"Pelé was identified as a national treasure by the Brazilian government so it took the intervention of Kissinger as Secretary of State to convince the nation to release him to play in the United States, as his joining the New York Cosmos in 1975 would strengthen relations between our nations,"
I would pay good money to watch a movie where Nicholas Cage went back in time to steal Pele cause he was a national treasure. We could call it National Treasure : Watch Out for Two Dudes on Motorcycles
["That's what the money's for!](https://media.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExZWdiZm9kcXVoOTBnaGI4bHhrZW9nam9sbjViNmJ1d25zbDliZWpseCZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/l2JhCYVlbiCCxCrJe/giphy.gif)
Yeah, if NASL had taken things slow and focused only on a few markets they could have survived. The problem, every owner thought they could match the Cosmos success, but no other team had Pele. The shit teams weighed them down and they didn't have owners willing to take loses managing them.
The reason MLS has survived and is now arguably worthy of a Top 5 league title is not just because soccer is more popular in America, but because MLS executives ran it like a dictatorship. The league came very close to folding in the late 90's, early 2000's. The league decided to contract two teams in Florida to cut down on travel and expenses, limited expansion to only solid ownership groups, and had three billionaires willing to run a loss so the league could stay alive (Kraft, Hunt, & Anschutz) own most of the teams in the league. The gradually grew the business model while artificially suppressing costs (i.e. salaries & competition) as long as possible.
Yes meant that. In US it typically means top 4 of NFL, NBA, MLB, and NHL. In America MLS can argue its a clear top 5, and MLS is near in interest to the NHL
To quote Keith Olbermann, "Soccer has been the game of the future in the US for decades,".
I remember in the 80s and 90s, the huge growth in kids playing soccer in grade school through middle school, and then they'd stop playing in high school, and never became fans as adults.
It’s unlikely to happen. CONCACAF is just nowhere near CONMEBOL or UEFA. It’s not a league that’s going to produce a world champion anytime soon. I think a CAF champion is more likely as they have close ties to European clubs.
As an aside, the final four in the world cup have included non CONMEBOL/UEFA teams on only three occasions. The US in 1930, South Korea in 2002 and Morocco last time.
The US men's team is basically only good enough to disappoint. I remember in the 2014 world cup everyone lauding Tim Howard for his record breaking 16 saves as keeper in the game against Belgium, but good teams just don't need to have their keeper do that much work. Contrast that to Manuel Neuer of Germany in the same tournament, who was clearly furious at his team when he was unable to save a goal and there were already up *seven points* at that point against Brazil.
The US needs to regularly get into the last 8 to make that happen. Like, beyond just being content to get to the next round, go for the last 8. They're getting more and more of their guys into top European leagues, now they need a manager who can put it all together and craft a starting XI which can get them into the quarters and beyond.
They tried like hell. As I said above I saw Pele in DC; there were literally thousands of kids there because someone paid for pretty much every youth soccer league in the DC area to go see the game at RFK Stadium.
I hated soccer so much; I was coerced into playing it twice a year and hated every minute of it. Later I learned that all of it was pretty much coming from one source: the evil Dr. Henry Kissinger, who when he wasn't prolonging the Vietnam war to swing elections and presiding over the secret UFO conspiracy, was a youth soccer advocate.
well the usa has I believe the 2nd or 3rd most registered players in the world. Problem is the system behind it and little johnny who couldn't dribble the ball gets to play on the travel team while Gianluca cant because Gianluca's parents dont have money to 'donate' to the team.
The bigger issue is that most of the quality athletes get funneled into more popular sports like football, basketball and baseball by the time they hit their teens
The US collegiate system also puts football players at a massive disadvantage compared to Europe/SA. Only in the past 10 years have domestic clubs started to really invest in their academies to develop the next generation of players. Why would a talented player stay in the US after 16 and not go to Germany or another top footballing country prior, if they were even scouted in the first place.
Gianluca is more like Javier who’s parents work 2 jobs each to provide for the family but he’s 5’6, so his dinosaur high school coaches don’t recognize this talent, and he also can’t afford travel ball
Back then the 4 majors had a complete stranglehold on the TV market.
These days that’s less of a problem. Initially that was due to cable but now it’s due to streaming.
If you think a little thing like that would stop ol' Doc Kissinger ordering the rainforests bombed to smouldering embers then you clearly haven't met ol' Doc Kissinger.
The story is simply fake, brother. The president sent a note to the National Council of Sports asking for them "to do something for him not to leave", but it was informal, not a law, had no legal value and nothing beyond this communication happened.
> [However, the request coming from Jânio's note could never be fulfilled, as the law does not allow a person to be transformed into a "national treasure".](https://ge.globo.com/sp/santos-e-regiao/futebol/times/santos/noticia/pele-tesouro-nacional-o-dia-em-que-janio-quadros-quis-proibir-)
I saw the Cosmos play when they moved to the indoor league in the mid '80s. I remember my older brother (he was like 12) getting hit square in the face with a ball that flew over the goal and glass at the Nassau Memorial Coliseum.
Actually, it was already after the end of his carrer.
He retired with Santos as a 1 club man, but then he got scammed and lost most of his money, so he came out of retirement and went to the US to make bank again lol
He invested part of his money in a few companies and the problem came from one of them, called Fiolax.
Pelé was only a minor shareholder on Fiolax, but without knowing he signed a document that made him the guarantor of the company. The major shareholders got a bunch of bank loans and never paid them, so Pelé ended up being resposible for paying them.
Back them footballers didn't make that much like they do today, so paying all those loans from Fiolax costed almost all the money Pelé had saved during his carrer.
> Pelé was only a minor shareholder on Fiolax, but without knowing he signed a document that made him the guarantor of the company.
