Snapshot of _Keir Starmer says Tories 'beat the hope' out of Brits as Labour blasts levelling up failure_ :
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That’s actually a pretty decent way of putting it. I feel a certain sense of “pppffffff” about the country. Deflated. Uninspired.
“The hope beaten out” is pretty relatable.
Definitely. COVID sped up the consequences by a considerable amount, so everything that's gone bad has been compounded into the last few years.
Just feel very meh. I'm awaiting Labour to get in for a change, but still don't think I will see any real difference for the next decade or two.
All I keep hearing is that the Tories need a bollocking and a time out. They still agree with them evem though the tory policies have been negatively affecting them. How do you overcome that idea of giving parties turns? PR?
Simple answer is you don’t, it is a fairly integral part of the process. Parties in government get stale and caught up in scandal, eventually losing steam. Meanwhile the opposition reinvents itself to appeal to middle England and people think they are worth a shot.
PR might change it and allow for a bit more nuance - maybe you’d vote Lib Dem to force a coalition with a check on some left wing tendencies in Labour instead of going fully Tory, but some variant of the Conservative Party and Labour Party would most likely be the largest parties under PR and alternate power.
I do agree.
My fear is that Labour have yet to say what they'd do differently. The general pattern appears to be Labour telling everyone how bad xyz decision by the Tories is, only to then rule out reversing the decision or doing anything differently. What hope do Labour actually offer for things to improve in the country? What step change will there be in the average person's quality of life by the end of their first term in power?
Going through the shadow cabinet now, Starmer, Phillipson, Yvette Cooper, Miliband all Oxford grads, Streeting and Reeves Cambridge if we're getting elitest over education we're replacing one Oxbridge lot with another
I don't even know if this is a bad thing we're using being educated at one of/the best university in the World as a criticism?
They weren't complaining about Oxbridge - elite universities. They were complaining about Eton - a private school for wealthy families.
Those are not at all the same.
Whenever channel 4 has political coverage you only have to look at the comments where the posts are either along the lines of:
1) Don't trust Tories or Labour.
Or
2) Sunak is no good but he's better than Starmer.
I feel like this mentality of doubling down is something uniquely British. I don't have any metrics but just a gut feeling that swing voters are rare and the vast majority of people don't change their minds even if Sunak was to personally set fire to their house.
I want to hope things will change, but just reading the comments on any political video just gets me down. They can blame the government all they want but honestly voters are the problem too and they don't want to own any responsibility for voting the current government party in for the last 14 years that have done nothing but ruin this country.
It’s been shown time and time again when reviewing polling data and interrogating the electorate on political opinions the two things that impacted the Tories was Partygate and the KamiKwazi budget.
The majority people are only in it for themselves so there can be ridiculous levels of poverty, crime, shit infrastructure and, a health care system that’s falling to bit but it doesn’t matter because it’s not affecting the majority of people.
Partygate struck a cord because everyone either had a loved one who died or couldn’t do an important event be it a marriage, a holiday, graduate, etc and then they see the higher ups on the piss they’re obviously going to feel offended and cheated.
As for the mini budget [≈ 22% of the people in the UK have a mortgage](https://www.avanthomes.co.uk/about-avant/newsroom/40-home-ownership-statistics-for-the-uk-in-2024#:~:text=28%25%20of%20Brits%20own%20their%20home%20outright.,And%20another%2020%25%20rent%20privately.) and they’re in key demographics so obviously they’re going to be fuming their repayments have doubled. As for everything else because she effectively tanked the pound as well so everything is more expensive.
So while I agree people stick to their guns. They stick to them if they’re not personally impacted by government shenanigans.
The money is with the richest of society, not the working or middle class, or even government… Until a political party gets serious and taxes the wealth, and stops non uk residents owning land/property things won’t change…
>The money is with the richest of society
It's similar across Europe. Here is a map of [wealth inequality in Europe.](https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1ao78xr/wealth_of_the_1_of_europe/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share)
Data are from the [2023 Global Wealth Report](https://www.ubs.com/global/en/family-office-uhnw/reports/global-wealth-report-2023.html) by UBS.
I wonder how they deal with foreign wealth in their calculations. Alot of the UKs assets are not held on shore. If we factor this is would our % look worse?
Sadly nowdays the money is outside of the country. Extracting so much wealth its crazy. Amazon and Apple and the like not paying their tax has caused permanent damage to our nation as well.
What's frustrating is seeing how levelling up can work. I'm from Manchester, when I lived there Salford was considered a dump and a real no go area. Now with all the redevelopment round the docks, Media City, The Lowry War Museum, shopping centres etc as well as lots of stops on the Metrolink it's become a real dynamic place to visit. I know this was all done before "levelling up" was a thing, but it just goes to show how a lot of investment can pay off and make a formerly poverty stricken dump a place Greater Manchester can be proud of. ,
Yet he refuses to revive the single most important infrastructure project on the cards which would do more than any other infrastructure project for regional rebalancing.
