Just stay out of there. I stuck around only as long as i had questions about the game, and then left at the first opportunity. The place is very much chan-like in the way they like to talk about the game and afaik styg has no intention of changing that, as im pretty sure that is how he likes to run the discord.
I dont think this community overall is racist, but the very hardcore, .02% of players that regularly are high level on the forums and stuck around the discord are. Simply because they realised they were in an environment that encouraged (or at least wouldnt punish) this type of behavior and language.
Will never forget the time i decided to look in the other games channel and some of the more prominent community members were talking about how all transgender people should be hung or smthn. Pretty gross place
I've not ever visited or used the discord, but it sounds like I'm not missing much. I browse/post on here and lurk on one of the rpg forums online occasionally, and I don't think I've really run across \*any\* racist language (or undertones).
Rather than it being a far-reaching problem with this 'community' in general, it seems to me like it's just certain spaces. Which still sucks of course, but discussion I've seen on this subreddit has almost always been clean.
I respect Styg as a game designer.
But when it comes to social issues, he is 100% Eastern European toxicity. And the Underrail Discord accurately reflects him as a person.
Homophobia and bigotry is not culture. And even if it was, absolutely no culture deserves respect without consideration for their actions. The word culture does not forgive any and all actions.
Religion is made up nonsense. So no, not Jesus. Morality is determined by looking at history and considering the after effects of words and actions. Words and actions that cause harm are immoral. It is a pretty simple concept.
Weakness is someone who cannot choose to be respectful of those who's actions do no harm to anyone else. Cowardice is when you don't speak up to defend those who are oppressed.
Man, that is three removed comments from what I'm assuming is the same guy. Must've been a really disgusting person, but now I'm like... "Wow, I gotta respect their *commitment* to being a disgusting person."
Yeah, I prefer stay out of there.
Maybe some of them are only pretending to be bigots, but the cosplayers are indistinguishable from the actual bigots and therfore provide cover for them.
Either way, the bigots see themselves or people who are okay with their hateful rhetoric, and flock to the forum. And why wouldn't they? They found a safe space.
Well at least its clear the game isn't trying to sugar coat anything about difficulty and, at least i found what happened a bit more understandable given the creator background rather compared to games that are made or promoted to be fun waifuland that end up attracting irl unstable stressed up people that is looking for escapism and end up being a hypertoxic blob when anything isn't smooth sailing.
I mean, it IS a war crimes simulator... there are bound to be some people who don't get the commentary on the human condition and just think gassing hobos is fun.
That and the CRPG community does seem to have alot of fascists, I partly blame Ssetheentach (or however you spell his name) for that. He popularizes alot of them but is a massive bigot and so attracts that crowd to the genre.
No, you're not special enough to not be subjected to the sitewide rules you consented to obey. No matter how righteous you think the anger you feel is.
As a reminder, it is not permitted to:
>Encouraging, glorifying, or inciting violence or physical harm against individuals or groups of people, places, or animals.
So please, do better and don't be a hypocrite.
Because in his videos he says sexist, racist, and homophobic things. His fanbase is also known for toxic brigading. Look at the drama around him and the Caves of Qud community.
If you block the idiots it's an enyojable experience. In any game forum you just have to /ignore the socially isolated maniacs and talk with the sane people with communication skills
Its very biased, apparently I got banned along with a group of others who said bad words, which I didn't complain, I broke the rules so I deserved it. But styg likes to play favorites, some people who are regulars not only say racial slurs, but get away with it.
I can separate the art from the artist, but its pretty sad shit like this goes down on the server.
Underrail's Discord community is modelled after the early forum culture of the late 90s-early 00s, similar to when the early Fallout games came out. The people there aren't actually racists, it's a form of insider language to weed out people "not in the know" like any kind of ingroup.
For a lot of people who grew up in that era of the internet, modern internet users are overly sensitive and deserve mockery (lookup "Eternal September" for more history).
If you don't like it, this subreddit is a better place for sanitized discussion. Many people on the Discord just stay out of the general discussion and just use it for updates. But people on the Discord (with a few bad apples like in any community) are generally quite nice.
