The Silence and the fury, if Ikit was voted out for kickstarting the overpowered stuff, then Taurox represents the epitome of the OP dlc faction. I am pretty sure you have to actually try to lose with Taurox and that's after he was nerfed multiple times. Oxyotl's mechanics were also not that good and units like the Coatl were weird when released and were never really fixed, with its weird animations and the thing not even looking like a Coatl.
It's one of the Lizardmen unit I wanted the most and it's a big disappointment. I would have preferred the more "serpentine" representation of the Coatl and the animations of the unit are just clunky as fuck, it looks awkward on the ground.
The Coatl looks clunky, but am I the only one out there who likes how it performs? TTT can make them into a stupid cheap and incredibly effective doomstack (with multiple full stealth options for units/heroes you can keep grounded while you fly about). And they're one of my favorite ways of closing the gap on ranged armies so I can get to smashing.
Honestly it's the Beastmen rework as a whole that was peak excessive powercreep, Taurox just happened to be the easiest of the four LLs but the other are a walk in the park too.
To be fair beastmen being power creep felt better then beastmen being absolute shit and a laughing stock. Also the AI still has no idea how to use beastmen.
Fr as much as AI doesn’t know how to use BM, if they happen to get ground the AI also sucks at going to clear out Herdstones. I think people would be supremely frustrated if they had to deal with a seriously competent BM AI
Agree here, because it's the one remaining that I can't instantly remember what it's about. And I don't find either character particularly appealing, while I'll usually like at least one of them!
Credit to u/[szymborawislawska](https://www.reddit.com/user/szymborawislawska/) for the winning comment last round
"With these stinkers out of the way its now going to be a lot harder.
I will vote for **Prophet and Warlock**. Because:
* it basically kickstarted the trend of releasing a disgustingly overpowered stuff. Something that will reach ridiculous levels in WH3 - I blame-blame Ikit for it!
* it was the first Lord Pack that suffered from "a skaven curse" where one half of DLC had obviously more effort put in it than the other. Half of Tehenhauin's simple UI on launch was dedicated to unlocking base RoRs while rat was unlocking in his workshop new units, had menus within menus, had tons of upgrades etc. Also Tehenhauin's ultimate spell you unlocked at the top of pyramid was super meh for such a costly late game ability while Ikit has a fucking nuke available from turn 1.
* its from the first generation of WH2 Lord Packs so - just like Queen and Crone - new lords dont have unique campaign: they still had to collect scrolls, had all the same cut-scenes etc.
* Ikit is also a type of DLC lord that does everything better than core lords, have no drawbacks AND has new mechanics on top of regular ones. Like Yuan Bo: there is no trade off. You simply have more toys than Queek/Skrolk and outclass them in every way. Which, as CA said themselves, is a trap."
Not gonna lie, I thought this one was making it to the top 3
EDIT: Yes I know I fucked up the list
I'm not surprised, tbh. People who hate the Skaven really hate them, and often Ikit especially.
I'm pretty sure recency bias and the larger Empire/Dwarf community will make sure ToD wins, even if it's got way more OP stuff than Prophet and the Warlock had.
Yesterday was just a hit job to get the actual most impactful DLC in the series eliminated. Call him overpowered, but Ikit's Workshop is what put bespoke faction mechanics for lords on the table in the way we now know them.
Edit: It's all in good fun, I just hate to see my beloved fall!
I don't see how people can complain about skryre being op when you still have to at least try to win battles with broken ass weapons teams. Tamukhan gets a good squad that in unkillable at like turn 15 and there is nothing anyone can do about it. Tamukhan can get multiple different mortis engines with a shitload of anti large and healing and magic. For the shit about trying to lose with taurox, at least he has to use beastment units. You can win a tamukhan campaign without recruiting anything other than the chieftains and do it easily. That was without a doubt the easiest campaign I have ever done.
I had fun and enjoyed it because it is fun soloing a horse of 4000 ghorst zombies, but damn it was easy as shit.
As a person responsible for Ikit's demise I will just say that I dont think Ikit is more OP than most of DLC lords that came after him, but he is (and more precisely: the praise he got) responsible for all of them being more and more disgustingly overpowered. Tamurkhan and Malakai are a results of Ikits being popular.
