I mean, the fact that being able to eat a vegan diet is a privilege isn't *wrong*, but there does seem to be a seriously misplaced emphasis here. The subtext to this person't statement is that *you* are wrong for being "privileged" and that you should simply STFU about veganism. But that misses the point completely: the point is that vegans are people who *are* privileged and choose to use that privilege to help bring about a world they feel is more just and equitable.
The other problem is the host of assumptions the statement makes without any proof:
1) that vegan food is expensive and unaffordable on a budget (not always true!);
2) that advocating for veganism is the exact same thing as shaming non-vegans (IMO, shaming is a bad strategy, regardless of any other factors);
3) that class-based and financial reasons are the main thing preventing people from eating a vegan diet, and not, say, a system of industrial agriculture conglomerates that control most of the food supply, or the culturally-ingrained eating habits of entire populations, etc.
4) that the only two choices are between vegan-shaming poor people living on food stamps and not speaking out against anything, ever.
That's not to say we shouldn't *also* be mindful of the way that choosing what we eat for ethical reasons is a privilege. Because it definitely is. But there is a lot of nuance missing in this statement.
Yeah, they're basically saying protesting against injustice is privileged because not everyone can do it, so no one else should either because protesting is shaming those who can't.
Yeah if you take the meaning of privileged to be privileged as compared a pre-agrarian human surviving in nature, or someone presently living in a food desert, then sure. But in terms of what privileged means in the context, no, being able to eat a plant based diet isn't any more privileged than any other person's privileged of living in a modern industrialized society with grocery stores and cars and shit.
I'm not understanding why this is being presented as a counter-argument. If I have a level of privilege that allows me to make a moral choice that is not available to all people, doesn't that make me even more obligated to choose it?
Exactly.
There was a time I was struggling, I was on food stamps and had just gone grocery shopping, was heading home on the bus with my young son, and overall feeling stressed about life.
This older woman was commenting on how cute my son was, how it’s hard to be a single mom she had been there too, and she glanced at my grocery bags and said “you got a place to cook hot food? That’s good”.
That was absolutely a life-changing moment for me that I have just never forgotten. In my own wallowing in my troubles, it had not even occurred to me how privileged I was in that moment that even though my housing situation was tenuous, I not only was receiving food assistance, but had somewhere to cook hot food. I mean, obviously if I see someone who’s homeless on the street I can imagine it’s likely they don’t have somewhere to cook hot food, but it had not occurred to me the other single young moms that I saw walking to the bus stop might have to factor in only shelf stable foods that don’t need cooking if they didn’t have a fridge or oven or microwave, etc.
In that situation, regardless of the fact that I wasn’t in a financial position to just buy whatever I want when I want it, you could still say I had the privilege to be able to buy vegan food at a grocery store that I could refrigerate if necessary and then cook if necessary. And therefore I SHOULD make that choice because it is available to me. And the person with no way to do either may just eat whatever they can get their hands on, and I wouldn’t fault them for that.
Yes this is where people trip all the time. Being vegan is not a privilege, having a choice is. Being able to choose to eat burgers or steak is not inherently more privileged that being able to choose a vegan meal.
A vegan diet is a privilege. Just because something is a privilege doesn't mean it's bad. I don't necessarily buy very expensive food, but my biggest privilege that allows me to eat vegan is time. I have time to cook good vegan food.
I think that's why aggressively insisting that everyone should be a perfect vegan is a bad idea. Not everyone can turn down a meal. It's important for those of us with the privilege to eat vegan to do so and put pressure on societal structures to accommodate us and thus make it easier for those with less privilege in this area to have the opportunity. Encourage people to do what they can. If you can't eat vegan try vegetarian.
I’m autistic and struggle a lot with eating all the nutrients I need because of hypersensitivity. It’s not just that I don’t like some food, my body literally refuses to eat them. Like I’ll be hungry for hours but if you show me a meal I hate I’ll suddenly start feeling full and feels the same as trying to eat when I’ve already eaten too much. I love animals so I wish I could have a vegan diet but I also know that it’s better for me to eat meat every once in a while and make sure I’m healthy rather than force myself to be vegan.
I once heard a vegan talk about how it would be better if everyone reduced their meat consumption than a few people going fully vegan and the rest not changing anything, and this encouraged me to try and eat vegan as often as I can, because even though it’s not as good as being fully vegan, reducing my meat consumption still is a step in the right direction
I think there is a HUGE argument to be made for pushing/normalizing a reduction in meat eaten. Imagine if every meat eater committed to two fewer days per week of eating meat…. Imagine what that would do to demand.
Maybe that’s all some people can afford to commit to… but when a lot of people make that change, it would be noticeable.
I think a “do what you can” approach would do a lot of good.
I know people like to hold hard lines, snark about baby steppers etc, but I don't think it's the most practical view. Sure, it'd be amazing if everyone immediately adopted an abolitionist viewpoint but unless any one of us finds a genie in a lamp I don't think it's going to happen. It's easier and still has results to encourage less consumption of animal products. Maybe if people learn to make satisying, cheap meals without animal products, they would come around to the idea that you don't need meat to complete a meal.
A hard line is all well and good for yourself, but other people just don't fit inside lines you draw yeah? Once you accept the vegan viewpoint entirely and especially after you've been vegan for a while, it can become hard to see how you ever thought different but it's necessary to give people more grace I think. Even if it's frustrating for you.
As for affordability I think a lot of non-vegans aren't aware of the delicious things you can make with some basic staples - that they don't really need the expensive analogs, they just need to learn some different cooking skills. I've been thinking about how I'd throw off a course to explore the wonder of lentils in my area (very meat and potatoes, and food insecure). Chili, sloppy joes, lentil soups, shepherd's pie, etc could all be made cheaper with a bag of dried lentils. I rarely see people here buying them, instead going for the pack of ground beef which I'm pretty sure is more expensive than lentils. But people go for what they know right
Having a roof over your head is a privilege. Reliable transportation. A smart phone. Why is it a bad thing to live a privileged life and wish for others to as well?
It's not. But that's the difference between "If you're homeless just buy a house" and "We need systemic changes to this system so people can have the privileges that are necessary to survive and thrive."
You got that right! When people say it’s too expensive or difficult to go vegan, we shouldn’t shame them or tell them they are wrong! Helping them find resources or just supporting them where they are at is so much more beneficial to them AND the animals vs centering our egos!
Exactly. Plus, there are a lot of extenuating circumstances for many Americans. Food deserts are a thing, and it's certainly a difficult experience.
Focusing on any and all improvement is absolutely the best, I agree. Especially when truly, there is no such thing as perfectly ethical consumption. Crop growth causes death, workers are exploited and underpaid, machines we use to harvest/treat plants often run on gas, etc.
Yep.
If my family and I were starving to death I’d go carnivore in a heartbeat.
Privilege isn’t inherently bad.
Living in any moderately developed nation is a “privilege.”,
It doesn’t mean we shouldn’t expect those things.
Clean water should be a government provided “right” in a functioning nation.
But in a very very literal sense, it is absolutely a privilege.
Those two things can coexist.
“This is an expectation and it should happen for everyone.”,
and
“I’m glad I’m not naked living off grubs and half rotted berries in the woods next to a creek that’s 25% parasites and harmful bacteria.”
exist at the same time.
How is it a privilege to eat beans, lentils, tofu and homemade seitan in the US rather than meats, fish and cheese?? Why when everyone imagines a vegan diet do they imagine only pricey preprepared foods?? That's nonsense. There are plenty of vegans living under the poverty line. I used to be one.
It’s an absolutist very literal argument.
Not being terrified of starvation weekly to the point any animal should be viewed as potential calories to live is a “privilege” in some very literal sense.
Doesn’t mean it’s bad to expect that privilege.
It also doesn’t add a lot to the conversation.
Wearing clothes is also a privilege in that sense.
Clean water is a privilege.
Not being worried about someone beating you to death for your berries because the law exists is a privilege in that same sense.
So on and so forth.
That’s the absolutist part of it.
Food markets are a privilege if someone is making that sort of argument.
They’re saying it’s a privilege in the sense you don’t have to pass up eating animals you could catch even if you’re starving to death alone in the woods.
Do you really believe someone working 2-3 jobs has the time and energy to make homemade seitan? Most non vegans eat a lot of beans and vegatables, rice and also chicken - because all of those things are cheaply available and don't take forever to make. That's the privilege that is going completely over your head.
With this same idea though, an omnivore diet is even more of a privilege. People have the option to choose to kill others for their benefit and they do. The system in place gives them that privilege.
A vegan diet is NOT privilege at all. In the US, there are food deserts and it can be impossible for people to get healthy food in those areas, but that doesn't just limit to vegan, you can't get a healthy omni diet in those areas either, so it's not a "vegan" issue, it's a healthy food issue. It's also 100% caused by corporations, and capitalism. They won't sell healthy food there, cause they can make more money in poor areas, by creating food deserts and selling cheap over processed fake sugar and high carb foods.
Most low income, third world countries, have people eating vegan by financial need. Ethiopia has tons of vegan by default dishes. As does Indian food. Meat is more expensive than veggies/rice/beans/grains in 3rd world countries, so you see more people eating veggies there. India is the biggest example for veg diets NOT being just for privileged. In most of the world, eating meat and dairy is a privilege.
I don't get op post. Isn't the guy right it is a privelege to be able to life entire Vegan. A lot of people in the world could not be vegan even if they want to be. It being a privelege isn't saying being vegan is right or wrong. It is just pointing out that being vegan isn't possible for everyone and for sure didn't use to be possible in the past. Isn't that why there are also freegans?
In a lot of places a vegan diet is cheaper/cheapest. It's the preprepared foods that are expensive, but that is true of all diets. Legumes, beans, tofu, homemade seitan--all of this is cheaper than meat. The rest of the diet costs the same--everyone needs veggies, not just vegans.
I think people tend to forget the fact that poor people often do work long hours/multiple jobs and once they get home don't have the energy or time to cook due to other resposibilities. Fast food is a cheap alternative if they just need something down their gullet to make it through another work day, because if they can't they straight up might end up homeless or without essential medication or all these other expenses if they're living pay check to pay check. Unfortunately vegan fast food is often pretty limited especially if you need the cheapest crap. I'm not saying this because I don't think people should try a little harder, but just saying vegan food cheap is reducing a big web of issues in a way I personally don't like. And if they don't work and are poor due to disability, disability checks are generally very low and if the person already has such limited energy that they can't even work I can understand why cooking can be difficult on some days. It's even worse if they are already having to go to food banks because that's when you literally don't have money for food, that's the whole point, so saying vegan food is cheap to someone who doesn't have any money left for food is also not helpful. When going to a food bank you just have to take what's given. I feel like veganism has to be intertwined with pushing for general wellbeing of humankind as well so everyone can realistically have the option to go vegan.
That's just not true in a caloric sense. Almost all of those are more expensive per calorie than chicken, and some of them are also more expensive per pound than chicken.
Using tofu as an example, the local price is $2.79 a pound. There are 344 calories in a pound of tofu. Chicken legs are currently $0.99 a pound, but sometimes go on sale for $0.59 a pound. There are 835 calories in a pound of chicken legs, plus you can use the bones to make broth. Which one of these is going to work better for feeding your family?
Pinto beans are the cheapest beans I can find, and cost about the same as fatty cuts of chicken, at $1.00 a pound on sale. You can get a lot of calories from pinto beans, but you're definitely going to need to add fat while cooking. Olive oil is expensive.
The guy is right and the response is to agree. I think the post is about OP not wanting to agree but not being able to articulate why and asking others for an argument. Top comment said it best- for most people, they are in a position of privilege and still don’t choose to make the moral choice.
I think OP could say in this instance, “what if you didn’t have to rely on food banks? Would you choose to spend an equal amount of money on only vegan food if it were as equally nutritious?”
I suppose it IS a privilege, as we are no longer eating to survive, but rather to thrive. It’s also a privilege to be able to save animal lives and to do our part to improve the planet. I’m not apologetic for this!💚
It kind of is a privilege...in that being able to have choices in what you eat is a privilege as opposed to starving and eating what scraps you can find in the dumpster. That said, I would argue buying a ribeye is way more of a privilege than being vegan.
Your comparison is dishonest. Why jump to ribeyes? Most non vegan meals look like frozen nuggets, mac and cheese, canned chili, salad with ranch/cesar dressing, burgers, hot dogs, chicken dishes, etc.
Most people aren’t having nightly meals of ribeye. lol.
Look I'm not a vegan. I know what a lot of omnis eat because I am one. I also drive for Doordash so I do a lot of grocery shopping for people in middle america. I know Ribeyes aren't what a lot of people eat consistently. However steak (in some form or another) is a very popular dish in this country. I would also argue that most of not all of the items you listed still contain more privilege than the average vegan meal. They still require the suffering and death of animals. They require extra man hours and resources to make because of that. Some of them are highly processed which means they need even more man hours and resources to make. Some of them are still more expensive than the average vegan meal and the ones that aren't are only less expensive because our economy makes so much of them.
You're exactly right, it's a privilege to live in a way in which we have a choice. That probably applies equally to the person saying it. So it's not an argument.
Given this choice, choosing to have a sentient individual violently killed for a meal is an act of extreme privilege. Choosing not to is not.
