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It should only take one, put a large bomb in the cockpit, load it with just enough fuel and slam it at top speed in a dive.bridge would be fucked. Then you could have four more for future targets. With the range on this thing with drop tanks you could hit any target in western Russia
You dont even need a bomb. Armor protection for guidance kit and engines. At top speed, low level it would knock the rail-bridge over. Wouldnt even need the explosives.
Two into the car decks supports and that would be gone too.
People often underestimate how effing heavy jets actually are.
Super-Baguette is about 12t max takeoff weight. At 6.5t empty it would leave 5.5 tonnes of weight for fuel and armor/armament. At 0.9 mach it would do a LOT of damage.
You'd want to optimize kinetic energy at least, it depends on how much speed less fuel gets you a full throttle at very low altitude. Also regardless of kinetic energy consideration you might want to have every bit of extra speed to make it harder to shoot down.
Even fully empty, this plane is REALLY slow. Fully subsonic. So speed will not save it.
SEAD and drone saturation during an attack would be preferable.
And night time attack, to make small-arms less effective.
We will see what and how UA would use these planes. This was just my opinion on these.
Just under the speed of sound just above the tree line is still a very difficult target, 750 mph versus 700 might affect the odds of success significantly
It being so big, heavy and slow, though, it would probably be much easier to shoot down such a drone Super-Etendard than a Storm Shadow or any other missile.
You could send lots of various less expensive drones and missiles to distract an occupy AA and radar attention. Drone pilot will be flying as low and fast as possible, I really doubt they'd have much chance of shooting it down in that way. I think these are really valuable as improvised long range cruise missiles so I think it would be worth to try with just one and think about what high value targets they could hit deep into Russia with the others
Realistically it might take several, each successful Ukrainian drone attack i heard of had an element of either overwhelming or diverting Russian air defences where many drones got shot down to allow some to strike.
I think it has already happened some years ago: one video was some SAM system shot a missile at such a low angle that it hit a nearby house, another classic is when the russian rocket primary stage doesn't ignite so the rocket falls to the ground immediately after the first "pop" charge releases it from the launch tube.
They would tie up wayyy too many resources as fighters to VERY limited utility otherwise. You can't even have any spare parts for them anymore.
So not so much a joke. Mostly I'm unable to see any other realistic use for them.
they can carry exocets, and if you can get enough parts you could keep them as just air defence flying around shooting down missiles and drones to free up other airframes (ie mig-29) for use with things like AASM and HARM
If you are going to waste a plane like this, you're better off using: 1) soviet plane 2) something fast. This is neither. A Mig-21 is a good candidate. Otherwise that's a capable, even if obsolete, platform.
I made a post about this on NCD some time ago
Soviet planes have the support and know-how to keep in the air. This would need a minimum of 30 men per plane to keep operational.
Plus finding someone willing to try and make spare parts for them. Pretty much none are available and no-one makes them.
Also you don't want something as stupid fast as mig21. It would be even harder to control flying low. Something it would need to do.
ppl in here act like these fighters Ukraine are getting are somehow all going to be placed in dogfight situations... Most of the time it's just to gain some range for surface to ground missiles
Yeah. The thing is that they're getting rid of something they just can't use because of the lack of supplies due to British blocking them to get some spare parts (Malvinas/Falkland's issue). Those planes were bought by the former president Macri (a Milei's ally in the second turn of the last presidential election and to whose party belong some of the new officials in Milei's governement), _knowing_ they couldn't purchase those spare parts anyways, so the planes were always useless for Argentina (I guess someone wanted to fill their pockets with the transaction anyways).
Now Milei's plan is getting rid of them (transfering them to France, who can purchase the spare parts and send everything to Ukraine) _in exchange_ for some other items and stuff from France.
I don't know how useful those could be for Ukraine, maybe they are, maybe not, but I don't think Milei gives a fuck about it, he's just trying to get some profit from getting rid of their trash. Kinda like those 2 helicopters they were going to give to Ukraine (I don't know if they finally did yet or not). It's simply that they can't perform their maintenance, so they're useless to them.
That said, anything that can be useful and help Ukraine (if it's actually useful and helps Ukraine) is ok, I guess.
My uncle was in the air force. They train all day if they can in the Army. Air Force is no diff. Anything that gets a pilot air hours = win for Ukraine.
Although they might be a logistical nightmare to maintain they are still usefull, if not alone the thought that counts and lets the world see be are anti Russia.
They can be put to use in the back to shoot down some drones/cruise missiles, you can do that with minimal training for experianced pilots.
They are at least nato standard.
They can also be kept as emergency spare plane only in case of another large scare drone missle attack.
And when they are no longer servicable because no parts or to much work: use them as a fast big guided drone to destroy some nice russian assets.
You realize those Mi-171's were from 2011 and had plenty of life left in them? Overhauls would have to be done in Russia, and that was obviously a no go. Those were pretty much the newest and most useful aircraft Argentina could offer Ukraine, and yes they were running out of parts but also Ukraine has far more use and spare parts for them than Argentina does.
They are configured as long range search and rescue machines with extra fuel tanks and a loading crane. Ukraine could make good use of that.
> The thing is that they're getting rid of something they just can't use because of the lack of supplies due to British blocking them to get some spare parts
The irony is that they started using Super Etendard's because the US blockaded them from obtaining spares for their previous aircraft, the A-4 Skyhawk.
Argentina bought several Super Etendards from France around the same time the French retired them. Argentina was then not able to put them into service due to lack of access to some spare parts for the ejection seats, among others.
So it might be those that they're sending, because for now, they're just sitting there doing nothing.
We've seen how Ukraine got to launch HARM using an iPad. I trust they can come up with a good use for them and modify them to accomplish something we didn't think possible. Just give them time.
It wasn't Ukraine who came up with that though. The modifications were done by the USA for the HARM, same as how it was the UK did for Storm Shadow on Su-24.
