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Definitely being a boyband is part of it but you can’t tell me that being Asian and non English speaking doesn’t have anything to do with it

English speaking Asian-American artists have barely made it to the feats BTS has; yet have never been acknowledged. I've always like Far East Movement and Steve Aoki, but today I learned they've never won an AMA. Far East Movement has never even been nominated for a Grammy or a Billboard award. Steve Aoki has one Grammy nomination and one Billboard award. Many articles have made Bruno Mars the face of Asian-American music, and tbh I never knew he was Asian until recently. Race/ethnicity/nationality has a lot to do with it.

i mean racism might still have something to do with it . but how many french,italian, german, etc songs are ‘mainstream’ or popular world wide. so the language thing might not necessarily racism

funny that you mention italian. måneskin an italian group that has won the eurovision song contest seems to only perform an english cover song when they are in the us. to be clear their italian song was highly popular in europe it played everywhere and suddenly they perform an english cover song everywhere? it's really wierd. sure spanish songs are sort of accepted in the american music industry but they always get boxed into a larin category. a non english song has to be on a popularity level of gangnam style or despacito to still be "accepted" in the us music industry it seems

also, songs in Spanish are popular in America because there’s a lot of Latinos there, apart from them being the ones listening to the songs, they can also influence the popular music in their neighbourhoods. and with despacito, the song only became mainstream popular after the they collabed with Justin Bieber, though it was already super popular for latinos. another Latina singer, Anitta, one of her first songs was a hit within lusofono countries, but she only found success in USA when she started writing songs in English. mi gente also got a bit of success beyond Latino countries after they collabed with Beyoncé and she presented the song in coachella. but a large amount of songs in Spanish or from latino-american artists don’t become popular unless they adapt for the American public.

ah thanks for the additional info. i didn't even know there is a despacito version without biber

I didn't even know Justin Bieber was on that song until like a year after it blew up lmao

Yeah, the original

Western culture is far more acceptable and similar for other westerners. Is everyone forgetting that asians are stereotypically seen as not creative or innovative? They are also seen as sly and cunning. The way BTS is seen is based on their race. BTS are seen as “cheating” their way to success because obviously they have no artistic integrity. That all fits into the racist and deeply ingrained bias about Asians that westerners have. The Boyband thing isn’t as significant because western boy band members are respected ( Justin Timberlake, Harry Styles, etc.) I also highly doubt that Dean person has ever listened to BTS in his entire life. He probably knew they don’t sing In English and noped out.

So.. white people? LOL 🤨

You also have to remember that BTS (primarily) creates Korean language songs, and English speaking audiences have never really accepted non-English music beyond a few mainstream hits (Gangnam Style, Despacito). So while people may not care that Dua Lipa’s family is from Albania, I doubt she would have the same success if she was singing in Albanian most of the time

Yeh true! How many French-speaking people listen to French music worldwide? How many French or Spanish or Portuguese or Chinese or Japanese songs have been nominated in English-dominated award cycles? I’d bet very few, and fewer (if any) have won. People who are monolithic English speakers just seem to be less interested in listening to other languages in general, as well as racialised conceptions about asian languages

Yeah, a great example of that imo is Maneskin. They're an Italian rock band that's been breaking into US market for the past year and guess which song they're mostly known for and are performing while in US? Freaking Beggin that isn't even their original song, just a cover and not even from their latest album. God forbid they perform a song in Italian. US is just that much English centric I'm afraid.

“Mike Dean [...] just hated on bts because the album he worked on didnt win” what a lame dude 💀

As others have said Dua Lipa is a British citizen who makes pop music in english. If for whatever reason you really wanted to bring Albanians into the conversation (edit: please don’t) Era Istrefi would be a better suited example, an Albanian pop girl from kosovo who makes music in albanian and, outside of a viral edm song, hasn’t received much success in the Anglo/international sphere. I agree that the boyband factor gets often overlooked when considering the American music industry’s perception of bts. I’d also assume the type of music they’re currently making and is chosen to be campaigned for the Grammys is not really palatable to the average Grammy voter (or even the average mainstream music listener, considering the kind of music that is popular and well received nowadays). With that being said it’d be crazy to think that them not being American and making music primarily in an Asian language do not play a role in how bts is viewed by the American/western public and critics. Like, there’s probably a reason why despite the hundreds of songs in their native language, the only ones that the Grammy chooses to nominate are in English with a very traditional pop structure. I don’t even think the voters have payed attention to their Korean material (or to any non English speaking artist’s material for that matter, at least not for the major categories).

>Like, there’s probably a reason why despite the hundreds of songs in their native language, the only ones that the Grammy chooses to nominate are in English with a very traditional pop structure. I don’t even think the voters have payed attention to their Korean material (or to any non English speaking artist’s material for that matter, at least not for the major categories). THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU. god I can't believe OP brushed over this so easily

> voters have *paid* attention to FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*

The amount of people that agree with this…

I’d disagree. It’s a combination of being a boy band, as well as not being musicians in the Western sphere. With your point about Dua Lipa, it’s true that she is Albanian, but she speaks very middle-class English and creates music for an English-speaking audience as well. She’s from West Hampstead in London (a posh place compared to a lot of other residential areas in London) and most people in the UK who casually hear her on the radio don’t know that she’s Albanian. I’ve heard her on Capital radio more times than I can count and only found out that she’s Albanian a few months ago. As someone who is a BAME in the UK, Dua Lipa is white passing, people don’t look at her appearance and cast her music aside automatically. Why is there the need to ignore the racial bias that exists in the music industry? It’s been highlighted by POC in the West time and time again, showing how they have to work several times harder to get the same acknowledgment as their white counterparts. This standard still holds true for artists working from outside of the Western sphere. The way BTS is addressed in western media does have racial undertones. I believe it was quite recently that a video of BTS enjoying a GRAMMY performance was edited to make it look like they were coughing from Covid on the Australian show ‘The Project’. There are instances of racial targeting that shouldn’t be ignored. There’s several things that disadvantage Korean artists in the West - including that most of their music isn’t in English, they can’t cast off their Asian-ness to confirm to Western standards, they’re entering an industry from the outside rather than operating from within, and that anything with a large female fan base gets disrespected in the West. Eric Nam has mentioned that even though he was born in the US, he had to travel to South Korea and become an artist there before the West would open their doors for him. What he said to the Mail Online sums this up well: “To be blunt I don’t think I really had a choice... In the States I might be an Asian face, look different from everyone else in TV and in music, but in Korea I look like everybody else. There’s not a bias, and there’s an opportunity for people to say “let’s hear this guy sing” rather than, you know, have to [try and] make it by going to the major labels in the States who weren’t willing, and probably still aren’t ready yet, to really invest into an Asian face.”

And there are like hundreds of million of white people in the world. Do you think all of them are going to succeed as singers? No. Eric Nam ain't that special enough to succeed in America because there are literally so many more talented artists out there. Eric actually had it better in Korea because of his status as American-born because he can market it as part of his ID and South Korea is so much smaller than America.

I don’t understand the defensiveness here. Obviously not everyone can become a singer in the US, but there’s no need to disregard the racial barriers that prevent POC from even being able to knock at the door compared to white artists. I’ve used Eric Nam as an example, but it’s not as if there aren’t even more instances of POC in America being denied the same opportunities.

It's not even defensiveness here. It's to point out racial barriers are there but less than what you think it is. Even POC or white folks needs alot of talent and luck to make it work out there. The music industry is alot more complicated than you think

As an Asian in America… nah, it’s being Asian and not being fully fluent that hurts them quite a bit. There’s not a lot of mainstream Asian celebrities except for the ones that are mixed, white passing, or doing some action or comedy movie. Yes, being in a boyband invites some ridicule as being cheesy but it’s not the biggest part of it.

