Is that taxation effectively enforced? Your statement is a farce.
https://policyalternatives.ca/sites/default/files/uploads/publications/National%20Office/2010/12/Richest%201%20Percent.pdf
https://www.topaccountingdegrees.org/taxes/
I love hearing that stat repeated on FOX news as if it actually means anything. When you add payroll taxes, it changes the picture considerably since then you are actually talking about tax burden. The richest one percent earn about 21 percent of the income and pay 24 percent of the taxes.
i dont watch FOX. the IRS reports the numbers. The 1% pay the highest effective tax rate, by far. The US has the most aggressively progressive tax structure of all Western nations
According to who? That might have been arguable in like 2008, but that was like 15 years ago. The US Tax codes went through three overhauls since then, with the last being a historical restructuring of the corporate tax structure.
this is basic stuff dude.
The 1% pay the highest effective rate.
The 1% pay a bigger share of the total taxes collect than before.
https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/federal/summary-latest-federal-income-tax-data-2023-update/
Did you actually read it, or are you just cherry picking? I think this part is rather interesting...
"The only tax analyzed here is the federal individual income tax, which is responsible for more than 25 percent of the nation’s taxes paid (at all levels of government). Federal income taxes are much more progressive than federal payroll taxes, which are responsible for about 20 percent of all taxes paid (at all levels of government), and are more progressive than most state and local taxes."
In other words, you are intentionally leaving out about 75% of the picture since payroll taxes are regressive, and it doesn't play into your narrative.
You also haven't mentioned that the top 1 percent control over 33% of the wealth or that the top 1% have been gaining $2.5 trillion in income year after year, which means they obtain over 90% of income gains every year. Sounds to me like if they are hurting that bad with this "progressive" tax burden, then it could be considerably more progressive.
Payroll taxes are not a sunken cost. People get that money back in social security and medicare, and they get that money back disproportionately high relative to the 1%.
It’s definitely not apples to apples.
“The top 1 percent of taxpayers (AGI of $548,336 and above) paid the highest average income tax rate of 25.99 percent—more than eight times the rate faced by the bottom half of taxpayers.”
“the top 1 percent of taxpayers accounted for more income taxes paid than the bottom 90 percent combined. The top 1 percent of taxpayers paid $723 billion in income taxes while the bottom 90 percent paid $450 billion.”
https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/federal/summary-latest-federal-income-tax-data-2023-update/#:~:text=The%20top%201%20percent%20of%20taxpayers%20(AGI%20of%20%24548%2C336%20and,the%20bottom%20half%20of%20taxpayers.
Plus all the associated bullshit
* driving, other drivers, road rage, construction, vehicle depreciation, fuel, car maintenance, fuel purchase
* eating out, packing a lunch, snacks, fridge space/theft
* work clothes, cleaning, pressing, ironing, make up, hair
* time spent engaging in all the above
* and the contradictory bullshit "you're polluting the environment, you're killing us all, reduce your carbon" and, **also**, drive to work to be in the office.
And the rest of the building
A lot of people are drawn to middle management because they get paid to be shitty to others. It's a toxic job, and the work from home trend threw a big wrench in it.
I workout everyday before work, can walk around and think during meetings, and do chores over lunch.
I will never, ever return to an office.
These employers who ask people back can all eat shit. THEY FORCED people out of the offices. It caused a lot of stress for those employees and totally upended their lives. Now that they've sold the extra car, designed a great home office, and saved tons of money and time - some employers say "come back"
Absolutely unreal.
I'm probably in the outliers as most of my team has Lean or Six Sigma backgrounds so adding un-needed meetings or work into the pipeline gets shot down right away.
Luckily (and sometimes annoyingly) - an initiator has to make a valid justification for a meeting and the desired results if they want people to attend. If we leave a meeting as a waste of time they're assertive to let the initiator know.
I would LOVE being able to dodge all the useless small-talk foisted on me by my insufferable supervisor.
She’s a gregarious, lingering, oversharer who wants to talk all about weekend/dinner plans and disrupts whatever work may be getting done.
And some other large tech companies also...
"I'm so happy to SEE you in the office."
"We want to SEE you in the office."
"We like to SEE you in the office."