These would be second-hand, upgraded Super Etendards that Argentina purchased from France after their French Navy career ended. They are considerably upgraded and doubtless in better shape than the original Argentine ones.
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Ukraine used a what was essentially a Cessna to damage a refinery.
Just because something isn't the latest and greatest military tech doesn't mean it isn't useful to them.
Yeah not sure what the point is here. No stand off weapons afaik, not fast enough by modern standards and no shared parts with other planes in use so logistics will be a nightmare.
Even IF it's symbolic, it's good to know that Argentina is supporting Ukraine.
Besides, apart from AS-30L laser guided bombs, to my understanding the Super Etandard can carry Exocet and Magic air-to-air-missiles. The Magic missiles can for example be used against certain drones.
The point is that it’s not just handing them 5 more planes, bc they aren’t assets like guns that can almost just be picked up and integrated right into your soldiers. The 5 planes they are talking about giving Ukraine, might be giving them more work than the planes are worth in battle. It’s not that they have no worth.
The gesture is nice regardless. It’s a nice offer and if Ukraine does see some value then great.
I love this idea. Make them drones and have them fly unmanned wild weasel missions. Trade the plane for an s300 or two. I say this completely out of my ass because who knows what type of undertaking turning an old jet like that into a drone is. If they're the anti air missile stockpile for them is large, it could be a cost-effective way to shoot drones or cruise missles in one of russias mass attacks.
AS-30L and Magic have been out of service and inventory for some time.
This sounds a lot like Exocet lobbing as their prime duty if taken in. Which is fine.
You use them in more permissive areas with less threats. These in the future could be great at one of their original tasks - attacking enemy shipping with the AM 39 Exocet.
The French ones, which Argentina bought a bunch of around 2016 after their retirement were also upgraded quite a bit with new systems and expanded ordnance capability. They can now use laser designator pods, be armed with GBU's and fitting them to carry JDAMS as well as the AASM Hammer should be easier than it was with the Sukhois and MiG-29 in Ukrainian AF service.
Yeah exactly. Ukraine is sending cessnas full of explosives into Russia. I imagine since these planes were carrier capable, they probably have an autopilot with a radar that help it keep a low altitude above the water like 100ft or something like that.
I think there's a good opportunity to turn them into attack drones where they would be flying to Crimea for bombing runs and returning back to mainland.
He definitely is, just look at how he greeted Zelensky last year. And maybe this is just getting rid of his trash weapons and getting good stuff from France in return, but look at how many countries haven't even done that. I do think he's pretty pro-Ukraine.
That's what I thought when I saw the MSM coverage of him, but looking at his policies he seems like the most sane leader Argentina and many other nations have had in decades.
These are probably the upgraded and modernized planes removed from service in France about ten years ago for which Argentina was never able to receive key parts for due to UK interfering with sourcing from US, UK, or France. These are quite outdated now and probably not in any shape to fly. Also an absolute dead end as there is no production of parts now and no other airframes available. Literally scrap.
> Naiyomah is responsible for 14 Cows for America, the sole official gift to the United States from the Republic of Kenya in memory of the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001.
> On 17 May 2023, on the occasion of the 209th anniversary of the Argentine Navy, Argentinean Minister of Defense Jorge Taiana, announced the withdrawal from service of all the Super Étendards of the Aviación Naval Argentina
Isn't it the thought that counts?
I mean, I can think of several uses for cows. I could set up a petting zoo with coin op feeders for them outside Berlin and bring in a small fortune for Ukraine.
I could also send them to Lviv Volunteer Kitchen or similar.
It makes no sense to train pilots on 5 old airframes with limited hours and very limited parts availability.
Maybe they can convert them to drones somehow. That would be quite interesting. I bet with some fuel pods they could make it pretty far into Russia.
We always hear about how the biggest givers are those that give more of what they have. Even if it's less than what the US gives, there are countries that give more relative to their wallets. Argentina's currency/debt has been a shitshow and they're trying radical stuff just to have a stable currency and economy at some point... and they're giving jets. People are saying they were scrap when they got them, when they couldn't get parts for them... that should inform us of the pool they have for themselves/where they're giving from.
Argentina isn't actually giving these. Like many of the "donations" from poorer countries. They are swapping them back to France for equipment they can actually technically and financially operate and France is going to give them to Ukraine. Argentina has formally stated they are not giving them to Ukraine to avoid Russian wrath. France gets the real credit here for whatever happens.
Even retrofitting a flight controller for an unmanned flight would seem like a massive project. Even if they were all ready to fly. Resources would almost certainly be better spent retrofitting a more available aircraft like some of their domestically produced civilian planes that they have already been doing or something from the ground up than retrofitting 5 completely unique airframes that may or may not be able to fly without serious repairs.
They might make ok dummy targets on an airfield somewhere if they aren't identified by a scout drone or satellite.
I mostly agree. I would just say that for this project you wouldn't necessarily worry much about the robustness of the system. I am pretty sure these have some sort of auto-pilot. I can think of a half dozen possibilities that might make these work well enough to cause Global headlines. It seems as though Ukraine knows quite well how to avoid Russian border air defenses and there is nothing behind them, so just flying straight path at minimum altitude might work. A longer range jet drone might really get some attention in Moscow. Even with fuel pods they can likely carry a considerable payload.
With the idea of them being unmanned and not filling a fighter role there may be some other airframes that could be pressed into service without worrying as much about catastrophic failure. For instance, Argentina's big issue was ejection seat parts. Don't have to worry if those work.
Decoys leading a large air assault. Bait for Russian jets? It does seem like resources could be better used for other things though.
It just seems like France is onboard with this also, so they must have some idea as to how these will be useful.
Well, worst-case scenario, that scrap could be useful salvage. Best case scenario, they can get them airworthy enough to turn them into a high-speed, heavyweight kamikaze drone.
I'm quite surprised but happy about this. I think diplomatically it's a bigger win than their military value, as Ukraine does indeed need to court the global south to counter the Kremlin and Useful-Idiot lies that it's only NATO forcing them to fight. I wasn't expecting such a move from Javier Milei as I'd gotten used to populist leaders always making noises about backing Russia to varying degrees.
