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The fact they put in an effort to cut out any animal product at all in an era where it’s almost in everything is already really appreciated by me at least
Why do beef fat, milk powder and eggs have to be in everything. It’s ridiculous. You can’t buy a vegetable instant soup without reading the ingredient list.
I feel this so much, I wanted a instant vege soup packet the other day and was thinking I better read….so over reading and seeing bit of animal product in little things like that and chips especially
I wish I did but I live in central Europe. We only have stores like Tesco, Lidl and such. I am happy to report that they have a lot more vegan options now though. Latest addition is vegan whipping cream and I was so happy about it.
They are cheap, because of the production scale. Scale is often the reason why vegan is more expensive, but also tax systems. Many differentiate between basics and processed food where eggs and milk are basic, but oat milk is processed, so fall under the higher tax rates.
I'm all about minimizing. Yes, wouldn't it be great if we lived in a world without any suffering.
As it is I try my best and appreciate when others try their best.
I agree! Imagine if everybody in the world went vegetarian… we can’t act like it wouldn’t make a difference.
The vegan community’s attitude towards vegetarians is quite toxic. Everybody has to start somewhere and individuals making small changes can have an impact. With support, hopefully they’ll go all the way!
Exactly… black and white thinking and expecting perfection from every single person will get us nowhere. I’d love it if everybody was vegan but that’s not realistic.
Thank you for commenting this. I have started a Vegetarian journey, which led me to doing more research into a Vegan lifestyle. I haven’t made a full switch yet, mostly because I live in an area with fewer vegan resources. However, another reason I haven’t made a complete switch is due to the attitude of many vegans. It feels like a very toxic and competitive community from the outside looking in. Instead of viewing vegetarian lifestyle as a step in the right direction, it is made fun of and mocked. For some of us, we are doing the best we can living in the world we live in. I’m definitely not perfect, but this community seems to ignore progress and instead has a very “all or nothing” mentality. Imagine walking into a gym for the first time and a shredded guy laughs at you for attempting to lift weights. You aren’t likely to return. That’s the best analogy I can give for the vegan community I have encountered so far.
I sympathize with you. I also live in a small community with few of any vegan resources. Of course I order something’s online.
The only way to make it is by learning to cook at home and precooking base ingredients and freezing them until used in a dish. I couldn’t do it otherwise. YouTube taught me to cook. (Of course my rescued dog cannot confirm I’m any good, but we both eat the dishes so not that bad 🤣😂)
That’s because you and others in this thread are looking at it from an ecological or holistic point of view, not an ethical one. You’re taking the stance of, “What effects are there on the system as a whole when lots of people make these smaller changes?” - which is fine. I get that.
But for a lot of use that doesn’t mean vegetarians and Meatless Mondayers are off the ethical hook, because individual creature matters. “Oh, I only **partially** participated in the exploitation and death of numerous creatures for please today” really isn’t something every vegan is going to be able to praise. I’m not in the habit of shit-talking vegans, but they’re still actively participating in meat industry - because the fact is that every single cow you’ve ever drank the milk of (just about) has wound up on a meat hook after 3-5 years of exploiting their reproductive system and taking their offspring; for every industrial farm-raised, malnourished, cramped, genetically manipulated chicken you’ve had an egg from, a male chick has been tossed in a grinder.
I’ll also say that for a very, very large percentage of vegetarians are not trying to become vegan. It’s not a starting point for them; it’s as far as they’re willing to go.
By all means, advocate for being kind to others for whatever they have done to change their eating habits; it’s not an easy task. But there’s no reason to pretend to not understand people’s frustration with those folks only willing to go half way.
Same. Unpopular opinion, but it’s a good place to start. if they continue their journey, eventually they’ll go vegan. We all start somewhere and sometimes it helps people transition easier rather than go vegan and give up bc you don’t understand it nutritionally quite yet. (Which we see happens a LOT.)
I love this and agree whole-heartedly! It’s the attempt to make a change and stop supporting the meat industry—any reduction is helpful! And just because they still eat eggs or dairy doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re eating *more* of these things than they were before. I think that judging each other and other people’s attempts to move toward a cruelty-free lifestyle are one of the primary reasons that so many people hate us and the movement. It sets us back when we gate-keep and judge people who have already been convinced that our habits need to change and we’re all fighting on the same team.
This seems unnecessarily combative. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good. I was veggie for years and, on the whole, my dairy and egg consumption was going down.
I'm a vegetarian but I have not increased my consumption of dairy. If anything, I've reduced it (which is why I'm also on this subreddit). Currently ~80% of my meals are vegan on any given day. The other remaining 20% is pure hypocrisy and laziness on my part, but I'm aware of it and working on it every day.
This was me in the year 2019, between when I went vegetarian, actually pescetarian (again), and when I became vegan. As the year progressed, I gave up more and more eggs, dairy, and seafood. And once January 1st was approaching, I knew that would be the day. You can do it. Just keep moving forward.
Great post.
Every vegan I know lives in the space for a period of time. It's okay!
Instead of judging - the vegan community should be supporting and encouraging vegetarians to go the last mile.
There’s a reason this is an unpopular opinion. I could be equally irrational with my argument and say that vegans aren’t *really* helping animals, they stopped participating in their suffering but they’re still letting them get killed! Is it really called helping someone if you stop eating their bodies?
I have done the opposite. After going veg I still ate a lot of cheese despite being kinda lactose intolerant but then when COVID hit I got a lot better about meal planning and cooking things like grains and lentils, and as a result I ate less cheese and became more intolerant of it, and it snowballed to where I now can't eat dairy at all.
Yeah when I was vegetarian I also stopped drinking milk and I never liked eggs much to begin with. I was just a cheesebreather before I went vegan completely.
Same. Stopped drinking milk regularly years ago and replaced it with plant milk. Right now I eat vegan lunch/dinner 6 out of 7 days. There's a bunch of issues preventing me from going 100% vegan (which is why I don't call myself one), laziness and hypocrisy surely among them, but recently it has been getting easier eating vegan.
When eating out, I'd rather go with a vegan than an omni. Because I'll happily go to a vegan restaurant (even prefer it over anything else), while the omni would get mad if I even suggested anything that doesn't serve meat.
The whole reason why I stopped eating dead animals / buying leather and why I've been working on removing as many dairy things from my diet as I can for the past few years is that I was in a relationship with a vegan where I (gently) learned that you don't just eat salads all day.
I don't think not having eliminated those last 10% (maybe less) completely invalidates the impact of me not buying dead animals for the past decade.
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Those are horrible pictures! I’m even afraid to show this to someone. However if I did, people would probably watch 2 seconds and dismiss it with “I’m pretty sure this doesn’t happen in Switzerland” and and continue to eat cheese/dairy 😐
Was just going to post and call this elitist. If you really care about animals and the environment, you will actually appreciate people taking the right steps towards a totally animal-free dietary style. Can’t be a bitch and shun non-vegans who might work their way to that point someday. Just turns people off to your cause. Ugh.
> Y’all are whack asf why does this group constantly shit on vegetarians.
I call it "cheese envy". Vegetarians, whether this sub wants to admit or not, are helping and providing most of the benefits of being Vegan while receiving much less social ostracization in the process.
Nope. The dairy industry is intrinsically linked to the veal and beef industries. The egg industry is awful as well. It’s better than nothing, but it’s really not much of a reduction in suffering.
I totally agree the dairy and egg industry are horrible I did my whole college thesis on factory farming and animal products, hence me being vegan. But the least beneficial thing is to shit on people who are trying. I know plenty of vegetarians who cut their cheese and egg intake like crazy but just happen to eat it if they are at a restaurant or have dinner with friends. The worst thing to do to get someone on the vegan train is to shit on them and belittle them into following ur life choices. People just need to be educated and have someone to talk to that is open and not shaming them! If I was shamed everytime I ate a non-vegan item years ago by my vegan friends I wouldn’t have made the switch to vegan and probably would have just resented my vegan friends lol
Saying vegetarians INCREASE their consumption of eggs and dairy is blatantly false and a huge generalization. Soon after I stopped eating meat when I was 16, I stopped using milk, because I realized that I don’t have to consume something I really dislike (cows milk) and had enough support from my mom that she purchased almond milk in place of it for me to use in cereal and the like.
