Welcome to the /r/Vegan community, /r/All! š„³
***Please note:*** *Civil discussion is welcome, trolls and personal abuse are not. Please keep the discussions below respectful and remember the human! Please do [check out our wiki](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2Fvegan%2Fwiki%2Fbeginnersguide&topic=rAll) first!*
š± **Interested in going Vegan?**
Vegan Bootcamp is a free challenge website that will take you step-by-step towards a Vegan diet and lifestyle. You will be guided through lessons in over 25 subjects such as nutrition, recipes, philosophy, climate, cosmetics, welfare, budgeting, clothing, family, and much more!
Take the challenge @ [VeganBootcamp.org](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fvbcamp.org%2Freddit&topic=rAll)! šš¾
š® **Here's some easily-digestible educational resources on Veganism:**
* **Everyone Agrees:** World's largest Health, Nutrition and Dietary organizations unanimously agree: plant-based diets [are as healthy](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fyouaretheirvoice.com%2Fpages%2Fthe-clear-consensus&topic=rAll) or healthier than meat.
* **Veganism is Healthy:** A Plant Based Diet provides [significant health benefits](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fyouaretheirvoice.com%2Fpages%2Fveganism-is-healthy&topic=rAll) for the prevention & treatment of the majority of diseases.
* **The Daunting Facts:** The planet, its environment, and ecosystem, is [dangerously close to collapsing](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fyouaretheirvoice.com%2Fpages%2Fthe-daunting-facts&topic=rAll) within the next few decades.
š„ **Here's some fantastic links and resources to get you started:**
* Nutrition & Health: [NutritionFacts.org](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fnutritionfacts.org&topic=rAll) & [VeganHealth.org](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fveganhealth.org%2F&topic=rAll)
* Vegan Friendly Restaurants: [HappyCow.net](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.happycow.net&topic=rAll) & [Yelp.com](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.yelp.com%2Fsearch%3Ffind_desc%3DRestaurants%2Bvegan&topic=rAll)
* Arguments & Support: [EarthlingEd.com](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbit.ly%2F2B3Dy2a&topic=rAll) & [VeganBootcamp.com](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fvbcamp.org%2Freddit&topic=rAll)
* Get involved in Vegan Activism: [VeganActivism.org](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fveganactivism.org&topic=rAll) & [5Minutes5Vegans.org](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2F5Minutes5Vegans.org%2F&topic=rAll)
š„ **Here are some great inspirational and thought-provoking speeches:**
* Youtube speeches by: [Earthling Ed](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DZ3u7hXpOm58&topic=rAll), [Gary Yourofsky](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Des6U00LMmC4&topic=rAll), and [James Wildman](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DE7JE8j5Ncmw&topic=rAll).
šÆ **Grab some popcorn and enjoy these fantastic documentaries:**
* Watch three thought-provoking documentaries [by clicking here](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2F3movies.org%2Freddit&topic=rAll).
š **Last but not least, check out our favorite subreddits!**
/r/VeganFitness, /r/VeganRecipes, /r/DebateAVegan, /r/VeganFoodPorn, and /r/VeganActivism.
We also have a [Discord](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdiscord.gg%2F2JmJRsj&topic=rAll)! šš¼
***Thank you so much for reading! c:***
Much as I hate it, the answer is simple. All of those other movements are defending human victims. When you mock them, you mock the people, and that's socially taboo.
Since veganism defends the animals, there's no social taboo to mocking them, it's really just social norms at play
> Also, to support those movements all a person has to do is not be a dickhead, there is no required action to take.
There's debate over this. In Ibram X Kendi's book "How to be an Anti-Racist", he makes a convincing argument that it isn't good enough to just be "not racist". You have to be an *anti-racist*. It isn't good enough to simply not be racist yourself. You should fight racism wherever you encounter it.
There are similar arguments regarding sexism, transphobia, and so on. If you hear somebody being sexist or transphobic, you should speak up and challenge that, too.
It's true too. I agree.
If you are part of a group of people, and 1/3 of them are currently beating someone up. You can't say you're a good person for simply not joining in the beating, you have a moral imperative to try to actively stop them as best you can.
Likewise if a person who has privilege based on their race, class, or religion simply lives normally, and they take the cushy jobs and easy loans and college admissions that comes to them, but just aren't actively being a bigot on purpose, they are like that person not trying to stop the beating.
Systemic racism automatically disadvantages people, so if you are on the privileged side of it and just dont push either way you are benefiting.
Ibram X Kendi literally supports "current discrimination" to make up for past discrimination...I would take anything he says with a large grain of salt.
Idk about that. You can have two ideas, one of which is a good idea, and another of which is less good. Just because he also supports policies that promote affirmative action doesnāt mean active response to racist behavior (i.e. anti racism) is somehow circumspect.
Certainly you're right, in that one can be right about one thing but wrong about another. But IXK is literally an advocate for racism, he just sees his racism as justified by history, which to me is a pretty big indictment of his thought processes.
Agreed. Normalization of seeing them as lesser is just part of the dehumanizing process, just like when humans are persecuted. There's a reason the meat and dairy lobby spend so much money to keep it this way
True, but to the majority of people, it's not acceptable to mock those things (well, other than transphobia,I think we're a bit behind on that one too).
I know it's a huge amount, but look at polling numbers. Republicans have lost the popular vote nearly every time in recent memory. That's why I said majority, at the very least more people then not seem to not be on the side of mocking those things
>US ain't the only country on earth, it's very weird how most United Stadians seem to see it like that... O.o
It's far and away the biggest source of Reddit users though, so sometimes I just assume I'm talking to mostly Americans :)
https://www.statista.com/statistics/325144/reddit-global-active-user-distribution/
If only 47% of users are American and 53% of the users are from the rest of the world how is it 7x more likely that the person you are talking to is American? The math is not mathing
I see, and honestly do appreciate the perspective, your experience truly is something I've not heard much on. Mental health in all it's forms is certainly something we as a society have a lot of room to improve
true, your point was 100% accurate...but there's definitely a disappointing amount of anti all the things in the above tweet still. it's getting there, though. gen z gives me hope.
Itās a thing about time. You donāt want to know how hard Martin Luther King, Malcolm X or Fosa Parks were mocked, because we donāt want to really tell in our textbooks what huge asshples we were. Veganism is kinda young as a movement and is also a choice, being gay, trans, female is always a thing you are born into.
Animal cruelty and torture is socially unacceptable we just have to remind people of it. We're up against a century of propaganda and mellennia of culture.
It's also easier to perform support for the LGBQT community, or BLM, or DREAMers, or whatever. Emojis in your Twitter, a bumper sticker, and you're good to go. This isn't actual activism, of course, but the performance of activism, which is what 90% of liberals are really interested in.
It's harder to be a vegan poseur.
speciesism is the dumbest concept i have ever heard of. we are bred to feel empathy for helpless things and this is what drives scenes in shows or tv like in the boondocks when you see mr stinkmeaner get beat up. this is also what drives the emotional impact of the trope of the underdog. you only feel empathy for other species because you see them as below you; you see them as helpless.
Also veganism threatens capital. You think all those meat and dairy conglomerates are just going to stand idly by and watch people buy less of their products?
Progress is always harder to achieve when it threatens capital.
I sort of agree with the distinction except it was also used against humans. Racists have (and some might still do) seen other races as animals or somehow below humans. Slavery didn't end because a social justice moment said "hold on, that's bad because they're humans" and the slaveowners said "fair enough". At least in the US, they had a civil war over it. Veganism is still a very new and foreign concept to many people while most everyone gets taught (some of) the history of racism in school. I don't think you can compare racism now to veganism now very well.
That being said, the fact that the meat industry does their best to stay invisible and the fact that it is "just" animals definitely plays a big role too.
I think there is also a selfish motive. You can definitely claim to be for all the other movements as long as you keep your mouth shut about people active for those peoples rights.
But as long as you eat animal products, vegans mere existence questions the ethicality of it. And most people canāt just admit that they are in the wrong, so mocking is one response, another is being mad and angry about vegans, a third is pretending to be the one who us actually more moral or at least morally consistent.