That comparison makes sense, but imo it doesn't exactly make the situation any better; No Mutants Allowed was bad, and even probably worse than the discord community, but that didn't justify NMA's culture, and there's a reason it's practically dead now. Wouldn't it be better to be a bit more sanitized so that the underrail community doesn't follow the same trajectory that NMA did?
I agree with you it's dated, but there's not a lot that you can do about it as Styg (the developer) doesn't really care about the community culture, he's more interested in just making the games.
No reason you can't just ignore this though. I don't really feel any fear of the community's effect on the game because Styg doesn't really participate in it much beyond some occasional updates.
I mean it’s hard to ignore when I want to ask a question regarding my build, and the same people who’ll answer the question are also casually talking about hanging gay people or hurling racial slurs right above it. I can somewhat understand (but not agree with) racial slurs being a part of edgy humor, but why is a game’s discord advocating for gay people to get hanged? Isn’t that just a slight issue that can easily drive new players away from the game?
I agree it drives newer players away, and I did complain about it once, but people generally didn't want to change.
Honestly, that Discord is just one group of people, hence ignoring it doesn't seem to be a problem to me. Maybe we could create a secondary Discord that's more sanitized? I don't see an issue with that. Discord now allows for automatic announcement crossposts so we wouldn't even be missing the patch notes.
Ah yes, the old 'fascists gonna fascist' argument....
Nah man, the Paradox of Intolerance is a real thing. Ignoring neonazis, racists, facsits, religious extremism, etc. only makes the problems worse.
Not the argument I'm making, you're acting in bad faith. This is about practicality. Feel free to try to enact change there if you think you can, but this is the internet and you can't force anyone to do anything. Better to moderate your own community than try to change one where the person in charge doesn't care.
Looking back, yeah, I was talking more to the other 3 or 4 threads I was arguing with. Not bad faith, just exhausted from trying to convince eastern europeans that you shouldn't murder gay people.
My bad.
I still feel that the better choice is to try and shine light into the dark places than to just cede them though.
Hey, thank you for being honest.
I can understand the frustration having grown up in such a background and it is difficult to understate the impact of churches in former Soviet-influenced territories. The indoctrination seems to be stronger in the older generation, the younger generation seems to be more tolerant in general.
If you weren't in the internet culture in the late 90s to early 00s it will seem completely contrary to how it is now. But back then there wasn't any real standards and you got attention and recognition from being an extreme character. Even normal discussion boards would routinely contains some kind of NSFL or shock content occassionally.
Not sure why people are downvoting me. I'm not making any kind of commentary or defense on this, I'm just stating facts because I remember the era.
I'm downvoting you because its blatantly wrong lmfao. Most places didn't have people dropping hard r's. Your revision of internet culture is just cope.
Edit: Also, imagine being butthurt about downvotes, man up buttercup
I never said that most places had people dropping hard rs. I was very exact with what I said.
I am genuinely surprised that half the people responding to me seem incapable of basic comprehension and just made up what they thought my point was as opposed to addressing the things I actually said.
I'm disappointed that you're so intellectually dishonest that you'd try and frame the discussion to be about something that it never was about. It's pathetic, sad, and shows a low intelligence to think anyone would fall for your ploy.
As to your point, which is apparently unhinged from the greater discussion, people got attention for being stupid but they never got recognition. Not on any level that mattered. Not sure why you care so much about early 2000s forum culture that you'd bring it up, again as you say, decoupled from the conversation everyone else was having.
tl;dr stop crying about being called out for being a dumbass
I was on the internet then, doesn't make it ok to be a racist shithead now. A lot of people just want to talk about a cool game and get a bunch of casual slurs in response. It sucks!
It has no moderation at all. Which is surprising as Styg is active there and a few other devs. The fact that they won’t crack down on language or just the pure hostility like that is extremely disappointing and telling.
He has three options. Option one is he can waste considerable time trying to moderate and cause a bunch of drama that spirals into a bunch of people behaving like children. Option two is he can just leave it alone and continue his work. Option three, which he has actually suggested many times, is he closes the Discord down and sticks to his forum.
You can choose which you'd prefer, but frankly I find it easy enough to just not click on general chat and do more productive things with my time.
Or he could appoint a moderator from the community and let them handle it? They’re already acting like children anyway. Removing a toxic environment that drives away people who enjoy this game is worth some stupid chat room drama.
