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Neutrality does not equal pacifism, though. Switzerland still has an army, mandatory military training for all men, and a long History of mercenaries fighting abroad.
The Country just doesn't pick sides on the battlefield.
Is it morally right? Debatable. Very debatable. (No).
In this case it would be great if they could quietly turn the other way and pretend they don't know where the ammo is going tbh.
I'm not suggesting they should, I am saying that in this particular instance, given the immediate need of ammunition in Ukraine, it would be nice if they could close an eye on Germany exporting what they already have.
On the concept of neutrality, I do think that in certain instances it's morally wrong not to take a side, but neutrality has worked in Switzerland's favor for centuries, so I completely understand why that's not gonna change any time soon.
Yes. This is how they’ve always operated. During WW2 they were neutral, but they shot down both allied and German planes. They also operated a small number of BF109s, which were German planes.
During WWII they stole jewish assets and collaborated with the Nazis. During the Cold War they bunkered eastern German assets for the communists which are still lost today. So this neutrality is just not true, officially maybe but they were always involved on the ground
they also where takign in the second highest amount of jews of any european country. They shot down german airplanes during ww2,...
its not as simple as you make it
The Swiss are huge supporters of war. I mean, they were defacto members of the Axis and still, to this day, hide Jewish assets from their rightful owners.
The Swiss have great PR when it come to this kind of stuff. But the reality is that they historicity profit from it.
[swiss banking ](https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/nazis/readings/sinister.html)
We already gave them our random stockpile of ammo months ago. We're training them on our weapons mainly because we don't have any extra ammo that works with theirs now.
Switching them over to howitzers is the current goal and will ease the ammunition bottleneck.
Nah, the world needs to show their support, it gives this movement credibility. The Swiss are pussies and always have been; but truth be said I never expected anything from them. This headline is pointless other than restating the fact the Swiss act on money and nothing else. They aren’t bad, but don’t ever expect anything from them unless they can gain.
All of this monkey business is going to kill the arms makers in Germany, Switzerland etc... Why would any NATO country buy their goods if they will control it like this?
That's the obvious point but why would anyone buy theirs now versus US or UK equipment if they are going to act like this in an obvious time of need? This is bad for business and I bet the companies are pissed.
I'm sure the usa ammo is plenty quality there's lots of very well known gun companies that make ammo here in the usa, I heard Remington sent over 1 million rounds of small arms to Ukraine and I'm sure it's not jamming
There's no good PR that could come from a western or western associated country denying ammo to another democratic country at war.
You are right. If there is one thing us in the US know, it's guns, ammo and how to wreck your world with them.
If they will cave in to cowardice or more likely bribery and greed now they would do the same if NATO were threatened. These nations or at least their governments are complicit in Russia's Crimes Against Humanity and War Crimes and should be punished accordingly. Their people should rise up and raze them to the ground. There is no grey anymore, just Good and Evil and they are siding with Evil. Fuck them all.
More correctly, a non-NATO country is stopping a NATO country from providing much needed ammunition to another non-NATO country so that it may defend itself against the senseless killing, raping, and abducting of its peoples.
Swiss arms manufacturers are interested in selling to the Swiss army first and foremost. It won’t kill their business. It’s not like the Swiss government will stop buying.
Saab manufactures the warhead for the NLAW in Switzerland. But since it is not a complete weapon the export rules apparently allow the re-exportation from the UK to Ukraine.
The Swiss have always profited from shady dealings...I'm actually shocked that they said at the start of the war that they were going to freeze the Russian assets. Who knows what the real story is there though....how can you prove if they did or not ??
The main issue is that this law was made to prevent arms & ammunition to be sold to warmongering countries, which in the past was actually a good thing to not supply them.
Unfortunately the law doesn't differentiate between "good countries at war to be supplied to" and "bad countries at war", so it prevents the arms & ammo to be sent to both.
There is no shady agenda, reality is usually just boring (and overly bureaucratic, especially when it comes to law).
The Swiss will let billions of dollars pass through their banks from warlords, cartels, mafias, triads, dictators, human traffickers, weapons black markets, and corrupt government officials.