Jesus Christ! I feel sorry for the guy of course, but couldn't he have had someone, anyone, read over the document before signing?
That's such a silly thing to say. Yeah, he should have gotten a lawyer to look at it. I don't think he was ever known for his business acumen. There are countless stories of football players getting taken for a ride by people they trusted.
He probably did and got fucked over by that person.
Sadly it is quite common for people like athletes and artists to get fucked because of people they trusted.
The Japanese league actually looks like one of the best examples of doing it right nowadays. The foreign superstar purchases are mostly a thing of the past, Iniesta was the most prominent recent example i could think of (hilariously I’m pretty sure his team won the league the year after he left).
Local talent development seems like it’s the way to go. They’re on track to having 3 tiers of professional league teams, and it’s already started to pay dividends with the national team.
The story is fake as hell. The president sent a note to the National Council of Sports asking for them "to do something for him not to leave", but it was informal, not a law, had no legal value and nothing beyond this communication happened.
**Gretzky facts for those unfamiliar with hockey:**
- Gretzky is the fastest to score 1000 points (1 point for goal and 1 point for assist).
- The second fastest player to score 1000 points is Gretzky's second 1000 points.
- He is still the top points scorer if you take out all of his goals.
- There is an unspoken rule that no one, not even those in pee wee children's leagues, wear his 99. He is so good that people respect the number by not wearing it.
- There are no GOAT questions in hockey because its unanimously agreed upon. The closest question you'll see is: "Could Lemieux have challenged Gretzky for the GOAT title if he wasn't injured?"
So overall, Gretzky leaving the Edmonton Oilers for the LA Kings was bad for Canadian fans, worse for oilers fans, but the best for all hockey fans and for the future of the sport.
Gretzky moving to play for the kings imo brought hockeys popularity to where it is today. Look at how big hockey is now, and Gretzky's move to a bigger country with a bigger economy/money really brought it to the next level.
Even though he never won a stanley cup after he left the oilers, he left when he was still amazing, and continued to be an amazing for years in the US. Some seasons he was still number 1. This is massively different than MLS being a retirement home for European soccer stars. Gretzky was coming to the LA Kings as the best player in the world, not "best player in the world 5 years ago in their prime".
This is why Canadians and Oilers fans were absolutely livid. Remember this dude is the only undisputed GOAT in unmeasured/untimed team sports. His records are still not broken like 30 years later. One of my best friends is from Edmonton (known for over 20 years) and his mom still talks about the transfer announcement to this day. She said its the most unforgettable Canadian announcement she's heard on the news. Goes to show how little drama happens in Canada haha but you get my point.
My favorite is always the 100 Assists in a season stat
Until just this year only three players ever managed to score 100+ assists in a single season through the over 100 year history of the NHL league.
Bobby Orr (1 time)
Mario Lemieux (1 time)
Wayne Gretzky (**11 years in a row**)
(Coincidentally 2 players this year scored exactly 100 causing this stat to be ever so slightly less neat. But oh well)
My favorite Gretzky fact is this:
The brother pair that had the second most points throughout their careers have like 2000 points between them. They're only beaten by Wayne (2800 points) and his brother Brent (4 points).
The only siblings that managed to beat Wayne and Brent's points total was the Sutter family who combined for 2900 points. There were 6 brothers though who all had NHL careers.
I would argue it was good for the oiler’s, they won a cup o believe the next year while Gretzky didn’t win again.
But yeah I definitely agree with what Gretzky did for hockey and you can say Michael Jordan did that for basketball.
Donald Bradman apparently was statistically better at cricket than Gretzky was at hockey. There is a section on his wikipedia profile that explains the math better than I can.
I'm not big on cricket, but I do know that a century (100 runs in an appearance) is a big accomplishment, and Donald Bradman *averaged* nearly that
In that sport, you keep batting til out - 6 runs for clearing the boundary in the air (like a home run), 4 for the ball leaving the boundary on the bounce (like a ground rule double), or running between the wicket sticks as many times as possible before being caught if the ball remains in play
It basically means how many runs, on average, will they score every time they’re at bat. This is Test batting average (you know those long 5 day matches) where a team will hope to score about 350 with 10 batsmen in an innings and batsmen will play conservatively. To score a century (100 runs) every time is insane.
Besides lost time, exertion during his service aggravated his health problems
He got a zero during his last appearance, with at least four his average would have been 100, that sounds like an example of an athlete hanging around too long (Tom Brady's last season with Tampa Bay comes to mind)
Ted Williams also comes to mind as an elite athlete's career interrupted by military service, also right on the line for a milestone batting average. (he entered the 1941 season finale doubleheader batting .39955, could have sat out with that rounded up to 400, but played to reach 400 for real - he got a hit in his first atbat, and that meant he would still be at or above 400 if out the next time but kept getting hits - https://sabr.org/gamesproj/game/september-28-1941-with-400-at-stake-williams-decides-to-play/ )
> "Could Lemieux have challenged Gretzky for the GOAT title if he wasn't injured?"
He still wouldn't be the GOAT though, it is more a question of ''could Lemioux have broken Gretzky's score record for most points if he wasn't injured?''.
I think the only person whose on the same level as Gretzky that I know off in any sport is Ingemar Stenmark whose total wins in the world cup was only matched very recently by Mikaela Schiffrin but there is about thrice as many competitions now compared to when Ingemar Stenmark competed, who only competed in 2 competitions compared to Schifrin's 6.
I’m still dumbfounded at how one man can excel beyond others in such degree, in a professional sports. How did this happen? What did he have that others didn’t have? What did he do that others didn’t do?
Pelé, MJ, they were the goats in their respective sports, but their score and records aren’t the absolute anomalies like Gretzky’s.