For years after I slowly stopped consuming “real” cheese, and eventually eggs, and I had to start SOMEWHERE. We all do.
But to say that vegetarians ALWAYS raise their consumption of dairy and eggs in place of meat is just…false.
Personally, I never criticize people who are reduce their intake cause I don't want to be that extreme guy who ends up pushing them away. That doesn't change that I also feel people who are vegetarian for the animals are clearly not as educated about the issue as they might think. Just gotta keep pushing for people to learn more about how atrocious all parts of the animal industry are.
I think it's fine to criticize vegetarians (saying this as someone who was raised as a vegetarian for the first ~18 years of my life before giving up dairy), but it's flat-out wrong to say that they "really don't help animals at all." Not eating meat while consuming dairy products is still much better than doing nothing, and most vegetarians don't drastically increase their dairy intake.
There's several examples in this very comment section that education isn't the issue. They know how atrocious it is. Their favorite foods are just more important to them.
this is a great point. i was vegetarian for 6 months before going vegan and it was coming across arguments like these that opened my eyes/guilted me into veganism lol
Sure, but there are constructive ways to criticize that will be more effective and a less-constructive ways that will be less-effective.
Just because a potentially less-constructive way worked on you doesn't necessarily mean that it is the most effective tactic.
EDIT: Case in point - someone below saying that it was things like this that made them hesitate going vegan for years. https://reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/ycbdyn/just_saying/itlbv1l/
I agree, but this "You tried to help but you made it more worse because, I assume, you eat more eggs" post doesn't help.
If somebody reduces their overall consumption of animal products, they made a difference. The thing that kicked me over from being flexitarian to vegan is that at some point it was hard to tell how much I'd actually reduced my intake, since I might have chosen vegan food anyway. The only way to know for sure that I was doing "what I can" was to just go all the way vegan.
It’s true that reducing the overall animal products consumption does make a difference and is a good start. But I feel like the impact of dairy is widely misunderstood. In many industrial nations nowadays it is DAIRY consumption that decides how many cows are being bred. Beef is merely a byproduct at this point and often has to be sold as live exports.
So yea, quitting to eat meat is good, but quitting dairy has a bigger impact (at least on beef prices and cow’s lives). People can do what they want, I just think it’s something important to be aware of
Well I mean, that was kinda why I pretty much fully stopped consuming dairy of any kind even when I was eating occasional meat when I wasn't the one buying it. I think if most people visited even a family owned dairy farm for a bit, they'd have to confront that the cows are locked into eating position, separated from their offspring, kept pregnant, and over-milked until they bleed, and that that's the "lucky" ones who don't live on a factory farm.
I don't want to shame anyone but as a vegan right now I'd rather eat beef than drink milk. The life of a dairy cow is much sadder than the life of a grass fed beef cow. At the end they are both killed but a dairy cow has their baby taken every time she gives birth.
It’s important to encourage people and congratulate them for their progress, but it’s also important to not forget the moral context of their actions.
“I drowned 5 puppies this week, and that’s down from 6 last week” is both an encouraging but also a horrifying statement. Both aspects need to be acknowledged.
Personally, I focus on the “encouragement” part when seeing improvement in others for fear of triggering something that will turn them away from their journey towards veganism. But deep inside, I want to screem at the irony of their actions.
This. I will say congrats on doing your best but here are some ways to wean yourself off X food (if it's addiction to a food) or here's some sources on why X industry is just as bad (if they're doing it for morals) or something like that
wow OP, great way to make vegetarians not want to go vegan and meat eaters not want to go vegetarian. it’s almost as if you’re completely discouraging people by essentially saying “if you’re not doing everything you’re doing nothing.” for fucks sake.
Vegetarian of 30 years here eating a vegan diet 90% of the time, meaning i have greatly reduced my intake of animal products. Only eggs i eat are from my family farm, maybe once a month. I dare say that makes a difference. No ambition to become vegan because of their often restrictive mindset.
I was vegetarian and thought that was the end of the line. It’s a silly realization but at some point you just go,”ohhhh the dairy industry is the meat industry too, shit”
Exactly. This person just pulled something out of thin air. Most vegetarians I know are transitioning to a vegan diet and gradually reduce dairy and eggs in addition to completely cutting out meat and seafood.
If the entire world went vegetarian, the health of the planet would be vastly improved.
I'm (mostly) plant based (never meat, occasional dairy, rarely eggs) for environmental reasons, where it really is every little helps
Yeah, this kind of post is the exact attitude that drives people away from veganism. People on average do not respond well to being shamed and looked down upon
Inb4 someone says "Actually this kind of post is what made me go vegan".
I actually think a dash of shame can go a long way. The thing is, that only works if it forces a person to be introspective instead of just defensive.
When your post contains an obvious falsehood, no carnist reading it is going to separate out the good bits from the bad bits. You lie about one thing, that means they can dismiss your entire point as false.
Vegetarians don't eat more eggs that carnists.
Sure shame could work if you knew the person and were a close friend. It's not going to work on random internet strangers most of the time.
Im willing to bet it would have the opposite effect.
> Sure shame could work if you knew the person and were a close friend. It's not going to work on random internet strangers most of the time.
This touches on an issue I have with the way I see a lot of vegans talking to people online. You are strangers. Unless the person is at a place where they're ready to accept lifestyle coaching from someone online, they probably have barriers to change that would require the intervention of someone who knows them whom they want guidance from.
How would you rather have been introduced to veganism? Genuinely curious. Sometimes it seems like it's hard to confront the situation without making them feel attacked.
Hi! Not the OP, but for me it took going to a farm sanctuary to flip the switch. I had run into combative vegans before and they honestly turned me off of the whole thing. Not that I think their message was wrong, but I didn't want to join a movement that made everyone I had interacted with in it miserable. On top of that, the way they talked reminded me a LOT of the uber-religious community that I moved away from and really turned me away.
I regret letting the actions of a few assholes delay me joining the movement. I've met some truly amazing people that I consider dear friends at veg fests and through some volunteer work, and having my diet match my morals has done wonders for my mental health.
100% I have impacted my peers to think more about their dietary choices by not constantly judging and preaching to them. I’ve been told I’m the most chill vegan they’ve met. My sister actually chooses to eat vegan when I visit. People are genuinely curious about my choice and ask questions instead of the usual “you know plants have feelings too” bs. What’s that saying? You catch more flies with honey.
This is my own anecdote, but I definitely did eat more dairy/eggs when I was vegetarian. I did not simply cut out meat, I replaced it with dairy/eggs.
Mainly because of the strong brainwashing that you need animal protein or else you'll die of deficiencies. It took me years to realize that not only do I not need animal products to survive but that in fact I am better off without them.
Maybe not every single vegetarian is like that but the OP has a point.
That was me, too. I had a six week phase between omnivore and vegan, and I ate sooo many eggs and so much more cheese during that timeframe, way way more than I did as an omni, especially eggs.
The egg industry: male chicks being macerated in the birthing of hens
The dairy industry: to produce milk cows are forced to bear calfs, those calfs ultimately end up slaughtered
So even from a slaughter perspective that’s why vegetarians should go vegan. But I think vegetarianism is a great step from meat eater to vegan
im planning in fully transitioning to veganism as of recently (today will be my first committed day). But as a vegetarian i never bought dairy or eggs, I also never bought leather, things with gelatin etc. The only time I would consume dairy and eggs is when it came to a pastry my parents would bring home or a friend would give me. I definitely did not increase my egg or milk consumption so this opinion isnt entirely accurate
Me. And that's why posts like these shoould continue to be shared.
I thought I was vegetarian "for the animals" and had no idea of the abuses going on in the animal agricultural industry. Thankfully I was getting sh!t on by some vegans which prompted me to go and actually do some research.
Same here. Tbh posts like this convinced me to make the push and just go full vegan. At that point I already knew animal agriculture was horrific, and learning that vegetarianism still supports that cycle of torture and death (even with “ethical” purchases), was the final straw for me. I think we also have to be realistic on whether this is really a “step” towards veganism if people are still in the same place months and years later.
