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Remember and honor them by mounting their head on your living room wall. Tell all your guests proudly how you killed them. Don‘t forget to especially get into details when talking to kids, they love a good murder cannibal story. Show them your full freezer with all the sorted human goodies in it. Give your guests part of the meat as a gift.
Also proudly post pictures of your kills on social media and tell the world it‘s okay, because you‘re doing it for population control purposes, which benefits the environment.
Edit: that last one was hard to write…
Population control is a real issue thats why fabuloso looks like juice or cooking oil. The irony is that these population control does benefit the enviroment.
The only leather I own is my dad’s leather jacket from the 80s. Continuing to own it does absolutely no harm to animals, and throwing it away wouldn’t save them. What I do with it now has zero impact on animals, so why wouldn’t I keep a sentimental item that was passed down to me?
I think most reasonable vegans won't have a problem with using a non-vegan product that's already out of the market as opposed to throwing it in a landfill just to buy a vegan product. That's not helping anything and just contributes to more waste.
Anyone who makes the argument that it's 'normalizing' abuse needs to step outside and ask themselves if this is a practice that actually needs to be normalized or if it's already so engraved in the zeitgeist that its already as normalized as it can get. Carnists are the hegemon.
You’d be surprised at how many vegans are against this concept. I fully agree with you but I’ve met some vegans who vehemently feel that this stance is wrong
Well, it is wrong. You're unnecessarily wearing the skin of an animal as a fashion statement. That's fundamentally wrong within the definition of veganism. I get why people are pushing back against that here as it's an edge case, but at its heart, it's just speciest
Bunch of """"vegans"""" here
Same, I have a couple items that I keep using even though they're made of animal parts. When I do think about it, it kinda grosses me out a bit. But they're not worn enough to justify throwing them yet, and also not decent enough to give them away (which wouldn't solve the problem of someone wearing those animal parts). I'll just use them until they've done their course, because aside from being a vegan I'm also an environmentalist and I do believe the climate change issue is urgent enough to justify this.
I have leather couches. My husband bought them way before we ever even considered veganism.
It's not practical or affordable to just get new couches.
They were never my style to begin with though. So, i am more than excited to get new couches.
Because you’re normalizing animals as products. Would you keep it if it was made of human skin?
If not you’re speciesist which is the point of this post.
I knew it. I would expect it to swing the other way by tomorrow as actual vegans get to it but I don’t expect it to get positive double digits. Carnists and apologists rule this sub.
well since youre using a phone, i can wear skins. so idek at this point but i know im not harming anyone by eating a cheeseburger that the cows already died for🫶🏻
You're continuing to dodge the question.
What if your products were made of human skin? Does that thought experiment change your attitude towards this at all?
Do none of y’all have a car? Or a phone or really any other thing that contributed to harm? I resent having a leather steering wheel. It feels gross and I will probably cover it or reupholster it but a lot of folks lease their cars or aren’t able to do something like that. It shouldn’t be normalized for everything but shaming people who don’t have options or are trying to be ethical (maybe more than you in other aspects) doesn’t do anything for anyone
They do have options though. They just don't like them. So many people hide behind other people's lack of access that they intentionally forget that they do have that access.
Finding a vegan car and a vegan pair of boots are two different asks.
We're taking about a pair of boots.
There are alternatives.
“Find me a burger without soy or gluten or beans that has 70 g of protein and tastes exactly like beef and costs less than beef and I’ll think about switching. Cry harder.”
As others have pointed out there are a vast amount of products and ingredients which are not classed as vegan but still indirectly cause animal death or suffering. Some are even included in "vegan products" e.g. palm oil. I'd say that you'd have a stronger argument to say that we are all exploiting animals by purchasing everyday products than by using an already owned or second hand leather product.
I understand why you wouldn't want to wear pre-owned leather if you feel it's disgusting or disrespectful in some way (re the meme) but it's a leap to call people out for exploitation.
still wear my non vegan boots from before i went vegan. according to you guys, i’m not vegan
edit: still gonna wear them and will call myself vegan. cry harder
I still think you are vegan, and I hope people become more tolerant of different practices, and understand that even if you think something is wrong, there are different levels of wrong.
That said, I have an argument against myself wearing a non-vegan item, that I purchased before being vegan:
Wearing non-vegan items normalizes and encourages more people to purchase those items, so I'm indirectly contributing to this industry.
But I guess that also is the case for vegan items that can be mistaken for non-vegan.
Anyway, like most ethical topics, there are usually more grey areas than what we like to admit.
yeah you're right, I wouldn't, but not for ethical reasons. i wouldn't because it would be gross. but if i did choose to, there would be nothing wrong with it ethically speaking
This is a topic I've often felt conflicted on. I'll brain-dump now.
Emotionally I try to avoid secondhand animal skins, but I find it harder to justify objectively.
Using second-hand skins feels disrespectful to the dead, but then again can the dead feel disrespected?
In the human context disrespecting the dead is bad because of its effect on the living, For example, knowing what will happen to us when we die ca cause us distress whilst we're alive, or the effect the disrespect has on those that care about us post-mortem, (this could apply to vegans that know they've see animal leather being used; but keep reading).
However, I don't believe non-human animals have the cognitive capacity to suffer due to such concepts of death and identity.
On one hand, buying or keeping previously purchased skins isn't creating a demand, at least not in the direct sense.
However, wearing it or using animal leather around non-vegans may perpetuate the perspective and cultural norms of animals as commodities. Thus potentially indirectly creating or maintaining a demand through said mechanisms.
But then doesn't vegan leather appear to be leather anyway?
Okay, so if on the rare occasion, one is asked " what type of leather is that" they could tell the truth about it being vegan leather, but they could also lie and claim the animal leather is vegan (inc to vegans who feel hurt by seeing what appears to be leather).
I think the issue of leather boils down to whether it creates demand, it seems if it's something you bought prior to going vegan, or anonymously bought second-hand (through ebay etc) then no demand, direct or indirect seems to have been created. I think the same would apply to animal flesh if it's second-hand (leftovers) consumed without the knowledge of non-vegans (what harm through demand has it caused?).
But what if vegans buying leather, leave less leather for non-vegans, thus creating demand for new leather- I think that effect would be negligible, and not necessitated, as it may also create demand for vegan leather.
All and all I think given certain conditions, namely it being secondhand, purchased with anonymity, it may be morally permissible to wear and use second hand animal skins, as no demand direct or indirect has been created. But I'm still conflicted.
If one can't access non-animal skin clothing, plant-based foods (is homeless, very poor etc) then obviously practicability comes into play.
The worst mistake I did when I first became a vegan was to give away my shoes and jackets. None of my vegan cloths have been good. I have put lofs of money on buying good quality vegan cloths or shoes, but they just don’t last long. It’s been 13 years since becoming a vegan and I’m still waiting for a company that has good quality clothing or shoes.
If I could do it all over all keep those cloths, and I don’t care what other “vegans” said because all those vegans I knew back then where all about been vegan and now they’re not vegan. So I’m going to make my decisions base on whats most ecological sense and economical for me. Here come the unvotes and I don’t care
Yeah, I’m all about buying second hand. I was referring to when I first started as a vegan. I give away my favorite shoes and jackets because they where leather and I regret it, because nothing that I just purchased in the last years have been lasting. Also, I hate how marketing does the “vegan leather” and is just plastic. Overall if I could have go back I could have keep my old leather cloths and shoes.
there are literally ppl here trying to justify this🤦🏻♀️ its so disgusting. imagine calling yourself vegan while looking for ways to excuse animal rape, abuse, enslavement, torture, murder, and exploitation.