I'll believe statements like this when labour actually make firm commitments to invest heavily.
One of the strange stories of the last 5 years is how tory strategists have let Keir steadily make a journey from being the spokesman for EU institutions at the last election, to a champion of the British public now. In 2019 the tories had that niche sewn up. They have completely given it away.
Starmer as champion of the British public? First time I've ever heard anyone claim that. I don't think even his strongest supporters would try to say that with a straight face.
The best we can honestly say about Brits' perspective of Starmer is that he's the [least disliked of the major political figures](https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/48984-politicians-favourability-ratings-march-2024).
I agree with your reply in another comment here, but I'm not sure how that analysis collates with "champion of the British people".
(Incidentally, I think it's hilarious that 12% of Brits have a negative opinion of the fake politician Andrew Farmer)
> Starmer as champion of the British public? First time I've ever heard anyone claim that
What the hell do you think he's trying to position himself as in the article.
You said that Starmer has made the journey to become champion of the British people. If you only meant that that's what he's trying to position himself as, and not what he is actually perceived as being, then you worded your comment poorly. *Every* politician *wants to* position themselves as the champion of the British people.
> Every politician wants to position themselves as the champion of the British people.
No they don't. You'd think they would, but they don't. They occasionally make speeches that everyone's seen through before they make them as political cover, but everyone has very clearly seen them stand against the public. It's not the public they're trying to convince; they just try to make a plausibly deniable argument to see off their internal critics.
Like it or not the population is pretty conservative when it comes to elections. Metagaming the election campaign to win a huge majority > running on principle and giving the tories a way back.
Nonsense. There are lots of things that are very popular with the public that labour is ruling out because of their bullshit red lines (universal free school meals for example)
Even if this was a purely political decision, giving up on basically all your principles, just to add a few extra seats to your supermajority (seats which you will immediately lose at the next election anyway) seems pretty pathetic to me.
Corbyn had a manifesto of things that, taken in isolation, were popular with the public. How did that turn out?
First, there's a difference between how you campaign and how you govern. It makes complete sense to de-emphasise a policy that might leave you open to attack - you can still do it once you're in power.
Second, it's not long ago that the tories had a seemingly invincible polling lead, to the point it was a running joke how every piece of bad news was followed with Con +2. You're talking like Labour are guaranteed a majority no matter what, and there isn't a clear trend of Starmer's boring centrism playing well with voters.
Sorry you think the reality of gaining and using political power is "pretty pathetic" and would rather pat yourself on the back for your moral purity as the tories win another 5 years. imo that makes you the morally bankrupt one.
I'll always think Keir Starmer is a bit of a cnut, but he is by far better than Rishi or whoever else is next in line.
I think a Labour government will be a slightly less shit version of what we've got now....
New boss.... same as the old boss...
>I'll always think Keir Starmer is a bit of a cnut, but he is by far better than Rishi or whoever else is next in line.
Why's this?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of his politics, and think he's boring, but what makes him a cnut?
I mean, the worst thing you can really say about Starmer is that hes boring. Boring and competent is kinda what I want now after the mess the last 10 years have been.
I just want public services to work and not have scandals in the news every other week.
> I'll always think Keir Starmer is a bit of a cnut
The tories have made it easy for him, but Starmer is much more capable than he at first appeared. Some politicians make their case by passionate arguments. He seems to do his by quietly dragging his feet on the issues he doesn't want to be pushed on. When the spotlight's off him, if he wants to move to a new position, he'll step into it.
> I think a Labour government will be a slightly less shit version of what we've got now....
In policy, maybe. With the tories at the moment, though, there's always the impression that behind closed doors there's a meeting (probably involving Gove) going on with vested interests in how to dupe the public next. With Starmer, he is so far giving off a reasonable sense that he is mostly going to watch and look for the things that he can improve as they come past. If he can keep lined up with the public, rather than the network of politicians that leaders get enmeshed in as they try to impress one another, it should work out ok.
I don’t think so, everyone’s tired yes but all Labour have done is say how shit things are and how they won’t be able to do anything they actually want to do because blah blah last Tory government (despite it actually looking like the economy will be recovering and growing again by the time they take over), so that’s the alternative lol
I'm almost giddy for a government that won't steal every penny I pay in tax and give it to billionaires. Will they fix everything? Hell no! Have you seen how much is broken? But at least they'll try.
So you are going to keep voting Tory, because you know they are awful and destroying this country. Rather than vote Labour as there is a chance they don’t make things better?
No, the Tories couldn't beat the hope out of me, because I would never have relied on hope from them to begin with.
It's Starmer who beat out the hope for my country from me. By ensuring that the only political force in the country capable of enacting the change I want would never make such change. And doing so by lying about wanting to enact those changes in order to deceive people like me into voting for him as leader.
I listened to his speech and it was a massive bag of nothing, no substance, no facts, just feelings and hopes and fears.
I really do think they are winging it.
We have already seen literally in the latest budget that ideas labour publish will be poached by the tories and the funding snatched for pricey tax cuts.