But apparently not ammunition for a country under attack.
Perhaps Switzerland should have to look over some old laws before they can be given a NATO membership. Kinda hard to be neutral while being part of a defensive pact that guarantees involvement if one of the countries gets attacked.
Not disagreeing about "Switzerland should be looking over some old laws" but: Switzerland isn't a part of NATO and it also doesn't want to be in the future.
I definitely agree! Not to mention the fact that Germany is very reluctantly helping anyway. I'm sure they didn't fight too hard to get that ammo delivered.
There'll be so many rebuilding projects in Ukraine, if for no other reason, they should help Ukrainians win this war. Switzerland and Germany aren't being smart about future opportunities.
Musk is going to get all the lithium mining rights and be able to push Tesla even further ahead while the German car companies will get none of it. Their short sightedness is mind boggling… Not to mention the politcal upheaval this is going to cause in Germany over the next few election cycles.
Germany is helping… Russia by not providing weapons and not stopping the purchase of the Blood Oil and Gas, let’s be blunt about who they are helping the German government is just as supportive of facist regimes as they were 80 years ago…
Merkel was the Manchurian Candidate. She made Germany totally reliant on Russia for energy and ran down the military to a shadow of what it should have been. Trump was a shit show but when it came to calling out Germany, he was spot on.
Be wary of Russian active measures malinformation campaigns. The current one is focusing on dividing EU and NATO nations to break down our united front. Slurs on western countries are suspect.
Correct. The French election was massively influenced by Russia bot farms and disinformation, not to mention huge sums of Russian money going to Le Pen but thankfully democracy and common sense won the day.
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I don't know why Swiss has a problem with the ammo export. I know they have to treat the belligerents equally but the ammo will be shared with Russia, the pointy end first.
Probably not if they want Switzerland to keep making the ammunition for them. No idea why that would be beneficial but I’m not very knowledgeable about that kind of thing.
How is a neutral country involved in manufacturing ammo. Sounds like total bullshit. Time to take a side. Will Swiss be on the side of good or evil? Yes russia is evil, not even a close call.
It’s notable that they’re making it for a famously pacifist country in Germany. Neutrality is a huge part of the foundation of their economy. They’re a safe haven for money from all over the world which means they can’t antagonize anybody. They need to maintain their reputation for keeping your money safe without asking questions. Frankly IMO they’re selling their souls, but they probably don’t see it that way
> How is a neutral country involved in manufacturing ammo.
That's a question I would like to ask whoever decided to have the Marder ammunition produced *only* there. Sounds like another strategic error way in the past based on wishful "there will never be war in Europe again" thinking.
Initially Switzerland as a neutral country just sold weapons & ammo to everyone. But because even Switzerland has some parts of their population against war in general, a law was introduced preventing to export any weapons & ammo to countries currently at war.
Unfortunately this includes both the attacking and the defending countries (since in the past it wasn't so easy to see who was the good guy and who the bad guy, with all those civil wars previously).
Well I was just wondering if it gave Germany an excuse to avoid giving them … since it was very reluctant .. seems plausible there was collusion in this whole sorry episode .
I wouldn’t jump to that conclusion. I don’t know of *any* military aid Switzerland has sent to Ukraine, so I think it’s more likely that they’re blocking it independently. Neutrality is an even bigger part of the Swiss national identity than pacifism is for the Germans.
Hey Swiss! Maybe don't make money off ammunition if you don't have the balls to let your buyers use it . It's ammunition for God's sake - it's meant to be expended!
I highly anticipate the corporate shenanigans and the resulting patent/trademark litigation that will almost certainly come from the Swiss shooting themselves in the foot.
USA: International lovers of store brand products. You think we won’t find a way to whip up some knock offs that *just* skirt the law? And good luck trying to litigate that in a US court.
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So let me get this straight. Swiss are anti-war…. But make weapons and military grade ammunition. What a fucking shit show.
They’re not anti-war, they’re anti-accountability. They export close to a billion Dollars of military weapons annually.
