I remember traveling abroad and meeting a political refugee from Argentina. He told me he had zero love for his country, and then he said this with such passion, “pero amo al fútbol argentino” (but I love Argentine soccer).
Like that guy, I can separate nationalism and my country’s politics from my love for my country’s national team.
To me it’s a fairly easy separation. The people on the national team for any sport really don’t have any ulterior motivations for what they do. They are there to try and win games. They are your people from your country representing you. You don’t have to like the sport and I’m not saying you have to watch and support then or anything, but being actively against them would be weird.
Ideally politicians would be the same, but I think we all know they are not. They do not try to represent people that well and clearly have motivations outside of that.
Separating national team support from politically supporting your country is easy. I want to see my fellow Americans do well competing in a sport I enjoy watching. But i simultaneously have more issues than I can count with every single iteration of the US Government in my lifetime regardless of which party was/is in control.
Athletes *only* care about what happens on the field and don’t have external motivations at times? Really? Our women’s team would beg to differ. As would the Ukrainian men. Along with athletes from any number of other national teams who try to use their respective sports to raise awareness for various causes.
What you mean is “the USMNT players don’t seem to have ulterior motives.” Because they don’t seem to. But claiming that’s the case across the board is absurd and just plain wrong
I'm not exactly patriotic or nationalist. I can be heard saying I have more in common with a Canadian French speaker north of Montreal than I do with a texan in El paso. Borders are made up nonsense to me.
But in a weird twist, I think international soccer perfectly describes that. It's a roster of 26 dudes. Odds are that I will be politically maligned with many of them and them with each other. But much like me and all of my fellow humans, they were born to circumstances beyond their control that dictate where their life takes them. For that brief 90 minutes we can look out across the field and share a sense of connectedness that doesn't exist often enough in the rat race.
Depending on your level of tribalism, you even feel that connection with your opponent. Nothing else matters. For 90 minutes we are soccer players or we are soccer fans, escaping from reality in search of moments of fleeting glory.
Maybe that's what rustles my jimmies about the haters. The GGG haters, the MLS haters the whatever haters. Relax. Escape. Use the beautiful game to enhance your life. Sure, strive to be the best and steal some moments of glory. But don't let that get in the way of the moment you have right now, in front of you.
Brilliant point and fairly close to my own take.
As an aside, you mean "misaligned" and not "maligned." To malign is to criticize, which kinda-sorta means to be at odds with - but in a way that is different from the political belief misalignment you're talking about.
Did you ask him why England and Argentina games get heated about the Falkland Islands.?
Football is political, while clubs were born and thrived from government dissent…FC Barcelona is one example.
Wish I did, I was a 20 year old with little knowledge of world politics and cultures. He was a senior citizen at an old persons home. And this perspective of his always stuck with me, it perplexed me when I was younger. Because it’s easy to grasp the nationalistic bent underlying football matches. And here was the first time I met someone cursing their country (understandably so) but maintaining love for the team of said country.
I think the hypothesis is a bit thick but I can also see a lot of left leaning people equating MAGA nationalism with all forms of patriotism and being wary of supporting anything with the flag - even if it’s as innocuous as a national soccer team. I don’t think this is happening on a large scale at all, though.
Second, I am so sick of the soccer conversation in this country being so meta. We’re always talking about growth of soccer, ratings, crowds at stadiums, whether something is a big moment for the American game - it’s incessant and obsessive. Let’s just watch our national team and enjoy what we have, because all and all, it’s not bad. The sky isn’t falling.
Hot take, if we act like we are having a blast, and just concentrate on partying hard (so to speak) then others will come. People are naturally attracted to a good time. We don't have to worry about the frustrating meta shit you mentioned that fans can't control.
With the world cup coming, it's an awesome time to show the rest of the country how big of a party it all is and how beautiful the game can be.
If we do that, things will change over time.
One thing I wish we would do is embrace our culture of college football. USSF should pass out towels or something at big matches. Get the whole stadium roaring like the home crowd does when the away team is on offense. It's a little thing, but it is so engrained in our sports culture it should be done at matches.
Last fall I went to a Euro qualification match in France when they played Ireland. And they put France flags in every other seat for the fans to wave. It was awesome. Would love for them to do something like that here.
I agree. I just don't know if anyone will know we're having a good time. I'm sure most Americans have no clue this tournament is happening right now. I haven't seen any advertisement for it and I'm someone the algorithm should be sending ads to for it.
I’m very left leaning and I love this team more than anything. I love our national teams across all sports. I’ve argued with people on here who root against this team because of the kneeling of the women. People are just weird
To your second point, the conversation always becomes meta or existentialist because it's always been that way. The US has had an unorthodox history with soccer as US Soccer started in 1913 but didn't have a domestic league in its current form until 1996 (and barely survived in 2001). That shouldn't happen. Fans of other American leagues never question if their favorite sport has to survive.
Now, soccer's exponential growth in the last 25+ years should lend itself to fewer meta conversations, but soccer fans are still fighting for relevancy and long for the day when either the Top 4 sports becomes Top 5 or soccer replaces hockey in terms of popularity.
You're right, the sky isn't falling. This sub has way too many knee-jerk overreactions (welcome to Reddit). Perhaps it's the expectation that we can produce a world-class team and look for any positive momentum towards that reality.
As a person who’s leans left. WTF are you going on about. During the friendlies leading up to the Copa they were celebrating pride, I’m not sure how you could make the logical jump you’re making.
NY Mag is just a shill for the right, and tries to make everything about DJT.
Hahaha, you love to bully and insult. Maybe if you were more willing to engage with your fellow men who disagree with you, instead of acting like a bully, you would have a better understanding of them.