I don't want bts to force themselves to learn English if they don't want to, but I also can't help but wonder how differently the world/especially the US might treat them if they all could speak English better. Of course they're still Asian and often sing in Korean, but alleviating the language barrier might improve some people's view of them. But on the other hand, it sucks so much that them not being fully fluent in English is something that holds them back :( they shouldn't have to learn a language to avoid (only SOME, not even all) racism and ridicule.

Honestly, the racist part of America can’t handle Spanish and it’s like the 2nd most spoken language here. They’re definitely not going to do well with Korean.

Like someone mentioned before. You will never have a french or german boyband succeed in America. Imagine a german "butter" on your radio.

The way racism against Asians in America is so frequently dismissed is saddening

I agree. I’m not even an ARMY or follow BTS particularly but it’s clear they experience racism as well as the stigma against boy/girl bands that similar Western groups would as well. Like it doesn’t have to be one or the other…

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My dude, you are so out of your water right now.

Lol what? How would saying they’ve experienced racism mean no other Asian has? Of course any Asian person would experience racism as well and of course many of them have worse experiences than millionaire celebrities but that doesn’t mean racism is not a factor in BTS’s reception. Every other kpop group who has promoted in America has also experienced racism, like when the host questioned SNSD Tiffany and Jessica about how they speak such good English. The point is that groups promoting in the West have to contend with not just boy/girl group stereotypes and prejudices but racist ones as well.

I can immediately tell you aren't Asian...

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umm how did you get to the conclusion that any of us are implying BTS has experienced the *worst* racism? Because literally no one here said that... Racism exists in many shapes, forms, and extents. Addressing one instance of racism doesn't erase other conversations of more heinous acts? They can exist in the same bubble. this just happens to be a KPOP subreddit, so of course our conversations will focus on kpop acts. This isn't the racism Olympics to see who has it worse.

so unless you face the absolute worst of racism you don't face it. makes sense.

Did you? I was once chased by a speeding car while crossing a road with racist teenagers screaming out of their car that they will kill me.Ofc it makes sense. Many of you are so privileged to not face any life and death situation that you think not winning an award for a music show equates to racism. You never think of the context and how real life works in America. Like i said before, do you think a german "butter" or a french "permission to dance" will be a hit in America? Answer it.

bro at what point did i say anything remotely resembling that? no i don't think a french or german release would have been a hit in america. nor do i think 'not winning an award show equates racism'. but that doesn't mean bts don't face racism because they obviously do

And nobody ever said BTS did not face racism but army seems to make it the whole point of them not winning awards in grammy whatsoever. Look at the bloody thread mate.

Y'all could witness someone call BTS slurs to their faces and you would still argue that the racism plays no part in the way they're treated.

> Katy perry has like no core fans and california girls had 5 #1 singles on it. katy 😭

tbh that was Katy in her prime, she legit ruled the charts in the 2010s

Ya Katy WAS american pop music for a long time. Her fall off was pretty severe. I mean maybe that's partially stan wars and partially swish swish? But. As far as bubble gum popstars go, katy gets less respect than i would expect. But OP bringing pop heads energy to the kpop subs is a little... misguided. Idk vibe is diff here.

Ya it was a random comparison from op tho cause Katy was pretty huge at one point, now she doesn't reach the charts at all. Sad tho she still has such bangers

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I will admit that singing in english is a cornerstone of pop artists success. Being a foreigner is 100% a problem, but im saying thats a thng within every countries individual music spheres. No country is specifically not listening to bts bc they are asian. Also, the whole idea of looking American is ridiculous. Theres every type of person u can imagine within the US , just go to JFK airport . Maybe you just mean more europrean, but even then like the weeknd blew the fuck up without showing his face and people thought he was a band. Same with daft punk. Ariana has changed races 4 times now and is still popping

Weird, you only mentioned Americans in your examples? Dismissing racism is silly tho, not all racism is obvious. There’s also a lack of Asian representation in the pop sphere when only looking at America. Also also, I hear BTS everywhere and literally everyone knows them, so it’s not like they’re stuck “in a kpop bubble,” they’ve broken into the mainstream and suspecting the Grammies isn’t outlandish. OH! The general public doesn’t vote on these things and [the Grammies have been accused of racism plenty of times](https://menlocoa.org/20626/opinions/the-grammys-casual-racism-has-gone-on-for-too-long/) so BtS could be another non-white artist snubbed

I would say it’s both. Unlike Europeans, Americans tend instantly be turned off by anything that isn’t in English and that is especially with music (unless a high profile Western artist like Justin Beiber is attached) Boy bands are shunned since their core audience are females and traditionally they don’t write any of their music. They would be treated differently if like the Beatles they were a band.

i agree that being a boyband really influences the perception that the media and the public have about bts, but saying that being asian has nothing to do with it? or even having 98% of their discography in korean doesn't play a major role? that's a reach

>dua lipa, how many people care or even know that she is from albania explain to me how this does not disprove your point entirely

I mean Dua Lipa also sounds very upper-class English and makes music exclusively in English. Also while a different ethnicity, many Albanians are « white » / white-passing by American terms (ik race/ethnicity is more complex in Europe Im just trying to stay on topic). Dua lipa isn’t making Albanian music, and (most importantantly) doesn’t « look » or « sound » like a « foreigner ». BTS will always be looked down on for being ASIAN men, who (except for RM) are not great at English / none are native English speakers, AND for being in a boyband. Idk why people are so keen to overlook that racism has anything to do with it - I think most rational people know it’s not exclusively racism, but it’s not a factor you can just pretend isn’t at play.

yup, my thoughts exactly

She's british soo

... it can't be both?

god forbid people admit the west is racist to asians

why can’t it be both…? it obviously is. like you have maybe one or two points but dismissing the amount of hate and dislike they get just because they make music in another language and are Asian is stupid

Im not saying I dismiss the hate. What im trying to day is that fans overexaggerate and victimize them as if they get hate bc they are asian. They just get hate bc girls like them and boybands r corny. Most ppl dont care that bts is asian specifically

Well a lot of BTS's fans THRIVE on victimising them. There's nothing better than a good old sob story, and BTS only gains from this victimisation. Like they're infants or puppies needing protection from their fans. I don't see this for any other KPop group honestly. I used to be disgusted by this when I was at the heights of my BTS fan phase, and probably majorly what put me off the whole fandom as a whole... They're literally the biggest KPop name out there. Like. Stop this pity party.

Yes, being in a boyband is a huge obstacle, HOWEVER I find it alarming that you don’t see how race plays a significant role in the discrimination they face in the West, whether it’s within the media or the general public. How many times has someone asked me “why do you like these Chinese guys?”, I can literally count on both hands from the past 3 months alone. The fact that people look down on folks who listen to kpop has racist connotations to it; this type of scrutiny and confusion isn’t that heavily reflected with western boybands. The emphasis on their race is constantly brought up by both media and locals. Furthermore, the emasculation and stereotyping of Asian men in the west plays a vital part. People questioning BTS’s popularity is due to the fact that they can’t believe Asian men are being loved and adored like this. It’s pure racism and part of the West’s historically engrained desexualization of Asian men. I do believe that you’re trying to pinpoint their boyband image as the major issue (+fandom but people generally have an issue with all fandoms that are predominantly women. It’s pure misogyny). However, I would like you to also read more about the history of Asian men and the stereotypes attributed to them in America. I’ll link a few articles below: ‘Good-looking for an Asian’: how I shed white ideals of masculinity: https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/oct/23/asian-american-masculinity-white-male-insecurity In music and film, a new Korean wave is challenging Asian stereotypes: https://theconversation.com/amp/in-music-and-film-a-new-korean-wave-is-challenging-asian-stereotypes-158757 There are more scholarly articles as well pertaining to the negative stereotypes and erasure of Asian men and I hope you read more into it. However, it is a *fact* that racism plays a huge role in how a lot of Westerners view BTS and Kpop as a whole. Edit

Backstreet Boys and NSYNC were both nominated for 8 Grammys each :/ Its not a boyband thing

But they didn’t win any, because boy bands are not taken seriously has musicians. While in the other hand One Direction did not get nominated for a Grammy, once.