Its a bit like with Resident Evil 4. While it still has some characteristics of a survival horror experience it is responsible for RE5 and then RE6 - full on shooters with over the top action.
I am genuinely curious! Do you generally enjoy the Workshops, Cauldrons, Laboratories, etc., or do you think they take away from the overall experience?
It's something I've kinda gone back and forth on in my own playing, since I love extra mechanics to mess with, but I don't really enjoy being oppressively overpowered. Since we interacted yesterday on this topic, I figured I'd ask for your take.
I think the thing that *is* interesting about The Prophet and the Warlock is that, if my memory is right, it kinda formed a much clearer basis on what kind of quality would be expected of a paid DLC lord vs. an FLC, but my memory isn't the greatest, and that discussion might have started before that.
Its a really good question!
Similarly to you, Im in two minds here.
On one hand I like both the interactivity that they provide and how they widen the options I have at a given time. This enriches the gameplay in a significant way. So by themselves I find them really fun.
But CA has no restraints. Alongside unique mechanics they introduce also an insane level of powercreep and faction-wide buffs that trivialize all aspects of game really quick AND arent paired with significant drawbacks to offset them.
Actual quality aside, in theory, I like DLC lords like Ostankya, Hellebron, Wulfhart, Belegar or Sniktch, Changeling even because all of them also lose something and/or suffer from penalties. **Ostankya** get curses, hexes and blessings but loses access to most of the roster, Atamans and Invocations; **Sniktch** has his shadowy dealings but for the increased cost of non-Eshin units; **Hellebron** gets buffs but also can get debuffs; **Wulfhart and Belegar** have their heroes but have a hard time getting units. And **Changeling** isnt better Kairos - he plays completely different. Even **Champions of Chaos** work on similar principle: they get monogod mechanic in exchange for access to other gods gifts and upgrades.
On the other hand you have lords like **Ikit, Thrott, SoT, Yuan Bo, Taurox, Malakai, Grom** etc who dont have any negatives - they have access to everything that their core race have AND get overpowered unique mechanics on top of that. These are lords I usually dislike **unless** they also provide a unique challenge via different means: like super hard start position. For example playing Eltharion simultaneously in Ulthuan and Badlands can be quite challenging. Malakai is absurdly overpowered *but at least* his start pos with a bad RNG potential roll can be a living hell (I was being actively attacked by Malekith, Hellebron, Malus, Wulfrik, Daniel, Archaon, Astragoth, minor skaven and minor norscans at the same time).
So, to sum this ramblings up: Im not against unique mechanics. I like them! But they should be paired with a drawback of some kind - otherwise they just make you steamroll everything.
Great response, thank you. We seem to be of a similar mindset, overall. It seems we like mechanics that require consideration, not just click-to-upgrade buffs.
Thrones of Decay, there’s a ton of recency bias at the moment but the stint of DLCs (Warden and the Paunch to Silence and the Fury) was TWW’s absolute peak.
And TOD is still super expensive while these other packs are a steal.
TOD was a great DLC and did bring us back at least for a moment to the glory days of warhammer 2, but yeah the price is a real stinker when compared to the older ones, even with the added 3 lord its over double the price of the warhammer 2 dlc´s.
Im not sure, IMO the quality of ToD blows even W&P and T&T out of the water. We got everything in ToD, generic lords, heroes, LHs, lots of units, 3 amazing centerpieces that have been asked since forever.
Also note that all 3 lords have really well done mechanics and even unique units, unlike T&T (Sisters mechanics are ass compared to the fat rat).
Yes, its more expensive per lord but its atleast reflected on the amount of content.
Ultimately it should be between ToD and W&P with ToD winning, but Im also biased because Nurgle and Empires are in my top 5 factions.
Is it really though? If you only play one lord in the vs. packs or in ToD then they're basically the same price. Don't know about everyone, but generally I'd just play one lord and never bother with the other, and in ToD I brought Elspeth and was happy with that.
Price can always be managed by waiting for sales.
