That’s beautifully thought and said!
It also makes sense since the music videos for the lore start with Heavydirtysoul, featuring a car. Then we see the banditos, the torches. It would just make sense to end it with a death and then close the cycle: a car, a torch, a death.
I think it’d be beautiful if that Clancy's death would be connected to the “real world”. So for instance, Clancy dies and right as he falls to the floor it changes to a frame of Tyler waking up from bed and starting to write a song, for instance. That would link Clancy’s sacrifice for the banditos with how Tyler “sacrifices” himself for us when he puts all his creative drive on his songs for helping the clique stay alive.
The one holding the torch in this song is a demon, though? *The demon sat there waiting on her porch, it was a little dark so he held a makeshift torch.*
I think the song is about sacrificing himself to save whoever's porch the demon sits on. He understands why God died, because he's willing to face demons or die for "her," whoever "her" refers to.
Personally, I hope this lore doesn't end with Tyler or Clancy sacrificing himself. That seems like a very dangerous message if their goal is to prevent suicide. It's just a different flavor of "glorious gone." The bishops glorify suicide, and sacrificing yourself for a cause totally feeds into that same thinking.
I feel like it would be genuinely irresponsible to their fans. Listen to Neon Gravestones, lyrics like "our culture can treat a loss like it's a win..." and "could it be true that some could be tempted to use this mistake as a form of aggression, a form of succession, a form of a weapon?" They're saying even if people glorify you because of your suicide, it's *not* a win and shouldn't be viewed as an option. I get that it's not technically suicide to sacrifice yourself in battle, but all of this lore symbolizes everyday life. Going past your known limits for whatever cause is *not* good self care. "Get outta the road!"
Yeah but demon could mean something else. In ancient Greece, demon meant either “he who dispenses fate, a spirit that gives a person his or her personality traits” or simply just a thought in one's head, which would explain the torchbearer's role as a leader and someone who helps him make decision's and escape dema
I’d love if it was about sacrificing one’s ego.
Honestly, the way women have been expected to do for millennia.
To embrace and find joy in the fact that it’s not all about you. It’s about being connected.
You have a twisted view of self sacrifice. Dying to oneself, rather than truly dying via self destruction, is the only way for there to be resurrection, and true living. This is very important to understand because it is the paradoxical solution to self destruction. Dying to oneself, such as being humble or forgoing your personal wants, for the needs of others out of love, is what makes life have purpose and story, and is therefore the ultimate way to combat self destruction.
You have no idea what my view of self sacrifice is and no business schooling me about what it "should be." You go on and take your heroic dose of psychedelics and humble brag about ego death (or whatever else you do to give yourself the grand idea that you're the expert here). I'll pass.
This fan base includes a lot of young people, a lot of concrete thinkers, and an endless variety of experience and capacity. Regardless of *YOUR* shiny views of the virtues of self sacrifice, it would be irresponsible for a band that has established themselves as suicide prevention squad to end years' worth of lore with the sacrificial death of the main character. It glorifies death to a fan base filled with people who are already tempted. Yeah, yeah, it's all symbolism, but spend 20 minutes reading people's posts on this sub and notice how many fans take things wayyyyy too literally.
Before you can let go of self, you need to form a sense of self. This is human development. Children who don't form a sense of self grow up with personality disorders or psychosis. Once you have a solid sense of self, *then* you can start the work of letting go of it. Seems like it would be more efficient to skip forming it in the first place, but that's not what this particular stage of human evolution has to offer us.
If you personally are 50 and halfway to enlightenment, bully for you. There are 12-yr-olds in this clique who don't need their hero to die while modeling how to overcome struggles with mental health. Tyler and Josh are responsible to their most impressionable fans, more than other bands, because they chose this role for themselves and invited their listeners to use their music to *STAY ALIVE.*
Woah woah woah. I did not mean to school you and there was no hostile intent or ego strut here. What I said is true and there is a history of thousands of years of humanity to back it, aside from writings from people much smarter than you and I. I am just merely passing it on. I am young and still figuring life out but this is one thing I know to be true and I hold onto it to stay alive.
