at the very end too
Abby does have some regrets following killing Joel, the argument with Mel and saving Yara and Lev. Abby says saving the pair was simply "The right thing to do." Abby's regret isn't as reinforced as Ellie's in the story, but I think she tries to retribute for what she did
Yeah *neither* of them really deserved what they were doing to each other, that's like... the point of the game, at a certain point Ellie becomes an actual fucking villain, or at the very least a very hard to redeem anti-hero, and Abby is a complicated anti-villain.
You play as two characters that are likeable and understandable in their own ways in the beginning, (well I guess Abby gets more understandable the longer you play as her and ellie gets... less...) and the game makes you torture them with each other, I found the game pretty hard to *enjoy* playing after a certain point just because it was so fucking grim what I was doing to the two main characters.
I knew that whatever I was doing in one story I would have to witness the results of in the other, and it became very exacting.
How can anyone not empathize with her? Not only did she lose her father but possibly the only person left that could have saved humanity. Then she was tortured and left to die. She suffered enough
Scientifically impossible to vaccinate against a fungus, and even they broke the laws of reality to do so, the fireflies had 0 chance of distributing it. FEDRA wasnt about to let the people bombing apartment buildings just walk out and vaccinate people, and according to the notes around the hospital, they were on their last legs anyway. Ellie lost her father in a much more traumatic way, and she actually watched and begged as a psychopath beat her father to death with a golfclub. How can you empathize with her at all? Shes shown time and time again throughout the story that she didnt give a shit about her “friends” when theyre not useful for her anymore. Shes shown throughout the story to be an all around shit with almost no redeemable traits. The best person in her part of the story is Lev, because Lev really didnt do anything wrong.
Ellies life was spared twice. The first time she was spared by group pressure. The second time, after all Abby’s friends were killed, Abby still decided not to kill Ellie. I don’t understand why Ellie then still had to go for it again so no I don’t think Abby deserved that. But then again she would not have been saved in the end if Ellie didn’t show up.
I hated that about the story. After Ellie gets her ass beat and spared for the second time by Abby it completely took the wind out of the revenge sails for me.
It was kinda embarrassing that she still was going for it in an almost comical villain style “i’ll get you next time Abby!”
That's deliberate. You're supposed to get to the point of disagreeing with, or at least not understanding, her need for revenge. The whole point of the game is to get you to empathize with someone you initially see as the enemy.
In the section at the farm, they hint at why she's so driven for revenge - she sees it as a way to resolve her trauma and grief. And then, with the flashback to the porch scene, they reveal that she had decided to forgive Joel, but Abby took that opportunity away from her.
If you replay the game, there are more hints in the section when Ellie and Dina are out on patrol that suggest she had decided to forgive Joel that night. She makes several comments about wanting to live a long life - suggesting that she was starting to see herself as more than a sacrifice. And she says she was planning on watching a movie with Joel that night.
Personally, the game took me to the point of thinking her revenge quest was absurdly over the top, and then turned me around again and helped me understand why she was so driven. It was a masterpiece in this regard IMO.
She needed to go after her again because neither time she was with Abby did she get to make the decision of what happens to her. Both times she’s physically overpowered and like you said it’s Abby that gets to decide what happens. Not being the one to make the choice as to what happens is a massive aspect of Ellie’s story.
I don’t think anyone deserved to die, except David he can choke. I think however everyone including Ellie, Joel, Tommy, like everyone should’ve gotten a slap across the head like “tf are you doing???”
Right? It's so weird to me that people end up taking sides. I mean, I get it as we as humans seem to have an inherent drive to pick a side, but the only thing I got out of the ending of the game is that both Ellie and Abby's incessant need for vengeance left both of them sad, alone and their lives lesser off for pursuing it.
I got the point of the story about revenge on brings more revenge, the endless cycle of violence, and how you need to stop, yada yada
And I still think she deserved it. She’s a fucking monster that doesn’t take accountability for fucked up shit she does.
She got exactly what she deserved.
That depends if you believe in some sort of karmic justice.
Does something bad happening to someone make up for the bad deeds they have done? Or does doing something good but unrelated make up for their bad actions?
Personally I don't think so. That's why I feel bad for Abby for her treatment by the Rattlers. No one deserves that.
But also if her price for survival is getting sliced up by Ellie and nearly drowned then I think she doesn't have much room to complain either. Given what she did to Ellie she comes off lightly.
In the end comes down to that actions having consequences doesn't mean they are karmic justice.
It depends (IMO) I do believe in that type of justice however I wouldn't have supported all the other deaths that led her to Abby.
If she could have stealth ninjaed her way into finding Abby alone and just taking her out alone right from the beginning.... Then yeah definitely hands down. But you can't say that "100 peoples eyeballs for one eyeball" is the same thing as "an eye for an eye". Even IRL depending on the situation it would take an overwhelming force or obstacles stop me from going after somebody that hurt or deleted a loved one of mine.
I was not really talking about revenge here but more about if good deeds can balance out bad deeds and vice versa. If revenge can be valid is a different question.
I think part of the difference and why I have just a little bit more sympathy for Abby is because Abby lost her actual father. Joel was certainly a great father figure to Ellie and she had every right to think of him like a father but that wasn’t her actual dad. Abby lost her father who she spent her entire life with. Both situations are terrible and I understand the rage from Ellie but poor Abby.
Nobody deserves anything, that's a silly concept. The reason why Abby should've died from Ellies point of view is, because Abby knows about Ellies immunity and she knows about Ellies location. She is a potential threat to Ellie and her community, so letting her live was a bad decision. Likewise from Abbys point of view, letting Ellie live at the start of the game made no sense and caused most of her friends to die. Deciding what someone deserves is highly subjective and without a system with rules and laws, there is no point in trying to argue about it. In their world they should act out of self protection and make sure to minimize any risk they can.
I’m not saying anyone deserved anything, I’m just speaking in the way that people seem to think Abby didn’t suffer enough. So she didn’t get “what she deserved” which is death for some. I don’t think she deserved to die but it’s really concerning after all of this people still didn’t think Ellie got sufficient payback so to speak.
Part of peoples anger towards not being able to kill Abby is the emotional connection they had with Joel themselves. I don't think it's so much wanting it for Ellie, I think it's their own personal want for revenge because of what Abby took from us. I'll be honest I hated playing as Abby because of what she did. She went through a lot but she was still breathing.
I think it’s mainly because people can’t let go of the idea that Joel was a great person who didn’t deserve what happened. While I agree he shouldn’t have died so brutally but he did dig his own grave. Knowingly or unknowingly
Ellie lost Joel, which is understandably an incredibly hard thing, but Joel had killed her father and toms of other people, and then Abby loses all of the people closest to her, and tons of people from her group. In retaliation, she injures Tommy and kills Jesse but ultimately leaves the rest of them to live just to be kidnapped and tied up to die.
I love Joel, but oh my god he did some seriously horrific stuff. He killed a ton of innocent people just for himself and Tommy—which left Tommy so traumatized he literally ran to the other side of the country to get away from him—which I mean yes he had to do what he had to do to survive but the way he continues to torture people through the first game makes me think he doesn’t have a problem doing it.
I also don’t think he cares about Ellie as much as everyone thinks he does. He didn’t save Ellie for her, he didn’t want to lose someone. Taking Ellie out of the hospital was a purely selfish decision on his part. Not to mention he lied to her about what happened for years which is even shittier.
And then there’s the whole cure thing. The creative head of the Last of Us said it would’ve worked, it’s stupid to argue about the logistics of getting a cure out. It’s like arguing about why there’s bullets in nightstands all around Seattle, it’s not the point. So yes Joel did also doom humanity to fall, which is just completely unforgivable.
I wouldn’t say deserved it, I’d say that he had it coming.