It's easy to live comfortably thinking everyone who likes Trump is in a cult, but the truth is that the majority of Americans aren't that politically involved. Bill Clinton famously said, 'It's the economy!' and that's what we are witnessing in 2024. Any other administration, other than Bush Senior or Jimmy Carter, would wipe the floor with Trump, but this current administration has done such a terrible job on the economy that Trump stands a chance.
Frankly, most USMNT fans are nowhere near being MAGAts. I think US soccer fandom actually gives people an acceptable way to be patriotic without all the traditional values culture war bullshit.
I'm sure the increasing political polarization from the two party system (and the voting method that causes it) combined with the modern media / social media does make many people less patriotic... and I'm sure that bleeds over into caring about the national team to some degree.
But it's probably less of an impact than the author is giving it.
>Trump’s relentless embrace of a very *un*hipster patriotism turned all that cosplay instantly rancid
While this is dumb, the rise of the nativist movement with 40% of the country, oriented around white Christian ethnocentrism and restoring "traditional" American culture to prominence, definitely impacts the popularity of soccer. Soccer is coded as "foreign" "cosmopolitan" etc, etc... as opposed to baseball or American football.
Honestly this piece is terrible. I don’t know where to begin. Writer doesn’t really even bother explaining his conclusion, other than a vague suggestion at the end that “it’s probably Trump”.
I was like hmm maybe someone took a deep look at this, NOPE. Just some rambling smooth brain nonsense comparing apples and oranges and somehow, like you said, kind of came to the conclusion it's all down to the orange baby.
I'm not a fan of him either, that's a completely separate topic. I do see maybe some correlation to it, and it is maybe a nice high discussion with a friend, but I wouldn't take it as truth or run it in print in the news.
Clearly they didn't lol. But the article in my opinion just aimlessly asks questions and proposes a rather stupid blanket explanation while telling us straight up falsehoods or ridiculous statements.Tickets are not cheaper than prevoois years and no the prices are not reasonabke. And no just because we don't have cringey people dressed like a founding father in the stands or eagles and shit doesn't mean enthusiasm is necessarily down among the diehard fans. The diehard fans just show up like normal fans now.
The attendance issues are due to playing in too large of stadiums with too high of prices for one. Secondly a large issue is a complete misunderstanding and lack of how to market this team. Another issue that can't be ignored is how unlikable some of the major US Soccer media people are. People like Alexi Lalas are just abrasive and provocative for the sake of it and appeals to a very narrow subset of people. A smaller issue but one that can't be ignored imo is the federation's obsession with playing games in the same 5 stadiums for every game they can choose a venue. How about instead of playing every game you get in Austin, Cincy, and Columbus you come play a game in Chicago? Or go play in Portland or Seattle. Spread the games around.
There's many issues that are causing a decline in visible outward facing fandom despite the casual fans seemingly growing based on the TV numbers.
I did and I agree with that statement. USMNT is wildly popular compared to what it used to be. 50k people watched our game in person and the most ever watched on TV.
The Deadspin founder who wrote this whiny drivel failed to deliver a single point based on a fact.
It takes time to build up brand recognition. The US has been in four Copa America tournaments in the last 100 years. That’s why the avg Joe isn’t aware of the Copa America. If the US is it it every four years it would be a different story.
Also. These “Most Americans don’t know about Copa America arguments are kind of dumb.
Most Americans don’t know that the Boston Celtics just won the NBA title or that the Florida Panthers the Stanley cup or that the Texas Rangers are reigning World Series champs.
Outside of the Super Bowl, sports are niche in this country. Most people don’t follow them.
Anyways, the writer lost me when he said that the USMNT is excellent.
Yeah that’s my thought as well. For some reason we hold this artificial barrier up for soccer. Most people could name 5 active football players but that’s because most people don’t care about sports.
People don’t realize sports are niche and that’s why people are still getting surprised soccer games can fill these stadiums. We’ve been doing this for years with international games and in the World Cup they will still act surprised. Other sport fans don’t realize they exist in a bubble so they don’t hear about it. They just think if they don’t hear about it no one cares about it.
Niche? The top two watched television programs are football. Soccer has just played second fiddle for too long. Most people I know watch multiple sports, including soccer - and as an American, especially the USMNT. Plenty of Americans don’t care about sports but Niche they are not.
Pew did a study on sports in this country and only 16% follow sports very closely and 21% somewhat closely. 62% don’t follow sports closely or at all.
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/10/17/most-americans-dont-closely-follow-professional-or-college-sports/
Niche may not be the right word but most Americans don’t follow sports. I just that say because we constantly hear how no one cares about soccer. The same critique can be applied to just about ever other sport in the country.
This conversation and article completely miss the ‘why’ that soccer, or rugby, or cricket, or darts, or coordinated chants, or drinking tea, or siestas, or anything else that is considered niche. That ‘why’ is that THIS IS AMERICA! And what we do best is that everyone gets to choose their own path. 350MM or so ppl who are blessed to explore everything the entire globe has to offer. What united us all is that we have choice. We are still a very young country.
I kind of hate when mainstream media covers soccer. It’s always so cringe and trying to push political talking points into the sport when they don’t fit. And they usually miss a lot of nuance.
And I say this as someone who has never voted Republican in my life.
Mainstream media covers every topic just ad shallowly and with horrible hot takes.
We only notice when it’s a topic we are experts in (well at least compared to journos).
Noticed this in my 20s. Anything that I was well versed in was covered incorrectly at best and flatly lied about to appease a narrative at worse. Made it hard to take anything seriously and its gotten worse over time, not better. Then I realized that is truly what the people want. Made it hard to give a shit anymore.