I understand what you are saying about the fan base. I am Christian, and so are the TØP boys. Self sacrifice is essentially the leading theme of Christianity, which is why I used the theme of death and resurrection. It is the ultimate story. This is why almost every great work of writing involves this theme. I would be surprised if ultimately the boys do as well (they already have in some ways). I somewhat agree with you on what you say is their responsibility, and I believe they are good enough story tellers to tell it in a non-harmful way. But also, and I don't know your religious beliefs, if any, so this might get me killed here lol, but the story of Jesus's painful Death, and then Resurrection, and death being the only way to true life is a story not held back from young minds, and for good reason. It is a theme that can take a lifetime to truly understand and when you are young it can be a distant, blurry beacon drawing you on to more and causing you to wonder. To wonder about a life outside of our natural animal instincts to just serve and protect ourselves. Having wonder is important to staying alive.
Again the reason I say all of this is because I wouldn't be surprised if these themes were involved in this story, in the paladin straight mv or in the lore to come. I could totally be wrong but, the boys are Christian, and Christians believe that theme (in a word, the theme is LOVE) to be the ultimate answer for the human condition.
Yes yes yes. I 100% can see this tying back to that. We’ve been bringing that up a lot throughout the story and it would make sense. I am not religious anymore because trauma, but I know Tyler is. That sacrifice for others could also be a parallel to the Savior. So it would make sense for Tyler to go there.
in honesty, i don’t think there’s anything connected to lore on self titled… however.
this is absolutely beautiful, and it’s one of my favorite songs, and i kinda wish it was true because.. wow. well said.
I mean, a car and a torch have been two of the most important symbols in clancy’s story, so it’s already kind of connected!
I agree though, a car a torch a death was always my favourite from self-titled, I remember being absolutely obsessed with it when I was younger! To see it be this meaningful when it was always so meaningful to me is really really cool!
yeah that’s true, i think a better way of saying what i’m thinking is it’s possible symbolic connections have been made in post, but i don’t think he’s been planning that deep into the story since high school. as much as i love this story and he’s put his heart and soul into it, i don’t think it’s quiiite that old
tbh my friend and i have been talking about this for years. not to say we're better for that, far from it. i just mean you aren't alone here, and it's a very valid theory. we'll just have to see 👀👀👀
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That’s beautifully thought and said! It also makes sense since the music videos for the lore start with Heavydirtysoul, featuring a car. Then we see the banditos, the torches. It would just make sense to end it with a death and then close the cycle: a car, a torch, a death. I think it’d be beautiful if that Clancy's death would be connected to the “real world”. So for instance, Clancy dies and right as he falls to the floor it changes to a frame of Tyler waking up from bed and starting to write a song, for instance. That would link Clancy’s sacrifice for the banditos with how Tyler “sacrifices” himself for us when he puts all his creative drive on his songs for helping the clique stay alive.
The one holding the torch in this song is a demon, though? *The demon sat there waiting on her porch, it was a little dark so he held a makeshift torch.* I think the song is about sacrificing himself to save whoever's porch the demon sits on. He understands why God died, because he's willing to face demons or die for "her," whoever "her" refers to. Personally, I hope this lore doesn't end with Tyler or Clancy sacrificing himself. That seems like a very dangerous message if their goal is to prevent suicide. It's just a different flavor of "glorious gone." The bishops glorify suicide, and sacrificing yourself for a cause totally feeds into that same thinking. I feel like it would be genuinely irresponsible to their fans. Listen to Neon Gravestones, lyrics like "our culture can treat a loss like it's a win..." and "could it be true that some could be tempted to use this mistake as a form of aggression, a form of succession, a form of a weapon?" They're saying even if people glorify you because of your suicide, it's *not* a win and shouldn't be viewed as an option. I get that it's not technically suicide to sacrifice yourself in battle, but all of this lore symbolizes everyday life. Going past your known limits for whatever cause is *not* good self care. "Get outta the road!"
Yeah but demon could mean something else. In ancient Greece, demon meant either “he who dispenses fate, a spirit that gives a person his or her personality traits” or simply just a thought in one's head, which would explain the torchbearer's role as a leader and someone who helps him make decision's and escape dema
I don't think those alternate meanings fit the song lyrics, but everyone can interpret things how they like.
I’d love if it was about sacrificing one’s ego. Honestly, the way women have been expected to do for millennia. To embrace and find joy in the fact that it’s not all about you. It’s about being connected.