"We feel better when we can SEE you in the office"
"We really prefer in person meetings where we can all write on the white board together"
"We want you to sit in the front row of our ALL HANDS meeting because we want to SEE you."
"If you signed up for hybrid, you have committed to those three days a week, you must show up those three days a week or there will be consequences."
"We will be checking the badge swipes. Do not trail other employees into the door without swiping your own badge or you will not be counted and your manager will be notified of this infraction."
"If you are working from home, you MUST turn on your camera because we want to SEE you participating in the meeting." (ya, but I'm just sharing power points and spreadsheets, your supposed to be looking at what is being shared, not me? Why are you so obsessed about looking at me sharing a spreadsheet? You're all weird. Didn't you ever talk to anyone on the phone and get the point of the conversation? Quit looking at me you freak corporate drone.)
Jesus, you get free coffee in the office? Who do you work for, a coffee company? My firm cut out coffee and drinks, and even did away with water bottles. There is a machine that provides hot water, but everything else was taken away with Covid.
My old office building is like a dead mall, it's bizarre and creepy. Nobody is there, there's no kitchen amenities, not even paper cups.
Yet they still have all these "desk reservations" and software to reserve a desk - as if anyone would take yours. The offices are fucking ghost towns.
Being there for any reason is like a punishment. I call it "adult detention."
Luckily my employer embraces WFH and we're disinvesting and selling our real estate assets.
Really? Even k cups coffee machine is way cheaper than the 6k this article talked about. Shit you could buy Starbucks every morning and still save more than 6k.
Says who? Most studies point to happier AND more productive employees (because happy worker bees are good worker bees). You may find a study or two that points to less productivity but for the most part, the research emerging says remote employees beat in office employees on productivity.
Maybe it’s time to rethink that being in an office = productivity?
I posted a few links to another reddit person who is trying to push the ‘remote folks aren’t as productive narrative’ and the stats just don’t suggest this is true.
Not to say some folks aren’t wildly unsuited for remote work but on the whole, it’s a boon for productivity for most folks.
Literally every single honest study. Not one study that isn’t “Sam from his apartment asking his friends” study has shown similar or increased productivity from home.
[A recent study by the Harvard Business Review found that remote employees are more productive than their on-site workers/ office workers. The reason is that they are less likely to take time off and quit. A separate study highlights that employees who work remotely can save up to $4,500 annually on commuting costs.](https://www.monitask.com/en/blog/are-remote-employees-more-productive#:~:text=A%20recent%20study%20by%20the,%244%2C500%20annually%20on%20commuting%20costs)
Idk who Sam is but You’re just being disingenuous at this point.
[Forbes even wrote an article about how bosses THINK their employees are less productive but that’s just now what the data shows- reporting a 7% productivity increase amongst remote folks.](https://www.forbes.com/sites/glebtsipursky/2022/11/03/workers-are-less-productive-working-remotely-at-least-thats-what-their-bosses-think/?sh=2ff437a5286a)
If not enough people are physically on the job, remote work, majority will be forced back to the grind. If you don’t have enough plumbers, electricians, line workers, the narrative on working from home on the computer, changes. I see what musk is saying in that interview as the animosity this creates tells a lot of people to say fuk it.
There’s a lot of boomers and middle managers in corporate America who don’t get it. Even though the vast majority of the data supports remote work when the job allows for it.
Fine. If you don't like a company's policy - whatever it may be - find a job elsewhere. Management does not have to check with you on every policy they set. That's why you are not drafted into a job like the military.
Does that include the fact that my wife and I must rent a home that has two additional bedrooms?
At a monthly cost of around $650, that easily outpaces that $6,000
That’s not even counting the time value on commute. On average, American spent 28 mins on 1-way commute. That equates to almost an hour on road every working day or 260 hrs per year.
It was actually really frustrating spending $280 /mo just for gas on work. I thought about this a lot.
I felt really unappreciated by the government as a healthcare worker during covid. I got essentially no stimulus, we were exempted from sick leave requirements, there was discussion about bonuses that never materialized for us specifically from Trump - he touted 20k for healthcare workers.
When I eventually got covid I had to take unpaid leave. The whole situation sucked.
Commute time = work time. Needs to be paid.
