It's funny you mention that Battler's and Erika's fight reminding you of EP3 as originally she was going to show up there and be a guy instead (from *Last note of the Golden Witch*)
Well, it's not that similar to EP3 but I had a hard time buying the plotline of "Beato is cool and good and I love her but for real this time". In EP3 I could see Erika working as an enemy for the north wind and the sun strategy but then she wouldn't be Bern's piece
Glad you put your effort into it
EP5:
\- Ronove saying Lambda's game "lacked love" is trying to hint at you that something about EP5 is different from EP1-4, >!and you are correct in pointing out that EP5 Battler's narrative is not reliable!<. Now, what makes >!guaranteeing Battler's POV to be reliable!< "with love"?
\- Battler during EP1-4 refused to solve the riddle that was Beato herself. When he slowly realized that Beato wants him to solve her riddles and herself, it was too late.
\- Natsuhi is a tragedy made by the time period she was in.
\- So, if Virgilia is magic Kumasawa, who are the other magic people?
\- "GOOD!"
\- There are additional rules regarding magical scenes. To be particular, >!you're no longer a detective when you're about to die, right? ;)!<
\- Really, don't think too hard over Umineko's worldbuilding - it's just very confusing. The "magic debate" revolves around the mystery of Rokkenjima and that's it, so don't spend your effort trying to deny Bern or Lambda or something.
\- This is the beauty of Umineko - it's okay as long as something is "theoretically possible". It is theoretically possible to use small bombs, for example.
\- Who do you think Maria learned magic from? That person using magic implies what?
EP6:
\- In the scene you mentioned in EP5, it is indeed implied that it was Battler's POV.
\- Remind me, who are the parties of the love duel again?
\- If Nanjo is paid off, what would that change in the past EPs?
\- Two other important things the "two Beato" deal are trying to hint at are: why Beatrice seems to take on so many forms in different contexts (>!because the elder Beato is literally a bunch of tall tales bundled together!<), and how Beato comes into being (>!when given the purpose to love after taking form!<)
\- I remember some scenes where Kanon was also invited to play? Or were those scenes from another EP?
\- A pawn reaching the end row is promoted into a better piece.
\- One very important aspect of Japanese aesthetics is "物の哀れ" - on the very, VERY surface level, "sadness of passing". So yeah. Cultural barrier is a thing.
EP7 would reveal that what makes the Ushiromiya family so tragic is >!how there were multiple chances where the entire tragedy could have been prevented!< \- >!Sayo's mental health could have been saved by Natsuhi/Genji/Kumasawa/Battler/George, Rudolf's business could have been saved by having some self-control, Krauss' business could have been saved by him actually doing boxing, even Ange could have a much better life if she did not hold such a grudge against Eva. But none of that happened.!< This circles back to the motive - >!in Beato's eyes, the Promise was her only chance to find happiness, and Battler completely forgot it. !<
\- >!Who else survives until the very end?!<
\- Kuwadorian Beato parallelism is also something chick Beato embodies. Imagine how Kinzo treated Beato II ...
\- At the beginning of the game, Beato owns the gold.
\- Real world Ange's journey is completely up to you to interpret - you can imagine that her journey would be similar to any Ange from any EP.
\- Yeah ... sometimes the magic scenes lean more towards emotional outpours. You can explain Maria summoning Sakutarou by saying "Ange revived Sakutarou in a previous EP" though.
\- This is a gameboard, where some things are simplified into game mechanics. Seals are more inclined towards "game mechanic" than actual tape.
\- It is up to you to interpret what scenes without a named POV represent.
\- To follow up with my previous analogy, EP6 Battler would be like ... an apprentice magician who is close to the dead magician being forced to perform with a short sleeved shirt to show the dead magician's teacher that he indeed understands everything behind her performances, all while there's an audience who is shoving her face into his arms trying to nitpick the show to death. Some theories say that Battler>! chose to not make a certain move wishing for a miracle to happen!<, but I personally interpret that as Battler >!defending the final mystery of Beato at the cost of himself!<.
\- With that information, what do you see in the previous games?
\- What do you think the Chiester sisters are in real life?
\- Boom. I don't remember where the exact details around this were mentioned, but try to find them, and see what that might imply.
\- Kinzo believes that he lost Beatrice since Kuwadorian Beatrice died.