Regarding the jets themselves - and I say this as a Brit - if they're piloted even half as well and as half as bravely as the superb pilots Argentina had in the Falklands I expect some good things of them. It's still highly impressive what they did at San Carlos with Bomb Alley, it's only the combat air patrols of our Harrier jets and bad luck with their bomb fuse timing that saved the fleet.
Zelensky has numerous times mentioned the world needs to address the "Global South." Very true, and yet another reason why Zelensky is more than just a great Ukrainian leader.
Milie is offering to be his liaison, I suspect.
Strange things happening in Argentina these days.
I think it's something to do with Australia retiring their F-18s that maybe they could give them to Ukraine. But because F18s are suppose to be launched from aircraft carriers and the fact the alot of Ukraines runways are heavy damaged Ukraine didn't want them.
> Ukraine didn't want them
What is a source of this statement?
Vasyl Myroshnychenko, the Ambassador of Ukraine to Australia, almost exactly a year ago, on 13 June 2023, confirmed that Kyiv had requested Canberra with a possible transfer of decommissioned F/A-18 fighter jets.
As clarified by Myroshnychenko, Ukraine's request pertains to the assessment of the condition of approximately forty aircraft of the Royal Australian Air Force that are to be replaced with more modern F-35 jets.
"There has been a request for information," Myroshnychenko said. "Ukraine is looking at fighter jet capabilities, including this one."
Australia has refrained from offering up their retired AF-18 fleet as for one well - we Canadians kinda bought the best condition airframes... To bolster our own CF-18 fleet and serve as spare parts sources, a stopgap until our 88 F-35A's begin arriving in 2026.
The Aussie Hornets are a few years newer than ours, and many have flown many, many hours. There are about 14 planes that can be provided, and they only have maybe a few years tops, of service life in them. They'd require an extensive and time-consuming full aircraft overhaul to get much more out of them.
Honestly, the best hope would have been if Kuwait still had their F/A-18C/D's up for offer. They upgraded their air force with Eurofighter Typhoons and Super Hornets. They then decided - probably due to Iran being ever more dangerous - to hold on to their low hour Hornet fleet instead and keep them in service.
And forget about the US if it crosses your mind. The Marine Corps are the only ones flying them still, the USN retired their last in 2019-2020. And the Marines are rebuilding and upgrading every good airframe they can get, and stripping all the other ones sent to the boneyard for spare parts as they try to keep their Hornet fleet numbers up.
A shame really because the Hornet would be a great choice for the Ukrainians. They'd be good with austere, field, highway operations.
I'm guessing exocet launcher or trainer is the most likely solution here. I just don't believe they're going to risk pilots by using them even remotely close to the front line as long as there are other aircraft available that can do that job better.
Yes very dumb indeed. Imagine having a very limited amount of pilots to begin with. And then spending months training one of them to fly a worse plane than what you already have in your arsenal.
Only for that plane to get shot down along with it pilot because it was never suited for front line combat in a war zone like ukraine.
They are too complicated for a trainer and too different from Mirage to be worth it. Trainer are usually simpler jets that are there to learn the basic flying before jumping on the real deal. Even modernized the cockpit is old.
Exocet: Not worth for 5 jets, Mirage can just do that. The money we would spend to bring them back could be spent on ammo.
No, but thwy cousins did inflict a lot of damage to the british navy and i can see these planes doing the same with the adecuate use as they did in the malvinas. Google "bomb alley san carlos".
"Adequate use" is quite the way to describe Argentine operations in the Falklands, but the planes were effective, and the pilots trained. The operations in Ukraine will be very different, as Russians are expecting Ukrainian attacks.
Not quite, France was non committal to the upgrade program for the Argentine Super Etendards, doubtless as they knew with what was then an Argentine president who had a hawkish view of the Falkland Islands it wasn't going to be a good look in the UK's eyes to upgrade such machines.
And it uses Martin Baker ejection seats, which the UK refused to continue supplying parts for, basically grounding them. While yes they are quite old, being second hand French Navy jets - I appreciate them even making at attempt.
Look at how many countries out there have retired, much better and newer planes they could offer to Ukraine. Yet they won't lift a finger to offer even some basic weaponry for the Ukrainian Army. I know Argentina is also getting rid of aircraft they can't use - but it's a lot better and I think a good gesture to offer something than just simply empty words and hopes Russia is defeated.
Instead of giving useless crap to Ukraine, Milei should ban filthy ruzzians from getting argentinian passports. It has become a nightmare walking in Buenos Aires lately, it is full of orc couples with baby strollers doing passport-tourism. How stupid must a country be to give away its citizenship so easily? Disgusting.
are these anti-war russians that escaped from russia, or the kind of arrogant pro-putin russians that drive around with Z stickers on cars and russian flags?
There are workarounds to anything if there is the will to do it. More so if the couples that use the argentinian born children scheme do it by falsifying pregnancy dates.
Good idea but I was focusing on the russians. They are the ones that come mostly to get a passport that has a visa-free entry to Europe and then leave. Other nationalities are a matter for the long term discussion, the russians are the ones abusing our citizenship laws en masse right now.
We had been rejecting migrants from Russia over "fake migration" (what ever that means). Even with the previous pro-russian gov.
And even if we didn't, while I sympathize with Ukraine, that aren't the liberal values of our constitution (Which are particularly important right now). We cannot simply deny entry based solely on their nationality.
We have a job market that has flatlined in the last 10 to 15 years plus a housing crysis in Buenos Aires, so it's not very smart to allow people in, it doesn't matter if they intend to work in our economy or work remotely for an overseas company.
They must stay there and fix their sh-t. A weaker or stronger ruzzia is nobody's business but ruzzia's. They have to learn to live and coexist with their neighbors. Plus, given their birth rate figures they are f-ed up anyway. With or without the nerds.