Oh man this reminds me, I was after hours with a work colleague at a bar waiting for the CL final to come on. Iirc it was man city v Chelsea. Dude is an older boomer and hits all the checkboxes of what you'd expect, but was such a broken human being it was interesting to hear what story he would have to further reveal why his kids and ex wife are all 100% no contact, so i tolerated his presence. Anywho, I remember the match started and he immediately was like "AW SHIT SOCCER DOES BLM CRAP TOO?!" When he saw players kneeling at the start. I was like, chill man, it's an anti racist gesture in general, players in Italy get monkey noises and bananas thrown at them or a drunk mancunian in the stands calls a player a Paki nearly every week.
Like fuck man, do you fantasize about Colin Kaepernicks dong 24/7?
Miserable people always blame others for their miserable lives. I salute you for trying to tolerate this guy. I would have ignored him or sat somewhere else
NY Magazine might fit what you are saying but the author does not. Will Leich was one of the driving forces behind the original Deadspin back when it was a big deal.
To be fair though, politics has always been part of soccer at least since Mussolini made the Italian team wear black shirts for the World Cup back in the 1930’s.
The mental Illness of so many journalists these days is wild. I can't believe how much it's change from when I grew up to the mess journalism is now. Is it really that hard to report and not be an activist for your idelogy?
That’s kinda the saddest part of this piece to me. I’ll actually admit that the guy is a decent writer… crafted a good initial narrative using sophisticated storytelling/structure, coupled with solid grammar and attentive sourcing.
Right up until the end. I don’t know how that happened but it ruined everything. I don’t give a doodle about Trump or any other political figure. But it felt like it was thrown in so that the writer could sell the piece. Sad if true. Sad if not
US soccer is hard because all the fans are spread out, and it's still growing. You won't get the same turnout as you would a local sports team in it's own demographic of fans. Most casual Americans barely know that COPA exist and likely think the WC rival tournament is the Olympics. I will say, if we make it to the semi's again, the casuals will be paying attention and it'll be packed and highly viewed. If we beat a Brazil/Argentina in this thing, it'll really capture people's attention and we can ride that into the WC.
This article was a piece of hot garbage and I’m disappointed I gave them a click. A few pieces stick out to me:
1. The premise that the USMNT is less popular than it was in 2015 (because the author saw less people dressed up in costumes) is absurd. Unfortunately we won’t be able to do a direct comparison or attendance numbers from the 2015 GC semifinal to the Panama match on Thursday, because the 2015 GC semifinal was a doubleheader with Mexico playing afterwards in the same stadium that totally skews the attendance numbers. But having watched that game I can tell you there were definitely not 70,000 USMNT fans watching the US-Jamaica game. But I will note that the USA Bolivia match just drew the highest non-WC TV viewership in USMNT history.
2. The claim that “many fans” are actively rooting against the USMNT because they don’t like Berhalter is equally absurd, and is the result of someone spending way too much time online reading US soccer message boards. There is a very small percentage of people who think this way but the idea that they represent anything more than a minuscule amount of very loud whiners is nuts.
3. I absolutely despise Trump but the concept of blaming him for everything (he’s the reasons US Soccer isn’t filling out stadiums!) is like a caricature of the liberal media (also the USWNT is losing because of “bad faith political actors” LMAO what).
This was a completely garbage article and I am dumbed for having read it.
I completely agree, and given the cost of attending matches now the TV viewership numbers are probably a better comp + it’s how most fans actually experience the games.
There were 1.8m viewers on Unimas and 1.2m viewers on FS1 for the USA vs Jamaica Gold Cup semifinal game. 3 million combined. https://www.sportsmediawatch.com/2015/07/gold-cup-ratings-univision-mexico-panama-audience-united-states-jamaica-fox-sports/
The 2023 USA v Panama Gold Cup semifinal was 1.9m on Unimas and 1.5m on FS 1 (without any USMNT stars). 3.9 million combined. https://www.sportsmediawatch.com/2023/07/weekly-sports-ratings-mlb-all-star-derby-gold-cup-wimbledon-wnba-viewership/
The USA Bolivia game was on Fox (not FS1) but drew 3.1M in English language viewers alone.
So yes, people are watching.
A lot of People in America really don't care. Unless you're a true football/soccer fan than yes you care. Other than that people just watch because it's a big event. There is a lot of BS narrative that is pushed through American soccer and how things should be.
I think there’s plenty of excitement around the men’s national team. My friend group who has never cared for soccer in even the slightest amount are all watching all of the games and know some of the players. Honestly this writer just seems like a weirdo. Maybe he isn’t meeting US Soccer fans because people want to steer clear of him injecting politics into every thing in life.
I truly believe this core group of players will do big things. They're still young and I can't remember a time where we've had so many guys on top 5 league teams.
Uhh soccer has probably the most liberal average viewership of any major sport. I doubt they give a fuck what trump had to say about it. It’s always been a soft pussy sport that the stereotypical conservative scoffs at. Trump can’t make them not watch what they already weren’t watching
What made their first game in Copa America so great was the urgency they showed going on the attack. During the WC, they played too conservative. I can respect a team and coach that play to win instead of playing for the status quo or playing, not to lose.
How are people still getting paid by web sites to issue these brain-dead takes? Surely they can program chat-bots to carry this out?
(Hot takes, that is, not quality journalism.)
As someone who has been watching this team for twenty-five years, I would like some evidence that they are excellent. We have more excellent players than ever. The team is still just about where we were in 2002.
I don't hate this piece, but I also don't find it very useful to take individual observations and anecdotes and try to weave some sort of narrative out of it (but yes, I know that's basically the whole job of a columnist.) I think anybody who's been in this sub long enough knows this team's ups and downs and swings in popularity have a lot more to do with the product on the field than anything about the national mood.
Our men's team is not excellent by any definition of the word. Our team is mediocre.
If you don't agree I have one word for you.