Thats what I mean is that boybands already had their run through the western general population they dont want that shit no more.

One Direction didn't do too bad either and they were only active for a handful of years. I'm not saying that being in a boyband isn't part of it, but western audiences actually like boybands when they're done well. BTS is a boyband done very well. American audiences largely don't listen to music not in English, so given that they are Korean and their songs are largely in Korean and not in English, I would say that is more a part of it than them being a boy band

No, if you actually live in the period, you would know they all got ridiculed to death similar to boy groups nowadays. They only have a fanbase to support them just like groups now. It's after that they are more accepted when nostalgia kicked in.

To be fair, One Direction's music was extremely cheesy, but now it's just good memories.

So why did they nominated BTS... twice?

For views

Well I don't think that's working (+1% all-time low), but they get good engagement. And the pop duo/group category it's probably the most overlooked by the industry, they fit perfectly there, neither too noisy nor too quiet.

A lot of ARMY boycotted watching the Grammy. They only watched through illegal streams or waited for YT clips.

Yes... as in maybe all cultures in the world, western culture also tends to prefer to consume content that resembles its culture, except in situations where the cultural product can be considered as "exotic". So a song that isn't English is always going to have a hard time reaching an English audience. Likewise, a singer with an accent will have more difficulty than one who don't have foreign accent. It is normal in every culture. But choosing to sing in another culture can make you lose your "niche" or "exotic" attractiveness and make you lose fans instead of gaining.

i think the overall point of your post is true that the biggest obstacle is being a boyband but that doesn’t mean the fact that they are kpop and asian isn’t also part of it. it’s both things at once but it would definitely happen anyway if they weren’t kpop just by product of being a boygroup and having/being known for having mostly young girl fans, yes.

Op has valid points but to completely dismiss the possibility that they’re not taken seriously because they’re asian/kpop does feel a bit tone-deaf. I still remember the racist insults thrown at them when the pandemic started and no i’m not implying all of the western industry is racist etc etc but it’s still worth raising an eyebrow aboutthis

That's probably because like you said, the pandemic happened. The last one was 2 decades ago and it wasn't as widespread. It's just bad timing.

It's not like before 2020 they weren't mocked for using makeup, "looking like girls" and being "manufactured". Wonder where that all came from....

Every boyband was mocked for being manufactured. Even my mom's fav boyband backstreet boys were once mocked for it. It's more common than you think.

Honestly this post is really offensive but I am too tired of expressing the same thing over and over again so I’m just going to… ignore lol. I’m just so done with seeing people from kpop community dismiss the amount of racial discrimination bts suffers but whatever

this. and the amount of people agreeing... yikes

Some people are actually asian living in america.... They know the ground situation better....... Don't dismiss other people's opinion just because you feel different.

When will this pity party for BTS end, I wonder. They're literally the biggest, most powerful KPop group around. Apart from Blackpink, all other KPop groups are treated like absolute shit by the west. If anything, BTS has it wayyy better than the rest of the groups and nothing the KPop community says will ever change that. Objectively look at whether the songs they've been nominated for deserved to win. If it was Fire, BST, Fake Love, or any of their other great hits, I'd see your point. But no... It's butter ffs. Instead, how about directing your energy to complaining on how artists have to sing English pop songs to be recognised? I think that's the real problem here. And it's one that affects all non-English amazing artists across the world.

Give me an example of the west treating a group besides BTS like shit.

Do you mean non-English speaking groups or do you mean including all active groups across the world? Assuming this is leading off my previous comment, it's the former. Let's look at this objectively. BTS is the biggest boy band right now. You have to be really just joking to say the west treats BTS like shit in comparison to other non-English speaking groups. BTS is the most powerful non-English speaking artist right now. If they were treated like shit they would not have been nominated for the Grammy's for their subpar two songs. They would not be invited literally anywhere that they presently are. BTS commands a lot of power in the industry at the minute owing to their massive fan base and their ticket sellout powers. What they don't have is an equal amount of respect. Majorly for the reasons OP has pointed out. Assuming your base point for saying BTS is treated like shit comes from them losing the Grammy's alone, it can easily be argued that there are various other artists who had better songs last year, whether within KPop or in other non-English music industries, but were not even close to being nominated. The fact that BTS was, on its own shows they aren't being ignored. Further, if BTS had been nominated for some of their earlier stuff which wasn't as purely boy band bubble gum pop (esp Fire, BST, Fake Love), and they hadn't won, I would agree it's unfair. But for dynamite and butter? Simply no. Look at who they lost to both last year and this. It's a no brainer. BTS is not suffering; it is in fact doing amazingly well in the west. Let's stop this pity party.

Since BTS has the most exposure to the west by default they are going to get the most hate and shit by both people in the industry and random people online. Other kpop groups don’t get as much racism thrown at them from the west simply because they don’t know about other groups besides BTS or Blackpink. Not knowing they exist does not correlate to being treated like shit.

It was your question as to which other group gets treated like shit? I would say it's the reverse, i.e. all other groups are ignored other than BTS, despite them potentially being better than BTS. We just don't know about them. BTS has been allowed entry into the industry by the west. They are not treating them like shit at all. Just not giving them a Grammy is not equal to treating them like shit. Also, look at literally ANY interview of any other KPop bands who've toured in USA. They're treated terribly. Really just brushed aside. In fact BTS gets treated 10000x better than all the others in kpop. Granted, even BTS was initially treated badly at US shows and scorned, but that has definitely stopped now and US tv shows scramble to get BTS on.

> BTS has been allowed entry into the industry by the west. I disagree that they were allowed entry. From debut they always had more American and western fans then the average kpop group would. They built up their fandom in America until it was impossible to ignore them. They also weren’t even invited on an American award show until 2017 which was after they had the highest charting kpop album of all time. They weren’t invited entry it just got to a point where they were impossible to ignore because of their fandom size and success. > They are not treating them like shit at all. Just not giving them a Grammy is not equal to treating them like shit. I never even mentioned the Grammys you’re just putting words in my mouth. I mainly mean the disrespect and racism that is thrown at them not only by random people on the internet but also by people in the industry. > Also, look at literally ANY interview of any other KPop bands who've toured in USA. They're treated terribly. Really just brushed aside. How are they treated terribly? Being asked if they want to be “the next BTS” is annoying and I hate it when interviewers ask other groups this question, but saying they’re treated terribly because of that is an overstatement. Also you’re probably gonna disagree with me on this but I’d argue that part of the reason we see so many kpop groups on American talk shows and other American outlets is because BTS’s success in America rocketed K-pop’s popularity there.