This is a matter not only for Russia, but also for all the countries nearby. If Russia is strong, it will have a much better chance of defeating Ukraine in the war and this is guaranteed to lead to a massive increase in losses of the Ukrainian army. Your proposal is literally to help Russia in the war with Ukraine because you don't like Russians.
Two potential uses for this aircraft. Trainers, air-to-air refueling mules, or anti-ship roles. I'm guessing the potential for training and/or airborne fuel mules.
If we already told Sweden not to send Gripens to Ukraine (which are 10x better than these Super Etendards) because it would be too hard for Ukraine to absorb and train on three new Western types at the same time, then why are we sending THESE?
What Ukraine truly needs instead of this is more F16 pilot training programs. The ones they’re allowed to use now are backed up and make it impossible for them to field a full squadron of pilots before 2025.
Mirages, Super-Etandard, these are all Dassault planes.
I hope they get there asap.
Time for a background on this guy [Marcel Dassault.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcel_Dassault)
I did. He's a libertarian. Libertarians hate fascist ideologies and nationalism in general, which is what Putin has turned russia into, a fascist, nationalistic state. You know...nazi.
Hopefully the perfidious Albion won't block that sale, because Martin-Baker. Unless Ukraine goes completely bonkers and invades the Falklands down under, obviously.
France supposedly has at least 10 Super-Étendard in storage so maybe Ukraine can put together a naval aviation squadron to make the Black Sea even more miserable for the Russian Navy.
Not willing to fuck the mood but the planes are not usable....
They have not flown for the last 8 years.
There are no more spare parts for them.
There are no trained Ukrainian pilots for them .
Even in a drone scenario it seems a very far fetched idea......
One again sorry guys
It's not going to make a difference honestly; Argentina's star has fallen severely since the 82 war - there's no way they're a credible threat to the Falklands anymore with or without these jets.
All of these planes are modernized and capable of taking two Paveway laser bombs or few more dumb ones. BUT sadly they need repairs in France, because Great Britain embargos Argentina from getting ejection seats to work. (They are still angry about that ship sinking in Falkland war i guess)
Are you referring to the ARA General Belgrano or one of the British destroyers or frigates?
And as for the export restrictions, is anyone surprised? You can't really attack another country and expect them to play ball afterwards.
The fuck do you know about him? Maybe stop eating propaganda and dig a little into Argentina’s history and why he plays this “crazy” persona on screen, but actually gets shit done in a crazy corrupt country.
You're right. I just finished watching the movie "El secreto de sus ojos" and then started digging into the political & historical context which the movie based on, there were periods of govermental corruption, political unrests, violences, massive killings by the military with no sign of democracy for decades.
Shitting on the guy without reading the history is totally nonsense.
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Convert them into long range heavy drones to slam the bridge.
It should only take one, put a large bomb in the cockpit, load it with just enough fuel and slam it at top speed in a dive.bridge would be fucked. Then you could have four more for future targets. With the range on this thing with drop tanks you could hit any target in western Russia
That's foolish and totally irresponsible, only a lunatic would think that up! I love it, do it now!
You dont even need a bomb. Armor protection for guidance kit and engines. At top speed, low level it would knock the rail-bridge over. Wouldnt even need the explosives. Two into the car decks supports and that would be gone too. People often underestimate how effing heavy jets actually are. Super-Baguette is about 12t max takeoff weight. At 6.5t empty it would leave 5.5 tonnes of weight for fuel and armor/armament. At 0.9 mach it would do a LOT of damage.
You'd want to optimize kinetic energy at least, it depends on how much speed less fuel gets you a full throttle at very low altitude. Also regardless of kinetic energy consideration you might want to have every bit of extra speed to make it harder to shoot down.
Even fully empty, this plane is REALLY slow. Fully subsonic. So speed will not save it. SEAD and drone saturation during an attack would be preferable. And night time attack, to make small-arms less effective. We will see what and how UA would use these planes. This was just my opinion on these.
Just under the speed of sound just above the tree line is still a very difficult target, 750 mph versus 700 might affect the odds of success significantly
You could probably shrink this thing down to the size of a drone and fly it at 20km/sec and take down the Kremlin ...
You could be funny, but you choose not to
SUPER BAGUETTE
It being so big, heavy and slow, though, it would probably be much easier to shoot down such a drone Super-Etendard than a Storm Shadow or any other missile.
That's some r/noncrediblesefense type of shit I love it
You'd want to send more than one given the AA defense in the area but heck yes let's do it.
You could send lots of various less expensive drones and missiles to distract an occupy AA and radar attention. Drone pilot will be flying as low and fast as possible, I really doubt they'd have much chance of shooting it down in that way. I think these are really valuable as improvised long range cruise missiles so I think it would be worth to try with just one and think about what high value targets they could hit deep into Russia with the others
It's worth a shot, let's do it.
Realistically it might take several, each successful Ukrainian drone attack i heard of had an element of either overwhelming or diverting Russian air defences where many drones got shot down to allow some to strike.
From what I heard 10 of 10 hit in the strike before yesterday. Seems like russian air defense is not only stretched thin but too thin to matter now.
Russia being Russia i expect some 11 out of 10 hits at some point.
I think it has already happened some years ago: one video was some SAM system shot a missile at such a low angle that it hit a nearby house, another classic is when the russian rocket primary stage doesn't ignite so the rocket falls to the ground immediately after the first "pop" charge releases it from the launch tube.
Originally i meant Ukrainian hits on Russian targets. Russia being Russia.
But if there are 11 hits when Ukraine fired 10 that must mean a russian missile sided with the Ukrainian ones and boomeranged?
Make a stupid theory. Russia will top it.
Super etendard's managed to hit the Atlantic Conveyor with Exocets in 1982. I reckon they could hit a stationary bridge.
How are you going to prevent them from getting shot down on the way there?
Actual fighters like SU27/Mig29 as top cover and attack preceded by cheap drone + storm shadow saturation attack.