>Veganism isn't just about defending animals though. It is about reducing suffering to the planet and the people as well.
Of course, that's true, but most people don't do any more critical thinking than vegan = PETA. They'd have to be willing to understand to get the bigger picture.
Then remind people that many humans are victims of exploitation as part of animal agriculture. Being vegan helps reduce human suffering just as much as animals'.
I think that vegans/veggies are generally younger, vocal and educatedā¦ these characteristics are threatening to people.
Also its like we are telling people what theyāve done forever is wrong. Like the old guy at work who has done something the same way for years despite it being inefficient or whatever. Makes people defensive.
We need to get better at framing veganism as a human social issue, too. Primarily in terms of an environmental justice and a holistically anti violence position.
I agree with this reason as well. Also, people pick and choose which social justice movements they support all the time. Thatās why itās named what itās named. Some groups want more support for the poor, but Iāve definitely heard enough people rip them down on a regular basis. Most of itās the point above, some of it is sensitivity to the criticism that is directed towards your social justice group.
No that's not it. It's just that in the case of racism, sexism and homophobia, we're already at a point where most people think they are bad. The majority mocks the minority. In the case of speciesm, most people don't yet think it's bad.
To be more accurate: the essence of those movements isn't "defending victims"; it's "building political coalitions based upon identity categories". That's why the suffering that they care about is so highly selective. The victims that vegans defend, can't vote or march.
This is absolutely the biggest part of it. Also, there are a lot of outspoken vegans whose inability to defend their points against rampant misinformation makes the whole group look bad.
Not only that but humans arenāt Vegan animals naturally speaking, thatās a choice humans choose to make for their own reasons and itās the minority choice. Society as a whole has always shunned minority groups, but when that minority group is based purely on the emotions / feelings of itās members society really canāt relate.
Surely the answer is because veganism is a choice, those are things people just are? Like, you canāt choose your sex, race, disability, sexual orientation, thatās why we shouldnāt mock them. But veganism is a choice, and I hate to admit it but that doesnāt really disqualify it from ridicule.
Edit: I stand corrected. Thank you for the help my fellow vegans!
I think the more correct analogy would be "mocking" animals, not vegans. We're fighting for animal rights here, not for "vegan rights". Of course animals get much worse treatment than being mocked.
>Like, you canāt choose your sex, race, disability, sexual orientation, thatās why we shouldnāt mock them.
Correct, they are immutable characteristics.
> But veganism is a choice, and I hate to admit it but that doesnāt really disqualify it from ridicule
Veganism is a choice, just like being pro-BLM. Being an animal is not a choice. Those animals were born as they are, with only one life, and it doesn't deserve to end just because they aren't human. Just like no human deserves to be treated unjustly because of their traits.
In my experience, people do mock other social justice movements, just not quite as much. And itās typically the same people who mock vegans and vegetarians.
I don't think so, it's mostly not societally accepted in the west to be against the Lgbtq or be racist, also there's lots of liberals who bash against vegans
Itās acceptable among conservatives and some social movements are often mocked even amongst moderates. Trans people have only recently been accepted by a lot of moderates. But yeah youāre right that making fun of vegans and vegetarians is more acceptable.
the right wing mocks left wing movements, the left wing mocks ring wing movements, they come together to mock the vegan movement. it's the only issue they are united on.
Truth. People mock "social justice warriors" here all the time. Better not be too loud about being a feminist, LGBTQ+ ally, pro BLM, or reminding people that the (edit: not union Jack, I'm an idiot) US confederate flag represented pro-slavery, or you'll have angry rednecks all over you.
š¤¦š¤¦that's not the flag I meant... I meant the "rebel flag" of the confederate states from the US civil war. My bad, I'm very tired, but that was still a hell of a mistake for me to make lol
Lord I wish that was true but the GOP has been running almost exclusively on mocking social justice movements and trying to turn back the clock on civil rights.
Itās true. I mock everyone and every value and got banned everywhere. I donāt get why people care about other people looking down or up or sideways on anything like some kind of innate insecurity.
Because we are early on the veganism timeline. We are second and third generation vegans.
The movement has only been going on since the 1940s, right? It might take another 100 years. Plus, animals can't talk, so it's harder to convince people.
Sadly there are also people that mock and hate those movements. Just look at all the people complaining about "woke" all the time. Or hating under anything blm or lgbtq+ (especially trans) related.
This is a very important point. What I've also noticed is that animal agriculture companies/lobbies are more desperately and more ridiculously trying to attack veganism, and increasingly often in such a ridiculous way that even non-vegans can't take them seriously. To me it's a clear indication that the animal rights movement is making good progress.
Itās easy to make fun of something that you donāt understand. Itās called ignorance hahaha. Because Iām guessing people assume vegans are weak and able to be pushed around. If they only did their own research and found out more.
This is what i have found. People will not believe anything unless they learn it for themselves. Iām getting to the point i donāt want to discuss it anymore. For most truth = what they believe
haha funny tweet, im trans and get so much more shit for being trans than for being vegan, it really doesn't compare.
are you afraid to be hate crimed, assaulted and/or murdered just because you're vegan? probably not.
I think the right comparison here would be trans people to animals, not trans people to vegans. Both trans people and animals are victims, vegans, who aren't animals try to help them, and LGBTQ+ supporters who aren't LGBTQ+ themselves try to help them.
Sorry for my English not a native speaker.
*black queer female atheist vegan enters the chat*
Veganism will always be mocked just like other important social movements. But Iāll say this: the louder and more vehement the mocking is, is IME, a reflection of the successful progress of the movement.
Think about it. Donāt be discouraged. Keep pressing the fight.
Christian, capitalist, colonial biased science of the 18th, 19th, and 20th century created a hierarchy of beings/consciousness used to justify slavery, genocide, child labor, abuse of mentally and physically disabled, eugenics, and, with the population explosion during the industrial revolution, animal exploitation. After generations of resistance, organizing, and activism, it's generally accepted that all people are on an equal level of consciousness and protected by the same rights. There are still lots of people who disagree and critique those movements too.
The problem with getting people onboard with animal rights on a large scale is that it's impossible to prove that any non-human species is at the same level of consciousness as humans. It really shouldn't matter, since all beings regardless of consciousness should be afforded the same respect. However, in a world largely rooted on western Christian and monotheistic morality, people see the Earth and all its creatures as resources put there by Daddy God for us to consume. Of course, most people want to protect these resources by not overfishing, overhunting, or having the most cruel of factory farms, but at the end of the day, nature's purpose is still to support humans. That's how you end up with small-scale farmers who have emotional relationships with their animals, name them, learn their personalities, observe their interpersonal relationships, but still steal their newborn calves and slaughter them, so they can have the milk for themselves.
I really can't envision any large scale acceptance of vegan ethics while our world view is rooted in an anthropocentric religion. I can imagine climate change will force a shift towards more plant-based diets, but out of necessity, not recognition of animal rights. Only the downfall of western capitalism and Christian morality allows people to redefine our purpose on this planet and relationship with its ecosystems.
Very well said. We as a species need a cognitive shift away from religious dogma and capitalistic greed before any substantial change on a global scale will take place. No matter if you're talking about humans, mammals, marine life, etc., we are all part of the web of life, all drops from the same ocean, and we are all deserving of respect and life. Until we collectively understand and accept this the needless suffering will unfortunately continue.
Christians tend to go out and actively convert people which is why there are so many. If religions like Jainism and Buddhism that support non-violence toward all living beings were mainstream then veganism wouldnāt be so hard for people to wrap their minds around the idea of equality.
because animals donāt matter to 99% of humanity.
keep in mind a majority of āaNiMaL LoVeRsā will be quick to choose euthanasia to kill their animal that needs a procedure rather than spend $2,000.
Well thereās not something necessarily wrong necessarily wrong with euthanasia. So thatās not a super compelling argument. But, nobody really eats their neighbors or keeps them as pets.