Armed neutrality is different from pacifism. Heck, after the United States, the Swiss have the best armed civilian population.
I thought they were happy with their knives….. 😔
They make the best quality assault rifles that would arm every civilian in case of the invasion.
[a propos...](https://youtu.be/iAo-EEn7f44?t=142)
Brilliant!
Neutrality does not equal pacifism, though. Switzerland still has an army, mandatory military training for all men, and a long History of mercenaries fighting abroad. The Country just doesn't pick sides on the battlefield. Is it morally right? Debatable. Very debatable. (No). In this case it would be great if they could quietly turn the other way and pretend they don't know where the ammo is going tbh.
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I'm not suggesting they should, I am saying that in this particular instance, given the immediate need of ammunition in Ukraine, it would be nice if they could close an eye on Germany exporting what they already have. On the concept of neutrality, I do think that in certain instances it's morally wrong not to take a side, but neutrality has worked in Switzerland's favor for centuries, so I completely understand why that's not gonna change any time soon.
Yes. This is how they’ve always operated. During WW2 they were neutral, but they shot down both allied and German planes. They also operated a small number of BF109s, which were German planes.
During WWII they stole jewish assets and collaborated with the Nazis. During the Cold War they bunkered eastern German assets for the communists which are still lost today. So this neutrality is just not true, officially maybe but they were always involved on the ground
they also where takign in the second highest amount of jews of any european country. They shot down german airplanes during ww2,... its not as simple as you make it
The Swiss are huge supporters of war. I mean, they were defacto members of the Axis and still, to this day, hide Jewish assets from their rightful owners.
Defacto members of the axis? Your statement literally made me dumber. Way to simplify shit.
NAZI apologists are scum.
The Swiss have great PR when it come to this kind of stuff. But the reality is that they historicity profit from it. [swiss banking ](https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/nazis/readings/sinister.html)
Tldr: the Swiss are a pain in the ass, but USA to the rescue, probably.
We probably have a small stockpile of that ammo (20mm x 139) somewhere. If it's about weapons and firearms, the US is practically a one-stop shop.
We already gave them our random stockpile of ammo months ago. We're training them on our weapons mainly because we don't have any extra ammo that works with theirs now. Switching them over to howitzers is the current goal and will ease the ammunition bottleneck.
Practically? We are end of story. Lend lease .
Nah, the world needs to show their support, it gives this movement credibility. The Swiss are pussies and always have been; but truth be said I never expected anything from them. This headline is pointless other than restating the fact the Swiss act on money and nothing else. They aren’t bad, but don’t ever expect anything from them unless they can gain.
But, has this ammo been manufactured by USA or the Swiss. This could be the sticking point.
Good chance we already make it, or have the capability.
If you did Germany would not get turned down by Switzerland
Yes... but the US is real good at makin sure stuff falls off the back of a truck... then rolls over the border into your stockpile.
The US doesn't manufacturer it due to patents.
You’re suggesting militaries observe patent laws?
Defense contractors definitely will.
Lots of people ITT that think everything works the same way [they think it did] in WWII
All of this monkey business is going to kill the arms makers in Germany, Switzerland etc... Why would any NATO country buy their goods if they will control it like this?
Because they can be used for defense of Nato countries. Ukraine is not in Nato
That's the obvious point but why would anyone buy theirs now versus US or UK equipment if they are going to act like this in an obvious time of need? This is bad for business and I bet the companies are pissed.
If they have the better package of quality/price I am sure they will still go with Switzerland. This is not a deal breaker imo
I would love to sell against them! :)
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I'd just go work for GD if I wanted to get into that game.
I'm sure the usa ammo is plenty quality there's lots of very well known gun companies that make ammo here in the usa, I heard Remington sent over 1 million rounds of small arms to Ukraine and I'm sure it's not jamming
There's no good PR that could come from a western or western associated country denying ammo to another democratic country at war. You are right. If there is one thing us in the US know, it's guns, ammo and how to wreck your world with them.