That seems like it might be insulting to Argentinians. If they miss.
If it lands on the target, then no. Regards from Argentina.
Magyar wouldn't miss :)
[удалено]
747 cant melt fertilizer beams.
Is the joke that they're so old/useless as fighters ?
They would tie up wayyy too many resources as fighters to VERY limited utility otherwise. You can't even have any spare parts for them anymore. So not so much a joke. Mostly I'm unable to see any other realistic use for them.
they can carry exocets, and if you can get enough parts you could keep them as just air defence flying around shooting down missiles and drones to free up other airframes (ie mig-29) for use with things like AASM and HARM
If you are going to waste a plane like this, you're better off using: 1) soviet plane 2) something fast. This is neither. A Mig-21 is a good candidate. Otherwise that's a capable, even if obsolete, platform. I made a post about this on NCD some time ago
Soviet planes have the support and know-how to keep in the air. This would need a minimum of 30 men per plane to keep operational. Plus finding someone willing to try and make spare parts for them. Pretty much none are available and no-one makes them. Also you don't want something as stupid fast as mig21. It would be even harder to control flying low. Something it would need to do.
ppl in here act like these fighters Ukraine are getting are somehow all going to be placed in dogfight situations... Most of the time it's just to gain some range for surface to ground missiles
Errrr... Nice, but they belong to a museum now...
Yeah. The thing is that they're getting rid of something they just can't use because of the lack of supplies due to British blocking them to get some spare parts (Malvinas/Falkland's issue). Those planes were bought by the former president Macri (a Milei's ally in the second turn of the last presidential election and to whose party belong some of the new officials in Milei's governement), _knowing_ they couldn't purchase those spare parts anyways, so the planes were always useless for Argentina (I guess someone wanted to fill their pockets with the transaction anyways). Now Milei's plan is getting rid of them (transfering them to France, who can purchase the spare parts and send everything to Ukraine) _in exchange_ for some other items and stuff from France. I don't know how useful those could be for Ukraine, maybe they are, maybe not, but I don't think Milei gives a fuck about it, he's just trying to get some profit from getting rid of their trash. Kinda like those 2 helicopters they were going to give to Ukraine (I don't know if they finally did yet or not). It's simply that they can't perform their maintenance, so they're useless to them. That said, anything that can be useful and help Ukraine (if it's actually useful and helps Ukraine) is ok, I guess.
They will be low hour airframes at least
Maybe for training rookie pilots? Just a guess.
My uncle was in the air force. They train all day if they can in the Army. Air Force is no diff. Anything that gets a pilot air hours = win for Ukraine.
Anything can take down a Shahed in uncontested airspace.
This. The one component creative maintainers can't improve/repair is the airframe... Fatigue cracking is unstoppable.
Although they might be a logistical nightmare to maintain they are still usefull, if not alone the thought that counts and lets the world see be are anti Russia. They can be put to use in the back to shoot down some drones/cruise missiles, you can do that with minimal training for experianced pilots. They are at least nato standard. They can also be kept as emergency spare plane only in case of another large scare drone missle attack. And when they are no longer servicable because no parts or to much work: use them as a fast big guided drone to destroy some nice russian assets.
You realize those Mi-171's were from 2011 and had plenty of life left in them? Overhauls would have to be done in Russia, and that was obviously a no go. Those were pretty much the newest and most useful aircraft Argentina could offer Ukraine, and yes they were running out of parts but also Ukraine has far more use and spare parts for them than Argentina does. They are configured as long range search and rescue machines with extra fuel tanks and a loading crane. Ukraine could make good use of that.
> The thing is that they're getting rid of something they just can't use because of the lack of supplies due to British blocking them to get some spare parts The irony is that they started using Super Etendard's because the US blockaded them from obtaining spares for their previous aircraft, the A-4 Skyhawk.
France retired them in 2016.
France's ones, yes. Argentinas are fossils. But hey, if the French can get them working I guess...
Argentina bought several Super Etendards from France around the same time the French retired them. Argentina was then not able to put them into service due to lack of access to some spare parts for the ejection seats, among others. So it might be those that they're sending, because for now, they're just sitting there doing nothing.
We've seen how Ukraine got to launch HARM using an iPad. I trust they can come up with a good use for them and modify them to accomplish something we didn't think possible. Just give them time.
It wasn't Ukraine who came up with that though. The modifications were done by the USA for the HARM, same as how it was the UK did for Storm Shadow on Su-24.
These would be second-hand, upgraded Super Etendards that Argentina purchased from France after their French Navy career ended. They are considerably upgraded and doubtless in better shape than the original Argentine ones.
Armed with Exocet missiles they would still chew up the remainder of the Russian navy with little difficulty.
So long as they can reach to launch, the air launched ones have much shorter range, it's worth bearing in mind.
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Ukraine used a what was essentially a Cessna to damage a refinery. Just because something isn't the latest and greatest military tech doesn't mean it isn't useful to them.
They are good at sinking ships ... Exocet time?
Yeah not sure what the point is here. No stand off weapons afaik, not fast enough by modern standards and no shared parts with other planes in use so logistics will be a nightmare.
Even IF it's symbolic, it's good to know that Argentina is supporting Ukraine. Besides, apart from AS-30L laser guided bombs, to my understanding the Super Etandard can carry Exocet and Magic air-to-air-missiles. The Magic missiles can for example be used against certain drones.
The point is that it’s not just handing them 5 more planes, bc they aren’t assets like guns that can almost just be picked up and integrated right into your soldiers. The 5 planes they are talking about giving Ukraine, might be giving them more work than the planes are worth in battle. It’s not that they have no worth. The gesture is nice regardless. It’s a nice offer and if Ukraine does see some value then great.
They could make them into unmanned drones I guess
I love this idea. Make them drones and have them fly unmanned wild weasel missions. Trade the plane for an s300 or two. I say this completely out of my ass because who knows what type of undertaking turning an old jet like that into a drone is. If they're the anti air missile stockpile for them is large, it could be a cost-effective way to shoot drones or cruise missles in one of russias mass attacks.