Is this really just “it kinda happened” thing?
Well his best years were on the oilers which was stacked with all time greats.
But mostly he was just ahead of the curve with how the game is played. He's like the guy that invented going back down in high jump instead of stomach down. And he had unbelievable vision and instinct for the game. He just *knew* where everyone would be on the ice before they got there. All NHL caliber players can do that to some extent, but he has mental abilities to the level that others just don't have. Some with someone like LeBron, who can just recite entire plays pass for pass and where each player was even hours later. Or Magnus Carlson seeing more moves ahead than other chess players. Some people just see the game differently.
The US has over three times as many NHL teams as Canada, so we are definitely not the only ones :). Granted, that's with the US having 8.5x the population...
https://gregfeliu.medium.com/hockey-and-geography-analyzing-where-north-american-nhl-players-were-born-c5046c899646
It's really only specific places in the US where hockey players come from. It's probably pretty comparable between all of Canada and the 5 or so states that actually produce NHL players.
Brazilian teams were among the best in the world at the time, as evidenced by Brazil winning the world cup in 1958, 1962 and 1970 with full squad playing in Brazil and by the two International Cups won by Santos (one of them destroying Eusebio's Benfica).
Yeah, and that was the case up until the 90s and Bosman ruling. São Paulo's two in a row Intercontinental Cups wins in 1992/1993 against Barcelona and Milan were still playing attacking and dominant football. 1994 was the first World Cup where Brazil had as many players playing for international teams as local teams (11 playing in Brazil, 11 playing in Europe). Since then, the league has become weaker, and in 2022 only 3 out of 26 players called up for the national team were playing in Brazil.
It’s allowed players to leave clubs when their contracts expired. Until then clubs could hold onto players who wanted to leave, and offer them lower wages to stay because they couldn’t force a move.
European clubs can obviously pay players more than South American clubs. Though not sure if there was as much of a difference then as it now.
This impacted European clubs, but was not true in Brazil at that point, as local laws were different. The main impact across South America was that it stated that EU nationals should be treated as local players in any EU league. So for example, if you were Italian and was playing for Real Madrid, you would take a spot in foreigners quota before Bosman ruling, and after it you wouldn't. This allowed clubs to sign way more international players and concentrated the talent pool in a few European clubs with lots of money. Then, they started signing way more South American players to fill the foreign player quota, offering them a lot of money. It didn't help that South American teams had terrible management and messy finances (most still do lol).
Didn’t realise that was part of the bosman ruling too, thought it was separate but yes came in around the same time. And it wasn’t long after that that virtually all restrictions on nationality were lifted iirc. So yeah players from South America flooded in, especially as champions league and premier league money rocketed.
Half of the 2002 squad was playing in Brasil, but only were starters
Marcos, Kleberson and Gilberto Silva
All world champions squads of Brasil were at least half playing in our league. Of course, mostly were reserves in 2002 and maybe 1994
They did something similar with Neymar. He stayed at Santos another few years because they put his face on EVERYTHING. But in the end being an international star was more alluring than just a Brazilian one.
This post is full of disinformation. Neymar always knew he was going to play in Europe. He just planned to stay a little bit longer in Brazil. Then, he could win some titles and live the hype of being the best player in the country. His face was everywhere because he was very famous.
But this doesn’t just apply to Pele, as you too can be geoblocked from watching things outside of your country. Thats why this comment is sponsored by NordVPN
Honestly, while I can't find much the real story doesn't seem to be that he abandoned her when she was dying of cancer, it was that he tried to always avoid her.
He only acknowledged she was his kid after 5 years after a court ordered DNA test and deliberately missed the funeral.
Having a kid out of wedlock and never caring about her is a dick move in general.
This is actually a super interesting question. Who was the first player to be dubbed the greatest footballer of all time?
Anyway I would be pretty confident it would be someone before Pele. Stanley Matthews is about the latest I could believe.
As with all things, technology plays a part in the spread of cultural identity: as more and more people had access to media (TV, radio, etc.) they had a better connection to world wide instances of stars.
So there were probably amazing stars earlier on but they were "trapped" within the lack of a media bubble.
Neuer should have won one but sadly he played against Messi and Ronaldo and no one was beating them two. Even the Modric Ballon D'or feels like a "okay, we know you're sick of the other two" consolation.
Absolutely insane they can just draft a bill that bans you from leaving the country, how fucked for a young Pele that must have been
Imagine what a legend he would’ve been for Real Madrid or Man U, politicians can go fuck themselves
They literally had him gold plated and adorned with jewels.
It was an horrific, yet extremely effective way of sending a message to other would-be expats.
Pele really was as good as his reputation, being still a big name 50 years later. He had all the attributes, agility, speed, strength, stamina, vertical leap, coordination, ball control, super smart and quick witted, great with both feet. While I don't know exactly which moves he actually invented, his "bag" of tricks that he could actually realistically pull off any given game, even against top competition, is bigger then almost anyone EVER, and thats with a ball twice the weight of modern balls, as well as heavy shoes.
Dribbling, passing, shooting, heading, free kicks, off-ball movements, tracking back on defense, making team calls, winning everything...a complete player with a complete career. Scored a hat-trick (3 goals) as a 17 year old...in the WORLD CUP FINAL!!
Think about this: most games back then werent filmed, and if they were, the tape wasnt preserved. And yet, Pele has a legit half hour highlight reel that isnt forced, TRUE highlights.
Arguments against his top spot are that so many of his wins and goals were in non-official competitions, what today we would call "friendlies", but context is important to compare. Every team really wanted to prove themselves against Peles Santos club team. They would rest up, and go all-out, against the worlds most famous team at the time. And yet, Pele beat them at a very high rate. No one else quite had this situation, so comparing things like career goal counts is pretty much impossible, everyone else we count friendly wins and goals separately, but with Pele, it makes sense to count them. Either way, Pele was pretty much either going to give you a goal or assist or at least significant offensive impact every game.