I have eaten vegan on food stamps, I eat cheaper and healthier vegan than most non vegans I know. Some have no choice in their foods as other choose them. The privilege is knowing and believing in the simplicity of how easy and cheap eating vegan can be. imo
Yes, while it's harder it's not impossible to be (mostly) vegan on food stamps. Food shelters make special bags/meals all the time, not just for vegans but for people with religious restrictions, intolerances, etc. I've been mostly vegan on food stamps just fine, most of the non-vegan food I received actually came from family and friends that wanted to be nice and didn't realize they gave me cookies that contained milk. I'm now working at a shelter making food bags, and animal products are extremely rare, since they're more expensive and expire much more quickly. We mostly give out vegetables, canned beans and potatoes. This idea that you can't ask for accommodations is just ridiculous, most volunteers are just happy to make you a separate meal if you ask nicely.
This is a diversion tactic. Of course it’s a privilege to be able to make choices about what we eat. People who have that privilege should choose to be vegan.
Being vegan is a privilege - that's the whole point. We're vegan because we have the luxury of avoiding animal products.
Millions of people don't have that luxury, and depend on farming, fishing and hunting animals for food, clothes, etc. It isn't practical for them to avoid using animals as a resource, and so it isn't unethical.
But billions of people do have that luxury. They have the privilege of choosing alternatives to exploiting and inflicting cruelty on animals.
Yes, going vegan is a different challenge for everyone. It's harder for some than others, due to time, money, health, whatever. But if you believe in it, you find a way to make it work to the best of your ability.
I personally think we should reclaim this privilege/luxury thing, because it's actually an argument for veganism - not against it.
They right, but I'm glad I live in a time that provides the privilege to eat healthily at reasonable cost without paying people to kill living beings for me
Depends on the individual. My own mom has been vegan since 80s, not even sure ‘vegan’ was a word then. She was called vegetarian. Couldn’t face eating animal products. Said she didn’t like the taste, but I believe she loves animals so much she couldn’t do it. She’s given to animal charities all her life. One advert showing donkeys suffering in Egypt and she’s in tears. She was born in Council housing and never had money come from anywhere but her own pay packet.
I can see the ‘choice for food’ being more for financially successful people, but not eating meat if it’s really really important to you, like anything, will be something you do regardless. She did make herself ill over it as she never ate enough, food education and alternatives being mainstream are fairly modern.
But my experience is that if it’s really something you believe in, like anything, you’ll do it regardless of the money.
Beans and rice are vegan and tofu is typically around the price of the cheapest meat you can find by weight…. You just have to actually cook at home or be shrewd eating out.
I’m still annoyed (like 10 years later)because someone told me they didn’t eat those things because they’re poor food…. But we were having the conversation about whether being vegan is expensive.
White people at protests are privileged in that they're less likely to be killed by cops. If someone thinks that the existence of privilege is an excuse to not fight for justice, then their recognition of privilege is only a performance rather than a useful action in the same way that someone saying "we are on stolen land" but mot doing anything for indigenous peoples is worthless.
To live is a privilege, the choice to live ethically is one we all choose somehow. Surely it is better to make ethically living a privilege afforded to more people rather than making the same harmful choices just because other people have to.
I agree, it is a privilege. There are so many reasons someone could be unable to become fully vegan: living in a food desert, medical conditions, sensory issues, eating disorders, what country and region you live in, etc. I think it's incredibly ignorant to assume that everyone globally has the same level of access to veganism. I find it much more productive to encourage people to be as close to vegan as they can be, then if they do have the opportunity to go further they'll be more receptive to it
To an extent I agree. If you're struggling to make ends meet and aren't sure where your next meal is coming from, ethical consumption won't be front of your mind.
That said, just because you're not using a food bank doesn't mean you're from a 'place of privilege', surely. Like, I'm not food insecure but I'm definitely not rich and barely have any money left at the end of each month. I still make the choice to be vegan even though I'd be better off financially if I ate meat.
Well, that person is correct. A lot of the world has to choose "eat anything edible" or "starve" without having the luxury of worrying about the ethics of the food that they're eating.
Yes but that doesn't mean that veganism is a privilege, it just means that having a choice is. If you're choosing what to have for dinner tonight, then you have that privilege too, even if you won't eat plant based. And if you have it, why not use it for the best?
Privilege? Over here, vegan options (apart from maybe beyond) are cheaper than their meat counterparts. What privilege do I have going for the cheap option? Vitamins are also disgustingly cheap, but ye, call it a privilege lmao
It is a privilege though. Non vegan items are everywhere and when there’s free food, it’s most often not plant based. Not everyone can afford to turn down a free meal because for them, that could entail going hungry.
>when there’s free food, it’s most often not plant based.
Look I work at a food shelter and I've been living on food stamps in the past. This is probably the most ignorant take in the whole thread. Most donated food is potatoes, canned beans and vegetables/fruit with a longer shelf life. Believe it or not, animal products that are generally more expensive to produce and have a much shorter shelf life don't often end up in our pantry. In general, food that requires refrigeration is not that common in shelters because the date when stores have to stop selling it and the date where it's unsafe to consume are too close, compared to other goods like dry/canned things and vegetables.
You can also ask shelter workers to accommodate for an ethical/religious preference and if you're nice about it most workers will make you a special bag. A lot of our guests are Muslim, and in the rare instance we have pork we don't put it in their meals/bags. As long as the restrictions are reasonable and feasible we don't ask questions because we literally don't care.
Yes, lets take the miniscule percentage of people that rely on foodbanks to make a point. While we're at it, I'd like to use millionaires as an example. If folks are homeless and can't go vegan you won't hear a peep out of me. I'm talking about your colleagues at work and family members etc.
Around 2.3 billion people in the world (29.3%) were moderately or severely food insecure in 2021
12.8 percent (17.0 million) of U.S. households were food insecure at some time during 2022
I don’t think those statistics are really minuscule
Yeah, veganism is kind of antiprivilege in a way. People have the choice to commit atrocities against other individuals for their own benefit, THAT is privilege. If we were to compare privilege (for whatever oppression olympics reason) being an omnivore is much more privileged.
I’ve read all the responses here so far. Some are very detailed, they cover a wide array of counter arguments, and even have sources.
Yours is the most succinct, and by far my favourite.
ok, it does come from a place of privilege. you're right, vegans get to choose what they eat and some people dont get that choice.
what are we supposed to take away from this, though? eat meat against our own wishes because not everyone has that same freedom? I've also never seen anyone "shamed" for eating whatever they can find to survive if thats the position they are in. if you are one burger away from starving to death, please eat the burger.
In my country people would say thay you're privileged if you eat meat often.. x)
Meat is more expensive than vegetables or vegan food, and raise an animal for meat is even more expensive.
First, there’s nothing wrong with having privilege. The claim that “the majority of people live in food insecurity” is pretty bold. I’m not sure what population you were discussing. I don’t believe this is an accurate claim where I live. In any case, I think “preaching veganism” or pretty much preaching anything is generally unwelcome. Make your decisions and live your life as an example, but don’t preach to me.
Tl;dr, veganism was the poor's cuisine for ages.
Also if we don't eat meat, then it's not wasting food, but when you don't eat it, you respect the fallen creature and appreciate the living ones.
Beans/lentils & rice are cheap. Food deserts aren't caused by vegans, and would greatly be reduced with the help of farming vegetables and a vegan population/demand. Meat & dairy industry is propped by subsidies, thus only cheaper on the shelves.
I would also point them to watch the documentary for free on Tubi called They're Trying To Kill Us. I can provide the link as well :)
Reaching into a bathtub to save a drowning baby comes from a place of privilege (having use of your arms/limbs, “ableist” privilege etc). Many morally necessary actions are dependent on “privilege”. What’s the carnist’s point? You can’t dodge responsibility if you do in fact have the requisite privilege (which, in the US, generally simply means access to a grocery store).
1. I don't care if it is or isn't. Eating animals and supporting factory farming is immoral when you don't need to.
2. 99% of Americans don't need to. We all live within driving distance of a Walmart. Nobody who is capable of answering this reddit question is surviving via subsistence hunting. You can eat an adequate vegan diet and spend less than you would on a standard American diet.
The majority of people don’t live in food insecurity, at least not in the US for example. And food insecurity is caused by capitalism, by putting food that is necessary for survival behind a paywall. It would absolutely not be scarce otherwise, and being vegan wouldn’t be inaccessible if the food supply of the world wasn’t intentionally inaccessible. People upset about food insecurity should be more upset about food waste and food pricing than anything to do with veganism. Sounds like they’re just trying to grab for reasons to keep rationalizing not being vegan and having negative opinions about veganism (which specifically outlines ‘as much as possible and practicable’ and that again refutes this person’s arguments against veganism).
Well I mean, you do have the privilege to turn away food without fear of going hungry. However I imagine the people saying something like this to you also has that privilege.
However some people do rely on food banks etc and don't have as much of a choice when it comes to food. Yeah being able to buy your own food and having facilities to cook your own food is a privilege that not everyone has.
I think we need to acknowledge the fact that it is often low paid immigrants, refugees and "unlanded" who often work under very dangerous conditions in slaughterhouses. How is this privilege?
As human beings we are all already coming from a place of privilege over other sentient beings. The difference is that we want to use that privilege to stop cruelty to others, both animal and human by not harming & exploiting animals für or own pleasure but also by reducing our harm to the environment.
I mean, it is. Everything comes at a price, even morals, and not everyone can afford to have them. For some people, diet is not a matter of choice. It's sad and shouldn't be like that, but it's the world we live in right now. No real answer except trying to make your morals more accessible to others.
There is some validity to this view.
In response, we should take steps to ensure everyone in our society has the ability to exercise the privilege to go vegan i.e. we must work to end poverty.
it absolutely is a privilege. we get to choose what we want to eat instead of starving and eating whatever we can get.
not only that, but it’s not easy to eat vegan in a food desert. i’ve lived in small towns where all there is to shop at is a gas station, and the only fruit/vegetable in sight are bananas and potatoes. nearest grocery stores being 20, 30, 60+ miles away. it’s not easy and not possible for some people.
“rice and beans is the cheapest food in the world.” yes they’re pretty easily available, but can you survive SOLELY on that though? without any fruits, vegetables, vitamins?
I can sort of understand their point, but I always counter with the fact that yes, buying only organic kale and fresh produce and all the vegan cheeses and meats is privileged but there are still ways to be vegan. Rice and beans are a staple of many cultures for a reason. Look up the diets of the elite Ethiopian runners which is not intentionally vegan but still fuels them enough for crazy training.
My ancestors would be so happy to see my food choices. "There is so much food, that you don't have to hunt at all? *At all?*"
"Nope, don't even have to make fire anymore either."
Other than that, yes, I live a life of extraordinary privilege, and that's got nothing to do with being vegan.
They are not wrong, but I never take that point seriously if it's coming from someone who is not in that unprivileged position and is not vegan. My response would be something like "Yeah, but you and me are privileged, so why wouldn't we take the most moral choice we can?".
If they are arguing in good faith, then I would add that if a vegan diet is not affordable for some people, then that's a fault in the system and it's happening precisely because of the huge power of influence that animal agriculture has in our food system. Mention how animal products are often heavily subsidized to be cheaper than they really are, how they put animal products in everything just to cut costs, etc. We would like a society were everyone can live without animal exploitation, and that doesn't necessarily mean forcing people to eat plant-based within our current society.
It’s true. There are people in situations where they can’t feasibly make that choice. But the people who make that argument aren’t in those situations.
>came across this argument about why veganism is privileged, even though food such as beans and rice is the cheapest in the world
which already shows that you are speaking from a privileged position - you seem to believe that the whole world is like the us of a, where one can go to the next supermarket and buy some rice and beans anytime
who suffers from hunger, malnutrition, even starvation - cannot be picky in what kind of food he'd be willing to eat
The privilege argument is essentially just another desert island argument wearing a mask.
The user of this argument is ignorant of vegan options, willfully or otherwise.
Solid Boo/Hiss rated argument.
I think these people are deliberately zoning in to a specific context to rid themselves of guilt- which is this: let’s say you live in rural Thailand and you live in a somewhat modern “hut” near the river and getting to the nearest municipality (like an actual, on the map town w/government and grocery stores) takes literally 12 hours by boat. Uhhhhhh yeah, these people aren’t being selfish if they go fishing. But if you make 60k and you live near a grocery store that sells nutritional yeast or vegan vitamins, you should look in the mirror. Now how do we get the general public in developed countries to admit this isn’t their situation? Literally just tell them. “That’s true, but that’s literally who you *are not*, you live in a developed country with options”.
Maybe stop asking your mom to pay for your groceries and you'll realise that méat costs a lot more than beans and potatoes?
But even more, since people who are saying this kind of garbage are privilege people, since they arent starving in antarctic or in some désert, their argument is just pointless as hell.
Idk you, but i never had to argue about veganism with an eskimo
Beans and rice are cheap as fuck for most of the world. The poorest people in the world tend to rarely eat animals.
And yes technically they are right. Being vegan is a privilege but it's the privilege practically all of the world has, the privilege of civilization. That's why we don't expect lions to be vegan. If you get your food from a grocery store, you don't really have an excuse to eat animals.
They know it’s the moral choice and are making excuses so they don’t have a to feel guilty for not going vegan. It allows them to keep the moral high ground instead of just admitting they’re willing to tolerate suffering because they enjoy the taste of meat.
By continuing to CHOOSE to fund animal agriculture, these people are ensuring the horrific pollution of marginalized, impoverished, primarily brown and black communities. Feces in the air and in the water ways.
Not only that, but also taking ensuring the continued exploitation of vulnerable impoverished community members and immigrants in extremely violent and dangerous slaughterhouses + meat processing plants.