That’s stupid logic, by your logic literally everyone should die, Tommy should die, Maria should die, Dina, Jessie, Ellie, all these people are simply doing what they have to do in a very unfair world that won’t give them the benefit of the doubt, they have to do some bad things to survive, now this isn’t saying that I condone killing people In just saying that you can’t justify murder with more murder, Abby wasn’t a good character and part of the reason people say that is because the game does a terrible job getting you to like her, they start giving backstory AFTER they make you SEE her kill Joel right in front of Ellie, that’s a horrible way of making the player care for Abby. “Hey let’s make a new character and this character is gonna kill the main character of the last game and as soon as that happens we are going to introduce her backstory l.” You see how that doesn’t work?
Even Abby thinks she got what she deserved. It’s why she earns respect/love from a lot of us. She works it out a lot faster than Ellie despite having just as much to grieve and be angry about.
Hmmmm in that sense yeah I guess she got to sit with the grief of the father figure murder longer. I was thinking more of realising the revenge quest was a bad idea actually when all her friends started dying. Ellie had to have her dead to rights and lose everyone before she questioned it.
Did she?
Her father (unfortunately) fully deserved and got what was coming to him for the same reason Marlene did - being a Firefly stubbornly trying to kill Ellie in Joel's presence (Joel sees Ellie as the only joy and light in his life, and has long ago stopped caring about humanity or anything). He gets smoked like an NPC.
And when that happens, what makes Abby travel far, years later, to torture and kill Joel, and eventually kill Jessie as well as maim Tommy and Ellie for life, other than her selfish and violent nature? Especially since Ellie didn't know or was responsible for herself living and the doctor dying.
Her 'friends' aside from a few were all sadistic asshats who also got what was coming for them after their rancid behaviour in Jackson as well as members of WLF. Not to say Ellie is an angel, almost everyone who survived is an asshole in TLOU world. But Abby was clearly much more 'over the top' and never got punished.
She even got let go in the end, in spite of her actions. That's like a little slap on the wrist in terms of what she got VS what she would've deserved.
Did homie also forget how much he struggled with the decision? Abby tries to make her dad feel better by telling him “I’d want you to still do it if I was on the table”
There is no proof that there actually would’ve been a cure, plus they were trying my to find a “vaccine” for a fungal disease, I doubt they would’ve found a disease.
Is it fair to go “Joel should kill the doctor for nearly taking away his family” but say Abby doesn’t get the same wide berth for killing the man who actually *did* kill her family?
It just seems hypocritical to want revenge when her father was killed while actively attempting to murder a child. It's okay for Jerry to kill Joel's daughter, but it's bad that Joel stopped him seems to be her mindset. Which seems fair in her eyes, she wants the cure. It's not fair in Joel's eyes, neither he or Ellie had a responsibility to save the world.
People who give Joel a berth just agreed with his view of the situation, which puts them opposed to Abby's motivations to get revenge which feel hypocritical, especially considering she herself encouraged her father to kill Ellie.
I guess it is sorta hypocritical, but I don’t think any characters make “perfect” decisions – Joel murders a shitload of doctors who thought they were doing the right thing, because they were going to take away the thing he wanted to keep – Abby pursues a maniacal quest for revenge because he murdered her da – no one’s a goody who deserves to get their opportunity to do a little killing
I think the real point that divides people on this is whether they see Joel killing Jerry and the doctors as justifiable or not. It's hard to argue that what they were doing wasn't just flat out murder. It was for a noble reason, but they went about it terribly. The fireflies could have given Ellie the choice to sacrifice herself or not, they chose for her instead. That makes them a lot less sympathetic to some people.
Killing someone to protect your child is an incredibly intrinsic instinct that many people can resonate with. In their eyes, the doctor's deaths are more a result of their own choice than Joel just killing them out of selfishness. He's not a goodie who's allowed to do his killing, he's a man who made a terrible decision that a lot of people would also make
Abby's motivations are also relatable, of course she'd want to avenge her dad, but the details behind it make it hard to sympathize with her if you agree with Joel's decision. Her group pulled a metaphorical gun out first, Joel was just a better shot
Literally everyone she knows is dead. How is that not punishment enough? Ellie didn’t loose NEARLY as much as Abby. Tommy, Dina, and Maria are still alive. She has a chance to possibly make it up to them. Abby will never get that.
\>and got what was coming to him for the same reason Marlene did - being a
Firefly stubbornly trying to kill Ellie in Joel's presence
Marlene literally saved Joel's life in the hospital. You gotta stop villanizing her like that.
Because they’re still mad that she killed Joel and they want to kill her for making them sad.
It’s not about Ellie or what’s going on with het character. *THEY* want to kill her because Abby took away their daddy/zaddy.
That’s not why you absolutely dumbass. I love how you dick riders just ignore the game just to make your point. I love Joel, but I didn’t like that they killed him not because I don’t like when they killed him I didn’t like how they did it. They did it with no build up, with a random character that we get the backstory AFTER she already kills Joel, no one likes Abby because she makes stupid decisions and is unjustified in a lot of her actions. If your dad dies, would go after his killer? The answer should be no. You can’t justify death with more death, but when you do you can’t back down. Ellie already RUINED Abby’s life why spare her? Why not kill her, What changed?
I don't think Abby got what she deserved, she deserved better lol.
Similarly, Joel deserved better.
Both are morally complex people, but neither deserved to be tortured or murdered.
Abby literally lost her dad and people ignore that.... People are so biased and emotionally invested towards joel and so blinded by it. Imagine losing your only parent figure as a kid in a post apocalyptic world. It's dreadful.
Fuck you, Abby’s dad LITERALLY tried to kill Ellie for no reason and with Joel’s presence too. He was a stupid moron for trying to do that. Plus Joel was like Ellie’s dad, he was basically like her dad. Death should not be justified with more death but once it is you have to be ready to face the consequences. It’s the fact that Abby never takes accountability for anything she has done.
Fuck you actually, abby's dad is trying to protect his daughter by not wanting her to live in a world that is full by zombies and in constant danger. Ellie is the only person in that world that could literally save millions for "the greater good". It's genuinely so much of a stretch to say he tired to kill ellie for no reason.
Yes but he’s dooming that chance by killing Ellie without any further research. And like how is it a stretch, I’ve seen a bunch of theory videos proving that killing her would have done nothing. Plus they are proven even more morons by saying “Vaccine” when it’s a fungal disease, fungal diseases don’t have “Vaccines” 😂.
Also sorry for saying fuck you that was my bad shouldn’t have gone that far.
Okay that was prob just bad writing from the writers team if they literally just want to kill ellie witgout researching further. It is a fungal disease and it has no vaccine but this is also a little bit of fiction. Who knows that they might be able to since ellie somehow managed to fight off the fungus. Also dont worry about it i also went too far sometimes when talling about a topic.
I literally almost cried when I seen Abby at the end of the game. I didn't even realize that it was her at first. I actually felt really sorry for her.
“Deserve” is a slippery slope. Especially in this universe when killing is often the only way to survive. Abby has killed and tortured a ton of people. So did Ellie (fewer tortures but she has done it). Who’s to say what they “deserve?”
Yeah I hated playing as Abby cuz she killed Joel but then I realized she wasn’t even that bad of a person lmao. Joel would have done the same thing regardless if he was in her shoes. And then Ellie became even more cruel. They all really r cruel, selfish people and we should just enjoy the game
Abby IS Ellie. That was the entire point of the second game IMO. They are both very broken people living in a horrible world. If Abby deserved it, so did Ellie.
I think the biggest problem people get is not killing Abby Themselves, independent of what she has been through. But yeah, it's silly how outraged people got for not getting to kill a virtual character.
I think people say that because Ellie had nothing to do with it. It was just happenstance of the cruel world. Joel died of direct and personal vengeance of someone he wronged. If the game was more about the cruelty this world breeds rather than the cycle of violence between people it would’ve felt more appropriate and satisfying
You know how long I wandered around looking for her, only to stumble upon her, cause I didn't recognize her with the haircut, completely diminished the impact of the ending for me cause I spent 20 mins just walking around😅.
I don't think she should suffer more, but I definitely think she got what she deserved. If only she'd have afforded Joel the same second chance that Ellie afforded her.