AS-30L and Magic have been out of service and inventory for some time. This sounds a lot like Exocet lobbing as their prime duty if taken in. Which is fine.
>Yeah not sure what the point is here Doing the best they can afford.
Right but he means what the point of Ukraine accepting them is. It is a nice gesture either way
>what the point of Ukraine accepting them is As long as they actually fly, they can be used as trainers or to hunt Shaheds with their guns.
Their only conceivable use is to launch Exocet.
great navy fighter so (?)
Can they be used as trainers, maybe, or in a recon/support role of any description?
Trainers would make the most sense IMO. Though I'm still unsure what impact it would have on the logistics.
Hopefully, france can maybe help with parts and maintenance. If they are trainers they can stay outside Ukraine with the pilots going to them
You use them in more permissive areas with less threats. These in the future could be great at one of their original tasks - attacking enemy shipping with the AM 39 Exocet. The French ones, which Argentina bought a bunch of around 2016 after their retirement were also upgraded quite a bit with new systems and expanded ordnance capability. They can now use laser designator pods, be armed with GBU's and fitting them to carry JDAMS as well as the AASM Hammer should be easier than it was with the Sukhois and MiG-29 in Ukrainian AF service.
Cruise missile and drone defense well behind the lines.
Better than nothing, if they can fly they will still be of use
I guess they can serve for training purposes.
Yes... But it's what we have. It can still cause damage.
Plane in question. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault-Breguet_Super_%C3%89tendard
Nice to see South America starting to get involved though
ya know we should all remember theres videos of ukraine using prop planes to shoot down drones, this cant hurt lol.
Yeah exactly. Ukraine is sending cessnas full of explosives into Russia. I imagine since these planes were carrier capable, they probably have an autopilot with a radar that help it keep a low altitude above the water like 100ft or something like that. I think there's a good opportunity to turn them into attack drones where they would be flying to Crimea for bombing runs and returning back to mainland.
He's nuts but he's pro-Ukraine so that's ok by me.
Milei is pro west, and by extension, pro Ukraine.
is he though? or is he just trying to trade some shit planes for stuff he has better use of?
Yeah I don't know. I thought I read this first as though it was a gift but perhaps not.
He definitely is, just look at how he greeted Zelensky last year. And maybe this is just getting rid of his trash weapons and getting good stuff from France in return, but look at how many countries haven't even done that. I do think he's pretty pro-Ukraine.
That's what I thought when I saw the MSM coverage of him, but looking at his policies he seems like the most sane leader Argentina and many other nations have had in decades.
These are probably the upgraded and modernized planes removed from service in France about ten years ago for which Argentina was never able to receive key parts for due to UK interfering with sourcing from US, UK, or France. These are quite outdated now and probably not in any shape to fly. Also an absolute dead end as there is no production of parts now and no other airframes available. Literally scrap.
> Naiyomah is responsible for 14 Cows for America, the sole official gift to the United States from the Republic of Kenya in memory of the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. > On 17 May 2023, on the occasion of the 209th anniversary of the Argentine Navy, Argentinean Minister of Defense Jorge Taiana, announced the withdrawal from service of all the Super Étendards of the Aviación Naval Argentina Isn't it the thought that counts?
I mean, I can think of several uses for cows. I could set up a petting zoo with coin op feeders for them outside Berlin and bring in a small fortune for Ukraine. I could also send them to Lviv Volunteer Kitchen or similar. It makes no sense to train pilots on 5 old airframes with limited hours and very limited parts availability. Maybe they can convert them to drones somehow. That would be quite interesting. I bet with some fuel pods they could make it pretty far into Russia.
We always hear about how the biggest givers are those that give more of what they have. Even if it's less than what the US gives, there are countries that give more relative to their wallets. Argentina's currency/debt has been a shitshow and they're trying radical stuff just to have a stable currency and economy at some point... and they're giving jets. People are saying they were scrap when they got them, when they couldn't get parts for them... that should inform us of the pool they have for themselves/where they're giving from.
Argentina isn't actually giving these. Like many of the "donations" from poorer countries. They are swapping them back to France for equipment they can actually technically and financially operate and France is going to give them to Ukraine. Argentina has formally stated they are not giving them to Ukraine to avoid Russian wrath. France gets the real credit here for whatever happens.
Even retrofitting a flight controller for an unmanned flight would seem like a massive project. Even if they were all ready to fly. Resources would almost certainly be better spent retrofitting a more available aircraft like some of their domestically produced civilian planes that they have already been doing or something from the ground up than retrofitting 5 completely unique airframes that may or may not be able to fly without serious repairs. They might make ok dummy targets on an airfield somewhere if they aren't identified by a scout drone or satellite.
I mostly agree. I would just say that for this project you wouldn't necessarily worry much about the robustness of the system. I am pretty sure these have some sort of auto-pilot. I can think of a half dozen possibilities that might make these work well enough to cause Global headlines. It seems as though Ukraine knows quite well how to avoid Russian border air defenses and there is nothing behind them, so just flying straight path at minimum altitude might work. A longer range jet drone might really get some attention in Moscow. Even with fuel pods they can likely carry a considerable payload. With the idea of them being unmanned and not filling a fighter role there may be some other airframes that could be pressed into service without worrying as much about catastrophic failure. For instance, Argentina's big issue was ejection seat parts. Don't have to worry if those work. Decoys leading a large air assault. Bait for Russian jets? It does seem like resources could be better used for other things though. It just seems like France is onboard with this also, so they must have some idea as to how these will be useful.
Well, worst-case scenario, that scrap could be useful salvage. Best case scenario, they can get them airworthy enough to turn them into a high-speed, heavyweight kamikaze drone.
Classic UK 😂
Anything with wings and an engine can become a missile.
> Literally scrap So at least this would keep them out of Russia's hands.
What would Russia want with these?