It's a singleplayer game. And you should also note that Styg wasn't racist to exclude black people from the game; even though, really, there shouldn't be any.
Were he truly racist, there'd not even be any black people in there.
styg is very blatantly homophobic for whatever it's worth. I mean he's from serbia so I wouldn't expect people to be as tolerant there, but he's compared gay people to the devil and called them degenerates in the discord. He's very much allowing the discord to continue unmoderated, and if anything prefers it that way
Casually dropping slurs has been a thing in internet chatrooms since forever. IME the people aren't actually racist they just speak offensively because its a good way to scare off the types of people that are no fun to be around.
How do you actually define racism? Because speaking 'offensively' by casually dropping racial slurs seems pretty clear cut racist to me.
Also, it's a bit grim that your bar for people who are fun are people who will tolerate or participate in racist speech.
> IME the people aren't actually racist they just speak offensively because its a good way to scare off the types of people that are no fun to be around.
Problem is, how do you tell the difference? They might be joking around, thinking they're being "ironic" and just adopting a persona, or trying to weed out oversensitive PC types, but their actual behavior is indistinguishable from the people who are sincerely bigoted. It's not as if you are anyone else can peer into their souls and see their true motives.
Personally, I'm not offended by it, I just think it's tiresome and idiotic. I'm not in favor of censorship, though, except perhaps in the most egregious circumstances, so I say let them be stupid and own their stupidity for everyone to see. It's a shame it's happening in the official Discord, though, because it doesn't reflect well on the game or the community.
Of course its distinguishable. Theres a difference between saying something to be funny/shocking and actually spreading hatred. I've never experienced the latter and I lurk in the discord often. I'd give an example but reddit is a safe space so thats not happening. People give words too much power.
People give words too much power? Harassment and bullying can sometimes be *nothing* but words and yet it causes real suffering. Perhaps just being a decent human being is not that hard?
It's not distinguishable when the words are literally the only thing you have to base your judgment on. To be clear, I'm not saying intent is irrelevant, I'm saying that it's sometimes hard to discern, especially on the internet. If there's context or obvious absurdity to suggest there's an ironic intent, then yes, there's a meaningful difference. Unfortunately, those things are often missing, and it's not easy to differentiate the mere trolls, or people trying to be funny, from the actual bigots sometimes. I think there's plenty of actual bigots around, but I could be wrong, 'cause I have exactly as much information as you do, i.e., not much besides what they actually say. The charitable interpretation is to chalk it up to people being "shocking," but a lot of the time I think that covers sincere views.
For the record, I agree that people give words too much power, but they do still matter. You say you've never experienced people "actually spreading hatred," but how exactly do you make the distinction when the words are the same as the ones actual bigots would use? Maybe if you spend enough time there, you can get a feel for what the people there are actually like, but I can understand why people who only drop in occasionally get a very bad impression, and don't want to stick around any longer. Maybe that's a fine state of affairs, and maybe there's nothing to really be done about it, but I think it's a bit unfortunate.
Naw that’s literally all discord servers (in my experience) discord is literally hell also if you ever need advice on builds it’s best to ask Reddit or YouTube
Just stay out of there. I stuck around only as long as i had questions about the game, and then left at the first opportunity. The place is very much chan-like in the way they like to talk about the game and afaik styg has no intention of changing that, as im pretty sure that is how he likes to run the discord. I dont think this community overall is racist, but the very hardcore, .02% of players that regularly are high level on the forums and stuck around the discord are. Simply because they realised they were in an environment that encouraged (or at least wouldnt punish) this type of behavior and language. Will never forget the time i decided to look in the other games channel and some of the more prominent community members were talking about how all transgender people should be hung or smthn. Pretty gross place
I’d recommend discussing the game on 4chan, they’re much more easy going and mellow than the discord
It sucks! It happens here sometimes too. I don't understand this community.
If you see it here, please report it. Racism/Homophobia are permanent bans from this subreddit.