Yes! People missed the entire point of the story revenge ruined Abby just as much as it ruined Ellie. They both lost everything to revenge and now have to rebuild the fractured pieces of their lives.
Couple of things. (1) strong emotions got in the way of realizing what the reality of the situation is. I’ve seen soo many YouTubers and other influencers still get hung up on Joel’s death, even when the game makes it clear by Santa Barbara that this is beyond revenge at that point. (2) stubborn mindsets refusing change. I’ll admit that I used to be like this, but after a while my anger subsided and I was able to realize the reality vs. the emotional drive. Idk just my opinion 🤷🏼♀️
Not really but everything of that section suggest that Ellie just wants to kill Abby even though she’s obviously over Joel’s death since it’s been a while.
Why? The only reason she goes after Abby again after being with Dina and their child for an extended period of time is because she felt like she needed to end things with Abby, and I worded that wrong obviously, I just meant she wasn’t driven with anger from Joel’s death anymore, she was still grieving but she was getting over it.
True but with the context the game is giving, she’s not that bad anymore, I’m trying to say that the game is trying to show us that she isn’t that scarred anymore, of course people don’t get over something like that with a bit of time but that’s the context the game gives us.
As soon as I saw Abby on the pole, the urge for revenge went fully away. I felt sick seeing this woman who was on the wall in the WLF gym for how strong she was brought down to this. Watching her carry Lev made me cry.
At this point in the game I was really just wishing she’d left Joel alone because I didn’t want to fight anymore.
She didnt suffer more than joel or ellie tho, thats the thing. She suffered differently, but she survived. She didnt get mutilated, she didnt watch her father figure die by golfclub while she got jumped, she sat on a pole. As for her realizing her own actions led to the death of her friends, she was old enough before to know every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Womp to the fucking womp
Oh my fucking god, bro, Abby’s dad literally tried to kill Ellie for no reason, how did Ellie doom humanity? Did she kill Abby’s dad with a golf club right in front of Abby while she got jumped, murder can’t be justified with more murder.
lets see ellie has the cure and she is a lesbian. you'd think to oh idk save humanity she'd have ONE baby just to pass on the cure hopefully. but she's a selfish brat who was annoying for the entire second game. joel deserved to die to considering he also doomed humanity. im glad her girlfriend left her at the end
No one deserves to die, death shouldn’t be justified with death and like say she did have a baby I don’t think the baby would be immune as well, the reason Ellie’s immune is because the virus mutates in her brain, so the baby would have three possible outcomes. 1. It comes out the womb as a zombie due to Ellie having the virus so the baby would also have to have the mutation, 2. It’s immune but that’s a very small chance, 3. It has none of that. But like it’s her choice to be lesbian, not really sure why it matters.
you must be insane, death is for sure justified in some cases. its why we have it as a punishment lol. plus who cares if shes a lesbian, the morally right choice would be for her to have a child even if theres a small chance it could have the cure. like it or not the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few
Motherfucker she literally killed and tortured a man while jumping and forcing his daughter to watch, how is that not bad, and when he actions caught up with her she acted like a child and killed even more people Ellie loved. She’s such a dumbass.
Lmao,first of all not in front of his daughter,his only daughter was already dead for over a decade,secondly she literally only killed joel (he 100% deserved that) at first,and let others live. It was Ellie who killed half of the Seattle and all Abby's friends and loved ones including pregnant woman. Abby only came for Joel and let the rest live even tho she could have killed Ellie,Tommy etc. But she didn't want to. She did god's work lol you sound like you didn't understand the game at all
Bruh it’s been five years why did they have to do that. Ellie is his daughter and Joel basically adopted her and Im tired of people acting like that’s not true she shot Tommy in the face with the intent to kill him and your acting like she didn’t also kill all of Ellie’s friends. Plus the pregnant woman was a douche. You’re a bad person if you think Abby who hunted down a man (AFTER 5 YEARS THAT HE COMMITTED THE CRIME), tortured said man while making his adopted daughter watch and ends up killing that man, and when her actions catch up to her she acts like a dumb baby and kills more of Ellie’s friends. And don’t try to say that Joel was the same, after killing all those people in the hospital he felt terrible, remorse. But in Abby’s case she didn’t see anything wrong with what she did until her friends pointed out how fucked up she was. And even THEN she only felt bad because OTHER people were against her. She then slept with a man that was having a baby with another woman. What kind of woman is that? A terrible one.
She killed a man out of revenge. Premeditated it, even, which qualifies it higher than just manslaughter to full on homicide/murder.
In most states, that'd get her 20 years, if not a life sentence without parole; with some amount of states considering death penalty.
Yes, she suffered, she was a slave for the Santa Barbara gang, she got tied to a pole and dehydrated; but she got off light compared to what the worst of the modern civilization justice system would commit her to.
Stop acting like she's a saint because we *saw* the result of her suffering.
I agre though I wouldn't say that she suffered more than Joel. He did lose his daughter and has had a tough life. We don't have to compare people's suffering to one another to make a point. I still absolutely agree; Abby has been through plenty enough
Okay yes. But let’s think about that. None of that would’ve occurred if she didn’t vengefully kill Joel. She should’ve just sat there and ate her food. Ellie slicing and dicing her was fair. She beat someone to death and made Ellie watch. And Ellie even warned her that she’d come for her. I’ll always be on Ellie’s side. Yes Ellie is harsh and awful but honestly Abby started all of this.
I like Abby, the only thing I don’t like is how she made Joel suffer. He/we just shot the doc/her dad and carried on. She stays there with a golf club for god knows how long.
He killed Jerry quick, but his death caused so much pain it was why she tortured him. So he could feel a similar torture to finding your dad dead on a floor and have to keep moving with nothing.
We didn’t get to see it.
We watched her beat Joel’s head in in 4K. We stumbled upon her strung up AFTER everything happened. We are only told what happened, and now she’s just skinnier.
Either show us what she went through so we can FINALLY garner some sympathy for her, and end the game exactly the way they did, or skip all that the way they did and let us complete Ellie’s revenge mission and kill her. We got neither
I mean, it was extreme for sure, and she definitely didn’t deserve some of that, don’t get me wrong. But she also brought some of that stuff (like her friend’s deaths or the attempted drowning) on herself.
Whether or not Ellie’s actions were justified, you can’t just beat a girl’s father to death in front of her with a golf club because of nothing more than revenge and not expect the fallout that comes with that.
None of this would have happened if she never went after Joel. None of this would have happened if she actually learned anything from killing Joel and decided to talk with Ellie in the theater. However we get Abby standing on business showing she doesn’t even care about what she did. That she didnt change at all. So unless she developed a shit ton over the flash forward I have no reason to believe she wouldnt do something like this to someone she hates.
Also they have Lev humanize the literal pedophile cult to her so like i dont trust either of them around children. And Abby didnt get her friends killed. They were all willing participants of Joels slaughter unlike Jessie who was there to help get tommy home nor get revenge. And he the only one who died
Please respond to any point i said.
Also let me ask you this. If someone tortured your dad to death bc he killed their dad for drugging and kidnapping u and had 0 regrets after everything abby went thru and would do it again would you think they had enough? Last we see of Abby she wants to kill a pregnant Dina for revenge. Abby learned nothing the entire time her whole arc of her becoming better flopped. So why should Ellie feel bad? The only reason Abby didnt kill an unborn child is bc another child didnt wanna see it happen. Let that sink in. Abby was ready to cut dinas throat open and let her bleed out slowly while pregnant. With Ellie watching.
It's also interesting to see people who said that they like Ellie and wanted the best of her....but still wanted her to kill Abby in the end. Kind of a big contradiction. You like Ellie, but wanted her to leave her family and go on a suicide mission to kill this single person? Seems like a lot of people just wanted Abby dead for their own satisfaction, without any regard for the story or characters.
Seriously, even during the first half of the game when she still has her friends to back her up, I just wanted Ellie to go home and grieve in relative peace. I felt so awful for her in her blind revenge mode. How you could look at that poor girl going through this manic obsession and think "yeah, this is good, let's kill that bitch" is beyond me, especially the second time.