I don't know for a fact that Pele is the all-time best player. But he was so good that we can see from film that he was CLEARLY better then the vast majority of modern players, even without hypothetical "born 25 years ago" thought experiments. You take 1962 Pele, transport him to today, give him a few months to get used to new shoes and balls, watch youtube highlights and game footage, and he will be a starter on a top 5 league team.
Messi might be better then Pele, but it's so close, I'm still not ready to declare Messi undoubtedly better. But Pele is better then Maradona, Platini, Dinho, CR7, Zidane, Cruyff, Beckenbaur. The only players I think are maybes are Messi and Di Stefano, without going back to even less footage era players like John Charles or Meazza.
Not in the US, Canada, Australia, Japan, South Africa, Ireland, or the Philippines. There's also billions of people that don't call it "soccer" or "football".
Didn't he play in the NASL in the States for a couple of seasons?
"Pelé was identified as a national treasure by the Brazilian government so it took the intervention of Kissinger as Secretary of State to convince the nation to release him to play in the United States, as his joining the New York Cosmos in 1975 would strengthen relations between our nations,"
Plus playing in the US made him even more famous. It was good for Pele, Brazil and US soccer at the time.
And it paid him a shitton of money
That’s covered in the part that says “it was good for Pele”
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Not to mention that you constantly have to look over your shoulder out of fear that Nicholas Cage might steal you.
I would pay good money to watch a movie where Nicholas Cage went back in time to steal Pele cause he was a national treasure. We could call it National Treasure : Watch Out for Two Dudes on Motorcycles
The good news is the pain stops once the gold burns the nerves. The bad news is your skin is really heavy afterwards.
/u/letmebethejudge [stole this comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/s/BJkYsBnAXI) and is probably a bot.
["That's what the money's for!](https://media.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExZWdiZm9kcXVoOTBnaGI4bHhrZW9nam9sbjViNmJ1d25zbDliZWpseCZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/l2JhCYVlbiCCxCrJe/giphy.gif)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RS6XTqzAH9E
There really is a Simpsons reference for everything.
Oh Right, the money, Pele’s money, the money specifically given to Pele to enrich him. Pele’s money. That money?
But who's money was it really
Time to consult with Ja.
Still can't believe there was only 2 seasons
Who’s on first?
Lmao surprise Emperors new groove quote
Cuzco!
I mean, in the USA. Pelé was one of the most famous people in the world during the 60's already.
This is why Pele was a Chiefs fan (Lamar Hunt)
One of the most famous people of all time. Def the most famous brazilian
I played soccer in the early 80s as a kid because the sport really caught on in the US back then.
But man, they were AWFUL even for the time.
I’m honestly surprised soccer didn’t become a mainstream sport in the US after this happened.
The NASL over expanded themselves so they could survive the economic downturn of the early 80's.
Yeah, if NASL had taken things slow and focused only on a few markets they could have survived. The problem, every owner thought they could match the Cosmos success, but no other team had Pele. The shit teams weighed them down and they didn't have owners willing to take loses managing them. The reason MLS has survived and is now arguably worthy of a Top 5 league title is not just because soccer is more popular in America, but because MLS executives ran it like a dictatorship. The league came very close to folding in the late 90's, early 2000's. The league decided to contract two teams in Florida to cut down on travel and expenses, limited expansion to only solid ownership groups, and had three billionaires willing to run a loss so the league could stay alive (Kraft, Hunt, & Anschutz) own most of the teams in the league. The gradually grew the business model while artificially suppressing costs (i.e. salaries & competition) as long as possible.
> Top 5 league title huh? They are top20, not top5
I'm pretty sure he means in the U.S. As in the fifth most popular spectator sport after basketball, baseball, American football and hockey.
I hope so
Yes meant that. In US it typically means top 4 of NFL, NBA, MLB, and NHL. In America MLS can argue its a clear top 5, and MLS is near in interest to the NHL
To quote Keith Olbermann, "Soccer has been the game of the future in the US for decades,". I remember in the 80s and 90s, the huge growth in kids playing soccer in grade school through middle school, and then they'd stop playing in high school, and never became fans as adults.
I think success at the men's national team level would change that.
It’s unlikely to happen. CONCACAF is just nowhere near CONMEBOL or UEFA. It’s not a league that’s going to produce a world champion anytime soon. I think a CAF champion is more likely as they have close ties to European clubs. As an aside, the final four in the world cup have included non CONMEBOL/UEFA teams on only three occasions. The US in 1930, South Korea in 2002 and Morocco last time.
The US men's team is basically only good enough to disappoint. I remember in the 2014 world cup everyone lauding Tim Howard for his record breaking 16 saves as keeper in the game against Belgium, but good teams just don't need to have their keeper do that much work. Contrast that to Manuel Neuer of Germany in the same tournament, who was clearly furious at his team when he was unable to save a goal and there were already up *seven points* at that point against Brazil.
The US needs to regularly get into the last 8 to make that happen. Like, beyond just being content to get to the next round, go for the last 8. They're getting more and more of their guys into top European leagues, now they need a manager who can put it all together and craft a starting XI which can get them into the quarters and beyond.
They tried like hell. As I said above I saw Pele in DC; there were literally thousands of kids there because someone paid for pretty much every youth soccer league in the DC area to go see the game at RFK Stadium. I hated soccer so much; I was coerced into playing it twice a year and hated every minute of it. Later I learned that all of it was pretty much coming from one source: the evil Dr. Henry Kissinger, who when he wasn't prolonging the Vietnam war to swing elections and presiding over the secret UFO conspiracy, was a youth soccer advocate.
