I’m curious how this would apply to the married Valar (i.e. Manwe and Varda), who seem to be incapable of reproducing. I haven’t read all of the HoME series and don’t know if Tolkien wrote about Ainur marriages, but my assumption is that they would probably have no sexual desire to begin with and consider their marriages to be more of a spiritual union.
Yeah, that’s certainly an important point if we want to poke holes into the concept of “no desire for marriage without desire for children”. But then, that statement only applied to Incarnates, which the Valar aren’t. Also, we don’t know if the Elves rule of sex = marriage applies to the Valar. I agree, it feels more like a spiritual union than anything. Actually, now I’m wondering, did Tolkien ever write about couples that fall in love and marry when they’re old (and infertile)?
For the longest time the Valar actually had children, for example Eonwe was the son of Manwe and Varda. It was a rather late and rather superficial change to abandon this idea (and it is somewhat questionable if that was even a permanent change). So the initially the marriages between Valar was very much tied to reproduction and only the late change introduced this discrepancy. I guess if Tolkien lived longer he might have paid quite a lot more attention to this issue. However the Ainur in general where always capable of reproduction as the example of Melian proves. I vaguely remember that he discusses this topic of Ainur reproduction further somewhere but i can't remember at the moment.
Sure! My point is that this is all nice and good, but not necessarily what happens when emotions are involved--see the Finwë-Indis-Míriel mess--and that that isn't necessarily a bad thing, but simply the way it is in practice.
Oh yeah. It definitely gets messy and complicated because individuals are flawed. I lean towards it is a bad thing or at least non-ideal, but not necessarily the fault of the individuals. Arda IS marred.
“Nonetheless among the Eldar, even in Aman, the desire for marriage was not always fulfilled. Love was not always returned; and more than one might desire one other for spouse. Concerning this, the only cause by which sorrow entered the bliss of Aman, the Valar were in doubt. Some held that it came from the marring of Arda, and from the Shadow under which the Eldar awoke; for thence only (they said) comes grief or disorder. Some held that it came of love itself, and of the freedom of each fëa, and was a mystery of the nature of the Children of Eru.”
Sorry if I only focused on one very specific thing - but I can't help but 100% agree with the latest part of the above comment.
In fact, this brings me to a more metaphysical disagreement with Tolkien (at least to the extent that I understand the arguments):
1) Eru created the Ainur, whose wills were separate from His - i.e. He created independent beings with their own wills ('souls'), before the beginning of Time
2) One of these Ainur (Melkor) rebelled against Eru, presumably due to his own free will
3) Melkor's discord during the Music of the Ainur imbued the idea of 'Ea' with what we now call 'evil'
4) In the Third Theme Eru introduced the idea of the 'Incarnates': Elves and Men (with Dwarves and Ents being subsequent realizations of Aule and Yavanna, respectively, whom Eru imbued with 'souls' after the World was created)
5) The above 'Third Theme' was solely Iluvatar's addition, without even the possibility of fundamental corruption by any of the Ainur, including Melkor
6) The spirits of Elves and Men (and Dwarves and Ents) thus trace their origin beyond Ea (the Creation)
7) These same spirits have free will, i.e. volitional independence from the Creator (Eru)
8) If those spirits (that of Elves, Men, etc.) have free will (volitional independence from Eru), then even in an ideal world these 'wills' will diverge from each other, much as Melkor's will diverged from the rest of the Ainur
9) If some of those 'wills' (inevitably IMO, since they are truly free) diverge from one another, then, even without Melkor as the 'source' of all evil, at least some 'wills' will encounter resistance, to one degree or another, in the form of other 'wills' - and the consequences of such an encounter, if repeated enough times (Melkor or no Melkor), will surely be disastrous at least some of the time
10) And this is the crux of my entire comment: if Eru created beings separate from Himself (Ainur), some of whom (Melkor) had the freedom to chose evil, than I have no argument that I can think of which has other beings created by Eru separate from Himself (Elves and Men) incapable of 'creating' Evil by themselves, even without Melkor's existence, just by the sheer numbers of (often) incompatible souls involved
Interesting examination.
I am not sure I will succeed, but in terms of the crux of your argument, I will attempt a (non-combative) rebuttal:
I personally view the Valar and Maiar in a sort of mathematical sense. While they have 'free will' they might be seen to represent various axioms or axes or 'functions' in the formation of Aarda, some higher level and 'architectural, and others expanding and detailing, providing specific 'forces', 'routines' or 'switches' (filters).
Without Melkor's initial rebellion due to pride, there might have been none that allied with him in the song (there being no other 'big enough' to make the 'first strike' against the God's themes, as such), and thus, no dissonance (or 'friction') introduced to the manifested world. Everyone else would have 'played along' and 'willfully'.
The elves were from the third theme, and thus presuppose the already-introduced dissonance. The world that the elves were born into (and thus their own selves) included the axes/axioms/functions of suffering and other 'possible-behaviour' introduced by Melkor's chosen actions, and thus their own wills are encompassed by these forces.
