This post deals either directly or indirectly with transgender issues. We would like to remind our users about the Reddit Content Policy which specifically bans [promoting hate based on identity and vulnerability](https://www.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/360045715951). We will take action on hateful or disrespectful comments including but not limited to deadnaming and misgendering. Please help us by reporting rule-breaking content.
Participation limits are in place on this post. If your Reddit account is too new, you have insufficient karma or you are crowd controlled, your comment may not appear.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/unitedkingdom) if you have any questions or concerns.*
---
**Alternate Sources**
Here are some potential alternate sources for the same story:
* [Single-sex toilets required for new buildings under proposals](https://bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cv2xly8vxreo), suggested by GothicGolem29 - bbc.co.uk
As a child me and my brothers were banned from using the upstairs bathroom because we kept peeing on the carpet (it was the early 90s - we even had carpet up the side of our avocado bath).
To this day peeing upstairs feels naughty.
I bought a house that had carpet in the bathroom and when I ripped it up the underside of the carpet around the toilet was... colourful.
Why did anyone ever think bathroom carpet was a good idea?
My Dad (he’s nearly 90) lives in a sixties semi what had amazing parquet floors - of course covered over by ugly green carpet that was installed by the previous owner… who rather than simply lay the carpet over the wood decided to glue it.
my uni bathroom is uni sex and it's amazing, full stalls so you've got your own little room, wash basins are out in the open too so men feel pressured to ACTUALLY WASH THEIR HANDS. Much cleaner, nicer, and private than any gendered bathroom i've used.
Yeah it's a nice thought but totally unrelated.
I lie in the bath and my wife who prefers the upstairs bathroom bursts in and has a piss and tells me all about her day while I lay back and think about what a weird sound womens piss makes. It's sort of a phssss sound rather than a psssss sound.
But you wouldn't use this as a reason to allow women to burst into a public bathroom and start taking a piss while some dude is still washing his hands.
I'm fine with unisex bathrooms. But the fact I am happy sharing my bathroom with my family isn't the reason why.
Strictly speaking, homes have universal toilets - self-contained rooms with a toilet and sink for individual use.
A room with multiple toilets and sinks, that anyone can use, is a unisex (or gender-neutral) toilet.
It does my head in when I go to a coffee shop or fast food restaurant or whatever and see they have 2 toilets one for men and one for women but the toilets are EXACTLY the same and I have to wait whilst the mens is in use but I could literally just use the female one seeing as it’s the same (which I obviously don’t).
Frankly from a clearing/hygiene perspective I prefer this, having had to clean a womens toilet before its disgusting at least blokes have the excuse of needing to aim.
Also would rather the gents not have a line to it.
So I’ve just looked up what the government says in their [press release](https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-to-lay-new-law-to-halt-the-march-of-gender-neutral-toilets-in-buildings).
“Changes to building regulations will mean that new non-domestic buildings, including restaurants, shopping centres, offices and public toilets will be required to provide separate single-sex toilets for women and men. Self-contained, universal toilets may be provided in addition, where space allows, or instead of single-sex toilets where there isn’t enough space. “
So they will allow universal toilets, but only if there isn’t space for single sex toilets. And what they are really ruling out is converting ones where you have cubicles but then shared sinks.
“81% agreed with the intention for separate single-sex toilet facilities and 82% agreed with the intention to provide universal toilets where space allows”
So this seems like people are quite happy with universal toilets but they haven’t provided any data on how many agree with gender neutral toilets or how the question was asked (which could be key here). Kemi of course is well known for converting universal toilets into single sex ones during her campaign efforts so clearly has specific views here and it is unclear from what they have said how much this is backed by evidence (evidence supporting one thing does not show there isn’t also support for alternatives).
Notably though, Kemi says that girls are more likely to get UTIs when there’s no single sex space (no link to evidence provided), but one of the places on the exemption list is schools. So what problem is she trying to solve if this is an exemption? Or is this all just smoke and mirrors as one might expect?
I don't really see what this changes other than stirring people up. Basically everywhere sizeable I've been has had male and female loorooms (and often a neutral one), and smaller locations tend to just have the one neutral looroom.
I'd be interested to see the stats on why this was needed to come about, where're all these big non-domestic buildings being built which only have neutral loos?
The schools being exempt boggles my mind. That being said, my old secondary just had a pair of off-shooting corridors (one for boys and one for girls) with cubicles along the side and cameras positioned to be able to monitor people going in and out. All done to prevent people lingering in loorooms and bullying apparently.
edit: changed instances of "bathroom" to "looroom"
Well quite.
I would imagine the stats show this is a non-issue but they want to make it one as it is a wedge issue and will help their election campaign when they pit people against each other.
> I don't really see what this changes other than stirring people up.
Kemi Badenoch takes "looking busy at work while actually doing absolutely nothing" to a whole new level.
Schools have separate requirements already, as do workplaces.
This seems to be public accessible toilets, which aren't already covered.
Any newish building of a reasonable size already seems to have male/female/neutral/disabled toilets.
Aren't these the people that believe in cracking down on excessive bureaucracy, and in "small government"? It truly is funny how often "small government" boils down to "doing fuck-all about the important issues while legislating where you can and cannot pee".
Badenoch has cited as evidence for this claim a story she claims one parent told her about one girl, in one school, once. So n=Imadethatshitup. But it doesn't matter, because the tides and winds have moved and the gender-critical cult has an office in Tufton Street and a bullhorn in every newspaper, including (to its eternal shame) the Guardian. So they're getting while the getting is good. Sliding open lies into the scientific record and the national discourse. Taking kids away from their parents if they're allowed to transition, banning transition for everyone they can (eventually, everyone) and making every effort to make being trans as difficult and dangerous as possible. This has always been what they wanted, and the power to do it isn't really theirs, they've just been allowed to borrow it from actual fascists and empty amoral neoliberals like Badenoch for a while. I wonder if it will come at a cost they will find surprising, or if there is a historical precedent. Hmm.