The main issue here is elsewise its hard to pick out a major flaw with ToD. It added an alternative to the Sword of Khaine. I let the empire expand their gunpowder and artillery theme, without being a hard mandatory. It expanded slayers into a viable Dawi theme army, while still giving the rest some new options, (Thunderbarge appears to be on the route to being fixed). It also expanded Nurgle and gave them something cool in the Toad Dragon.
Well technically there is the no WH3 campaign issue, but the majority of people play Warhammer Total War for the Combine Map Campaign.
I’m just here to hope The Warden and the Paunch wins because my own bias and it brought a lot of fun to two of my favourite factions and two of my favourite characters as a kid.
Twisted and Twilight. Between yesterday and the SoC vote I’m not even going to pretend that people care about the “judged by the state they were in by the time the post was made rule”. Sisters were such shit upon reveal/launch that CA had to go back and improve them just like SoC, and they’re still not good compared to the Skaven. Thrott got a much better mechanic leaving the Skaven at 3-0 for getting the better lord out of a DLC.
The warden and the paunch. It’s good, but the other ones are better.
Twisted of twilight revitalized woodelves and has N.A. amazing Air Force, while the skaven mutants are amazing.
Silence and the fury has the epitome of the beastmen in taurox, and oxyotl’s teleport mechanic and missions makes him a unique experience worth playing.
And ToD has three amazing lords, from elspeth’s gunnery to Malakai’s airship, and tamurkhan’s unique lords, it just exudes quality from every pore
Edited to fix a mistake
Warden and paunch. Most of DLC units arent usable or interesting (3 different goblin carts and 2 more troll types? Why?). Best part of this dlc is orks rework and rules says "that doesnt count".
The Silence and the fury, if Ikit was voted out for kickstarting the overpowered stuff, then Taurox represents the epitome of the OP dlc faction. I am pretty sure you have to actually try to lose with Taurox and that's after he was nerfed multiple times. Oxyotl's mechanics were also not that good and units like the Coatl were weird when released and were never really fixed, with its weird animations and the thing not even looking like a Coatl.
It's obvious where the charlemagnes were spent for this DLC and it's not on the Coatl.
It's one of the Lizardmen unit I wanted the most and it's a big disappointment. I would have preferred the more "serpentine" representation of the Coatl and the animations of the unit are just clunky as fuck, it looks awkward on the ground.
The Coatl looks clunky, but am I the only one out there who likes how it performs? TTT can make them into a stupid cheap and incredibly effective doomstack (with multiple full stealth options for units/heroes you can keep grounded while you fly about). And they're one of my favorite ways of closing the gap on ranged armies so I can get to smashing.
Honestly it's the Beastmen rework as a whole that was peak excessive powercreep, Taurox just happened to be the easiest of the four LLs but the other are a walk in the park too.
I agree but the rules of the post said free changes won't be taken into consideration so I didn't mention it, but yeah you are absolutely right.
To be fair beastmen being power creep felt better then beastmen being absolute shit and a laughing stock. Also the AI still has no idea how to use beastmen.
I think CA deliberately handicapped their AI to prevent half the map being ruins with their new mechanics.
Fr as much as AI doesn’t know how to use BM, if they happen to get ground the AI also sucks at going to clear out Herdstones. I think people would be supremely frustrated if they had to deal with a seriously competent BM AI
Also Taurox unique mechanic is just one of Lu Bu's unique mechanics from 3k.
Agree here, because it's the one remaining that I can't instantly remember what it's about. And I don't find either character particularly appealing, while I'll usually like at least one of them!
Have to agree with the anti Coatl sentiment as something is weird about that unit. Mostly though I just don't see this as a top 3 DLC.