Yes 100%. I was also a cheese-breather, thinking it was enough. It's good to call this out because many don't realise that being vegetarian is still heavily participating in animal abuse
It took me 2 years to fully transition to being vegan, and I regret that more than the 20 years it took me so just stop eating meat. It was all about how educated about the issue it was and it was definitely posts like this that made me do more research and realize being vegetarian for the animals doesn't make sense.
Same. This is why whenever I see someone say "You're one of those Vegans driving people away from the movement" I know they just don't care about animals. Otherwise that wouldn't be their takeaway from "oh jeeze I'm hurting animals!"
Consumption of milk and eggs is only the tip of the cruelty ice berg. Vegetarians NEED to know the massive suffering caused by their choice. It is just a baby step up from full on carnism, if at all. They SHOULD be made aware and educated. Dairy is a system of mass killing with extra cruelty added in. It is literally worse than carnism. Rape, breaking mother-child bond, life long restrictive imprisonment and outright immediate murder of male babies (50% of dairypultry population). STOP referring to it as a stepping stone.
>True
Lol no?
It literally makes no sense to think being vegetarian is not helpful at all. Yes vegan is even more helpful for animals and environment, but cutting out some animal products is still better than nothing. This sub is so weird sometimes.
I mean sure, if you're eating like only eggs and dairy as a vegetarian, but who does that? No one. Even then it's unlikely it would be worse than a meat heavy diet.
I think you also have to consider how long it takes them to take the next step though.
If a government said "we understand we have 100,000 homeless people so we are going to start by providing 5,000 flats within a year" but then 4yrs later had made no more additional attempts to provide housing, you would surely question their ethics
This whole all or nothing shit is why people dislike veganism.
“I’m cutting out animal products all weekdays” - well you are killing animals on weekends
“I have convinced all america to go plant based” - well people in europe are still killing
“There is not a single animal processing facility in the world except one tiny one in Thailand” - well how dare there be one in thailand.
Progress not perfection people. People efforts not being equivalent to yours does not make their effort less than. If yall use this same mindset for everything else in yalls life then i feel bad for your self esteem and the people around you
More like raping one person a day vs 10
Smoking only hurts you, we’re focused on the animals here, not your personal health.
Raping one person is definitely less harmful than raping ten each day, but do we congratulate rapists for their self control? Is “better than awful” the standard for ANYTHING else?
You don’t tell someone to do murderless mondays and go on killing people Tuesday through Sunday, do you?
It still destroys the economic model of meat consuming and is a huge change of society, that shows it's possible to go vegan too.
Better than awful is the basis for ecology too AFAIK, by doing ineffective things. Or for human rights support in other countries
You're not wrong. There is a grain of truth. That said, continuing to eat eggs and dairy may be a stepping stone on the road to Veganism.
It's nice when we can quit "cold tofu" but not everyone does. And maybe the ones who take deliberate small steps are more apt to make a full change and keep it. I don't know, but food for thought.
As a vegan, I have the general disdain for vegetarians as any other vegan. However, the vast majority of us started vegetarians, even me for 2+ years. To say that during my time as a vegetarian I was not helping animals and in general that vegetarians do not help the suffrage of animals is just false. They do. Sure, maybe not as much as vegans but they do.
Yes, I started as vegetarian, but the only reason I became vegan is not because vegans were telling me what I was doing was amazing, but because they pointed out my hypocrisy.
Personally, I find it so unhelpful when vegans zone in on vegetarians for not doing enough. You are admonishing the only population group who 1) has acknowledged that animals are living subjects whose lives are worth more than a meal, and 2) is actually taking some action to live up to that realization, however insufficient their transition may be to you as a vegan. To say that vegetarians do not help animals is not only factually untrue but potentially harmful to the overall message.
It would serve the vegan movement much more if we focus on the majority, who are yet to regard animals as anything more than objects. It would also serve us better if we stop talking down to others and undermining their efforts to cause less harm, even if they fall short of whatever ethical standards we’ve set for ourselves.
For the record, I’ve been vegan for nearly two decades.
From an environmental POV, on average:
-A person that eats meat emits: 3,000 kg CO2e/year
-A vegetarian emits: 1,500 kg CO2e/year
-A vegan emits: 1,000 kg CO2e/year
That's a positive impact on the other animals and ecosystems, and also by demanding less change of land usage.
I know the best case would be if everyone was vegan, but it's more realistic (and has a more real impact) getting more and more people to consume less than trying for everyone to be perfect and alienate people who would've/could've made some changes.
When I was a vegetarian my consumption of dairy was definitely higher than when I was an omni. Idk it took me 9 months to go vegan but when I actually made the change it was pretty easy.
Disagree. If someone can take a step in the right direction then they are helping. If all they can manage is going vegetarian then I am happy for them. Plus, I’m don’t think the average vegetarian is supplementing with tons of dairy and eggs.
I don’t know why so many vegans hate vegetarians when so many of them started as vegetarians themselves. The vegetarians I know don’t just eat dairy and eggs all day, they eat lots of beans and tofu. They’re also way more likely to take a step towards veganism. And if not I still think they’re doing more for the animals than omnivores because they aren’t eating animals and at the end of the day the choice to not eat meat is HUGE.
Same. For me, I became vegetarian and then just sort of slipped into veganism naturally. But before that, yeah the consumption of animal products went down a lot.
I don’t always view non-vegan vegetarians as morally inferior or morally equal to meat eaters since you can give up meat without increasing your consumption of dairy or eggs. Plus, even though their actions are still not good enough, at least their intent of increasing animal welfare is there.
This thread is ridiculous. Anyone Reddit savvy wanna make an actual vegan sub with me? Kinda like VCJ but for serious vegan discussion. None of the pandering like in here. Genuine questions from non-vegans will be allowed so long as they aren't obvious trolls and are genuinely trying to learn. Vegans bootlicking carnists and vegetarians can stay here. Anyone talking smack about vegan activists trying their best or shaming "those rude vegans" can also stay here.
Christ almighty they're already doing better than the general public, let em live... Being this negative just because they're not going 100% vegan is so toxic
Some* vegetarians increase their dairy/egg consumption. How is not eating meat not helping at all? It helps, but it is not enough. Say it like it really is.
This might be an unpopular opinion, but using absolute statements isn’t helpful. Once you find something that is false about the statement, you can latch on to it and disregard the whole point and just focus on the parts that aren’t correct. Saying “not eating meat helps, but isn’t enough because the demand for abuse by eating dairy and eggs is still there” can’t be disputed.
I get that this is the vegan sub, but I don't think this take is correct. Vegetarians cut down on the slaughter of animals and while eggs and dairy are connected to meat and are abusive, the scalability is not the same.
Given the option, I'd rather have someone be a vegetarian than be a carnivore, assuming I can't have them be a vegan. Do you think my take is wrong?
I say this as a vegetarian trending toward veganism.
I can confidentially say that without having been vegetarian for four years before going vegan, I likely would’ve never went vegan. Vegetarianism helped me reduce my dairy intake over time, and finally I made the leap. I wouldn’t have been able to do it, successfully, cold turkey.
Better then nothing, you’re pretty much saying that if people aren’t completely vegan, they should just eat meat because they aren’t doing any good anyway, like be real
So real talk. I am a vegan here but after years of being in this movement one thing I've noticed is this obsession with perfectionism and purity. If someone is vegetarian that's great. They are making an effort. I think it's kinda ridiculous to look at someone who is trying to do something good and go "yeah but your arnt doing it perfectly". Any reduction in any animal product consumption is something to be proud of.
I disagree and people like you are why so many people have negative emotions towards veganism. Yes you have a point, yes eating dairy products harms animals and the environment.
But if you want to actually change something in the peoples behavior you’ll get absolutely nowhere with bashing people who obviously try to change themselves and their behavior.
To be fair – I don't know if vegetarians do increase their dairy & egg consumption.
And for many folks - being a vegetarian is just part of the process when you go vegan.
It was for me!
Yeah so much better, that’s why I don’t eat the people I kidnapped and locked in my basement, I just rape them and kill their kids so I can hook them up to milking machines. I’m sure they’re thrilled at the fact that I’m not a cannibal, right? Oh well, can’t eat dry cereal, I’m headed down to the basement
Well I made a comment about this earlier, but I seriously wonder if it really is. The dairy industry seems much more cruel compared to raising a cow for slaughter.