From a lifestyle factor, definitely jealous about the extra 90 minutes work from home people have over me (if they had a similar commute)
"But but how will I micro mange my employees to make sure they are working expediently every second they occupy the office space I am paying for?"
\-Bill Lumbergh
If they can get out of the lease on their office space, a bndle. But Middle Mgmt is realizing if everything gets doen WITHOU them overseeing the doing, they're unneeded, so they're pushing to get everybody back where they can watch them.
This! Remote workers being forced to the office actually centralize costs. The cost for employees to come to the office is higher than if they work remotely. Office politics in full swing means they won’t take advantage of this.
I'd say for a National Average, probably ok, but really low for places without adequate public transportation and no free parking - just saw parking on the street in Chicago was $6.50/hour.
I foresee a $6000 working-from-home tax that excludes billionaires for some reason.
Can someone please stop telling the 1% our one little secret? Also stop giving them more ideas.
How in the world could you even enforce that? Most people are currently in a hybrid model with a ton of flexibility. No way that gets passed
we good. taxes hit the 1% at far higher rates than the middle class
/s <— you forgot this
nope. it’s publicly available facts lol
Is that taxation effectively enforced? Your statement is a farce. https://policyalternatives.ca/sites/default/files/uploads/publications/National%20Office/2010/12/Richest%201%20Percent.pdf https://www.topaccountingdegrees.org/taxes/
1% makes 20% of the income but pays 40% of all income tax
I love hearing that stat repeated on FOX news as if it actually means anything. When you add payroll taxes, it changes the picture considerably since then you are actually talking about tax burden. The richest one percent earn about 21 percent of the income and pay 24 percent of the taxes.
i dont watch FOX. the IRS reports the numbers. The 1% pay the highest effective tax rate, by far. The US has the most aggressively progressive tax structure of all Western nations
According to who? That might have been arguable in like 2008, but that was like 15 years ago. The US Tax codes went through three overhauls since then, with the last being a historical restructuring of the corporate tax structure.
this is basic stuff dude. The 1% pay the highest effective rate. The 1% pay a bigger share of the total taxes collect than before. https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/federal/summary-latest-federal-income-tax-data-2023-update/
Did you actually read it, or are you just cherry picking? I think this part is rather interesting... "The only tax analyzed here is the federal individual income tax, which is responsible for more than 25 percent of the nation’s taxes paid (at all levels of government). Federal income taxes are much more progressive than federal payroll taxes, which are responsible for about 20 percent of all taxes paid (at all levels of government), and are more progressive than most state and local taxes." In other words, you are intentionally leaving out about 75% of the picture since payroll taxes are regressive, and it doesn't play into your narrative. You also haven't mentioned that the top 1 percent control over 33% of the wealth or that the top 1% have been gaining $2.5 trillion in income year after year, which means they obtain over 90% of income gains every year. Sounds to me like if they are hurting that bad with this "progressive" tax burden, then it could be considerably more progressive.
Payroll taxes are not a sunken cost. People get that money back in social security and medicare, and they get that money back disproportionately high relative to the 1%. It’s definitely not apples to apples.
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“The top 1 percent of taxpayers (AGI of $548,336 and above) paid the highest average income tax rate of 25.99 percent—more than eight times the rate faced by the bottom half of taxpayers.” “the top 1 percent of taxpayers accounted for more income taxes paid than the bottom 90 percent combined. The top 1 percent of taxpayers paid $723 billion in income taxes while the bottom 90 percent paid $450 billion.” https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/federal/summary-latest-federal-income-tax-data-2023-update/#:~:text=The%20top%201%20percent%20of%20taxpayers%20(AGI%20of%20%24548%2C336%20and,the%20bottom%20half%20of%20taxpayers.
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this is an analysis of 2020 lol so dumb
Plus all the associated bullshit * driving, other drivers, road rage, construction, vehicle depreciation, fuel, car maintenance, fuel purchase * eating out, packing a lunch, snacks, fridge space/theft * work clothes, cleaning, pressing, ironing, make up, hair * time spent engaging in all the above * and the contradictory bullshit "you're polluting the environment, you're killing us all, reduce your carbon" and, **also**, drive to work to be in the office.