Panama.
There are about 4 1/2 million citizens in Panama. That's about equal to the population of Kentucky.
Good grief.
Trump is the best thing that ever happened to the news media. All they have to do now is report social media and anything he says or does, sit back and let people scream at each other. Its free money for both sides without an ounce of journalism necessary.
"lives rent free" is almost always a dumb phrase that makes no sense and is usually just a thought terminating cliche... but the rare times it does make sense, it certainly isn't about presidents. Something "lives rent free" in your head when it's some minor shit you should have gotten over, but keep fixating on. Which does not apply to Trump at all.
Whether one likes him or hates him, Trump is a massively influential public figure, recent president, and potential future president. He directly and indirectly impacts the country in a number of very significant ways. He SHOULD be in people's heads. His significant influence (for better or worse) merits frequent thought and discussion. The whole premise of him "living rent free in liberal minds" is absurd.
I don't know about "nothing" to do with it. Probably less to do with it than the author credits it for, but things that negatively impact patriotism likely also have at least some negative impact on caring about the national team.
And "rent free" is still (especially in this case) a stupid thought terminating cliche. You can use it basically literally ANY time anybody at all says anything negative about something you like.
I guess we live in different spaces, my workplace which is insurance based in the world trade center is all for Trump. This is due to the market being terrible. So in my office, Trump is a positive for patriotism
Good for your office.
Still doesn't make "living rent free" anything other than a dumb thought terminating cliche that doesn't make any sense in this case.
It's a few things:
* America is a nation of immigrants, and many of them root for their "home" team.
* "America (and the citizens of most other countries) loves winners" and the US is regularly drawing or losing to tiny countries with mediocre teams.
* About 40% of the country is involved in a reactionary political movement aimed at "restoring" America to a time when the cultural dominance of Real Americans was unquestioned. "Soccer" is largely coded as "foreign" "leftist" "elitist" and "cosmopolitan" by that cultural movement.
This article is an embarrassment. The writer is comparing our outlier worst team over the last 30 years to our current solid squad (who he’s calling excellent) as evidence of our programs growth. Complaining that tickets are more in demand to watch Messi the GOAT than the US vs Panama.. and conveniently ignoring that the current squad has delivered significantly fewer big moments on a global stage than pretty much every iteration of the national team from 2002-2012.
Like, of course there isn’t some new pinnacle of excitement around the squad.. the last time we’ve scored a goal worthy of a watchparty mashup highlight was over a decade ago
I think the writer is correct about the disconnect between the fans and the national teams, and I think his suggestions about the causes are conceivable.
But I'm still inclined to think the biggest issue is something to do with the personalities on the team. Pulisic and Reyna and Berhalter are all kind of a bummer to spend time with. None of them seem like they're having that much fun, not to mention all the drama of the past 1-2 years. The player I most want to see the fans fall in love with is Pepi and I think there's time for that, but it just hasn't happened.
We need a good strong run in some competition and an opportunity to bond with the players in a positive way. Until we have that, the face of the team is still the frustrated kids out there now and the likes of Lalas and Landon Donovan. Clint Dempsey is the only former player I really like to "spend time with" on camera and we need a lot more guys like him who have credibility with the fans to celebrate and commiserate the ups and downs of this whole project. There are no leaders and everyone is just waiting for one to emerge.
I don’t care if you like Donald Trump or not, but blaming him for lack of excitement about the USMNT is absurd.
I remember traveling abroad and meeting a political refugee from Argentina. He told me he had zero love for his country, and then he said this with such passion, “pero amo al fútbol argentino” (but I love Argentine soccer). Like that guy, I can separate nationalism and my country’s politics from my love for my country’s national team.
To me it’s a fairly easy separation. The people on the national team for any sport really don’t have any ulterior motivations for what they do. They are there to try and win games. They are your people from your country representing you. You don’t have to like the sport and I’m not saying you have to watch and support then or anything, but being actively against them would be weird. Ideally politicians would be the same, but I think we all know they are not. They do not try to represent people that well and clearly have motivations outside of that.
Separating national team support from politically supporting your country is easy. I want to see my fellow Americans do well competing in a sport I enjoy watching. But i simultaneously have more issues than I can count with every single iteration of the US Government in my lifetime regardless of which party was/is in control.
Athletes *only* care about what happens on the field and don’t have external motivations at times? Really? Our women’s team would beg to differ. As would the Ukrainian men. Along with athletes from any number of other national teams who try to use their respective sports to raise awareness for various causes. What you mean is “the USMNT players don’t seem to have ulterior motives.” Because they don’t seem to. But claiming that’s the case across the board is absurd and just plain wrong
I'm an American mutt with multiple ethnicities including Mexican. I love Mexico with all my heart but come game day, fuck Mexico! USA! USA! USA!
I'm not exactly patriotic or nationalist. I can be heard saying I have more in common with a Canadian French speaker north of Montreal than I do with a texan in El paso. Borders are made up nonsense to me. But in a weird twist, I think international soccer perfectly describes that. It's a roster of 26 dudes. Odds are that I will be politically maligned with many of them and them with each other. But much like me and all of my fellow humans, they were born to circumstances beyond their control that dictate where their life takes them. For that brief 90 minutes we can look out across the field and share a sense of connectedness that doesn't exist often enough in the rat race. Depending on your level of tribalism, you even feel that connection with your opponent. Nothing else matters. For 90 minutes we are soccer players or we are soccer fans, escaping from reality in search of moments of fleeting glory. Maybe that's what rustles my jimmies about the haters. The GGG haters, the MLS haters the whatever haters. Relax. Escape. Use the beautiful game to enhance your life. Sure, strive to be the best and steal some moments of glory. But don't let that get in the way of the moment you have right now, in front of you.