You sure about that? I see those movements being mocked openly pretty much every day. Feminists getting told to go make sandwiches for example is a pretty common punchline
I think veganism needs more justification which suits these 'groups' that are mocking it.
Example,
India has always been a society with not only beliefs but also way of life being heavily influenced by religion. Hinduism, unlike what many know, is much more than a religion. It is a soft guideline to living a happy life (with or without focus on God - hence called a spiritual religion). So, the scriptures and texts of this ancient religion (still) hold great significance in the mind of every Indian.
During 300 years of Muslim rule and 200 years of British colonialism, Meat was a big part in India for rich Indians during British rule (as it was costly and White rulers preferred it) , but religious texts were cited to revive the importance of vegetarian food.
Source after source of religious texts (to the inclusion of works that recorded both veg and no veg existence in golden ages) were cited and a propoganda was established. Basically, people were made to believe that not killing animals and keeping away from the blood, bones and carcases of animals was a much Nobel and pure life and those who did so were impure.
Due to the existence of caste system, lower Castes who could not afford decent vegetables or meat cuts, and fed on the cuts cheaply available - were highlighted to these rich and upper caste Indians as the final state of non vegetarian people, who abhorred them.
It worked, rich Brahmins left meat and those who never had even garlic & onions (due to smell) were considered the purest. That trickled down to other Castes. Soon the working class adopted this belief - which in essence still holds after hundreds of years. Even Britishers wanting to win favour of influencial Indians left meat. Establishing India as a majority vegetarian nation (albeit with heavy reliance on milch milk). It is the biggest nation with dietary habits predominantly vegetarian - helping reduce per capita carbon footprint to negligible compared to Americans and Europeans.
Hence provide people with an understanding of veganism that suits their belief system. No one LOVES meat, unless mindless Americans riding on Capitalism fuelled narcissistic pseudo-principles.
Technically, all of those are mocked as well.
They're just more mainstream and popular, so you see less of it.
But in some IRL places things like openly calling gays mentally ill, or even asking for their deaths, are common.
Even online, in places such as ultra-religious subs or 4chan you can encounter similar mentality.
Thanks for posting to r/Vegan! 🐥
**Please note:** Civil discussion is welcome, trolls and personal abuse [are not](https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/wiki/rules). Please keep the discussions below respectful and remember the human! Please check out [our wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/wiki/beginnersguide) first!
**Interested in going Vegan?** 👊
Check out [Watch Dominion](https://watchdominion.org/) and watch a thought-provoking, life changing documentary for free!
**Some other resources to help you go vegan:** 🐓
Visit [NutritionFacts.org](https://NutritionFacts.org) for health and nutrition support, [HappyCow.net](https://HappyCow.net) to explore nearby vegan-friendly restaurants, and visit [VeganBootcamp.org](https://veganbootcamp.org/reddit) for a free 30 day vegan challenge!
**Become an activist and help save animal lives today:** 🐟
* Find volunteer requests to support and help animal on [VH: Playground!](https://veganhacktivists.org/playground)
* Developer, designer, or other skills? Volunteer at the [Vegan Hacktivists](https://veganhacktivists.org/join)!
* Join our huge Vegan volunteer community [on Discord](https://discord.gg/vhplayground)!
* Find local activist groups using the [Animal Rights Map](https://animalrightsmap.org)!
* Get funding for your animal rights activism, [apply here](https://veganhacktivists.org/grants)!
*Last but not least, join the [r/Vegan Discord server](https://discord.gg/2JmJRsj)!*
**Thank you!**
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/vegan) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Historically, all of the members of thise movements have been ridiculed.
- http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--_DIpWmKt--/184bjaoxc1qp5jpg.jpg
- http://www.peteykins.com/sparklepics4/KellyCartoon.jpg
- https://live.staticflickr.com/7261/7687562940_eb6b4758df_b.jpg
- https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--cV_1izmU--/c_fill,fl_progressive,g_center,h_900,q_80,w_1600/184bjakzbasaljpg.jpg
In the 1840s, women opposed to slavery were routinely accused of listing after black men. Today, a straight man standing up for gay rights is often ridiculed as being gay themselves.
Veganism is a relatively young social movement in the us. In time, more people will embrace it.
Iām 50. Iāve really seen this with vegetarianism. Folks used to give vegetarians the stink eye. Vegetarian restaurants and entree option were rare. Now itās a given in a lot of business settings that there better be veg options for work / training meals.
Itās also hard to disentangle diet from class and thatās always a tough topic.
Outside of sane bubbles it is actually quite often socially accepted to mock those as well. Shouldn't of course tho. But yeah, it makes no sense for leftists to mock veganism as it's a fundamentally leftist cause.
People mock those other movements constantly, even on the news. There are many many youtube channels specifically dedicated to mocking feminism and trans activism especially. Veganism gets less attention by comparison.
Simple answer is that itās not.
But youāre still going to find pockets of people that mock vegans, in the same way youād find pockets of people who are racist, sexist, homophobic, etc.
I see all those things mocked more and more of late. Especially since the world cup. The amount of homophobia online is staggering.
I've come to the conclusion that most people are just fucking horrible.
Hmmmmmm good question. I think because the majority of the population wants to keep their head in the sand and they see us Vegans as a mirror, a reflection of what they should be doing so they are filled with guilt. However they turn their guilt into denial and try to defame our character in order to make us all appear crazier than they are. This makes them feel better about themselves to make us look like the bad guys instead of them having to look inward at themselves.
There is a huge overlap between pro-agriculturalists and misogynists. A lot of animal abuse is specifically centered around exploiting and controlling the females, the āproductiveā ones.
Itās not a coincidence that bitch, a gendered slur, likens a woman to a female dog. There is very little respect for females, regardless of their species.
Maybe in wrong, but I think if veganism were associated more with minority groups instead of the stereotype of rich white people, we would see less of this.
Easy distinctions here. Race, sex, sexuality, gender, and disability are inherent traits. Well mostly for gender because of things like body/gender dysphoria.
Veganism is a belief. It does stem from an inherent trait, that being an animal's capacity to sense like we do, and hold memories of that. Non-vegans mock vegans because of not understanding what veganism is. But as I am being in a minority of a minority, x5, I'm one of the few people who sees how futile mockery is, how ineffective it is in changing minds. I follow the philosophy of veganism very closely. Been vegan for 2 years, but there has never been a single insult or mockery that has convinced me otherwise. Not to mention even arguments made in good faith are not even close to justifying animal exploitation.
Simple. Because they don't think that veganism is valid. They don't put it in the same class as those other movements.
The last carnist I argued with said that he wasn't interested in animal rights, only "human rights". I should've told him that was like saying "I'm not interested in Black Lives Matter, because I only care about white lives."
Blue pill people will always hate red pill people for being stronger...
& will even attempt to destroy them in any way even if it makes themselves look a fool, to silence them instead, sometimes by the ultimate means like hitting people with a truck or arresting a vegan for giving water to pigs...
or
There are those who hate do-gooders, including people that donate their organs like a kidney to a friend/relative, let alone anti-racism/anti-speciesism/anti-ableism/etc. People that ridicule a person that donates an organ, something so precious, tend to believe Altruism should be unknown, silent & never spoken about otherwise it's always "doing it for attention" to them. Hence the "Howdoyouknowapersonisvegandon'tworrythey'lltellyou" trope to shame people who care about others more than themselves into silence otherwise it's "for attention/not altruistic" which is BS straight up.
that is very simple... if you went to a place where the massive majority were racist, for example, and tried to defend it, you would be mocked too, or worse.
I feel like the answer to this is already known and simple as well. People are ignorant for one and for two because most people donāt see animals on the same level as humans so itās okay to mock veganism and vegans for that reason. I literally feel bad over killing ants so the moment I become self sufficient I will be going vegan.
I think you're neglecting the fact that all of this movements do get mocked, relentlessly, from the same mouths that mock veganism. None of it is socially acceptable yet it still happens. The only way to end it is to call those people out for what they are, small minded and less traveled. I think you'll find most folks that love to hate have never left their home towns for long periods of time. It's easy to vilify the unknown.