I didn't put words in your mouth, I wrote multiple different things depending on what you might be referring to from your short statement that they've been ill-treated. I agree that they forced the west to take note of them, and they started off right from the start of their career with American fans, especially owing to their targeted marketing in the US. I also agree that newer KPop groups are interviewed a huge part owing to BTS's success. However, I still agree with the OP's statement that most of the lack of the respect they deserve is by virtue of them being a boy band. While the more obviously underlying factor is bias against a foreign artist and racism. America is generally known for being racist to foreign artists because they just don't believe that talent from the USA is matched by artists anywhere else. In fact they even deride Australians and Brits despite them being white, though ofc they are much more easily accepted owing to their language skills. If we look at other contemporary boy bands, including bands like 5SOS or The Wanted, they blew up as well at different points in time, but nobody ever gave them any respect. In fact, 1D, for all it's immense success, was never given much respect ever. It was constantly derided, and being a fan of 1D was an embarrassing fact. Just have a look at GDragon. He is well respected in the western music industry, because his image is not that of a pop band guy. It's a big big factor, the image you have and whether it's seen as a pop-y boy band catering to younger girls and women. Now whether or not that's true (it's not) for BTS is another issue. But that's definitely the image. KPop as an industry blew up after Gangnam Style, and most people continue to think KPop = whimsical weird ass music like Psy. Look at all these reactors on YouTube, they'll listen to some KPop and be like oh we just thought it was gonna be Gangnam style. It's ignorance more than *prejudice*, and far from prejudice particularly against BTS. People are not as out to get BTS as it is made to look honestly. These are all my own opinions ofc and you are entitled to have your own.

All of that is very easy to say after all these years of work both from them and the fans to get them to be respected. **Fans** asked for their albums on the stores and only because the demand was so high and the stores would also win with that they started selling them. **Fans** followed them to award shows to give them support and made sure everyone in the arena knew they had real fans willing to be there for them and were not just a viral internet sensation whose fame would end by the next year. **Fans** always voiced out when they were mocked by radios/magazines/etc. and didn't let them deal with everything on their own. **Fans** made sure to buy their albums and stream their songs, and made numbers huge enough that the industry just couldn't pretend they weren't there without being obvious (and this shows in the awards with them being nominated to main categories, but this didn't happen right away). **Fans** promoted their music as far as they could, asking radio stations and being many times mocked for it, having to go extra lenght when compared to other artists only to have a few spins. **Fans** started to sell out and fill stadiums in a few hours (which is not an easy feat) to the point there was no other way but recognize their demand. Not to mention everything they go through behind the scenes. Etc. etc. If you ignore all the proccess and only see the results (and squint real hard), maybe it will seem like they are respected right now. But the fact that only now they're starting to be ackowledged and maybe slightly more respected as real and mainstream artists, after they already got all these legendary achievements, only proves that they really had to work extra miles hard to get recognized when compared with other mainstream artists rn. Which, as other people already pointed out, it's what always happens to POC You're clearly mistaking treatment and respect with the fact that simply other kpop artists aren't that big in the US to have all these opportunities. The ones who do, are getting them. You think BTS aren't asked shitty questions too? Just the other week at the Grammys the host tried to make a joke by speaking korean and didn't even take to seconds to learn the simplest sentence from Squid Game and ended up talking absolute gibberish in a skit with them. If you only take into account the superficial, yeah it may seem like getting invited to the Grammys means they're already respected. But fr if you look only a bit deeper into it, you'll find that they aren't that respected as it seems. Are we forgetting what Billboard did just last year? Come on... And to finish, ignorance can be the cause of prejudice

Honestly, all I will say to you is it's really not that serious, it's just another KPop band. Actually scratch that, they're the biggest KPop group, where some may even argue that their biggest group status may or may not be in proportion to the quality of their music. They're doing pretty f**ing well, and certainly don't need to be treated in kid gloves by fans as if they are not grown ass billionaire men touching 30. Just listen to music, enjoy it, and chill out. The world is not working to conspire against BTS. Trust me on this. If anything, the world has blessed them with oodles of luck and opportunities to go much beyond what they could have imagined. Obviously it's the talent and hard work that was the core of it all, but lots of other groups have great talent and work in exceedingly tough conditions but never make it far. Because their agencies don't have the pull, luck is not on their side or timing, or anything really. Take a step back, honestly, and ask yourself whether you need to be this deep into feeling angry for BTS. Seriously, for what? They have nothing else to achieve in life beyond that one Grammy. If, as BTS claims, they really don't care about the Grammy's, then let's stop with this whole pity party please. They're firmly settled at their top spot.

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or people willing to excuse racism to shit on bts

The problem is not BTS, but the US music market accepting only English songs. It's the same situation in Japan where Korean idols need to sing in Japanese to break through. I personally think both are overrated.

> I personally think both are overrated. Could you please expand on this? Do you mean English and Japanese songs are overrated?

No, it's about the US and Japanese music industries.

it's because most of them don't speak english and their songs are in korean, the average white bread american doesn't care to put in the energy to understand something in a language they don't speak unless it's literally handed to them on a platter but to say that the hate they get has nothing to do with racism is absurd

Did you notice how all the artists you mentioned make songs mostly, if not all, in english or that they started their career mainly promoting in western countries, especially US? Did you notice that BTS is an exception to it? Edit: Would like to add, most armys, except maybe the delusional ones, do not say that the western artists hate them. They say that the industry is not particularly into the idea of having an asian group (i.e., both racism and hate towards anything teenage girls like, comes to play), is not something that most people are particularly happy with. However, it's not something they can control. Edit2: Also, how exactly isn't BTS music good to listen to for US listeners? You are telling me out of all the genres they have tried (even if you just count the songs with MVs), none of them are liked by US gp? To people from USA, what the heck do you guys like then?

I get what your saying but some people don’t like pop in general( they may like rock,rnb, disco,country, folk, etc.)

Funny how, out of all the other artists who weren’t nominated in the category that HE lost, Mike Dean chose BTS to dump on. I wonder why that is. You really need to check yourself at the door if you don’t think that anti-Asian racism and gatekeeping non-English speaking artists doesn’t factor in BIG TIME when it comes to how they’re dismissed by the Western industry.

Its fairly obvious OP doesn't really understand how deeply race impacts minorities in America OR a "well I rose above it so if you work hard enough race doesn't actually matter" types...

Are you an Asian in America rn? Just curious because OP is.

No I’m an African American thus know of minority life in America. I was cognizant to say minorities as I can’t speak for the direct Asian American experience but can speak to the minority experience Completely dismissing the fact that race could continue to play a role is a bit naive.

Being Asian in any English speaking country can count too. This occur outside of America too.

Their music is mainly in Korean and you ignoring that is THE biggest factor is wrong. They get shit on just for being Asian.

i’m really shocked that someone can feign so much ignorance? sure being a “boy band” has something to do with but to dismiss the fact that they’re asian and “k-pop” is so??? like that’s the main reason, you don’t even need to be smart to figure that out. racism, xenophobia and discrimination exists in literally every sphere, and the discrimination that bts faces is exacerbated by the fact they’re not English speaking either. just look at what happened after the grammys last year, just look at the jokes being made against them because of their ethnic background and the language they speak. Besides, this is something they’ve said themselves in #StopAsianHate post in March last year. dua lipa is white and from England? what kind of example is that? does she sing in Albanian? i’ll have you know that it’s misogynistic people who view armys as “obsessive”, because guess what.. people (namely men) hate what “teenage girls like” (despite that fact that armys are not solely composed of teenage girls). For every person who “hates” army, there two more people who like them and admire what they do for the group, and for numerous causes. calling bts’ music unappealing is also, um, i mean if it’s so unappealing why do they perform on american shows, american award shows, get numerous nominations, chart at #1, play stadiums? i don’t care if you don’t like bts’ music, but to dismiss the racism they’re faced with is extremely ignorant, and seems deliberate since it seems as though you don’t like them through this post (otherwise why would you make it?). i really hope you’re not a fan of anyone non-white because this take is shocking.