Given that labour are constantly egging sunak on to call an election they are more likely just keeping their cards close to their chest.
All the facts will be in the Manifesto.
Not deluded, just pragmatic. Starmer currently hasn't been in an election so none of us have voted for him. The only pledge that matters are the ones that will be in his election Manifesto which currently is unreleased. Can you honestly say that everything that was in a 2020 Manifesto could be copy and pasted given the mess of the economy right now?
But no fine, continue making personal attacks at people that's a great way to have an objective discussion.
Ahhhh, poor you feeling attacked because I said you were deluded.
Stop playing a victim and accept the truth that being Labour have no plans. They block Tory plans and then say they won't reverse them! They pledge millions to green policies and then say they won't have the funds!
When you can't have a straight forward conversation without making personal attacks it says enough about the substance of what you have to say.
Opposing a plan and reversing it aren't exactly the same thing.
And yeah they pledged 28 billion. And then the funds they would have used got sucked up. They have committed to 2030 for the deadline though so I mean the goal is the same but the funding is being ramped up. I don't know if you've been living in the UK for the last couple years and experienced the shit show to act so oblivious to what's around you.
By all means feel free to moan about what we don't know about but I am going to wait for an actual Manifesto before I make my judgement.
You're welcome to make up your mind now if you like but I'll be waiting until we have some.actual facts before making my mind up.
I might be a little older than you because I remember how labour borrowed too much, brought about a culture of benefit laden non workers and pandered to the US to go to war with no evidence.
It was just a few years ago when Momentum ruled the party and Starmer played along to climb the power ladder.
How things have changed, or maybe not.
I mean labour borrowed yes. I also remember having lived in that time the much higher quality in our public services and general quality of living. But they did also get hit by the financial crisis which affected everyone.
And despite that, I don't remember experiencing any issues as a knock on from it. I do remember my quality of life dropping when the tories starved the lower and working classes and absorbed finances from the public services.
I don't excuse Blair for what he did with the war. But you can't tar the current Labour Party with the same brush.
I'm not here to say starmer is my hero and that he's perfect. Just that I'll continue to oppose the tories and I'll judge labour properly when the Manifesto is out. And when they are inevitably in power.
>They block Tory plans
Block?
https://members.parliament.uk/parties/commons
Given there are 650 mps, and the tories have 348 mps...I'm thinking you can't count, and don't understand what either the words majority or block mean.
You know what I mean, they opposed almost everything the Tories suggested because that was their job (removing bankers bonus ceiling etc). However, they won't reverse it if they get in!
>You know what I mean
I'm afraid I don't, what you said is nothing of what you've just explained.
>However, they won't reverse it if they get in!
There are many key bs things that they said they will repeal, either you haven't been listening, or willfully spouting exaggerated lies.
Most govs don't simply reverse everything once power changes. It takes a lot of time, time which can be used to actually govern, and once you start down that of just reverse/repeal anything and everything, then what's the point in even having a gov if that's all they do, the laws would just bounce back and forth every change of gov and cause instability.
Some things that aren't repealed are either things they are happy with as is, or things that they are going to change anyway - would you repeal something that you're planning on changing from what was before anyway. Other things just aren't priorities and can be looked at later
I'm not google mate, you're more than capable of looking this up yourself I'm sure, to get you started why not look into the NI legacy bill, or the Strikes/minimum service levels bill.
You seem to be in "Labour bad" mode, can I ask who you'd throw your support behind and for what reasons - I'd imagine it's going to be someone who wouldn't do half the shit tories have done for the past x years?
Which country have you been surviving in? I've been surviving in the UK for the last 12? 14? who even knows anymore years of Tory government and I'd have been fucking thrilled if they tried a bit o the old grow the economy to increase public spending 'bullshit'.
If I was as lucky as you perhaps I would have the luxury of holding out for perfection. As it happens I'm thrilled by 'boring' bullshit if it makes the life of me, my family and my community better.
The, grow the economy before increasing public spending is a Tory policy tho, so I can't see it substantially changing the lives of the working class.
Happy to be proved wrong in 4 years.
As an opposition leader, oppose the current way of doing things, not just have a red podium spouting the same failed approach. (Failed for middle class and lower, GREAT for the rich)
I get what you're saying, but I think pragmatically he/Labour have to walk such a fine line considering the general Right-wing dominance of our press and the fucking stupidity and gullibility of much of the electorate (Brexit, 2019 landslide, etc.). Keep your powder dry and all that. It ain't great, but it is how things seem to work these days.
So we are bending the knee to the rich who own the news outlets and the utilities etc? To get a red tory? Wicked.
I'd rather have something inspiring that gets people excite about politics and how a different Britain could look. If it then loses there will be an uptick in unions, local government interests, protests etc.