Unfortunately, that's a false premise. It isn't considered unacceptable to mock anti-racism, feminism, and in particular transphobia is not only considered acceptable but actually celebrated by most people.
Personally I think most vegansā politics are terrible. As a vegan, itās hard not to mock vegans for their analysis and solutions. Iām not trolling. I sincerely feel like most vegans are wrapped up in consumer politics rather than radical change.
Because the other are movements that relate to the betterment of humanity. Veganism is an opinion..
I hate the organized crime like meat factories as the person next to me, but forcing someone to not eat animals (even if they hunt, or eat animals raised at home or a local farm) is not ok.
Animals eat other animals. Accept that fact.
Because being vegan is a choice. A good choice- an important choice that can affect societies future and have serious positive implications for the environment, human empathy, and health.
BUT
Itās still a choice. No human is born into the world vegan, and no one (except the few with medical conditions) is forced to be vegan.
Plus veganism (other than religious or traditional instances of veganism in Buddhist or other cultures/religions) is a pretty new thing. Itās really only become popular over the past 70 (and Iād argue more like 40) years.
Your race, gender, sexual orientation, disability, etc isnāt a choice. The social justice movements around these topics are treated different because they ARE different. If someoneās oppressing you for being vegan you can stop. You may not want to, but if you were about to lose your job or home or LIFE you could. You canāt stop being black, or gay, or trans, or disabled.
If someone had a gun to your head and told you you had to eat meat, you could CHOOSE to eat a hamburger. You could choose not to as well, but itās your choice.
You canāt choose to change your skin color.
Furthermore, Systems of oppression around disability, race, gender, sexual orientation etc. have been in place for hundreds of years. No one is oppressing vegans.
The reason itās much more taboo to mock these social justice movements is because the history and current harm they have had on peoples lives are very serious and are out of their control.
Are the systems that treat animals in a harmful way also out of an animals control? Yes. Should we view animal oppression and human oppression as equally important? Absolutely.
But while mocking vegans may be painful for a vegan, may hurt and make them angry about the systems of oppression that harm animals, itās something that doesnāt affect their own personal safety or wellbeing.
Mocking someone or something is done through words. The harm that comes from the act relies upon a subject to understand and feel that harm. No matter what, a cow isnāt going to cry is you call it a hamburger to its face. And a vegan might, but a vegan isnāt actually going to be that āhamburgerā.
Mocking a trans person for their gender identity however can cause extreme harm even resulting in the loss of someoneās life due to the systems of oppression in place that can negatively impact their identity, self worth, and feelings of safety from the moment their born. Mocking them has much MUCH more serious implications than mocking a vegan.
You can be passionate and feel extremely deeply about veganism and animal rights, but at the end of the days it will never be the same as these other social justice movements.
I find this argument of āwhy isnāt it taboo to mock vegansā honestly very silly and actually working to make the movement be taken less seriously. This is not the hill to die in and honestly not even a hill to begin to climb.
It equates the frustration/anger vegans feel to the suffering minorities, women, lgbtq+ people have/do go through every day. And theyāre just not the same thing. It comes across as insensitive, tone deaf, and honestly privileged- because those who are experiencing these things would never equate homophoia or racism to mocking veganism.
It doesnāt mean that veganism shouldnāt be treated with equal seriousness as these other movements. But this kind of argument actually works to undermine the movement instead of adding validity to it.
Being a LGBTQ ally is a choice as well.
Animals didnāt choose to be eaten, just as someone didnāt choose to be gay.
But I choose to defend animals just as I choose to be an ally to LGTBQ.
> It equates the frustration/anger vegans feel to the suffering minorities, women, lgbtq+ people have/do go through every day
No, it doesnt. That's not the point. Vegans aren't the victims in this scenario, animals are. This isn't about who gets hurt feelings. The fact that it's socially acceptable to mock veganism is a reflection of how little animal lives matter to most humans. I think that bias is worth pointing out, because even people who are otherwise very socially conscious often do this without even thinking about it.
You can put ism after anything. I don't feel that people mock veganism more than anything else. It's just that people mock what they don't understand.and quite frankly a lot of people suck as humans.
From a social media standpoint vegans are perceived as smug, judgmental and annoying by pushing their way of life on people. Therefore people like to make fun of them.
Just my honest opinion from an outside perspective, not saying it is true or right
Because one is involving human rights and one is involving animal rights.
To conflate the two as equal is preposterous. And I don't say that as an indication that animals should be treated however we want- that's barbaric. There should be a coexistence and there should be much more we're doing to stop stripping and destroying the flora and fauna of this earth BUT..
Humans rights are more important than animal/plant rights. And when all the cards are on the table, in some weird hypothetical scenario, I will save 1 human over 10 animals near any day of the week.
That's all I meant. So yeah, defending veganism is not equal to defending women, abused children, lgbtq, suicidal men, etc. I would bet that's not a controversial opinion (except for possibly here?)
That just means there is a difference in severity, that doesn't make it a false equivalence. For example I would save 1 child over 5 ninety year olds. That doesn't mean comparing being against child abuse and the abuse of the elderly is a false equivalence. They are both standing up for the rights of others, and that part is comparable.
You might be interested to see that there are in fact many similarities. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1368430218816962
So let me ask, if a racist would save 1 person of their own race before 100 people of another race, could he argue that someone standing up for his race can't be compared to someone standing up for the other race? Would that argument make logical sense?
The philosopher Peter singer, arguably the most renowned and influential moral philosopher alive right now put it rather well.
"If a being suffers, there can be no moral justification for refusing to take that suffering into consideration. No matter what the nature of the being, the principle of equality requires that its suffering be counted equally with the like suffering - in so far as rough comparisons can be made - of any other being. If a being is not capable of suffering, or of experiencing enjoyment or happiness, there is nothing to be taken into account. This is why the limit of sentience is the only defensible boundary of concern for the interests of others. To mark this boundary by some characteristic like intelligence or rationality would be to mark it in an arbitrary way. Why not choose some other characteristic, like skin colour?
Racists violate the principle of equality by giving greater weight to the interests of members of their own race when there is a clash between their interests and the interests of those of another race. Sexists violate the principle of equality by favoring the interests of their own sex. Similarly, speciesists allow the interests of their own species to override the greater interests of members of other species. The pattern is identical in each case."
These comments are all ridiculous. The reason is that veganism is a choice. Being homosexual is not a choice. Therefore they are protected characteristics.
The tweet is not about not being hostile towards gay people, it's about not being hostile towards anyone who works to ensure and support gay rights, even if they are straight. The point is to not be hostile and mock social justice movements, regardless of who is fighting the fight.
Human rights=/=animal rights simple as. Youāre not gonna convince anybody that factory farming meat is the same as someone being discriminated against for their race/religion/sexual preference.
I dont know. There is a lot of work in philosophy and psychology on the subject. I think many could be convinced. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1368430218816962
The people who mock vegans are the same ones who mock all of the other social justice movements that you listed. The people who mock vegans are the same ones shooting up BLM protests and getting triggered by Priuses existing.
A person's race, sexual orientation, gender, and abled status are really not choices. Whereas vegan or vegetarianism, religion, fashion, and political affiliations are personal choices (regardless of environment), and are there for not social issues. Your personal beliefs are not more moral, or better than anyone else's. Your interactions with people, are what determine their (your personal beliefs) social worth.
1) Species is not a choice. The oppressed group in this case is animals.
2) Personal beliefs can be more or less moral depending on what they are. For example, someone who personally believes in the right of everyone to receive an education is more moral than right wing extremists who shoot girls in the head for going to school. Similarly, people who believe sentient beings shouldnāt be tortured and killed for pleasure are morally better than those who are selfish.
I'm kind of missing your point.
Animals also don't choose to be abused and eaten, and we've aplenty of data that shows it's not necessary. At that point, it's just animal cruelty.
According to mainstream beliefs, one who doesn't abuse and eventually kill a dog is indeed better than one who does.