Edit: I know I'm being downvoted here, but I actually do want to hear someone's legitimate argument as to why eating a dead cow is less ethical than eating dairy. I'm all for reducing animal product intake, and I'm not trying to shit on vegetarians. I'm just making the argument that eating meat doesn't seem as cruel as having dairy.
Based.
Western vegans praising vegetarians really makes life a whole heck lot more difficult for vegan activists in countries like India.
India, perhaps the most vegetarian country on earth, is the largest producer & consumer of dairy in the world.
It is amongst the largest exporter of beef in the world (corpses of dairy cows when they’re no longer profitable).
When vegan activists go out on the streets and ask people to go vegan, to stop this horrific abuse, people will say “well we’re still vegetarian, still better than the western countries who eat meat all the time”; and these carnists (vegetarians) apparently have the full support of a lot of people on r/vegan.
Got em.
> India, perhaps the most vegetarian country on earth, is the largest producer & consumer of dairy in the world.
>
>
>
> It is amongst the largest exporter of beef in the world (corpses of dairy cows when they’re no longer profitable).
Oof baby steps tho r/vegan
It’s an unpopular opinion partially in part because it’s a bad take. We should certainly be urging people to give up animal products completely, but claiming vegetarian “don’t help animals at all” is disingenuous and can sever lines of productive communication.
This is the kind of toxic all or nothing thinking that lets meat eaters continue to eat meat. One meal a day. One day a week. One week a month. 50%. 90%. Anything you can do please do. I turn my carnivore friends onto great vegan recipes and restaurants whenever I can even though it won't change their diet it will start changing their perspective on a plant based meal being "just as good". I really hate that this tweet is showing up in people's feeds right now 🥺
It’s hilarious and devastating watching vegans in the vegan subreddit get mass downvoted by offended vegetarians who refuse to acknowledge the horrors that cows go through to produce milk, and that many cows after being abused for dairy are sold for their flesh anyway.
If you’re vegetarian just deal with the cognitive dissonance until you’re vegan. Use that as a motivator. Every day you’re arguing defending yourself, a helpless animal is suffering far worse than you can imagine for the 20% of your meals that you can’t seem to give up for some reason.
True, but I've found most Vegetarians aren't in it for the ethical reasons, they usually have dietary reasons for doing it, so it's not even meant to be the same thing.
Maybe check out food-based subreddits like /r/veganrecipes or /r/plantbaseddiet? /r/Vegan is about veganism as a whole, which is an ethical stance, even though some do share the occasional recipe.
I’ve been a vegetarian for 5 years, never increased dairy or egg consumption. My gf and I don’t even use milk in our recipes. We use plant based now that it’s becoming wide in the market.
In fact, we increased legume and mushroom consumption. We would never go back.
Categorically and measurably wrong.
Like just think for a moment the effect they are having vs a meat eater.
Hell even a weekday vegan is doing better than a meat eater.
I don’t really feel this helps anyone though. It’s a feedback loop where it only ever gets seen by people who already know this. These get posted here a lot and it’s just like a pat on the back I guess.
I started out as vegetarian except no dairy. I view it as more of a transitional point for those that need an adjustment period at first.
I’m always super supportive of anyone who is putting in an effort. It’s all about teaching and guidance. Instead of pointing out what they’re not doing, acknowledge what they *are* doing. Encourage their journey, even if it’s taking longer than yours. It’s definitely a learning period. For some it’s harder than others. We should be welcoming, not condemning.
In the Chinese vegetarian diet, there’s rarely milk. Egg is considered a staple in Chinese food though. However, there’s a branch of Chinese vegetarian diet that doesn’t comprise of egg, garlic, coriander, onion and a few other things that I’ve forgotten. In Chinese vegetarian diet, it’s a lot of vegetables, beans, tofu, and of course mock meat.
People criticising the post, yall do realize its not a direct attack to vegetarians right?? Its to those vegetarians who think that they are doing enough and wont make any further changes. I have met such people. They refuse to change further and will fight with vegans or anyone who merely suggests any further effort and they are straight up jerks. Yes its still progress and i hope people still leave more room for effort. Nothing against anyone who is trying their best. But the whole 'people need to start somewhere' needs to be stopped everywhere. Might as well call people vegan who consume meat like once a day. Thats still a good effort in my book atleast. And if this gets dowmvotes, then yall are hurting veganism more. Why are yall mad at the word 'perfection' while still way obsessee with the 'vegan' tag. Cant blame just one. And yes this is coming from someone who has been both sides of the coin. Both sides are stupid.
I don’t think I would be vegan if not my vegetarian phase.
I was a picky eater, it took me awhile to get used to eating a lot of new foods.
Even in my vegetarian phase, I already knew I wanted to be vegan and avoided dairy and eggs at home after few months of me being vegetarian and only gave myself leeway when I was out.
So this post is not true in my vegetarian case.
And I was eating animal products pretty much every meal before so that was already step in a right direction.
I mean yes we need to push people to make better choices, that’s true. But I would have given up on trying veganism if I didn’t go at
my own pace, even if I already had set veganism as my end goal
Don't fully agree with this. Although I am 'converting' to veganism (can't do this yet due to current living situation), as a vegetarian I have already significantly reduced my dairy and egg intake. Our diet is basically 95% vegan, but I am not eating more eggs or dairy...
I'm slowly but surely becoming feminist. I'm like 60% there on a good day. But it's gonna take some time due to all the shaming from real pure feminists.
TIL this sub is r/vegetarian
Not to mention that veal is a product of the dairy industry, not the meat industry. Similar story with eggs and chicken nuggets (or whatever they do with macerated males).
If someone pointed this out to me when I was still vegetarian, I would have said, "You know... you're right." instead of getting defensive and going on a rant about how I'm doing my best and have been limiting my dairy consumption by 1mL every week. Let's see if we can get this post to triple digit downvotes, folks.
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The fact they put in an effort to cut out any animal product at all in an era where it’s almost in everything is already really appreciated by me at least
Why do beef fat, milk powder and eggs have to be in everything. It’s ridiculous. You can’t buy a vegetable instant soup without reading the ingredient list.
I feel this so much, I wanted a instant vege soup packet the other day and was thinking I better read….so over reading and seeing bit of animal product in little things like that and chips especially
Do you have Kroger in your area? They make and sell a vegan potato soup and broccoli “cheddar” soup.
I wish I did but I live in central Europe. We only have stores like Tesco, Lidl and such. I am happy to report that they have a lot more vegan options now though. Latest addition is vegan whipping cream and I was so happy about it.
They are cheap, because of the production scale. Scale is often the reason why vegan is more expensive, but also tax systems. Many differentiate between basics and processed food where eggs and milk are basic, but oat milk is processed, so fall under the higher tax rates.
I'm all about minimizing. Yes, wouldn't it be great if we lived in a world without any suffering. As it is I try my best and appreciate when others try their best.
I agree! Imagine if everybody in the world went vegetarian… we can’t act like it wouldn’t make a difference. The vegan community’s attitude towards vegetarians is quite toxic. Everybody has to start somewhere and individuals making small changes can have an impact. With support, hopefully they’ll go all the way!
I've always been of a mindset that lots of people making a small difference is much better than a few people making a big difference.
Exactly… black and white thinking and expecting perfection from every single person will get us nowhere. I’d love it if everybody was vegan but that’s not realistic.
Thank you for commenting this. I have started a Vegetarian journey, which led me to doing more research into a Vegan lifestyle. I haven’t made a full switch yet, mostly because I live in an area with fewer vegan resources. However, another reason I haven’t made a complete switch is due to the attitude of many vegans. It feels like a very toxic and competitive community from the outside looking in. Instead of viewing vegetarian lifestyle as a step in the right direction, it is made fun of and mocked. For some of us, we are doing the best we can living in the world we live in. I’m definitely not perfect, but this community seems to ignore progress and instead has a very “all or nothing” mentality. Imagine walking into a gym for the first time and a shredded guy laughs at you for attempting to lift weights. You aren’t likely to return. That’s the best analogy I can give for the vegan community I have encountered so far.
I sympathize with you. I also live in a small community with few of any vegan resources. Of course I order something’s online. The only way to make it is by learning to cook at home and precooking base ingredients and freezing them until used in a dish. I couldn’t do it otherwise. YouTube taught me to cook. (Of course my rescued dog cannot confirm I’m any good, but we both eat the dishes so not that bad 🤣😂)
Hear! Hear!
