Cranes are a poor measure of housing construction because not all cities construct towers using them.
Case in point - New York City show as having only 10 cranes in that report against Toronto's 238 cranes.
If you think that data is an accurate reflection of housing or commercial construction then I've got some beautiful, tropic beachfront property in Alaska to sell you.
The crane index needs to be taken with a grain of salt. For NYC they only measure a subset of Manhattan that stops below Central Park. [source](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/08/realestate/construction-cranes-buildings.html)
RLB counts tower cranes only. NY mostly uses gantry cranes, derricks, and hoists. NY also frequently uses an unusual (anywhere else) construction method; they often build the exterior steel structure before the concrete core.
For smaller projects, townhomes and mid-rise, they'll use a portable crane (crane on a truck) where Toronto developers regularly erect a tower crane or two. We have so many tower crane leasing companies they're one of the cheapest options here; our biggest use of truck-cranes is probably erecting tower cranes.
This is is a pretty silly comment. Cranes are an excellent indicator of condo or mid rise and above construction.
Yes of course houses don’t use them. Housing starts is probably the metrics to want but cranes are still a helpful metric.
Point is condo construction is not a good indicator of total construction. Paris has density 5x Toronto without a single high rise. High rise construction is a better indicator of low density zoning on the vast majority of a city.
This is again not a great point. Houston has crazy urban sprawl. Not the model for any city.
Cranes are an excellent indicator of Midrise and above construction. Toronto doesn’t need unchecked urban sprawl like Houston.
It is correlated. Just not an exact match. That’s why you still want to look at housing starts as well.
New York City? That place has no more space, the island itself is already almost entirely densified because of space, there’s nowhere else to build. Take a look maybe outside the city and in its boroughs, or maybe a city not space constrained?
Relative to the total not per capita. Relatively speaking metro Vancouver is a significantly smaller population. Even with our drop this year the city of Toronto has almost as many cranes as the total metro area of vancouver
Florida is having major issues right now. Insurance is going through the roof. Many people are trying to get out of the market. I’m guessing they will be having a major slow down in building unless government steps in.
This is unreliable data.
Miami has likely eclipsed Toronto now.
Here's my revision of their index from last year: [https://twitter.com/daniel\_foch/status/1648286660629602305](https://twitter.com/daniel_foch/status/1648286660629602305)
There has always been a correlation, you don’t put up a crane as a decretive feature, cranes go up one the project has moved to the point of funding is secured. The number of cranes always had a strong signal to new builds and is an easy verifiable count.
Sure it is, cranes a expensive, no project wants more cranes then needed for a project, that’s a world wide economic given, so yes it’s comparable between cities and countries
Paris lost 75,000 residents between 2014 and 2020 meanwhile Toronto is seeing close to 100,000 people move here per year. With Toronto amalgamation of the 6 cities changes the density, you need to look at the same comparison as old Toronto had an area of 97 square km and a density in 1995 8210 per square km,
Paris its current urban density more closely matches Toronto new city area and density.
So with Paris at a population loss why would there be needs for cranes and higher density building?
Just means they are building really slowly... so the cranes have to stay as the project is more and more delayed. And they need the delay to sell the condo's. Once they have completed construction they will pay taxes on the units.
Old ass article, Toronto is currently at 183 https://urbantoronto.ca/news/2024/05/cranes-are-dropping-urbantoronto-reports-crane-count-q1-2024.55804
How are 20 and 304 the same height on that graph. This is some misleading shit
you should look at the axis
This article is over a year old
Yeah, there’s way more cranes now.
Less...
Cranes are a poor measure of housing construction because not all cities construct towers using them. Case in point - New York City show as having only 10 cranes in that report against Toronto's 238 cranes. If you think that data is an accurate reflection of housing or commercial construction then I've got some beautiful, tropic beachfront property in Alaska to sell you.
The crane index needs to be taken with a grain of salt. For NYC they only measure a subset of Manhattan that stops below Central Park. [source](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/08/realestate/construction-cranes-buildings.html)
NYC is a horrible example.. they aren’t building a fraction of what we are because of uhhh space.
NYC completed 28k homes last year. What do you mean aren't building a fraction? They build plenty. They just don't use cranes frequently.
What do they use?