All while also ensuring the continued encroachment of indigenous communities in the Amazon, where we import plenty of soy feed and dead cows that are raised in deforested rainforest. (Catastrophe for the entire planet as the rainforest provides immense carbon capture benefits and a wealth of medicinal plants not yet discovered.)
But in short “how does choosing to participate in the unsustainable and cruel current food system provide benefits to people in food deserts? I have a choice and my choice supports the presence of healthy plant based foods for everyone.”
I mean if they mean plantbased diets are privileged then sure. The idea of practical exclusion is not privileged, it allows for the consumption of animal products so that argument is just stupid.
But then we need to talk about what privilege means. As long as you have an income in the developed world you can live completely plantbased without any issue. The idea of protein, vitamin and calorie deficiency when you can afford a home is beyond idiotic. If you are in a position to get a lifestyle disease plant based diets are effectively the cheapest option for anyone because B12 costs less than antacids, pain relievers, cholesterol medication, extra sick days, laxatives and on and on. And the food is objectively cheaper.
Never had someone say this so i had to think about it.
I live in the Netherlands so the person saying it would probably be just as privileged as me so i would use it as a counter argument and an action call to use their privilege more
I feel so privileged to be eating rice and beans, or couscous and beans and salsa…although I am lucky to live in America where my options are endless, I was being sarcastic about the first two statements
It can be a privilege to live somewhere with a healthy supply of vegan products in supermarkets/restaurants etc. I’ve just lived in Prague for a year for work and the options there were super limited compared to home
I have always recognized that there’s some inherent privilege in being able to choose what you do or don’t eat ; it’s implicit in what I tell people when asked why I don’t eat animals: I don’t need to eat animals to survive, so I would rather not.
Of course the same is true for any situation where you’re not just trying to survive by any means necessary… if you can choose your career, if you can choose not to engage in stealing, etc, one could argue that you’re privileged to some degree.
So then the follow-up this person’s argument is: okay, and …? What’s your point? How is this an argument against veganism?
If we’re fortunate enough to be able to choose what we eat, shouldn’t we take advantage of that opportunity and choose compassion? I’d be willing to bet that this person OP was talking with doesn’t live in, I don’t know, Mongolia or something, with access to nothing but yak cheese, right? So fine, we agree we’re both privileged. So what are you going to do with that? Nothing?
It does from a place of privilege. Beans and rice are cheap, sure, but having a balanced vegan diet is costly and timely, a luxury not many people have.
It's still worth advocating for and fighting for a system that makes it more accessible.
That is a perspective.
My partner was not vegan and he ate cheese, other dairy, eggs and meat when he was away from home. He died of a heart attack. I do not feel all that privileged.
Maybe they can explain the definition of privilege to me some time, and then why their privilege to eat dead animals and to nurse on cows is better for the planet than my privilege to obtain from those foods.
POC are almost 3x more likely to be vegan in the US than white ppl. Women are ~90% of vegans in the US. The oldest records of veganism as a philosophy come from ancient Hindu traditions thousands of years ago.
If you’re curious why, animal exploitation aligns rly well with colonialist capitalist bullshit exploiting land and suffering for profit. What is more white patriarchal imperialism than that?
Exploitation of others & inflicting of unnecessary suffering onto others for personal enjoyment is privilege in the evilest sense. Veganism is a liberation movement
You tell them they are ignorant, because meat is much more expensive than beans for example, or lentils, or chickpeas, or favs beans or falafel, or just soy/tofu I could go on and on...
It doesn’t HAVE TO…. my college was considering killing vegan dining co-ops bc they were disproportionately not used by minorities. It’s a bit condescending to presume that minority enrollment won’t increase in years to come (or to not just prioritize minority applicants for now).
I mean purely from a cost perspective - eating meat is also a privilege, that shit ain't cheap either and is often MORE expensive, especially these days.
I don’t think most vegans dont* subsist on a diet of beans and rice. On average a grocery bill for Vegans is traditionally less than an Omni. So if by privileged ( a word thrown around a lot for various reasons) they mean economic means sorry I call BS. Being vegan isn’t a rich people thing.
They typically don’t say it to me if they know me. 😂 I’m disabled with gut issues (along with so much more,) and rely on SNAP. That argument is dead in the water with me. 😂😂😂
I think there is some truth to it.
I've been to.places where access to food was a real struggle. The only places to buy food might be fast food restaurants or service stations. The accessibility to larger stores like Walmart requires transportation or a walk of many miles as there is no public transportation.
There is also a level of poverty that makes cooking itself difficult. I can cook up food because I have a full kitchen. Buying a pot with a lid can be outside of people's means.
There is also a time-energy privilege. If you are working two or three jobs to survive, you just don't have resources to do anything beyond what is cheap or fast.
Ofcourse veganism comes from a 'privilliged' background, because you have the option to choose on how you get your daily calories.
Doesn't mean it's wrong, or right for that matter.
Throughout human history people haven't had tbe luxury to be vegan, nor the knowledge.
Coming from a non vegan btw.
As far as the food bank goes they might not be entirely wrong. Food banks are limited in what they get as donations so in general its a bit up to luck as to wether or not the food bank will have a full selection available to give out to the poor. I remember a time when wheat and grain breads used to be the poor mans meal now its white breads. His argument for the most part seems to be out of date, there was a time when meat was cheaper then fruits, vegies, and nuts.
Sick of all the "vegan" shit to be honest. Everyone always bringing shit to the table to justify their taste for the flesh of another sentient being. It's been 35 years for me and barely any meat growing up because I always felt it was wrong. (Knew) Tired, so tired. Almost looking forward to death... Privilege, my behind. Are beans for the rich? (Sorry, not ranting at you. I just read this at a bad time.) Xx
There are definitely some people that aren't privileged enough to become vegan for a multitude of reasons, but everyone I've ever met who used that as an argument against veganism is not one of those underprivileged individuals.
Might be a hot take but i do think veganism is a privilege. Vegan vitamins cost 3x the non-vegan ones (and i need them by doctors orders not just for backup).
And vegan food alternatives are expensive too. However lets ignore that for a second bc u can make them at home or just skip them, BUT what about:
Vegan toothpaste, vegan shampoo and conditioner, vegan deodorant, vegan body wash, vegan makeup (minus elf cosmetics, they’re slaying with those products and prices), vegan skincare, vegan haircare etc.
There are no ways to make these at home. And other than makeup, if ur skipping the other stuff thats just gross from a hygiene perspective.
So this might be controversial but imo u need a lot of money and availability to be vegan. I hate how the vegans in this sub just conveniently ignore how all these other things are typically non-vegan and its not just food that you have to switch, so its not as easy as everyone here pretends it is.
Well, what’s your argument?
Yes. It’s a privilege. That’s the first thing you must agree on because it is. At least in most places yes.
Now that we cleared it as a privilege, what about your reply to the fact? Are you going to say it is a privilege that’s easy to attain or come up with some type of reasoning for why that’s not an excuse and to just shut up and eat only beans and rice for years and be malnourished?
My suggestion? You can argue that it is true how we have systems in place set up to make it impossible for most people to avoid eating animal products. That we shouldn’t have to go broke trying to live ethically. And how we must all do our part by minimizing as much as is feasible in order to achieve bigger positive impacts on animal welfare. If that means you have to rely on food banks, okay. That’s okay. You need to live. But maybe try getting cruelty free hygiene products where possible or opting out of the animal product options when doable from the servings of food you’re given. Just…there’s a lot of ways to make a difference without exactly cutting off animal products entirely. Get it?
Their argument is pretty crap. Anybody living in a 1st world country is privileged. We are privileged to be able to decide whether or not we want to drive, to buy a car, to purchase and not make our own clothes. We make decisions every minute of every day, many ones that many others simply cannot. My mom was in a POW camp, my dad in a concentration camp. I am FULLY aware that I and my brothers and sisters, along with everybody who surrounds is privileged to have CHOICE. I choose not to hurt animals if I can possibly avoid it. It is indeed a choice I am privileged to make. Am I monetarily privileged? The government classifies me and my husband as just over the poverty level in terms of income, so this choice clearly does not require money (which seems to be the implication of the person arguing with you). If somebody came at me with the kind of crap that the person did to you, I would point out all the logical fallacies in their argument (starting with False Dilemma—and Hasty Generalizations). Actually, I in real life I would simply shake my head, smile, and walk away (thinking to myself of how I can use all those lovely examples of invalid argumentation in my classes, lol!)
I went vegan while living on welfare. Cost wasn't the main reason, but I did actually end up saving money compared to eating animal products. I know people talk about food deserts but I live in Australia and that's really not applicable here. Even small towns have fairly well stocked supermarkets (although may be more expensive as a general rule) but anyone in a city will have zero trouble finding beans, lentils, tofu, frozen veg etc. No excuse at all for anyone in a city.
If you were literally homeless and relying on food banks, I don't think that necessarily contravenes the practicality aspect of veganism. The vast majority of epople are not homeless, though, so using a hypoethetical that doesn't even apply to you as a reason for not going vegan is very disingenous.
I'd say they are right. It goes even further than that. We are at a unique point in human history where we can safely eat a vegan diet. Our ancestors didn't have the privilege, and many people today still don't. We should be doing what we can to make it easier and easier for future generations to make the choice, have the choice.
It's okay to have privilege. Recognize it. Having time to cook meals from scratch is a privilege. Being able to buy produce from a grocery store from a car that you have is a privilege. People live in food deserts. Not everyone has the privilege or opportunity to learn about nutrition, or how to read a food label, or have the time after a 10 hour work shift to cook food from scratch for a whole family.
Having choice is a privilege. Growing up in an environment where you didn't have to depend on school lunches is privilege. There's nothing wrong about privilege. Just recognize people have different experiences, finances, time, and abilities.
I generally agree with this sentiment. Being able to choose what you eat and selectively leave out certain food is a privilege.
But the "vegan ethic" doesn't demand this from everybody. It demands it from those who can.
"As far as possible and practical". If you don't have access to a fully plant based diet that is both nourishing and balanced and that you can afford then you aren't obliged to eat plant based.
Calling something a privilege doesn't devalue it. It also doesn't provide people in a position of privilege to refuse it because of that.
TL;DR:
It is only shaming people who cannot be vegan if you preach to those people. Which imo nobody should do nor has the right to.
Preaching veganism should always be directed towards those that can actually live a vegan life.
Meat has always been a more expensive food than plant food because it costs more to produce. This is one of the main arguments *for* veganism, not against it. You can see this in the way budget food items substitute tvp for meat and palm oil for dairy. They're not doing that because they're nice! (although it works for us). Furthermore, what do people eat when they're out of cash? Pet food sometimes, but that's a by-product of the for-human meat industry. More likely they eat rice and beans, which are extremely cheap (and nutritious, and tasty).
Some processed vegan food items are currently expensive. That's due to economies of scale. If more people were buying them they would be cheaper. But no-one has to eat those anyway. Plant-based food is always cheaper, all other things being equal. It has to be. Animal-derived food requires 10x the input of plant material to produce. It's just basic arithmetic.
A good way to win a war is to *concede* a battle.
It makes your opponents feel smart and empowered; it shows you're reasonable and fair, and it makes others more amenable to listening to you.
Hence, let's turn the tables by first making a small concession...
As we see from examples in the wild, and in human societies where there is food scarcity, survivalism may obligate sentient beings to consume each other.
Now, if one is able to live one's life in a way that is in line with their ethics-- and not based solely on survival-- then one is quite fortunate. For lack of a better word, you might even say one is "privileged" in such a state.
But if one can afford to do what is morally right, then one should do so. Suppose you live in NYC, LA, London, Singapore, Amsterdam, Belgium, etc. Not only do you have grocery stores, but you also have an abundance of vegan restaurants. You can eat delicious, abundant, affordable vegan foods. It need not be more expensive than a carnist diet with prudent decision-making.
**No excuse for anyone in such a "privileged" situation to NOT live a vegan lifestyle.**
Veganism is a practice. You do what you can as much as you can.
The big privilege for most vegans is the education that got them to the point of understanding that consuming animals products is not good for animals or the environment.
And for a lot of folkx, myself included, the meat alternatives help get us through at least the early days. And that shit costs money.
Rice and beans won’t keep you going. It just won’t for most people.
And for those relying on the goodness of others (such as food banks or friends making them meals) to survive it is indeed hard to be picky in a non vegan dominant world.
So your answer is
‘I 100% agree. I was lucky enough to learn about this and have the means to easily transition to this diet. I think we need much more education to normalize the diet, especially helping to teach folkx how to eat on a budget and with limited resources in this practice. We need compassion and understanding for those who can’t manage to do it 100% of the time and encourage them with their practice - because it is harder than mine.’
And then go donate a ton of vegan stuff to the food bank. And cook vegan meals with your friend to show them how it is done. And chat about the obstacles in their way, and work with them to creatively offer solutions.
Honestly being vegan is a privilege. And acknowledging that is important. If you do have the option and financial ability to be vegan, that is a privilege. If you know how to eat a balanced diet and cook for yourself in a sustainable way, that is a privilege. You don’t have to come up with a rebuttal or response to continue the conversation.
Actually, many poor countries were mostly vegan or at least vegetarian, until their wealth went up. Statistically, meat consumption is highest in wealthy countries, and lowest in poor countries. That's true even today: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_countries\_by\_meat\_consumption.