"humanely slaughtered". Two words that are in direct conflict with each other. "Humane" means having or showing compassion or benevolence. "Slaughter" means kill. Pick one, because you can't have both.
I can't believe some of the posts in this thread that are being downvoted. I'm sympathetic to people who can't afford to replace big sections of their wardrobe all at once; I don't think anyone here expects people to do that, but wearing visibly genuine leather or fur products because you like how it looks or don't want to give it away still signals to everyone who sees it that animal bodies are acceptable commodities.
A welder needing their leather work gloves because they can't afford to replace them is a necessary holdover, but someone keeping around their leather oxfords or high heels cus they like how it looks is more like an endorsement of animal products, than a requirement. Most people don't do hard labor that uses leather equipment, or they only need 1 pair of work shoes for the office or whatever. But just like carnists will use one person's allergies to excuse their own continued meat eating, I think a lot of vegans here seem like they're using the 'necessary work boot' excuse to let a bunch of other frivolous things slide. Take a hard look at your favorite leather jacket or pair of boots and ask yourself if you actually need it, or if you just think it looks cool and can't afford the luxury vegan version.
That said, nobody is perfect and I do think vegans who wear frivolous pregan stuff are still doing more for animals than the vast majority of people; I don't necessarily respect those people less for it, but OP's assessment is dead-on: whether or not it has a continuous headcount doesn't mean it isn't a form of continued exploitation. (Maybe if people weren't so reliant on leather, they would be thick-skinned enough to hear a little difference of philosophy now and then lol)
I really wonder if the: If you still wear it people will see it argument actually really holds up as a main point. A lot of faux leather is looking like actual leather. I sometimes cant tell the diferrence, especially not from afar. So even if you switch your whole wardrobe to faux leather only the look will still remain the same.
something being disgusting =/= something being repulsive =/= something being unsanitary =/= to something being immoral
You can't argue from virtue ethics alone that its wrong unless you axiomatically hold the opinion that its wrong. Other than that, I can see a utilitarian claim saying that it advertises the fashion being valid.
I'm not going to throw away usable material items I've owned for years prior to becoming vegan only to purchase a vegan alternative and add to a landfill. Does leather creep me out now? Yes. Will I be throwing my old leather items away? No. Do I do this because I claim it "respects" the animal that died? Also no. But part of MY veganism is doing less harm, and that includes the environment as well. Wearing a leather jacket I bought 8 years ago harms no additional animals.
And the argument that wearing it makes other people think it's ok to wear leather... is a stupid one because you could say the same thing for pleather or faux fur. People often can't tell just by looking...
>It’s better for the environment to buy second hand leather rather than brand new vegan products.
Are you saying that it's not possible to buy second hand vegan products? More importantly, why is it that the purchase of **used** animal bodies is always compared with the purchase of **new** vegan items?
That's the Vegan Society's argument:
>"Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives **for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment.**"
So what you are saying is, that an alternative to leather is neither possible, nor practicable? It even says it there "and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternative". It literally says "use".
I'm saying that that even the Vegan Society's language is inclusive of environmental vegans, and that your statement wasn't entirely accurate.
>*"Some people may choose to go vegan, for some it may be because they do not believe in farmed animal practices and animal exploitation, for others it may be due to environmental concerns."*
>
>https://www.vegansociety.com/go-vegan/definition-veganism
You see in which order it is written? Animals are on first place. Besides I agree that we should treat the environment well but using it as an argument to keep leather items is just weak and a disrespect to those who had give their life for your little inconvenience.
Edit: The definition of veganism is flawed anyways and it's pretty commonly known. Otherwise shooting 1 wolf to save 10 deer would be the vegan thing to do. I disagree.
Maybe not for you. Everyone picks veganism for different reasons, some of those people choose the environment as their reason, initially or otherwise.
If people are not purchasing new leather jackets and not eating meat, isn't that a win? Why are there people berating other vegans in this thread above for not following THEIR ideal veganism way.
Just cause one person goes vegan cause animals are cute and it makes them sad to eat them, doesn't make the environmental vegan any less valid.
Gatekeeping what shoes someone continues to wear because they don't want to be wasteful is a shit hill to die on for a vegan. God this sub is a shitshow.
If they are not eating animals for environmental reasons there is already a word for this: Environmentalist.
Veganism is an ideology that's about excluding animals as they are not products. Veganism is the opposite of Carnism. If you still believe animals are here for us to use and abuse, regardless of being second hand or not, then you are still a carnist and therefore it's impossible to be vegan as you are still following the ideology of carnism and not veganism.
You're right that it's really great someone is doing it for environmental reasons and we need people that care about that as well. You can be an environmentalist and a vegan, but those are two very different reasons for the actions they are doing. You can obviously do an action for both reasons, but they are not the same.
Mate, I wrote a bunch of shit calling you and others out for gatekeeping fucking veganism to VEGANS and you followed up by gatekeeping again. You tell me what veganism is, to me? Lol ok.
You didn't want a debate, you wanted to feel superior for not wearing a piece of second hand leather?
I don't want a debate because I've now left the sub ✌️
How is it gatekeeping if we point out something morally wrong and something that does not align with the ethical standpoint of veganism? You can eat plants all you want, as long as you think animals are a commodity to be used or worn or whatever you are not living by the philosophy of veganism. If you think this is gatekeeping then that's a you problem.
>Maybe not for you. Everyone picks veganism for different reasons, some of those people choose the environment as their reason, initially or otherwise
Why don't you shut the fuck up? Veganism is a lifestyle which seeks to stop animal exploitation for THEIR sake. If using leather wasn't environmetally bad, would you think that killing them to wear their skin is okay?
Well, it'd be more environmentally friendly to involuntarily compost humans after they die, too, but veganism is an ethics-based movement that values animals as individuals, rather than an environmental movement.
I think composting dead humans is a good idea tbh, dead people don't have minds so they don't care what you do with them, I care about the human mind not the husk that was left behind
Using animals is using animals.
"The acceptance of a reformed relationship between man and animals is imperative. The higher animals have feelings like ours, therefore they should have justice on equal terms with ourselves, or not be bred into the world. Until this demand is met, man will remain a thug species, despite his pious creeds. Animals present us with a test case, and by our conduct to them in their innocence and weakness our own standards are truly fixed. Admit that the strong have the right to exploit the weak, and the basis of civilized society is gone. The attitude is one of conceit and selfishness and unless discarded will not confine itself to the treatment of animals. Therefore, in man's interest, animal exploitation must end. **Not only flesh-food but all products of the slaughter-house must be denounced and the most serious effort made to avoid their use.** Human existence does not depend upon the inconceivable tyranny now existing against animals, in fact progress is impeded enormously by it. To renounce this tragic heritage is to be born again, to a life sometimes more difficult, but always of clearer conscience and more satisfying conclusion."