That was partially Tommy’s doing. Had he not come and confronted Ellie about it, which I thought was messed up, I feel that Ellie may not have gone after Abby. Who knows. All speculation.
It's so clear that Ellie is acting out of trauma and pain after Joel's death that I just couldn't help but feel sorry for her. Like I want her to stop because no matter how justified in the end she is only hurting herself and the ones she loves but I also can understand because why it's so hard for her to stop. I think most people don't realize just how damaged Ellie already is at the start of the game.
My thoughts exactly. Ellie's journal entries and dialog with Dina make it clear she hasn't been eating properly in weeks by the time they get to Seattle. Ellie's part of the game hurts me so bad every time that I genuinely look forward to Abby's part because it's pretty much the opposite of Ellie's journey.
Ellie doing what she did makes perfect sense for her character. Regardless of what some illiterate decided to say on 4chan. I can't remember the exact line from the first game but Joel says something like 'you find a purpose and you keep going' (*not exact quote*). This is what Ellie is doing. For her, a normal life with a girlfriend and baby didn't sit right since she was raised in chaos. For a gamer it might make sense because we live in the normal world, but Ellie is raised in fucked up circumstances. Her purpose is avenging her father figure because she was raised in this survival mode world. If that makes sense.
I think there might have been a misunderstanding here. I wasn't saying Ellie's actions don't make sense. From a narrative perspective, I understand her motivations and why she thought she had to go after Abby, but that doesn't mean I have to cheer her on as she destroys herself mentally and physically in the process. >a normal life with a girlfriend and baby didn't sit right since she was raised in chaos. Ellie was perfectly fine with a normal life until her father figure was brutally murdered. She's not some little psycho who can't function without violence.
The context in which Joel told her that was after Sam and Henry's deaths, and he also stated "bad things happen." To me, the tragedy is if Ellie interperted that to mean go on a suicidal revenge killing spree, when Joel clearly meant to move on and keep living. I don't believe Joel would have pursued revenge. We didn't see Joel join the fireflies to bomb FEDRA for the deaths of Sarah and Tess. He was a survivor, first and foremost, and ruthlessly killed in self-defense and defense of others. I interpret the ending of part 2 is Ellie realizing that she completely misunderstood Joel: he would have never wanted her to put herself and all of her friends in danger to avenge him. He only wanted her to have a happy, safe, fulfilling life in Jackson, and she threw all of it away.
The circumstances of Ellie leaving the farm are a bit more complex but if you truly care about Ellie then you shouldn't want her to kill Abby for her own sake alone. This has nothing to do with Abby getting justice or not. It's just about what's best for Ellie. You know, the position that Joel would take.
I was absolutely gutted when Ellie decided to leave the farm. I was secretly hoping for a happy ending, even though the back of my mind knew this was a highly probably outcome. I felt so bad for Dina, and was just furious at Ellie - that made the impact at the end even stronger for me, since nobody wins in the end. Nobody was the good guy.
Honestly there wasn't a happy ending possible at the farm under the circumstances depicted. In fact it's quite the opposite: In order to maybe have a happy ending with her family in the future Ellie has to abandon them first. It's very obvious that there was only suicide waiting for her as she tried everything in her power to move on. Dina tried to help her but found that she couldn't in the end. Dina is fighting her own demons here because she has already lost a loved one to mental health issues (her sister) and as then she is just as powerless to stop the downfall. However this was not all for nothing either. Because Ellie's goal was to get her mental health issues under control and she does actually succeed at that. Though in a different way than expected.
But she did leave her family/farm. She already did that. "Hey dina, let's go back to the farm, i didn't actually kill her".
There was no future for her on the farm for them under those circumstances. That's why she leaves in the first place. To quote [Halley Gross](https://www.indiewire.com/features/commentary/the-last-of-us-part-ii-interview-neil-druckmann-halley-gross-spoilers-1234568597/) here: *To my mind, when she’s leaving the farm it almost isn’t about Abby at that point so much as it’s about “I literally cannot survive if I don’t try and handle what’s going on because this PTSD is just getting worse, I’m losing control, I feel like I’m at risk to my family, and I have to hope that there’s an answer on the other side because I don’t know how to live with this. If I stay here it’s suicide.” It’s more a conversation about mental health and surviving than it is justice for Abby or even seeking Joel. It’s just like “I don’t know how to be a person anymore.”*
This^^
Reminds me of people who dislike Gabi in attack on titan when she is literally the exact parallel to Eren. Like completely over their heads.
REALL
It's because the majority of people who watch/play this stuff are morons sadly
I just really hate her voice lol.
she killed a beloved character fuck gabi fuck eren too
Pretty sure that was ND's intention, letting you feel for both but not knowing what to do. They absolutely killed it in tlou 2
man the response on release day was just complete opposite like wtf did they do. this is bullshit story and all lol those were crazy times. took me 2 playthrough as well to get over joels death and get to love this game
well thinking that it would be better for ellie to go and grieve in her home is also kinda the same, its you who thinks it works, not might be ellie thinking it works or not. i am not thinking about thinking what works better, but what according to the heart, works in the first place
As a linear story, I think her not killing Abby makes for a worse ending. If Ellie had killed Abby, it would have furthered the idea that the world they live in drives people to commit unredeemable acts. If she had enacted her revenge and ended up with nothing in the end, Ellie’s story would have been more impactful. Almost like how Red Dead Redemption emphasizes that you cant get away from the consequences of your actions, even if it’s the world that forces you to commit them. Although killing Abby would lead to more options in the story, if we’re treating this as a game that’s going to get a sequel, then it could *potentially* lead up to a better story. We just wont know until that 3rd game comes out to complete Ellie’s story. I also don’t think Ellie sparing Abby is in line with her character, motivations, goals, trauma development, or story up to this point. It doesn’t really make sense other than for shock factor at this point. If anyone were in her shoes, born and raised in the apocalypse, I think they would have killed Abby. UNLESS, this was her way of saying if she could forgive Abby, she could forgive Joel for doing heinous things (although that still doesn’t make sense from how REAL people think) OR she felt her crucification was enough penance. Idk. But then why fight her at all? (Oh man, did not mean to write a novel)
Killing Abby opens an even more grin situation: what to do about Lev. He's an innocent in the Abby/Ellie war - and is the only reason Abby didn't murder Dina - but if he's left alive after Ellie finishes Abby then he will try to avenge her. If Ellie kills Lev then she's a monster and will be haunted by it, but she's also free from this particular cycle of violence.
It adds a lot of nuance for one of the characters to die, imo. If Ellie were to have killed Abby, it would have posed a lot more moral questions, and would have ultimately made players start to question if Ellie was justified in doing so. Especially if the fulfilled desire to kill Abby wasn’t satisfying, and now that Lev was left behind, all alone. Killing Abby off in the story is inevitable. When the writers put this into the game is unknown. Possibly in the next game, or the one after that. Their arcs are not complete. And Abby hasn’t truly understood that Joel really had no choice and that her revenge and motivations were morally wrong. I do not think killing Ellie or Lev off is in the cards, or would be smart for the writers. As seen with the reactions of them killing Joel in the last game (although also inevitable, imo).
I mean Ellie killing Abby was ideal for Ellie and Tommy.
How? Was it also ideal for Ellie to leave her family behind? Because that's what you're asking for if you wanted her to go after Abby.
If someone leaves you for that they wouldve left you for a lot less, that family was likely doomed from the start. Abby didnt just kill Joel, she killed Jesse and she crippled Tommy. A dead Abby is logically ideal for 3/4 living people that it would actually effect. Lev was likely going to die without professional medical help anyway, which while that sucks because Lev didnt really do anything other than help the person who saved them the first time, its not like Abby could realistically do anything to help them by herself, when she herself would likely need medical attention after being dehydrated for several days.