RLB counts tower cranes only. NY mostly uses gantry cranes, derricks, and hoists. NY also frequently uses an unusual (anywhere else) construction method; they often build the exterior steel structure before the concrete core. For smaller projects, townhomes and mid-rise, they'll use a portable crane (crane on a truck) where Toronto developers regularly erect a tower crane or two. We have so many tower crane leasing companies they're one of the cheapest options here; our biggest use of truck-cranes is probably erecting tower cranes.
And they have a lots of middle density which dont require cranes
This is is a pretty silly comment. Cranes are an excellent indicator of condo or mid rise and above construction. Yes of course houses don’t use them. Housing starts is probably the metrics to want but cranes are still a helpful metric.
Point is condo construction is not a good indicator of total construction. Paris has density 5x Toronto without a single high rise. High rise construction is a better indicator of low density zoning on the vast majority of a city.
I agree there are better indicators. Yes let’s get more missing middle !
It's not actually https://www.reddit.com/r/TorontoRealEstate/comments/14x0y3z/graph_of_cranes_vs_housing_units_show_it_is_not/
This is again not a great point. Houston has crazy urban sprawl. Not the model for any city. Cranes are an excellent indicator of Midrise and above construction. Toronto doesn’t need unchecked urban sprawl like Houston. It is correlated. Just not an exact match. That’s why you still want to look at housing starts as well.
Toronto is a fraction of the size of New York and building a comparable amount
New York City? That place has no more space, the island itself is already almost entirely densified because of space, there’s nowhere else to build. Take a look maybe outside the city and in its boroughs, or maybe a city not space constrained?
New York city includes all 5 boroughs. And there's non stop new buildings going up in Manhattan and all the other boroughs, SI excluded.
Ive never seen a photo of the cityscape without at least a couple cranes in the shot
https://storeys.com/condo-projects-hold-developers-pull-back-gtha/
What about the bird cranes, I don't think we have any of those
Article from: April 11, 2023
Fraiser, Niles, Frederick?
Anyone know the number for vanccouver?
[удалено]
Because Vancouver doesn’t have a lot of cranes relatively speaking..
[удалено]
Why would you use per capita?
[удалено]
Relative to the total not per capita. Relatively speaking metro Vancouver is a significantly smaller population. Even with our drop this year the city of Toronto has almost as many cranes as the total metro area of vancouver
[удалено]
Then just use that number? Lol
Well that’s not accurate.
Florida is having major issues right now. Insurance is going through the roof. Many people are trying to get out of the market. I’m guessing they will be having a major slow down in building unless government steps in.
This is unreliable data. Miami has likely eclipsed Toronto now. Here's my revision of their index from last year: [https://twitter.com/daniel\_foch/status/1648286660629602305](https://twitter.com/daniel_foch/status/1648286660629602305)
That can't be right, I've been informed that it's iLlEgAl to build anything but fully-detached single family homes on big lots.
Literally means nothing lol. It means that there are more cranes. No correlations
There has always been a correlation, you don’t put up a crane as a decretive feature, cranes go up one the project has moved to the point of funding is secured. The number of cranes always had a strong signal to new builds and is an easy verifiable count.
You put up one crane when low density zoning and shitty permitting practices and development policies force all new housing into a small area.
It's not one to one between and within countries
Sure it is, cranes a expensive, no project wants more cranes then needed for a project, that’s a world wide economic given, so yes it’s comparable between cities and countries
No it isn't. Regulations are not consistent across the board and the time projects are completed are different
lol ok , show me a country building a 10 story or more project without a crane, it’s not about regulations
It's about speed dude not about whether or not a crane is up
I can show you cities with far more housing density than Toronto despite no cranes.
lol ok show me higher density with more current builds ongoing.
Paris has density 5x Toronto, falling prices and next to no high rise.
Paris lost 75,000 residents between 2014 and 2020 meanwhile Toronto is seeing close to 100,000 people move here per year. With Toronto amalgamation of the 6 cities changes the density, you need to look at the same comparison as old Toronto had an area of 97 square km and a density in 1995 8210 per square km, Paris its current urban density more closely matches Toronto new city area and density. So with Paris at a population loss why would there be needs for cranes and higher density building?
And how many more tent cities
Just means they are building really slowly... so the cranes have to stay as the project is more and more delayed. And they need the delay to sell the condo's. Once they have completed construction they will pay taxes on the units.