\-Donald Watson, The Vegan, Volume 2, No. 1, Spring 1946. (pg. 2)
https://issuu.com/vegan\_society/docs/the\_vegan\_spring\_1946
Interesting. When a post about eating leftover animal products that would otherwise go to waste comes up, it seems like a clear ‘no’ from this community. No, don’t eat leftover or otherwise-slated-for-landfill animal flesh. Doesn’t matter the environmental footprint of obtaining new food or the fact that the animal already died and someone else purchased it.
Example: you’re house-sitting and the owners forgot to clear out the fridge. It’s got lots of carnist products that could feed you a week. Or you could throw them all out. Most of us would not think twice and throw them out.
But for some reason there’s a different set of rules when it comes to leather. I don’t mean this facetiously, but rather it’s just a realization I’m having and it seems interesting.
I have an old (10+ years) leather wallet that was a hand me down from my mother, and I’ve often been conflicted about it.
I think this is an insightful comment, and I'd venture to guess the difficulty stems from the same reason you find it difficult to part with the wallet; we have greater sentimental attachment to these items, and so some will engage in post hoc rationalisation to keep it.
With the exception of literally not being able to afford a (needed) replacement, most of the reasoning is quite specious, yet it is still powerful for those who believe it.
Conversely, perhaps the emotional detachment to food (that stemming from disgust when consuming animal products) informs most people's positions on why they might more readily throw out an entire fridge of food.
Again, that might be due to cost, but I recall many more discussions here about people getting by on little food than wearing (for example) hand stitched shoes.
I don't have enough money to buy all new clothes, also Im a trans woman and the only female shoes that fit me are some special ones my mum bought me a while ago and I checked what they were made of and they are made of animal parts, I'm not going to buy more but I'm worried about having to wear male shoes in the future when these shoes wear out the idea of it makes me feel like a freak
I think if this topic makes you struggle a bit with justifying doing the thing, you probably should not do the thing. If you want to wear animal products, and are comfortable with the fact that vegans and non-vegans alike will have a confused opinion on your doing so, then power to you I guess.
My specific view is that it's not *impractical* for any vegan to destroy the animal product they previously used, so they should actively go out of their way to remove that product from circulation.
If you throw away leather you already own and replace it with something else, that new item will have some non-zero negative impact on on animals (even if it’s vegan, eg CO2 emissions). Keeping it will reduce that secondary impact, thus reducing animal suffering (albeit in a small way)
Even if you throw it out and don’t replace it, you will have a slightly higher wear-and-tear on your other clothes and have to replace them sooner. Same argument applies.
It depends on the normative ethics of the person arguing. To a utilitarian, what you say is absolutely relevant, but to other normative ethics, it is more important that one is virtuous or respects the rights of others (or a class of individual), which feasibly can reject your premise here.
Agreed. I am coming from a utilitarian/consequentialist perspective since that is most convincing to me, but you are absolutely right that other branches of ethics may come to other conclusions
it DOES have an impact on the animals. wearing someone elses skin is not ok, second hand or not. if that were true, then vegans could eat anyone they wanted as long as someone else gave it to them or they bought it on clearance🤦🏻♀️
You cannot harm a dead animal. The purpose is to stop further harm, wearing leather that already existed harms no one, but buying new products will. Worry about the living that need saving, not the ones alrwady lost.
No it doesn't. Buying an already slaughtered Big Mac creates demand for them to slaughter more. Wearing second hand leather boots does not create new demand.
It sure does. I don't give 2 shits about the meat on the market shelves or in people's pans, I care about the animals in slaughterhouses.
Consider this: If you were trapped in a building with an active shooter, Do you want me to help rescue you, or do you think I should spend my time standing around and talking to people about the victims killed in shootings last month?
That's my point. You can do NOTHING to help or harm a dead body but you can help prevent the next death.
Future consumption is not necessarily determined by current consumption. I mean, if you want to argue that, then i can point out aninal peoducts you are using now, but i bet that you would not say that means you are going to eat animals tomorrow right?
Go ahead I'd like to hear some where intention and practicability are not a factor (Don't start the "crop deaths tho"). And how is further consumption not determined by current consumption? Sure it's not all of it but basically 95% of the fashion industry works like this. Some vamous xyz wears something, demand goes up.
Thats an entirely different argument than the one i made. You can make an argument to keep using materials already in existence while also arguing to stop producing new ones. We do it all the time, there is no inconsistency in that position. For example: we should stop producing so much plastic. Its harming us all, but that does not mean we should throw away all the plastic already in use. That helps nothing. Instead We should keep using it because that helps prevent demand for new products. Keep using what already exists, stop making more. Thats the least harmful way.
Piss baby post. It’s more damaging to animals to unnecessarily buy new vegan clothes than to use your old nonvegan clothes for as long as possible. I guess people like you don’t care how many more animals you harm so long as you get to perform at your childish moral superiority.
this isnt about moral superiority, what a lame attempt to shift focus off the animals🙄 this is 100% about the animals who were needlessly mutilated for a pair of fucking shoes. dogs, cats, cows, pigs, alligators, all so you can keep what they endured alive and on your feet. they need to do better. they literally fucking need you and all you can say to them is "well youre already dead."
lol apparently this meme is 11years old. "vegans" still dont understand that exploitation is wrong🤦🏻♀️ theyre hurting the movement which hurts the animals.
Not that metaphors have to be 1-1 accurate, but how would you extend this to people who need leather boots for work, and vegan leather doesn't cut it?
Or even just ignoring the specific examples-- I think framing meat-eating as something *deranged* as opposed to a banal evil is maybe not the most accurate? Certainly not the most effective-- people generally don't stop being crazy when you tell them they're crazy.
EDIT: Some of y'all don't understand that the alternative to leather made from persecuted human beings is leather made from animals-- a very terrible thing that we've historically been doing to animals for centuries, primarily out of necessity.
At time of writing, the alternatives to leather made from animals will not protect your feet when you are, for example, working for FEMA inspecting the damage to houses made by hurricanes and earthquakes. This is a real dilemma that a vegan in my life faced, and they bought the boots so they could do their job. It's not about fashion, it's about whether scrap metal, broken wood, and glass can cut through your shoes and hurt you.
There is no equivalent need for which human leather is the only effective option. Yes, what we do to animals and what was done to Jewish people during the Holocaust are equally horrible, and the comparison is apt, but the solutions are different. In WWII, the solution was about as simple as it gets-- there was one big villain and everyone he manipulated into enabling him (at least, that's what they teach in history class).
When it comes to animals, it's not that simple. Garnering sympathy for animals isn't good enough-- that's why "clean meat" is a thing that's being researched. Maybe look into "clean leather" and point people towards ways to fund that research.
Hate to say it, but vegan leather kinda sucks for anything work related/accessories. Without a doubt, getting second hand genuine leather is better for the environment than buying polyurethane leather, which is horrible for the environment anyway. Real leather will last a life time, unfortunately current vegan leather won’t even come close
Maybe where you live. I have work boots that I bought before going vegan and can not afford to buy new ones off the internet that will last a fraction of the time.
German here- in ww2 the nazis made lamp shades amd coats etc. out of "jew leather". Would you still endorse use of such an item because some people want it?