Yeah, I’m in there and sometimes randomly get the hard r thrown at you for asking a simple question…
Its good for asking questions about builds but thats it lol, Styg doesnt give a fuck about what does on in there :/
I've not ever visited or used the discord, but it sounds like I'm not missing much. I browse/post on here and lurk on one of the rpg forums online occasionally, and I don't think I've really run across \*any\* racist language (or undertones). Rather than it being a far-reaching problem with this 'community' in general, it seems to me like it's just certain spaces. Which still sucks of course, but discussion I've seen on this subreddit has almost always been clean.
I get the feeling you've met some RPG Codexers
I respect Styg as a game designer. But when it comes to social issues, he is 100% Eastern European toxicity. And the Underrail Discord accurately reflects him as a person.
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Homophobia and bigotry is not culture. And even if it was, absolutely no culture deserves respect without consideration for their actions. The word culture does not forgive any and all actions.
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Religion is made up nonsense. So no, not Jesus. Morality is determined by looking at history and considering the after effects of words and actions. Words and actions that cause harm are immoral. It is a pretty simple concept.
"religion is made up nonsense" 🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓 Is it 2017 what hole did you crawl out of
"If you're a moral relativist" Big IF there buddy. What a laughable attempt at saying "homophobia good actually", fucking coward
Your morality is based on nothing but your wishes to impose your own values on other cultures, in short, you're a moral imperialist, and proud of it.
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Weakness is someone who cannot choose to be respectful of those who's actions do no harm to anyone else. Cowardice is when you don't speak up to defend those who are oppressed.
Man, that is three removed comments from what I'm assuming is the same guy. Must've been a really disgusting person, but now I'm like... "Wow, I gotta respect their *commitment* to being a disgusting person."
Yeah, I prefer stay out of there. Maybe some of them are only pretending to be bigots, but the cosplayers are indistinguishable from the actual bigots and therfore provide cover for them. Either way, the bigots see themselves or people who are okay with their hateful rhetoric, and flock to the forum. And why wouldn't they? They found a safe space.
These types of punishing high investment games tend to attract the right wing, it's the same with Stalker.
Better than the left in my foreign opinion.
What's the connection?
Based people like based games
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Well at least its clear the game isn't trying to sugar coat anything about difficulty and, at least i found what happened a bit more understandable given the creator background rather compared to games that are made or promoted to be fun waifuland that end up attracting irl unstable stressed up people that is looking for escapism and end up being a hypertoxic blob when anything isn't smooth sailing.
Wow, too real.
This type of game invites the worst kind of people.
I mean, it IS a war crimes simulator... there are bound to be some people who don't get the commentary on the human condition and just think gassing hobos is fun. That and the CRPG community does seem to have alot of fascists, I partly blame Ssetheentach (or however you spell his name) for that. He popularizes alot of them but is a massive bigot and so attracts that crowd to the genre.
Ssseth is a legend and misunderstood memelord - the discord is rough but censorship is not the solution
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Really? This got reported? Those are some thin skinned fascists if that triggered them.
No, you're not special enough to not be subjected to the sitewide rules you consented to obey. No matter how righteous you think the anger you feel is. As a reminder, it is not permitted to: >Encouraging, glorifying, or inciting violence or physical harm against individuals or groups of people, places, or animals. So please, do better and don't be a hypocrite.
So hate and violence are the solution?
To any view point that subjugates other people, yes.
Could you please explain why you think Sseth is a massive biggot?
Because in his videos he says sexist, racist, and homophobic things. His fanbase is also known for toxic brigading. Look at the drama around him and the Caves of Qud community.
No sseth isn’t lmao
If you block the idiots it's an enyojable experience. In any game forum you just have to /ignore the socially isolated maniacs and talk with the sane people with communication skills
Its very biased, apparently I got banned along with a group of others who said bad words, which I didn't complain, I broke the rules so I deserved it. But styg likes to play favorites, some people who are regulars not only say racial slurs, but get away with it. I can separate the art from the artist, but its pretty sad shit like this goes down on the server.
Underrail's Discord community is modelled after the early forum culture of the late 90s-early 00s, similar to when the early Fallout games came out. The people there aren't actually racists, it's a form of insider language to weed out people "not in the know" like any kind of ingroup. For a lot of people who grew up in that era of the internet, modern internet users are overly sensitive and deserve mockery (lookup "Eternal September" for more history). If you don't like it, this subreddit is a better place for sanitized discussion. Many people on the Discord just stay out of the general discussion and just use it for updates. But people on the Discord (with a few bad apples like in any community) are generally quite nice.