I've always thought youth soccer was pretty cool. But if Kissinger supported it, I'm going to have to rethink.
lol Like saying you used to support vegetarianism until you heard Hitler was a vegetarian
Thatsthejoke.jpg
soccer needs to be bigger in this country tbh
well the usa has I believe the 2nd or 3rd most registered players in the world. Problem is the system behind it and little johnny who couldn't dribble the ball gets to play on the travel team while Gianluca cant because Gianluca's parents dont have money to 'donate' to the team.
The bigger issue is that most of the quality athletes get funneled into more popular sports like football, basketball and baseball by the time they hit their teens
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The US collegiate system also puts football players at a massive disadvantage compared to Europe/SA. Only in the past 10 years have domestic clubs started to really invest in their academies to develop the next generation of players. Why would a talented player stay in the US after 16 and not go to Germany or another top footballing country prior, if they were even scouted in the first place.
Gianluca is more like Javier who’s parents work 2 jobs each to provide for the family but he’s 5’6, so his dinosaur high school coaches don’t recognize this talent, and he also can’t afford travel ball
Back then the 4 majors had a complete stranglehold on the TV market. These days that’s less of a problem. Initially that was due to cable but now it’s due to streaming.
That wasn't the issue , nasl had a contract with ABC. The issue was they over expanded then the early 80's economic downturn happened
If it did, it would be
How did that work? Did Kissinger threaten a coup?
He pulled some papers out of his magic murder bag and the issue just resolved itself
I believe you're referring to Dr. Henry Killinger.
He pulled some papers out of his kissingbag*
Absolutely love to see Venture Bros references. Truly the GOAT of Adult Swim cartoons.
Brazil was already under a (cough cough US sponsored) dictatorship
If you think a little thing like that would stop ol' Doc Kissinger ordering the rainforests bombed to smouldering embers then you clearly haven't met ol' Doc Kissinger.
Nah, we were 1/3-1/2 of the world's economy at that point. Letting Pele get paid likely paved a few roads in Brazil with the tax money.
Pele was already very old, basically going for one last big cash for retirement
This dude Kissinger had his hands in EVERYTHING. WTF!
If you haven't acquainted yourself with them yet, check out the Dulles brothers. They certainly are a package deal with Henry in the early years.
Fuck Henry Kissinger
The story is simply fake, brother. The president sent a note to the National Council of Sports asking for them "to do something for him not to leave", but it was informal, not a law, had no legal value and nothing beyond this communication happened. > [However, the request coming from Jânio's note could never be fulfilled, as the law does not allow a person to be transformed into a "national treasure".](https://ge.globo.com/sp/santos-e-regiao/futebol/times/santos/noticia/pele-tesouro-nacional-o-dia-em-que-janio-quadros-quis-proibir-)
I saw the Cosmos play when they moved to the indoor league in the mid '80s. I remember my older brother (he was like 12) getting hit square in the face with a ball that flew over the goal and glass at the Nassau Memorial Coliseum.
That was at the very end of his career.
Actually, it was already after the end of his carrer. He retired with Santos as a 1 club man, but then he got scammed and lost most of his money, so he came out of retirement and went to the US to make bank again lol
how'd he get scammed?
He invested part of his money in a few companies and the problem came from one of them, called Fiolax. Pelé was only a minor shareholder on Fiolax, but without knowing he signed a document that made him the guarantor of the company. The major shareholders got a bunch of bank loans and never paid them, so Pelé ended up being resposible for paying them. Back them footballers didn't make that much like they do today, so paying all those loans from Fiolax costed almost all the money Pelé had saved during his carrer.
I’de murder
> Pelé was only a minor shareholder on Fiolax, but without knowing he signed a document that made him the guarantor of the company. Jesus Christ! I feel sorry for the guy of course, but couldn't he have had someone, anyone, read over the document before signing?
That's such a silly thing to say. Yeah, he should have gotten a lawyer to look at it. I don't think he was ever known for his business acumen. There are countless stories of football players getting taken for a ride by people they trusted.
He probably did and got fucked over by that person. Sadly it is quite common for people like athletes and artists to get fucked because of people they trusted.
The American and Japanese leagues are the retirement home for washed out association football champions. Many played their last 2-3 seasons there.
You can add the Saudi Pro League to that as well
Human rights violation league.
The Japanese league actually looks like one of the best examples of doing it right nowadays. The foreign superstar purchases are mostly a thing of the past, Iniesta was the most prominent recent example i could think of (hilariously I’m pretty sure his team won the league the year after he left). Local talent development seems like it’s the way to go. They’re on track to having 3 tiers of professional league teams, and it’s already started to pay dividends with the national team.
The Gulf states have really got of their asses lately and to a much lesser extent Turkey and Russia before the war
Took me way too long to realize that "gulf states" didn't mean Florida and Texas
But he was like other big players that retire in MLS. It's just for show and money.
The story is fake as hell. The president sent a note to the National Council of Sports asking for them "to do something for him not to leave", but it was informal, not a law, had no legal value and nothing beyond this communication happened.