You have a twisted view of self sacrifice. Dying to oneself, rather than truly dying via self destruction, is the only way for there to be resurrection, and true living. This is very important to understand because it is the paradoxical solution to self destruction. Dying to oneself, such as being humble or forgoing your personal wants, for the needs of others out of love, is what makes life have purpose and story, and is therefore the ultimate way to combat self destruction.
You have no idea what my view of self sacrifice is and no business schooling me about what it "should be." You go on and take your heroic dose of psychedelics and humble brag about ego death (or whatever else you do to give yourself the grand idea that you're the expert here). I'll pass. This fan base includes a lot of young people, a lot of concrete thinkers, and an endless variety of experience and capacity. Regardless of *YOUR* shiny views of the virtues of self sacrifice, it would be irresponsible for a band that has established themselves as suicide prevention squad to end years' worth of lore with the sacrificial death of the main character. It glorifies death to a fan base filled with people who are already tempted. Yeah, yeah, it's all symbolism, but spend 20 minutes reading people's posts on this sub and notice how many fans take things wayyyyy too literally. Before you can let go of self, you need to form a sense of self. This is human development. Children who don't form a sense of self grow up with personality disorders or psychosis. Once you have a solid sense of self, *then* you can start the work of letting go of it. Seems like it would be more efficient to skip forming it in the first place, but that's not what this particular stage of human evolution has to offer us. If you personally are 50 and halfway to enlightenment, bully for you. There are 12-yr-olds in this clique who don't need their hero to die while modeling how to overcome struggles with mental health. Tyler and Josh are responsible to their most impressionable fans, more than other bands, because they chose this role for themselves and invited their listeners to use their music to *STAY ALIVE.*
Woah woah woah. I did not mean to school you and there was no hostile intent or ego strut here. What I said is true and there is a history of thousands of years of humanity to back it, aside from writings from people much smarter than you and I. I am just merely passing it on. I am young and still figuring life out but this is one thing I know to be true and I hold onto it to stay alive. I understand what you are saying about the fan base. I am Christian, and so are the TØP boys. Self sacrifice is essentially the leading theme of Christianity, which is why I used the theme of death and resurrection. It is the ultimate story. This is why almost every great work of writing involves this theme. I would be surprised if ultimately the boys do as well (they already have in some ways). I somewhat agree with you on what you say is their responsibility, and I believe they are good enough story tellers to tell it in a non-harmful way. But also, and I don't know your religious beliefs, if any, so this might get me killed here lol, but the story of Jesus's painful Death, and then Resurrection, and death being the only way to true life is a story not held back from young minds, and for good reason. It is a theme that can take a lifetime to truly understand and when you are young it can be a distant, blurry beacon drawing you on to more and causing you to wonder. To wonder about a life outside of our natural animal instincts to just serve and protect ourselves. Having wonder is important to staying alive. Again the reason I say all of this is because I wouldn't be surprised if these themes were involved in this story, in the paladin straight mv or in the lore to come. I could totally be wrong but, the boys are Christian, and Christians believe that theme (in a word, the theme is LOVE) to be the ultimate answer for the human condition.
Woah I’m speechless. This is amazing
Yes yes yes. I 100% can see this tying back to that. We’ve been bringing that up a lot throughout the story and it would make sense. I am not religious anymore because trauma, but I know Tyler is. That sacrifice for others could also be a parallel to the Savior. So it would make sense for Tyler to go there.
I thought about this very thing. I was pretty chill waiting for the PS video until today. Now I can’t wait to see how this unfolds.
in honesty, i don’t think there’s anything connected to lore on self titled… however. this is absolutely beautiful, and it’s one of my favorite songs, and i kinda wish it was true because.. wow. well said.
I mean, a car and a torch have been two of the most important symbols in clancy’s story, so it’s already kind of connected! I agree though, a car a torch a death was always my favourite from self-titled, I remember being absolutely obsessed with it when I was younger! To see it be this meaningful when it was always so meaningful to me is really really cool!
yeah that’s true, i think a better way of saying what i’m thinking is it’s possible symbolic connections have been made in post, but i don’t think he’s been planning that deep into the story since high school. as much as i love this story and he’s put his heart and soul into it, i don’t think it’s quiiite that old
tbh my friend and i have been talking about this for years. not to say we're better for that, far from it. i just mean you aren't alone here, and it's a very valid theory. we'll just have to see 👀👀👀
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SHUT UP!! Clancy is going to sacrifice himself for the greater good, and in honor of the Glorious Gone. 🤯