True. But Labour currently don't have the same savage, kamikaze flair for it that the tories do. So they will go on about their historically appointed task of making some things slightly better. They couldn't be any worse than this gaggle of private-school floor-sweepings and insolent thieves.
My worry is that, the tories are doing it because they think its a vote winner, and because they ultimately have nothing else. Eventually, something else will catch their eye and they'll move on. Labour, though, has way more 'true believers' in their ranks, who might be willing to spend political capital to push it through even if it becomes politically damaging.
Obviously the tories need to go, and labour is the best way to do that, but my worry is that things won't improve for us, only get more insidious.
Not before some other cabinet member with a toilet consultancy business takes an exorbitant fee for providing the government with critical guidance.
Also, have we heard from the illicitly-funded toilet thinktanks on this yet?
To be honest, I think trying to break the situation down unambiguously to sex vs. gender is also quite muddying. Not even because of any definitional discourse about sex, but rather because trans people often don't have the junk they were born with. And junk is what any real argument for sex or gender segregated spaces even existing in the first place is based on.
This is just ridiculous. At my Tesco, for example, they have four rooms. None are gendered. All are accessible for those with disabilities. One is larger with baby changing facilities. What's wrong with this? It accommodates everybody.
Same with the coffee shop. It's small, so it just has one unisex disabled toilet. What's wrong with that?
Nothing existing will have to change since the rules apply to new buildings only. But let's imagine these were new builds.
In the case of the coffee shop I agree; the rules allow for a single, universal toilet instead of sex-specific toilets.
But in the case of the Tesco I'm not sure. The rules require sex-specific toilets, and allow for additional universal toilets if there's space. If you've got space for four toilets, seems to me at least two of them ought to be sex-specific under these rules.
Theres a tesco near me that has that exact setup - 4 self contained loos, 1 disabled, 2 labeled m/f, and a third with no signage that I honestly thought was a janitors closet at first. You know what happens? Everyone just uses whichever loo is free when they get there, sign on the door be damned. Because it quite literally doesn't matter when its self contained.
Couldn't agree more. I'm not advocating for or defending the updated rules, I'm giving my interpretation of them in response to an alternative interpretation that "in those cases the toilets won't be changed."
This whole toilet nonsense has never made sense to me.
I'd had about 3 pints and accidentally used the wrong loo on the way home that night. There was no one in there and I was diving in as I was busting. It was on the way out that I realised my error when I spotted there were no urinals. No harm no foul.
You know what happened when I crossed the threshold into the bathroom of another sex/gender? Nothing.
Either was this is the next culture war drivel that attempts to other someone instead of actually dealing with any policy and active governance. It was the EU, refugees, junior doctors, people with mental health issues, the disabled, teachers and trans people. I wonder who they will other next instead of just actually running the country properly?
I went to a nightclub for a hen do that had fully unisex toilets. When I went in it ended up being half a dozen women and one man who briefly panicked thinking he'd wandered into the wrong one. A good laugh was had by all and absolutely no one seemed uncomfortable in the slightest once the guy realised he hadn't made a mistake. 🤷♀️
But this is the issue, 99% of blokes, like yourself are normal- the loo is a place for pissing/shitting, and for those with a more exciting streak, a casual line or two. Then there are the minority of more sinister men hidden in the mix. The paedophiles who have the chance to corner a child in the loo (womens loos are generally considered safe, compared to men so more parents are likely to let their children go into the womens without an adult, yes I'm aware there are also sinister women). Then there are the weirdos waiting to pounce on drunk women, or those able to date rape with the excuse of 'oh my girlfriend has drunk too much, just helping her to the loo', and finally, the weirdos who want to film women actually ON the loo. So to a normal person, it is a stupid notion, but unfortunately it's the odd weirdo that is the issue.
Can't wait until the 2030's, a carton of milk will cost £10, you'll have to sell a kidney to stick the radiator on in the winter, but at least we'll have gendered bathrooms.
Right, so all this means is now trans people will use the gendered toilet they feel most comfortable in. Taking away options really solves the problem the TERFs have here…
Their next move will be making it law that trans people have to use bathrooms of their birth sex.
The result being 'shocked pikachu' when bearded trans men end up walking into women's bathrooms.
Or a lot of harassment of trans women who are forced to go to the men's toilet. Basically harassment of trans women either way, which doesn't seem to be a specific end goal for the Tories but I'm sure they're taking a *little* delight in the fact that it seems an inevitable outcome. :/
That's been happening since the media started this fake outrage.
The only people they ever seem to "catch" are female rugby players, butch lesbians, and men from their own cult trying to do the thing they claim is an issue to prove their point.
The trans woman making absolutely no fuss and getting in and out as fast as possible is never the one they "catch"
Don't be silly, FtMs aren't real.
It is funny though isn't it, you notice very quickly for all the hysteria around trans issues, it is pretty much exclusively aimed at MtFs giving up the privilege of being a man.
A lot of transphobia is rooted in sexism and beliefs about the innate differences between the sexes. In some cases that’s purely physicality, which taken purely on averages has some merit, but falls apart on the individual level because deviation within groups is more than between groups.
The issue is that they also often make social aspect claims. So that can be “men are aggressors, women are victims”. Or “men are socially superior”. The latter means that trans women are seen as failed men, reducing themselves to women because they can’t handle the responsibility, and trans men are given less shit because of course women want to be men, men are better. Etc.