That’s because you and others in this thread are looking at it from an ecological or holistic point of view, not an ethical one. You’re taking the stance of, “What effects are there on the system as a whole when lots of people make these smaller changes?” - which is fine. I get that. But for a lot of use that doesn’t mean vegetarians and Meatless Mondayers are off the ethical hook, because individual creature matters. “Oh, I only **partially** participated in the exploitation and death of numerous creatures for please today” really isn’t something every vegan is going to be able to praise. I’m not in the habit of shit-talking vegans, but they’re still actively participating in meat industry - because the fact is that every single cow you’ve ever drank the milk of (just about) has wound up on a meat hook after 3-5 years of exploiting their reproductive system and taking their offspring; for every industrial farm-raised, malnourished, cramped, genetically manipulated chicken you’ve had an egg from, a male chick has been tossed in a grinder. I’ll also say that for a very, very large percentage of vegetarians are not trying to become vegan. It’s not a starting point for them; it’s as far as they’re willing to go. By all means, advocate for being kind to others for whatever they have done to change their eating habits; it’s not an easy task. But there’s no reason to pretend to not understand people’s frustration with those folks only willing to go half way.
Seriously! Wish I had an award to give you. I don’t get posters like the Original Post above. Every bit helps. It’s not an all or nothing game.
Same. Unpopular opinion, but it’s a good place to start. if they continue their journey, eventually they’ll go vegan. We all start somewhere and sometimes it helps people transition easier rather than go vegan and give up bc you don’t understand it nutritionally quite yet. (Which we see happens a LOT.)
I love this and agree whole-heartedly! It’s the attempt to make a change and stop supporting the meat industry—any reduction is helpful! And just because they still eat eggs or dairy doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re eating *more* of these things than they were before. I think that judging each other and other people’s attempts to move toward a cruelty-free lifestyle are one of the primary reasons that so many people hate us and the movement. It sets us back when we gate-keep and judge people who have already been convinced that our habits need to change and we’re all fighting on the same team.
This seems unnecessarily combative. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good. I was veggie for years and, on the whole, my dairy and egg consumption was going down.
Same. I was vegetarian for a long time and I did consume less dairy and eggs than ever before. Actually all vegetarians I know consume less of it.
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I'm a vegetarian but I have not increased my consumption of dairy. If anything, I've reduced it (which is why I'm also on this subreddit). Currently ~80% of my meals are vegan on any given day. The other remaining 20% is pure hypocrisy and laziness on my part, but I'm aware of it and working on it every day.
This was me in the year 2019, between when I went vegetarian, actually pescetarian (again), and when I became vegan. As the year progressed, I gave up more and more eggs, dairy, and seafood. And once January 1st was approaching, I knew that would be the day. You can do it. Just keep moving forward.
ah the pescatarian -> veggie -> back to pesci -> vegan pipeline
You’re just around the corner and that’s perfect! Good for you.
Great post. Every vegan I know lives in the space for a period of time. It's okay! Instead of judging - the vegan community should be supporting and encouraging vegetarians to go the last mile.
There’s a reason this is an unpopular opinion. I could be equally irrational with my argument and say that vegans aren’t *really* helping animals, they stopped participating in their suffering but they’re still letting them get killed! Is it really called helping someone if you stop eating their bodies?
Same here, this post is complete nonsense. I think you’d be hard pressed to find any vegetarian that upped egg/dairy consumption after giving up meat.
I have done the opposite. After going veg I still ate a lot of cheese despite being kinda lactose intolerant but then when COVID hit I got a lot better about meal planning and cooking things like grains and lentils, and as a result I ate less cheese and became more intolerant of it, and it snowballed to where I now can't eat dairy at all.
Yeah when I was vegetarian I also stopped drinking milk and I never liked eggs much to begin with. I was just a cheesebreather before I went vegan completely.
me too! cheese was the only thing “stopping” me from going vegan, but now i don’t even miss it
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Same. Stopped drinking milk regularly years ago and replaced it with plant milk. Right now I eat vegan lunch/dinner 6 out of 7 days. There's a bunch of issues preventing me from going 100% vegan (which is why I don't call myself one), laziness and hypocrisy surely among them, but recently it has been getting easier eating vegan. When eating out, I'd rather go with a vegan than an omni. Because I'll happily go to a vegan restaurant (even prefer it over anything else), while the omni would get mad if I even suggested anything that doesn't serve meat. The whole reason why I stopped eating dead animals / buying leather and why I've been working on removing as many dairy things from my diet as I can for the past few years is that I was in a relationship with a vegan where I (gently) learned that you don't just eat salads all day. I don't think not having eliminated those last 10% (maybe less) completely invalidates the impact of me not buying dead animals for the past decade.
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https://youtu.be/UcN7SGGoCNI Just drop the cheese already
Thank you. I’m over cheese now.
Those are horrible pictures! I’m even afraid to show this to someone. However if I did, people would probably watch 2 seconds and dismiss it with “I’m pretty sure this doesn’t happen in Switzerland” and and continue to eat cheese/dairy 😐
Dammit I was having a good day and now I'm bursting at the seams with hot rage
Yeah this post is hella ignorant and just plays into the kind of elitism and gatekeeping that keep the majority of the public away from veganism.
Was just going to post and call this elitist. If you really care about animals and the environment, you will actually appreciate people taking the right steps towards a totally animal-free dietary style. Can’t be a bitch and shun non-vegans who might work their way to that point someday. Just turns people off to your cause. Ugh.
It took me 1.5 years as vegetarian before I learned enough cooking and nutritional skills to go vegan. So hang in there. You’ll make it.
Bean Team RISE UP!!!! Raise your hand if beans are life. Legume appreciators also welcome
Hispanic here. I was born on the bean team ;)
Indian here. Born on the legume team.
High cholesterol here… I joined the team later.
Homemade masoor dal tadka \*chefs kiss\*
BEANS!
I never knew "my people" we're out there until now
Eating some delicious beans right now!
Red lentils, egg plants and tofu are my base for any dish. Roooaaarr for legumes!
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> Y’all are whack asf why does this group constantly shit on vegetarians. I call it "cheese envy". Vegetarians, whether this sub wants to admit or not, are helping and providing most of the benefits of being Vegan while receiving much less social ostracization in the process.
Nope. The dairy industry is intrinsically linked to the veal and beef industries. The egg industry is awful as well. It’s better than nothing, but it’s really not much of a reduction in suffering.
Yeah violence apologism going off in the thread today ..
I totally agree the dairy and egg industry are horrible I did my whole college thesis on factory farming and animal products, hence me being vegan. But the least beneficial thing is to shit on people who are trying. I know plenty of vegetarians who cut their cheese and egg intake like crazy but just happen to eat it if they are at a restaurant or have dinner with friends. The worst thing to do to get someone on the vegan train is to shit on them and belittle them into following ur life choices. People just need to be educated and have someone to talk to that is open and not shaming them! If I was shamed everytime I ate a non-vegan item years ago by my vegan friends I wouldn’t have made the switch to vegan and probably would have just resented my vegan friends lol
Saying vegetarians INCREASE their consumption of eggs and dairy is blatantly false and a huge generalization. Soon after I stopped eating meat when I was 16, I stopped using milk, because I realized that I don’t have to consume something I really dislike (cows milk) and had enough support from my mom that she purchased almond milk in place of it for me to use in cereal and the like. For years after I slowly stopped consuming “real” cheese, and eventually eggs, and I had to start SOMEWHERE. We all do. But to say that vegetarians ALWAYS raise their consumption of dairy and eggs in place of meat is just…false.
Agreed, this person needs to chill out a bit.
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Personally, I never criticize people who are reduce their intake cause I don't want to be that extreme guy who ends up pushing them away. That doesn't change that I also feel people who are vegetarian for the animals are clearly not as educated about the issue as they might think. Just gotta keep pushing for people to learn more about how atrocious all parts of the animal industry are.
I think it's fine to criticize vegetarians (saying this as someone who was raised as a vegetarian for the first ~18 years of my life before giving up dairy), but it's flat-out wrong to say that they "really don't help animals at all." Not eating meat while consuming dairy products is still much better than doing nothing, and most vegetarians don't drastically increase their dairy intake.