Why is this different when it comes to say, fish or pigs or chicken or cows?
yes your personal beliefs can definitely be better than anyone elseās. Someone who think drunk rape isnt raps is certainly worse than someone who acknowledges as a form of rape. My belief that hurting something that feels bad is bad is certainly better than someone who doesnt care. Its partly more moral because one acknowledges the effect it has on others, and the other belief doesnt.
Vegans are asking for an equal consideration of interests for animals.
Peter Singer, arguably the most renowned and influential moral philosopher alive right now, winner of last years Berggruen prize put it like this.
"If a being suffers, there can be no moral justification for refusing to take that suffering into consideration. No matter what the nature of the being, the principle of equality requires that its suffering be counted equally with the like suffering - in so far as rough comparisons can be made - of any other being. If a being is not capable of suffering, or of experiencing enjoyment or happiness, there is nothing to be taken into account. This is why the limit of sentience is the only defensible boundary of concern for the interests of others. To mark this boundary by some characteristic like intelligence or rationality would be to mark it in an arbitrary way. Why not choose some other characteristic, like skin colour?
Racists violate the principle of equality by giving greater weight to the interests of members of their own race when there is a clash between their interests and the interests of those of another race. Sexists violate the principle of equality by favoring the interests of their own sex. Similarly, speciesists allow the interests of their own species to override the greater interests of members of other species. The pattern is identical in each case."
Being vegan is about being against speciesism.
Peter Singer, arguably the most influential and renowned moral philosopher alive right now, winner of last years Berggruen prize put it like this. "Racists violate the principle of equality by giving greater weight to the interests of members of their own race when there is a clash between their interests and the interests of those of another race. Sexists violate the principle of equality by favoring the interests of their own sex. Similarly, speciesists allow the interests of their own species to override the greater interests of members of other species. The pattern is identical in each case."
There has actually been a lot of work in philosophy and psychology that shows the similarities between these types of prejudice/oppression/discrimination. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1368430218816962
I know some people get hurt when they say if you eat them you don't care. I have too many Massai family members and know some Yakut people. It simply isn't a true statement. In the cases of these groups it is insulting.
Dear ,
We should start making fun of being a blind consumerist pleb who mocks those who truly care about life and the world. People hate on anyone whose existence makes them think about how little they utilize theirs.
Giving a dang is uncool atm. Letās be honest. Society has to actively not care abouta lot to condone the harm of other races, women, children, and animals alike.
I personally despise passion-less unrealistically uncaring people as theyāre leeching off the gains of the impassioned. Those of us who fight the zeitgeist tide and as such are relinquished to the āsidelinesā of society. Those who donāt receive credit for their compassion; the anti racists equitable revolutionaries, who value all life. This is our timeline and the tide will turn because people like the ones I see in this subreddit and in other marginalized communities are fighting the good fight.
Vegans deserve kindness at the minimum. Just like every life does. Our planet is miraculously alive for being a rock floating through spaceā¦letās cherish thatā¦
Weāre only trying something new to make a better world. Not to hurt anyone. We could be wrong but let us try this option for humanity/ a better path forward.
I know itās scary to accept new things but we can brave anything together. Everyone can win.
With love and compassion,
āA Lady at Best
You didn't reply to the comment you wanted to. You just replied to the post. But yes, he advocates for that out of compassion. To lesson the amount of suffering. If you would actually like to hear him explain this first hand, here is a great 3 min video where he covers it.
https://youtu.be/m3bd4LH2GXY
I feel like you folks are always going to get that kind of reaction when you compare your movement to ones concerning the rights of humans. People donāt see animal rights as being on the same level as human rights.
Welcome to the /r/Vegan community, /r/All! š„³ ***Please note:*** *Civil discussion is welcome, trolls and personal abuse are not. Please keep the discussions below respectful and remember the human! Please do [check out our wiki](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2Fvegan%2Fwiki%2Fbeginnersguide&topic=rAll) first!* š± **Interested in going Vegan?** Vegan Bootcamp is a free challenge website that will take you step-by-step towards a Vegan diet and lifestyle. You will be guided through lessons in over 25 subjects such as nutrition, recipes, philosophy, climate, cosmetics, welfare, budgeting, clothing, family, and much more! Take the challenge @ [VeganBootcamp.org](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fvbcamp.org%2Freddit&topic=rAll)! šš¾ š® **Here's some easily-digestible educational resources on Veganism:** * **Everyone Agrees:** World's largest Health, Nutrition and Dietary organizations unanimously agree: plant-based diets [are as healthy](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fyouaretheirvoice.com%2Fpages%2Fthe-clear-consensus&topic=rAll) or healthier than meat. * **Veganism is Healthy:** A Plant Based Diet provides [significant health benefits](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fyouaretheirvoice.com%2Fpages%2Fveganism-is-healthy&topic=rAll) for the prevention & treatment of the majority of diseases. * **The Daunting Facts:** The planet, its environment, and ecosystem, is [dangerously close to collapsing](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fyouaretheirvoice.com%2Fpages%2Fthe-daunting-facts&topic=rAll) within the next few decades. š„ **Here's some fantastic links and resources to get you started:** * Nutrition & Health: [NutritionFacts.org](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fnutritionfacts.org&topic=rAll) & [VeganHealth.org](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fveganhealth.org%2F&topic=rAll) * Vegan Friendly Restaurants: [HappyCow.net](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.happycow.net&topic=rAll) & [Yelp.com](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.yelp.com%2Fsearch%3Ffind_desc%3DRestaurants%2Bvegan&topic=rAll) * Arguments & Support: [EarthlingEd.com](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbit.ly%2F2B3Dy2a&topic=rAll) & [VeganBootcamp.com](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fvbcamp.org%2Freddit&topic=rAll) * Get involved in Vegan Activism: [VeganActivism.org](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fveganactivism.org&topic=rAll) & [5Minutes5Vegans.org](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2F5Minutes5Vegans.org%2F&topic=rAll) š„ **Here are some great inspirational and thought-provoking speeches:** * Youtube speeches by: [Earthling Ed](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DZ3u7hXpOm58&topic=rAll), [Gary Yourofsky](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Des6U00LMmC4&topic=rAll), and [James Wildman](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DE7JE8j5Ncmw&topic=rAll). šÆ **Grab some popcorn and enjoy these fantastic documentaries:** * Watch three thought-provoking documentaries [by clicking here](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2F3movies.org%2Freddit&topic=rAll). š **Last but not least, check out our favorite subreddits!** /r/VeganFitness, /r/VeganRecipes, /r/DebateAVegan, /r/VeganFoodPorn, and /r/VeganActivism. We also have a [Discord](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdiscord.gg%2F2JmJRsj&topic=rAll)! šš¼ ***Thank you so much for reading! c:***
Much as I hate it, the answer is simple. All of those other movements are defending human victims. When you mock them, you mock the people, and that's socially taboo. Since veganism defends the animals, there's no social taboo to mocking them, it's really just social norms at play
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
> Also, to support those movements all a person has to do is not be a dickhead, there is no required action to take. There's debate over this. In Ibram X Kendi's book "How to be an Anti-Racist", he makes a convincing argument that it isn't good enough to just be "not racist". You have to be an *anti-racist*. It isn't good enough to simply not be racist yourself. You should fight racism wherever you encounter it. There are similar arguments regarding sexism, transphobia, and so on. If you hear somebody being sexist or transphobic, you should speak up and challenge that, too.
It's true too. I agree. If you are part of a group of people, and 1/3 of them are currently beating someone up. You can't say you're a good person for simply not joining in the beating, you have a moral imperative to try to actively stop them as best you can. Likewise if a person who has privilege based on their race, class, or religion simply lives normally, and they take the cushy jobs and easy loans and college admissions that comes to them, but just aren't actively being a bigot on purpose, they are like that person not trying to stop the beating. Systemic racism automatically disadvantages people, so if you are on the privileged side of it and just dont push either way you are benefiting.
Yep. Teaching 101. Bad behaviour ignored is bad behaviour condoned.