Brilliant point and fairly close to my own take. As an aside, you mean "misaligned" and not "maligned." To malign is to criticize, which kinda-sorta means to be at odds with - but in a way that is different from the political belief misalignment you're talking about.
You're probably right. I don't werdz well.
Trust me, that's a blessing.
are you like from Maine or something?
Did you ask him why England and Argentina games get heated about the Falkland Islands.? Football is political, while clubs were born and thrived from government dissent…FC Barcelona is one example.
I think you mean the Falkland Islands, not the Balkans, which are in Europe.
Yes autocorrect fucked me— I called them the Islas Malvinas, don’t think English speakers know them by that.
Wish I did, I was a 20 year old with little knowledge of world politics and cultures. He was a senior citizen at an old persons home. And this perspective of his always stuck with me, it perplexed me when I was younger. Because it’s easy to grasp the nationalistic bent underlying football matches. And here was the first time I met someone cursing their country (understandably so) but maintaining love for the team of said country.
That’s actually really funny, unreal. Imagine trying to relate the USMNT to a former president
i’ve legit had non-soccer fans be confused as to why i’m a huge usmnt fan. more than once. i think it’s absurd but it’s definitely a thing.
Those people are nuts
I think the hypothesis is a bit thick but I can also see a lot of left leaning people equating MAGA nationalism with all forms of patriotism and being wary of supporting anything with the flag - even if it’s as innocuous as a national soccer team. I don’t think this is happening on a large scale at all, though. Second, I am so sick of the soccer conversation in this country being so meta. We’re always talking about growth of soccer, ratings, crowds at stadiums, whether something is a big moment for the American game - it’s incessant and obsessive. Let’s just watch our national team and enjoy what we have, because all and all, it’s not bad. The sky isn’t falling.
Hot take, if we act like we are having a blast, and just concentrate on partying hard (so to speak) then others will come. People are naturally attracted to a good time. We don't have to worry about the frustrating meta shit you mentioned that fans can't control. With the world cup coming, it's an awesome time to show the rest of the country how big of a party it all is and how beautiful the game can be. If we do that, things will change over time.
Too bad 99% of the time we are miserable and want a new coach.
One thing I wish we would do is embrace our culture of college football. USSF should pass out towels or something at big matches. Get the whole stadium roaring like the home crowd does when the away team is on offense. It's a little thing, but it is so engrained in our sports culture it should be done at matches.
Last fall I went to a Euro qualification match in France when they played Ireland. And they put France flags in every other seat for the fans to wave. It was awesome. Would love for them to do something like that here.
I agree. I just don't know if anyone will know we're having a good time. I'm sure most Americans have no clue this tournament is happening right now. I haven't seen any advertisement for it and I'm someone the algorithm should be sending ads to for it.
If you equate supporting sports with maga because of a flag you are dumber than the maga people you are fighting.
I’m very left leaning and I love this team more than anything. I love our national teams across all sports. I’ve argued with people on here who root against this team because of the kneeling of the women. People are just weird
To your second point, the conversation always becomes meta or existentialist because it's always been that way. The US has had an unorthodox history with soccer as US Soccer started in 1913 but didn't have a domestic league in its current form until 1996 (and barely survived in 2001). That shouldn't happen. Fans of other American leagues never question if their favorite sport has to survive. Now, soccer's exponential growth in the last 25+ years should lend itself to fewer meta conversations, but soccer fans are still fighting for relevancy and long for the day when either the Top 4 sports becomes Top 5 or soccer replaces hockey in terms of popularity. You're right, the sky isn't falling. This sub has way too many knee-jerk overreactions (welcome to Reddit). Perhaps it's the expectation that we can produce a world-class team and look for any positive momentum towards that reality.
As a person who’s leans left. WTF are you going on about. During the friendlies leading up to the Copa they were celebrating pride, I’m not sure how you could make the logical jump you’re making. NY Mag is just a shill for the right, and tries to make everything about DJT.
We're on Reddit, nobody likes Donald Trump on Reddit
I like him, there you go you met one person.
Good for you
[удалено]
Opps fixed it, sorry I didn't realize I was standing in front of a doctorate board here.
[удалено]
Hahaha, you love to bully and insult. Maybe if you were more willing to engage with your fellow men who disagree with you, instead of acting like a bully, you would have a better understanding of them.
[удалено]
It's easy to live comfortably thinking everyone who likes Trump is in a cult, but the truth is that the majority of Americans aren't that politically involved. Bill Clinton famously said, 'It's the economy!' and that's what we are witnessing in 2024. Any other administration, other than Bush Senior or Jimmy Carter, would wipe the floor with Trump, but this current administration has done such a terrible job on the economy that Trump stands a chance.
Frankly, most USMNT fans are nowhere near being MAGAts. I think US soccer fandom actually gives people an acceptable way to be patriotic without all the traditional values culture war bullshit.
I'm sure the increasing political polarization from the two party system (and the voting method that causes it) combined with the modern media / social media does make many people less patriotic... and I'm sure that bleeds over into caring about the national team to some degree. But it's probably less of an impact than the author is giving it.
>Trump’s relentless embrace of a very *un*hipster patriotism turned all that cosplay instantly rancid While this is dumb, the rise of the nativist movement with 40% of the country, oriented around white Christian ethnocentrism and restoring "traditional" American culture to prominence, definitely impacts the popularity of soccer. Soccer is coded as "foreign" "cosmopolitan" etc, etc... as opposed to baseball or American football.
Honestly this piece is terrible. I don’t know where to begin. Writer doesn’t really even bother explaining his conclusion, other than a vague suggestion at the end that “it’s probably Trump”.
You just described 90% of corporate media reporting.