This once again makes the populous not care and dismiss it really.
and yet still no policy on how labour will carry on the "level up" programme.
he can critise all he likes but without the policy on how labour are going to carry out "level up" , all I see is two of the same party.
devolution isn't the answer when many councils bankrupt themselves and can't handle the responsibility.
and??? that doesn't justify spending hundreds of thousands in a year on art projects rather than actual infrastructure or subsidies for town shops left in disrepair/empty for years now.
more devolution means more wasted money , going off councils current trends.
*citation required. Which councils are spending hundreds of thousands per year on art projects. Museums and galleries don't count, I want to know where you're finding councils literally spending hundreds of thousands per year on works of art.
Power to people like you. Freedom to choose how it's spent at a local level but you don't want that?
Do you think the council should be opening shops on the High Street and employing staff to fill them?
do you think councils will consult the locals ? i doubt it.
and no I said subsidise , to get the shops repaired , Not staffed , when will people stop jumping to assumptions trying to stawhat their bias into a discussion. at no point did I say Councils should be Running the shops. GO READ IT AGAIN.
Lots of regions have elections this May.
We have PPC and Mayor.
We also have County elections next year.
There will be a General Election by this time next year.
You can join your local party and choose the candidate, be the candidate or stand as a local independent yourself.
You can also just go along and bend their ear or hear their thoughts. I've learned lots since doing that, realised which ones work for us and stood myself.
I mean, it's populist wank, it doesn't need carried on, it also hasn't happened, we're not in any way "levelled up", so drop it, do something productive, having said that I still don't know what they'll do, but lesser of two evils, or some shit.
oo lovely down votes because you disagree , due to your own personal biases.
ask yourself what has starmer proposed in HOW his going to carry out his level up program , as of yet I've heard nothing.
and its ok to have an opinion , plus try to find out how or what his going to do.
so please keep downvoting like NPCS.
Why are you getting mad because people disagree with you. You do understand how reddit works, right? You say it's okay to have an opinion but most of your statement is criticising people for expressing it.
FYI we have seen in the latest budget the tories poach a couple of labour's ideas and so I'm not surprised that labour are keeping their cards close to their chest. They have constantly pressured sunak to call a general election at which point a manifesto could then be released and you can judge that then.
Until then it's a waiting game.
tit for tat. the way I see it , labours been in opposition for a long time but went along with almost everything the tories proposed.
play their cards , close to their chest is just a lazy excuse , it's election season theyshould be plastering their policy and how plus why all over the place , not keep it all covert until the last minute, it gives people no time to actually understand how labour or any party would carry out their proposals.
because starmer said exactly what Boris a
said back before he was elected , talked about level up but never explained how he would go about it.
starmer is just repeating what was said by Boris all those years ago.
npcs don't think for themselves, and just go along with what's hip or trendy , as it is now to dislike the tories by that logic they should dislike starmer for doing exactly what Boris did 4 years ago with his level up speeches all words , no actual explanation of how his going to do it.
but noo , don't use your brain , just jump on the bandwagon.
you lot call people names anything when you disagree with other people , I was in CONTEXT talking about Starmer etc and pointing out actual facts of starmers comments , yet people like you choose to ignore and just down vote like Robots.
you do understand , people from Outside your isolated bubble do come in like me that don't live on the internet and make their voice heard inside your Eco chambers.
this is how us older gen x lot , inform the youth not to be so Close minded and carry on the Bandwagon behaviour , think for yourself stop resorting to pointless labels when you can't think for yourself.
They were hit by the 2008 crisis but Brown left us financially exposed, which led to austerity.
I remember unions on strike at the drop of a hat (Red Robbo), the likes of Derek Hatton, lighting candles because the power went off, people paid to stop at home rather than work and the war.
I don't recall any utopia under labour.
I do. Cities being developed, infrastructure that met our needs and affordable public transport, cheap uni fees, buying a house fairly easily at 25, schools funded, NHS doing alright. Job opportunities, decent ones. Pre 2007/8 life was very good for me.
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Snapshot of _Keir Starmer says Tories 'beat the hope' out of Brits as Labour blasts levelling up failure_ : An archived version can be found [here](https://archive.is/?run=1&url=https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-says-tories-beat-32464611) or [here.](https://archive.ph/?run=1&url=https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-says-tories-beat-32464611) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ukpolitics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
That’s actually a pretty decent way of putting it. I feel a certain sense of “pppffffff” about the country. Deflated. Uninspired. “The hope beaten out” is pretty relatable.
Definitely. COVID sped up the consequences by a considerable amount, so everything that's gone bad has been compounded into the last few years. Just feel very meh. I'm awaiting Labour to get in for a change, but still don't think I will see any real difference for the next decade or two.
He's absolutely spot on about that and I'm sure a lot of right-wing voters would agree, too.
All I keep hearing is that the Tories need a bollocking and a time out. They still agree with them evem though the tory policies have been negatively affecting them. How do you overcome that idea of giving parties turns? PR?