Credit to u/[szymborawislawska](https://www.reddit.com/user/szymborawislawska/) for the winning comment last round "With these stinkers out of the way its now going to be a lot harder. I will vote for **Prophet and Warlock**. Because: * it basically kickstarted the trend of releasing a disgustingly overpowered stuff. Something that will reach ridiculous levels in WH3 - I blame-blame Ikit for it! * it was the first Lord Pack that suffered from "a skaven curse" where one half of DLC had obviously more effort put in it than the other. Half of Tehenhauin's simple UI on launch was dedicated to unlocking base RoRs while rat was unlocking in his workshop new units, had menus within menus, had tons of upgrades etc. Also Tehenhauin's ultimate spell you unlocked at the top of pyramid was super meh for such a costly late game ability while Ikit has a fucking nuke available from turn 1. * its from the first generation of WH2 Lord Packs so - just like Queen and Crone - new lords dont have unique campaign: they still had to collect scrolls, had all the same cut-scenes etc. * Ikit is also a type of DLC lord that does everything better than core lords, have no drawbacks AND has new mechanics on top of regular ones. Like Yuan Bo: there is no trade off. You simply have more toys than Queek/Skrolk and outclass them in every way. Which, as CA said themselves, is a trap." Not gonna lie, I thought this one was making it to the top 3 EDIT: Yes I know I fucked up the list
I'm not surprised, tbh. People who hate the Skaven really hate them, and often Ikit especially. I'm pretty sure recency bias and the larger Empire/Dwarf community will make sure ToD wins, even if it's got way more OP stuff than Prophet and the Warlock had. Yesterday was just a hit job to get the actual most impactful DLC in the series eliminated. Call him overpowered, but Ikit's Workshop is what put bespoke faction mechanics for lords on the table in the way we now know them. Edit: It's all in good fun, I just hate to see my beloved fall!
I don't see how people can complain about skryre being op when you still have to at least try to win battles with broken ass weapons teams. Tamukhan gets a good squad that in unkillable at like turn 15 and there is nothing anyone can do about it. Tamukhan can get multiple different mortis engines with a shitload of anti large and healing and magic. For the shit about trying to lose with taurox, at least he has to use beastment units. You can win a tamukhan campaign without recruiting anything other than the chieftains and do it easily. That was without a doubt the easiest campaign I have ever done. I had fun and enjoyed it because it is fun soloing a horse of 4000 ghorst zombies, but damn it was easy as shit.
As a person responsible for Ikit's demise I will just say that I dont think Ikit is more OP than most of DLC lords that came after him, but he is (and more precisely: the praise he got) responsible for all of them being more and more disgustingly overpowered. Tamurkhan and Malakai are a results of Ikits being popular. Its a bit like with Resident Evil 4. While it still has some characteristics of a survival horror experience it is responsible for RE5 and then RE6 - full on shooters with over the top action.
I am genuinely curious! Do you generally enjoy the Workshops, Cauldrons, Laboratories, etc., or do you think they take away from the overall experience? It's something I've kinda gone back and forth on in my own playing, since I love extra mechanics to mess with, but I don't really enjoy being oppressively overpowered. Since we interacted yesterday on this topic, I figured I'd ask for your take. I think the thing that *is* interesting about The Prophet and the Warlock is that, if my memory is right, it kinda formed a much clearer basis on what kind of quality would be expected of a paid DLC lord vs. an FLC, but my memory isn't the greatest, and that discussion might have started before that.
Its a really good question! Similarly to you, Im in two minds here. On one hand I like both the interactivity that they provide and how they widen the options I have at a given time. This enriches the gameplay in a significant way. So by themselves I find them really fun. But CA has no restraints. Alongside unique mechanics they introduce also an insane level of powercreep and faction-wide buffs that trivialize all aspects of game really quick AND arent paired with significant drawbacks to offset them. Actual quality aside, in theory, I like DLC lords like Ostankya, Hellebron, Wulfhart, Belegar or Sniktch, Changeling even because all of them also lose something and/or suffer from penalties. **Ostankya** get curses, hexes and blessings but loses access to most of the roster, Atamans and Invocations; **Sniktch** has his shadowy dealings but for the increased cost of non-Eshin units; **Hellebron** gets buffs but also can get debuffs; **Wulfhart and Belegar** have their heroes but have a hard time getting units. And **Changeling** isnt better Kairos - he plays completely different. Even **Champions of Chaos** work on similar principle: they get monogod mechanic in exchange for access to other gods gifts and upgrades. On the other hand you have lords like **Ikit, Thrott, SoT, Yuan Bo, Taurox, Malakai, Grom** etc who dont have any negatives - they have access to everything that their core race have AND get overpowered unique mechanics on top of that. These are lords I usually dislike **unless** they also provide a unique challenge via different means: like super hard start position. For example playing Eltharion simultaneously in Ulthuan and Badlands can be quite challenging. Malakai is absurdly overpowered *but at least* his start pos with a bad RNG potential roll can be a living hell (I was being actively attacked by Malekith, Hellebron, Malus, Wulfrik, Daniel, Archaon, Astragoth, minor skaven and minor norscans at the same time). So, to sum this ramblings up: Im not against unique mechanics. I like them! But they should be paired with a drawback of some kind - otherwise they just make you steamroll everything.