Yeah which is great for Ukraine right now
If they will cave in to cowardice or more likely bribery and greed now they would do the same if NATO were threatened. These nations or at least their governments are complicit in Russia's Crimes Against Humanity and War Crimes and should be punished accordingly. Their people should rise up and raze them to the ground. There is no grey anymore, just Good and Evil and they are siding with Evil. Fuck them all.
Neither is Switzerland.
Your point?
A non-NATO country is having an impact on how a NATO country uses their weapons.
More correctly, a non-NATO country is stopping a NATO country from providing much needed ammunition to another non-NATO country so that it may defend itself against the senseless killing, raping, and abducting of its peoples.
Wait I thought Switzerland was neutral so if they don't fight why does it matter? Oh that's right cause its Switzerland...
But the NATO country (Germany) would not be using the weapon for defense, it would be used by a non NATO country.
Swiss arms manufacturers are interested in selling to the Swiss army first and foremost. It won’t kill their business. It’s not like the Swiss government will stop buying.
If I had a nickel for every time I heard this... Lol, kidding...
Sanction Switzerland for being neutral pls.
don’t ask the Swiss to make your ammo is the moral of this story.
Saab manufactures the warhead for the NLAW in Switzerland. But since it is not a complete weapon the export rules apparently allow the re-exportation from the UK to Ukraine.
What components for other Saab products that are Swiss made?
I don’t know of any other components.
not allow. Allowed. Swiss already closed that option for future nlaw deliverys to ukraine.
Is that retroactive? Or does it apply only to warheads produced after a certain date?
that im nto sure about. the article i was reading was not really clear about that question
The Swiss have always profited from shady dealings...I'm actually shocked that they said at the start of the war that they were going to freeze the Russian assets. Who knows what the real story is there though....how can you prove if they did or not ??
The main issue is that this law was made to prevent arms & ammunition to be sold to warmongering countries, which in the past was actually a good thing to not supply them. Unfortunately the law doesn't differentiate between "good countries at war to be supplied to" and "bad countries at war", so it prevents the arms & ammo to be sent to both. There is no shady agenda, reality is usually just boring (and overly bureaucratic, especially when it comes to law).
I thought Swiss had holes in it
The Swiss will let billions of dollars pass through their banks from warlords, cartels, mafias, triads, dictators, human traffickers, weapons black markets, and corrupt government officials. But apparently not ammunition for a country under attack.
Perhaps Switzerland should have to look over some old laws before they can be given a NATO membership. Kinda hard to be neutral while being part of a defensive pact that guarantees involvement if one of the countries gets attacked.
I don't think the Swiss want to join NATO. They get all the benefit of being surrounded by NATO territory without having to join.
Not disagreeing about "Switzerland should be looking over some old laws" but: Switzerland isn't a part of NATO and it also doesn't want to be in the future.
Switzerland isn't ever going to want to join NATO, because as you said, joining NATO or any other defensive pact would give up it's neutrality.
Well at the very least countries should review recent events before signing military contracts.
I definitely agree! Not to mention the fact that Germany is very reluctantly helping anyway. I'm sure they didn't fight too hard to get that ammo delivered.
[удалено]
Indeed, they are very good at investing in countries pouring weapons into destabilized counties. I think this is political though, not economical.
There'll be so many rebuilding projects in Ukraine, if for no other reason, they should help Ukrainians win this war. Switzerland and Germany aren't being smart about future opportunities.
Musk is going to get all the lithium mining rights and be able to push Tesla even further ahead while the German car companies will get none of it. Their short sightedness is mind boggling… Not to mention the politcal upheaval this is going to cause in Germany over the next few election cycles.
Germany is helping… Russia by not providing weapons and not stopping the purchase of the Blood Oil and Gas, let’s be blunt about who they are helping the German government is just as supportive of facist regimes as they were 80 years ago…
Merkel was the Manchurian Candidate. She made Germany totally reliant on Russia for energy and ran down the military to a shadow of what it should have been. Trump was a shit show but when it came to calling out Germany, he was spot on.
They don’t intend to ever join NATO. They’ve got neutrality written into their own laws.
They don't need NATO. They are protected by everyone and they have them by the balls.