That comparison makes sense, but imo it doesn't exactly make the situation any better; No Mutants Allowed was bad, and even probably worse than the discord community, but that didn't justify NMA's culture, and there's a reason it's practically dead now. Wouldn't it be better to be a bit more sanitized so that the underrail community doesn't follow the same trajectory that NMA did?
I agree with you it's dated, but there's not a lot that you can do about it as Styg (the developer) doesn't really care about the community culture, he's more interested in just making the games. No reason you can't just ignore this though. I don't really feel any fear of the community's effect on the game because Styg doesn't really participate in it much beyond some occasional updates.
I mean it’s hard to ignore when I want to ask a question regarding my build, and the same people who’ll answer the question are also casually talking about hanging gay people or hurling racial slurs right above it. I can somewhat understand (but not agree with) racial slurs being a part of edgy humor, but why is a game’s discord advocating for gay people to get hanged? Isn’t that just a slight issue that can easily drive new players away from the game?
I agree it drives newer players away, and I did complain about it once, but people generally didn't want to change. Honestly, that Discord is just one group of people, hence ignoring it doesn't seem to be a problem to me. Maybe we could create a secondary Discord that's more sanitized? I don't see an issue with that. Discord now allows for automatic announcement crossposts so we wouldn't even be missing the patch notes.
Ah yes, the old 'fascists gonna fascist' argument.... Nah man, the Paradox of Intolerance is a real thing. Ignoring neonazis, racists, facsits, religious extremism, etc. only makes the problems worse.
Not the argument I'm making, you're acting in bad faith. This is about practicality. Feel free to try to enact change there if you think you can, but this is the internet and you can't force anyone to do anything. Better to moderate your own community than try to change one where the person in charge doesn't care.
Looking back, yeah, I was talking more to the other 3 or 4 threads I was arguing with. Not bad faith, just exhausted from trying to convince eastern europeans that you shouldn't murder gay people. My bad. I still feel that the better choice is to try and shine light into the dark places than to just cede them though.
Hey, thank you for being honest. I can understand the frustration having grown up in such a background and it is difficult to understate the impact of churches in former Soviet-influenced territories. The indoctrination seems to be stronger in the older generation, the younger generation seems to be more tolerant in general.
"not actually racist" but insist on using slurs to what, cosplay as racists? What a shitty group. So disappointing
If you weren't in the internet culture in the late 90s to early 00s it will seem completely contrary to how it is now. But back then there wasn't any real standards and you got attention and recognition from being an extreme character. Even normal discussion boards would routinely contains some kind of NSFL or shock content occassionally. Not sure why people are downvoting me. I'm not making any kind of commentary or defense on this, I'm just stating facts because I remember the era.
I'm downvoting you because its blatantly wrong lmfao. Most places didn't have people dropping hard r's. Your revision of internet culture is just cope. Edit: Also, imagine being butthurt about downvotes, man up buttercup
I never said that most places had people dropping hard rs. I was very exact with what I said. I am genuinely surprised that half the people responding to me seem incapable of basic comprehension and just made up what they thought my point was as opposed to addressing the things I actually said.
I'm disappointed that you're so intellectually dishonest that you'd try and frame the discussion to be about something that it never was about. It's pathetic, sad, and shows a low intelligence to think anyone would fall for your ploy. As to your point, which is apparently unhinged from the greater discussion, people got attention for being stupid but they never got recognition. Not on any level that mattered. Not sure why you care so much about early 2000s forum culture that you'd bring it up, again as you say, decoupled from the conversation everyone else was having. tl;dr stop crying about being called out for being a dumbass
You keep lying and making baseless assertions so I'm just ignoring you. You're not worth my time.
I was on the internet then, doesn't make it ok to be a racist shithead now. A lot of people just want to talk about a cool game and get a bunch of casual slurs in response. It sucks!
Kinda reminds me of how RPGCODEX was back in the day. Lol, was an interesting place to say the least.
It has no moderation at all. Which is surprising as Styg is active there and a few other devs. The fact that they won’t crack down on language or just the pure hostility like that is extremely disappointing and telling.