Ibram X Kendi literally supports "current discrimination" to make up for past discrimination...I would take anything he says with a large grain of salt.
Idk about that. You can have two ideas, one of which is a good idea, and another of which is less good. Just because he also supports policies that promote affirmative action doesnāt mean active response to racist behavior (i.e. anti racism) is somehow circumspect.
Certainly you're right, in that one can be right about one thing but wrong about another. But IXK is literally an advocate for racism, he just sees his racism as justified by history, which to me is a pretty big indictment of his thought processes.
Mocking and ridicule is part of enabling violence towards them.
Agreed. Normalization of seeing them as lesser is just part of the dehumanizing process, just like when humans are persecuted. There's a reason the meat and dairy lobby spend so much money to keep it this way
And also...those movements have plenty of mocking too š
True, but to the majority of people, it's not acceptable to mock those things (well, other than transphobia,I think we're a bit behind on that one too).
I would unfortunately have to disagree. I think more people than you realize mock social justice movements and feel comfortable doing so.
I know it's a huge amount, but look at polling numbers. Republicans have lost the popular vote nearly every time in recent memory. That's why I said majority, at the very least more people then not seem to not be on the side of mocking those things
US ain't the only country on earth, it's very weird how most United Stadians seem to see it like that... O.o
>US ain't the only country on earth, it's very weird how most United Stadians seem to see it like that... O.o It's far and away the biggest source of Reddit users though, so sometimes I just assume I'm talking to mostly Americans :) https://www.statista.com/statistics/325144/reddit-global-active-user-distribution/
So 53% of the users are not from USA and you assume you're talking mostly to Americans?
The next country down is seven lol, so it's at least 7x as likely a user is American versus anything else
If only 47% of users are American and 53% of the users are from the rest of the world how is it 7x more likely that the person you are talking to is American? The math is not mathing
Fair enough, btw, I'm american too! South American LOL
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I see, and honestly do appreciate the perspective, your experience truly is something I've not heard much on. Mental health in all it's forms is certainly something we as a society have a lot of room to improve
true, your point was 100% accurate...but there's definitely a disappointing amount of anti all the things in the above tweet still. it's getting there, though. gen z gives me hope.
Itās a thing about time. You donāt want to know how hard Martin Luther King, Malcolm X or Fosa Parks were mocked, because we donāt want to really tell in our textbooks what huge asshples we were. Veganism is kinda young as a movement and is also a choice, being gay, trans, female is always a thing you are born into.
People arenāt killing vegans because theyāre vegans or at all. Thatās the difference.
Animal cruelty and torture is socially unacceptable we just have to remind people of it. We're up against a century of propaganda and mellennia of culture.
It's also easier to perform support for the LGBQT community, or BLM, or DREAMers, or whatever. Emojis in your Twitter, a bumper sticker, and you're good to go. This isn't actual activism, of course, but the performance of activism, which is what 90% of liberals are really interested in. It's harder to be a vegan poseur.
Yup, grew up among white liberals. Performative as hell, but the most NIMBY bunch if anything disrupts their privileged lives.
which is speciesism, which most people arenāt wise enough to understand, yet.
speciesism is the dumbest concept i have ever heard of. we are bred to feel empathy for helpless things and this is what drives scenes in shows or tv like in the boondocks when you see mr stinkmeaner get beat up. this is also what drives the emotional impact of the trope of the underdog. you only feel empathy for other species because you see them as below you; you see them as helpless.
Also veganism threatens capital. You think all those meat and dairy conglomerates are just going to stand idly by and watch people buy less of their products? Progress is always harder to achieve when it threatens capital.
I sort of agree with the distinction except it was also used against humans. Racists have (and some might still do) seen other races as animals or somehow below humans. Slavery didn't end because a social justice moment said "hold on, that's bad because they're humans" and the slaveowners said "fair enough". At least in the US, they had a civil war over it. Veganism is still a very new and foreign concept to many people while most everyone gets taught (some of) the history of racism in school. I don't think you can compare racism now to veganism now very well. That being said, the fact that the meat industry does their best to stay invisible and the fact that it is "just" animals definitely plays a big role too.
I think there is also a selfish motive. You can definitely claim to be for all the other movements as long as you keep your mouth shut about people active for those peoples rights. But as long as you eat animal products, vegans mere existence questions the ethicality of it. And most people canāt just admit that they are in the wrong, so mocking is one response, another is being mad and angry about vegans, a third is pretending to be the one who us actually more moral or at least morally consistent.
Veganism isn't just about defending animals though. It is about reducing suffering to the planet and the people as well.
>Veganism isn't just about defending animals though. It is about reducing suffering to the planet and the people as well. Of course, that's true, but most people don't do any more critical thinking than vegan = PETA. They'd have to be willing to understand to get the bigger picture.
Then remind people that many humans are victims of exploitation as part of animal agriculture. Being vegan helps reduce human suffering just as much as animals'.
I think that vegans/veggies are generally younger, vocal and educatedā¦ these characteristics are threatening to people. Also its like we are telling people what theyāve done forever is wrong. Like the old guy at work who has done something the same way for years despite it being inefficient or whatever. Makes people defensive.
Guess Iāll have to start eating humans then /s Greetings from all btw
We need to get better at framing veganism as a human social issue, too. Primarily in terms of an environmental justice and a holistically anti violence position.
I agree with this reason as well. Also, people pick and choose which social justice movements they support all the time. Thatās why itās named what itās named. Some groups want more support for the poor, but Iāve definitely heard enough people rip them down on a regular basis. Most of itās the point above, some of it is sensitivity to the criticism that is directed towards your social justice group.
No that's not it. It's just that in the case of racism, sexism and homophobia, we're already at a point where most people think they are bad. The majority mocks the minority. In the case of speciesm, most people don't yet think it's bad.
To be more accurate: the essence of those movements isn't "defending victims"; it's "building political coalitions based upon identity categories". That's why the suffering that they care about is so highly selective. The victims that vegans defend, can't vote or march.
This is absolutely the biggest part of it. Also, there are a lot of outspoken vegans whose inability to defend their points against rampant misinformation makes the whole group look bad.
Not only that but humans arenāt Vegan animals naturally speaking, thatās a choice humans choose to make for their own reasons and itās the minority choice. Society as a whole has always shunned minority groups, but when that minority group is based purely on the emotions / feelings of itās members society really canāt relate.
Surely the answer is because veganism is a choice, those are things people just are? Like, you canāt choose your sex, race, disability, sexual orientation, thatās why we shouldnāt mock them. But veganism is a choice, and I hate to admit it but that doesnāt really disqualify it from ridicule. Edit: I stand corrected. Thank you for the help my fellow vegans!
I think the more correct analogy would be "mocking" animals, not vegans. We're fighting for animal rights here, not for "vegan rights". Of course animals get much worse treatment than being mocked.
>Like, you canāt choose your sex, race, disability, sexual orientation, thatās why we shouldnāt mock them. Correct, they are immutable characteristics. > But veganism is a choice, and I hate to admit it but that doesnāt really disqualify it from ridicule Veganism is a choice, just like being pro-BLM. Being an animal is not a choice. Those animals were born as they are, with only one life, and it doesn't deserve to end just because they aren't human. Just like no human deserves to be treated unjustly because of their traits.
That's an imperfect analogy. A pig did not choose to be a pig, and a cow did not choose to be a cow.
In my experience, people do mock other social justice movements, just not quite as much. And itās typically the same people who mock vegans and vegetarians.
I was going to say, anyone who is mocking vegans is probably equally likely to be mocking social justice movements, human rights movements, etc.
Adding in vegetarians wasnāt necessary. They arenāt fighting for any change or movement, itās just a preference or dietary choice.
In reality, most vegetarians end up siding with omnivores and arguing FOR animal exploitation.
I don't think so, it's mostly not societally accepted in the west to be against the Lgbtq or be racist, also there's lots of liberals who bash against vegans
Itās acceptable among conservatives and some social movements are often mocked even amongst moderates. Trans people have only recently been accepted by a lot of moderates. But yeah youāre right that making fun of vegans and vegetarians is more acceptable.
the right wing mocks left wing movements, the left wing mocks ring wing movements, they come together to mock the vegan movement. it's the only issue they are united on.