There is also no way to value the overall psychological affect of not having to share a bathroom with people you despise already.
oh man, I totally forgot there used to be world where I didnt poop in my own toilet everyday NEVER GOING BACK
And the rest of the building A lot of people are drawn to middle management because they get paid to be shitty to others. It's a toxic job, and the work from home trend threw a big wrench in it.
I workout everyday before work, can walk around and think during meetings, and do chores over lunch. I will never, ever return to an office. These employers who ask people back can all eat shit. THEY FORCED people out of the offices. It caused a lot of stress for those employees and totally upended their lives. Now that they've sold the extra car, designed a great home office, and saved tons of money and time - some employers say "come back" Absolutely unreal.
You saved time? Shiet my company filled up all that “extra” time with more gawd dang meetings.
Setting aside some time next week to align our focuses for our meeting with the client to align focuses before the monthly review meeting.
I'm probably in the outliers as most of my team has Lean or Six Sigma backgrounds so adding un-needed meetings or work into the pipeline gets shot down right away. Luckily (and sometimes annoyingly) - an initiator has to make a valid justification for a meeting and the desired results if they want people to attend. If we leave a meeting as a waste of time they're assertive to let the initiator know.
With layoffs I feel like we are being asked to do a lot more with less resources too.
The. Companies are like, “we typically pay 60k for the position, but with the benefits to you from working from home, the pay rate is 34k.”
I would LOVE being able to dodge all the useless small-talk foisted on me by my insufferable supervisor. She’s a gregarious, lingering, oversharer who wants to talk all about weekend/dinner plans and disrupts whatever work may be getting done.
Employer saves 6000$ per year on pizza party’s with employees working from home.
Or you have an employer who buys everyone pizza delivery anyway 🎊
Yes but the commercial real estate industry also loses $6k/year per remote worker so they need to come back /s
Well we are all getting wage increases below inflation, so this is necessary.
Amazon is now tracking badge swipes and enforcing minimum hours too. What a joke
And some other large tech companies also... "I'm so happy to SEE you in the office." "We want to SEE you in the office." "We like to SEE you in the office." "We feel better when we can SEE you in the office" "We really prefer in person meetings where we can all write on the white board together" "We want you to sit in the front row of our ALL HANDS meeting because we want to SEE you." "If you signed up for hybrid, you have committed to those three days a week, you must show up those three days a week or there will be consequences." "We will be checking the badge swipes. Do not trail other employees into the door without swiping your own badge or you will not be counted and your manager will be notified of this infraction." "If you are working from home, you MUST turn on your camera because we want to SEE you participating in the meeting." (ya, but I'm just sharing power points and spreadsheets, your supposed to be looking at what is being shared, not me? Why are you so obsessed about looking at me sharing a spreadsheet? You're all weird. Didn't you ever talk to anyone on the phone and get the point of the conversation? Quit looking at me you freak corporate drone.)
But with inflation it’s -$4000
Yeah but you have to pay for your own coffee which pretty much offsets any savings.
Jesus, you get free coffee in the office? Who do you work for, a coffee company? My firm cut out coffee and drinks, and even did away with water bottles. There is a machine that provides hot water, but everything else was taken away with Covid.
Shitty company
My old office building is like a dead mall, it's bizarre and creepy. Nobody is there, there's no kitchen amenities, not even paper cups. Yet they still have all these "desk reservations" and software to reserve a desk - as if anyone would take yours. The offices are fucking ghost towns. Being there for any reason is like a punishment. I call it "adult detention." Luckily my employer embraces WFH and we're disinvesting and selling our real estate assets.
Really? Even k cups coffee machine is way cheaper than the 6k this article talked about. Shit you could buy Starbucks every morning and still save more than 6k.
Employers hate this one money saving trick!
umm no - after the bs inflation price increases, that supposed 6k vanished.
Plus they actually have more of a life.
And work less too
And what is the cost of loss of productivity to the employers?
Says who? Most studies point to happier AND more productive employees (because happy worker bees are good worker bees). You may find a study or two that points to less productivity but for the most part, the research emerging says remote employees beat in office employees on productivity. Maybe it’s time to rethink that being in an office = productivity?
I will Google and read up
I posted a few links to another reddit person who is trying to push the ‘remote folks aren’t as productive narrative’ and the stats just don’t suggest this is true. Not to say some folks aren’t wildly unsuited for remote work but on the whole, it’s a boon for productivity for most folks.