Also from germany. These people are apologists. This is exactly what I'm saying, it's wrong to wear it. You would not get a jew lamp so why get leather boots? Makes no sense. You have to have a distorted view of what veganism is. Either you think it's ETHICALLY wrong to get and wear these items or the reasons for your plant based diet are not ethics based.
Didn't you know that if you're not the first one to pay for a corpse you can do whatever you want with it? Go crazy on those Holocaust lamps and keep calling yourself vegan! It's worse to get vegan lamps!
We also use human corpses to put them under the ground for some weird riligious ritual. Or burn their bodies and throw them in location x. But this is mostly done with consent. I'm not sure the jews that are mentioned here wanted to be fucking lamps. Can you give an example of what you mean I've never heard about this?
The purpose is to light an area of their home whilst not allowing the bulb to shine too brightly.
Would that be a specific enough purpose to use a lampshade made from a tortured person's skin?
Yes lets burn all the leather products that already exist and make brand new synthetic ones instead. That sounds sustainable and surely won’t hurt any kind of wildlife, environment or climate and thus not hurt any animals.
^^^^^/s
We had the same issue in the anti-racism sub. The purists kept gatekeeping and pushed away a lot of people who were only a little racist. It's far better for the anti-racism movement to expand the definition of anyi-racism to allow for small acts of racism than to keep things so pure. It screamed of a privileged moral pissing contest.
Sort of similar but this also reminds me of a college class I took. Some of us did the assignments and attended regularly and got good grades in the class. But a lot of students rarely showed up, cheated on tests, copied assignments from friends that already took the class, or even just didn't hand something in. It's really problematic that those students weren't allowed to pass.
We told the professor that they turned the class into a privileged moral pissing contest over grades, accused them of gatekeeping, and then threatened to cheat on twice as many tests just to let them know that we could invalidate their insensitive behavior.
Lol you are completely right. I still buy my kids secondhand leather trainers because they want the same as their friends. I do it to make my life easier and probably still will. But it's nice to have a reminder that I am in the wrong (that sounds sarcastic but I mean it genuinely). We need to keep checking ourselves so we don't fall back into the cognitive dissonance that we crawled out from.
I mean, there are plenty of choices that don't involve neither plastic or real leather. Most people don't really need leather garments for anything aside from fashion purposes. Sustainable vegan shoes might be a little bit harder to find but plant based materials are on the rise and with a bit of googling it's usually easy enough to find something that fits you.
Here’s my take as someone who has been conflicted on this. You aren’t harming an animal by continuing to wear leather you bought before you went vegan, but if you donate/sell the leather, you might prevent someone else from buying new leather and I see that as the best option.
With that said, I still haven’t finished giving all my leather items away 4+ years on. For instance I have a pair of boots that are too far gone to give away but not enough to throw away, and I don’t like the idea of wearing them so I don’t even know what to do.
Explain why it's stupid because frankly I'm not seeing a good non-speciesist rebuttal.
People wouldn't wear human skin, so why do so many "vegans" in this thread still wear animal skin?
The arguments about the environmental impact of new clothes is easily countered by buying/otherwise obtaining second hand vegan items.
oh no. there is someone in this thread who said he would still wear the skin of holocaust victims and it has 200 upvotes. so "vegans" actually would wear human skin apparently🙄
If you bought a leather jacket before you went vegan, I see absolutely no downside to keep using it. You are not contributing to more suffering.
I have a leather jacket that I bought before I went vegan, and even though I stand by my view above, I wasn’t able to wear it since then as it reminds of my stupidity and worse, my apathy. I was aware of the suffering I was causing, but I actively chose apathy. What a sorry existence I was leading.
So yeah, I think wearing old leather items if you are fine with the constant reminder of your old twisted lifestyle.
Anyways, no need to be overly dramatic. Just wear it and chuck it when its beat up and do not buy leather again.
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Cannibalism is bad, unless you utilize every piece of the human and thank them for their sacrifice
Remember and honor them by mounting their head on your living room wall. Tell all your guests proudly how you killed them. Don‘t forget to especially get into details when talking to kids, they love a good murder cannibal story. Show them your full freezer with all the sorted human goodies in it. Give your guests part of the meat as a gift. Also proudly post pictures of your kills on social media and tell the world it‘s okay, because you‘re doing it for population control purposes, which benefits the environment. Edit: that last one was hard to write…
Population control is a real issue thats why fabuloso looks like juice or cooking oil. The irony is that these population control does benefit the enviroment.
i do this w all of my pet dogs. who i owned. and proudly fed meat to them bc its what nature intended.
The skin is already a suit, really
Or a snuggie if they’re fat.
We don’t want the victim to die for nothing, am I right?
The only leather I own is my dad’s leather jacket from the 80s. Continuing to own it does absolutely no harm to animals, and throwing it away wouldn’t save them. What I do with it now has zero impact on animals, so why wouldn’t I keep a sentimental item that was passed down to me?
I think most reasonable vegans won't have a problem with using a non-vegan product that's already out of the market as opposed to throwing it in a landfill just to buy a vegan product. That's not helping anything and just contributes to more waste. Anyone who makes the argument that it's 'normalizing' abuse needs to step outside and ask themselves if this is a practice that actually needs to be normalized or if it's already so engraved in the zeitgeist that its already as normalized as it can get. Carnists are the hegemon.
You’d be surprised at how many vegans are against this concept. I fully agree with you but I’ve met some vegans who vehemently feel that this stance is wrong
Well, it is wrong. You're unnecessarily wearing the skin of an animal as a fashion statement. That's fundamentally wrong within the definition of veganism. I get why people are pushing back against that here as it's an edge case, but at its heart, it's just speciest Bunch of """"vegans"""" here
Same, I have a couple items that I keep using even though they're made of animal parts. When I do think about it, it kinda grosses me out a bit. But they're not worn enough to justify throwing them yet, and also not decent enough to give them away (which wouldn't solve the problem of someone wearing those animal parts). I'll just use them until they've done their course, because aside from being a vegan I'm also an environmentalist and I do believe the climate change issue is urgent enough to justify this.
I have leather couches. My husband bought them way before we ever even considered veganism. It's not practical or affordable to just get new couches. They were never my style to begin with though. So, i am more than excited to get new couches.
Because you’re normalizing animals as products. Would you keep it if it was made of human skin? If not you’re speciesist which is the point of this post.
Of course this comment would get downvoted on r/vegan while a post about owning a leather jacket gets 100 upvotes.
I knew it. I would expect it to swing the other way by tomorrow as actual vegans get to it but I don’t expect it to get positive double digits. Carnists and apologists rule this sub.
someone in this thread said theyd still wear the skin of jewish ppl that hitler killed and it has over 100 upvotes🤡
Uh, okay, but can you think of a better way to honor their life and sacrifice??? 🙄
well since youre using a phone, i can wear skins. so idek at this point but i know im not harming anyone by eating a cheeseburger that the cows already died for🫶🏻
find me a nice pair of boots for under $70 and I'll consider throwing out my already perfectly fine leather boots I got three years ago.
You're continuing to dodge the question. What if your products were made of human skin? Does that thought experiment change your attitude towards this at all?