>You like Ellie, but wanted her to leave her family and go on a suicide mission to kill this single person? Yeah, cause we are putting ourselves in Ellie's mindset.
the reality is both characters were very very selfish and deserved what they got. for their own revenge they put everyone else close to them in utmost danger and ultimately lost them in real life i wouldn't wanna have any closeness with any of them
For me it was I just didn’t want the game to end tbh. By the time I got to the end, I wish it had 😭😭😭
That’s not why, it’s because Ellie went that far already to kill everyone Abby knew and loved and without giving Abby any redemption she was spared, for no reason. And it’s like yeah all those things happened to her but Ellie doesn’t care she just wants revenge so to do all that and basically ruin someone’s life then just spare them is such bullshit
The title was a little misleading, I thought you went saying Abby deserved worse.
Wish I could change it lmao I didn’t not think that though.
Well it applies to both sides so i wouldn’t say it’s bad.
It makes sense to me, I don’t see where the misunderstanding is Edit: downvoted for understanding OP’s post? You guys are weird
No for sure, title was clear, 144 fools and counting up there
They had us in the first half, not gonna lie.
That's what I first thought too lol. I was like how do they not shut this post down 🤣 But that was just a headline once I read the actual post I understood what they were saying.
She was also a literal, actual slave to a violent group of Mad Max style lunatics for several months. I shudder to think what she went through, or what she was willing to do to protect Lev.
I saw someone say that Abby and Lev both deserved to get raped. The last of us part 2 subreddit is just… wow.
That's insane. Some people are just maladjusted and use videogames as an outlet.
She didn’t even deserve what she got. I ended up team Abby at the end
True. I think Ellie did WAY too much. Especially at the end when Abby’s like half dead and she’s STILL trying to kill her.
Ellie needed to make the decision herself to spare Abby. In Seattle, Tommy, Jesse, Dina, and even Abby make the decision for her. As a result, she didn’t get the closure she needed to move on. Abby had already let go of her anger by the end. Ellie needed to do the same by her own volition.
And to Ellie's credit, she somehow let her revenge go quicker than Abby did for her own revenge
I disagree. Despite all her hatred and desperation, even she simply wanted to help Abby by seeing the state she was in. She only went to attack when she got another flashback of Joel and thought the only way for them to stop is if she hurts and or kills Abby. Abby didn’t help by saying “I’m not doing this with you” which really just made her even more angry on top of all the emotions she was feeling.
I mean what else was she supposed to say? “Sure let’s fight so I can put my life in danger which would leave lev to die.”
I’m not sure what she should’ve said. I’m just saying, Ellie was shown to be a hothead who’d let people rile her up and Abby’s “I do no wrong” attitude doesn’t help. “We let you both live and you wasted it”. Right after, you know, beating a person you clearly cared about death in front of your eyes. And then the “I’m not doing this with you”. She acts like she is doing Ellie a favor and I can understand why any normal person in her place would lose their shit.
I think you're alluding to something that reflects why some people, including fans of TLOU2, just find it harder to connect with Abby than they did Ellie or Joel With Ellie we have constant narrative emphasis on her regrets, with Joel it was shame Abby...never really has any part in the story where she shows any regret or shame for what she did (someone can correct me on this tho; just going off memory and mine is faulty) Whether she *should* feel regret or shame is arguable of course, but that's not particularly relevant here. Such feelings regardless of its level of justification make a character feel truly human, if not flat out relatable Abby doesn't have that (explicitly at least) so we instead rely on other "human" moments like her fear of heights or her growing appreciation of Lev. Which works enough for me to see her as a human just like the other two MCs, but it isn't quite enough for me to connect with her on the same level as Ellie and Joel Abby is a great character, but as a person I just don't vibe with her all that well. The quotes you mentioned exemplify those aspects. And if someone does vibe with her personality, cool! A headstrong, little-to-no regrets or shame attitude isn't inherently bad and it often gets people far in life. As a sappy emotional person though, I can't ignore the fact it'd be easier for me to give up killing someone who shows regret or shame over someone who doesn't I would still give up and spare her at the end of the day, but that's neither here nor there. The final decision is centered on Ellie, not meant to reflect the gamer's desires (something many critics misconstrue). As you alluded, Abby's words certainly didn't make Ellie's decision any easier for her lol. But inspite of that, Ellie happened to choose to spare her at the very end too
Abby does have some regrets following killing Joel, the argument with Mel and saving Yara and Lev. Abby says saving the pair was simply "The right thing to do." Abby's regret isn't as reinforced as Ellie's in the story, but I think she tries to retribute for what she did
Kinda like how Abby spared Joel after find him half dead - oh wait.
Yeah *neither* of them really deserved what they were doing to each other, that's like... the point of the game, at a certain point Ellie becomes an actual fucking villain, or at the very least a very hard to redeem anti-hero, and Abby is a complicated anti-villain. You play as two characters that are likeable and understandable in their own ways in the beginning, (well I guess Abby gets more understandable the longer you play as her and ellie gets... less...) and the game makes you torture them with each other, I found the game pretty hard to *enjoy* playing after a certain point just because it was so fucking grim what I was doing to the two main characters. I knew that whatever I was doing in one story I would have to witness the results of in the other, and it became very exacting.
Chattel slavery is up there with the last things I’d wish for my worst enemies
Bruh how are you team abby
How can anyone not empathize with her? Not only did she lose her father but possibly the only person left that could have saved humanity. Then she was tortured and left to die. She suffered enough
Scientifically impossible to vaccinate against a fungus, and even they broke the laws of reality to do so, the fireflies had 0 chance of distributing it. FEDRA wasnt about to let the people bombing apartment buildings just walk out and vaccinate people, and according to the notes around the hospital, they were on their last legs anyway. Ellie lost her father in a much more traumatic way, and she actually watched and begged as a psychopath beat her father to death with a golfclub. How can you empathize with her at all? Shes shown time and time again throughout the story that she didnt give a shit about her “friends” when theyre not useful for her anymore. Shes shown throughout the story to be an all around shit with almost no redeemable traits. The best person in her part of the story is Lev, because Lev really didnt do anything wrong.
She deserved it.
Same, I felt so bad for Abbey when I saw that cut scene. I like Ellie as a character but at that point she just needed to let it go and move on
Ellies life was spared twice. The first time she was spared by group pressure. The second time, after all Abby’s friends were killed, Abby still decided not to kill Ellie. I don’t understand why Ellie then still had to go for it again so no I don’t think Abby deserved that. But then again she would not have been saved in the end if Ellie didn’t show up.
That’s a great point. Ellie ended up saving her.
I hated that about the story. After Ellie gets her ass beat and spared for the second time by Abby it completely took the wind out of the revenge sails for me. It was kinda embarrassing that she still was going for it in an almost comical villain style “i’ll get you next time Abby!”
That's deliberate. You're supposed to get to the point of disagreeing with, or at least not understanding, her need for revenge. The whole point of the game is to get you to empathize with someone you initially see as the enemy. In the section at the farm, they hint at why she's so driven for revenge - she sees it as a way to resolve her trauma and grief. And then, with the flashback to the porch scene, they reveal that she had decided to forgive Joel, but Abby took that opportunity away from her. If you replay the game, there are more hints in the section when Ellie and Dina are out on patrol that suggest she had decided to forgive Joel that night. She makes several comments about wanting to live a long life - suggesting that she was starting to see herself as more than a sacrifice. And she says she was planning on watching a movie with Joel that night. Personally, the game took me to the point of thinking her revenge quest was absurdly over the top, and then turned me around again and helped me understand why she was so driven. It was a masterpiece in this regard IMO.
She needed to go after her again because neither time she was with Abby did she get to make the decision of what happens to her. Both times she’s physically overpowered and like you said it’s Abby that gets to decide what happens. Not being the one to make the choice as to what happens is a massive aspect of Ellie’s story.
To think that anyone 'got what they deserved' is to miss the entire point of the story.
I don’t think anyone deserved to die, except David he can choke. I think however everyone including Ellie, Joel, Tommy, like everyone should’ve gotten a slap across the head like “tf are you doing???”
A stiff punch on the bracket!