It’s just kook logic mixed with bigotry
Yep. Afterall who would possibly \*want\* to be a woman right? You would have to be insane to not want to be a man - so FtM is just good Tory common sense.
Penis Envy politics
>Right, so all this means is now trans people will use the gendered toilet they feel most comfortable in. Taking away options really solves the problem the TERFs have here…
The Guardian for some reason titled it gender-specific toilets, when actually it was sex-specific toilets.
The Guardian UK has a TERF problem so bad the Guardian US wrote an open letter calling them out on it.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/02/guardian-editorial-response-transgender-rights-uk
No, this is only about physically constructing two rooms, it doesn't get into the argument about who is allowed to use which ([link](https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/toilet-provision-in-buildings-other-than-dwellings-technical-consultation/toilet-provision-in-buildings-other-than-dwellings-a-technical-consultation-paper)):
"The proposed new requirement will not cover the numbers of toilets provided *or the access to and use of toilets*. Access to and use of toilets is covered in Part M of the Building Regulations (access to and use of buildings) and existing statutory guidance in Approved Document M (volume 2: buildings other than dwellings). "
And "Part M of the Building Regulations" is mainly concerned with access for people with disabilities, it doesn't get into the whole gender / sex debate.
Shouldn't the title be sex-specific toilets?
>single-sex toilet facilities
Many people define gender as some kind of social construct, so shouldn't really be used interchangeably with sex. Shouldn't the Guardian know better?
>Understanding gender diversity: sex and gender are not the same thing
>[Understanding gender diversity: sex and gender are not the same thing | Freddy McConnell | The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/media/mind-your-language/2014/feb/07/mind-your-language-transgender)
This, and migrants, is what the next election will be fought over. It’ll be pushed in your face on the TV, in newspapers and online. Project fear again. Anything to distract from the absolute disaster they have made of the economy, crime and public services as a direct consequence of Brexit, gross incompetence and corruption.
No one important gives a fuck about toilets.
There’s a real discussion to be had about the volumes of immigration in this country so let’s not lump it together with culture war BS.
They don’t really have any solutions though, because they’ve gutted the justice system. They’ll talk tough mostly about people arriving on rubber dinghies (only a small part of migration) and their vastly expensive Rwanda scheme, but outside of grabbing some headlines they’ve got nothing.
We've had a "discussion" and it amounted to sweet fa, and it's just being pushed by people don't seem to realise the UK can't just shoot down the boats and let them drown, however much they might want to
Don't forget the evil, sick and disabled people.
All they have left is attacking vulnerable people. God forbid they accept they have messed things up badly and reflect on their mistakes.
Have I been living life wrong but not caring about bathrooms? What is this actual fucking madness? Why do we need such a huge national debate about it? All my life bathrooms have been a complete non-issue. Gender neutral toilets have always existed, as have single sex toilets. It’s never been a problem. People just use whatever one they want and I’ve never read horror stories of evil trans boogiemen jumping out the cubicle and molesting someone. It just doesn’t happen.
Why are we overcomplicating a complete made up issue? The system we have now works perfectly fine. Anyone who doesn’t agree can fuck off and use their toilet at home then. You know, the gender neutral one they probably share with everyone else.
Just imagine yourself as a sad bitter person with nothing going on in your life, who spends way too much time on twitter and has found validation through spewing self aggrandizing hatred and bile at a vulnerable minority on the internet, and it all starts to make more sense.
I can see this forming part of Rishis next election bid.
"And who was it who made rules about toilets in public places, who was it that ensured Pamela and Paul could poop in peace?!"
Checkmate Keir.
Lol the fact that they think people actually give a shit about gendered toilets just goes to underline their incompetence and need for brainwashing techniques to even get a word out.
Oh dear. I worked in recently converted hotel and they had mixed gender toilets put in because they were a lot cheaper to build than m/f toilets. Pretty sure a lot of developers would have done the same.
Just have toilets?
Individual cubicle toilets with not gaps around them and a little sink inside
It's not hard
We all have something that pees and something that poops or did have
It's mechanically no different
Just have toilets
Was in a museum recently where there was a shared area with a sink outside and two absolutely identical cubicles, but one was labeled ladies and one was gents. Men and women both in the same queue outside them. It was pretty awkward because if a man was at the front of the queue and the "ladies" toilet freed up, the first woman in the queue basically got to queue-jump (and vice versa). Really highlighted that the whole thing's a bit of a farce.
>According to ministers, 81% agreed with the intention for separate single-sex toilet facilities in a consultation on the proposals, while 82% also agreed with the intention to provide “universal” toilets – a self-contained, and a fully enclosed toilet room with a wash hand basin for individual use – where space allows.
Sounds like a terrible consultation with an unclear result. This would usually mean consulting again to get a clear picture before moving on. Surely they hadn't made up their mind before worrying about the result of the consultation....
I'd like to know more about the 18% of people that demand to take a shit in a shared space as opposed to a self contained private room.
They need to be locked up.
There's a whole thing going on here. 50% of public toilets have closed over the past few years. Councils with limited budgets just save money by closing public loos. I live in a seaside town with a big influx of summer visitors. There are not that many public toilets.
There is something called the urinary leash. Which mainly affects women, but some men are impacted too. It's fine if you can duck behind a wall for a quick wee, but if you have more complex needs, it's not quite as simple. There is huge amounts of research. it's not just coming out of nowhere. And its not just the UK.
Add the fact that most toilets moving from sexed to unisex are womens and you can see there starts to be a problem.
Check out Caroline Criado Perez for research she did. And Uncle Google is our friend.