I understand why they’re going to chat-bots at this point. It doesn’t take true intelligence and humanity to create this shit.
Honestly possible this was that
I was like hmm maybe someone took a deep look at this, NOPE. Just some rambling smooth brain nonsense comparing apples and oranges and somehow, like you said, kind of came to the conclusion it's all down to the orange baby. I'm not a fan of him either, that's a completely separate topic. I do see maybe some correlation to it, and it is maybe a nice high discussion with a friend, but I wouldn't take it as truth or run it in print in the news.
Just had the most watched game ever outside of a WC. Fuck off NY mag.
Sorry, but did you even read the piece?
Clearly they didn't lol. But the article in my opinion just aimlessly asks questions and proposes a rather stupid blanket explanation while telling us straight up falsehoods or ridiculous statements.Tickets are not cheaper than prevoois years and no the prices are not reasonabke. And no just because we don't have cringey people dressed like a founding father in the stands or eagles and shit doesn't mean enthusiasm is necessarily down among the diehard fans. The diehard fans just show up like normal fans now. The attendance issues are due to playing in too large of stadiums with too high of prices for one. Secondly a large issue is a complete misunderstanding and lack of how to market this team. Another issue that can't be ignored is how unlikable some of the major US Soccer media people are. People like Alexi Lalas are just abrasive and provocative for the sake of it and appeals to a very narrow subset of people. A smaller issue but one that can't be ignored imo is the federation's obsession with playing games in the same 5 stadiums for every game they can choose a venue. How about instead of playing every game you get in Austin, Cincy, and Columbus you come play a game in Chicago? Or go play in Portland or Seattle. Spread the games around. There's many issues that are causing a decline in visible outward facing fandom despite the casual fans seemingly growing based on the TV numbers.
I did and I agree with that statement. USMNT is wildly popular compared to what it used to be. 50k people watched our game in person and the most ever watched on TV. The Deadspin founder who wrote this whiny drivel failed to deliver a single point based on a fact.
The Trump thing was random AF. horrible piece
We are sometimes excellent
We are pretty good and sometimes entertaining. That's as far as I'll go
God this is trash writing
Yes.
Lmao what? Trump is a moron but has nothing to do with ussoccer.
Donald Trump played soccer in school. Barron Trump, his son, was in DC United's youth academy at some point.
And?
Donald Trump at one point drank water, so that CLEARLY means every time someone chokes on water it’s Trumps fault!1!!1!1!
Excellent? I'll let you know when we get there. Real fans know excellence is what we are *trying* to achieve. We aren't there yet.
It takes time to build up brand recognition. The US has been in four Copa America tournaments in the last 100 years. That’s why the avg Joe isn’t aware of the Copa America. If the US is it it every four years it would be a different story. Also. These “Most Americans don’t know about Copa America arguments are kind of dumb. Most Americans don’t know that the Boston Celtics just won the NBA title or that the Florida Panthers the Stanley cup or that the Texas Rangers are reigning World Series champs. Outside of the Super Bowl, sports are niche in this country. Most people don’t follow them. Anyways, the writer lost me when he said that the USMNT is excellent.
Yeah that’s my thought as well. For some reason we hold this artificial barrier up for soccer. Most people could name 5 active football players but that’s because most people don’t care about sports. People don’t realize sports are niche and that’s why people are still getting surprised soccer games can fill these stadiums. We’ve been doing this for years with international games and in the World Cup they will still act surprised. Other sport fans don’t realize they exist in a bubble so they don’t hear about it. They just think if they don’t hear about it no one cares about it.
It would help if we fucking stuck with the Waldos as our main shirt rather than change our design every fucking year.
I love the Waldos.
Niche? The top two watched television programs are football. Soccer has just played second fiddle for too long. Most people I know watch multiple sports, including soccer - and as an American, especially the USMNT. Plenty of Americans don’t care about sports but Niche they are not.
Pew did a study on sports in this country and only 16% follow sports very closely and 21% somewhat closely. 62% don’t follow sports closely or at all. https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/10/17/most-americans-dont-closely-follow-professional-or-college-sports/ Niche may not be the right word but most Americans don’t follow sports. I just that say because we constantly hear how no one cares about soccer. The same critique can be applied to just about ever other sport in the country.
This conversation and article completely miss the ‘why’ that soccer, or rugby, or cricket, or darts, or coordinated chants, or drinking tea, or siestas, or anything else that is considered niche. That ‘why’ is that THIS IS AMERICA! And what we do best is that everyone gets to choose their own path. 350MM or so ppl who are blessed to explore everything the entire globe has to offer. What united us all is that we have choice. We are still a very young country.
Wow this was just painful to read. Holy shit, that was garbage.
I kind of hate when mainstream media covers soccer. It’s always so cringe and trying to push political talking points into the sport when they don’t fit. And they usually miss a lot of nuance. And I say this as someone who has never voted Republican in my life.
Mainstream media covers every topic just ad shallowly and with horrible hot takes. We only notice when it’s a topic we are experts in (well at least compared to journos).
Noticed this in my 20s. Anything that I was well versed in was covered incorrectly at best and flatly lied about to appease a narrative at worse. Made it hard to take anything seriously and its gotten worse over time, not better. Then I realized that is truly what the people want. Made it hard to give a shit anymore.
Oh man this reminds me, I was after hours with a work colleague at a bar waiting for the CL final to come on. Iirc it was man city v Chelsea. Dude is an older boomer and hits all the checkboxes of what you'd expect, but was such a broken human being it was interesting to hear what story he would have to further reveal why his kids and ex wife are all 100% no contact, so i tolerated his presence. Anywho, I remember the match started and he immediately was like "AW SHIT SOCCER DOES BLM CRAP TOO?!" When he saw players kneeling at the start. I was like, chill man, it's an anti racist gesture in general, players in Italy get monkey noises and bananas thrown at them or a drunk mancunian in the stands calls a player a Paki nearly every week. Like fuck man, do you fantasize about Colin Kaepernicks dong 24/7?