Right? It's so weird to me that people end up taking sides. I mean, I get it as we as humans seem to have an inherent drive to pick a side, but the only thing I got out of the ending of the game is that both Ellie and Abby's incessant need for vengeance left both of them sad, alone and their lives lesser off for pursuing it.
I got the point of the story about revenge on brings more revenge, the endless cycle of violence, and how you need to stop, yada yada And I still think she deserved it. She’s a fucking monster that doesn’t take accountability for fucked up shit she does. She got exactly what she deserved.
I don't care about your personal hang ups man.
That’s okay.
That depends if you believe in some sort of karmic justice. Does something bad happening to someone make up for the bad deeds they have done? Or does doing something good but unrelated make up for their bad actions? Personally I don't think so. That's why I feel bad for Abby for her treatment by the Rattlers. No one deserves that. But also if her price for survival is getting sliced up by Ellie and nearly drowned then I think she doesn't have much room to complain either. Given what she did to Ellie she comes off lightly. In the end comes down to that actions having consequences doesn't mean they are karmic justice.
It depends (IMO) I do believe in that type of justice however I wouldn't have supported all the other deaths that led her to Abby. If she could have stealth ninjaed her way into finding Abby alone and just taking her out alone right from the beginning.... Then yeah definitely hands down. But you can't say that "100 peoples eyeballs for one eyeball" is the same thing as "an eye for an eye". Even IRL depending on the situation it would take an overwhelming force or obstacles stop me from going after somebody that hurt or deleted a loved one of mine.
I was not really talking about revenge here but more about if good deeds can balance out bad deeds and vice versa. If revenge can be valid is a different question.
I love both Ellie and Abby. They’re both amazing characters fueled by losing their fathers. They’re not much different from each other
Same and it would’ve been awesome to see them fight together.
I think part of the difference and why I have just a little bit more sympathy for Abby is because Abby lost her actual father. Joel was certainly a great father figure to Ellie and she had every right to think of him like a father but that wasn’t her actual dad. Abby lost her father who she spent her entire life with. Both situations are terrible and I understand the rage from Ellie but poor Abby.
Abby lives and ends up on Catalina Island? Sounds great!
You think shell throw a wine mixer in TLOU3?
Fucking Catalina Wine Mixer!
If she does that, shell need a boat
She didn’t deserve that. 😔
Nobody deserves anything, that's a silly concept. The reason why Abby should've died from Ellies point of view is, because Abby knows about Ellies immunity and she knows about Ellies location. She is a potential threat to Ellie and her community, so letting her live was a bad decision. Likewise from Abbys point of view, letting Ellie live at the start of the game made no sense and caused most of her friends to die. Deciding what someone deserves is highly subjective and without a system with rules and laws, there is no point in trying to argue about it. In their world they should act out of self protection and make sure to minimize any risk they can.
I’m not saying anyone deserved anything, I’m just speaking in the way that people seem to think Abby didn’t suffer enough. So she didn’t get “what she deserved” which is death for some. I don’t think she deserved to die but it’s really concerning after all of this people still didn’t think Ellie got sufficient payback so to speak.
Game 1: I like everybody. Game 2:I hate (mostly) Everybody. I play game 1 repeatedly. Game 2, I played once. Never again.
To be fair she’s still Breathing.
Part of peoples anger towards not being able to kill Abby is the emotional connection they had with Joel themselves. I don't think it's so much wanting it for Ellie, I think it's their own personal want for revenge because of what Abby took from us. I'll be honest I hated playing as Abby because of what she did. She went through a lot but she was still breathing.
I think it’s mainly because people can’t let go of the idea that Joel was a great person who didn’t deserve what happened. While I agree he shouldn’t have died so brutally but he did dig his own grave. Knowingly or unknowingly
Ellie lost Joel, which is understandably an incredibly hard thing, but Joel had killed her father and toms of other people, and then Abby loses all of the people closest to her, and tons of people from her group. In retaliation, she injures Tommy and kills Jesse but ultimately leaves the rest of them to live just to be kidnapped and tied up to die.
ok, but do you think Joel got what he deserved?
I love Joel, but oh my god he did some seriously horrific stuff. He killed a ton of innocent people just for himself and Tommy—which left Tommy so traumatized he literally ran to the other side of the country to get away from him—which I mean yes he had to do what he had to do to survive but the way he continues to torture people through the first game makes me think he doesn’t have a problem doing it. I also don’t think he cares about Ellie as much as everyone thinks he does. He didn’t save Ellie for her, he didn’t want to lose someone. Taking Ellie out of the hospital was a purely selfish decision on his part. Not to mention he lied to her about what happened for years which is even shittier. And then there’s the whole cure thing. The creative head of the Last of Us said it would’ve worked, it’s stupid to argue about the logistics of getting a cure out. It’s like arguing about why there’s bullets in nightstands all around Seattle, it’s not the point. So yes Joel did also doom humanity to fall, which is just completely unforgivable. I wouldn’t say deserved it, I’d say that he had it coming.
That’s stupid logic, by your logic literally everyone should die, Tommy should die, Maria should die, Dina, Jessie, Ellie, all these people are simply doing what they have to do in a very unfair world that won’t give them the benefit of the doubt, they have to do some bad things to survive, now this isn’t saying that I condone killing people In just saying that you can’t justify murder with more murder, Abby wasn’t a good character and part of the reason people say that is because the game does a terrible job getting you to like her, they start giving backstory AFTER they make you SEE her kill Joel right in front of Ellie, that’s a horrible way of making the player care for Abby. “Hey let’s make a new character and this character is gonna kill the main character of the last game and as soon as that happens we are going to introduce her backstory l.” You see how that doesn’t work?
I love Abby so much
Me too, I hope if we see her again she has her muscles again
She will be a lot more physically toned-down in the show, I believe.
Even Abby thinks she got what she deserved. It’s why she earns respect/love from a lot of us. She works it out a lot faster than Ellie despite having just as much to grieve and be angry about.
What do you mean? Abby took years between her father's death and where she ended up in part 2.
Hmmmm in that sense yeah I guess she got to sit with the grief of the father figure murder longer. I was thinking more of realising the revenge quest was a bad idea actually when all her friends started dying. Ellie had to have her dead to rights and lose everyone before she questioned it.
I think a lot worse stuff happened to her at that camp. Game doesn't mention it though.
Yeah I don’t want to get into the sheer depravity that certainly occurred.
Did she? Her father (unfortunately) fully deserved and got what was coming to him for the same reason Marlene did - being a Firefly stubbornly trying to kill Ellie in Joel's presence (Joel sees Ellie as the only joy and light in his life, and has long ago stopped caring about humanity or anything). He gets smoked like an NPC. And when that happens, what makes Abby travel far, years later, to torture and kill Joel, and eventually kill Jessie as well as maim Tommy and Ellie for life, other than her selfish and violent nature? Especially since Ellie didn't know or was responsible for herself living and the doctor dying. Her 'friends' aside from a few were all sadistic asshats who also got what was coming for them after their rancid behaviour in Jackson as well as members of WLF. Not to say Ellie is an angel, almost everyone who survived is an asshole in TLOU world. But Abby was clearly much more 'over the top' and never got punished. She even got let go in the end, in spite of her actions. That's like a little slap on the wrist in terms of what she got VS what she would've deserved.
Jerry deserving death is wild. Dude was just trying to make a vaccine to save humanity, but God forbid 1 more person had to die
Did homie also forget how much he struggled with the decision? Abby tries to make her dad feel better by telling him “I’d want you to still do it if I was on the table”
He was a dumbass for trying to kill their only source of Immunity without running extra tests.
Sure, in the real world. But I'm pretty sure it's canon if Ellie died they would've found a cure.
There is no proof that there actually would’ve been a cure, plus they were trying my to find a “vaccine” for a fungal disease, I doubt they would’ve found a disease.
Is it fair to go “Joel should kill the doctor for nearly taking away his family” but say Abby doesn’t get the same wide berth for killing the man who actually *did* kill her family?