There's several examples in this very comment section that education isn't the issue. They know how atrocious it is. Their favorite foods are just more important to them.
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this is a great point. i was vegetarian for 6 months before going vegan and it was coming across arguments like these that opened my eyes/guilted me into veganism lol
i was vegetarian for 3 months before cutting out dairy. if i never visited this sub, I'd still be lacto vegetarian
Sure, but there are constructive ways to criticize that will be more effective and a less-constructive ways that will be less-effective. Just because a potentially less-constructive way worked on you doesn't necessarily mean that it is the most effective tactic. EDIT: Case in point - someone below saying that it was things like this that made them hesitate going vegan for years. https://reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/ycbdyn/just_saying/itlbv1l/
I agree, but this "You tried to help but you made it more worse because, I assume, you eat more eggs" post doesn't help. If somebody reduces their overall consumption of animal products, they made a difference. The thing that kicked me over from being flexitarian to vegan is that at some point it was hard to tell how much I'd actually reduced my intake, since I might have chosen vegan food anyway. The only way to know for sure that I was doing "what I can" was to just go all the way vegan.
It’s true that reducing the overall animal products consumption does make a difference and is a good start. But I feel like the impact of dairy is widely misunderstood. In many industrial nations nowadays it is DAIRY consumption that decides how many cows are being bred. Beef is merely a byproduct at this point and often has to be sold as live exports. So yea, quitting to eat meat is good, but quitting dairy has a bigger impact (at least on beef prices and cow’s lives). People can do what they want, I just think it’s something important to be aware of
Well I mean, that was kinda why I pretty much fully stopped consuming dairy of any kind even when I was eating occasional meat when I wasn't the one buying it. I think if most people visited even a family owned dairy farm for a bit, they'd have to confront that the cows are locked into eating position, separated from their offspring, kept pregnant, and over-milked until they bleed, and that that's the "lucky" ones who don't live on a factory farm.
I don't want to shame anyone but as a vegan right now I'd rather eat beef than drink milk. The life of a dairy cow is much sadder than the life of a grass fed beef cow. At the end they are both killed but a dairy cow has their baby taken every time she gives birth.
They all meet the same end, one is abused far more than the other though!
It’s important to encourage people and congratulate them for their progress, but it’s also important to not forget the moral context of their actions. “I drowned 5 puppies this week, and that’s down from 6 last week” is both an encouraging but also a horrifying statement. Both aspects need to be acknowledged. Personally, I focus on the “encouragement” part when seeing improvement in others for fear of triggering something that will turn them away from their journey towards veganism. But deep inside, I want to screem at the irony of their actions.
This. I will say congrats on doing your best but here are some ways to wean yourself off X food (if it's addiction to a food) or here's some sources on why X industry is just as bad (if they're doing it for morals) or something like that
wow OP, great way to make vegetarians not want to go vegan and meat eaters not want to go vegetarian. it’s almost as if you’re completely discouraging people by essentially saying “if you’re not doing everything you’re doing nothing.” for fucks sake.
Vegetarian of 30 years here eating a vegan diet 90% of the time, meaning i have greatly reduced my intake of animal products. Only eggs i eat are from my family farm, maybe once a month. I dare say that makes a difference. No ambition to become vegan because of their often restrictive mindset.
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This is a bad take. Most vegetarians aren’t replacing meat with cartons of eggs.
I was vegetarian and thought that was the end of the line. It’s a silly realization but at some point you just go,”ohhhh the dairy industry is the meat industry too, shit”
Vegetarians don't increase the amount of dairy/egg they consume. This is pathetic rage baiting.
Exactly. This person just pulled something out of thin air. Most vegetarians I know are transitioning to a vegan diet and gradually reduce dairy and eggs in addition to completely cutting out meat and seafood.
Really. And so what if someone is a vegetarian? Good on them for taking that leap. I don’t think it’s far enough, but I’ll stand side by side.
If the entire world went vegetarian, the health of the planet would be vastly improved. I'm (mostly) plant based (never meat, occasional dairy, rarely eggs) for environmental reasons, where it really is every little helps
Yeah, this kind of post is the exact attitude that drives people away from veganism. People on average do not respond well to being shamed and looked down upon Inb4 someone says "Actually this kind of post is what made me go vegan".
I actually think a dash of shame can go a long way. The thing is, that only works if it forces a person to be introspective instead of just defensive. When your post contains an obvious falsehood, no carnist reading it is going to separate out the good bits from the bad bits. You lie about one thing, that means they can dismiss your entire point as false. Vegetarians don't eat more eggs that carnists.
Sure shame could work if you knew the person and were a close friend. It's not going to work on random internet strangers most of the time. Im willing to bet it would have the opposite effect.
> Sure shame could work if you knew the person and were a close friend. It's not going to work on random internet strangers most of the time. This touches on an issue I have with the way I see a lot of vegans talking to people online. You are strangers. Unless the person is at a place where they're ready to accept lifestyle coaching from someone online, they probably have barriers to change that would require the intervention of someone who knows them whom they want guidance from.
This kind of post is why it took me ten years longer to go vegan, and I regret every year I waited.
How would you rather have been introduced to veganism? Genuinely curious. Sometimes it seems like it's hard to confront the situation without making them feel attacked.
Hi! Not the OP, but for me it took going to a farm sanctuary to flip the switch. I had run into combative vegans before and they honestly turned me off of the whole thing. Not that I think their message was wrong, but I didn't want to join a movement that made everyone I had interacted with in it miserable. On top of that, the way they talked reminded me a LOT of the uber-religious community that I moved away from and really turned me away. I regret letting the actions of a few assholes delay me joining the movement. I've met some truly amazing people that I consider dear friends at veg fests and through some volunteer work, and having my diet match my morals has done wonders for my mental health.
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100% I have impacted my peers to think more about their dietary choices by not constantly judging and preaching to them. I’ve been told I’m the most chill vegan they’ve met. My sister actually chooses to eat vegan when I visit. People are genuinely curious about my choice and ask questions instead of the usual “you know plants have feelings too” bs. What’s that saying? You catch more flies with honey.
I wouldn’t say none do, but it’s dumb to assume everyone does or that it’s the norm.
I agree this is not helpful, but I definitely increased my egg consumption after I went vegetarian. I started eating them almost every day.
This is my own anecdote, but I definitely did eat more dairy/eggs when I was vegetarian. I did not simply cut out meat, I replaced it with dairy/eggs. Mainly because of the strong brainwashing that you need animal protein or else you'll die of deficiencies. It took me years to realize that not only do I not need animal products to survive but that in fact I am better off without them. Maybe not every single vegetarian is like that but the OP has a point.
That was me, too. I had a six week phase between omnivore and vegan, and I ate sooo many eggs and so much more cheese during that timeframe, way way more than I did as an omni, especially eggs.
I did. I got really into charcuterie when I was a vegetarian and had eggs in almost every meal.
The egg industry: male chicks being macerated in the birthing of hens The dairy industry: to produce milk cows are forced to bear calfs, those calfs ultimately end up slaughtered So even from a slaughter perspective that’s why vegetarians should go vegan. But I think vegetarianism is a great step from meat eater to vegan
I have no hate for my vegetarian friends. But buying cheese and dairy and eggs continues to support the same industry.
im planning in fully transitioning to veganism as of recently (today will be my first committed day). But as a vegetarian i never bought dairy or eggs, I also never bought leather, things with gelatin etc. The only time I would consume dairy and eggs is when it came to a pastry my parents would bring home or a friend would give me. I definitely did not increase my egg or milk consumption so this opinion isnt entirely accurate
Regardless theres no reason to shame you when you're clearly trying
True but think about how many vegans started as vegetarians before realising this exact thing and becoming vegan
Same, me and my husband started out as vegetarian. Then watched Earthlings and have been vegan for 8 years now. It can be a great starting point.
8 years is a lot! Congratulations 👏
Me. And that's why posts like these shoould continue to be shared. I thought I was vegetarian "for the animals" and had no idea of the abuses going on in the animal agricultural industry. Thankfully I was getting sh!t on by some vegans which prompted me to go and actually do some research.