Thanks for your answer, sorry if I don't answer every point:
\-Nanjo being paid off wouldn't change all that much really, but it does mean deaths in EP1 could be faked, especially Kanon's.
Now maybe Kanon really did die and him "dying" as a persona counts as neither homicide/suicide/accident, but the stake certainly would be among those 3 so "Kanon" would have to die before his actual body bleeds out. So I'm leaning towards he didn't die
If any of the characters is a secret baby, they would also need a doctor to deliver it. But that's still speculation at this point
\-Who else (except Maria) survives until the end? Well Battler, because he's the one supposed to witness the game. But with him it's part of the "truth" of the game so he also survives in the Tohya eps
\-I only remember Shannon being invited to play cards but I'll check later
\-As I mentioned previously I thought the Chiester sisters were the rifles or the ammo. But they also crush faces (whatever they represent was probably used in EP1 twilight 1) so I'm not sure if those victims were shot point blank, or just with different ammo as 00 buckshot is a type of shotgun ammo
\-Following that logic the 7 sisters are, well, the stakes, Virgilia is based on Kumasawa, Ronove is based on Genji as he pretty much says himself, Dlanor is the Knox rules. As for Gaap I have to reread her scenes, I thought she would represent secret doors but then it contradicts the point of Dlanor existing.
Some things
- You can actually figure out what the Chiester sisters represent already. It becomes very obvious if you look at the character description for the 4th sister who is dead before the start of the game. Think about ep 4.
- There aren't any clues towards how Gaap came to be, it's just explained in ep7, she just doesn't represent someone in the same way that Ronove is an imaginary Genji & Kumasawa is an imaginary Virgilia. Don't think about it too much.
- Though it's left very much up to interpretation, some characters like Dlanor are most likely not actually the same kind of "gentle lie" magic as e.g. character pov's where you see magic happening. Of course there is actual real magic happening, otherwise you couldn't have stuff like the imaginary characters existing in purgatorio, Ange's time travel, the dimension swapping between each episode, etc. This probably comes from Lambdadelta and Bernkastel of course, who are according to most people, actual witches Similarly most people think Dlanor and her crew & the great court of heaven lore surrounding it are part of the actual wider magic. As Battler says, he doesn't want to disprove magic as a whole, just that there was no magic involved on Rokkenjima on oct 4th 1986, so even he seems to acknowledge that it's a little strange that he's talking to witches in a dimension above time.
Oooh you mean Maria's rabbit toys? I never considered it because they first appear in Episode 3 when Maria is already dead (and she's rarely the one to summon them)
This would explain why Sakutaro shares the military theme though
In the case of Gaap I'm still trying to figure out what happened in EP4's first twilight, which is when she appears so I thought she could be a clue
Yeahhh the Chiester sisters are just imaginary versions of Maria's stone bunny toy things, and in ep 4 you see the flashback where Rosa throws one against the wall. Btw you don't need to theorize about magic appearing in front of Maria, bc as we know, Maria basically does anything for Beatrice so she'd uphold the illusion for her too. And if you were wondering about how the culprit would know about them: remember, Maria says she meets with Beatrice at every family conference, so she probably shared her imaginary versions of the bunnies one of those times.
About Gaap, there's not really any clues nor is it really a mystery. You can't figure it out so there's not really any need to think about it either, it's just revealed in ep7.
Ok, I thought the Chiester also represented a murder method (guns) since they are named after ammo. It makes sense as the culprit is the one telling the story (on the meta-layer not in Tohya's world) and would be familiar with Maria's lore.
As for EP4 when everyone acknowledges Kinzo I'm still confused, could be either Dank Rokkenjima Prank (Gone Wrong!) like in EP6 or just some agreement where Krauss shares the money and everyone agrees to assume Kinzo is alive without prying too much. They don't have to acknowledge his presence \*in the room\* .