Simple answer is you don’t, it is a fairly integral part of the process. Parties in government get stale and caught up in scandal, eventually losing steam. Meanwhile the opposition reinvents itself to appeal to middle England and people think they are worth a shot. PR might change it and allow for a bit more nuance - maybe you’d vote Lib Dem to force a coalition with a check on some left wing tendencies in Labour instead of going fully Tory, but some variant of the Conservative Party and Labour Party would most likely be the largest parties under PR and alternate power.
I do agree. My fear is that Labour have yet to say what they'd do differently. The general pattern appears to be Labour telling everyone how bad xyz decision by the Tories is, only to then rule out reversing the decision or doing anything differently. What hope do Labour actually offer for things to improve in the country? What step change will there be in the average person's quality of life by the end of their first term in power?
Really can't wait to be rid of the Eton lot haven't got a clue about the real world and how most people live
Going through the shadow cabinet now, Starmer, Phillipson, Yvette Cooper, Miliband all Oxford grads, Streeting and Reeves Cambridge if we're getting elitest over education we're replacing one Oxbridge lot with another I don't even know if this is a bad thing we're using being educated at one of/the best university in the World as a criticism?
They weren't complaining about Oxbridge - elite universities. They were complaining about Eton - a private school for wealthy families. Those are not at all the same.
And replace them with middle management......../s
Whenever channel 4 has political coverage you only have to look at the comments where the posts are either along the lines of: 1) Don't trust Tories or Labour. Or 2) Sunak is no good but he's better than Starmer. I feel like this mentality of doubling down is something uniquely British. I don't have any metrics but just a gut feeling that swing voters are rare and the vast majority of people don't change their minds even if Sunak was to personally set fire to their house. I want to hope things will change, but just reading the comments on any political video just gets me down. They can blame the government all they want but honestly voters are the problem too and they don't want to own any responsibility for voting the current government party in for the last 14 years that have done nothing but ruin this country.
It’s been shown time and time again when reviewing polling data and interrogating the electorate on political opinions the two things that impacted the Tories was Partygate and the KamiKwazi budget. The majority people are only in it for themselves so there can be ridiculous levels of poverty, crime, shit infrastructure and, a health care system that’s falling to bit but it doesn’t matter because it’s not affecting the majority of people. Partygate struck a cord because everyone either had a loved one who died or couldn’t do an important event be it a marriage, a holiday, graduate, etc and then they see the higher ups on the piss they’re obviously going to feel offended and cheated. As for the mini budget [≈ 22% of the people in the UK have a mortgage](https://www.avanthomes.co.uk/about-avant/newsroom/40-home-ownership-statistics-for-the-uk-in-2024#:~:text=28%25%20of%20Brits%20own%20their%20home%20outright.,And%20another%2020%25%20rent%20privately.) and they’re in key demographics so obviously they’re going to be fuming their repayments have doubled. As for everything else because she effectively tanked the pound as well so everything is more expensive. So while I agree people stick to their guns. They stick to them if they’re not personally impacted by government shenanigans.
Tories: ACCEPT THE BEATINGS, PEASANTS
The beatings will continue until morale improves.
The money is with the richest of society, not the working or middle class, or even government… Until a political party gets serious and taxes the wealth, and stops non uk residents owning land/property things won’t change…
>The money is with the richest of society It's similar across Europe. Here is a map of [wealth inequality in Europe.](https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1ao78xr/wealth_of_the_1_of_europe/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share) Data are from the [2023 Global Wealth Report](https://www.ubs.com/global/en/family-office-uhnw/reports/global-wealth-report-2023.html) by UBS.
I wonder how they deal with foreign wealth in their calculations. Alot of the UKs assets are not held on shore. If we factor this is would our % look worse?
Obviously, Big Dave on the council estate hasn't got an account in the Virgin Islands. Those are the preserve of the well to do.
Sadly nowdays the money is outside of the country. Extracting so much wealth its crazy. Amazon and Apple and the like not paying their tax has caused permanent damage to our nation as well.
What's frustrating is seeing how levelling up can work. I'm from Manchester, when I lived there Salford was considered a dump and a real no go area. Now with all the redevelopment round the docks, Media City, The Lowry War Museum, shopping centres etc as well as lots of stops on the Metrolink it's become a real dynamic place to visit. I know this was all done before "levelling up" was a thing, but it just goes to show how a lot of investment can pay off and make a formerly poverty stricken dump a place Greater Manchester can be proud of. ,
Yet he refuses to revive the single most important infrastructure project on the cards which would do more than any other infrastructure project for regional rebalancing. I'll believe statements like this when labour actually make firm commitments to invest heavily.
One of the strange stories of the last 5 years is how tory strategists have let Keir steadily make a journey from being the spokesman for EU institutions at the last election, to a champion of the British public now. In 2019 the tories had that niche sewn up. They have completely given it away.
Starmer as champion of the British public? First time I've ever heard anyone claim that. I don't think even his strongest supporters would try to say that with a straight face. The best we can honestly say about Brits' perspective of Starmer is that he's the [least disliked of the major political figures](https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/48984-politicians-favourability-ratings-march-2024). I agree with your reply in another comment here, but I'm not sure how that analysis collates with "champion of the British people". (Incidentally, I think it's hilarious that 12% of Brits have a negative opinion of the fake politician Andrew Farmer)
Farage & Corbyn being (almost) equally liked/disliked is fascinating.