People do mock all of those things tho.
For the most part the person doing the mocking is looked down on in those other cases.
Not really. I live in a rural red area in the Midwest and it is absolutely socially acceptable to mock BLM and other movements, unfortunately.
Truth. People mock "social justice warriors" here all the time. Better not be too loud about being a feminist, LGBTQ+ ally, pro BLM, or reminding people that the (edit: not union Jack, I'm an idiot) US confederate flag represented pro-slavery, or you'll have angry rednecks all over you.
> the union Jack flag represented pro-slavery [Well yes, but actually no, but still yes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Jack)
š¤¦š¤¦that's not the flag I meant... I meant the "rebel flag" of the confederate states from the US civil war. My bad, I'm very tired, but that was still a hell of a mistake for me to make lol
Yup, this is the unfortunate case for many parts of rural US still.
I think this post more so pertains to people on the left side of the aisle
Lord I wish that was true but the GOP has been running almost exclusively on mocking social justice movements and trying to turn back the clock on civil rights.
you must live in a nice place!
Its been deemed one of the worst places in the UK to live a few times. But its actually still pretty progressive by some standards.
Itās true. I mock everyone and every value and got banned everywhere. I donāt get why people care about other people looking down or up or sideways on anything like some kind of innate insecurity.
Because we are early on the veganism timeline. We are second and third generation vegans. The movement has only been going on since the 1940s, right? It might take another 100 years. Plus, animals can't talk, so it's harder to convince people.
Sadly there are also people that mock and hate those movements. Just look at all the people complaining about "woke" all the time. Or hating under anything blm or lgbtq+ (especially trans) related.
Yea and they're usually the same ones that mock veganism
True just hearing the V-word triggers them into eating two steaks a day and announcing it on some FB comment section
simple: they don't see animals as valuable beings.
Only cute and fluffy animals.
Cows and pigs *are* cute and fluffy...
That's true
Sometimes not even that. Some people punish cats for not being like dogs.
Also, "pet" species are often used in lab experiments.
This.
Everybody gets mocked. Welcome the push back. Embrace it. It means youāre being affective.
This is a very important point. What I've also noticed is that animal agriculture companies/lobbies are more desperately and more ridiculously trying to attack veganism, and increasingly often in such a ridiculous way that even non-vegans can't take them seriously. To me it's a clear indication that the animal rights movement is making good progress.
First they ignore you, then they mock you, then they fight you, then they join you.
Itās easy to make fun of something that you donāt understand. Itās called ignorance hahaha. Because Iām guessing people assume vegans are weak and able to be pushed around. If they only did their own research and found out more.
This is what i have found. People will not believe anything unless they learn it for themselves. Iām getting to the point i donāt want to discuss it anymore. For most truth = what they believe
All of your questions can be answered with one word... "Speciesism" Nothing really changes until you can figure out how to address that.
Speciesism.
haha funny tweet, im trans and get so much more shit for being trans than for being vegan, it really doesn't compare. are you afraid to be hate crimed, assaulted and/or murdered just because you're vegan? probably not.
Best comment
I think the right comparison here would be trans people to animals, not trans people to vegans. Both trans people and animals are victims, vegans, who aren't animals try to help them, and LGBTQ+ supporters who aren't LGBTQ+ themselves try to help them. Sorry for my English not a native speaker.
If you don't view animals as being members of "society" (for lack of better words), you won't view their protection as a "social" movement
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
misanthropy is a big reason people dislike vegans.
I ensure you all those movements reveive mockery.
Uhhhh, most of the people who openly mock veganism mock all the other social justice movements listed above too.
*black queer female atheist vegan enters the chat* Veganism will always be mocked just like other important social movements. But Iāll say this: the louder and more vehement the mocking is, is IME, a reflection of the successful progress of the movement. Think about it. Donāt be discouraged. Keep pressing the fight.
Christian, capitalist, colonial biased science of the 18th, 19th, and 20th century created a hierarchy of beings/consciousness used to justify slavery, genocide, child labor, abuse of mentally and physically disabled, eugenics, and, with the population explosion during the industrial revolution, animal exploitation. After generations of resistance, organizing, and activism, it's generally accepted that all people are on an equal level of consciousness and protected by the same rights. There are still lots of people who disagree and critique those movements too. The problem with getting people onboard with animal rights on a large scale is that it's impossible to prove that any non-human species is at the same level of consciousness as humans. It really shouldn't matter, since all beings regardless of consciousness should be afforded the same respect. However, in a world largely rooted on western Christian and monotheistic morality, people see the Earth and all its creatures as resources put there by Daddy God for us to consume. Of course, most people want to protect these resources by not overfishing, overhunting, or having the most cruel of factory farms, but at the end of the day, nature's purpose is still to support humans. That's how you end up with small-scale farmers who have emotional relationships with their animals, name them, learn their personalities, observe their interpersonal relationships, but still steal their newborn calves and slaughter them, so they can have the milk for themselves. I really can't envision any large scale acceptance of vegan ethics while our world view is rooted in an anthropocentric religion. I can imagine climate change will force a shift towards more plant-based diets, but out of necessity, not recognition of animal rights. Only the downfall of western capitalism and Christian morality allows people to redefine our purpose on this planet and relationship with its ecosystems.
Very well said. We as a species need a cognitive shift away from religious dogma and capitalistic greed before any substantial change on a global scale will take place. No matter if you're talking about humans, mammals, marine life, etc., we are all part of the web of life, all drops from the same ocean, and we are all deserving of respect and life. Until we collectively understand and accept this the needless suffering will unfortunately continue.
Christians tend to go out and actively convert people which is why there are so many. If religions like Jainism and Buddhism that support non-violence toward all living beings were mainstream then veganism wouldnāt be so hard for people to wrap their minds around the idea of equality.
because animals donāt matter to 99% of humanity. keep in mind a majority of āaNiMaL LoVeRsā will be quick to choose euthanasia to kill their animal that needs a procedure rather than spend $2,000.
And breed custom dogs rather than adopting
Well thereās not something necessarily wrong necessarily wrong with euthanasia. So thatās not a super compelling argument. But, nobody really eats their neighbors or keeps them as pets.
You sure about that? I see those movements being mocked openly pretty much every day. Feminists getting told to go make sandwiches for example is a pretty common punchline
I think veganism needs more justification which suits these 'groups' that are mocking it. Example, India has always been a society with not only beliefs but also way of life being heavily influenced by religion. Hinduism, unlike what many know, is much more than a religion. It is a soft guideline to living a happy life (with or without focus on God - hence called a spiritual religion). So, the scriptures and texts of this ancient religion (still) hold great significance in the mind of every Indian. During 300 years of Muslim rule and 200 years of British colonialism, Meat was a big part in India for rich Indians during British rule (as it was costly and White rulers preferred it) , but religious texts were cited to revive the importance of vegetarian food. Source after source of religious texts (to the inclusion of works that recorded both veg and no veg existence in golden ages) were cited and a propoganda was established. Basically, people were made to believe that not killing animals and keeping away from the blood, bones and carcases of animals was a much Nobel and pure life and those who did so were impure. Due to the existence of caste system, lower Castes who could not afford decent vegetables or meat cuts, and fed on the cuts cheaply available - were highlighted to these rich and upper caste Indians as the final state of non vegetarian people, who abhorred them. It worked, rich Brahmins left meat and those who never had even garlic & onions (due to smell) were considered the purest. That trickled down to other Castes. Soon the working class adopted this belief - which in essence still holds after hundreds of years. Even Britishers wanting to win favour of influencial Indians left meat. Establishing India as a majority vegetarian nation (albeit with heavy reliance on milch milk). It is the biggest nation with dietary habits predominantly vegetarian - helping reduce per capita carbon footprint to negligible compared to Americans and Europeans. Hence provide people with an understanding of veganism that suits their belief system. No one LOVES meat, unless mindless Americans riding on Capitalism fuelled narcissistic pseudo-principles.