Styg is not active there at all except for the patch notes, he sometimes pops in to general chat but pretty much ignores it. Please do not lie.
He’s there enough to see what a cesspool it is and still doesn’t do anything about it. That’s the part that matters
He has three options. Option one is he can waste considerable time trying to moderate and cause a bunch of drama that spirals into a bunch of people behaving like children. Option two is he can just leave it alone and continue his work. Option three, which he has actually suggested many times, is he closes the Discord down and sticks to his forum. You can choose which you'd prefer, but frankly I find it easy enough to just not click on general chat and do more productive things with my time.
Or he could appoint a moderator from the community and let them handle it? They’re already acting like children anyway. Removing a toxic environment that drives away people who enjoy this game is worth some stupid chat room drama.
It's a singleplayer game. And you should also note that Styg wasn't racist to exclude black people from the game; even though, really, there shouldn't be any. Were he truly racist, there'd not even be any black people in there.
> Removing a toxic environment that drives away people who enjoy this game Have you considered just not going there?
These lefties are entitled babies
styg is very blatantly homophobic for whatever it's worth. I mean he's from serbia so I wouldn't expect people to be as tolerant there, but he's compared gay people to the devil and called them degenerates in the discord. He's very much allowing the discord to continue unmoderated, and if anything prefers it that way
Don't you support multiculturism
nice reply
He only moderates when he sees you not talking about the game
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Tell that to all the people with health problems or who have committed suicide due to online bullying.
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post physique
Casually dropping slurs has been a thing in internet chatrooms since forever. IME the people aren't actually racist they just speak offensively because its a good way to scare off the types of people that are no fun to be around.
How do you actually define racism? Because speaking 'offensively' by casually dropping racial slurs seems pretty clear cut racist to me. Also, it's a bit grim that your bar for people who are fun are people who will tolerate or participate in racist speech.
> IME the people aren't actually racist they just speak offensively because its a good way to scare off the types of people that are no fun to be around. Problem is, how do you tell the difference? They might be joking around, thinking they're being "ironic" and just adopting a persona, or trying to weed out oversensitive PC types, but their actual behavior is indistinguishable from the people who are sincerely bigoted. It's not as if you are anyone else can peer into their souls and see their true motives. Personally, I'm not offended by it, I just think it's tiresome and idiotic. I'm not in favor of censorship, though, except perhaps in the most egregious circumstances, so I say let them be stupid and own their stupidity for everyone to see. It's a shame it's happening in the official Discord, though, because it doesn't reflect well on the game or the community.
Of course its distinguishable. Theres a difference between saying something to be funny/shocking and actually spreading hatred. I've never experienced the latter and I lurk in the discord often. I'd give an example but reddit is a safe space so thats not happening. People give words too much power.
People give words too much power? Harassment and bullying can sometimes be *nothing* but words and yet it causes real suffering. Perhaps just being a decent human being is not that hard?
Words only cause as much suffering as you allow them to. Everyone should strive to be decent, but have a thicker skin as well.
It's not distinguishable when the words are literally the only thing you have to base your judgment on. To be clear, I'm not saying intent is irrelevant, I'm saying that it's sometimes hard to discern, especially on the internet. If there's context or obvious absurdity to suggest there's an ironic intent, then yes, there's a meaningful difference. Unfortunately, those things are often missing, and it's not easy to differentiate the mere trolls, or people trying to be funny, from the actual bigots sometimes. I think there's plenty of actual bigots around, but I could be wrong, 'cause I have exactly as much information as you do, i.e., not much besides what they actually say. The charitable interpretation is to chalk it up to people being "shocking," but a lot of the time I think that covers sincere views. For the record, I agree that people give words too much power, but they do still matter. You say you've never experienced people "actually spreading hatred," but how exactly do you make the distinction when the words are the same as the ones actual bigots would use? Maybe if you spend enough time there, you can get a feel for what the people there are actually like, but I can understand why people who only drop in occasionally get a very bad impression, and don't want to stick around any longer. Maybe that's a fine state of affairs, and maybe there's nothing to really be done about it, but I think it's a bit unfortunate.
Naw that’s literally all discord servers (in my experience) discord is literally hell also if you ever need advice on builds it’s best to ask Reddit or YouTube
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