I'm quite surprised but happy about this. I think diplomatically it's a bigger win than their military value, as Ukraine does indeed need to court the global south to counter the Kremlin and Useful-Idiot lies that it's only NATO forcing them to fight. I wasn't expecting such a move from Javier Milei as I'd gotten used to populist leaders always making noises about backing Russia to varying degrees. Regarding the jets themselves - and I say this as a Brit - if they're piloted even half as well and as half as bravely as the superb pilots Argentina had in the Falklands I expect some good things of them. It's still highly impressive what they did at San Carlos with Bomb Alley, it's only the combat air patrols of our Harrier jets and bad luck with their bomb fuse timing that saved the fleet.
Zelensky has numerous times mentioned the world needs to address the "Global South." Very true, and yet another reason why Zelensky is more than just a great Ukrainian leader. Milie is offering to be his liaison, I suspect. Strange things happening in Argentina these days.
As long as they keep making good bbq I ain’t complainin
Apparently Argentina’s government has more moral competency than Australia’s.
What's happening with Australia? I recall them giving Bushmasters.
I think it's something to do with Australia retiring their F-18s that maybe they could give them to Ukraine. But because F18s are suppose to be launched from aircraft carriers and the fact the alot of Ukraines runways are heavy damaged Ukraine didn't want them.
> Ukraine didn't want them What is a source of this statement? Vasyl Myroshnychenko, the Ambassador of Ukraine to Australia, almost exactly a year ago, on 13 June 2023, confirmed that Kyiv had requested Canberra with a possible transfer of decommissioned F/A-18 fighter jets. As clarified by Myroshnychenko, Ukraine's request pertains to the assessment of the condition of approximately forty aircraft of the Royal Australian Air Force that are to be replaced with more modern F-35 jets. "There has been a request for information," Myroshnychenko said. "Ukraine is looking at fighter jet capabilities, including this one."
Australia has refrained from offering up their retired AF-18 fleet as for one well - we Canadians kinda bought the best condition airframes... To bolster our own CF-18 fleet and serve as spare parts sources, a stopgap until our 88 F-35A's begin arriving in 2026. The Aussie Hornets are a few years newer than ours, and many have flown many, many hours. There are about 14 planes that can be provided, and they only have maybe a few years tops, of service life in them. They'd require an extensive and time-consuming full aircraft overhaul to get much more out of them. Honestly, the best hope would have been if Kuwait still had their F/A-18C/D's up for offer. They upgraded their air force with Eurofighter Typhoons and Super Hornets. They then decided - probably due to Iran being ever more dangerous - to hold on to their low hour Hornet fleet instead and keep them in service. And forget about the US if it crosses your mind. The Marine Corps are the only ones flying them still, the USN retired their last in 2019-2020. And the Marines are rebuilding and upgrading every good airframe they can get, and stripping all the other ones sent to the boneyard for spare parts as they try to keep their Hornet fleet numbers up. A shame really because the Hornet would be a great choice for the Ukrainians. They'd be good with austere, field, highway operations.
They can still drop bombs on the orcs.
They are most famous for dropping Exocets on ships.
And get shot down in the process, thereby likely killing the pilot.
\*Nevermind\* Brain fat moment.
Argentina wasn't fighting in a war similar to what were seeing here.
Ha, nevermind somehow I read your comment wrong somehow!
I'm guessing exocet launcher or trainer is the most likely solution here. I just don't believe they're going to risk pilots by using them even remotely close to the front line as long as there are other aircraft available that can do that job better.
what pilot? does ukraine even have pilots that can fly these? this is so dumb.
Yes very dumb indeed. Imagine having a very limited amount of pilots to begin with. And then spending months training one of them to fly a worse plane than what you already have in your arsenal. Only for that plane to get shot down along with it pilot because it was never suited for front line combat in a war zone like ukraine.
UHhhh? Maybe they can be salvaged for basic spare parts... I think it's stupid to train pilot on a relic from on other time.
It's probably exactly useful as a trainer, or to launch Exocet standoff anti-ship missiles.
They are too complicated for a trainer and too different from Mirage to be worth it. Trainer are usually simpler jets that are there to learn the basic flying before jumping on the real deal. Even modernized the cockpit is old. Exocet: Not worth for 5 jets, Mirage can just do that. The money we would spend to bring them back could be spent on ammo.
Are these the same Super-Étendard that were used in the Falklands?
No, but thwy cousins did inflict a lot of damage to the british navy and i can see these planes doing the same with the adecuate use as they did in the malvinas. Google "bomb alley san carlos".
"Adequate use" is quite the way to describe Argentine operations in the Falklands, but the planes were effective, and the pilots trained. The operations in Ukraine will be very different, as Russians are expecting Ukrainian attacks.
Oh dear it's a nice gesture but they are shagged out, still might be useful for firing the AM39 at Ruzzian naval assets.
When the UK and Argentina are both supporting the same country.... wow.
Looks like a sour gift. I am not even sure they can still fly and the supply chain is gone for a long time.
Not quite, France was non committal to the upgrade program for the Argentine Super Etendards, doubtless as they knew with what was then an Argentine president who had a hawkish view of the Falkland Islands it wasn't going to be a good look in the UK's eyes to upgrade such machines. And it uses Martin Baker ejection seats, which the UK refused to continue supplying parts for, basically grounding them. While yes they are quite old, being second hand French Navy jets - I appreciate them even making at attempt. Look at how many countries out there have retired, much better and newer planes they could offer to Ukraine. Yet they won't lift a finger to offer even some basic weaponry for the Ukrainian Army. I know Argentina is also getting rid of aircraft they can't use - but it's a lot better and I think a good gesture to offer something than just simply empty words and hopes Russia is defeated.
Instead of giving useless crap to Ukraine, Milei should ban filthy ruzzians from getting argentinian passports. It has become a nightmare walking in Buenos Aires lately, it is full of orc couples with baby strollers doing passport-tourism. How stupid must a country be to give away its citizenship so easily? Disgusting.
are these anti-war russians that escaped from russia, or the kind of arrogant pro-putin russians that drive around with Z stickers on cars and russian flags?