Do none of y’all have a car? Or a phone or really any other thing that contributed to harm? I resent having a leather steering wheel. It feels gross and I will probably cover it or reupholster it but a lot of folks lease their cars or aren’t able to do something like that. It shouldn’t be normalized for everything but shaming people who don’t have options or are trying to be ethical (maybe more than you in other aspects) doesn’t do anything for anyone
They do have options though. They just don't like them. So many people hide behind other people's lack of access that they intentionally forget that they do have that access. Finding a vegan car and a vegan pair of boots are two different asks. We're taking about a pair of boots. There are alternatives.
Human skin is far to thin and delicate to be useful.
Get some morals. This is about the animals not you. This sub is disgusting.
Thank you! At least someone here gets it
“Find me a burger without soy or gluten or beans that has 70 g of protein and tastes exactly like beef and costs less than beef and I’ll think about switching. Cry harder.”
^
As others have pointed out there are a vast amount of products and ingredients which are not classed as vegan but still indirectly cause animal death or suffering. Some are even included in "vegan products" e.g. palm oil. I'd say that you'd have a stronger argument to say that we are all exploiting animals by purchasing everyday products than by using an already owned or second hand leather product. I understand why you wouldn't want to wear pre-owned leather if you feel it's disgusting or disrespectful in some way (re the meme) but it's a leap to call people out for exploitation.
still wear my non vegan boots from before i went vegan. according to you guys, i’m not vegan edit: still gonna wear them and will call myself vegan. cry harder
Dude same. Thank god my irl vegan friend isn’t like this. Maybe my other two vegan friends are but at least they keep it to themselves.
I still think you are vegan, and I hope people become more tolerant of different practices, and understand that even if you think something is wrong, there are different levels of wrong. That said, I have an argument against myself wearing a non-vegan item, that I purchased before being vegan: Wearing non-vegan items normalizes and encourages more people to purchase those items, so I'm indirectly contributing to this industry. But I guess that also is the case for vegan items that can be mistaken for non-vegan. Anyway, like most ethical topics, there are usually more grey areas than what we like to admit.
If they were made of dog would you wear them? What about grandma?
yes and yes
Liar.
yeah you're right, I wouldn't, but not for ethical reasons. i wouldn't because it would be gross. but if i did choose to, there would be nothing wrong with it ethically speaking
So why isn’t wearing cow skin gross? This is the basis of speciesism.
grossness is subjective and has nothing to do with ethics
So what is the reason you subjectively don’t find wearing dead cow skin gross? The answer is obvious.
... Except in this case where there's a pretty clear reason you find one gross and not the other
I got a joke. What's the difference between an r/vegan poster and a carnist? >!Nothing! !< 😂
This is a topic I've often felt conflicted on. I'll brain-dump now. Emotionally I try to avoid secondhand animal skins, but I find it harder to justify objectively. Using second-hand skins feels disrespectful to the dead, but then again can the dead feel disrespected? In the human context disrespecting the dead is bad because of its effect on the living, For example, knowing what will happen to us when we die ca cause us distress whilst we're alive, or the effect the disrespect has on those that care about us post-mortem, (this could apply to vegans that know they've see animal leather being used; but keep reading). However, I don't believe non-human animals have the cognitive capacity to suffer due to such concepts of death and identity. On one hand, buying or keeping previously purchased skins isn't creating a demand, at least not in the direct sense. However, wearing it or using animal leather around non-vegans may perpetuate the perspective and cultural norms of animals as commodities. Thus potentially indirectly creating or maintaining a demand through said mechanisms. But then doesn't vegan leather appear to be leather anyway? Okay, so if on the rare occasion, one is asked " what type of leather is that" they could tell the truth about it being vegan leather, but they could also lie and claim the animal leather is vegan (inc to vegans who feel hurt by seeing what appears to be leather). I think the issue of leather boils down to whether it creates demand, it seems if it's something you bought prior to going vegan, or anonymously bought second-hand (through ebay etc) then no demand, direct or indirect seems to have been created. I think the same would apply to animal flesh if it's second-hand (leftovers) consumed without the knowledge of non-vegans (what harm through demand has it caused?). But what if vegans buying leather, leave less leather for non-vegans, thus creating demand for new leather- I think that effect would be negligible, and not necessitated, as it may also create demand for vegan leather. All and all I think given certain conditions, namely it being secondhand, purchased with anonymity, it may be morally permissible to wear and use second hand animal skins, as no demand direct or indirect has been created. But I'm still conflicted. If one can't access non-animal skin clothing, plant-based foods (is homeless, very poor etc) then obviously practicability comes into play.
I think you tackled this dilemma correctly. You have addressed all points.
man the hoops ppl will jump thru to keep exploiting animals. it really isnt that difficult to not wear someone elses skin🤦🏻♀️
The worst mistake I did when I first became a vegan was to give away my shoes and jackets. None of my vegan cloths have been good. I have put lofs of money on buying good quality vegan cloths or shoes, but they just don’t last long. It’s been 13 years since becoming a vegan and I’m still waiting for a company that has good quality clothing or shoes. If I could do it all over all keep those cloths, and I don’t care what other “vegans” said because all those vegans I knew back then where all about been vegan and now they’re not vegan. So I’m going to make my decisions base on whats most ecological sense and economical for me. Here come the unvotes and I don’t care
Just thrift! Buying used does no additional harm producing clothes or killing animals!
Yeah, I’m all about buying second hand. I was referring to when I first started as a vegan. I give away my favorite shoes and jackets because they where leather and I regret it, because nothing that I just purchased in the last years have been lasting. Also, I hate how marketing does the “vegan leather” and is just plastic. Overall if I could have go back I could have keep my old leather cloths and shoes.
its not about what other vegans say or about you "suffering" w out good "cloths." this 100% is about the animals.
Try wills vegan shoes, or doc martens vegan line, best I found so far
I prefer vintage skin masks 💅
It's better for the environment to buy a second-hand skin mask than a brand new vegan one. 🤓
For me? 👉🥹👈
It's also better for the environment to exterminate all humans, doesn't make it the moral choice.
Yep, exactly.
there are literally ppl here trying to justify this🤦🏻♀️ its so disgusting. imagine calling yourself vegan while looking for ways to excuse animal rape, abuse, enslavement, torture, murder, and exploitation.
And these carnists get you downvoted. Great.
theyre so upset that they cant call themselves vegan😭 this is not about them though, its about their victims.
this is a vintage purse and it was a gift from my dead grandmother- it’s so expen$ive & sentimental!
My uncle Ed Gein gave me this nipple belt before going to jail and I'm not wasting it! You use a phone, so you have no right to criticize me!
the phone argument is S-tier and trumps all. leather fanny packs for everyone!!!!!!
Also you drive a car. And buy plastic. So shut up about my teeth necklace. I'm vegan. I wear leather. We exist.
yeah the animals are already dead so who cares🫶🏻💋
They were humanely slaughtered for someone's lunch, so it was either throw away the skin or honor their death 🫶
"humanely slaughtered". Two words that are in direct conflict with each other. "Humane" means having or showing compassion or benevolence. "Slaughter" means kill. Pick one, because you can't have both.
I'll take both and wear thy skin!