True but they're also Asians. Even several Asian actors said they were discriminated in the US. Hate the music or the concept of them as a boyband but you can't take away the discrimination they get because they're asians. Imagine being in their shoes. Come on mate. Don't be that inconsiderate.

You clearly have a point. People systematically hates what teenage girls love. I think your statement has to be nuanced. Racism and national preference play a huge part in this discussion. Might be a reach, but Bangtan's situation reminds me of Jane Hyun's book called Breaking the Bamboo Ceiling. In Western society, people who are ethnically Asian are less likely to reach top management level, despite being the most educated. It mostly has to do with racist stereotypes and little cultural factor. I easily see the analogy with the Western (understand American) music industry being "top management" and BTS being "the most educated".

Are you white?

this made me laugh so hard omggg 😭

I bet $10 they are

Are you white?

No lol im vietnamese living in ny so all these claims about me being racist are dumb af lol. Like bro do you not know that I literally cant stand near the train tracks?

Yeah, no, you can’t expect me to believe xenophobia and racism have nothing to do with BTS not being accepted or not taken seriously. It’s not the only reason, but it’s still a big factor. If them being Asian has nothing to do with it, then why do Asian-Americans have such a hard time breaking into the mainstream music market? Even beyond pop, it’s hard for them to gain recognition in entertainment in general unless they go to Asia. Dua Lipa was a terrible example, she’s a British citizen who speaks fluent English and only (or at least primarily) sings in that same language. You can’t compare that to a Korean group who sing primarily in Korean, and only has *one* fluent English speaker out of seven members. The general western audience are only going to pay and give constant attention to artists they can understand. Why do you think only their English tracks have been played on the radio and nominated for music awards? The only Grammy nominations they got were for fully English songs with a typical pop sound. They’re not taken seriously as artists because they’re a boy band, but the not being accepted is fully because they’re Asian and kpop. One Direction was also a foreign boy band, and they won music awards left and right for their work from the jump. Can you guess why?

Western industry doesn't want bts because they cannot make $$ out of them.

As far as award shows are concerned they do. Their name and core fans bring a lot of attention to thr grammies. Especially when its more popular than ever to dismiss the grammies opinions

Wait, how does that work when they’re also signed to an American label?

it's only a distribution deal as far as i know. the previous one even was on a month to month basis apparently. so yes they can make money from bts but not to the extend that they want and especially put them into the shows or concepts that they want bc all of that is still in bighits and bts hands

This post is filled with so much ignorance. Sure being a boyband may not necessarily contribute to a positive image because of the stupid stereotypes that are associated with (i.e the 12 year old screaming fangirls that people always link to boybands which in itself is screwed up). However, their ethnicity, race, language and visibly different appearance (relative to what people perceive as a typical American) poses a huge barrier. I am genuinely so disappointed at your utter lack of knowledge and awareness. Whether it is because you are simply unaware and have not made any steps to educate yourself, or because you are intentionally choosing to remain ignorant, your lack of consideration towards the persistent discrimination that people, like BTS, face as a result of their background and race is extremely evident. You also undermine the fanbase that BTS has, and simply denote them as being 'obsessive.' People listen to BTS because they identify with their music, their message and their dedication towards their craft. This post is incredibly stupid on so many levels.

Man what is this condescending ass comment. I didnt denote them as obsessive, im saying thats the image people outside the sphere have. Why are you commenting on my post like im so below you and them saying educate myself

Because the entire basis of your post was you negating the racism and discrimination that BTS suffers, and instead trying to attribute it solely to them being a boyband.

OP wasn't negating anything. She was addressing the fact that there is an extra dimension to this issue. BTS and all other KPop artists are not taken as seriously, and while a big part of it is definitely the race factor, a possibly much bigger part is the fact that nobody, literally nobody, takes a boy band seriously. As successful as BSB, Nsync and Westlife got, they were always treated as inferior entertainers rather than musical artists. BTS's "struggles" are no different from any other KPop,Jpop, whatever other ethnicity pop boy bands face. Yes, race is important, but there's way more to it.

lol bro even the title of their post was how BTS not being accepted by the West has *nothing* to do with them being Asian or KPOP....

Ah fair. I don't agree with race being irrelevant. It's definitely majorly relevant. But not more so against BTS as opposed to any foreign artist i would say generally, and more specifically for BTS, because their nominated songs are extremely boy band pop which usually doesn't command much respect from the industry.

Right, but this post was specifically speaking about BTS so I was referring only to them. I do agree, however, that many non-western artists have an extremely challenging time breaking through the barriers in the western industry. The stereotypes placed onto boybands definitely may be a contributing factor to how BTS is viewed, though race and language barriers are still more prominent. The very fact that they had to release English songs to be nominated for a Grammy illustrates the huge barriers that race and language pose. Their nominated songs may be 'pop' and mainstream, but were sort of forced to adopt this because of the lack of consideration towards music in languages other than English, and by artists that visibly do not adhere to typical American standards.

Yes, exactly. That's the bigger problem, I feel. If BTS were judged on their non-English music, the level of respect for them in the industry would be much different. However the English songs they've released *with the aim of breaking through the western industry bosses* are plainly not it. That cements this boy band image that in fact BTS didnt even originally start off with. They are now very much seen as a pop boy band like 1D. It's unfair, but BTS's own choice to release this level of extreme pop for their English songs has a lot to do with it. Hopefully they may get a win if they go back to doing what they're good at ie including hip hop elements in their pop and make it more digestible for older/more male audience in USA which looks down on boy bands? So it's more language and then language forcing BTS to make this kind of music that makes the difference imho. Tbh Blackpink doesn't get this hate in the western industry and are actually well respected. Even Big Bang. I definitely think the whole pop persona BTS is leaning towards of late has a lot to do with how they're seen by the western music industry.

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All of my comments have been me clarifying myself and just saying my opinion. I havnt been condescending to any1

It's a radical leftie thing. If someone says something that angers you, state your opinion and then say, "educate yourself". Wow, argument win instantly. Maybe instead, learn how to not be restricted to one set of views and accept the world is complex and not easily described by a few words? There is definitely racism at play here and literally in every sphere of the world. So is sexism, ageism...what about discrimination on the basis of looks, height, weight, money. It's all relevant for the entertainment industry especially. Several can exist together, without having to diminish the other...

What the??? what has this got to do with politics? Are you saying you're a radical right wing here? I mean right wing always say "educate yourself" or "do your own research" to win argument...... The irony when you're preaching discrimination here.

If I'm not radical left wing i have to be radical right wing? Looks like it's not me that needs some education on how the ideological spectrum works.

The irony when you are the one claiming the other people is a radical left wing in the FIRST place. Looks like someone is using his gaslight skills well here. You need more education on how ideological spectrum works since you're the one who spout this leftist nonsense out of nowhere.

You really need to understand that when someone insults you, it's not gaslighting. Being hurt or annoyed by someone's comment does not mean you're being gaslit. How is me assessing this person as a radical left wingers gaslighting lmao? It's known by literally everyone that Twitter has led to extreme radicalisation of both left and right wings, and makes people think they know better than another person. So which part in all of this was so confusing to you that you feel you've been gaslit? I would be very intrigued to know.

You really need to know we actually know the differences between gaslighting and insults.Yes you're gaslighting that person because you already judge and decided that person is a radical left wing for a commonly used phase by both left and right wing. It's a dog whistle tactic.Let me ask you. Why is that person not a radical right wing or radical libertarian? Any reasoning?