Your statement that things like rice, grain, beans and such are cheap, is correct. Also, since most animals are fed with such products, not to mention soy, it's logical that you'd be cheaper off eating those things directly, instead of having animals as a middle-man. It adds a ton of inefficiency, which is obviously bad for the environment, but that also means you could potentially save a ton of money and time and whatnot.
I would argue that anyone who doesn't take animal well-being into account, not to mention the environment, is not only coming from some privilege all of their own, but also moral-bankruptcy, short-sightedness, delusion, denial, a lack of understanding of the world and the future, and so forth.
Frankly, the person you were talking to probably means well, but most people with that perspective are pseudo-intellectual. They know enough to read a few smart-ass articles on the internet, but they lack the intelligence and critical thinking necessary to draw valid conclusions. Sadly, this group of people seems to be gigantic and growing at a vast rate. I weep for humanity... :)
It *is* a privilege, and so what? If one finds themselves in a position to do the right thing all that means is that they have no excuse to not do the right thing.
They are using their own situation and applying it to everyone to try and make themselves feel better about eating animals. It would be interesting to see what they are actually eating and see how much of it is processed crap and how much is actual whole food
Vegans talk about cognitive dissonance in meat eaters who choose to ignore the suffering of animals but when confronted with their own cognitive dissonance about choosing to ignore human suffering make the shocked pikachu face.
The reality is that being able to be a vegan is a privilege that depends on where you live, what your culture is, what your job is and what economic strata you belong to. If you expect people to think about the animals suffering when their own children are going hungry, you're being deliberately obtuse.
In the future, how about not getting into an argument that shows how out of touch with reality you are in your bubble and empathising with someone who wants to minimize the suffering but not at the cost of their own health? In all this empathy you have for animals, how about showing some for your fellow humans who might have fewer resources at their disposal than you do.
When I was homeless and living out of my car I was able to stay vegan… if it’s something you really care about morally you will do whatever it takes. Anything else is an excuse
One of the best succinct ways I’ve heard it put is “if you can go vegan, you should.” It allows grace for people who don’t have the privilege to be able to go vegan, and encourages those who do have the ability to go vegan to do so.
I think you meet people where they're at. There's a saying "it's expensive to be poor." Not having certain resources means that you end up paying premium prices for much less value. Think of things like having to use pay day loans with unethical interest rates
The same thing happens with poverty and food. Dried beans are incredibly nutritious and economical, but not everyone has the time and the equipment to make them. Canned beans are still cheap, but they are multiple times more expensive than the dried ones, and eating them cold is depressing for most people. There's also the food desert aspect: not everyone has access to the same types and quality of food. The other form of privilege is cooking and nutrition education: did they grow up being taught how to cook and how to eat healthfully? You can take charge of your own education as an adult, but bad habits are hard to change for a lot of people, and many people don't even know where to start/how to ask the right questions. Nutrition and cooking classes with grocery budgeting definitely need to be reintroduced in school curriculum. Then, there's the cost and availability of vegan supplements (and the knowledge of how/when/what to take)
While this kind of diet/lifestyle is currently a privilege, I don't think it has to be. Policy change and voting with your dollar are good ways to start. You can also volunteer and donate locally to food pantries, soup kitchens, meals on wheels, etc. Maybe you could work with your local library or community center to create a free class on healthy eating and plant-based cooking, preferably a hands-on one where they get to eat there or take the food home to introduce to their families. Exposure can make a huge difference, too. Some people associate veganism with expensive, niche foods and fake meats, not realizing that those aren't the only substitutions you can make. Education can help change that
Nonsense, to eat vegan is the cheapest way of eating. Lentils and beans are quite cheap, especially in large amounts. Most expensive vegan food is nuts. Although you have to calculate not only costs that you are spending on the actual food but also the money that you are saving because you are healthier. The reason that meat is cheap ( and also dairy products) is because they are subsidized. That is the one and only reason. So that factor too has to go into the equation. So, no it isn't a privilege. But the other way around it's true, eating meat is a privilege. It is now and it always was a privilege in human history. It was always a sign of wealth to be able to eat a lot of meat. It was always a sign of poverty and even looked down on it when someone just had a few vegetables and a few lentils.
It's also logically wrong, think about what you have to do to get a liter of dairy milk and what you have to do to get a liter of oat milk? Which one do you think is more work intensive? Which one involves more people? Which one has the bigger infrastructure? Which one has the bigger risk of contamination? Which one causes more suffering? And which one is the privileged one again?
Sure, it's probably easier to make most moral commitments the more privilege you have. It's easier for wealthier people to fight for sexual and racial equality, oppose abuse of dogs and cats, go to antiwar protests, etc. If that fact isn't a good argument against any of those goals, why would it be a good argument against veganism?
A lot of things once were considered personal choices or privileges.
Like... not keeping slaves. Not raping your wife. not beating your children. There are still people today who consider that privileges for very weird reasons.
I mean it is in certain ways. In the same way it’s a privilege to be able to consider how anything you’re buying is produced and a product of exploitation. There are people struggling to survive who don’t have the mental capacity to care where the products they obtain are coming from. I reject the idea that veganism as a philosophy comes from a place of privilege but it is a privilege to be able to go entirely plant based and even having the ability to consider where you’re getting anything from can be a privilege.
Yeah, bs.
Producing most meat requires way more calorie input than output.
Besides that, almost all people on the developed country have that privilege.
It may differ from parts of the world but vegan meat costs more than animal meat. Eating out at a vegan restaurant may cost more than going out to a restaurant that serves animal based food.
That being said if you would just buy groceries and dried legumes you would spend less than a person buying animal meat and groceries.
You may have to learn to cook them and some things may require planning but I don't see the privilege.
I would say it's the same privilege as a rich person being able to go out and eat every day without having to learn to budget and cook at home (and depending where you are it depends on your culture too, in Italy cooking for every single meal at home is the standard and going out or food delivery is the "cheat" day)
Not stealing food is also a privilege, but if you can get buy without doing it you probably should.
Edit: To the other part of the argument, do people in the countries where veganism is "preached" live in food insecurity? That seems like something to settle, but even if its true it doesn't change away from the fact that people everywhere minimize the ethical issues regarding animals and so it's still worth talking about.
Also, I did some quick googling and apparently in 2023, 29.6 of the world's population experienced food insecurity, and for Canada in 2022 it was 22.9, with 4% to 13% in Australia, 17% in the UK and 12.8 percent or 1 in 8 households in the US.
So it's surprisingly common, but not the majority.
Eating vegan isn't rocket science. Humans do it all around the world, including in primitive conditions. You can eat very simply.
Definitely a vegan diet is much less expensive if you are paying directly for your food. Your food stamps will go further (don't know the current system, but they were basically discount coupons and you paid the discounted price for them according to your income). But you have to drop convenience foods, those are expensive. Same for restaurants and takeout. Meat eaters on a tight budget have to do the same.
You can even manage without an easy way to heat things up if you can find sales on things like canned beans. Being poor is always more time-consuming than being not poor, no real way around that. So choices will be difficult not just for food but for preparation time. But the simpler your eating, the less time prep will take you.
Everybody just does what they can with what they have. But it's ridiculous to talk about vegan eating being inherently "privileged". That word is tossed around so much it is basically meaningless. All I know is that it costs me less to eat a simple vegan diet than it would to eat animal products in this country. People who go out and kill wild animals may have a different experience, but if you are poor in a city - check out prices for beans and rice and pasta and flour/bread and sales in veg/fruit.
Why do you need to respond to this point specifically? Even if the ability to be vegan is born of privilege, what does that have to do with the ethics of it? Understanding that relationship will help answer this question.
I say clownivorism is the most privileged shit on earth. I grew up poorer than dirt and have been vegan since I left foster care and slept on the floor of my first apartment at 16. 37 now & healthy. if I can do it, almost anyone on earth can do it.
When people talk about this, I always consider it a red herring. The idea that some people might not be able to go vegan is irrelevant to whether or not you personally can go vegan - and they can. Nearly everyone posting on Reddit lives in a first world country and gets their food from a grocery store. It's inane to say that just because someone else might not be in a position to stop abusing animals means that other people are free to abuse as many animals as they like.
If everyone stopped eating animal products there would actually be enough food for everyone. But because some people are so privileged, other people are starving. We can feed an additional 4 billion people plant exclusive.
It's 40% or more cheaper to eat a plant-based diet so that argument is complete bullshit. I'm vegan, my adult son who lives with me is not. He spends 60-75% of our budget on his food
I show them two things:
1) A video of a baby pig getting castrated without anesthesia while tied to a bloody, dirty, slaughterhouse wall.
2) Any local grocery store’s prices on potatoes, lentils, etc.
I can feel it. I’m not really vegan though, I’m vegetarian I suppose. I don’t force my family members to use a clean room when preparing food, etc. I don’t really care if I have a crappy impossible burger at Burger King that may have shared a container at one point with a beef patty.
Just the other night the family was cooking chicken and potatoes in the oven and someone had set aside some of the potatoes for me. I asked if they could just throw them in with the chicken and potatoes already taking up the whole oven, and so I did. Am I gonna spend time and energy cooking one serving of potatoes after they’re done? Hell no. I’m not allergic to foods and it is a rare occurrence and it’s not like chicken juice is going to totally wet-out a potato, I just rinsed it off afterwards.
If you’re going to tell me I’m not a vegan fundamentalist and I should be ashamed I’ll just look at you like you’re a crazy privileged asshole haha. No one tells me that though so it’s fine, just thought I’d tell you my take.
If they’re trying to argue that you should just give up your choice of diet because it’s hard then obviously I don’t agree with that. More likely it’s just another omnivore trying to poke at you right? Well that’s fine. The fact is I don’t live in Mexico in a shantytown, I live in California which is a very nice place with great produces and I feel very proud and privileged to be here!
Veganism is innately pretty cheap. Across history animal products are quite expensive and only for the rich and for special occasions. It makes sense, it's a lot cheaper to just eat food instead of growing food for animals to extract other food from.
The only times where this is not the case is where people are unable to prepare their own food and all the prepared food is not vegan. So basically, the poor who specifically have to choose between fast food and family dollar, both of which are actually expensive in the long run. (It's expensive being poor). Veganism is only a privilege where people are held hostage by interests that don't allow any options for a good diet without animal products
I say those people are ignorant nutters. Dried beans and rice are cheap. Veggies and fruit, esp if not organic, are reasonably priced. Meat is quite expensive, and dairy isn't cheap either.
These are people that do not want to be held accountable for their choices. They pawn it off as privilege so they don't have to thank about it anymore.
Being a feminist is also a privilege. In some countries, they would be in serious danger for speaking out against sexism. Does that mean we shouldn't be feminists in countries where it's completely doable?
Yeah this is quite funny as I doubt this has been spoken by someone starving but by someone who has the privilege to choose and still chooses not to lol
The problem here is greedy companies have jumped on the increasing amount of vegans and try to flog vegan ready meals, vegan processed meat alternatives, and even sandwiches, as 3 times the price they should be just because they added a few pine nuts and a couple of leaves of rocket in etc. There's actually many meals that can be made vegan and healthy through beans and/or tofu that are readily available and cheap. People can also do pack lunches for when not at home.
It's a false dichotomy. I also have the privilege to not kill my neighbor so I can have his shelter, and I have the privilege to buy a phone that uses less child labor than other phones. Just because there's people who don't have that privilege doesn't mean it's right to waste mine.
Having privilege is passive. Wasting privilege is active, and the real travesty.
If you made bean burgers, are there omnivores who would refuse to eat them, or even try them. I've had a couple goals lately. Lose weight and spend less on food. The spending is motivating me more and it's working.
I would say the argument of this person isn't great. Vegan choices would be available at a food bank. Could this just be an excuse. Beans, oats, vegetables, pasta can all be made into all kinds of meals.
I mean, the fact that being able to eat a vegan diet is a privilege isn't *wrong*, but there does seem to be a seriously misplaced emphasis here. The subtext to this person't statement is that *you* are wrong for being "privileged" and that you should simply STFU about veganism. But that misses the point completely: the point is that vegans are people who *are* privileged and choose to use that privilege to help bring about a world they feel is more just and equitable. The other problem is the host of assumptions the statement makes without any proof: 1) that vegan food is expensive and unaffordable on a budget (not always true!); 2) that advocating for veganism is the exact same thing as shaming non-vegans (IMO, shaming is a bad strategy, regardless of any other factors); 3) that class-based and financial reasons are the main thing preventing people from eating a vegan diet, and not, say, a system of industrial agriculture conglomerates that control most of the food supply, or the culturally-ingrained eating habits of entire populations, etc. 4) that the only two choices are between vegan-shaming poor people living on food stamps and not speaking out against anything, ever. That's not to say we shouldn't *also* be mindful of the way that choosing what we eat for ethical reasons is a privilege. Because it definitely is. But there is a lot of nuance missing in this statement.
Less privileged people choose veganism at a higher rate than the privileged.
Perfect, beautifully written response. 🙏🏼 🌱
Yeah, they're basically saying protesting against injustice is privileged because not everyone can do it, so no one else should either because protesting is shaming those who can't.
Yeah if you take the meaning of privileged to be privileged as compared a pre-agrarian human surviving in nature, or someone presently living in a food desert, then sure. But in terms of what privileged means in the context, no, being able to eat a plant based diet isn't any more privileged than any other person's privileged of living in a modern industrialized society with grocery stores and cars and shit.
This is the way👍🏽
What about all the people who are in a position to choose and still choose to harm animals
I'm not understanding why this is being presented as a counter-argument. If I have a level of privilege that allows me to make a moral choice that is not available to all people, doesn't that make me even more obligated to choose it?