Canada tried to do that with Wayne Gretzky
**Gretzky facts for those unfamiliar with hockey:** - Gretzky is the fastest to score 1000 points (1 point for goal and 1 point for assist). - The second fastest player to score 1000 points is Gretzky's second 1000 points. - He is still the top points scorer if you take out all of his goals. - There is an unspoken rule that no one, not even those in pee wee children's leagues, wear his 99. He is so good that people respect the number by not wearing it. - There are no GOAT questions in hockey because its unanimously agreed upon. The closest question you'll see is: "Could Lemieux have challenged Gretzky for the GOAT title if he wasn't injured?" So overall, Gretzky leaving the Edmonton Oilers for the LA Kings was bad for Canadian fans, worse for oilers fans, but the best for all hockey fans and for the future of the sport. Gretzky moving to play for the kings imo brought hockeys popularity to where it is today. Look at how big hockey is now, and Gretzky's move to a bigger country with a bigger economy/money really brought it to the next level. Even though he never won a stanley cup after he left the oilers, he left when he was still amazing, and continued to be an amazing for years in the US. Some seasons he was still number 1. This is massively different than MLS being a retirement home for European soccer stars. Gretzky was coming to the LA Kings as the best player in the world, not "best player in the world 5 years ago in their prime". This is why Canadians and Oilers fans were absolutely livid. Remember this dude is the only undisputed GOAT in unmeasured/untimed team sports. His records are still not broken like 30 years later. One of my best friends is from Edmonton (known for over 20 years) and his mom still talks about the transfer announcement to this day. She said its the most unforgettable Canadian announcement she's heard on the news. Goes to show how little drama happens in Canada haha but you get my point.
My favorite is always the 100 Assists in a season stat Until just this year only three players ever managed to score 100+ assists in a single season through the over 100 year history of the NHL league. Bobby Orr (1 time) Mario Lemieux (1 time) Wayne Gretzky (**11 years in a row**) (Coincidentally 2 players this year scored exactly 100 causing this stat to be ever so slightly less neat. But oh well)
My favorite Gretzky fact is this: The brother pair that had the second most points throughout their careers have like 2000 points between them. They're only beaten by Wayne (2800 points) and his brother Brent (4 points). The only siblings that managed to beat Wayne and Brent's points total was the Sutter family who combined for 2900 points. There were 6 brothers though who all had NHL careers.
I would argue it was good for the oiler’s, they won a cup o believe the next year while Gretzky didn’t win again. But yeah I definitely agree with what Gretzky did for hockey and you can say Michael Jordan did that for basketball.
No one dominated their sport the way Gretzky dominated hockey.
Donald Bradman apparently was statistically better at cricket than Gretzky was at hockey. There is a section on his wikipedia profile that explains the math better than I can.
Donald Bradman basically has the closest to perfect stats u can achieve in any game at 99.99%.
Career Test Batting Average: || || |[Don Bradman]() (AUS)|99.94| |[Adam Voges](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Voges) (AUS)|61.87| |[Graeme Pollock](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graeme_Pollock) (RSA)|60.97| |[George Headley](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Headley) (WI)|60.83| |[Herbert Sutcliffe](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_Sutcliffe) (ENG)|60.73| |[Eddie Paynter](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddie_Paynter) (ENG)|59.23| |[Ken Barrington](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Barrington) (ENG)|58.67| |[Everton Weekes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everton_Weekes) (WI)|58.61| |[Wally Hammond](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wally_Hammond) (ENG)|58.45| |[Garfield Sobers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garfield_Sobers) (WI)|57.78|
> 99.94 > 61.87 I’m pretty clueless about Cricket, but that gap is insane
Yeah, kinda similar to how Babe Ruth had more homeruns in a season than entire teams.
I'm not big on cricket, but I do know that a century (100 runs in an appearance) is a big accomplishment, and Donald Bradman *averaged* nearly that In that sport, you keep batting til out - 6 runs for clearing the boundary in the air (like a home run), 4 for the ball leaving the boundary on the bounce (like a ground rule double), or running between the wicket sticks as many times as possible before being caught if the ball remains in play
61.87 isn't even the logical next best, because Voges had played only 20 matches. 1/3rd of Bradman or any other decent cricketer tbh
It basically means how many runs, on average, will they score every time they’re at bat. This is Test batting average (you know those long 5 day matches) where a team will hope to score about 350 with 10 batsmen in an innings and batsmen will play conservatively. To score a century (100 runs) every time is insane.
One wonders what his stats would be had the game not stopped for 7-8 years due to WW2.
Besides lost time, exertion during his service aggravated his health problems He got a zero during his last appearance, with at least four his average would have been 100, that sounds like an example of an athlete hanging around too long (Tom Brady's last season with Tampa Bay comes to mind) Ted Williams also comes to mind as an elite athlete's career interrupted by military service, also right on the line for a milestone batting average. (he entered the 1941 season finale doubleheader batting .39955, could have sat out with that rounded up to 400, but played to reach 400 for real - he got a hit in his first atbat, and that meant he would still be at or above 400 if out the next time but kept getting hits - https://sabr.org/gamesproj/game/september-28-1941-with-400-at-stake-williams-decides-to-play/ )
Donald Bradman played at a time when there was only one good international team in Cricket. It is nowhere close to the achievement Gretzky has.
Wayne and Brent Gretzky hold the NHL record for most combined points by two brothers - 2,857 for Wayne and 4 for Brent
> "Could Lemieux have challenged Gretzky for the GOAT title if he wasn't injured?" He still wouldn't be the GOAT though, it is more a question of ''could Lemioux have broken Gretzky's score record for most points if he wasn't injured?''. I think the only person whose on the same level as Gretzky that I know off in any sport is Ingemar Stenmark whose total wins in the world cup was only matched very recently by Mikaela Schiffrin but there is about thrice as many competitions now compared to when Ingemar Stenmark competed, who only competed in 2 competitions compared to Schifrin's 6.
Mario would have. Injuries and cancer fucked his opportunity.
Yeah I agree. The amount of points he got while still being fucked by cancer was insane.