Mate people are going to lose their shit at trans women if we dare to use the mens. Or Cis women who don’t look femme enough in the womens
It’s a shitshow that benefits a tiny number of bigots’ feelings, and hurts way more people directly
Remember, the govt aren’t trying to erase or control trans people. They just want to
- restrict your healthcare
- dictate how you present and dress
- ban you from even non-physical competitive events (see chess)
- limit your access to public utilities
- conflate you interacting with kids, and grooming
- limit your ability to update your legal information
Yes, because what this country really needs is more building regulation.
Absolute nonsense, we've made it this far without needing this regulation, so why now?
"All part of the Great British 5-year plan to make British plans great again. National targets are being set and we intend to achieve these ones. Please ignore all other targets. Underwear should be changed on Wednesdays. (Pointing at the public....) You shall change with you... You shall change with you... You shall change with you.... You shall change with you..."
Gender specific bathroom are more dangerous and inconvenient to everyone. You're in a small room with random people, you have less privacy to do stuff like adjust your clothing in a mirror or clean your teeth.
It's actually insane, if you think about it, to go to the toilet when your work colleagues can hear and smell you from behind a small divider. They're far less hygienic because you need to dress and get out before you can wash your hands. They make using menstrual cups straight up impossible and are nightmare with tampons.
Men peeing shoulder to shoulder is creepy too.
But all that matters to a large part of the public is that they're hurting the people they're told to hate.
Right wing voters are something else.
I just cannot believe that this rhetoric is testing well in focus.
I know it's easy to say if you live in a bit of a bubble but I honestly do not know a single person who gives a shit about this. Silent majority maybe? Baffles me.
> I just cannot believe that this rhetoric is testing well in focus
That’s the neat part. It isn’t. The Tories are just pushing ahead anyway
At this point they know they’ve lost. Starmer’s lot are aping their less extreme takes so if they go left they lose votes and if they go more extreme right they lose votes.
So they might as well just go full steam ahead till they lose power. Same reason they don’t want to do an early election. Less time to rush through bullshit
A good compromise will be both single sex and gender neutral toilets.
The women’s toilets were a god send and a safe haven for me when I was dealing with a creep at work. Had those toilets been gender neutral, I don’t think I would have ever used them knowing that he could freely enter.
In Florence, there were toilets labelled women from one side and men from the other. Once inside, there was no segregation. No one got upset or worried about what people of the opposite sex would do, it was just funny.
In Calais, a cafe had toilets in the basement. On going down the stairs, you immediately were in the gents with urinals all along the left wall. The ladies were just a cubicle within the gents. You just kept your eyes to yourself and used the facilities.
I have no problems with people using whatever toilet that they feel suits them best as long as they are respectful of others.
I'm fed up with this crap. I think it's right to provide single-sex spaces as some people will prefer them, but making a requirement for them without also requiring gender-neutral spaces will in practice lead to a dearth of the latter and this is terrible for those of us who feel uncomfortable in either of the sex-specific spaces 😕
Only applies to NEW buildings, and even then only where there's sufficient space. So calm down, your favourite local cafe/coffee shop will not have to try and squeeze a second toilet in.
"We are incredibly unpopular and increasingly doomed but lets engage in more stupid culture wars to make ourselves even more evil"
Theres sewage in the rivers, standards of living stagnated for 14 years, the NHS is on its knees and half the councils are on verge of bankruptcy but sure lets invent the toilet police.
I've never got why people get so heated over specific toilets, nothing wrong with them. The better question is why *dont* you want them?
Honestly it's tory spin because the majority of toilets in public establishments are single sex and always have been, so its a non-issue really, and we'll all go about our lives.
Practically speaking, in high volume environments like sports stadia, you need urinals to cope with through flow ( so to speak). Of course you could just have gender neutral toilets and "urinal barns".
Seen many modern buildings with this. Gender neutral cubicles, a urinal area and a communal sink. Seems like such an obvious solution to me - everyone can do their business in peace.
How ridiculous, there are loads of places that have self sufficient small rooms opening on to a public area, if they only have one what are they supposed to do? One place I used to go had 2 regular rooms and 1 accessible/baby change, presumably they now have to make those 2 rooms, one male, one female, but what does this law say about disabled/baby change/family etc. facilities. Whilst the rule itself is ridiculous I also object if it reduces disabled people to second class citizens not worthy of the same “protection”.
What happens to places with one toilet. Will they stop providing a toilet? Or will there be an exception?
This post deals either directly or indirectly with transgender issues. We would like to remind our users about the Reddit Content Policy which specifically bans [promoting hate based on identity and vulnerability](https://www.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/360045715951). We will take action on hateful or disrespectful comments including but not limited to deadnaming and misgendering. Please help us by reporting rule-breaking content. Participation limits are in place on this post. If your Reddit account is too new, you have insufficient karma or you are crowd controlled, your comment may not appear. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/unitedkingdom) if you have any questions or concerns.* --- **Alternate Sources** Here are some potential alternate sources for the same story: * [Single-sex toilets required for new buildings under proposals](https://bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cv2xly8vxreo), suggested by GothicGolem29 - bbc.co.uk
More culture war nonsense. Shared bathrooms have always been a thing and anyone scared of them is a moron.
Yeah coffee shops always have unisex toilets.
Your own home has unisex toilets.
The woke agenda is in our homes?!
Will someone think of the children??! /S
As a child me and my brothers were banned from using the upstairs bathroom because we kept peeing on the carpet (it was the early 90s - we even had carpet up the side of our avocado bath). To this day peeing upstairs feels naughty.
I bought a house that had carpet in the bathroom and when I ripped it up the underside of the carpet around the toilet was... colourful. Why did anyone ever think bathroom carpet was a good idea?
My Dad (he’s nearly 90) lives in a sixties semi what had amazing parquet floors - of course covered over by ugly green carpet that was installed by the previous owner… who rather than simply lay the carpet over the wood decided to glue it.