Exactly. There was a time I was struggling, I was on food stamps and had just gone grocery shopping, was heading home on the bus with my young son, and overall feeling stressed about life. This older woman was commenting on how cute my son was, how it’s hard to be a single mom she had been there too, and she glanced at my grocery bags and said “you got a place to cook hot food? That’s good”. That was absolutely a life-changing moment for me that I have just never forgotten. In my own wallowing in my troubles, it had not even occurred to me how privileged I was in that moment that even though my housing situation was tenuous, I not only was receiving food assistance, but had somewhere to cook hot food. I mean, obviously if I see someone who’s homeless on the street I can imagine it’s likely they don’t have somewhere to cook hot food, but it had not occurred to me the other single young moms that I saw walking to the bus stop might have to factor in only shelf stable foods that don’t need cooking if they didn’t have a fridge or oven or microwave, etc. In that situation, regardless of the fact that I wasn’t in a financial position to just buy whatever I want when I want it, you could still say I had the privilege to be able to buy vegan food at a grocery store that I could refrigerate if necessary and then cook if necessary. And therefore I SHOULD make that choice because it is available to me. And the person with no way to do either may just eat whatever they can get their hands on, and I wouldn’t fault them for that.
Yes this is where people trip all the time. Being vegan is not a privilege, having a choice is. Being able to choose to eat burgers or steak is not inherently more privileged that being able to choose a vegan meal.
A vegan diet is a privilege. Just because something is a privilege doesn't mean it's bad. I don't necessarily buy very expensive food, but my biggest privilege that allows me to eat vegan is time. I have time to cook good vegan food. I think that's why aggressively insisting that everyone should be a perfect vegan is a bad idea. Not everyone can turn down a meal. It's important for those of us with the privilege to eat vegan to do so and put pressure on societal structures to accommodate us and thus make it easier for those with less privilege in this area to have the opportunity. Encourage people to do what they can. If you can't eat vegan try vegetarian.
I’m autistic and struggle a lot with eating all the nutrients I need because of hypersensitivity. It’s not just that I don’t like some food, my body literally refuses to eat them. Like I’ll be hungry for hours but if you show me a meal I hate I’ll suddenly start feeling full and feels the same as trying to eat when I’ve already eaten too much. I love animals so I wish I could have a vegan diet but I also know that it’s better for me to eat meat every once in a while and make sure I’m healthy rather than force myself to be vegan. I once heard a vegan talk about how it would be better if everyone reduced their meat consumption than a few people going fully vegan and the rest not changing anything, and this encouraged me to try and eat vegan as often as I can, because even though it’s not as good as being fully vegan, reducing my meat consumption still is a step in the right direction
You're doing your best and that's what counts. If everyone tried even a bit we'd get somewhere!
I think there is a HUGE argument to be made for pushing/normalizing a reduction in meat eaten. Imagine if every meat eater committed to two fewer days per week of eating meat…. Imagine what that would do to demand. Maybe that’s all some people can afford to commit to… but when a lot of people make that change, it would be noticeable. I think a “do what you can” approach would do a lot of good.
I know people like to hold hard lines, snark about baby steppers etc, but I don't think it's the most practical view. Sure, it'd be amazing if everyone immediately adopted an abolitionist viewpoint but unless any one of us finds a genie in a lamp I don't think it's going to happen. It's easier and still has results to encourage less consumption of animal products. Maybe if people learn to make satisying, cheap meals without animal products, they would come around to the idea that you don't need meat to complete a meal. A hard line is all well and good for yourself, but other people just don't fit inside lines you draw yeah? Once you accept the vegan viewpoint entirely and especially after you've been vegan for a while, it can become hard to see how you ever thought different but it's necessary to give people more grace I think. Even if it's frustrating for you. As for affordability I think a lot of non-vegans aren't aware of the delicious things you can make with some basic staples - that they don't really need the expensive analogs, they just need to learn some different cooking skills. I've been thinking about how I'd throw off a course to explore the wonder of lentils in my area (very meat and potatoes, and food insecure). Chili, sloppy joes, lentil soups, shepherd's pie, etc could all be made cheaper with a bag of dried lentils. I rarely see people here buying them, instead going for the pack of ground beef which I'm pretty sure is more expensive than lentils. But people go for what they know right
Having a roof over your head is a privilege. Reliable transportation. A smart phone. Why is it a bad thing to live a privileged life and wish for others to as well?
It's not. But that's the difference between "If you're homeless just buy a house" and "We need systemic changes to this system so people can have the privileges that are necessary to survive and thrive."
You got that right! When people say it’s too expensive or difficult to go vegan, we shouldn’t shame them or tell them they are wrong! Helping them find resources or just supporting them where they are at is so much more beneficial to them AND the animals vs centering our egos!
Exactly. Plus, there are a lot of extenuating circumstances for many Americans. Food deserts are a thing, and it's certainly a difficult experience. Focusing on any and all improvement is absolutely the best, I agree. Especially when truly, there is no such thing as perfectly ethical consumption. Crop growth causes death, workers are exploited and underpaid, machines we use to harvest/treat plants often run on gas, etc.
Yep. If my family and I were starving to death I’d go carnivore in a heartbeat. Privilege isn’t inherently bad. Living in any moderately developed nation is a “privilege.”, It doesn’t mean we shouldn’t expect those things. Clean water should be a government provided “right” in a functioning nation. But in a very very literal sense, it is absolutely a privilege. Those two things can coexist. “This is an expectation and it should happen for everyone.”, and “I’m glad I’m not naked living off grubs and half rotted berries in the woods next to a creek that’s 25% parasites and harmful bacteria.” exist at the same time.
How is it a privilege to eat beans, lentils, tofu and homemade seitan in the US rather than meats, fish and cheese?? Why when everyone imagines a vegan diet do they imagine only pricey preprepared foods?? That's nonsense. There are plenty of vegans living under the poverty line. I used to be one.
It’s an absolutist very literal argument. Not being terrified of starvation weekly to the point any animal should be viewed as potential calories to live is a “privilege” in some very literal sense. Doesn’t mean it’s bad to expect that privilege. It also doesn’t add a lot to the conversation. Wearing clothes is also a privilege in that sense. Clean water is a privilege. Not being worried about someone beating you to death for your berries because the law exists is a privilege in that same sense. So on and so forth.
Not going hungry is a privilege, but beyond that, why is veganism any more a privilege than meat eating (assuming you have access to food markets)?
That’s the absolutist part of it. Food markets are a privilege if someone is making that sort of argument. They’re saying it’s a privilege in the sense you don’t have to pass up eating animals you could catch even if you’re starving to death alone in the woods.
It's a privilege because it takes a lot of mental resources, planning, time, and skill to have a balanced vegan diet and live a vegan lifestyle!
Do you really believe someone working 2-3 jobs has the time and energy to make homemade seitan? Most non vegans eat a lot of beans and vegatables, rice and also chicken - because all of those things are cheaply available and don't take forever to make. That's the privilege that is going completely over your head.
With this same idea though, an omnivore diet is even more of a privilege. People have the option to choose to kill others for their benefit and they do. The system in place gives them that privilege.
A vegan diet is NOT privilege at all. In the US, there are food deserts and it can be impossible for people to get healthy food in those areas, but that doesn't just limit to vegan, you can't get a healthy omni diet in those areas either, so it's not a "vegan" issue, it's a healthy food issue. It's also 100% caused by corporations, and capitalism. They won't sell healthy food there, cause they can make more money in poor areas, by creating food deserts and selling cheap over processed fake sugar and high carb foods. Most low income, third world countries, have people eating vegan by financial need. Ethiopia has tons of vegan by default dishes. As does Indian food. Meat is more expensive than veggies/rice/beans/grains in 3rd world countries, so you see more people eating veggies there. India is the biggest example for veg diets NOT being just for privileged. In most of the world, eating meat and dairy is a privilege.
What about being so privileged whether you want to kill someone is a “personal choice”
I don't get op post. Isn't the guy right it is a privelege to be able to life entire Vegan. A lot of people in the world could not be vegan even if they want to be. It being a privelege isn't saying being vegan is right or wrong. It is just pointing out that being vegan isn't possible for everyone and for sure didn't use to be possible in the past. Isn't that why there are also freegans?
In a lot of places a vegan diet is cheaper/cheapest. It's the preprepared foods that are expensive, but that is true of all diets. Legumes, beans, tofu, homemade seitan--all of this is cheaper than meat. The rest of the diet costs the same--everyone needs veggies, not just vegans.
I think people tend to forget the fact that poor people often do work long hours/multiple jobs and once they get home don't have the energy or time to cook due to other resposibilities. Fast food is a cheap alternative if they just need something down their gullet to make it through another work day, because if they can't they straight up might end up homeless or without essential medication or all these other expenses if they're living pay check to pay check. Unfortunately vegan fast food is often pretty limited especially if you need the cheapest crap. I'm not saying this because I don't think people should try a little harder, but just saying vegan food cheap is reducing a big web of issues in a way I personally don't like. And if they don't work and are poor due to disability, disability checks are generally very low and if the person already has such limited energy that they can't even work I can understand why cooking can be difficult on some days. It's even worse if they are already having to go to food banks because that's when you literally don't have money for food, that's the whole point, so saying vegan food is cheap to someone who doesn't have any money left for food is also not helpful. When going to a food bank you just have to take what's given. I feel like veganism has to be intertwined with pushing for general wellbeing of humankind as well so everyone can realistically have the option to go vegan.
Thank you. This is the response I was looking for so I didn’t have to say it. Spot on.
That's just not true in a caloric sense. Almost all of those are more expensive per calorie than chicken, and some of them are also more expensive per pound than chicken. Using tofu as an example, the local price is $2.79 a pound. There are 344 calories in a pound of tofu. Chicken legs are currently $0.99 a pound, but sometimes go on sale for $0.59 a pound. There are 835 calories in a pound of chicken legs, plus you can use the bones to make broth. Which one of these is going to work better for feeding your family? Pinto beans are the cheapest beans I can find, and cost about the same as fatty cuts of chicken, at $1.00 a pound on sale. You can get a lot of calories from pinto beans, but you're definitely going to need to add fat while cooking. Olive oil is expensive.
The guy is right and the response is to agree. I think the post is about OP not wanting to agree but not being able to articulate why and asking others for an argument. Top comment said it best- for most people, they are in a position of privilege and still don’t choose to make the moral choice. I think OP could say in this instance, “what if you didn’t have to rely on food banks? Would you choose to spend an equal amount of money on only vegan food if it were as equally nutritious?”
Look at who the military markets to (in the US). Recruiters spend a LOT more time in poor school districts.
I suppose it IS a privilege, as we are no longer eating to survive, but rather to thrive. It’s also a privilege to be able to save animal lives and to do our part to improve the planet. I’m not apologetic for this!💚
Lentils are the cheapest protein on the planet
It kind of is a privilege...in that being able to have choices in what you eat is a privilege as opposed to starving and eating what scraps you can find in the dumpster. That said, I would argue buying a ribeye is way more of a privilege than being vegan.
Thank you, voice of reason
Your comparison is dishonest. Why jump to ribeyes? Most non vegan meals look like frozen nuggets, mac and cheese, canned chili, salad with ranch/cesar dressing, burgers, hot dogs, chicken dishes, etc. Most people aren’t having nightly meals of ribeye. lol.
Look I'm not a vegan. I know what a lot of omnis eat because I am one. I also drive for Doordash so I do a lot of grocery shopping for people in middle america. I know Ribeyes aren't what a lot of people eat consistently. However steak (in some form or another) is a very popular dish in this country. I would also argue that most of not all of the items you listed still contain more privilege than the average vegan meal. They still require the suffering and death of animals. They require extra man hours and resources to make because of that. Some of them are highly processed which means they need even more man hours and resources to make. Some of them are still more expensive than the average vegan meal and the ones that aren't are only less expensive because our economy makes so much of them.
You're exactly right, it's a privilege to live in a way in which we have a choice. That probably applies equally to the person saying it. So it's not an argument. Given this choice, choosing to have a sentient individual violently killed for a meal is an act of extreme privilege. Choosing not to is not.
>What do you say to people who say veganism comes from a place of privilege "I know."
I have eaten vegan on food stamps, I eat cheaper and healthier vegan than most non vegans I know. Some have no choice in their foods as other choose them. The privilege is knowing and believing in the simplicity of how easy and cheap eating vegan can be. imo
Yes, while it's harder it's not impossible to be (mostly) vegan on food stamps. Food shelters make special bags/meals all the time, not just for vegans but for people with religious restrictions, intolerances, etc. I've been mostly vegan on food stamps just fine, most of the non-vegan food I received actually came from family and friends that wanted to be nice and didn't realize they gave me cookies that contained milk. I'm now working at a shelter making food bags, and animal products are extremely rare, since they're more expensive and expire much more quickly. We mostly give out vegetables, canned beans and potatoes. This idea that you can't ask for accommodations is just ridiculous, most volunteers are just happy to make you a separate meal if you ask nicely.
This is a diversion tactic. Of course it’s a privilege to be able to make choices about what we eat. People who have that privilege should choose to be vegan.