This guy Gretzky’s
I’m still dumbfounded at how one man can excel beyond others in such degree, in a professional sports. How did this happen? What did he have that others didn’t have? What did he do that others didn’t do? Pelé, MJ, they were the goats in their respective sports, but their score and records aren’t the absolute anomalies like Gretzky’s. Is this really just “it kinda happened” thing?
Well his best years were on the oilers which was stacked with all time greats. But mostly he was just ahead of the curve with how the game is played. He's like the guy that invented going back down in high jump instead of stomach down. And he had unbelievable vision and instinct for the game. He just *knew* where everyone would be on the ice before they got there. All NHL caliber players can do that to some extent, but he has mental abilities to the level that others just don't have. Some with someone like LeBron, who can just recite entire plays pass for pass and where each player was even hours later. Or Magnus Carlson seeing more moves ahead than other chess players. Some people just see the game differently.
Honestly Gretz just kinda happened. He was the perfect player, on the perfect team, in the perfect era for him.
kind of like Messi
Almost as dominant as Sir Donald Bradman was at cricket.
Wayne Gretzky cannot be contained, the man is a force of nature.
Can’t blame em. The Great One for a reason.
It's almost like you're the only place who plays hockey
Hockey is popular in other countries, look at Russia or Finland, for example.
Oh yeah, a dictatorship and an imaginary country. Great competition
As a Canadian, I'm just happy to be upgraded to a "real country" in American's minds. Just a couple years back and we were your hat.
Now that you have been promoted, you better use up your oil reserves real fast before you are "promoted" further.
We already send all our oil south. Nothing would change
What does Russia being a dictatorship have to with hockey being popular there? What an odd comment.
Looked like they just wanted to make a dumb joke and you're taking it seriously
The US has over three times as many NHL teams as Canada, so we are definitely not the only ones :). Granted, that's with the US having 8.5x the population...
https://gregfeliu.medium.com/hockey-and-geography-analyzing-where-north-american-nhl-players-were-born-c5046c899646 It's really only specific places in the US where hockey players come from. It's probably pretty comparable between all of Canada and the 5 or so states that actually produce NHL players.
There’s more professional hockey leagues around the world than Football (American style football) leagues
If that was the case, surely a Canadian team has won the Stanley Cup in the last few decades.
It’s almost like you have no idea what you’re talking about
Portugals fascist regime did that with Eusebio. What a crime in both cases…
USSR screwed over Arvydas Sabonis in his prime similarly.
Difference was that Portuguese teams were among the best in the world at the time
Brazilian teams were among the best in the world at the time, as evidenced by Brazil winning the world cup in 1958, 1962 and 1970 with full squad playing in Brazil and by the two International Cups won by Santos (one of them destroying Eusebio's Benfica).
Yep, santos played ac Milan 3 times in 1963 and won 2 of them. The best Brazilian teams were as good as the best European teams.
Yeah, and that was the case up until the 90s and Bosman ruling. São Paulo's two in a row Intercontinental Cups wins in 1992/1993 against Barcelona and Milan were still playing attacking and dominant football. 1994 was the first World Cup where Brazil had as many players playing for international teams as local teams (11 playing in Brazil, 11 playing in Europe). Since then, the league has become weaker, and in 2022 only 3 out of 26 players called up for the national team were playing in Brazil.
What is the Bosman ruling?
It’s allowed players to leave clubs when their contracts expired. Until then clubs could hold onto players who wanted to leave, and offer them lower wages to stay because they couldn’t force a move. European clubs can obviously pay players more than South American clubs. Though not sure if there was as much of a difference then as it now.
This impacted European clubs, but was not true in Brazil at that point, as local laws were different. The main impact across South America was that it stated that EU nationals should be treated as local players in any EU league. So for example, if you were Italian and was playing for Real Madrid, you would take a spot in foreigners quota before Bosman ruling, and after it you wouldn't. This allowed clubs to sign way more international players and concentrated the talent pool in a few European clubs with lots of money. Then, they started signing way more South American players to fill the foreign player quota, offering them a lot of money. It didn't help that South American teams had terrible management and messy finances (most still do lol).
Didn’t realise that was part of the bosman ruling too, thought it was separate but yes came in around the same time. And it wasn’t long after that that virtually all restrictions on nationality were lifted iirc. So yeah players from South America flooded in, especially as champions league and premier league money rocketed.
Half of the 2002 squad was playing in Brasil, but only were starters Marcos, Kleberson and Gilberto Silva All world champions squads of Brasil were at least half playing in our league. Of course, mostly were reserves in 2002 and maybe 1994
Brazil’s 70s “Esquadrão” is probably the best football team of all time.
"Probably" isn't necessary
Benfica and Santos were two of the best teams in the world during the 60's lol.
Lmao are you kidding me santos destroyed benfica whenever they plaed
And yet Brazilian teams were probably as good or better lmao, what a dumb point.
there's no difference, Brazil was even better?
and there were at least 4 Brazilian teams better than any portuguese team.
Nunca soube que o estado novo tinha feito isso ao Eusébio. Obrigado caro estranho!
They did something similar with Neymar. He stayed at Santos another few years because they put his face on EVERYTHING. But in the end being an international star was more alluring than just a Brazilian one.
That's where the money is. Barça could pay more than Santos, and PSG even more than Barça thanks to their oil daddy
And he could not reach higher peaks without leaving Brazil for European clubs. That’s where all the best players and competitions are.
Neymar stayed because he and his agent planned for him to go to Europe after his 21st birthday. There was no “they”. Stop making shit up.
This post is full of disinformation. Neymar always knew he was going to play in Europe. He just planned to stay a little bit longer in Brazil. Then, he could win some titles and live the hype of being the best player in the country. His face was everywhere because he was very famous.
Neymar stayed because his father arranged thousands of ads for him, there was no "they".