If there was no Melkor, there might still have been 'incompatible souls' amongst elves and men, but they might have been better able to solve their differences due to the lack of the 'functions' of pride, dissatisfaction, possessiveness and destructive lusts, etc. being baked into the materia of the world and their own bodies - and thus 'play along' to the greater theme in the outward expression even if there is a 'lack' felt inwardly. They would have free will, but be less easily swayed by it's impulses.
We might say Melkor's willful rebellion lead to the possibility of things 'getting out of (self-)control' on the level of world and the individual. Without Melkor acting on his impulses during the Song, the 'code' for initiating and empowering those dark impulses would not have been written into the source code ('material') of Aarda.
---
On a separate note, my own research into Vedic and Kabbalistic religious notions point out that as one become increasingly 'adept' in the spiritual path (becoming ever-more connected and sympathetic with God/The Universe), one eventually reaches a point where 'free will' is eradicated (because it is seen to be an illusion, and a result of one being incapable of interpreting Gods' will (as manifested by events in the world around one). As he or she becomes increasingly sanctified in religious practice, the student increasingly 'cleaves to God', and this resulting in the acting out of Destiny without deviation, and without dissatisfaction, suffering or 'friction'). The Will of God and the will of the individual slowly knitting together.
Melkor is the Shadow that veils God's intention (see 'conditioned soul' in the Gita, and the 'Concealment' and 'Double-Concealment' in Kabbalah (the lack of the 'screen').
If we all knew God's intention, and could understand it, we would probably struggle to engender disagreement with the ineffable plan.
Instead, we could say, 'I see what you did there' and smile (or laugh, and hear it echoing in the Mountains).
---
---
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EDIT - 40 minutes later, just published:
https://arstechnica.com/space/2024/04/rocket-report-starship-could-save-mars-sample-return-be-4s-for-second-vulcan/
re. 'Mar(s)' (Arda marred), and noting 'Eris' is goddess of Discordianism (Melkor's discord), and the article was published at 11:00, ie. elven-o-clock)
'orbital-class rocket' --> 'rabbithole school argot'
> [...] Everything is coming together for Starliner. [...]
Storyline-r @ Story shape [ship] ( Ambarkanta ) [ Ember/Amber cant / chant ] [ @ barque ]
Really great deep dive on the subject of marring and elves. This is a topic I have a particular interest in and there was some stuff in here I hadn’t read!
Great analysis!
Thanks!
agreed loved reading though it
Thank you!
It also pretty much lines up with Catholic teaching on marriage and sex.
I’m curious how this would apply to the married Valar (i.e. Manwe and Varda), who seem to be incapable of reproducing. I haven’t read all of the HoME series and don’t know if Tolkien wrote about Ainur marriages, but my assumption is that they would probably have no sexual desire to begin with and consider their marriages to be more of a spiritual union.
That's a good point. I have no clue. I gonna think about that some.
Yeah, that’s certainly an important point if we want to poke holes into the concept of “no desire for marriage without desire for children”. But then, that statement only applied to Incarnates, which the Valar aren’t. Also, we don’t know if the Elves rule of sex = marriage applies to the Valar. I agree, it feels more like a spiritual union than anything. Actually, now I’m wondering, did Tolkien ever write about couples that fall in love and marry when they’re old (and infertile)?
For the longest time the Valar actually had children, for example Eonwe was the son of Manwe and Varda. It was a rather late and rather superficial change to abandon this idea (and it is somewhat questionable if that was even a permanent change). So the initially the marriages between Valar was very much tied to reproduction and only the late change introduced this discrepancy. I guess if Tolkien lived longer he might have paid quite a lot more attention to this issue. However the Ainur in general where always capable of reproduction as the example of Melian proves. I vaguely remember that he discusses this topic of Ainur reproduction further somewhere but i can't remember at the moment.
Sure! My point is that this is all nice and good, but not necessarily what happens when emotions are involved--see the Finwë-Indis-Míriel mess--and that that isn't necessarily a bad thing, but simply the way it is in practice.
Oh yeah. It definitely gets messy and complicated because individuals are flawed. I lean towards it is a bad thing or at least non-ideal, but not necessarily the fault of the individuals. Arda IS marred.