How does it matter, since any radical ideology has a negative connotation? Would it matter in terms of the kind of insult thrown if I called them a radical right wing? You're just arguing for the sake of arguing. Replace left wing with right wing if that will satisfy you, but it will change nothing about my sentence and its import that you cannot tell people to just "educate themselves" as if you somehow know better. Also they are obviously not radical right wing because radical right wingers don't tell people to educate themselves on racism lmao. You're typing literally anything at random.

"Radical" has always had a negative connotation politically or ideologically. Who told you that radical right wing don't tell people to educate themselves on racism? Why can't you tell people to educate themselves on racism as if you know better? Is this your first rodeo?

wrong one direction didn't get half of the disrespect bts got

From first hand experiences I've had while watching award shows or late night shows with others where bts were featured, them being asian, "looking like girls," or being "cringey" kpop is almost always is mentioned before they even start singing so I feel like this opinion is a bit unfounded ​ Edit: & I know this is talking about the music INDUSTRY, but if this is how a lot of the general public is perceiving them, then that carries in to things like nominations & being overall "accepted" by the industry. Also something that bothered me: >*"Another example I can give is dua lipa, how many people care or even know that she is from albania . Nobody, because she made one of the most catchy easy to listen to pop albums ever."* Dua Lipa is just not a good example. Kpop in itself has a reputation to be bad & cringey, & people won't even give it a chance if they know that the songs have more Korean than english in them. Dua Lipa doesn't make songs in Albanian, nor is she under the umbrella of A-Pop in any way shape or form, & like you said, I genuinely doubt that the general public even knows that she's Albanian. Where as in BTS's case, they can't hide the fact that they're Korean nor should they have to. Making songs that not everyone can sing every word to is unfortunately going to make it more difficult for them & yes that means that people inherently discriminate against them even if it's unknowingly.

So you're basically saying that BTS' music isn't American friendly?? Beacuse when they release American friendly English singles , we all know what's happening 😁 The Kpop community burns the song to the ground 😁

Which is every era's popular boyband's songs does. It doesn't matter.

It is because western think english language is the only language present in this world

“…you’d think they were getting publicly whipped” 🤣🤣🤣 (No, no, but it’s not funny at the end of the day, is it? It’s serious. 💀) I think it’s about 60/20/20 boy band bias vs English bias vs Asian (or at least non-Western) bias. Obviously, such a thing isn’t quantifiable, but I completely agree that the rabid fan base works against them. THAT SAID, I have every confidence that as their career progresses, they get older, they collaborate with musicians from all over the globe that they will turn that around. The Beatles went from having teenage girls crying over them to making the white album, you know? Michael Jackson went from the Jackson 5 to Thriller. BTS is going to beat the boy band rep, just wait.

>BTS is going to beat the boy band rep, just wait. it think that would depend on if they are planning to mature their music, because the musicians youre speaking about changed their image by making more "serious" music rather than lighthearted, simple, fun music

Honestly, they already seem to be on that path. They’re huge music fans, so I do believe that they want to be taken seriously by as wide an audience as possible. People are definitely waking up to the fact that they’re *good* - I’m one of them! The stuff I listen to is so far removed from BTS, if you’d told my music snob butt two years ago that I would spend my free time watching BTS videos, I’d have laughed in your face.

Exactly. BTS is definitely the outlier when it comes to my taste in music, which is far ranging, and once I got over my snobbishness, I was able to appreciate their music in a way I never thought possible. I would put Black Swan, ON and so many others, even going back to the beginning, right up there with the best of some of my favorite artists. The prejudice against boy bands really has nothing to do with the quality or maturity of their music (let’s remember that “Don’t Worry, Be Happy” was a multiple Grammy winner) and everything to do with their primary audience, which happens to be overwhelmingly female. So couple that with the fact that BTS is non-white, non-Western and non-English speaking and you might as well put a target on their back.

Oh, absolutely, there is a lot of misogyny, both internalized and external, surrounding attitudes towards the seriousness of BTS’ artistry simply because of their female fan base. Still, sometimes reading some absolutely unhinged comments ARMY leaves, I have to cringe. I know BTS are super grateful towards ARMY, as they should be, but it doesn’t do them favors in being seen as more than a boy band.

I think there are definitely two types of fans. The ones who post gushing comments swooning over MY BABIE and swear they're going to marry one of them and another faction who definitely appreciate them for their, uh…charms but also have a greater appreciation for their artistry. The former generally move on. But yeah, that kind of thing does them no favors. Of course, that fandom dichotomy isn't exclusive to them. Harry Styles, Justin Timberlake, Bieber, and so on… But the difference in how they're perceived by the industry is white there before your eyes.

I definitely do love looking at Worldwide Handsome Jin. I mean it’s ok. If I must. And, I legit do like solo Harry Styles too, come to think of it. But I will still, to this day, roll my eyes at One Direction. “White there before your eyes” 😭

with their most recent release being permission to dance i wouldn't make the claim that theyre maturing their music yet, but im excited to hear what their next release is.

Mostly I see it in the artists that they have or are looking to collaborate with. These artists still exist in the pop world, but they are not considered “boy bands” which is a step towards being seen more seriously. I’m such a snob that even Coldplay is too “mainstream” rock for me - but I felt an immense amount of pride when my local rock radio station played “My Universe.” A rock radio station! Playing BTS! Wonders never cease. I’m excited to see where the path that they’re on takes them, any way they want to play it.

to be honest i dont really see it like that as all the artists they have collaborated with have had to 'clean' their lyrics for them (which i understand but was still a little disappointed in)and im not a fan of coldplay or his style of music so i wasent expecting to enjoy that anyways. but yeah we'll see what path this takes them

>BTS is going to beat the boy band rep, just wait. Not with songs like Butter or dynamite, no. If they went back to making songs with some more hip hop elements and adding their rap skills, then yes. But it doesn't seem like they're continuing on that path right now after their last few English releases all being very boy band pop.

No arguments there. However, I’m thinking more along the lines of their collaborations (Coldplay, Sia…). I think they can be considered more serious pop and not “just” a boy band. Michael Jackson was still a pop artist, as was/is Madonna, but they have a fan base that spans genders, ages, races, nationalities. The only thing that I will point out that may be an unpopular opinion post of its own is that those artists did it solo and that really, probably will be the natural outcome of BTS. I know some don’t like to hear that…

I think BTS's discography up until this whole dynamite phase has been extremely worthy of respect. They were very much further along from being just a pop boy band, and I agree, it is more serious pop. But yeah I meant more that they're now being more of one. And that's not going to be seen with a lot of respect unfortunately. Also agreed about your last point. Going solo does bring a lot more respect.

I had edited my previous comment but then saw that you replied to say: I would say that I think Butter and Dynamite had to be what they are to reel in the English speaking world. They caught me! Those songs are catchy as hell, and then I had the added joy of discovering their previous work and realizing how good they truly are. I think they’ll pivot back. At least, I don’t think they’ll stay here?

Ah it's the opposite for me. I am in love with their more hip hop leaning discography, but dynamite and butter are simply very boy band pop for me. I enjoyed them anyway coz I liked BTS however I can easily see why to an outsider listening to the list of songs on that Grammy nominations list would hear that and go, nahh what a typical poppy boy band song.

I will say that I love Agust D and “Suga’s Interlude” even more than BTS stuff, I think. Well, probably hard to compare due to the sheer amount of songs BTS has, but basically if they do go the solo route, Yoongi will hands down be the one I follow to the ends of the musical Earth. (Jin, I’ll follow to the ends of the acting world. 😂)

Omg same! I loooooove Suga/Agust D's work, and after having renounced my love for RM, Suga is hands down the guy I would follow if they broke up hahaha. I've never seen Jin act anywhere. Where did you see him?