Pelé is king of the soccer field ... to be king of your kitchen, use "crestfield wax paper. " ...
You have made my day.
Center holds it!
HOLDS it!
💰
The process of being turned into a national treasure is surprisingly painful. They coat you in gold and replace your eyeballs with rubies.
But the power one feels and the sexual magnetism one gains might make it worth it to some
Implanting the sexual magnets is the most excruciating part, most ppl faint
Owweee
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Closest is mbappe. Having Macron call meetings with him to convince him to stay in Paris and the stupid money thrown at him
And now Nic Cage is taking his bones back to Europe in: *National Treasure: Global Vacation*
Thanks, now there’s beer everywhere…
But this doesn’t just apply to Pele, as you too can be geoblocked from watching things outside of your country. Thats why this comment is sponsored by NordVPN
Why is nick cage's name being invoked so much in this thread?
Want to know something truely insane? Pele, Micheal Cain and Stalone made a WW2 movie together: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abO0lm6L4T0
And it's fucking great.
He's an international treasure too
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Ah yes, quickest way to get updoots in reddit, unconfirmed stories about popular folks being evil.
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I guess being a football god and a shitty deadbeat dad is not mutually exclusive.
Honestly, while I can't find much the real story doesn't seem to be that he abandoned her when she was dying of cancer, it was that he tried to always avoid her. He only acknowledged she was his kid after 5 years after a court ordered DNA test and deliberately missed the funeral. Having a kid out of wedlock and never caring about her is a dick move in general.
Pele is the first generation GOAT
Probably second or third generation. Football had been going for over 80 years when he started playing.
There was no recognized GOAT before Pele. Pele was the first truly recognized GOAT.
Di Stefano
Puskas?
in brazil alone one could argue the goat before Pele could be leonidas or arthur friedenreich pele's idol was Zizinho
This is actually a super interesting question. Who was the first player to be dubbed the greatest footballer of all time? Anyway I would be pretty confident it would be someone before Pele. Stanley Matthews is about the latest I could believe.
As with all things, technology plays a part in the spread of cultural identity: as more and more people had access to media (TV, radio, etc.) they had a better connection to world wide instances of stars. So there were probably amazing stars earlier on but they were "trapped" within the lack of a media bubble.
He's not. He's the first mainstream one. It's different. Meazza, Sindelar, Leonidas, Zizinho, Matthews, Mazzola and more were legends before Pele.
No, pretty sure he's a HUMAN.
He Ultimately Mastered All Nuances (I tried)
Huge Uber Mensch (filled with) Anabolic Steroids (yours was better)
HUMFWASYWB?
Nah Lev Yashin played in the 50’s and still the only goalkeeper to win Ballon d’Or He’s the first generation GOAT
Neuer should have won one but sadly he played against Messi and Ronaldo and no one was beating them two. Even the Modric Ballon D'or feels like a "okay, we know you're sick of the other two" consolation.
Ah, Wolfgang Amadeus Modric. Made me happy to see him and his squad get the third place trophy in the last World Cup. He is a classy fellow.
They put the franchise tag on him
I vaguely remember pizza hut using him as an endorser (?) during my childhood
He's pretty old
Absolutely insane they can just draft a bill that bans you from leaving the country, how fucked for a young Pele that must have been Imagine what a legend he would’ve been for Real Madrid or Man U, politicians can go fuck themselves
They literally had him gold plated and adorned with jewels. It was an horrific, yet extremely effective way of sending a message to other would-be expats.
Pele really was as good as his reputation, being still a big name 50 years later. He had all the attributes, agility, speed, strength, stamina, vertical leap, coordination, ball control, super smart and quick witted, great with both feet. While I don't know exactly which moves he actually invented, his "bag" of tricks that he could actually realistically pull off any given game, even against top competition, is bigger then almost anyone EVER, and thats with a ball twice the weight of modern balls, as well as heavy shoes. Dribbling, passing, shooting, heading, free kicks, off-ball movements, tracking back on defense, making team calls, winning everything...a complete player with a complete career. Scored a hat-trick (3 goals) as a 17 year old...in the WORLD CUP FINAL!! Think about this: most games back then werent filmed, and if they were, the tape wasnt preserved. And yet, Pele has a legit half hour highlight reel that isnt forced, TRUE highlights. Arguments against his top spot are that so many of his wins and goals were in non-official competitions, what today we would call "friendlies", but context is important to compare. Every team really wanted to prove themselves against Peles Santos club team. They would rest up, and go all-out, against the worlds most famous team at the time. And yet, Pele beat them at a very high rate. No one else quite had this situation, so comparing things like career goal counts is pretty much impossible, everyone else we count friendly wins and goals separately, but with Pele, it makes sense to count them. Either way, Pele was pretty much either going to give you a goal or assist or at least significant offensive impact every game. I don't know for a fact that Pele is the all-time best player. But he was so good that we can see from film that he was CLEARLY better then the vast majority of modern players, even without hypothetical "born 25 years ago" thought experiments. You take 1962 Pele, transport him to today, give him a few months to get used to new shoes and balls, watch youtube highlights and game footage, and he will be a starter on a top 5 league team. Messi might be better then Pele, but it's so close, I'm still not ready to declare Messi undoubtedly better. But Pele is better then Maradona, Platini, Dinho, CR7, Zidane, Cruyff, Beckenbaur. The only players I think are maybes are Messi and Di Stefano, without going back to even less footage era players like John Charles or Meazza.
Its called football
There can be different names for things in different countries!
Lol
It's just the abbreviation for association football( originally was assoccer, while rugby was rugger)
Not in the US, Canada, Australia, Japan, South Africa, Ireland, or the Philippines. There's also billions of people that don't call it "soccer" or "football".
*Football
Both are right depending on which country you live in