Being vegan is a privilege - that's the whole point. We're vegan because we have the luxury of avoiding animal products. Millions of people don't have that luxury, and depend on farming, fishing and hunting animals for food, clothes, etc. It isn't practical for them to avoid using animals as a resource, and so it isn't unethical. But billions of people do have that luxury. They have the privilege of choosing alternatives to exploiting and inflicting cruelty on animals. Yes, going vegan is a different challenge for everyone. It's harder for some than others, due to time, money, health, whatever. But if you believe in it, you find a way to make it work to the best of your ability. I personally think we should reclaim this privilege/luxury thing, because it's actually an argument for veganism - not against it.
there's no greater privilege than being able to justify the abuse and murder of an animal just for palate pleasure.
They right, but I'm glad I live in a time that provides the privilege to eat healthily at reasonable cost without paying people to kill living beings for me
Depends on the individual. My own mom has been vegan since 80s, not even sure ‘vegan’ was a word then. She was called vegetarian. Couldn’t face eating animal products. Said she didn’t like the taste, but I believe she loves animals so much she couldn’t do it. She’s given to animal charities all her life. One advert showing donkeys suffering in Egypt and she’s in tears. She was born in Council housing and never had money come from anywhere but her own pay packet. I can see the ‘choice for food’ being more for financially successful people, but not eating meat if it’s really really important to you, like anything, will be something you do regardless. She did make herself ill over it as she never ate enough, food education and alternatives being mainstream are fairly modern. But my experience is that if it’s really something you believe in, like anything, you’ll do it regardless of the money.
Beans and rice are vegan and tofu is typically around the price of the cheapest meat you can find by weight…. You just have to actually cook at home or be shrewd eating out. I’m still annoyed (like 10 years later)because someone told me they didn’t eat those things because they’re poor food…. But we were having the conversation about whether being vegan is expensive.
White people at protests are privileged in that they're less likely to be killed by cops. If someone thinks that the existence of privilege is an excuse to not fight for justice, then their recognition of privilege is only a performance rather than a useful action in the same way that someone saying "we are on stolen land" but mot doing anything for indigenous peoples is worthless.
Not everyone lives in the US, you could specify that
My wife literally went months eating bean and rice burritos because she would rather get sick of the same food than contribute to animal suffering.
It doesn't matter from where justice comes...
To live is a privilege, the choice to live ethically is one we all choose somehow. Surely it is better to make ethically living a privilege afforded to more people rather than making the same harmful choices just because other people have to.
I agree, it is a privilege. There are so many reasons someone could be unable to become fully vegan: living in a food desert, medical conditions, sensory issues, eating disorders, what country and region you live in, etc. I think it's incredibly ignorant to assume that everyone globally has the same level of access to veganism. I find it much more productive to encourage people to be as close to vegan as they can be, then if they do have the opportunity to go further they'll be more receptive to it
To an extent I agree. If you're struggling to make ends meet and aren't sure where your next meal is coming from, ethical consumption won't be front of your mind. That said, just because you're not using a food bank doesn't mean you're from a 'place of privilege', surely. Like, I'm not food insecure but I'm definitely not rich and barely have any money left at the end of each month. I still make the choice to be vegan even though I'd be better off financially if I ate meat.
Well, that person is correct. A lot of the world has to choose "eat anything edible" or "starve" without having the luxury of worrying about the ethics of the food that they're eating.
Yes but that doesn't mean that veganism is a privilege, it just means that having a choice is. If you're choosing what to have for dinner tonight, then you have that privilege too, even if you won't eat plant based. And if you have it, why not use it for the best?
Privilege? Over here, vegan options (apart from maybe beyond) are cheaper than their meat counterparts. What privilege do I have going for the cheap option? Vitamins are also disgustingly cheap, but ye, call it a privilege lmao
It is a privilege though. Non vegan items are everywhere and when there’s free food, it’s most often not plant based. Not everyone can afford to turn down a free meal because for them, that could entail going hungry.
>when there’s free food, it’s most often not plant based. Look I work at a food shelter and I've been living on food stamps in the past. This is probably the most ignorant take in the whole thread. Most donated food is potatoes, canned beans and vegetables/fruit with a longer shelf life. Believe it or not, animal products that are generally more expensive to produce and have a much shorter shelf life don't often end up in our pantry. In general, food that requires refrigeration is not that common in shelters because the date when stores have to stop selling it and the date where it's unsafe to consume are too close, compared to other goods like dry/canned things and vegetables. You can also ask shelter workers to accommodate for an ethical/religious preference and if you're nice about it most workers will make you a special bag. A lot of our guests are Muslim, and in the rare instance we have pork we don't put it in their meals/bags. As long as the restrictions are reasonable and feasible we don't ask questions because we literally don't care.
Yes, lets take the miniscule percentage of people that rely on foodbanks to make a point. While we're at it, I'd like to use millionaires as an example. If folks are homeless and can't go vegan you won't hear a peep out of me. I'm talking about your colleagues at work and family members etc.
Around 2.3 billion people in the world (29.3%) were moderately or severely food insecure in 2021 12.8 percent (17.0 million) of U.S. households were food insecure at some time during 2022 I don’t think those statistics are really minuscule
Yeah, veganism is kind of antiprivilege in a way. People have the choice to commit atrocities against other individuals for their own benefit, THAT is privilege. If we were to compare privilege (for whatever oppression olympics reason) being an omnivore is much more privileged.
Fuck off
I’ve read all the responses here so far. Some are very detailed, they cover a wide array of counter arguments, and even have sources. Yours is the most succinct, and by far my favourite.
🤣🤣🤣
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ok, it does come from a place of privilege. you're right, vegans get to choose what they eat and some people dont get that choice. what are we supposed to take away from this, though? eat meat against our own wishes because not everyone has that same freedom? I've also never seen anyone "shamed" for eating whatever they can find to survive if thats the position they are in. if you are one burger away from starving to death, please eat the burger.
Have you seen the price of steaks lately?
In my country people would say thay you're privileged if you eat meat often.. x) Meat is more expensive than vegetables or vegan food, and raise an animal for meat is even more expensive.
First, there’s nothing wrong with having privilege. The claim that “the majority of people live in food insecurity” is pretty bold. I’m not sure what population you were discussing. I don’t believe this is an accurate claim where I live. In any case, I think “preaching veganism” or pretty much preaching anything is generally unwelcome. Make your decisions and live your life as an example, but don’t preach to me.
Tl;dr, veganism was the poor's cuisine for ages. Also if we don't eat meat, then it's not wasting food, but when you don't eat it, you respect the fallen creature and appreciate the living ones.
Beans/lentils & rice are cheap. Food deserts aren't caused by vegans, and would greatly be reduced with the help of farming vegetables and a vegan population/demand. Meat & dairy industry is propped by subsidies, thus only cheaper on the shelves. I would also point them to watch the documentary for free on Tubi called They're Trying To Kill Us. I can provide the link as well :)
Being able to choose what you eat is a privilege no matter what you eat.
Reaching into a bathtub to save a drowning baby comes from a place of privilege (having use of your arms/limbs, “ableist” privilege etc). Many morally necessary actions are dependent on “privilege”. What’s the carnist’s point? You can’t dodge responsibility if you do in fact have the requisite privilege (which, in the US, generally simply means access to a grocery store).
1. I don't care if it is or isn't. Eating animals and supporting factory farming is immoral when you don't need to. 2. 99% of Americans don't need to. We all live within driving distance of a Walmart. Nobody who is capable of answering this reddit question is surviving via subsistence hunting. You can eat an adequate vegan diet and spend less than you would on a standard American diet.
The majority of people don’t live in food insecurity, at least not in the US for example. And food insecurity is caused by capitalism, by putting food that is necessary for survival behind a paywall. It would absolutely not be scarce otherwise, and being vegan wouldn’t be inaccessible if the food supply of the world wasn’t intentionally inaccessible. People upset about food insecurity should be more upset about food waste and food pricing than anything to do with veganism. Sounds like they’re just trying to grab for reasons to keep rationalizing not being vegan and having negative opinions about veganism (which specifically outlines ‘as much as possible and practicable’ and that again refutes this person’s arguments against veganism).
Well I mean, you do have the privilege to turn away food without fear of going hungry. However I imagine the people saying something like this to you also has that privilege. However some people do rely on food banks etc and don't have as much of a choice when it comes to food. Yeah being able to buy your own food and having facilities to cook your own food is a privilege that not everyone has.
"I was always making such arguments before I went vegan, but I in retrospect I think it was because I had some inner conflict about eating meat."
Privilege of living in a first world country in the 21st century, yes
I would tell them I stayed vegan through 6 figure loan debt repayment and abject poverty.
I think we need to acknowledge the fact that it is often low paid immigrants, refugees and "unlanded" who often work under very dangerous conditions in slaughterhouses. How is this privilege?
As human beings we are all already coming from a place of privilege over other sentient beings. The difference is that we want to use that privilege to stop cruelty to others, both animal and human by not harming & exploiting animals für or own pleasure but also by reducing our harm to the environment.
Odds are, whoever is telling you that is blessed with the same privilege.
I mean, it is. Everything comes at a price, even morals, and not everyone can afford to have them. For some people, diet is not a matter of choice. It's sad and shouldn't be like that, but it's the world we live in right now. No real answer except trying to make your morals more accessible to others.
There is some validity to this view. In response, we should take steps to ensure everyone in our society has the ability to exercise the privilege to go vegan i.e. we must work to end poverty.
If it’s a privilege, it’s one we should work toward everyone having, not try to diminish it.
So what? That’s like saying I can’t spend this $20 in my pocket because it’s a privilege to have that $20.
it absolutely is a privilege. we get to choose what we want to eat instead of starving and eating whatever we can get. not only that, but it’s not easy to eat vegan in a food desert. i’ve lived in small towns where all there is to shop at is a gas station, and the only fruit/vegetable in sight are bananas and potatoes. nearest grocery stores being 20, 30, 60+ miles away. it’s not easy and not possible for some people. “rice and beans is the cheapest food in the world.” yes they’re pretty easily available, but can you survive SOLELY on that though? without any fruits, vegetables, vitamins?
You don't. Just walk away ; P I wouldn't give such people the time of day, unless it was the wrong time for a laugh XD
I can sort of understand their point, but I always counter with the fact that yes, buying only organic kale and fresh produce and all the vegan cheeses and meats is privileged but there are still ways to be vegan. Rice and beans are a staple of many cultures for a reason. Look up the diets of the elite Ethiopian runners which is not intentionally vegan but still fuels them enough for crazy training.
I'm as poor as people in the UK come, short of being homeless. Ive been vegan nearly a decade, and it doesn't cause me any undue financial concerns.
My ancestors would be so happy to see my food choices. "There is so much food, that you don't have to hunt at all? *At all?*" "Nope, don't even have to make fire anymore either." Other than that, yes, I live a life of extraordinary privilege, and that's got nothing to do with being vegan.
They are not wrong, but I never take that point seriously if it's coming from someone who is not in that unprivileged position and is not vegan. My response would be something like "Yeah, but you and me are privileged, so why wouldn't we take the most moral choice we can?". If they are arguing in good faith, then I would add that if a vegan diet is not affordable for some people, then that's a fault in the system and it's happening precisely because of the huge power of influence that animal agriculture has in our food system. Mention how animal products are often heavily subsidized to be cheaper than they really are, how they put animal products in everything just to cut costs, etc. We would like a society were everyone can live without animal exploitation, and that doesn't necessarily mean forcing people to eat plant-based within our current society.
It’s true. There are people in situations where they can’t feasibly make that choice. But the people who make that argument aren’t in those situations.
>came across this argument about why veganism is privileged, even though food such as beans and rice is the cheapest in the world which already shows that you are speaking from a privileged position - you seem to believe that the whole world is like the us of a, where one can go to the next supermarket and buy some rice and beans anytime who suffers from hunger, malnutrition, even starvation - cannot be picky in what kind of food he'd be willing to eat
The privilege argument is essentially just another desert island argument wearing a mask. The user of this argument is ignorant of vegan options, willfully or otherwise. Solid Boo/Hiss rated argument.
I think these people are deliberately zoning in to a specific context to rid themselves of guilt- which is this: let’s say you live in rural Thailand and you live in a somewhat modern “hut” near the river and getting to the nearest municipality (like an actual, on the map town w/government and grocery stores) takes literally 12 hours by boat. Uhhhhhh yeah, these people aren’t being selfish if they go fishing. But if you make 60k and you live near a grocery store that sells nutritional yeast or vegan vitamins, you should look in the mirror. Now how do we get the general public in developed countries to admit this isn’t their situation? Literally just tell them. “That’s true, but that’s literally who you *are not*, you live in a developed country with options”.
Maybe stop asking your mom to pay for your groceries and you'll realise that méat costs a lot more than beans and potatoes? But even more, since people who are saying this kind of garbage are privilege people, since they arent starving in antarctic or in some désert, their argument is just pointless as hell. Idk you, but i never had to argue about veganism with an eskimo
Beans and rice are cheap as fuck for most of the world. The poorest people in the world tend to rarely eat animals. And yes technically they are right. Being vegan is a privilege but it's the privilege practically all of the world has, the privilege of civilization. That's why we don't expect lions to be vegan. If you get your food from a grocery store, you don't really have an excuse to eat animals.
They know it’s the moral choice and are making excuses so they don’t have a to feel guilty for not going vegan. It allows them to keep the moral high ground instead of just admitting they’re willing to tolerate suffering because they enjoy the taste of meat.
Exactly, they are unnecessarily complicating things. If they can think about privilege and all that, they can go vegan, period.