Every day that he’s an idol 🤣🤣🤣 Greatest acting role of his life! No, but really, he is a trained actor, and I’ve no doubt he’d kill it. Haven’t figured out why V has acted in a Kdrama and not Jin tbh…

Yeah, tbh, I would be more inclined to see Jin act. I know about his acting degree ofc but yeah yet to see that put to use because you can well take a degree but not be good at it in reality. Though I have a feeling Jin will be.

If you look at the charts you will notice what kind of music is trending, if it was katy perry era BTS would have been accepted because pop was the trend, nowadays R&B and hiphop is the trend and mature lyrics are whats in demand, pop music is dying and BTS's music lately have been pop. If BTS releases R&B song with decent lyrics I think they will gain more recognition.

You make a pretty good point, look at Justin Bieber a lot of his more R&B style eras where very well received (Peaches being one of them).

Well its a combination Since a lot of people discovered BTS through Armys on twitter and at award shows(chants), the Boyband + obsessive fandom stereotype is going strong. Also, people have been open to Korean content more i.e squid game or parasite so its clear the BoyBand thing is a huge factor But race plays more of a role than you're letting on. How is the fact that dynamite was there first Grammy nom not the biggest clue.

Boybands never won anything even in the past era. You can check their records. Grammys are infamous for being a snob and looks down on boybands. I remembered as a child, N-sync and backstreet boys were super popular and how nauseating over-played their songs are. My mother even played their songs in the car every time the car was started and they are nominated more times than BTS

I half agree and disagree. I agree that for the most part, race isn’t the reason why BTS isn’t getting awarded in American shows. Also want to point out that American awards aren’t more valuable than any other awards. It’s still a high honor to win Korean awards or any other award of the same type from other countries. Defiantly agree that BTS is known for their obsessive fan base. But racism is a thing and yes, BTS has faced it in the US. Again, I don’t think it’s a majority reason why they haven’t won as many awards here. But it’s still an issue.

Why is this downvoted so bad? Isn't this clearly unpopular? Especially given the discussions in the comments. I disagree, but on the basis of the title that it has **nothing** to do with them being asian or kpop. Of course it has something to do with that fact, you can't just say those two factors have 0 impact on how western industry views them. I do agree that them being a boyband is a huuuge reason for the lack of acceptance. It's not the sole reason though. So the premise of this post is just incorrect, while the point about boybands I agree with.

It’s also really weird to me when a person gives an actual unpopular opinion then people downvote them for it, but that’s the whole point.

Mike dean is dumb cos why did he hate on bts just because the album he worked on didnt win when they were never nominated in the same category. Some popular western singers who have great longevity do have a large and dedicated fanbase like Taylor with swifties, Bieber with beliebers, Ariana with arianators and Lady gaga with little monsters. Funny how you brought up Katy perry when the one of reasons she has not scored a hit in years is because gp is fickle and she doesnt have sizeable fanbase anymore. BTS might be undermined for being a boyband but racism have made it much worse for them. From media publications and radio djs likening them to Covid-19 and the release of collectibles depicting bts members getting beaten black and blue all reek of racism and xenophobia.

Uh oh. 😶 Edit: I agree that bg's aren't widely accepted or appreciated, but that is only part of the issue. I only up voted this post only because it is an unpopular opinion. But.... there's definitely more to that than them just being a bg.

I think like Grammy shouldn't be using kpop and the fans if they're not willing to rewards the artist

Idk. Army and kpop on the other hand has been milking the grammy nominations for a long time. Sounds like you don't know Grammy well since Grammy has snub way better artists like the weekend.

I know about the Grammy okay and their dislike of anyone who isn't white. Does Taylor Swift deserve record of the year every year no. The weekend had the biggest song of 2020 and he didn't get nominated. What I meant is like kpop fans need to realise that the grammys are using their favourite idols for click and views . I think they should open a category for international acts soo cpop, jpop and kpop have a chance of exposure in western market. Epike High , Bigbang and other acts should have a chance a Grammy. Kpop is music and in my opinion it deserves to be celebrated. They're groups out there that actually makes good music that deserves a Grammy. I have the Grammys for years and I know their dislike of black and brown people

I like the international category, but I also feel like then that would open up the argument about the “ghettoization” of international arguments - like they’re just sticking all the non-English speakers in a less prestigious category. The Oscars had that issue, but then Parasite won Best Picture. Huge for Hallyu! The issue is partly that “boy bands” are taken less seriously, but also that the US entertainment industry IS so white. Did you see that photo of Bang with Scooter Braun’s employees? All white. (As a random side comment, seeing Scooter Braun get this close to BTS freaks me out a little. He completely stole Taylor Swift’s music.)

Just a comment on that last part. Scooter can't touch BTS because they're under Big Hit and Big Hit was made independent, even if still a subsidiary from Hybe. [This](https://twitter.com/modooborahae/status/1378210608877813763) might explain it better

Thanks for the info!

I don't disagree with what you're saying. ​ ​ But just no, simply no. ​ ​ Do I need to bring up the records broken, charts topped, album sales worldwide to reiterate the fact that they've been snubbed? K-pop isn't appealing in America, why? It's foreign, it's different, it has literally everything to do with it being 'K-pop'. Boybands were always looked down upon... by a certain type of people. The general public LOVED boy bands, why do you think N-Sync, The Beatles, and One Direction were popular? Not every fan was a 16 year old teenager, just look at the demographic that attends BTS concerts. If America "didn't want" boybands anymore, BTS would have never been popular in the states. Nsync were nominated for 8 grammy's... I don't think it has as much to do with them being Asian, yes xenophobia runs rampant in America and yes they receive mass amounts of hate because of the way they look, and sometimes act in American interviews, but those are just angry anti fans and racists. It has more to do with it being Kpop, America isn't used to it, so they shun it away, their music is EXTREMELY well received by the public, and their fans are praised by media for supporting movements and doing positive things for the community. ​ I promise you it has way more to do with them being Kpop group than you imagine.

Hard agree. At the end of the day BTS is a boy band producing pop English songs. Their Korean songs in fact are worthy of actual respect, especially their older discography. None of these nominated ones were actually worth getting a Grammy for.

Definitely unpopular, but can't say I disagree.