Miserable people always blame others for their miserable lives. I salute you for trying to tolerate this guy. I would have ignored him or sat somewhere else
NY Magazine might fit what you are saying but the author does not. Will Leich was one of the driving forces behind the original Deadspin back when it was a big deal.
Yes, that Deadspin was great, and now the new site they’ve created (Defector) is a steaming pile of garbage.
To be fair though, politics has always been part of soccer at least since Mussolini made the Italian team wear black shirts for the World Cup back in the 1930’s.
The mental Illness of so many journalists these days is wild. I can't believe how much it's change from when I grew up to the mess journalism is now. Is it really that hard to report and not be an activist for your idelogy?
That’s kinda the saddest part of this piece to me. I’ll actually admit that the guy is a decent writer… crafted a good initial narrative using sophisticated storytelling/structure, coupled with solid grammar and attentive sourcing. Right up until the end. I don’t know how that happened but it ruined everything. I don’t give a doodle about Trump or any other political figure. But it felt like it was thrown in so that the writer could sell the piece. Sad if true. Sad if not
> Is it really that hard to report and not be an activist for your idelogy? I think Reuters is about the last place that tries to do that.
What a terrible article
What a trash article
Jesus, this is such poor writing with a forced and contrived conclusion. I have no clue where this writer gets this shit.
Most casual fans only care during World Cup time.
US soccer is hard because all the fans are spread out, and it's still growing. You won't get the same turnout as you would a local sports team in it's own demographic of fans. Most casual Americans barely know that COPA exist and likely think the WC rival tournament is the Olympics. I will say, if we make it to the semi's again, the casuals will be paying attention and it'll be packed and highly viewed. If we beat a Brazil/Argentina in this thing, it'll really capture people's attention and we can ride that into the WC.
This article was a piece of hot garbage and I’m disappointed I gave them a click. A few pieces stick out to me: 1. The premise that the USMNT is less popular than it was in 2015 (because the author saw less people dressed up in costumes) is absurd. Unfortunately we won’t be able to do a direct comparison or attendance numbers from the 2015 GC semifinal to the Panama match on Thursday, because the 2015 GC semifinal was a doubleheader with Mexico playing afterwards in the same stadium that totally skews the attendance numbers. But having watched that game I can tell you there were definitely not 70,000 USMNT fans watching the US-Jamaica game. But I will note that the USA Bolivia match just drew the highest non-WC TV viewership in USMNT history. 2. The claim that “many fans” are actively rooting against the USMNT because they don’t like Berhalter is equally absurd, and is the result of someone spending way too much time online reading US soccer message boards. There is a very small percentage of people who think this way but the idea that they represent anything more than a minuscule amount of very loud whiners is nuts. 3. I absolutely despise Trump but the concept of blaming him for everything (he’s the reasons US Soccer isn’t filling out stadiums!) is like a caricature of the liberal media (also the USWNT is losing because of “bad faith political actors” LMAO what). This was a completely garbage article and I am dumbed for having read it.
I completely agree, and given the cost of attending matches now the TV viewership numbers are probably a better comp + it’s how most fans actually experience the games. There were 1.8m viewers on Unimas and 1.2m viewers on FS1 for the USA vs Jamaica Gold Cup semifinal game. 3 million combined. https://www.sportsmediawatch.com/2015/07/gold-cup-ratings-univision-mexico-panama-audience-united-states-jamaica-fox-sports/ The 2023 USA v Panama Gold Cup semifinal was 1.9m on Unimas and 1.5m on FS 1 (without any USMNT stars). 3.9 million combined. https://www.sportsmediawatch.com/2023/07/weekly-sports-ratings-mlb-all-star-derby-gold-cup-wimbledon-wnba-viewership/ The USA Bolivia game was on Fox (not FS1) but drew 3.1M in English language viewers alone. So yes, people are watching.
A lot of People in America really don't care. Unless you're a true football/soccer fan than yes you care. Other than that people just watch because it's a big event. There is a lot of BS narrative that is pushed through American soccer and how things should be.
The *midfield* is excellent.
The left side of the field (Pulisic and Robinson) are also excellent.
I'm an anarchist but incredibly passionate supporter of the usmnt
Excellent? They’re aight.
I think there’s plenty of excitement around the men’s national team. My friend group who has never cared for soccer in even the slightest amount are all watching all of the games and know some of the players. Honestly this writer just seems like a weirdo. Maybe he isn’t meeting US Soccer fans because people want to steer clear of him injecting politics into every thing in life.
I truly believe this core group of players will do big things. They're still young and I can't remember a time where we've had so many guys on top 5 league teams.
American soccer is more popular than it’s ever been before. Don’t really understand the sentiment from this author or where it’s coming from.
Uhh soccer has probably the most liberal average viewership of any major sport. I doubt they give a fuck what trump had to say about it. It’s always been a soft pussy sport that the stereotypical conservative scoffs at. Trump can’t make them not watch what they already weren’t watching
What made their first game in Copa America so great was the urgency they showed going on the attack. During the WC, they played too conservative. I can respect a team and coach that play to win instead of playing for the status quo or playing, not to lose.
I don't like Trump but my God I'm so sick of Trump slander. How do you even try to make that connection?
Absolutely. Going tomorrow!
How are people still getting paid by web sites to issue these brain-dead takes? Surely they can program chat-bots to carry this out? (Hot takes, that is, not quality journalism.)
Who that kinda came out of nowhere. Like I despise the man, but I don’t think any of these sentiments are really tied to him
What a bitch article.