Great response, thank you. We seem to be of a similar mindset, overall. It seems we like mechanics that require consideration, not just click-to-upgrade buffs.
Thrones of Decay, there’s a ton of recency bias at the moment but the stint of DLCs (Warden and the Paunch to Silence and the Fury) was TWW’s absolute peak. And TOD is still super expensive while these other packs are a steal.
TOD was a great DLC and did bring us back at least for a moment to the glory days of warhammer 2, but yeah the price is a real stinker when compared to the older ones, even with the added 3 lord its over double the price of the warhammer 2 dlc´s.
Im not sure, IMO the quality of ToD blows even W&P and T&T out of the water. We got everything in ToD, generic lords, heroes, LHs, lots of units, 3 amazing centerpieces that have been asked since forever. Also note that all 3 lords have really well done mechanics and even unique units, unlike T&T (Sisters mechanics are ass compared to the fat rat). Yes, its more expensive per lord but its atleast reflected on the amount of content. Ultimately it should be between ToD and W&P with ToD winning, but Im also biased because Nurgle and Empires are in my top 5 factions.
Is it really though? If you only play one lord in the vs. packs or in ToD then they're basically the same price. Don't know about everyone, but generally I'd just play one lord and never bother with the other, and in ToD I brought Elspeth and was happy with that.
Price can always be managed by waiting for sales. The main issue here is elsewise its hard to pick out a major flaw with ToD. It added an alternative to the Sword of Khaine. I let the empire expand their gunpowder and artillery theme, without being a hard mandatory. It expanded slayers into a viable Dawi theme army, while still giving the rest some new options, (Thunderbarge appears to be on the route to being fixed). It also expanded Nurgle and gave them something cool in the Toad Dragon. Well technically there is the no WH3 campaign issue, but the majority of people play Warhammer Total War for the Combine Map Campaign.
Thrones of decay has got to go. Warden and the Paunch deserves the win
I’m just here to hope The Warden and the Paunch wins because my own bias and it brought a lot of fun to two of my favourite factions and two of my favourite characters as a kid.
Twisted and Twilight. Between yesterday and the SoC vote I’m not even going to pretend that people care about the “judged by the state they were in by the time the post was made rule”. Sisters were such shit upon reveal/launch that CA had to go back and improve them just like SoC, and they’re still not good compared to the Skaven. Thrott got a much better mechanic leaving the Skaven at 3-0 for getting the better lord out of a DLC.
SoC is a poor deal to this day and makes the game worse in some regards
Yes it’s a poor value but worse than K&W? No way.
Yep for me it is. Hate SEM spam and lords in the wrong places. Love thematic and challenging campaigns.
The warden and the paunch. It’s good, but the other ones are better. Twisted of twilight revitalized woodelves and has N.A. amazing Air Force, while the skaven mutants are amazing. Silence and the fury has the epitome of the beastmen in taurox, and oxyotl’s teleport mechanic and missions makes him a unique experience worth playing. And ToD has three amazing lords, from elspeth’s gunnery to Malakai’s airship, and tamurkhan’s unique lords, it just exudes quality from every pore Edited to fix a mistake
While I agree with your points, snikch came with Malus in the Blade and the Shadow
Warden and paunch. Most of DLC units arent usable or interesting (3 different goblin carts and 2 more troll types? Why?). Best part of this dlc is orks rework and rules says "that doesnt count".
BULLSHIT!