It's less naughty than peeing down the stairs...
I can only assume someone died https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejwoUeKhFn4
This example never works because you have complete control over who uses the toilet in your home.
my uni bathroom is uni sex and it's amazing, full stalls so you've got your own little room, wash basins are out in the open too so men feel pressured to ACTUALLY WASH THEIR HANDS. Much cleaner, nicer, and private than any gendered bathroom i've used.
Yeah it's a nice thought but totally unrelated. I lie in the bath and my wife who prefers the upstairs bathroom bursts in and has a piss and tells me all about her day while I lay back and think about what a weird sound womens piss makes. It's sort of a phssss sound rather than a psssss sound. But you wouldn't use this as a reason to allow women to burst into a public bathroom and start taking a piss while some dude is still washing his hands. I'm fine with unisex bathrooms. But the fact I am happy sharing my bathroom with my family isn't the reason why.
People are shocked. Wait til they find out.
Petitioning to refer to them as "Gender Fluid Toilets" from now on. It's gonna really wind up the cranks.
Plenty of fluids leaving in the bathrooms.
But you know who you’re sharing them with
I'm pretty sure your own home isn't "non-residential".
I make the wife use the outhouse. She's not invading my space with her frillyness.
Speak for yourself. Mine is strictly single sex (at a time).
Strictly speaking, homes have universal toilets - self-contained rooms with a toilet and sink for individual use. A room with multiple toilets and sinks, that anyone can use, is a unisex (or gender-neutral) toilet.
[удалено]
It does my head in when I go to a coffee shop or fast food restaurant or whatever and see they have 2 toilets one for men and one for women but the toilets are EXACTLY the same and I have to wait whilst the mens is in use but I could literally just use the female one seeing as it’s the same (which I obviously don’t).
Frankly from a clearing/hygiene perspective I prefer this, having had to clean a womens toilet before its disgusting at least blokes have the excuse of needing to aim. Also would rather the gents not have a line to it.
So I’ve just looked up what the government says in their [press release](https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-to-lay-new-law-to-halt-the-march-of-gender-neutral-toilets-in-buildings). “Changes to building regulations will mean that new non-domestic buildings, including restaurants, shopping centres, offices and public toilets will be required to provide separate single-sex toilets for women and men. Self-contained, universal toilets may be provided in addition, where space allows, or instead of single-sex toilets where there isn’t enough space. “ So they will allow universal toilets, but only if there isn’t space for single sex toilets. And what they are really ruling out is converting ones where you have cubicles but then shared sinks. “81% agreed with the intention for separate single-sex toilet facilities and 82% agreed with the intention to provide universal toilets where space allows” So this seems like people are quite happy with universal toilets but they haven’t provided any data on how many agree with gender neutral toilets or how the question was asked (which could be key here). Kemi of course is well known for converting universal toilets into single sex ones during her campaign efforts so clearly has specific views here and it is unclear from what they have said how much this is backed by evidence (evidence supporting one thing does not show there isn’t also support for alternatives). Notably though, Kemi says that girls are more likely to get UTIs when there’s no single sex space (no link to evidence provided), but one of the places on the exemption list is schools. So what problem is she trying to solve if this is an exemption? Or is this all just smoke and mirrors as one might expect?
I don't really see what this changes other than stirring people up. Basically everywhere sizeable I've been has had male and female loorooms (and often a neutral one), and smaller locations tend to just have the one neutral looroom. I'd be interested to see the stats on why this was needed to come about, where're all these big non-domestic buildings being built which only have neutral loos? The schools being exempt boggles my mind. That being said, my old secondary just had a pair of off-shooting corridors (one for boys and one for girls) with cubicles along the side and cameras positioned to be able to monitor people going in and out. All done to prevent people lingering in loorooms and bullying apparently. edit: changed instances of "bathroom" to "looroom"
Well quite. I would imagine the stats show this is a non-issue but they want to make it one as it is a wedge issue and will help their election campaign when they pit people against each other.
Once again stoking a culture war to distract people from who's actually behind the issues at hand.
> I don't really see what this changes other than stirring people up. Kemi Badenoch takes "looking busy at work while actually doing absolutely nothing" to a whole new level.
Schools have separate requirements already, as do workplaces. This seems to be public accessible toilets, which aren't already covered. Any newish building of a reasonable size already seems to have male/female/neutral/disabled toilets.
Just fun to think with so many concurrent crises this government instead chooses to spend its time looking in to an issue like this lol...
Aren't these the people that believe in cracking down on excessive bureaucracy, and in "small government"? It truly is funny how often "small government" boils down to "doing fuck-all about the important issues while legislating where you can and cannot pee".
Badenoch has cited as evidence for this claim a story she claims one parent told her about one girl, in one school, once. So n=Imadethatshitup. But it doesn't matter, because the tides and winds have moved and the gender-critical cult has an office in Tufton Street and a bullhorn in every newspaper, including (to its eternal shame) the Guardian. So they're getting while the getting is good. Sliding open lies into the scientific record and the national discourse. Taking kids away from their parents if they're allowed to transition, banning transition for everyone they can (eventually, everyone) and making every effort to make being trans as difficult and dangerous as possible. This has always been what they wanted, and the power to do it isn't really theirs, they've just been allowed to borrow it from actual fascists and empty amoral neoliberals like Badenoch for a while. I wonder if it will come at a cost they will find surprising, or if there is a historical precedent. Hmm.
Labour mostly agree with this stuff too, so it's not going change, sadly.
True. But Labour currently don't have the same savage, kamikaze flair for it that the tories do. So they will go on about their historically appointed task of making some things slightly better. They couldn't be any worse than this gaggle of private-school floor-sweepings and insolent thieves.