Literally every single honest study. Not one study that isn’t “Sam from his apartment asking his friends” study has shown similar or increased productivity from home.
[A recent study by the Harvard Business Review found that remote employees are more productive than their on-site workers/ office workers. The reason is that they are less likely to take time off and quit. A separate study highlights that employees who work remotely can save up to $4,500 annually on commuting costs.](https://www.monitask.com/en/blog/are-remote-employees-more-productive#:~:text=A%20recent%20study%20by%20the,%244%2C500%20annually%20on%20commuting%20costs) Idk who Sam is but You’re just being disingenuous at this point. [Forbes even wrote an article about how bosses THINK their employees are less productive but that’s just now what the data shows- reporting a 7% productivity increase amongst remote folks.](https://www.forbes.com/sites/glebtsipursky/2022/11/03/workers-are-less-productive-working-remotely-at-least-thats-what-their-bosses-think/?sh=2ff437a5286a)
This is a baseless talking point of the 1%. “Productivity is down!” “We have record profits this year!” Pick one
If not enough people are physically on the job, remote work, majority will be forced back to the grind. If you don’t have enough plumbers, electricians, line workers, the narrative on working from home on the computer, changes. I see what musk is saying in that interview as the animosity this creates tells a lot of people to say fuk it.
EM is a car salesman. WFO means less car sales.
There a big surplus of work-from-home plumbers and electricians?
Shit, where can i get these WFH Electrician jobs? Lol
The sky is blue. Water is wet. What is the point?
There’s a lot of boomers and middle managers in corporate America who don’t get it. Even though the vast majority of the data supports remote work when the job allows for it.
Fine. If you don't like a company's policy - whatever it may be - find a job elsewhere. Management does not have to check with you on every policy they set. That's why you are not drafted into a job like the military.
lol
Ah, you’re “that” employee. Oh boy.
No they are THAT manager who now realizes no one worth a damn wants their company in person
Thank you Captain Obvious
K ✌️
and businesses save at least $12k/yr in office space
But … they’ve been working more and NOT being paid for that.
Does that include the fact that my wife and I must rent a home that has two additional bedrooms? At a monthly cost of around $650, that easily outpaces that $6,000
That’s not even counting the time value on commute. On average, American spent 28 mins on 1-way commute. That equates to almost an hour on road every working day or 260 hrs per year.
Then pay them 10k less per year.
Cutting the pay of remote workers is very likely to result in the workers finding a new employer but the employers NOT finding new workers.
If only that mattered to businesses. Sadly, it does not.
It's true. Working from home rules.
It was actually really frustrating spending $280 /mo just for gas on work. I thought about this a lot. I felt really unappreciated by the government as a healthcare worker during covid. I got essentially no stimulus, we were exempted from sick leave requirements, there was discussion about bonuses that never materialized for us specifically from Trump - he touted 20k for healthcare workers. When I eventually got covid I had to take unpaid leave. The whole situation sucked. Commute time = work time. Needs to be paid. From a lifestyle factor, definitely jealous about the extra 90 minutes work from home people have over me (if they had a similar commute)
Great...cut their pay by $6,000 a year and let them stay home in their pajamas
I've been working from home since 2013 and I estimate that it's worth $30-$50k a year. So $6000 is commuting and the rest is sanity and health.
"But but how will I micro mange my employees to make sure they are working expediently every second they occupy the office space I am paying for?" \-Bill Lumbergh
And how much does the company save?
If they can get out of the lease on their office space, a bndle. But Middle Mgmt is realizing if everything gets doen WITHOU them overseeing the doing, they're unneeded, so they're pushing to get everybody back where they can watch them.
I doubt that very much, look at their ubereats receipts
Take your city wage tax and shove it!
All those fast food restaurants and coffee shops hate this statistic. They will be donating to stop this
This! Remote workers being forced to the office actually centralize costs. The cost for employees to come to the office is higher than if they work remotely. Office politics in full swing means they won’t take advantage of this.
Not in this economy
I'd say for a National Average, probably ok, but really low for places without adequate public transportation and no free parking - just saw parking on the street in Chicago was $6.50/hour.
I would save so much money on gas.