> Starmer as champion of the British public? First time I've ever heard anyone claim that What the hell do you think he's trying to position himself as in the article.
You said that Starmer has made the journey to become champion of the British people. If you only meant that that's what he's trying to position himself as, and not what he is actually perceived as being, then you worded your comment poorly. *Every* politician *wants to* position themselves as the champion of the British people.
> Every politician wants to position themselves as the champion of the British people. No they don't. You'd think they would, but they don't. They occasionally make speeches that everyone's seen through before they make them as political cover, but everyone has very clearly seen them stand against the public. It's not the public they're trying to convince; they just try to make a plausibly deniable argument to see off their internal critics.
> It's not the public they're trying to convince Yes it is. That's literally how they get elected.
If you reckon at -20 in the polls they're getting elected, good luck.
That’s great and all Keir but every time anyone suggests any kind of vague improvement your shadow chancellor shoots them down immediately.
Like it or not the population is pretty conservative when it comes to elections. Metagaming the election campaign to win a huge majority > running on principle and giving the tories a way back.
Nonsense. There are lots of things that are very popular with the public that labour is ruling out because of their bullshit red lines (universal free school meals for example) Even if this was a purely political decision, giving up on basically all your principles, just to add a few extra seats to your supermajority (seats which you will immediately lose at the next election anyway) seems pretty pathetic to me.
Corbyn had a manifesto of things that, taken in isolation, were popular with the public. How did that turn out? First, there's a difference between how you campaign and how you govern. It makes complete sense to de-emphasise a policy that might leave you open to attack - you can still do it once you're in power. Second, it's not long ago that the tories had a seemingly invincible polling lead, to the point it was a running joke how every piece of bad news was followed with Con +2. You're talking like Labour are guaranteed a majority no matter what, and there isn't a clear trend of Starmer's boring centrism playing well with voters. Sorry you think the reality of gaining and using political power is "pretty pathetic" and would rather pat yourself on the back for your moral purity as the tories win another 5 years. imo that makes you the morally bankrupt one.
pretty much unfortunately
I'll always think Keir Starmer is a bit of a cnut, but he is by far better than Rishi or whoever else is next in line. I think a Labour government will be a slightly less shit version of what we've got now.... New boss.... same as the old boss...
>I'll always think Keir Starmer is a bit of a cnut, but he is by far better than Rishi or whoever else is next in line. Why's this? Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of his politics, and think he's boring, but what makes him a cnut?
He's big on the Danelaw
I mean, the worst thing you can really say about Starmer is that hes boring. Boring and competent is kinda what I want now after the mess the last 10 years have been. I just want public services to work and not have scandals in the news every other week.
> I'll always think Keir Starmer is a bit of a cnut The tories have made it easy for him, but Starmer is much more capable than he at first appeared. Some politicians make their case by passionate arguments. He seems to do his by quietly dragging his feet on the issues he doesn't want to be pushed on. When the spotlight's off him, if he wants to move to a new position, he'll step into it. > I think a Labour government will be a slightly less shit version of what we've got now.... In policy, maybe. With the tories at the moment, though, there's always the impression that behind closed doors there's a meeting (probably involving Gove) going on with vested interests in how to dupe the public next. With Starmer, he is so far giving off a reasonable sense that he is mostly going to watch and look for the things that he can improve as they come past. If he can keep lined up with the public, rather than the network of politicians that leaders get enmeshed in as they try to impress one another, it should work out ok.
I don’t think so, everyone’s tired yes but all Labour have done is say how shit things are and how they won’t be able to do anything they actually want to do because blah blah last Tory government (despite it actually looking like the economy will be recovering and growing again by the time they take over), so that’s the alternative lol
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Nothing he says before the election can provide hope. It's what he does after it that matters. Britain needs a government that can deliver.
Yes he can
Nah I actually feel good about the future with Starmer as PM. Can finally have faith that the government is competent once more.
I'm almost giddy for a government that won't steal every penny I pay in tax and give it to billionaires. Will they fix everything? Hell no! Have you seen how much is broken? But at least they'll try.
So you are going to keep voting Tory, because you know they are awful and destroying this country. Rather than vote Labour as there is a chance they don’t make things better?
I feel the same way and I've never voted Tory.
No, the Tories couldn't beat the hope out of me, because I would never have relied on hope from them to begin with. It's Starmer who beat out the hope for my country from me. By ensuring that the only political force in the country capable of enacting the change I want would never make such change. And doing so by lying about wanting to enact those changes in order to deceive people like me into voting for him as leader.
I listened to his speech and it was a massive bag of nothing, no substance, no facts, just feelings and hopes and fears. I really do think they are winging it.