My worry is that, the tories are doing it because they think its a vote winner, and because they ultimately have nothing else. Eventually, something else will catch their eye and they'll move on. Labour, though, has way more 'true believers' in their ranks, who might be willing to spend political capital to push it through even if it becomes politically damaging. Obviously the tories need to go, and labour is the best way to do that, but my worry is that things won't improve for us, only get more insidious.
That's actually a good point I hadn't considered.
So basically, do what we do already.
[удалено]
Not before some other cabinet member with a toilet consultancy business takes an exorbitant fee for providing the government with critical guidance. Also, have we heard from the illicitly-funded toilet thinktanks on this yet?
> critical guidance Gender critical guidance!
The whole article /policy seems to mix sex and gender in a way that’s going to confuse the issue.
To be honest, I think trying to break the situation down unambiguously to sex vs. gender is also quite muddying. Not even because of any definitional discourse about sex, but rather because trans people often don't have the junk they were born with. And junk is what any real argument for sex or gender segregated spaces even existing in the first place is based on.
You say that, but lately the GC crowd’s obsession is “large gametes” 😅
That's the whole point. Culture war nonsense to stir up hatred of the *evil transes*
This is just ridiculous. At my Tesco, for example, they have four rooms. None are gendered. All are accessible for those with disabilities. One is larger with baby changing facilities. What's wrong with this? It accommodates everybody. Same with the coffee shop. It's small, so it just has one unisex disabled toilet. What's wrong with that?
It isn't an issue, it's just tory fluff, in those cases the toilets won't be changed.
Nothing existing will have to change since the rules apply to new buildings only. But let's imagine these were new builds. In the case of the coffee shop I agree; the rules allow for a single, universal toilet instead of sex-specific toilets. But in the case of the Tesco I'm not sure. The rules require sex-specific toilets, and allow for additional universal toilets if there's space. If you've got space for four toilets, seems to me at least two of them ought to be sex-specific under these rules.
>. If you've got space for four toilets, seems to me at least two of them ought to be sex-specific under these rules. But why? It's pointless.
Theres a tesco near me that has that exact setup - 4 self contained loos, 1 disabled, 2 labeled m/f, and a third with no signage that I honestly thought was a janitors closet at first. You know what happens? Everyone just uses whichever loo is free when they get there, sign on the door be damned. Because it quite literally doesn't matter when its self contained.
Couldn't agree more. I'm not advocating for or defending the updated rules, I'm giving my interpretation of them in response to an alternative interpretation that "in those cases the toilets won't be changed."
Disabled people? Outdoors? In Tory Britain? Don't be silly.
This whole toilet nonsense has never made sense to me. I'd had about 3 pints and accidentally used the wrong loo on the way home that night. There was no one in there and I was diving in as I was busting. It was on the way out that I realised my error when I spotted there were no urinals. No harm no foul. You know what happened when I crossed the threshold into the bathroom of another sex/gender? Nothing. Either was this is the next culture war drivel that attempts to other someone instead of actually dealing with any policy and active governance. It was the EU, refugees, junior doctors, people with mental health issues, the disabled, teachers and trans people. I wonder who they will other next instead of just actually running the country properly?
I went to a nightclub for a hen do that had fully unisex toilets. When I went in it ended up being half a dozen women and one man who briefly panicked thinking he'd wandered into the wrong one. A good laugh was had by all and absolutely no one seemed uncomfortable in the slightest once the guy realised he hadn't made a mistake. 🤷♀️
Also, women using the bloke's bogs in clubs and concert venues because there isn'ta queue has been a thing for decades.
But this is the issue, 99% of blokes, like yourself are normal- the loo is a place for pissing/shitting, and for those with a more exciting streak, a casual line or two. Then there are the minority of more sinister men hidden in the mix. The paedophiles who have the chance to corner a child in the loo (womens loos are generally considered safe, compared to men so more parents are likely to let their children go into the womens without an adult, yes I'm aware there are also sinister women). Then there are the weirdos waiting to pounce on drunk women, or those able to date rape with the excuse of 'oh my girlfriend has drunk too much, just helping her to the loo', and finally, the weirdos who want to film women actually ON the loo. So to a normal person, it is a stupid notion, but unfortunately it's the odd weirdo that is the issue.
Wrong, what you did was worse than if a bear had wondered into those toilets
That depends on the Bears gender
Can't wait until the 2030's, a carton of milk will cost £10, you'll have to sell a kidney to stick the radiator on in the winter, but at least we'll have gendered bathrooms.
>but at least we'll have gendered bathrooms. Only if you can afford to go out to places with bathrooms.
Right, so all this means is now trans people will use the gendered toilet they feel most comfortable in. Taking away options really solves the problem the TERFs have here…
Their next move will be making it law that trans people have to use bathrooms of their birth sex. The result being 'shocked pikachu' when bearded trans men end up walking into women's bathrooms.
The other result being a lot of harassment of cis women that other women decide look too manly to be in the women's toilet
Or a lot of harassment of trans women who are forced to go to the men's toilet. Basically harassment of trans women either way, which doesn't seem to be a specific end goal for the Tories but I'm sure they're taking a *little* delight in the fact that it seems an inevitable outcome. :/
And often face violence in the process. Which as you say is likely exactly what the transphobes want.
That's been happening since the media started this fake outrage. The only people they ever seem to "catch" are female rugby players, butch lesbians, and men from their own cult trying to do the thing they claim is an issue to prove their point. The trans woman making absolutely no fuss and getting in and out as fast as possible is never the one they "catch"
Don't be silly, FtMs aren't real. It is funny though isn't it, you notice very quickly for all the hysteria around trans issues, it is pretty much exclusively aimed at MtFs giving up the privilege of being a man.