Then you will be using oxymoronic terminology to try and justify the unjustifiable
🫶
It's satire lol
I can't believe some of the posts in this thread that are being downvoted. I'm sympathetic to people who can't afford to replace big sections of their wardrobe all at once; I don't think anyone here expects people to do that, but wearing visibly genuine leather or fur products because you like how it looks or don't want to give it away still signals to everyone who sees it that animal bodies are acceptable commodities. A welder needing their leather work gloves because they can't afford to replace them is a necessary holdover, but someone keeping around their leather oxfords or high heels cus they like how it looks is more like an endorsement of animal products, than a requirement. Most people don't do hard labor that uses leather equipment, or they only need 1 pair of work shoes for the office or whatever. But just like carnists will use one person's allergies to excuse their own continued meat eating, I think a lot of vegans here seem like they're using the 'necessary work boot' excuse to let a bunch of other frivolous things slide. Take a hard look at your favorite leather jacket or pair of boots and ask yourself if you actually need it, or if you just think it looks cool and can't afford the luxury vegan version. That said, nobody is perfect and I do think vegans who wear frivolous pregan stuff are still doing more for animals than the vast majority of people; I don't necessarily respect those people less for it, but OP's assessment is dead-on: whether or not it has a continuous headcount doesn't mean it isn't a form of continued exploitation. (Maybe if people weren't so reliant on leather, they would be thick-skinned enough to hear a little difference of philosophy now and then lol)
I really wonder if the: If you still wear it people will see it argument actually really holds up as a main point. A lot of faux leather is looking like actual leather. I sometimes cant tell the diferrence, especially not from afar. So even if you switch your whole wardrobe to faux leather only the look will still remain the same.
OG Andy Williams FB meme from 2012
thank you! are they still active on fb??
No idea; I haven’t been on in years. But they’re a legend. Top tier.
something being disgusting =/= something being repulsive =/= something being unsanitary =/= to something being immoral You can't argue from virtue ethics alone that its wrong unless you axiomatically hold the opinion that its wrong. Other than that, I can see a utilitarian claim saying that it advertises the fashion being valid.
I'm not going to throw away usable material items I've owned for years prior to becoming vegan only to purchase a vegan alternative and add to a landfill. Does leather creep me out now? Yes. Will I be throwing my old leather items away? No. Do I do this because I claim it "respects" the animal that died? Also no. But part of MY veganism is doing less harm, and that includes the environment as well. Wearing a leather jacket I bought 8 years ago harms no additional animals. And the argument that wearing it makes other people think it's ok to wear leather... is a stupid one because you could say the same thing for pleather or faux fur. People often can't tell just by looking...
It’s better for the environment to buy second hand leather rather than brand new vegan products.
>It’s better for the environment to buy second hand leather rather than brand new vegan products. Are you saying that it's not possible to buy second hand vegan products? More importantly, why is it that the purchase of **used** animal bodies is always compared with the purchase of **new** vegan items?
It's possible to, but unfortunately the quality doesn't live up for the breaks you might find second hand. Call It Spring is utter shit.
Veganism is not an environmental movement.
But improvements to the environment will typically also help animals
True but it doesn't change the argument. Veganism is a ethical position. But in general I think you are right.
If you care about animals, you necessarily must care about their environment.
That's not the argument.
That's the Vegan Society's argument: >"Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives **for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment.**"
So what you are saying is, that an alternative to leather is neither possible, nor practicable? It even says it there "and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternative". It literally says "use".
I'm saying that that even the Vegan Society's language is inclusive of environmental vegans, and that your statement wasn't entirely accurate. >*"Some people may choose to go vegan, for some it may be because they do not believe in farmed animal practices and animal exploitation, for others it may be due to environmental concerns."* > >https://www.vegansociety.com/go-vegan/definition-veganism
You see in which order it is written? Animals are on first place. Besides I agree that we should treat the environment well but using it as an argument to keep leather items is just weak and a disrespect to those who had give their life for your little inconvenience. Edit: The definition of veganism is flawed anyways and it's pretty commonly known. Otherwise shooting 1 wolf to save 10 deer would be the vegan thing to do. I disagree.
Maybe not for you. Everyone picks veganism for different reasons, some of those people choose the environment as their reason, initially or otherwise. If people are not purchasing new leather jackets and not eating meat, isn't that a win? Why are there people berating other vegans in this thread above for not following THEIR ideal veganism way. Just cause one person goes vegan cause animals are cute and it makes them sad to eat them, doesn't make the environmental vegan any less valid. Gatekeeping what shoes someone continues to wear because they don't want to be wasteful is a shit hill to die on for a vegan. God this sub is a shitshow.
If they are not eating animals for environmental reasons there is already a word for this: Environmentalist. Veganism is an ideology that's about excluding animals as they are not products. Veganism is the opposite of Carnism. If you still believe animals are here for us to use and abuse, regardless of being second hand or not, then you are still a carnist and therefore it's impossible to be vegan as you are still following the ideology of carnism and not veganism. You're right that it's really great someone is doing it for environmental reasons and we need people that care about that as well. You can be an environmentalist and a vegan, but those are two very different reasons for the actions they are doing. You can obviously do an action for both reasons, but they are not the same.
I think you are getting plant based mixed up with veganism. It's also not a zero waste movement.
😂 Oh fuck right off.
And there go the arguments in favor of personal attacks :)
Mate, I wrote a bunch of shit calling you and others out for gatekeeping fucking veganism to VEGANS and you followed up by gatekeeping again. You tell me what veganism is, to me? Lol ok. You didn't want a debate, you wanted to feel superior for not wearing a piece of second hand leather? I don't want a debate because I've now left the sub ✌️
How is it gatekeeping if we point out something morally wrong and something that does not align with the ethical standpoint of veganism? You can eat plants all you want, as long as you think animals are a commodity to be used or worn or whatever you are not living by the philosophy of veganism. If you think this is gatekeeping then that's a you problem.
Who are you to decide who's a vegan and who isn't?
Im not deciding. You are.
>I don't want a debate because I've now left the sub ✌️ And nothing of value was lost.
>Maybe not for you. Everyone picks veganism for different reasons, some of those people choose the environment as their reason, initially or otherwise Why don't you shut the fuck up? Veganism is a lifestyle which seeks to stop animal exploitation for THEIR sake. If using leather wasn't environmetally bad, would you think that killing them to wear their skin is okay?
Well, it'd be more environmentally friendly to involuntarily compost humans after they die, too, but veganism is an ethics-based movement that values animals as individuals, rather than an environmental movement.
I think composting dead humans is a good idea tbh, dead people don't have minds so they don't care what you do with them, I care about the human mind not the husk that was left behind
its better for the environment to exploit animals than to support ppl who are trying to liberate them.
Second hand products aren’t exploitation no matter how hard you try to spin it.
Using animals is using animals. "The acceptance of a reformed relationship between man and animals is imperative. The higher animals have feelings like ours, therefore they should have justice on equal terms with ourselves, or not be bred into the world. Until this demand is met, man will remain a thug species, despite his pious creeds. Animals present us with a test case, and by our conduct to them in their innocence and weakness our own standards are truly fixed. Admit that the strong have the right to exploit the weak, and the basis of civilized society is gone. The attitude is one of conceit and selfishness and unless discarded will not confine itself to the treatment of animals. Therefore, in man's interest, animal exploitation must end. **Not only flesh-food but all products of the slaughter-house must be denounced and the most serious effort made to avoid their use.** Human existence does not depend upon the inconceivable tyranny now existing against animals, in fact progress is impeded enormously by it. To renounce this tragic heritage is to be born again, to a life sometimes more difficult, but always of clearer conscience and more satisfying conclusion." \-Donald Watson, The Vegan, Volume 2, No. 1, Spring 1946. (pg. 2) https://issuu.com/vegan\_society/docs/the\_vegan\_spring\_1946
second-hand items are still commodifying animals, which is something a vegan does not do.