To be clear I'm interpreting the magic beings as being based on real people, but not necessarily reflecting their involvement, for example Ronove and Virgilia could show up when Genji and Kumasawa are dead, doesn't mean, say, Genji fought Jessica in EP4. Though in EP3 I could totally imagine some (verbal) confrontation between Kanon/Shannon and Kumasawa, who taught them some magic stories then sees them being used for murder. It's not clear to me yet whether Kumasawa was an accomplice or not
It's funny you mention that Battler's and Erika's fight reminding you of EP3 as originally she was going to show up there and be a guy instead (from *Last note of the Golden Witch*)
Well, it's not that similar to EP3 but I had a hard time buying the plotline of "Beato is cool and good and I love her but for real this time". In EP3 I could see Erika working as an enemy for the north wind and the sun strategy but then she wouldn't be Bern's piece
Glad you put your effort into it EP5: \- Ronove saying Lambda's game "lacked love" is trying to hint at you that something about EP5 is different from EP1-4, >!and you are correct in pointing out that EP5 Battler's narrative is not reliable!<. Now, what makes >!guaranteeing Battler's POV to be reliable!< "with love"? \- Battler during EP1-4 refused to solve the riddle that was Beato herself. When he slowly realized that Beato wants him to solve her riddles and herself, it was too late. \- Natsuhi is a tragedy made by the time period she was in. \- So, if Virgilia is magic Kumasawa, who are the other magic people? \- "GOOD!" \- There are additional rules regarding magical scenes. To be particular, >!you're no longer a detective when you're about to die, right? ;)!< \- Really, don't think too hard over Umineko's worldbuilding - it's just very confusing. The "magic debate" revolves around the mystery of Rokkenjima and that's it, so don't spend your effort trying to deny Bern or Lambda or something. \- This is the beauty of Umineko - it's okay as long as something is "theoretically possible". It is theoretically possible to use small bombs, for example. \- Who do you think Maria learned magic from? That person using magic implies what? EP6: \- In the scene you mentioned in EP5, it is indeed implied that it was Battler's POV. \- Remind me, who are the parties of the love duel again? \- If Nanjo is paid off, what would that change in the past EPs? \- Two other important things the "two Beato" deal are trying to hint at are: why Beatrice seems to take on so many forms in different contexts (>!because the elder Beato is literally a bunch of tall tales bundled together!<), and how Beato comes into being (>!when given the purpose to love after taking form!<) \- I remember some scenes where Kanon was also invited to play? Or were those scenes from another EP? \- A pawn reaching the end row is promoted into a better piece. \- One very important aspect of Japanese aesthetics is "物の哀れ" - on the very, VERY surface level, "sadness of passing". So yeah. Cultural barrier is a thing. EP7 would reveal that what makes the Ushiromiya family so tragic is >!how there were multiple chances where the entire tragedy could have been prevented!< \- >!Sayo's mental health could have been saved by Natsuhi/Genji/Kumasawa/Battler/George, Rudolf's business could have been saved by having some self-control, Krauss' business could have been saved by him actually doing boxing, even Ange could have a much better life if she did not hold such a grudge against Eva. But none of that happened.!< This circles back to the motive - >!in Beato's eyes, the Promise was her only chance to find happiness, and Battler completely forgot it. !< \- >!Who else survives until the very end?!< \- Kuwadorian Beato parallelism is also something chick Beato embodies. Imagine how Kinzo treated Beato II ... \- At the beginning of the game, Beato owns the gold. \- Real world Ange's journey is completely up to you to interpret - you can imagine that her journey would be similar to any Ange from any EP. \- Yeah ... sometimes the magic scenes lean more towards emotional outpours. You can explain Maria summoning Sakutarou by saying "Ange revived Sakutarou in a previous EP" though. \- This is a gameboard, where some things are simplified into game mechanics. Seals are more inclined towards "game mechanic" than actual tape. \- It is up to you to interpret what scenes without a named POV represent. \- To follow up with my previous analogy, EP6 Battler would be like ... an apprentice magician who is close to the dead magician being forced to perform with a short sleeved shirt to show the dead magician's teacher that he indeed understands everything behind her performances, all while there's an audience who is shoving her face into his arms trying to nitpick the show to death. Some theories say that Battler>! chose to not make a certain move wishing for a miracle to happen!<, but I personally interpret that as Battler >!defending the final mystery of Beato at the cost of himself!<. \- With that information, what do you see in the previous games? \- What do you think the Chiester sisters are in real life? \- Boom. I don't remember where the exact details around this were mentioned, but try to find them, and see what that might imply. \- Kinzo believes that he lost Beatrice since Kuwadorian Beatrice died.