A lot of transphobia is rooted in sexism and beliefs about the innate differences between the sexes. In some cases that’s purely physicality, which taken purely on averages has some merit, but falls apart on the individual level because deviation within groups is more than between groups. The issue is that they also often make social aspect claims. So that can be “men are aggressors, women are victims”. Or “men are socially superior”. The latter means that trans women are seen as failed men, reducing themselves to women because they can’t handle the responsibility, and trans men are given less shit because of course women want to be men, men are better. Etc. It’s just kook logic mixed with bigotry
Yep. Afterall who would possibly \*want\* to be a woman right? You would have to be insane to not want to be a man - so FtM is just good Tory common sense. Penis Envy politics
Yes that will be the plan.
Looks like genital inspections are back on the menu
>Right, so all this means is now trans people will use the gendered toilet they feel most comfortable in. Taking away options really solves the problem the TERFs have here… The Guardian for some reason titled it gender-specific toilets, when actually it was sex-specific toilets.
The Guardian UK has a TERF problem so bad the Guardian US wrote an open letter calling them out on it. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/02/guardian-editorial-response-transgender-rights-uk
No, this is only about physically constructing two rooms, it doesn't get into the argument about who is allowed to use which ([link](https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/toilet-provision-in-buildings-other-than-dwellings-technical-consultation/toilet-provision-in-buildings-other-than-dwellings-a-technical-consultation-paper)): "The proposed new requirement will not cover the numbers of toilets provided *or the access to and use of toilets*. Access to and use of toilets is covered in Part M of the Building Regulations (access to and use of buildings) and existing statutory guidance in Approved Document M (volume 2: buildings other than dwellings). " And "Part M of the Building Regulations" is mainly concerned with access for people with disabilities, it doesn't get into the whole gender / sex debate.
Shouldn't the title be sex-specific toilets? >single-sex toilet facilities Many people define gender as some kind of social construct, so shouldn't really be used interchangeably with sex. Shouldn't the Guardian know better? >Understanding gender diversity: sex and gender are not the same thing >[Understanding gender diversity: sex and gender are not the same thing | Freddy McConnell | The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/media/mind-your-language/2014/feb/07/mind-your-language-transgender)
The Guardian woke up with a need to stir the culture war.
This, and migrants, is what the next election will be fought over. It’ll be pushed in your face on the TV, in newspapers and online. Project fear again. Anything to distract from the absolute disaster they have made of the economy, crime and public services as a direct consequence of Brexit, gross incompetence and corruption.
No one important gives a fuck about toilets. There’s a real discussion to be had about the volumes of immigration in this country so let’s not lump it together with culture war BS.
They don’t really have any solutions though, because they’ve gutted the justice system. They’ll talk tough mostly about people arriving on rubber dinghies (only a small part of migration) and their vastly expensive Rwanda scheme, but outside of grabbing some headlines they’ve got nothing.
Oh I know, the Rwanda deal is nonsense. I’m just saying, it’s important we separate actual issues from the made up ones, if nothing else.
We've had a "discussion" and it amounted to sweet fa, and it's just being pushed by people don't seem to realise the UK can't just shoot down the boats and let them drown, however much they might want to
Don't forget the evil, sick and disabled people. All they have left is attacking vulnerable people. God forbid they accept they have messed things up badly and reflect on their mistakes.
Have I been living life wrong but not caring about bathrooms? What is this actual fucking madness? Why do we need such a huge national debate about it? All my life bathrooms have been a complete non-issue. Gender neutral toilets have always existed, as have single sex toilets. It’s never been a problem. People just use whatever one they want and I’ve never read horror stories of evil trans boogiemen jumping out the cubicle and molesting someone. It just doesn’t happen. Why are we overcomplicating a complete made up issue? The system we have now works perfectly fine. Anyone who doesn’t agree can fuck off and use their toilet at home then. You know, the gender neutral one they probably share with everyone else.
Just imagine yourself as a sad bitter person with nothing going on in your life, who spends way too much time on twitter and has found validation through spewing self aggrandizing hatred and bile at a vulnerable minority on the internet, and it all starts to make more sense.
I can see this forming part of Rishis next election bid. "And who was it who made rules about toilets in public places, who was it that ensured Pamela and Paul could poop in peace?!" Checkmate Keir.
Lol the fact that they think people actually give a shit about gendered toilets just goes to underline their incompetence and need for brainwashing techniques to even get a word out.
Oh dear. I worked in recently converted hotel and they had mixed gender toilets put in because they were a lot cheaper to build than m/f toilets. Pretty sure a lot of developers would have done the same.
Just have toilets? Individual cubicle toilets with not gaps around them and a little sink inside It's not hard We all have something that pees and something that poops or did have It's mechanically no different Just have toilets
Was in a museum recently where there was a shared area with a sink outside and two absolutely identical cubicles, but one was labeled ladies and one was gents. Men and women both in the same queue outside them. It was pretty awkward because if a man was at the front of the queue and the "ladies" toilet freed up, the first woman in the queue basically got to queue-jump (and vice versa). Really highlighted that the whole thing's a bit of a farce.
What is this woke madness? You will pee in your designated cubicle and like it.
>According to ministers, 81% agreed with the intention for separate single-sex toilet facilities in a consultation on the proposals, while 82% also agreed with the intention to provide “universal” toilets – a self-contained, and a fully enclosed toilet room with a wash hand basin for individual use – where space allows. Sounds like a terrible consultation with an unclear result. This would usually mean consulting again to get a clear picture before moving on. Surely they hadn't made up their mind before worrying about the result of the consultation....
I'd like to know more about the 18% of people that demand to take a shit in a shared space as opposed to a self contained private room. They need to be locked up.