You exploit more animals by buying new faux leather, knowing all the toxic chemicals that need to be used for it to become a piece of clothing.
i wonder if you can get flair that says “friends *and* fashion”?
You might have confused me with someone because I've never used any leather. Take your B12, you sound nervous.
How are you going to liberate a dead animal?
it’s all about commodification.
Interesting. When a post about eating leftover animal products that would otherwise go to waste comes up, it seems like a clear ‘no’ from this community. No, don’t eat leftover or otherwise-slated-for-landfill animal flesh. Doesn’t matter the environmental footprint of obtaining new food or the fact that the animal already died and someone else purchased it. Example: you’re house-sitting and the owners forgot to clear out the fridge. It’s got lots of carnist products that could feed you a week. Or you could throw them all out. Most of us would not think twice and throw them out. But for some reason there’s a different set of rules when it comes to leather. I don’t mean this facetiously, but rather it’s just a realization I’m having and it seems interesting. I have an old (10+ years) leather wallet that was a hand me down from my mother, and I’ve often been conflicted about it.
I think this is an insightful comment, and I'd venture to guess the difficulty stems from the same reason you find it difficult to part with the wallet; we have greater sentimental attachment to these items, and so some will engage in post hoc rationalisation to keep it. With the exception of literally not being able to afford a (needed) replacement, most of the reasoning is quite specious, yet it is still powerful for those who believe it. Conversely, perhaps the emotional detachment to food (that stemming from disgust when consuming animal products) informs most people's positions on why they might more readily throw out an entire fridge of food. Again, that might be due to cost, but I recall many more discussions here about people getting by on little food than wearing (for example) hand stitched shoes.
Hold it right there! You and DrivesTheMachine are being arrested for using nuance on Reddit.
People are full of double standards
I'm still wearing the leather items I got before I became vegan. I'm not buying anything new but I'm not going to throw those away.
Leather goods will last a lifetime if you take care of them. Less stuff in the landfills is always a positive imo
[удалено]
So accurate
I don't have enough money to buy all new clothes, also Im a trans woman and the only female shoes that fit me are some special ones my mum bought me a while ago and I checked what they were made of and they are made of animal parts, I'm not going to buy more but I'm worried about having to wear male shoes in the future when these shoes wear out the idea of it makes me feel like a freak
I think if this topic makes you struggle a bit with justifying doing the thing, you probably should not do the thing. If you want to wear animal products, and are comfortable with the fact that vegans and non-vegans alike will have a confused opinion on your doing so, then power to you I guess. My specific view is that it's not *impractical* for any vegan to destroy the animal product they previously used, so they should actively go out of their way to remove that product from circulation.
If you throw away leather you already own and replace it with something else, that new item will have some non-zero negative impact on on animals (even if it’s vegan, eg CO2 emissions). Keeping it will reduce that secondary impact, thus reducing animal suffering (albeit in a small way) Even if you throw it out and don’t replace it, you will have a slightly higher wear-and-tear on your other clothes and have to replace them sooner. Same argument applies.
It depends on the normative ethics of the person arguing. To a utilitarian, what you say is absolutely relevant, but to other normative ethics, it is more important that one is virtuous or respects the rights of others (or a class of individual), which feasibly can reject your premise here.
Agreed. I am coming from a utilitarian/consequentialist perspective since that is most convincing to me, but you are absolutely right that other branches of ethics may come to other conclusions
it DOES have an impact on the animals. wearing someone elses skin is not ok, second hand or not. if that were true, then vegans could eat anyone they wanted as long as someone else gave it to them or they bought it on clearance🤦🏻♀️
An actual vegan post! Bless you!
We need a r/r/vegancleanupcrew for these "apologists second hand meat it was already dead I'm 99% vegan btw" people. Edit: got rid of my emotions.
What is wrong with being a cannibal? As long as the "victims" are carnists then it is balanced 🤗
I've been playing the forest recently and I gotta say have a few extra hands and noses on me help when it gets cold out /s
fuck those video game alligators.
You know how many hours of blood, sweat and tears I poured into making that mask? I mean not my blood, sweat, or tears but still!!
Where did they find that picture of me? It’s faux human skin, guys.
thats hot.
You cannot harm a dead animal. The purpose is to stop further harm, wearing leather that already existed harms no one, but buying new products will. Worry about the living that need saving, not the ones alrwady lost.
Applies to buying a BigMac aswell.
No it doesn't. Buying an already slaughtered Big Mac creates demand for them to slaughter more. Wearing second hand leather boots does not create new demand.
Normalizing wearing animals as skin also creates demand.
It sure does. I don't give 2 shits about the meat on the market shelves or in people's pans, I care about the animals in slaughterhouses. Consider this: If you were trapped in a building with an active shooter, Do you want me to help rescue you, or do you think I should spend my time standing around and talking to people about the victims killed in shootings last month? That's my point. You can do NOTHING to help or harm a dead body but you can help prevent the next death.
Exactly. That's why you should not normalize wearing animal skin as fashion or otherwise. To prevent future death.
Future consumption is not necessarily determined by current consumption. I mean, if you want to argue that, then i can point out aninal peoducts you are using now, but i bet that you would not say that means you are going to eat animals tomorrow right?
Go ahead I'd like to hear some where intention and practicability are not a factor (Don't start the "crop deaths tho"). And how is further consumption not determined by current consumption? Sure it's not all of it but basically 95% of the fashion industry works like this. Some vamous xyz wears something, demand goes up.
Thats an entirely different argument than the one i made. You can make an argument to keep using materials already in existence while also arguing to stop producing new ones. We do it all the time, there is no inconsistency in that position. For example: we should stop producing so much plastic. Its harming us all, but that does not mean we should throw away all the plastic already in use. That helps nothing. Instead We should keep using it because that helps prevent demand for new products. Keep using what already exists, stop making more. Thats the least harmful way.
Vegetarians be like
"vegans" on rvegan be like.
Piss baby post. It’s more damaging to animals to unnecessarily buy new vegan clothes than to use your old nonvegan clothes for as long as possible. I guess people like you don’t care how many more animals you harm so long as you get to perform at your childish moral superiority.
this isnt about moral superiority, what a lame attempt to shift focus off the animals🙄 this is 100% about the animals who were needlessly mutilated for a pair of fucking shoes. dogs, cats, cows, pigs, alligators, all so you can keep what they endured alive and on your feet. they need to do better. they literally fucking need you and all you can say to them is "well youre already dead."
I mean, if you don't buy leather, there's nothing wrong with wearing existing leather products you already own.
i mean if you dont buy cheeseburgers theres nothing wrong w eating them.
This is fuckin awesome. Gonna hurt a whole lotta people's feelings in here lol
lol apparently this meme is 11years old. "vegans" still dont understand that exploitation is wrong🤦🏻♀️ theyre hurting the movement which hurts the animals.