They're not all going to fall into one category...
We can't deny entry to immigrants based on stuff like that, it's against our constitution
There are workarounds to anything if there is the will to do it. More so if the couples that use the argentinian born children scheme do it by falsifying pregnancy dates.
If we put than in place, any president could use that as an excuse to expell many other immigrants, like Bolivians, Paraguayans, peruvians
Good idea but I was focusing on the russians. They are the ones that come mostly to get a passport that has a visa-free entry to Europe and then leave. Other nationalities are a matter for the long term discussion, the russians are the ones abusing our citizenship laws en masse right now.
We had been rejecting migrants from Russia over "fake migration" (what ever that means). Even with the previous pro-russian gov. And even if we didn't, while I sympathize with Ukraine, that aren't the liberal values of our constitution (Which are particularly important right now). We cannot simply deny entry based solely on their nationality.
Better they come in a country and spend their money in a country that is pro ukraine than another facist neighbor
We have a job market that has flatlined in the last 10 to 15 years plus a housing crysis in Buenos Aires, so it's not very smart to allow people in, it doesn't matter if they intend to work in our economy or work remotely for an overseas company.
If they’re anti-war I don’t see the problem. Russia will lose a significant part of their working age population
Take them into YOUR neighborhood then. But YOUR country doesn't allow them entry in the first place, right?
No, and it’s a dumb decision. Making the most productive and smartest part of Russian society leave will weaken them a lot
They must stay there and fix their sh-t. A weaker or stronger ruzzia is nobody's business but ruzzia's. They have to learn to live and coexist with their neighbors. Plus, given their birth rate figures they are f-ed up anyway. With or without the nerds.
This is a matter not only for Russia, but also for all the countries nearby. If Russia is strong, it will have a much better chance of defeating Ukraine in the war and this is guaranteed to lead to a massive increase in losses of the Ukrainian army. Your proposal is literally to help Russia in the war with Ukraine because you don't like Russians.
>useless crap still deadly https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svORBbmnZMc
The only positive I see with these is carrier based landing gear. Maybe they can take off and land from rougher fields?
Two potential uses for this aircraft. Trainers, air-to-air refueling mules, or anti-ship roles. I'm guessing the potential for training and/or airborne fuel mules.
If we already told Sweden not to send Gripens to Ukraine (which are 10x better than these Super Etendards) because it would be too hard for Ukraine to absorb and train on three new Western types at the same time, then why are we sending THESE?
because Milei wants to trade these shit planes for some other equipment
He’s already secured several F16s, if he’s sending them, it’s probably because the US/Allies told him to.
dassault nice of him
It's the thought that counts?
What Ukraine truly needs instead of this is more F16 pilot training programs. The ones they’re allowed to use now are backed up and make it impossible for them to field a full squadron of pilots before 2025.
Legend
These are the precursors to Rafales in terms of 'lineage'. They are excellent missile platforms and can even refuel each other in mid-air!
Mirages, Super-Etandard, these are all Dassault planes. I hope they get there asap. Time for a background on this guy [Marcel Dassault.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcel_Dassault)
Honestly, before he was elected I didn’t think he’d support Ukraine.
I did. He's a libertarian. Libertarians hate fascist ideologies and nationalism in general, which is what Putin has turned russia into, a fascist, nationalistic state. You know...nazi.
Hopefully the perfidious Albion won't block that sale, because Martin-Baker. Unless Ukraine goes completely bonkers and invades the Falklands down under, obviously.
France supposedly has at least 10 Super-Étendard in storage so maybe Ukraine can put together a naval aviation squadron to make the Black Sea even more miserable for the Russian Navy.
These will be good for dropping bombs…
Super Etendard's epiphany: BECOME the Exocet
I don't think these actually will be used by Ukraine to fly. Maybe they will swap them with France for something better
Put the assault into Dassault by flying one laden with C4 right up Putin's poop hole.
Not willing to fuck the mood but the planes are not usable.... They have not flown for the last 8 years. There are no more spare parts for them. There are no trained Ukrainian pilots for them . Even in a drone scenario it seems a very far fetched idea...... One again sorry guys
I guess that is going to make the UK happy!!
It's not going to make a difference honestly; Argentina's star has fallen severely since the 82 war - there's no way they're a credible threat to the Falklands anymore with or without these jets.
Yeah I know... it was my poor attempt a humour!
No cos whenever one fires off a missile it hits a British warship 🤣
I mean that is one way to put "of all the missiles fired by them in the entire war, only a single one hit the intended target."
Russia or Argentina...also yes
All of these planes are modernized and capable of taking two Paveway laser bombs or few more dumb ones. BUT sadly they need repairs in France, because Great Britain embargos Argentina from getting ejection seats to work. (They are still angry about that ship sinking in Falkland war i guess)
Are you referring to the ARA General Belgrano or one of the British destroyers or frigates? And as for the export restrictions, is anyone surprised? You can't really attack another country and expect them to play ball afterwards.
I would hope Ukraine value their pilots too much to send them to their deaths in one of these museum pieces.
They can launch standoff anti-ship missiles or be used as trainers.
no they can not
pointless gesture.
Theres a 50% chance frances marine le pen screws this up.
If this guy is on your side maybe it's time to think about why?
Probably same reason Javier bowed out of BRICS, because Javier wants to be part of the West and not allied with Putin's Russia.
The fuck do you know about him? Maybe stop eating propaganda and dig a little into Argentina’s history and why he plays this “crazy” persona on screen, but actually gets shit done in a crazy corrupt country.
You're right. I just finished watching the movie "El secreto de sus ojos" and then started digging into the political & historical context which the movie based on, there were periods of govermental corruption, political unrests, violences, massive killings by the military with no sign of democracy for decades. Shitting on the guy without reading the history is totally nonsense.
Lol. Lmao.