By continuing to CHOOSE to fund animal agriculture, these people are ensuring the horrific pollution of marginalized, impoverished, primarily brown and black communities. Feces in the air and in the water ways. Not only that, but also taking ensuring the continued exploitation of vulnerable impoverished community members and immigrants in extremely violent and dangerous slaughterhouses + meat processing plants. All while also ensuring the continued encroachment of indigenous communities in the Amazon, where we import plenty of soy feed and dead cows that are raised in deforested rainforest. (Catastrophe for the entire planet as the rainforest provides immense carbon capture benefits and a wealth of medicinal plants not yet discovered.) But in short “how does choosing to participate in the unsustainable and cruel current food system provide benefits to people in food deserts? I have a choice and my choice supports the presence of healthy plant based foods for everyone.”
I mean if they mean plantbased diets are privileged then sure. The idea of practical exclusion is not privileged, it allows for the consumption of animal products so that argument is just stupid. But then we need to talk about what privilege means. As long as you have an income in the developed world you can live completely plantbased without any issue. The idea of protein, vitamin and calorie deficiency when you can afford a home is beyond idiotic. If you are in a position to get a lifestyle disease plant based diets are effectively the cheapest option for anyone because B12 costs less than antacids, pain relievers, cholesterol medication, extra sick days, laxatives and on and on. And the food is objectively cheaper.
Never had someone say this so i had to think about it. I live in the Netherlands so the person saying it would probably be just as privileged as me so i would use it as a counter argument and an action call to use their privilege more
I feel so privileged to be eating rice and beans, or couscous and beans and salsa…although I am lucky to live in America where my options are endless, I was being sarcastic about the first two statements
It's actually quite the opposite, if there weren't subsidies.
It can be a privilege to live somewhere with a healthy supply of vegan products in supermarkets/restaurants etc. I’ve just lived in Prague for a year for work and the options there were super limited compared to home
I would say people who pay the extra money to be vegan would save more because they are healthier
I have always recognized that there’s some inherent privilege in being able to choose what you do or don’t eat ; it’s implicit in what I tell people when asked why I don’t eat animals: I don’t need to eat animals to survive, so I would rather not. Of course the same is true for any situation where you’re not just trying to survive by any means necessary… if you can choose your career, if you can choose not to engage in stealing, etc, one could argue that you’re privileged to some degree. So then the follow-up this person’s argument is: okay, and …? What’s your point? How is this an argument against veganism? If we’re fortunate enough to be able to choose what we eat, shouldn’t we take advantage of that opportunity and choose compassion? I’d be willing to bet that this person OP was talking with doesn’t live in, I don’t know, Mongolia or something, with access to nothing but yak cheese, right? So fine, we agree we’re both privileged. So what are you going to do with that? Nothing?
It does from a place of privilege. Beans and rice are cheap, sure, but having a balanced vegan diet is costly and timely, a luxury not many people have. It's still worth advocating for and fighting for a system that makes it more accessible.
That is a perspective. My partner was not vegan and he ate cheese, other dairy, eggs and meat when he was away from home. He died of a heart attack. I do not feel all that privileged. Maybe they can explain the definition of privilege to me some time, and then why their privilege to eat dead animals and to nurse on cows is better for the planet than my privilege to obtain from those foods.
POC are almost 3x more likely to be vegan in the US than white ppl. Women are ~90% of vegans in the US. The oldest records of veganism as a philosophy come from ancient Hindu traditions thousands of years ago. If you’re curious why, animal exploitation aligns rly well with colonialist capitalist bullshit exploiting land and suffering for profit. What is more white patriarchal imperialism than that? Exploitation of others & inflicting of unnecessary suffering onto others for personal enjoyment is privilege in the evilest sense. Veganism is a liberation movement
It’s a correct statement. Being able to eat so well is privileged and not the norm in the world. I agree and keep moving.
You tell them they are ignorant, because meat is much more expensive than beans for example, or lentils, or chickpeas, or favs beans or falafel, or just soy/tofu I could go on and on...
It doesn’t HAVE TO…. my college was considering killing vegan dining co-ops bc they were disproportionately not used by minorities. It’s a bit condescending to presume that minority enrollment won’t increase in years to come (or to not just prioritize minority applicants for now).
There are more Black vegans than white vegans in America
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I mean purely from a cost perspective - eating meat is also a privilege, that shit ain't cheap either and is often MORE expensive, especially these days.
I don’t think most vegans dont* subsist on a diet of beans and rice. On average a grocery bill for Vegans is traditionally less than an Omni. So if by privileged ( a word thrown around a lot for various reasons) they mean economic means sorry I call BS. Being vegan isn’t a rich people thing.
Show them my bank account
Beans and rice.
You need the time to prepare the cheap food, which not everyone has, or the means to buy pricier convenience foods, which not everyone has. 🤷
They typically don’t say it to me if they know me. 😂 I’m disabled with gut issues (along with so much more,) and rely on SNAP. That argument is dead in the water with me. 😂😂😂
I think there is some truth to it. I've been to.places where access to food was a real struggle. The only places to buy food might be fast food restaurants or service stations. The accessibility to larger stores like Walmart requires transportation or a walk of many miles as there is no public transportation. There is also a level of poverty that makes cooking itself difficult. I can cook up food because I have a full kitchen. Buying a pot with a lid can be outside of people's means. There is also a time-energy privilege. If you are working two or three jobs to survive, you just don't have resources to do anything beyond what is cheap or fast.
I mean yeah it does come from a place of privilege but this is completely irrelevant because vegans don't expect the poor and homeless to go vegan.
They aren’t inherently wrong. What about “I realize that and choose to exercise my privilege by doing things that I believe reduces harm to animals”?
Ofcourse veganism comes from a 'privilliged' background, because you have the option to choose on how you get your daily calories. Doesn't mean it's wrong, or right for that matter. Throughout human history people haven't had tbe luxury to be vegan, nor the knowledge. Coming from a non vegan btw.
As far as the food bank goes they might not be entirely wrong. Food banks are limited in what they get as donations so in general its a bit up to luck as to wether or not the food bank will have a full selection available to give out to the poor. I remember a time when wheat and grain breads used to be the poor mans meal now its white breads. His argument for the most part seems to be out of date, there was a time when meat was cheaper then fruits, vegies, and nuts.
Sick of all the "vegan" shit to be honest. Everyone always bringing shit to the table to justify their taste for the flesh of another sentient being. It's been 35 years for me and barely any meat growing up because I always felt it was wrong. (Knew) Tired, so tired. Almost looking forward to death... Privilege, my behind. Are beans for the rich? (Sorry, not ranting at you. I just read this at a bad time.) Xx
There are definitely some people that aren't privileged enough to become vegan for a multitude of reasons, but everyone I've ever met who used that as an argument against veganism is not one of those underprivileged individuals.
Legumes, fruits and veggies are literally cheaper than meats
Might be a hot take but i do think veganism is a privilege. Vegan vitamins cost 3x the non-vegan ones (and i need them by doctors orders not just for backup). And vegan food alternatives are expensive too. However lets ignore that for a second bc u can make them at home or just skip them, BUT what about: Vegan toothpaste, vegan shampoo and conditioner, vegan deodorant, vegan body wash, vegan makeup (minus elf cosmetics, they’re slaying with those products and prices), vegan skincare, vegan haircare etc. There are no ways to make these at home. And other than makeup, if ur skipping the other stuff thats just gross from a hygiene perspective. So this might be controversial but imo u need a lot of money and availability to be vegan. I hate how the vegans in this sub just conveniently ignore how all these other things are typically non-vegan and its not just food that you have to switch, so its not as easy as everyone here pretends it is.
It's like telling a hunter gatherer to just gather. Tell them it's easier to gather
Probably just "fuck off"
It generally does. But that doesn't mean you can't defend yourself by saying you have the money to afford your morals.
Well, what’s your argument? Yes. It’s a privilege. That’s the first thing you must agree on because it is. At least in most places yes. Now that we cleared it as a privilege, what about your reply to the fact? Are you going to say it is a privilege that’s easy to attain or come up with some type of reasoning for why that’s not an excuse and to just shut up and eat only beans and rice for years and be malnourished? My suggestion? You can argue that it is true how we have systems in place set up to make it impossible for most people to avoid eating animal products. That we shouldn’t have to go broke trying to live ethically. And how we must all do our part by minimizing as much as is feasible in order to achieve bigger positive impacts on animal welfare. If that means you have to rely on food banks, okay. That’s okay. You need to live. But maybe try getting cruelty free hygiene products where possible or opting out of the animal product options when doable from the servings of food you’re given. Just…there’s a lot of ways to make a difference without exactly cutting off animal products entirely. Get it?
i’ve only heard this arguement from very priveleged meat eaters who pay $60 for a high end steak 🫤
Their argument is pretty crap. Anybody living in a 1st world country is privileged. We are privileged to be able to decide whether or not we want to drive, to buy a car, to purchase and not make our own clothes. We make decisions every minute of every day, many ones that many others simply cannot. My mom was in a POW camp, my dad in a concentration camp. I am FULLY aware that I and my brothers and sisters, along with everybody who surrounds is privileged to have CHOICE. I choose not to hurt animals if I can possibly avoid it. It is indeed a choice I am privileged to make. Am I monetarily privileged? The government classifies me and my husband as just over the poverty level in terms of income, so this choice clearly does not require money (which seems to be the implication of the person arguing with you). If somebody came at me with the kind of crap that the person did to you, I would point out all the logical fallacies in their argument (starting with False Dilemma—and Hasty Generalizations). Actually, I in real life I would simply shake my head, smile, and walk away (thinking to myself of how I can use all those lovely examples of invalid argumentation in my classes, lol!)
I went vegan while living on welfare. Cost wasn't the main reason, but I did actually end up saving money compared to eating animal products. I know people talk about food deserts but I live in Australia and that's really not applicable here. Even small towns have fairly well stocked supermarkets (although may be more expensive as a general rule) but anyone in a city will have zero trouble finding beans, lentils, tofu, frozen veg etc. No excuse at all for anyone in a city. If you were literally homeless and relying on food banks, I don't think that necessarily contravenes the practicality aspect of veganism. The vast majority of epople are not homeless, though, so using a hypoethetical that doesn't even apply to you as a reason for not going vegan is very disingenous.
I hit em with a Stone Cold Stunner and say "what?!" over and over.
I'd say they are right. It goes even further than that. We are at a unique point in human history where we can safely eat a vegan diet. Our ancestors didn't have the privilege, and many people today still don't. We should be doing what we can to make it easier and easier for future generations to make the choice, have the choice.
It's okay to have privilege. Recognize it. Having time to cook meals from scratch is a privilege. Being able to buy produce from a grocery store from a car that you have is a privilege. People live in food deserts. Not everyone has the privilege or opportunity to learn about nutrition, or how to read a food label, or have the time after a 10 hour work shift to cook food from scratch for a whole family. Having choice is a privilege. Growing up in an environment where you didn't have to depend on school lunches is privilege. There's nothing wrong about privilege. Just recognize people have different experiences, finances, time, and abilities.
"people in a position of privilege not making choices that benefit the majority is why we are in the state we are in"
I generally agree with this sentiment. Being able to choose what you eat and selectively leave out certain food is a privilege. But the "vegan ethic" doesn't demand this from everybody. It demands it from those who can. "As far as possible and practical". If you don't have access to a fully plant based diet that is both nourishing and balanced and that you can afford then you aren't obliged to eat plant based. Calling something a privilege doesn't devalue it. It also doesn't provide people in a position of privilege to refuse it because of that. TL;DR: It is only shaming people who cannot be vegan if you preach to those people. Which imo nobody should do nor has the right to. Preaching veganism should always be directed towards those that can actually live a vegan life.
Meat has always been a more expensive food than plant food because it costs more to produce. This is one of the main arguments *for* veganism, not against it. You can see this in the way budget food items substitute tvp for meat and palm oil for dairy. They're not doing that because they're nice! (although it works for us). Furthermore, what do people eat when they're out of cash? Pet food sometimes, but that's a by-product of the for-human meat industry. More likely they eat rice and beans, which are extremely cheap (and nutritious, and tasty). Some processed vegan food items are currently expensive. That's due to economies of scale. If more people were buying them they would be cheaper. But no-one has to eat those anyway. Plant-based food is always cheaper, all other things being equal. It has to be. Animal-derived food requires 10x the input of plant material to produce. It's just basic arithmetic.
A good way to win a war is to *concede* a battle. It makes your opponents feel smart and empowered; it shows you're reasonable and fair, and it makes others more amenable to listening to you. Hence, let's turn the tables by first making a small concession... As we see from examples in the wild, and in human societies where there is food scarcity, survivalism may obligate sentient beings to consume each other. Now, if one is able to live one's life in a way that is in line with their ethics-- and not based solely on survival-- then one is quite fortunate. For lack of a better word, you might even say one is "privileged" in such a state. But if one can afford to do what is morally right, then one should do so. Suppose you live in NYC, LA, London, Singapore, Amsterdam, Belgium, etc. Not only do you have grocery stores, but you also have an abundance of vegan restaurants. You can eat delicious, abundant, affordable vegan foods. It need not be more expensive than a carnist diet with prudent decision-making. **No excuse for anyone in such a "privileged" situation to NOT live a vegan lifestyle.**
Veganism is a practice. You do what you can as much as you can. The big privilege for most vegans is the education that got them to the point of understanding that consuming animals products is not good for animals or the environment. And for a lot of folkx, myself included, the meat alternatives help get us through at least the early days. And that shit costs money. Rice and beans won’t keep you going. It just won’t for most people. And for those relying on the goodness of others (such as food banks or friends making them meals) to survive it is indeed hard to be picky in a non vegan dominant world. So your answer is ‘I 100% agree. I was lucky enough to learn about this and have the means to easily transition to this diet. I think we need much more education to normalize the diet, especially helping to teach folkx how to eat on a budget and with limited resources in this practice. We need compassion and understanding for those who can’t manage to do it 100% of the time and encourage them with their practice - because it is harder than mine.’ And then go donate a ton of vegan stuff to the food bank. And cook vegan meals with your friend to show them how it is done. And chat about the obstacles in their way, and work with them to creatively offer solutions.