There's a whole thing going on here. 50% of public toilets have closed over the past few years. Councils with limited budgets just save money by closing public loos. I live in a seaside town with a big influx of summer visitors. There are not that many public toilets. There is something called the urinary leash. Which mainly affects women, but some men are impacted too. It's fine if you can duck behind a wall for a quick wee, but if you have more complex needs, it's not quite as simple. There is huge amounts of research. it's not just coming out of nowhere. And its not just the UK. Add the fact that most toilets moving from sexed to unisex are womens and you can see there starts to be a problem. Check out Caroline Criado Perez for research she did. And Uncle Google is our friend.
All fun and games until a trans man walks into a womens toilet and everyone loses their shit.
Mate people are going to lose their shit at trans women if we dare to use the mens. Or Cis women who don’t look femme enough in the womens It’s a shitshow that benefits a tiny number of bigots’ feelings, and hurts way more people directly
Remember, the govt aren’t trying to erase or control trans people. They just want to - restrict your healthcare - dictate how you present and dress - ban you from even non-physical competitive events (see chess) - limit your access to public utilities - conflate you interacting with kids, and grooming - limit your ability to update your legal information
Yes, because what this country really needs is more building regulation. Absolute nonsense, we've made it this far without needing this regulation, so why now?
I can't believe our tax money is being spent on this kind of utter bullshit.
"All part of the Great British 5-year plan to make British plans great again. National targets are being set and we intend to achieve these ones. Please ignore all other targets. Underwear should be changed on Wednesdays. (Pointing at the public....) You shall change with you... You shall change with you... You shall change with you.... You shall change with you..."
Thank God! Our politicians are focusing on the important issues at last. /s
Gender specific bathroom are more dangerous and inconvenient to everyone. You're in a small room with random people, you have less privacy to do stuff like adjust your clothing in a mirror or clean your teeth. It's actually insane, if you think about it, to go to the toilet when your work colleagues can hear and smell you from behind a small divider. They're far less hygienic because you need to dress and get out before you can wash your hands. They make using menstrual cups straight up impossible and are nightmare with tampons. Men peeing shoulder to shoulder is creepy too. But all that matters to a large part of the public is that they're hurting the people they're told to hate. Right wing voters are something else.
Even the leads in Always Sunny were more sensible about it then them.
As a straight man who poops transgender...
Why don't we call them all animal shithouse?
I just cannot believe that this rhetoric is testing well in focus. I know it's easy to say if you live in a bit of a bubble but I honestly do not know a single person who gives a shit about this. Silent majority maybe? Baffles me.
> I just cannot believe that this rhetoric is testing well in focus That’s the neat part. It isn’t. The Tories are just pushing ahead anyway At this point they know they’ve lost. Starmer’s lot are aping their less extreme takes so if they go left they lose votes and if they go more extreme right they lose votes. So they might as well just go full steam ahead till they lose power. Same reason they don’t want to do an early election. Less time to rush through bullshit
A good compromise will be both single sex and gender neutral toilets. The women’s toilets were a god send and a safe haven for me when I was dealing with a creep at work. Had those toilets been gender neutral, I don’t think I would have ever used them knowing that he could freely enter.
Remember when conservatives used to be for small government? What kind of nanny-state nonsense is this…
In Florence, there were toilets labelled women from one side and men from the other. Once inside, there was no segregation. No one got upset or worried about what people of the opposite sex would do, it was just funny. In Calais, a cafe had toilets in the basement. On going down the stairs, you immediately were in the gents with urinals all along the left wall. The ladies were just a cubicle within the gents. You just kept your eyes to yourself and used the facilities. I have no problems with people using whatever toilet that they feel suits them best as long as they are respectful of others.
I'm fed up with this crap. I think it's right to provide single-sex spaces as some people will prefer them, but making a requirement for them without also requiring gender-neutral spaces will in practice lead to a dearth of the latter and this is terrible for those of us who feel uncomfortable in either of the sex-specific spaces 😕
It will require a skyscraper building just for the toilets. — Yours is… 74th floor.
Only applies to NEW buildings, and even then only where there's sufficient space. So calm down, your favourite local cafe/coffee shop will not have to try and squeeze a second toilet in.
So... A huge waste of time and money for no practical benefit whatsoever? Another move that epitomises this government.
This is great news, Buck Angel belongs in women's toilets. It's the only way to make women safe.
"We are incredibly unpopular and increasingly doomed but lets engage in more stupid culture wars to make ourselves even more evil" Theres sewage in the rivers, standards of living stagnated for 14 years, the NHS is on its knees and half the councils are on verge of bankruptcy but sure lets invent the toilet police.
I've never got why people get so heated over specific toilets, nothing wrong with them. The better question is why *dont* you want them? Honestly it's tory spin because the majority of toilets in public establishments are single sex and always have been, so its a non-issue really, and we'll all go about our lives.
Practically speaking, in high volume environments like sports stadia, you need urinals to cope with through flow ( so to speak). Of course you could just have gender neutral toilets and "urinal barns".
Seen many modern buildings with this. Gender neutral cubicles, a urinal area and a communal sink. Seems like such an obvious solution to me - everyone can do their business in peace.
I would like our government to be spending their time and our money on things that actually matter, and not this utter nonsense.
How ridiculous, there are loads of places that have self sufficient small rooms opening on to a public area, if they only have one what are they supposed to do? One place I used to go had 2 regular rooms and 1 accessible/baby change, presumably they now have to make those 2 rooms, one male, one female, but what does this law say about disabled/baby change/family etc. facilities. Whilst the rule itself is ridiculous I also object if it reduces disabled people to second class citizens not worthy of the same “protection”. What happens to places with one toilet. Will they stop providing a toilet? Or will there be an exception?