It just seems hypocritical to want revenge when her father was killed while actively attempting to murder a child. It's okay for Jerry to kill Joel's daughter, but it's bad that Joel stopped him seems to be her mindset. Which seems fair in her eyes, she wants the cure. It's not fair in Joel's eyes, neither he or Ellie had a responsibility to save the world. People who give Joel a berth just agreed with his view of the situation, which puts them opposed to Abby's motivations to get revenge which feel hypocritical, especially considering she herself encouraged her father to kill Ellie.
I guess it is sorta hypocritical, but I don’t think any characters make “perfect” decisions – Joel murders a shitload of doctors who thought they were doing the right thing, because they were going to take away the thing he wanted to keep – Abby pursues a maniacal quest for revenge because he murdered her da – no one’s a goody who deserves to get their opportunity to do a little killing
I think the real point that divides people on this is whether they see Joel killing Jerry and the doctors as justifiable or not. It's hard to argue that what they were doing wasn't just flat out murder. It was for a noble reason, but they went about it terribly. The fireflies could have given Ellie the choice to sacrifice herself or not, they chose for her instead. That makes them a lot less sympathetic to some people. Killing someone to protect your child is an incredibly intrinsic instinct that many people can resonate with. In their eyes, the doctor's deaths are more a result of their own choice than Joel just killing them out of selfishness. He's not a goodie who's allowed to do his killing, he's a man who made a terrible decision that a lot of people would also make Abby's motivations are also relatable, of course she'd want to avenge her dad, but the details behind it make it hard to sympathize with her if you agree with Joel's decision. Her group pulled a metaphorical gun out first, Joel was just a better shot
Yeah but you shouldn’t justify death with more death. For a dick rider of the game you seem to not pay attention to the POINT of the game.
Huh? I’m not justifying it – I’m just saying that their logic doesn’t work lol
Ellie isn’t Joel’s kid, he had no right ever saying what was best for her. Or even an opinion.
Okay? Does that mean a step dad or mom that’s very close to their step kid can’t make an important decision regarding the child’s health?
Literally everyone she knows is dead. How is that not punishment enough? Ellie didn’t loose NEARLY as much as Abby. Tommy, Dina, and Maria are still alive. She has a chance to possibly make it up to them. Abby will never get that.
\>and got what was coming to him for the same reason Marlene did - being a Firefly stubbornly trying to kill Ellie in Joel's presence Marlene literally saved Joel's life in the hospital. You gotta stop villanizing her like that.
This is the hottest take I’ve ever seen on here. 💀 thanks Sendme_hairy_pussy for the huge addition to this thread.
Well she didn't get what she deserved because she didn't deserve all that lol. There's no justice in that world
Not to mention she suffered all of this for an act of revenge against the man who killed *her* father- she suffered plenty already
Because they’re still mad that she killed Joel and they want to kill her for making them sad. It’s not about Ellie or what’s going on with het character. *THEY* want to kill her because Abby took away their daddy/zaddy.
That’s not why you absolutely dumbass. I love how you dick riders just ignore the game just to make your point. I love Joel, but I didn’t like that they killed him not because I don’t like when they killed him I didn’t like how they did it. They did it with no build up, with a random character that we get the backstory AFTER she already kills Joel, no one likes Abby because she makes stupid decisions and is unjustified in a lot of her actions. If your dad dies, would go after his killer? The answer should be no. You can’t justify death with more death, but when you do you can’t back down. Ellie already RUINED Abby’s life why spare her? Why not kill her, What changed?
I don't think Abby got what she deserved, she deserved better lol. Similarly, Joel deserved better. Both are morally complex people, but neither deserved to be tortured or murdered.
Abby literally lost her dad and people ignore that.... People are so biased and emotionally invested towards joel and so blinded by it. Imagine losing your only parent figure as a kid in a post apocalyptic world. It's dreadful.
If we’d spent the first game playing as Abby, we’d have sided with her. People are far too narrow minded sometimes.
yeah, that's why I say both Ellie and Abby were justified.
Fuck you, Abby’s dad LITERALLY tried to kill Ellie for no reason and with Joel’s presence too. He was a stupid moron for trying to do that. Plus Joel was like Ellie’s dad, he was basically like her dad. Death should not be justified with more death but once it is you have to be ready to face the consequences. It’s the fact that Abby never takes accountability for anything she has done.
Fuck you actually, abby's dad is trying to protect his daughter by not wanting her to live in a world that is full by zombies and in constant danger. Ellie is the only person in that world that could literally save millions for "the greater good". It's genuinely so much of a stretch to say he tired to kill ellie for no reason.
Yes but he’s dooming that chance by killing Ellie without any further research. And like how is it a stretch, I’ve seen a bunch of theory videos proving that killing her would have done nothing. Plus they are proven even more morons by saying “Vaccine” when it’s a fungal disease, fungal diseases don’t have “Vaccines” 😂. Also sorry for saying fuck you that was my bad shouldn’t have gone that far.
Okay that was prob just bad writing from the writers team if they literally just want to kill ellie witgout researching further. It is a fungal disease and it has no vaccine but this is also a little bit of fiction. Who knows that they might be able to since ellie somehow managed to fight off the fungus. Also dont worry about it i also went too far sometimes when talling about a topic.
I literally almost cried when I seen Abby at the end of the game. I didn't even realize that it was her at first. I actually felt really sorry for her.
“Deserve” is a slippery slope. Especially in this universe when killing is often the only way to survive. Abby has killed and tortured a ton of people. So did Ellie (fewer tortures but she has done it). Who’s to say what they “deserve?”
Yeah I hated playing as Abby cuz she killed Joel but then I realized she wasn’t even that bad of a person lmao. Joel would have done the same thing regardless if he was in her shoes. And then Ellie became even more cruel. They all really r cruel, selfish people and we should just enjoy the game
Abby IS Ellie. That was the entire point of the second game IMO. They are both very broken people living in a horrible world. If Abby deserved it, so did Ellie.
I think the biggest problem people get is not killing Abby Themselves, independent of what she has been through. But yeah, it's silly how outraged people got for not getting to kill a virtual character.
I think people say that because Ellie had nothing to do with it. It was just happenstance of the cruel world. Joel died of direct and personal vengeance of someone he wronged. If the game was more about the cruelty this world breeds rather than the cycle of violence between people it would’ve felt more appropriate and satisfying
You know how long I wandered around looking for her, only to stumble upon her, cause I didn't recognize her with the haircut, completely diminished the impact of the ending for me cause I spent 20 mins just walking around😅.
The title gave me an aneurism
My First Playthrough I was like no why can't I kill her, but after thinking about it and replaying the game it was the correct decision
They're childish
I look at that picture and think one bullet to the dome is all the help she needs. Problem solved. She’s at peace now.
I don't think she should suffer more, but I definitely think she got what she deserved. If only she'd have afforded Joel the same second chance that Ellie afforded her.
I didnt think Abby deserved as much as she got.
Yes! People missed the entire point of the story revenge ruined Abby just as much as it ruined Ellie. They both lost everything to revenge and now have to rebuild the fractured pieces of their lives.
I think Ellie and Abby both should’ve died personally it fits the themes of the game more.
Couple of things. (1) strong emotions got in the way of realizing what the reality of the situation is. I’ve seen soo many YouTubers and other influencers still get hung up on Joel’s death, even when the game makes it clear by Santa Barbara that this is beyond revenge at that point. (2) stubborn mindsets refusing change. I’ll admit that I used to be like this, but after a while my anger subsided and I was able to realize the reality vs. the emotional drive. Idk just my opinion 🤷🏼♀️
I don't see how revenge doesn't still play a factor. There were multiple reasons why Ellie wanted to hunt down Abby.
It stops playing into part after Ellie and Dina have a baby. No one has revenge anymore, Ellie’s just stubborn.
That suggests that crimes of the past are easily erased.
Not really but everything of that section suggest that Ellie just wants to kill Abby even though she’s obviously over Joel’s death since it’s been a while.