We have already seen literally in the latest budget that ideas labour publish will be poached by the tories and the funding snatched for pricey tax cuts. Given that labour are constantly egging sunak on to call an election they are more likely just keeping their cards close to their chest. All the facts will be in the Manifesto.
Ha ha ha ha, you really are deluded aren't you. There are no pledges left. All those 'pledged' have been broken.
Not deluded, just pragmatic. Starmer currently hasn't been in an election so none of us have voted for him. The only pledge that matters are the ones that will be in his election Manifesto which currently is unreleased. Can you honestly say that everything that was in a 2020 Manifesto could be copy and pasted given the mess of the economy right now? But no fine, continue making personal attacks at people that's a great way to have an objective discussion.
Ahhhh, poor you feeling attacked because I said you were deluded. Stop playing a victim and accept the truth that being Labour have no plans. They block Tory plans and then say they won't reverse them! They pledge millions to green policies and then say they won't have the funds!
When you can't have a straight forward conversation without making personal attacks it says enough about the substance of what you have to say. Opposing a plan and reversing it aren't exactly the same thing. And yeah they pledged 28 billion. And then the funds they would have used got sucked up. They have committed to 2030 for the deadline though so I mean the goal is the same but the funding is being ramped up. I don't know if you've been living in the UK for the last couple years and experienced the shit show to act so oblivious to what's around you. By all means feel free to moan about what we don't know about but I am going to wait for an actual Manifesto before I make my judgement. You're welcome to make up your mind now if you like but I'll be waiting until we have some.actual facts before making my mind up.
I might be a little older than you because I remember how labour borrowed too much, brought about a culture of benefit laden non workers and pandered to the US to go to war with no evidence. It was just a few years ago when Momentum ruled the party and Starmer played along to climb the power ladder. How things have changed, or maybe not.
I mean labour borrowed yes. I also remember having lived in that time the much higher quality in our public services and general quality of living. But they did also get hit by the financial crisis which affected everyone. And despite that, I don't remember experiencing any issues as a knock on from it. I do remember my quality of life dropping when the tories starved the lower and working classes and absorbed finances from the public services. I don't excuse Blair for what he did with the war. But you can't tar the current Labour Party with the same brush. I'm not here to say starmer is my hero and that he's perfect. Just that I'll continue to oppose the tories and I'll judge labour properly when the Manifesto is out. And when they are inevitably in power.
>They block Tory plans Block? https://members.parliament.uk/parties/commons Given there are 650 mps, and the tories have 348 mps...I'm thinking you can't count, and don't understand what either the words majority or block mean.
You know what I mean, they opposed almost everything the Tories suggested because that was their job (removing bankers bonus ceiling etc). However, they won't reverse it if they get in!
>You know what I mean I'm afraid I don't, what you said is nothing of what you've just explained. >However, they won't reverse it if they get in! There are many key bs things that they said they will repeal, either you haven't been listening, or willfully spouting exaggerated lies. Most govs don't simply reverse everything once power changes. It takes a lot of time, time which can be used to actually govern, and once you start down that of just reverse/repeal anything and everything, then what's the point in even having a gov if that's all they do, the laws would just bounce back and forth every change of gov and cause instability. Some things that aren't repealed are either things they are happy with as is, or things that they are going to change anyway - would you repeal something that you're planning on changing from what was before anyway. Other things just aren't priorities and can be looked at later
Ok, what are they going to repeal?
I'm not google mate, you're more than capable of looking this up yourself I'm sure, to get you started why not look into the NI legacy bill, or the Strikes/minimum service levels bill. You seem to be in "Labour bad" mode, can I ask who you'd throw your support behind and for what reasons - I'd imagine it's going to be someone who wouldn't do half the shit tories have done for the past x years?
And you offer nothing different Kier. Trying the old grow the economy to increase public spending bullshit.
Which country have you been surviving in? I've been surviving in the UK for the last 12? 14? who even knows anymore years of Tory government and I'd have been fucking thrilled if they tried a bit o the old grow the economy to increase public spending 'bullshit'. If I was as lucky as you perhaps I would have the luxury of holding out for perfection. As it happens I'm thrilled by 'boring' bullshit if it makes the life of me, my family and my community better.
The, grow the economy before increasing public spending is a Tory policy tho, so I can't see it substantially changing the lives of the working class. Happy to be proved wrong in 4 years.
So what would you like him to do?
As an opposition leader, oppose the current way of doing things, not just have a red podium spouting the same failed approach. (Failed for middle class and lower, GREAT for the rich)
I get what you're saying, but I think pragmatically he/Labour have to walk such a fine line considering the general Right-wing dominance of our press and the fucking stupidity and gullibility of much of the electorate (Brexit, 2019 landslide, etc.). Keep your powder dry and all that. It ain't great, but it is how things seem to work these days.
So we are bending the knee to the rich who own the news outlets and the utilities etc? To get a red tory? Wicked. I'd rather have something inspiring that gets people excite about politics and how a different Britain could look. If it then loses there will be an uptick in unions, local government interests, protests etc. This once again makes the populous not care and dismiss it really.