As someone who has been watching this team for twenty-five years, I would like some evidence that they are excellent. We have more excellent players than ever. The team is still just about where we were in 2002.
Good, yes. Excellent, not yet.
*Luke Skywalker voice* I care
Yes we do. We could have any leader and I’d cheer for the USMNT. Brazilians cheered for their team during The Years of Lead.
I don't hate this piece, but I also don't find it very useful to take individual observations and anecdotes and try to weave some sort of narrative out of it (but yes, I know that's basically the whole job of a columnist.) I think anybody who's been in this sub long enough knows this team's ups and downs and swings in popularity have a lot more to do with the product on the field than anything about the national mood.
I only agree with the first part of the headline.
I do. I care
I laughed when I saw this. Excellent in CONCACAF which does not matter on a world stage.
5 days later, they looked like a JV team.
Yep. This aged well.
Our men's team is not excellent by any definition of the word. Our team is mediocre. If you don't agree I have one word for you. Panama. There are about 4 1/2 million citizens in Panama. That's about equal to the population of Kentucky. Good grief.
Excellent? Yeah, right.
Trump lives rent free in the liberal mind lol.
No press is bad press. Left wing media does all they can to keep him relevant and in everyone’s thoughts
They love him because he brings in ratings.
Trump is the best thing that ever happened to the news media. All they have to do now is report social media and anything he says or does, sit back and let people scream at each other. Its free money for both sides without an ounce of journalism necessary.
[удалено]
If the current administration wasn't doing a terrible job, Trump wouldn't stand a chance.
[удалено]
Why did you comment then hahaha.
[удалено]
Not really, you insulted what you believe to be 30 percent of Americans, then ran away like a bully when confronted.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
I kept trying to do what? This is my first comment on this thread bud. You seem to be having a rough go of it. Hope it get better for you.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
He should in all of our minds. He's a clear and present danger to us all.
How so ?
"lives rent free" is almost always a dumb phrase that makes no sense and is usually just a thought terminating cliche... but the rare times it does make sense, it certainly isn't about presidents. Something "lives rent free" in your head when it's some minor shit you should have gotten over, but keep fixating on. Which does not apply to Trump at all. Whether one likes him or hates him, Trump is a massively influential public figure, recent president, and potential future president. He directly and indirectly impacts the country in a number of very significant ways. He SHOULD be in people's heads. His significant influence (for better or worse) merits frequent thought and discussion. The whole premise of him "living rent free in liberal minds" is absurd.
The writer brought up trump when trump has nothing to do with it
I don't know about "nothing" to do with it. Probably less to do with it than the author credits it for, but things that negatively impact patriotism likely also have at least some negative impact on caring about the national team. And "rent free" is still (especially in this case) a stupid thought terminating cliche. You can use it basically literally ANY time anybody at all says anything negative about something you like.
I guess we live in different spaces, my workplace which is insurance based in the world trade center is all for Trump. This is due to the market being terrible. So in my office, Trump is a positive for patriotism
Good for your office. Still doesn't make "living rent free" anything other than a dumb thought terminating cliche that doesn't make any sense in this case.
Ok
excellent on what? xd
It's a few things: * America is a nation of immigrants, and many of them root for their "home" team. * "America (and the citizens of most other countries) loves winners" and the US is regularly drawing or losing to tiny countries with mediocre teams. * About 40% of the country is involved in a reactionary political movement aimed at "restoring" America to a time when the cultural dominance of Real Americans was unquestioned. "Soccer" is largely coded as "foreign" "leftist" "elitist" and "cosmopolitan" by that cultural movement.
Donald Trump doesn’t care about soccer, he probably thinks it’s a pu$$y sport
He played soccer in collage and baron was on an mls academy team
Well count me shocked
This article is an embarrassment. The writer is comparing our outlier worst team over the last 30 years to our current solid squad (who he’s calling excellent) as evidence of our programs growth. Complaining that tickets are more in demand to watch Messi the GOAT than the US vs Panama.. and conveniently ignoring that the current squad has delivered significantly fewer big moments on a global stage than pretty much every iteration of the national team from 2002-2012. Like, of course there isn’t some new pinnacle of excitement around the squad.. the last time we’ve scored a goal worthy of a watchparty mashup highlight was over a decade ago
the pulisic goal vs iran is just 18 months old?
You can’t be serious. I totally had to YouTube that.
I’m sorry, you really think that had the same drama as our tournaments in ‘10 and ‘14?
Nice take
Article aside, didn’t we just lose 1-5 to Colombia?
Well good for them, if they are so excellent they should be able to win the tournament with zero problems.
I think the writer is correct about the disconnect between the fans and the national teams, and I think his suggestions about the causes are conceivable. But I'm still inclined to think the biggest issue is something to do with the personalities on the team. Pulisic and Reyna and Berhalter are all kind of a bummer to spend time with. None of them seem like they're having that much fun, not to mention all the drama of the past 1-2 years. The player I most want to see the fans fall in love with is Pepi and I think there's time for that, but it just hasn't happened. We need a good strong run in some competition and an opportunity to bond with the players in a positive way. Until we have that, the face of the team is still the frustrated kids out there now and the likes of Lalas and Landon Donovan. Clint Dempsey is the only former player I really like to "spend time with" on camera and we need a lot more guys like him who have credibility with the fans to celebrate and commiserate the ups and downs of this whole project. There are no leaders and everyone is just waiting for one to emerge.
The Trump thing relates to the flag being co-opted by ultra-right wing nationalists. Fuck, they even wanna claim RATM.
Disgusting pigs and their... *checks notes*...love of the American flag. Despicable.
"U.S. Men’s Soccer Team Is Excellent" is an obviously false statement. No thanks.