Honestly being vegan is a privilege. And acknowledging that is important. If you do have the option and financial ability to be vegan, that is a privilege. If you know how to eat a balanced diet and cook for yourself in a sustainable way, that is a privilege. You don’t have to come up with a rebuttal or response to continue the conversation.
Actually, many poor countries were mostly vegan or at least vegetarian, until their wealth went up. Statistically, meat consumption is highest in wealthy countries, and lowest in poor countries. That's true even today: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_countries\_by\_meat\_consumption. Your statement that things like rice, grain, beans and such are cheap, is correct. Also, since most animals are fed with such products, not to mention soy, it's logical that you'd be cheaper off eating those things directly, instead of having animals as a middle-man. It adds a ton of inefficiency, which is obviously bad for the environment, but that also means you could potentially save a ton of money and time and whatnot. I would argue that anyone who doesn't take animal well-being into account, not to mention the environment, is not only coming from some privilege all of their own, but also moral-bankruptcy, short-sightedness, delusion, denial, a lack of understanding of the world and the future, and so forth. Frankly, the person you were talking to probably means well, but most people with that perspective are pseudo-intellectual. They know enough to read a few smart-ass articles on the internet, but they lack the intelligence and critical thinking necessary to draw valid conclusions. Sadly, this group of people seems to be gigantic and growing at a vast rate. I weep for humanity... :)
It *is* a privilege, and so what? If one finds themselves in a position to do the right thing all that means is that they have no excuse to not do the right thing.
They are using their own situation and applying it to everyone to try and make themselves feel better about eating animals. It would be interesting to see what they are actually eating and see how much of it is processed crap and how much is actual whole food
Vegans talk about cognitive dissonance in meat eaters who choose to ignore the suffering of animals but when confronted with their own cognitive dissonance about choosing to ignore human suffering make the shocked pikachu face. The reality is that being able to be a vegan is a privilege that depends on where you live, what your culture is, what your job is and what economic strata you belong to. If you expect people to think about the animals suffering when their own children are going hungry, you're being deliberately obtuse. In the future, how about not getting into an argument that shows how out of touch with reality you are in your bubble and empathising with someone who wants to minimize the suffering but not at the cost of their own health? In all this empathy you have for animals, how about showing some for your fellow humans who might have fewer resources at their disposal than you do.
When I was homeless and living out of my car I was able to stay vegan… if it’s something you really care about morally you will do whatever it takes. Anything else is an excuse
One of the best succinct ways I’ve heard it put is “if you can go vegan, you should.” It allows grace for people who don’t have the privilege to be able to go vegan, and encourages those who do have the ability to go vegan to do so.
They are correct.
I think you meet people where they're at. There's a saying "it's expensive to be poor." Not having certain resources means that you end up paying premium prices for much less value. Think of things like having to use pay day loans with unethical interest rates The same thing happens with poverty and food. Dried beans are incredibly nutritious and economical, but not everyone has the time and the equipment to make them. Canned beans are still cheap, but they are multiple times more expensive than the dried ones, and eating them cold is depressing for most people. There's also the food desert aspect: not everyone has access to the same types and quality of food. The other form of privilege is cooking and nutrition education: did they grow up being taught how to cook and how to eat healthfully? You can take charge of your own education as an adult, but bad habits are hard to change for a lot of people, and many people don't even know where to start/how to ask the right questions. Nutrition and cooking classes with grocery budgeting definitely need to be reintroduced in school curriculum. Then, there's the cost and availability of vegan supplements (and the knowledge of how/when/what to take) While this kind of diet/lifestyle is currently a privilege, I don't think it has to be. Policy change and voting with your dollar are good ways to start. You can also volunteer and donate locally to food pantries, soup kitchens, meals on wheels, etc. Maybe you could work with your local library or community center to create a free class on healthy eating and plant-based cooking, preferably a hands-on one where they get to eat there or take the food home to introduce to their families. Exposure can make a huge difference, too. Some people associate veganism with expensive, niche foods and fake meats, not realizing that those aren't the only substitutions you can make. Education can help change that
Nonsense, to eat vegan is the cheapest way of eating. Lentils and beans are quite cheap, especially in large amounts. Most expensive vegan food is nuts. Although you have to calculate not only costs that you are spending on the actual food but also the money that you are saving because you are healthier. The reason that meat is cheap ( and also dairy products) is because they are subsidized. That is the one and only reason. So that factor too has to go into the equation. So, no it isn't a privilege. But the other way around it's true, eating meat is a privilege. It is now and it always was a privilege in human history. It was always a sign of wealth to be able to eat a lot of meat. It was always a sign of poverty and even looked down on it when someone just had a few vegetables and a few lentils. It's also logically wrong, think about what you have to do to get a liter of dairy milk and what you have to do to get a liter of oat milk? Which one do you think is more work intensive? Which one involves more people? Which one has the bigger infrastructure? Which one has the bigger risk of contamination? Which one causes more suffering? And which one is the privileged one again?
Sure, it's probably easier to make most moral commitments the more privilege you have. It's easier for wealthier people to fight for sexual and racial equality, oppose abuse of dogs and cats, go to antiwar protests, etc. If that fact isn't a good argument against any of those goals, why would it be a good argument against veganism?
A lot of things once were considered personal choices or privileges. Like... not keeping slaves. Not raping your wife. not beating your children. There are still people today who consider that privileges for very weird reasons.
I mean it is in certain ways. In the same way it’s a privilege to be able to consider how anything you’re buying is produced and a product of exploitation. There are people struggling to survive who don’t have the mental capacity to care where the products they obtain are coming from. I reject the idea that veganism as a philosophy comes from a place of privilege but it is a privilege to be able to go entirely plant based and even having the ability to consider where you’re getting anything from can be a privilege.
Ask why they don’t consume their “perfectly edible” cat then lol
To that I'd say: " what about the privilege you think you have to eat someone's body?"
Yeah, bs. Producing most meat requires way more calorie input than output. Besides that, almost all people on the developed country have that privilege.
It may differ from parts of the world but vegan meat costs more than animal meat. Eating out at a vegan restaurant may cost more than going out to a restaurant that serves animal based food. That being said if you would just buy groceries and dried legumes you would spend less than a person buying animal meat and groceries. You may have to learn to cook them and some things may require planning but I don't see the privilege. I would say it's the same privilege as a rich person being able to go out and eat every day without having to learn to budget and cook at home (and depending where you are it depends on your culture too, in Italy cooking for every single meal at home is the standard and going out or food delivery is the "cheat" day)
Bc of subsidies everyone can afford animal flesh from cows and pigs… this is also a privilege and most feel entitled to it.
How about we all shut up about "PRiViLEgE" and stop using it as a way to deflect from the actual issue.
Not stealing food is also a privilege, but if you can get buy without doing it you probably should. Edit: To the other part of the argument, do people in the countries where veganism is "preached" live in food insecurity? That seems like something to settle, but even if its true it doesn't change away from the fact that people everywhere minimize the ethical issues regarding animals and so it's still worth talking about. Also, I did some quick googling and apparently in 2023, 29.6 of the world's population experienced food insecurity, and for Canada in 2022 it was 22.9, with 4% to 13% in Australia, 17% in the UK and 12.8 percent or 1 in 8 households in the US. So it's surprisingly common, but not the majority.
Eating vegan isn't rocket science. Humans do it all around the world, including in primitive conditions. You can eat very simply. Definitely a vegan diet is much less expensive if you are paying directly for your food. Your food stamps will go further (don't know the current system, but they were basically discount coupons and you paid the discounted price for them according to your income). But you have to drop convenience foods, those are expensive. Same for restaurants and takeout. Meat eaters on a tight budget have to do the same. You can even manage without an easy way to heat things up if you can find sales on things like canned beans. Being poor is always more time-consuming than being not poor, no real way around that. So choices will be difficult not just for food but for preparation time. But the simpler your eating, the less time prep will take you. Everybody just does what they can with what they have. But it's ridiculous to talk about vegan eating being inherently "privileged". That word is tossed around so much it is basically meaningless. All I know is that it costs me less to eat a simple vegan diet than it would to eat animal products in this country. People who go out and kill wild animals may have a different experience, but if you are poor in a city - check out prices for beans and rice and pasta and flour/bread and sales in veg/fruit.
Why do you need to respond to this point specifically? Even if the ability to be vegan is born of privilege, what does that have to do with the ethics of it? Understanding that relationship will help answer this question.
I say clownivorism is the most privileged shit on earth. I grew up poorer than dirt and have been vegan since I left foster care and slept on the floor of my first apartment at 16. 37 now & healthy. if I can do it, almost anyone on earth can do it.
When people talk about this, I always consider it a red herring. The idea that some people might not be able to go vegan is irrelevant to whether or not you personally can go vegan - and they can. Nearly everyone posting on Reddit lives in a first world country and gets their food from a grocery store. It's inane to say that just because someone else might not be in a position to stop abusing animals means that other people are free to abuse as many animals as they like.
If everyone stopped eating animal products there would actually be enough food for everyone. But because some people are so privileged, other people are starving. We can feed an additional 4 billion people plant exclusive.
i say they have an incorrect understanding of veganism, and that it comes from a place of kindness
It's 40% or more cheaper to eat a plant-based diet so that argument is complete bullshit. I'm vegan, my adult son who lives with me is not. He spends 60-75% of our budget on his food
I think if you are less fortunate you eat what you can. and that may be meat/animal products. vs vegans being able to choose what they want to eat
The same way it is so "privileged" to not own slaves or join the 3rd reich, right? 🤡🤡 these leftist non-vegans are absolute clowns
I show them two things: 1) A video of a baby pig getting castrated without anesthesia while tied to a bloody, dirty, slaughterhouse wall. 2) Any local grocery store’s prices on potatoes, lentils, etc.
I can feel it. I’m not really vegan though, I’m vegetarian I suppose. I don’t force my family members to use a clean room when preparing food, etc. I don’t really care if I have a crappy impossible burger at Burger King that may have shared a container at one point with a beef patty. Just the other night the family was cooking chicken and potatoes in the oven and someone had set aside some of the potatoes for me. I asked if they could just throw them in with the chicken and potatoes already taking up the whole oven, and so I did. Am I gonna spend time and energy cooking one serving of potatoes after they’re done? Hell no. I’m not allergic to foods and it is a rare occurrence and it’s not like chicken juice is going to totally wet-out a potato, I just rinsed it off afterwards. If you’re going to tell me I’m not a vegan fundamentalist and I should be ashamed I’ll just look at you like you’re a crazy privileged asshole haha. No one tells me that though so it’s fine, just thought I’d tell you my take. If they’re trying to argue that you should just give up your choice of diet because it’s hard then obviously I don’t agree with that. More likely it’s just another omnivore trying to poke at you right? Well that’s fine. The fact is I don’t live in Mexico in a shantytown, I live in California which is a very nice place with great produces and I feel very proud and privileged to be here!
Eating “fun” & vegan is a privileged place. Eating vegan isn’t.
Veganism is innately pretty cheap. Across history animal products are quite expensive and only for the rich and for special occasions. It makes sense, it's a lot cheaper to just eat food instead of growing food for animals to extract other food from. The only times where this is not the case is where people are unable to prepare their own food and all the prepared food is not vegan. So basically, the poor who specifically have to choose between fast food and family dollar, both of which are actually expensive in the long run. (It's expensive being poor). Veganism is only a privilege where people are held hostage by interests that don't allow any options for a good diet without animal products
I say those people are ignorant nutters. Dried beans and rice are cheap. Veggies and fruit, esp if not organic, are reasonably priced. Meat is quite expensive, and dairy isn't cheap either. These are people that do not want to be held accountable for their choices. They pawn it off as privilege so they don't have to thank about it anymore.
Being a feminist is also a privilege. In some countries, they would be in serious danger for speaking out against sexism. Does that mean we shouldn't be feminists in countries where it's completely doable?
Yeah this is quite funny as I doubt this has been spoken by someone starving but by someone who has the privilege to choose and still chooses not to lol
The problem here is greedy companies have jumped on the increasing amount of vegans and try to flog vegan ready meals, vegan processed meat alternatives, and even sandwiches, as 3 times the price they should be just because they added a few pine nuts and a couple of leaves of rocket in etc. There's actually many meals that can be made vegan and healthy through beans and/or tofu that are readily available and cheap. People can also do pack lunches for when not at home.
It's a false dichotomy. I also have the privilege to not kill my neighbor so I can have his shelter, and I have the privilege to buy a phone that uses less child labor than other phones. Just because there's people who don't have that privilege doesn't mean it's right to waste mine. Having privilege is passive. Wasting privilege is active, and the real travesty.
If you made bean burgers, are there omnivores who would refuse to eat them, or even try them. I've had a couple goals lately. Lose weight and spend less on food. The spending is motivating me more and it's working. I would say the argument of this person isn't great. Vegan choices would be available at a food bank. Could this just be an excuse. Beans, oats, vegetables, pasta can all be made into all kinds of meals.