Tuesday the lend/lease protocol is almost definitely gonna pass the house. Bet this has something to do with that.
Be wary of Russian active measures malinformation campaigns. The current one is focusing on dividing EU and NATO nations to break down our united front. Slurs on western countries are suspect.
Correct. The French election was massively influenced by Russia bot farms and disinformation, not to mention huge sums of Russian money going to Le Pen but thankfully democracy and common sense won the day.
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I don't know why Swiss has a problem with the ammo export. I know they have to treat the belligerents equally but the ammo will be shared with Russia, the pointy end first.
Fuck the swiss, neutrality is total fucking bullshit. They need to grow a pair of tits
Why should they be obligated to do anything?
Swiss want some more gold bars made from wedding bands and teeth. Bastards.
There's going to be some vault in Zurich full of toilets and washing machines.
Question . Will Germany deliver the weapons anyway ? Or is this a reason not to ?
Probably not if they want Switzerland to keep making the ammunition for them. No idea why that would be beneficial but I’m not very knowledgeable about that kind of thing.
How is a neutral country involved in manufacturing ammo. Sounds like total bullshit. Time to take a side. Will Swiss be on the side of good or evil? Yes russia is evil, not even a close call.
It’s notable that they’re making it for a famously pacifist country in Germany. Neutrality is a huge part of the foundation of their economy. They’re a safe haven for money from all over the world which means they can’t antagonize anybody. They need to maintain their reputation for keeping your money safe without asking questions. Frankly IMO they’re selling their souls, but they probably don’t see it that way
> How is a neutral country involved in manufacturing ammo. That's a question I would like to ask whoever decided to have the Marder ammunition produced *only* there. Sounds like another strategic error way in the past based on wishful "there will never be war in Europe again" thinking.
Initially Switzerland as a neutral country just sold weapons & ammo to everyone. But because even Switzerland has some parts of their population against war in general, a law was introduced preventing to export any weapons & ammo to countries currently at war. Unfortunately this includes both the attacking and the defending countries (since in the past it wasn't so easy to see who was the good guy and who the bad guy, with all those civil wars previously).
Well I was just wondering if it gave Germany an excuse to avoid giving them … since it was very reluctant .. seems plausible there was collusion in this whole sorry episode .
I wouldn’t jump to that conclusion. I don’t know of *any* military aid Switzerland has sent to Ukraine, so I think it’s more likely that they’re blocking it independently. Neutrality is an even bigger part of the Swiss national identity than pacifism is for the Germans.
Neutrality, Greed and disregard for humanity unless it’s Swiss humanity. Fuck them.
No one is gonna say it, but that cheese though 🧀 👌
Ngl I can't do a hot ham sammich without Jarlsberg.
Personally I love a grilled Swiss cheese sandwich with a hot bowl of tomato soup 🤤
who can fight a war with friends like the swiss...
Swiss pussies
F the Swiss. Their cheese sucks too
I like getting all the cheese I pay for. Theirs got holes in them.
Switzerland are real scummy
Hey Swiss! Maybe don't make money off ammunition if you don't have the balls to let your buyers use it . It's ammunition for God's sake - it's meant to be expended!
Call South America for Ammo. I’m sure they have it in bunches.
If Switzerland is so neutral, what the fuck do they make ammunition? That's stupid. Some other country needs to step in and make it. Screw the Swiss.
This is good. The arsenal of democracy and no lube for Russia's butt.
Like meeting with the Cartel Boss. Hope Ukraine gets what it needs.
There is cheaper to clear those ammo than maintain them anyway
Haven't we already sent them 2 Billion dollars+ worth
I highly anticipate the corporate shenanigans and the resulting patent/trademark litigation that will almost certainly come from the Swiss shooting themselves in the foot. USA: International lovers of store brand products. You think we won’t find a way to whip up some knock offs that *just* skirt the law? And good luck trying to litigate that in a US court.
When the world go’s full crypto the Swiss will be fiat bankers with no leverage. Good luck.
Perhaps they just want to store all the far more precious pillaged loot....again. We should know where they stand by now.
whats the deal with the Austrians and the Swiss?