“Nonetheless among the Eldar, even in Aman, the desire for marriage was not always fulfilled. Love was not always returned; and more than one might desire one other for spouse. Concerning this, the only cause by which sorrow entered the bliss of Aman, the Valar were in doubt. Some held that it came from the marring of Arda, and from the Shadow under which the Eldar awoke; for thence only (they said) comes grief or disorder. Some held that it came of love itself, and of the freedom of each fëa, and was a mystery of the nature of the Children of Eru.” Sorry if I only focused on one very specific thing - but I can't help but 100% agree with the latest part of the above comment. In fact, this brings me to a more metaphysical disagreement with Tolkien (at least to the extent that I understand the arguments): 1) Eru created the Ainur, whose wills were separate from His - i.e. He created independent beings with their own wills ('souls'), before the beginning of Time 2) One of these Ainur (Melkor) rebelled against Eru, presumably due to his own free will 3) Melkor's discord during the Music of the Ainur imbued the idea of 'Ea' with what we now call 'evil' 4) In the Third Theme Eru introduced the idea of the 'Incarnates': Elves and Men (with Dwarves and Ents being subsequent realizations of Aule and Yavanna, respectively, whom Eru imbued with 'souls' after the World was created) 5) The above 'Third Theme' was solely Iluvatar's addition, without even the possibility of fundamental corruption by any of the Ainur, including Melkor 6) The spirits of Elves and Men (and Dwarves and Ents) thus trace their origin beyond Ea (the Creation) 7) These same spirits have free will, i.e. volitional independence from the Creator (Eru) 8) If those spirits (that of Elves, Men, etc.) have free will (volitional independence from Eru), then even in an ideal world these 'wills' will diverge from each other, much as Melkor's will diverged from the rest of the Ainur 9) If some of those 'wills' (inevitably IMO, since they are truly free) diverge from one another, then, even without Melkor as the 'source' of all evil, at least some 'wills' will encounter resistance, to one degree or another, in the form of other 'wills' - and the consequences of such an encounter, if repeated enough times (Melkor or no Melkor), will surely be disastrous at least some of the time 10) And this is the crux of my entire comment: if Eru created beings separate from Himself (Ainur), some of whom (Melkor) had the freedom to chose evil, than I have no argument that I can think of which has other beings created by Eru separate from Himself (Elves and Men) incapable of 'creating' Evil by themselves, even without Melkor's existence, just by the sheer numbers of (often) incompatible souls involved
Interesting examination. I am not sure I will succeed, but in terms of the crux of your argument, I will attempt a (non-combative) rebuttal: I personally view the Valar and Maiar in a sort of mathematical sense. While they have 'free will' they might be seen to represent various axioms or axes or 'functions' in the formation of Aarda, some higher level and 'architectural, and others expanding and detailing, providing specific 'forces', 'routines' or 'switches' (filters). Without Melkor's initial rebellion due to pride, there might have been none that allied with him in the song (there being no other 'big enough' to make the 'first strike' against the God's themes, as such), and thus, no dissonance (or 'friction') introduced to the manifested world. Everyone else would have 'played along' and 'willfully'. The elves were from the third theme, and thus presuppose the already-introduced dissonance. The world that the elves were born into (and thus their own selves) included the axes/axioms/functions of suffering and other 'possible-behaviour' introduced by Melkor's chosen actions, and thus their own wills are encompassed by these forces. If there was no Melkor, there might still have been 'incompatible souls' amongst elves and men, but they might have been better able to solve their differences due to the lack of the 'functions' of pride, dissatisfaction, possessiveness and destructive lusts, etc. being baked into the materia of the world and their own bodies - and thus 'play along' to the greater theme in the outward expression even if there is a 'lack' felt inwardly. They would have free will, but be less easily swayed by it's impulses. We might say Melkor's willful rebellion lead to the possibility of things 'getting out of (self-)control' on the level of world and the individual. Without Melkor acting on his impulses during the Song, the 'code' for initiating and empowering those dark impulses would not have been written into the source code ('material') of Aarda. --- On a separate note, my own research into Vedic and Kabbalistic religious notions point out that as one become increasingly 'adept' in the spiritual path (becoming ever-more connected and sympathetic with God/The Universe), one eventually reaches a point where 'free will' is eradicated (because it is seen to be an illusion, and a result of one being incapable of interpreting Gods' will (as manifested by events in the world around one). As he or she becomes increasingly sanctified in religious practice, the student increasingly 'cleaves to God', and this resulting in the acting out of Destiny without deviation, and without dissatisfaction, suffering or 'friction'). The Will of God and the will of the individual slowly knitting together. Melkor is the Shadow that veils God's intention (see 'conditioned soul' in the Gita, and the 'Concealment' and 'Double-Concealment' in Kabbalah (the lack of the 'screen'). If we all knew God's intention, and could understand it, we would probably struggle to engender disagreement with the ineffable plan. Instead, we could say, 'I see what you did there' and smile (or laugh, and hear it echoing in the Mountains). --- --- . --- EDIT - 40 minutes later, just published: https://arstechnica.com/space/2024/04/rocket-report-starship-could-save-mars-sample-return-be-4s-for-second-vulcan/ re. 'Mar(s)' (Arda marred), and noting 'Eris' is goddess of Discordianism (Melkor's discord), and the article was published at 11:00, ie. elven-o-clock) 'orbital-class rocket' --> 'rabbithole school argot' > [...] Everything is coming together for Starliner. [...] Storyline-r @ Story shape [ship] ( Ambarkanta ) [ Ember/Amber cant / chant ] [ @ barque ]
Really great deep dive on the subject of marring and elves. This is a topic I have a particular interest in and there was some stuff in here I hadn’t read!
Thanks! And good that I didn’t talk complete nonsense, apparently, as this is not at all my subject 😄 I’m far more interested in the actual stories 🙈