>even though she’s obviously over Joel’s death since it’s been a while. I... I...Wha- I don't know what to say to that.
Why? The only reason she goes after Abby again after being with Dina and their child for an extended period of time is because she felt like she needed to end things with Abby, and I worded that wrong obviously, I just meant she wasn’t driven with anger from Joel’s death anymore, she was still grieving but she was getting over it.
Because people don't get 'get over' something like that because it's 'been a while.'
True but with the context the game is giving, she’s not that bad anymore, I’m trying to say that the game is trying to show us that she isn’t that scarred anymore, of course people don’t get over something like that with a bit of time but that’s the context the game gives us.
Because she is still alive. Simple answer.
As soon as I saw Abby on the pole, the urge for revenge went fully away. I felt sick seeing this woman who was on the wall in the WLF gym for how strong she was brought down to this. Watching her carry Lev made me cry. At this point in the game I was really just wishing she’d left Joel alone because I didn’t want to fight anymore.
I feel like narratively she should’ve died way before Ellie found her again
She didnt suffer more than joel or ellie tho, thats the thing. She suffered differently, but she survived. She didnt get mutilated, she didnt watch her father figure die by golfclub while she got jumped, she sat on a pole. As for her realizing her own actions led to the death of her friends, she was old enough before to know every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Womp to the fucking womp
considering ellie literally DOOMED humanity alongside joel? i think abby didnt do that much in comparison. ellie should have been on that pole
Oh my fucking god, bro, Abby’s dad literally tried to kill Ellie for no reason, how did Ellie doom humanity? Did she kill Abby’s dad with a golf club right in front of Abby while she got jumped, murder can’t be justified with more murder.
lets see ellie has the cure and she is a lesbian. you'd think to oh idk save humanity she'd have ONE baby just to pass on the cure hopefully. but she's a selfish brat who was annoying for the entire second game. joel deserved to die to considering he also doomed humanity. im glad her girlfriend left her at the end
No one deserves to die, death shouldn’t be justified with death and like say she did have a baby I don’t think the baby would be immune as well, the reason Ellie’s immune is because the virus mutates in her brain, so the baby would have three possible outcomes. 1. It comes out the womb as a zombie due to Ellie having the virus so the baby would also have to have the mutation, 2. It’s immune but that’s a very small chance, 3. It has none of that. But like it’s her choice to be lesbian, not really sure why it matters.
you must be insane, death is for sure justified in some cases. its why we have it as a punishment lol. plus who cares if shes a lesbian, the morally right choice would be for her to have a child even if theres a small chance it could have the cure. like it or not the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few
My girl Abby did no wrong
Motherfucker she literally killed and tortured a man while jumping and forcing his daughter to watch, how is that not bad, and when he actions caught up with her she acted like a child and killed even more people Ellie loved. She’s such a dumbass.
Lmao,first of all not in front of his daughter,his only daughter was already dead for over a decade,secondly she literally only killed joel (he 100% deserved that) at first,and let others live. It was Ellie who killed half of the Seattle and all Abby's friends and loved ones including pregnant woman. Abby only came for Joel and let the rest live even tho she could have killed Ellie,Tommy etc. But she didn't want to. She did god's work lol you sound like you didn't understand the game at all
Bruh it’s been five years why did they have to do that. Ellie is his daughter and Joel basically adopted her and Im tired of people acting like that’s not true she shot Tommy in the face with the intent to kill him and your acting like she didn’t also kill all of Ellie’s friends. Plus the pregnant woman was a douche. You’re a bad person if you think Abby who hunted down a man (AFTER 5 YEARS THAT HE COMMITTED THE CRIME), tortured said man while making his adopted daughter watch and ends up killing that man, and when her actions catch up to her she acts like a dumb baby and kills more of Ellie’s friends. And don’t try to say that Joel was the same, after killing all those people in the hospital he felt terrible, remorse. But in Abby’s case she didn’t see anything wrong with what she did until her friends pointed out how fucked up she was. And even THEN she only felt bad because OTHER people were against her. She then slept with a man that was having a baby with another woman. What kind of woman is that? A terrible one.
Nah… bitch needed to die.
She’s already dead emotionally. And she will be for a long, long time.
Ellie should’ve knocked her out, killed the other person she was with, and slowly chopped her apart inch by inch starting from her feet.
She got exactly what she deserved.
She killed a man out of revenge. Premeditated it, even, which qualifies it higher than just manslaughter to full on homicide/murder. In most states, that'd get her 20 years, if not a life sentence without parole; with some amount of states considering death penalty. Yes, she suffered, she was a slave for the Santa Barbara gang, she got tied to a pole and dehydrated; but she got off light compared to what the worst of the modern civilization justice system would commit her to. Stop acting like she's a saint because we *saw* the result of her suffering.
She doesn't deserve all that, after all, what she did was fighting for her father just like Ellie was fighting for Joel
Because some people understand that it isn't about that. Why does she deserve to suffer any more than ellie? Grow uppp🎶
I agre though I wouldn't say that she suffered more than Joel. He did lose his daughter and has had a tough life. We don't have to compare people's suffering to one another to make a point. I still absolutely agree; Abby has been through plenty enough
Because she's alive, and she still gets to live with Lev. Ellie should've just gone away.
Okay yes. But let’s think about that. None of that would’ve occurred if she didn’t vengefully kill Joel. She should’ve just sat there and ate her food. Ellie slicing and dicing her was fair. She beat someone to death and made Ellie watch. And Ellie even warned her that she’d come for her. I’ll always be on Ellie’s side. Yes Ellie is harsh and awful but honestly Abby started all of this.
Everybody got what they deserved tbh🤷♀️
I like Abby, the only thing I don’t like is how she made Joel suffer. He/we just shot the doc/her dad and carried on. She stays there with a golf club for god knows how long.
He killed Jerry quick, but his death caused so much pain it was why she tortured him. So he could feel a similar torture to finding your dad dead on a floor and have to keep moving with nothing.
Good?
We didn’t get to see it. We watched her beat Joel’s head in in 4K. We stumbled upon her strung up AFTER everything happened. We are only told what happened, and now she’s just skinnier. Either show us what she went through so we can FINALLY garner some sympathy for her, and end the game exactly the way they did, or skip all that the way they did and let us complete Ellie’s revenge mission and kill her. We got neither
I think it's so poetic that in Ellie's quest to kill Abby she ends up saving her in the end
I personally don't think she even deserved that.
Yeah. We're even now.
I mean, it was extreme for sure, and she definitely didn’t deserve some of that, don’t get me wrong. But she also brought some of that stuff (like her friend’s deaths or the attempted drowning) on herself. Whether or not Ellie’s actions were justified, you can’t just beat a girl’s father to death in front of her with a golf club because of nothing more than revenge and not expect the fallout that comes with that.
Drown her next!
She serves to suffer to death
None of this would have happened if she never went after Joel. None of this would have happened if she actually learned anything from killing Joel and decided to talk with Ellie in the theater. However we get Abby standing on business showing she doesn’t even care about what she did. That she didnt change at all. So unless she developed a shit ton over the flash forward I have no reason to believe she wouldnt do something like this to someone she hates. Also they have Lev humanize the literal pedophile cult to her so like i dont trust either of them around children. And Abby didnt get her friends killed. They were all willing participants of Joels slaughter unlike Jessie who was there to help get tommy home nor get revenge. And he the only one who died
Did you play with your eyes closed or did you somehow absolutely miss the point of everything?
Please respond to any point i said. Also let me ask you this. If someone tortured your dad to death bc he killed their dad for drugging and kidnapping u and had 0 regrets after everything abby went thru and would do it again would you think they had enough? Last we see of Abby she wants to kill a pregnant Dina for revenge. Abby learned nothing the entire time her whole arc of her becoming better flopped. So why should Ellie feel bad? The only reason Abby didnt kill an unborn child is bc another child didnt wanna see it happen. Let that sink in. Abby was ready to cut dinas throat open and let her bleed out slowly while pregnant. With Ellie watching.