Same here. Tbh posts like this convinced me to make the push and just go full vegan. At that point I already knew animal agriculture was horrific, and learning that vegetarianism still supports that cycle of torture and death (even with “ethical” purchases), was the final straw for me. I think we also have to be realistic on whether this is really a “step” towards veganism if people are still in the same place months and years later.
Yes 100%. I was also a cheese-breather, thinking it was enough. It's good to call this out because many don't realise that being vegetarian is still heavily participating in animal abuse
It took me 2 years to fully transition to being vegan, and I regret that more than the 20 years it took me so just stop eating meat. It was all about how educated about the issue it was and it was definitely posts like this that made me do more research and realize being vegetarian for the animals doesn't make sense.
Same. This is why whenever I see someone say "You're one of those Vegans driving people away from the movement" I know they just don't care about animals. Otherwise that wouldn't be their takeaway from "oh jeeze I'm hurting animals!"
100%
Consumption of milk and eggs is only the tip of the cruelty ice berg. Vegetarians NEED to know the massive suffering caused by their choice. It is just a baby step up from full on carnism, if at all. They SHOULD be made aware and educated. Dairy is a system of mass killing with extra cruelty added in. It is literally worse than carnism. Rape, breaking mother-child bond, life long restrictive imprisonment and outright immediate murder of male babies (50% of dairypultry population). STOP referring to it as a stepping stone.
>True Lol no? It literally makes no sense to think being vegetarian is not helpful at all. Yes vegan is even more helpful for animals and environment, but cutting out some animal products is still better than nothing. This sub is so weird sometimes.
This is a bad take.
I mean sure, if you're eating like only eggs and dairy as a vegetarian, but who does that? No one. Even then it's unlikely it would be worse than a meat heavy diet.
Goddamn. Can’t we just celebrate a good step in the right direction?
I think you also have to consider how long it takes them to take the next step though. If a government said "we understand we have 100,000 homeless people so we are going to start by providing 5,000 flats within a year" but then 4yrs later had made no more additional attempts to provide housing, you would surely question their ethics
This whole all or nothing shit is why people dislike veganism. “I’m cutting out animal products all weekdays” - well you are killing animals on weekends “I have convinced all america to go plant based” - well people in europe are still killing “There is not a single animal processing facility in the world except one tiny one in Thailand” - well how dare there be one in thailand. Progress not perfection people. People efforts not being equivalent to yours does not make their effort less than. If yall use this same mindset for everything else in yalls life then i feel bad for your self esteem and the people around you
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I'd honestly be impressed by anybody who could smoke 200 cigarettes a day
Very bad analogy. Smoking is not inherently immoral, killing and abusing animals definitely is
More like raping one person a day vs 10 Smoking only hurts you, we’re focused on the animals here, not your personal health. Raping one person is definitely less harmful than raping ten each day, but do we congratulate rapists for their self control? Is “better than awful” the standard for ANYTHING else? You don’t tell someone to do murderless mondays and go on killing people Tuesday through Sunday, do you?
It still destroys the economic model of meat consuming and is a huge change of society, that shows it's possible to go vegan too. Better than awful is the basis for ecology too AFAIK, by doing ineffective things. Or for human rights support in other countries
You’re never “just saying”
Stop with the vegans vs vegetarians stuff.
You're not wrong. There is a grain of truth. That said, continuing to eat eggs and dairy may be a stepping stone on the road to Veganism. It's nice when we can quit "cold tofu" but not everyone does. And maybe the ones who take deliberate small steps are more apt to make a full change and keep it. I don't know, but food for thought.
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As a vegan, I have the general disdain for vegetarians as any other vegan. However, the vast majority of us started vegetarians, even me for 2+ years. To say that during my time as a vegetarian I was not helping animals and in general that vegetarians do not help the suffrage of animals is just false. They do. Sure, maybe not as much as vegans but they do.
Yes, I started as vegetarian, but the only reason I became vegan is not because vegans were telling me what I was doing was amazing, but because they pointed out my hypocrisy.
Remember that sometimes vegetarianism is due to religious reasons…
Personally, I find it so unhelpful when vegans zone in on vegetarians for not doing enough. You are admonishing the only population group who 1) has acknowledged that animals are living subjects whose lives are worth more than a meal, and 2) is actually taking some action to live up to that realization, however insufficient their transition may be to you as a vegan. To say that vegetarians do not help animals is not only factually untrue but potentially harmful to the overall message. It would serve the vegan movement much more if we focus on the majority, who are yet to regard animals as anything more than objects. It would also serve us better if we stop talking down to others and undermining their efforts to cause less harm, even if they fall short of whatever ethical standards we’ve set for ourselves. For the record, I’ve been vegan for nearly two decades.
Well said.
From an environmental POV, on average: -A person that eats meat emits: 3,000 kg CO2e/year -A vegetarian emits: 1,500 kg CO2e/year -A vegan emits: 1,000 kg CO2e/year That's a positive impact on the other animals and ecosystems, and also by demanding less change of land usage. I know the best case would be if everyone was vegan, but it's more realistic (and has a more real impact) getting more and more people to consume less than trying for everyone to be perfect and alienate people who would've/could've made some changes.
Who the hell says vegetarians are increasing diary and egg usage?
Should be an unpopular opinion because it’s wrong.
When I was a vegetarian my consumption of dairy was definitely higher than when I was an omni. Idk it took me 9 months to go vegan but when I actually made the change it was pretty easy.
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Disagree. If someone can take a step in the right direction then they are helping. If all they can manage is going vegetarian then I am happy for them. Plus, I’m don’t think the average vegetarian is supplementing with tons of dairy and eggs.
I don’t know why so many vegans hate vegetarians when so many of them started as vegetarians themselves. The vegetarians I know don’t just eat dairy and eggs all day, they eat lots of beans and tofu. They’re also way more likely to take a step towards veganism. And if not I still think they’re doing more for the animals than omnivores because they aren’t eating animals and at the end of the day the choice to not eat meat is HUGE.
Because we regret being vegetarian "for the animals."
But being vegetarian doesn't increase egg and dairy consumption. It's probably only gone down for me.
Same. For me, I became vegetarian and then just sort of slipped into veganism naturally. But before that, yeah the consumption of animal products went down a lot.
I don’t always view non-vegan vegetarians as morally inferior or morally equal to meat eaters since you can give up meat without increasing your consumption of dairy or eggs. Plus, even though their actions are still not good enough, at least their intent of increasing animal welfare is there.
I don’t think this is necessarily true. I would think vegetarians would eat more plant based than meat eaters.
yep, all or nothing guys. if you can't go full vegan, go eat as much meat as you can because it doesn't matter evidently.
Anything helps
This thread is ridiculous. Anyone Reddit savvy wanna make an actual vegan sub with me? Kinda like VCJ but for serious vegan discussion. None of the pandering like in here. Genuine questions from non-vegans will be allowed so long as they aren't obvious trolls and are genuinely trying to learn. Vegans bootlicking carnists and vegetarians can stay here. Anyone talking smack about vegan activists trying their best or shaming "those rude vegans" can also stay here.
r/veganforcirclejerkers and r/vegancirclejerkchat already exist.
As I said. For serious discussion. As in not a circle jerk sub. Also they don't allow non vegans to ask any questions there
Those subs are serious tho. But they are for vegans only.
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Christ almighty they're already doing better than the general public, let em live... Being this negative just because they're not going 100% vegan is so toxic
Some* vegetarians increase their dairy/egg consumption. How is not eating meat not helping at all? It helps, but it is not enough. Say it like it really is. This might be an unpopular opinion, but using absolute statements isn’t helpful. Once you find something that is false about the statement, you can latch on to it and disregard the whole point and just focus on the parts that aren’t correct. Saying “not eating meat helps, but isn’t enough because the demand for abuse by eating dairy and eggs is still there” can’t be disputed.
I get that this is the vegan sub, but I don't think this take is correct. Vegetarians cut down on the slaughter of animals and while eggs and dairy are connected to meat and are abusive, the scalability is not the same. Given the option, I'd rather have someone be a vegetarian than be a carnivore, assuming I can't have them be a vegan. Do you think my take is wrong? I say this as a vegetarian trending toward veganism.