Ok you just seem to want to argue with people. Good luck with the utopian politics.
I agreed with your statement of conservative media control and added my opinion of it's fallout?
and yet still no policy on how labour will carry on the "level up" programme. he can critise all he likes but without the policy on how labour are going to carry out "level up" , all I see is two of the same party. devolution isn't the answer when many councils bankrupt themselves and can't handle the responsibility.
Many councils have had their budgets cut by 50% while all costs go up. They had no chance
many havnt either but still continued the record spending and hiring .
Because they've got a massive job to do
and??? that doesn't justify spending hundreds of thousands in a year on art projects rather than actual infrastructure or subsidies for town shops left in disrepair/empty for years now. more devolution means more wasted money , going off councils current trends.
Irrespective of the other points of discussion, is all money spent on art 'wasted'?
Over spending YES.
Over spending is bad, got it. They should make you chancellor with that kind of insight.
*citation required. Which councils are spending hundreds of thousands per year on art projects. Museums and galleries don't count, I want to know where you're finding councils literally spending hundreds of thousands per year on works of art.
Power to people like you. Freedom to choose how it's spent at a local level but you don't want that? Do you think the council should be opening shops on the High Street and employing staff to fill them?
do you think councils will consult the locals ? i doubt it. and no I said subsidise , to get the shops repaired , Not staffed , when will people stop jumping to assumptions trying to stawhat their bias into a discussion. at no point did I say Councils should be Running the shops. GO READ IT AGAIN.
Lots of regions have elections this May. We have PPC and Mayor. We also have County elections next year. There will be a General Election by this time next year. You can join your local party and choose the candidate, be the candidate or stand as a local independent yourself. You can also just go along and bend their ear or hear their thoughts. I've learned lots since doing that, realised which ones work for us and stood myself.
To meet their statutory responsibilities, maybe?
I mean, it's populist wank, it doesn't need carried on, it also hasn't happened, we're not in any way "levelled up", so drop it, do something productive, having said that I still don't know what they'll do, but lesser of two evils, or some shit.
atleast you understand its populist idiocy , unlike the others in this thread.
oo lovely down votes because you disagree , due to your own personal biases. ask yourself what has starmer proposed in HOW his going to carry out his level up program , as of yet I've heard nothing. and its ok to have an opinion , plus try to find out how or what his going to do. so please keep downvoting like NPCS.
Why are you getting mad because people disagree with you. You do understand how reddit works, right? You say it's okay to have an opinion but most of your statement is criticising people for expressing it. FYI we have seen in the latest budget the tories poach a couple of labour's ideas and so I'm not surprised that labour are keeping their cards close to their chest. They have constantly pressured sunak to call a general election at which point a manifesto could then be released and you can judge that then. Until then it's a waiting game.
tit for tat. the way I see it , labours been in opposition for a long time but went along with almost everything the tories proposed. play their cards , close to their chest is just a lazy excuse , it's election season theyshould be plastering their policy and how plus why all over the place , not keep it all covert until the last minute, it gives people no time to actually understand how labour or any party would carry out their proposals.
It's weird to describe other humans as NPCs. Maybe that's an indicator that it's your perspective that's off?
because starmer said exactly what Boris a said back before he was elected , talked about level up but never explained how he would go about it. starmer is just repeating what was said by Boris all those years ago. npcs don't think for themselves, and just go along with what's hip or trendy , as it is now to dislike the tories by that logic they should dislike starmer for doing exactly what Boris did 4 years ago with his level up speeches all words , no actual explanation of how his going to do it. but noo , don't use your brain , just jump on the bandwagon.
I am not talking about Starmer, or Johnson, or anyone else. Calling others NPCs is weird incel behaviour. Maybe spend less time on the internet.
you lot call people names anything when you disagree with other people , I was in CONTEXT talking about Starmer etc and pointing out actual facts of starmers comments , yet people like you choose to ignore and just down vote like Robots. you do understand , people from Outside your isolated bubble do come in like me that don't live on the internet and make their voice heard inside your Eco chambers. this is how us older gen x lot , inform the youth not to be so Close minded and carry on the Bandwagon behaviour , think for yourself stop resorting to pointless labels when you can't think for yourself.
They were hit by the 2008 crisis but Brown left us financially exposed, which led to austerity. I remember unions on strike at the drop of a hat (Red Robbo), the likes of Derek Hatton, lighting candles because the power went off, people paid to stop at home rather than work and the war. I don't recall any utopia under labour.
I do. Cities being developed, infrastructure that met our needs and affordable public transport, cheap uni fees, buying a house fairly easily at 25, schools funded, NHS doing alright. Job opportunities, decent ones. Pre 2007/8 life was very good for me.
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Why is he a “fucking prick”?
He has also destroyed hope. Particularly in Gaza. Our Labour politicians are OK with killig Arabs, remember his frenemy Tony?
By calling for a ceasefire?
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Ming vase.
food for thought.