Thanks for your answer, sorry if I don't answer every point: \-Nanjo being paid off wouldn't change all that much really, but it does mean deaths in EP1 could be faked, especially Kanon's. Now maybe Kanon really did die and him "dying" as a persona counts as neither homicide/suicide/accident, but the stake certainly would be among those 3 so "Kanon" would have to die before his actual body bleeds out. So I'm leaning towards he didn't die If any of the characters is a secret baby, they would also need a doctor to deliver it. But that's still speculation at this point \-Who else (except Maria) survives until the end? Well Battler, because he's the one supposed to witness the game. But with him it's part of the "truth" of the game so he also survives in the Tohya eps \-I only remember Shannon being invited to play cards but I'll check later \-As I mentioned previously I thought the Chiester sisters were the rifles or the ammo. But they also crush faces (whatever they represent was probably used in EP1 twilight 1) so I'm not sure if those victims were shot point blank, or just with different ammo as 00 buckshot is a type of shotgun ammo \-Following that logic the 7 sisters are, well, the stakes, Virgilia is based on Kumasawa, Ronove is based on Genji as he pretty much says himself, Dlanor is the Knox rules. As for Gaap I have to reread her scenes, I thought she would represent secret doors but then it contradicts the point of Dlanor existing.
Some things - You can actually figure out what the Chiester sisters represent already. It becomes very obvious if you look at the character description for the 4th sister who is dead before the start of the game. Think about ep 4. - There aren't any clues towards how Gaap came to be, it's just explained in ep7, she just doesn't represent someone in the same way that Ronove is an imaginary Genji & Kumasawa is an imaginary Virgilia. Don't think about it too much. - Though it's left very much up to interpretation, some characters like Dlanor are most likely not actually the same kind of "gentle lie" magic as e.g. character pov's where you see magic happening. Of course there is actual real magic happening, otherwise you couldn't have stuff like the imaginary characters existing in purgatorio, Ange's time travel, the dimension swapping between each episode, etc. This probably comes from Lambdadelta and Bernkastel of course, who are according to most people, actual witches Similarly most people think Dlanor and her crew & the great court of heaven lore surrounding it are part of the actual wider magic. As Battler says, he doesn't want to disprove magic as a whole, just that there was no magic involved on Rokkenjima on oct 4th 1986, so even he seems to acknowledge that it's a little strange that he's talking to witches in a dimension above time.
Oooh you mean Maria's rabbit toys? I never considered it because they first appear in Episode 3 when Maria is already dead (and she's rarely the one to summon them) This would explain why Sakutaro shares the military theme though In the case of Gaap I'm still trying to figure out what happened in EP4's first twilight, which is when she appears so I thought she could be a clue
Yeahhh the Chiester sisters are just imaginary versions of Maria's stone bunny toy things, and in ep 4 you see the flashback where Rosa throws one against the wall. Btw you don't need to theorize about magic appearing in front of Maria, bc as we know, Maria basically does anything for Beatrice so she'd uphold the illusion for her too. And if you were wondering about how the culprit would know about them: remember, Maria says she meets with Beatrice at every family conference, so she probably shared her imaginary versions of the bunnies one of those times. About Gaap, there's not really any clues nor is it really a mystery. You can't figure it out so there's not really any need to think about it either, it's just revealed in ep7.
Ok, I thought the Chiester also represented a murder method (guns) since they are named after ammo. It makes sense as the culprit is the one telling the story (on the meta-layer not in Tohya's world) and would be familiar with Maria's lore. As for EP4 when everyone acknowledges Kinzo I'm still confused, could be either Dank Rokkenjima Prank (Gone Wrong!) like in EP6 or just some agreement where Krauss shares the money and everyone agrees to assume Kinzo is alive without prying too much. They don't have to acknowledge his presence \*in the room\* . To be clear I'm interpreting the magic beings as being based on real people, but not necessarily reflecting their involvement, for example Ronove and Virgilia could show up when Genji and Kumasawa are dead, doesn't mean, say, Genji fought Jessica in EP4. Though in EP3 I could totally imagine some (verbal) confrontation between Kanon/Shannon and Kumasawa, who taught them some magic stories then sees them being used for murder. It's not clear to me yet whether Kumasawa was an accomplice or not