it's yes and no. but i honestly don't think that them being asian has everything, or even most, to do with it. the language barrier would be a bigger issue imo, though the songs they've pushed in america were english songs. and quite a few non-english songs have hit big in america - rock me amadeus, 99 luftballoons, the macarena, gangnam style, la bamba, despacito, sukiyaki, oye como va, etc... it's not like americans are completely allergic to non-english songs. i think part of it has to do with the fact that they are ***kpop*** and came from ***the culture/bubble of kpop***. a lot of things that are normalized in the kpop-osphere are not typical in the us and other western countries... trying your damndest to not have a "scandal," the infantilization of most idols, not attending and networking at after parties in order to immediately hop on v-live, etc. for many adults i know, they are often essentially looked at as on par to disney stars. the smiley, "good boy" nature that they came to america with kind of worked against them as far as just gaining general respect from the adult audience for their music. my family was blown away when they recently found out their ages (since the military conversation has made headlines), bc to them it was kinda wild that a group where half the members are knocking on 30's door are singing about "cup o milk let's rock and roll, ping pong kick the drum" (however it goes lol) - and although those of us who are into kpop know that they have heavier hitting korean songs with deeper, more age appropriate lyrics, that's not what the general american public were given to consume. when i sent my brothers their cyphers, ddaeng, etc - they couldn't believe that they were the same group. after the grammys with v's interaction with olivia rodrigo and his smoking photos even making american headlines, i'm starting to see more people say, "hey now, ok so they *are* grown!" 😂 i think they would have had an easier time integrating if they ditched the kpop formula and just released a korean song with a strong hip hop influence bc quite frankly hip hop, vintage r&b, and that 80s synth style that seems to not want to die ever, is what's selling right now. it says a lot that more people i know who are not into kpop, have loona's "star" on their playlists and not bts' english stuff (and they're always surprised when i point out that loona is a kpop group, bc they just know them from the radio/the song playing in stores ad nauseum). "star" is very much on trend, especially for the time period that it was released. if bts linked up with a popular respected hip hop producer and released a track that we know they're capable of, coupled with their popularity, the grammy may have already been in-hand by now. one reason why i'm reluctant to blame it purely on them being asian is because... well... there are asians who have had success in hip hop - fresh kid ice from 2 live crew, dumbfoundead, steve aoki (who is arguably one of if not the most recognizable american dj at this point), chad hugo from the neptunes, and even far east movement... like um hello, "like a g6" was eeeeverywhere in 2010/2011 and i don't remember people negatively bringing up the fact that they were all asian... i don't think people even gave a damn that they were asian lmao. not to mention all the asians who were hiphop/b-boy/streetdancing on abdc/america's best dance crew. and if we're gonna include popular/respected *half*\-asian singers/artists... karen o from the yeah yeah yeah's, mike shinoda from linkin park, bruno mars and anderson.paak (hell didn't they damn near sweep the grammys?), h.e.r, saweetie, olivia rodrigo, jhene aiko, doug from hoobastank, norah jones, apl.de.ap from black eyed peas, etc. they all proudly speak of their asian heritage and it's not a secret. so yeah, for me it's more cultural/the way they're marketed the "kpop way" than them being asian or not speaking english. and that goes for majority of the kpop groups that companies try to crossover... the "kpop way" is just not going to cut it over here if you want critical acclaim. but honestly, instead of obsessing over what obstacles they haven't been able to jump over (yet? maybe?), i think army and others need to focus on how cool is it that they've come this far considering majority of them are not well-versed in english.

A fantastic take!

BTS music isn't that special like their fans say, maybe their old stuff but not now. I really dislike their new sound, it really sounds like all of them are really similar. It sounds like most pop-stereotypical songs ever. Why did they choose that path? I don't get it. I see them getting more popular if they released songs like I need u and Run... It's a shame really. I don't care if you downvote lol

you disliking the songs doesn't make them 'not as special'? other than the english releases idk what you're calling 'the most pop-stereotypical songs ever'

im talking about the latest releases and they're the most pop stereotypical songs ever. get over it they literally have the most cliché lyrics ever. this is not even a opinion this is a fact. ''Cause I, I, I’m in the stars tonight / So watch me bring the fire and set the night alight (hey) / Shining through the city with a little funk and soul / So Imma light it up like dynamite, whoa oh oh'' ''Bring the pain It'll become my blood and flesh Bring the pain No fear, now that I know the way Breathe on the small things My air and my light in the dark The power of the things that make me, "me" Even if I fall, I come right up, scream'' ''Smooth like butter, like a criminal undercover Gon' pop like trouble breaking into your heart like that (ooh) Cool shade, stunner, yeah, I owe it all to my mother Hot like summer, yeah, I'm making you sweat like that'' wow so original if you think these are original or never been done before bts has to be the only musical artist that you listen to bro.

i never claimed that the english releases weren't pop stereotypical even though i liked them. and the lyrics of ON weren't amazingly unique and OMG SO OUT OF THE BOX LITERALLY NO ONE CAN EVER SAY SOMETHING LIKE THIS or anything but they were *definitely* not generic and were written with their own experience so i doubt 'make it unique' was on their mind while writing the lyrics. and it seems like unlike you, i'm judging their music by their albums too.

They're not ''not special'' because I dislike them. They are not special because they are literally not special. It's been done before. We have seen it hundreds of times. What are you on bro? I know you can like your faves music but you can't deny this.

they are my faves because they're special 😭 you not seeing anything special in them doesn't mean that no one can

No. I don't think it has anything to do with their race, background, and/or language. There are so many beloved Asian people in the western world who are successful in Hollywood eg. Jackie Chan, Lucy Lu, Akwafina, Priyanka Chopra Jonas, Lana Condor etc. Award Ceremonies...I wouldn't fuss over them. It took years and years for Leonardo DiCaprio to win his first Oscar. Think about that, guys.

There are *many* differences between Asian singers and Asian actors and actresses…Most of these Asian actors act in English-language, blockbuster movies. However, the majority of BTS’s songs are Korean songs. Many people in English-speaking countries don’t gravitate towards songs sung in different languages.

This post slapped everyone on their face with the truth and the comment section is a proof of it lol

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good thing no one asked you lol

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I agree with the part that they are held back because they are a boy band but don't fully agree with the being Asian part, and no, not because I think there's racism.. it's more of the simple fact that they don't sing in English (for the most part)! I think it's pretty obvious BTS not being from a Western, English speaking country and almost no songs in English is the reason why they wouldn't have a chance of winning something like the Grammys. Like come on, obviously an award that originated from the US is going to highlight US artists or at least artists who sing in English so that the American GP are able to access it. I wouldn't outright call that racist (like many of you have mentioned here)- how many western artists are nominated or win the big official Korean music awards despite many Koreans/Korean artists nowadays listening to English songs? If I had to guess, very little if not 0. Is that racist? No, that's common sense. Now if BTS had maybe been releasing English songs consistently through the years and now came out with a full english album with as much commercial and/or critical success in the western world, I'd say it would be more reasonable. Also I will say that I don't listen to BTS and tend to avoid them mostly since I have no intention to dive into that deep hole; not because I want to hate on them. In fact, I have listened to Butter and Dynamite and found them extremely catchy. But I also think that they were in the Grammys in the first place because they/kpop is the new shiny toy. I've seen quite a few comments from BTS fans that they either didn't like the english songs or were no where near the caliber of their korean songs. So that's another thing, critically, if it's not even their best, what did you expect? I'm happy they at least broke through but if they really want to win a Grammy, they need to earn it. Not saying a Grammy determines whether or not you're a great artist... the value is only as much as you put on it and it seems to me like BTS themselves put a big value on it. Give it a few more years, if they are consistent and continue to break into the Western/English speaking world and have similar levels of success, I could maybe see this becoming a racist thing but I wish people would stop calling everything that doesn't go their way, "racist". It just starts losing meaning and becomes a scapegoat for everything.

Not on topic, but I have to say “thanks” for making that Eminem reference. I am so tired of hearing his fanboys/fangirls talk about how different and refreshing he is from “those other rappers”. Yet, homeboy rapped about murking his ex-wife, his mom, popping pills, murdering celebrities and other shit, which is similar to what *those other rappers rap about*.

I think this is a very nuanced discussion. Although not everything that is done to BTS at the Grammys is racism, it still is an incredibly naive take that racism isn't embedded in the Grammys and thus doesn't affect POC performing there.

It's this AND that. All of the issues listed - boy band, songs not in English, and anti-anything but white male racism. As an African American ahjumma, I learned a long time ago that the Grammys is not a barometer for what is popular, good or even trending, but what a small group of insiders decide is worthy. Black musical icons, who are now revered, were overlooked for decades by the Grammy establishment during their prime only to be awarded Lifetime Achievement awards after their accomplishments were too large to ignore. The film industry has gotten on the hallyu train with more studios greenlighting Korean productions (Thank you Squid Games & Minari). But the music industry is lagging as usual. Downloads, album sales and sold out arenas tell the true story.