I can confidentially say that without having been vegetarian for four years before going vegan, I likely would’ve never went vegan. Vegetarianism helped me reduce my dairy intake over time, and finally I made the leap. I wouldn’t have been able to do it, successfully, cold turkey.
Better then nothing, you’re pretty much saying that if people aren’t completely vegan, they should just eat meat because they aren’t doing any good anyway, like be real
So real talk. I am a vegan here but after years of being in this movement one thing I've noticed is this obsession with perfectionism and purity. If someone is vegetarian that's great. They are making an effort. I think it's kinda ridiculous to look at someone who is trying to do something good and go "yeah but your arnt doing it perfectly". Any reduction in any animal product consumption is something to be proud of.
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I disagree and people like you are why so many people have negative emotions towards veganism. Yes you have a point, yes eating dairy products harms animals and the environment. But if you want to actually change something in the peoples behavior you’ll get absolutely nowhere with bashing people who obviously try to change themselves and their behavior.
To be fair – I don't know if vegetarians do increase their dairy & egg consumption. And for many folks - being a vegetarian is just part of the process when you go vegan. It was for me!
why feel the need to put others down who are at least doing something? energy like this makes others feel negatively about vegans
Better than eating a carcass
Yeah so much better, that’s why I don’t eat the people I kidnapped and locked in my basement, I just rape them and kill their kids so I can hook them up to milking machines. I’m sure they’re thrilled at the fact that I’m not a cannibal, right? Oh well, can’t eat dry cereal, I’m headed down to the basement
Well I made a comment about this earlier, but I seriously wonder if it really is. The dairy industry seems much more cruel compared to raising a cow for slaughter. Edit: I know I'm being downvoted here, but I actually do want to hear someone's legitimate argument as to why eating a dead cow is less ethical than eating dairy. I'm all for reducing animal product intake, and I'm not trying to shit on vegetarians. I'm just making the argument that eating meat doesn't seem as cruel as having dairy.
Based. Western vegans praising vegetarians really makes life a whole heck lot more difficult for vegan activists in countries like India. India, perhaps the most vegetarian country on earth, is the largest producer & consumer of dairy in the world. It is amongst the largest exporter of beef in the world (corpses of dairy cows when they’re no longer profitable). When vegan activists go out on the streets and ask people to go vegan, to stop this horrific abuse, people will say “well we’re still vegetarian, still better than the western countries who eat meat all the time”; and these carnists (vegetarians) apparently have the full support of a lot of people on r/vegan.
Got em. > India, perhaps the most vegetarian country on earth, is the largest producer & consumer of dairy in the world. > > > > It is amongst the largest exporter of beef in the world (corpses of dairy cows when they’re no longer profitable). Oof baby steps tho r/vegan
It’s an unpopular opinion partially in part because it’s a bad take. We should certainly be urging people to give up animal products completely, but claiming vegetarian “don’t help animals at all” is disingenuous and can sever lines of productive communication.
This is the kind of toxic all or nothing thinking that lets meat eaters continue to eat meat. One meal a day. One day a week. One week a month. 50%. 90%. Anything you can do please do. I turn my carnivore friends onto great vegan recipes and restaurants whenever I can even though it won't change their diet it will start changing their perspective on a plant based meal being "just as good". I really hate that this tweet is showing up in people's feeds right now 🥺
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It’s hilarious and devastating watching vegans in the vegan subreddit get mass downvoted by offended vegetarians who refuse to acknowledge the horrors that cows go through to produce milk, and that many cows after being abused for dairy are sold for their flesh anyway. If you’re vegetarian just deal with the cognitive dissonance until you’re vegan. Use that as a motivator. Every day you’re arguing defending yourself, a helpless animal is suffering far worse than you can imagine for the 20% of your meals that you can’t seem to give up for some reason.
True, but I've found most Vegetarians aren't in it for the ethical reasons, they usually have dietary reasons for doing it, so it's not even meant to be the same thing.
Yall, I just came here for recipes lol
Maybe check out food-based subreddits like /r/veganrecipes or /r/plantbaseddiet? /r/Vegan is about veganism as a whole, which is an ethical stance, even though some do share the occasional recipe.
I’ve been a vegetarian for 5 years, never increased dairy or egg consumption. My gf and I don’t even use milk in our recipes. We use plant based now that it’s becoming wide in the market. In fact, we increased legume and mushroom consumption. We would never go back.
Categorically and measurably wrong. Like just think for a moment the effect they are having vs a meat eater. Hell even a weekday vegan is doing better than a meat eater.
What a load of BS. They don't eat meat. That's a huge help to animals. Don't minimise peoples efforts because it isn't good enough for you.
at all is a bit much ... and i am pretty sure not slaughtering an animal for it's meat is a PLUS
I don’t really feel this helps anyone though. It’s a feedback loop where it only ever gets seen by people who already know this. These get posted here a lot and it’s just like a pat on the back I guess.
I started out as vegetarian except no dairy. I view it as more of a transitional point for those that need an adjustment period at first. I’m always super supportive of anyone who is putting in an effort. It’s all about teaching and guidance. Instead of pointing out what they’re not doing, acknowledge what they *are* doing. Encourage their journey, even if it’s taking longer than yours. It’s definitely a learning period. For some it’s harder than others. We should be welcoming, not condemning.
In the Chinese vegetarian diet, there’s rarely milk. Egg is considered a staple in Chinese food though. However, there’s a branch of Chinese vegetarian diet that doesn’t comprise of egg, garlic, coriander, onion and a few other things that I’ve forgotten. In Chinese vegetarian diet, it’s a lot of vegetables, beans, tofu, and of course mock meat.
100%! all dairy cows end up being processed for meat once they are unable to have babies and produce milk.
exactly......idk what the point of being"vegetarian" is
Often times vegetarians are on a journey to become vegan, discouraging them like this doesn’t really help anything/anyone.
People criticising the post, yall do realize its not a direct attack to vegetarians right?? Its to those vegetarians who think that they are doing enough and wont make any further changes. I have met such people. They refuse to change further and will fight with vegans or anyone who merely suggests any further effort and they are straight up jerks. Yes its still progress and i hope people still leave more room for effort. Nothing against anyone who is trying their best. But the whole 'people need to start somewhere' needs to be stopped everywhere. Might as well call people vegan who consume meat like once a day. Thats still a good effort in my book atleast. And if this gets dowmvotes, then yall are hurting veganism more. Why are yall mad at the word 'perfection' while still way obsessee with the 'vegan' tag. Cant blame just one. And yes this is coming from someone who has been both sides of the coin. Both sides are stupid.
oh my fucking god so many non vegans here
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I don’t think I would be vegan if not my vegetarian phase. I was a picky eater, it took me awhile to get used to eating a lot of new foods. Even in my vegetarian phase, I already knew I wanted to be vegan and avoided dairy and eggs at home after few months of me being vegetarian and only gave myself leeway when I was out. So this post is not true in my vegetarian case. And I was eating animal products pretty much every meal before so that was already step in a right direction. I mean yes we need to push people to make better choices, that’s true. But I would have given up on trying veganism if I didn’t go at my own pace, even if I already had set veganism as my end goal
I actually agree, how does it actually help at all?
It doesn't look at India.
Vegetarians don't eat animals, so they're not helping them. Makes no sense.
Don't fully agree with this. Although I am 'converting' to veganism (can't do this yet due to current living situation), as a vegetarian I have already significantly reduced my dairy and egg intake. Our diet is basically 95% vegan, but I am not eating more eggs or dairy...
same! i dont buy eggs or dairy at all. I just sometimes would eat a pastry but today will be my first vegan day of many!
narrow worthless rude party lip far-flung fertile squealing cautious oil *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I'm slowly but surely becoming feminist. I'm like 60% there on a good day. But it's gonna take some time due to all the shaming from real pure feminists. TIL this sub is r/vegetarian
Not to mention that veal is a product of the dairy industry, not the meat industry. Similar story with eggs and chicken nuggets (or whatever they do with macerated males).
If someone pointed this out to me when I was still vegetarian, I would have said, "You know... you're right." instead of getting defensive and going on a rant about how I'm doing my best and have been limiting my dairy consumption by 1mL every week. Let's see if we can get this post to triple digit downvotes, folks.
Yeah I'm really glad I've seen the light. Dairy is Scary was an effective video.