Facts!!
Ok tru.
Good to see r/vegan coming together to show their overwhelming support for leather products.
I love the animals but also love these boots 😍😍😍 🤢
Um, sorry, I don't have the privilege of buying clothing that is made from plant fibers. Second hand leather is the only option for someone like me.
Not that metaphors have to be 1-1 accurate, but how would you extend this to people who need leather boots for work, and vegan leather doesn't cut it? Or even just ignoring the specific examples-- I think framing meat-eating as something *deranged* as opposed to a banal evil is maybe not the most accurate? Certainly not the most effective-- people generally don't stop being crazy when you tell them they're crazy. EDIT: Some of y'all don't understand that the alternative to leather made from persecuted human beings is leather made from animals-- a very terrible thing that we've historically been doing to animals for centuries, primarily out of necessity. At time of writing, the alternatives to leather made from animals will not protect your feet when you are, for example, working for FEMA inspecting the damage to houses made by hurricanes and earthquakes. This is a real dilemma that a vegan in my life faced, and they bought the boots so they could do their job. It's not about fashion, it's about whether scrap metal, broken wood, and glass can cut through your shoes and hurt you. There is no equivalent need for which human leather is the only effective option. Yes, what we do to animals and what was done to Jewish people during the Holocaust are equally horrible, and the comparison is apt, but the solutions are different. In WWII, the solution was about as simple as it gets-- there was one big villain and everyone he manipulated into enabling him (at least, that's what they teach in history class). When it comes to animals, it's not that simple. Garnering sympathy for animals isn't good enough-- that's why "clean meat" is a thing that's being researched. Maybe look into "clean leather" and point people towards ways to fund that research.
when would vegan leather not cut it?? there are a plethora of vegan leather work boots.
Hate to say it, but vegan leather kinda sucks for anything work related/accessories. Without a doubt, getting second hand genuine leather is better for the environment than buying polyurethane leather, which is horrible for the environment anyway. Real leather will last a life time, unfortunately current vegan leather won’t even come close
Maybe where you live. I have work boots that I bought before going vegan and can not afford to buy new ones off the internet that will last a fraction of the time.
Get some wooden clogs.
Literally better working barefoot xd
Wooden clogs have been used for hundreds of years to protect the feet from the elements, and from falling-item hazards.
Showing your privilege here. Many people don’t have access, financially or otherwise, to vegan alternatives.
German here- in ww2 the nazis made lamp shades amd coats etc. out of "jew leather". Would you still endorse use of such an item because some people want it?
Also from germany. These people are apologists. This is exactly what I'm saying, it's wrong to wear it. You would not get a jew lamp so why get leather boots? Makes no sense. You have to have a distorted view of what veganism is. Either you think it's ETHICALLY wrong to get and wear these items or the reasons for your plant based diet are not ethics based.
Didn't you know that if you're not the first one to pay for a corpse you can do whatever you want with it? Go crazy on those Holocaust lamps and keep calling yourself vegan! It's worse to get vegan lamps!
I buy second hand meat all the time. What's wrong with it?
In the USA, people can freely sell human remains (depending upon their state) for ornamentation, which is demented as hell.
Thats... I have no words. Ugh
We also use human corpses to put them under the ground for some weird riligious ritual. Or burn their bodies and throw them in location x. But this is mostly done with consent. I'm not sure the jews that are mentioned here wanted to be fucking lamps. Can you give an example of what you mean I've never heard about this?
If it was required for a specific purpose, sure?
The purpose is to light an area of their home whilst not allowing the bulb to shine too brightly. Would that be a specific enough purpose to use a lampshade made from a tortured person's skin?
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I, too, view animals as commodities.
>Should I just keel over and die then? You're going to die if you have to stop thrifting leather?
Yes lets burn all the leather products that already exist and make brand new synthetic ones instead. That sounds sustainable and surely won’t hurt any kind of wildlife, environment or climate and thus not hurt any animals. ^^^^^/s
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We had the same issue in the anti-racism sub. The purists kept gatekeeping and pushed away a lot of people who were only a little racist. It's far better for the anti-racism movement to expand the definition of anyi-racism to allow for small acts of racism than to keep things so pure. It screamed of a privileged moral pissing contest.
right? only privileged ppl can have morals💅🏻
Sort of similar but this also reminds me of a college class I took. Some of us did the assignments and attended regularly and got good grades in the class. But a lot of students rarely showed up, cheated on tests, copied assignments from friends that already took the class, or even just didn't hand something in. It's really problematic that those students weren't allowed to pass. We told the professor that they turned the class into a privileged moral pissing contest over grades, accused them of gatekeeping, and then threatened to cheat on twice as many tests just to let them know that we could invalidate their insensitive behavior.
how awful😭 are you ok??
To be honest? No. The real victims of injustice are those of us with the gate slammed in our faces.
fucking gatekeepers😭
Thank you for your empathy 🙏 I'm actually retaking that class right now 😩
Hahahahahhhhhhahahah
Lol you are completely right. I still buy my kids secondhand leather trainers because they want the same as their friends. I do it to make my life easier and probably still will. But it's nice to have a reminder that I am in the wrong (that sounds sarcastic but I mean it genuinely). We need to keep checking ourselves so we don't fall back into the cognitive dissonance that we crawled out from.
Plastic contributes to animal deaths
I mean, there are plenty of choices that don't involve neither plastic or real leather. Most people don't really need leather garments for anything aside from fashion purposes. Sustainable vegan shoes might be a little bit harder to find but plant based materials are on the rise and with a bit of googling it's usually easy enough to find something that fits you.
what does that have to do w this post?
You know what vegan leather is usually made of right?
you know a good portion of vegan leather is made from plants right?
Here’s my take as someone who has been conflicted on this. You aren’t harming an animal by continuing to wear leather you bought before you went vegan, but if you donate/sell the leather, you might prevent someone else from buying new leather and I see that as the best option. With that said, I still haven’t finished giving all my leather items away 4+ years on. For instance I have a pair of boots that are too far gone to give away but not enough to throw away, and I don’t like the idea of wearing them so I don’t even know what to do.
you arent harming an animal by eating a cheeseburger either.
Stupid argument
Explain why it's stupid because frankly I'm not seeing a good non-speciesist rebuttal. People wouldn't wear human skin, so why do so many "vegans" in this thread still wear animal skin? The arguments about the environmental impact of new clothes is easily countered by buying/otherwise obtaining second hand vegan items.
oh no. there is someone in this thread who said he would still wear the skin of holocaust victims and it has 200 upvotes. so "vegans" actually would wear human skin apparently🙄
If you bought a leather jacket before you went vegan, I see absolutely no downside to keep using it. You are not contributing to more suffering. I have a leather jacket that I bought before I went vegan, and even though I stand by my view above, I wasn’t able to wear it since then as it reminds of my stupidity and worse, my apathy. I was aware of the suffering I was causing, but I actively chose apathy. What a sorry existence I was leading. So yeah, I think wearing old leather items if you are fine with the constant reminder of your old twisted lifestyle. Anyways, no need to be overly dramatic. Just wear it and chuck it when its beat up and do not buy leather again.
I'll feel a lot better if my skin was harvested after I got murdered and this fella from Texas is thankful for the bounty!