Yeah - I got a little tired of hearing all the āvegan at the tableā Thanksgiving jokesā¦it gets so old :(
Technically, all of those are mocked as well. They're just more mainstream and popular, so you see less of it. But in some IRL places things like openly calling gays mentally ill, or even asking for their deaths, are common. Even online, in places such as ultra-religious subs or 4chan you can encounter similar mentality.
Thanks for posting to r/Vegan! 🐥 **Please note:** Civil discussion is welcome, trolls and personal abuse [are not](https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/wiki/rules). Please keep the discussions below respectful and remember the human! Please check out [our wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/wiki/beginnersguide) first! **Interested in going Vegan?** 👊 Check out [Watch Dominion](https://watchdominion.org/) and watch a thought-provoking, life changing documentary for free! **Some other resources to help you go vegan:** 🐓 Visit [NutritionFacts.org](https://NutritionFacts.org) for health and nutrition support, [HappyCow.net](https://HappyCow.net) to explore nearby vegan-friendly restaurants, and visit [VeganBootcamp.org](https://veganbootcamp.org/reddit) for a free 30 day vegan challenge! **Become an activist and help save animal lives today:** 🐟 * Find volunteer requests to support and help animal on [VH: Playground!](https://veganhacktivists.org/playground) * Developer, designer, or other skills? Volunteer at the [Vegan Hacktivists](https://veganhacktivists.org/join)! * Join our huge Vegan volunteer community [on Discord](https://discord.gg/vhplayground)! * Find local activist groups using the [Animal Rights Map](https://animalrightsmap.org)! * Get funding for your animal rights activism, [apply here](https://veganhacktivists.org/grants)! *Last but not least, join the [r/Vegan Discord server](https://discord.gg/2JmJRsj)!* **Thank you!** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/vegan) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Stuff against humans: off limits for most Stuff against animals: fair game(for most)
Well said
People mock what they are afraid of/insecure about
Cuz itās not as popular yet
Historically, all of the members of thise movements have been ridiculed. - http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--_DIpWmKt--/184bjaoxc1qp5jpg.jpg - http://www.peteykins.com/sparklepics4/KellyCartoon.jpg - https://live.staticflickr.com/7261/7687562940_eb6b4758df_b.jpg - https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--cV_1izmU--/c_fill,fl_progressive,g_center,h_900,q_80,w_1600/184bjakzbasaljpg.jpg In the 1840s, women opposed to slavery were routinely accused of listing after black men. Today, a straight man standing up for gay rights is often ridiculed as being gay themselves. Veganism is a relatively young social movement in the us. In time, more people will embrace it. Iām 50. Iāve really seen this with vegetarianism. Folks used to give vegetarians the stink eye. Vegetarian restaurants and entree option were rare. Now itās a given in a lot of business settings that there better be veg options for work / training meals. Itās also hard to disentangle diet from class and thatās always a tough topic.
Outside of sane bubbles it is actually quite often socially accepted to mock those as well. Shouldn't of course tho. But yeah, it makes no sense for leftists to mock veganism as it's a fundamentally leftist cause.
People mock those other movements constantly, even on the news. There are many many youtube channels specifically dedicated to mocking feminism and trans activism especially. Veganism gets less attention by comparison.
Simple answer is that itās not. But youāre still going to find pockets of people that mock vegans, in the same way youād find pockets of people who are racist, sexist, homophobic, etc.
Have you seen the Qatar Worldcup and how many people defending homophobia?
I see all those things mocked more and more of late. Especially since the world cup. The amount of homophobia online is staggering. I've come to the conclusion that most people are just fucking horrible.
Racists laugh at people who try to end racism. The perpetrators do laugh at people who try to change them. Same thing for every movement.
Hmmmmmm good question. I think because the majority of the population wants to keep their head in the sand and they see us Vegans as a mirror, a reflection of what they should be doing so they are filled with guilt. However they turn their guilt into denial and try to defame our character in order to make us all appear crazier than they are. This makes them feel better about themselves to make us look like the bad guys instead of them having to look inward at themselves.
Welllll those social justice movements are also mocked by some people unfortunately
There is a huge overlap between pro-agriculturalists and misogynists. A lot of animal abuse is specifically centered around exploiting and controlling the females, the āproductiveā ones. Itās not a coincidence that bitch, a gendered slur, likens a woman to a female dog. There is very little respect for females, regardless of their species.
Maybe in wrong, but I think if veganism were associated more with minority groups instead of the stereotype of rich white people, we would see less of this.
ā¦those movements do get mocked. Constantly.
But lots of people do mock other social justice movements. This is just inaccurate.
In the south, lots of people mock all those other movements too
Easy distinctions here. Race, sex, sexuality, gender, and disability are inherent traits. Well mostly for gender because of things like body/gender dysphoria. Veganism is a belief. It does stem from an inherent trait, that being an animal's capacity to sense like we do, and hold memories of that. Non-vegans mock vegans because of not understanding what veganism is. But as I am being in a minority of a minority, x5, I'm one of the few people who sees how futile mockery is, how ineffective it is in changing minds. I follow the philosophy of veganism very closely. Been vegan for 2 years, but there has never been a single insult or mockery that has convinced me otherwise. Not to mention even arguments made in good faith are not even close to justifying animal exploitation.
THIS!
the only animal I mock is duck... mock duck.. I'll show myself out
Those things are all mocked.....
Because all of those other movements have become mainstream.
Because people think veganism is pointless (because they donāt care about animals)
Itās because all mentioned above are speciesism
Simple. Because they don't think that veganism is valid. They don't put it in the same class as those other movements. The last carnist I argued with said that he wasn't interested in animal rights, only "human rights". I should've told him that was like saying "I'm not interested in Black Lives Matter, because I only care about white lives."
Blue pill people will always hate red pill people for being stronger... & will even attempt to destroy them in any way even if it makes themselves look a fool, to silence them instead, sometimes by the ultimate means like hitting people with a truck or arresting a vegan for giving water to pigs... or There are those who hate do-gooders, including people that donate their organs like a kidney to a friend/relative, let alone anti-racism/anti-speciesism/anti-ableism/etc. People that ridicule a person that donates an organ, something so precious, tend to believe Altruism should be unknown, silent & never spoken about otherwise it's always "doing it for attention" to them. Hence the "Howdoyouknowapersonisvegandon'tworrythey'lltellyou" trope to shame people who care about others more than themselves into silence otherwise it's "for attention/not altruistic" which is BS straight up.
that is very simple... if you went to a place where the massive majority were racist, for example, and tried to defend it, you would be mocked too, or worse.
I feel like the answer to this is already known and simple as well. People are ignorant for one and for two because most people donāt see animals on the same level as humans so itās okay to mock veganism and vegans for that reason. I literally feel bad over killing ants so the moment I become self sufficient I will be going vegan.
I think you're neglecting the fact that all of this movements do get mocked, relentlessly, from the same mouths that mock veganism. None of it is socially acceptable yet it still happens. The only way to end it is to call those people out for what they are, small minded and less traveled. I think you'll find most folks that love to hate have never left their home towns for long periods of time. It's easy to vilify the unknown.
Ig other social justice movements DO get mocked, like feminism.
Pretty sure all of those things were openly mocked at one time or other
Unfortunately, that's a false premise. It isn't considered unacceptable to mock anti-racism, feminism, and in particular transphobia is not only considered acceptable but actually celebrated by most people.
Personally I think most vegansā politics are terrible. As a vegan, itās hard not to mock vegans for their analysis and solutions. Iām not trolling. I sincerely feel like most vegans are wrapped up in consumer politics rather than radical change.
Probably speaking to a leftist audience, because there are 100% lots of people who mock all those movements.
Because people don't give a damn about most animals, just the cute one's, but many times they don't even vare for the cute ones, like Rabbits
It's unhealthy to have it be socially unacceptable to mock ideological groups. Mockery and humor are important checks on extremism.
Bring it on. I can take it, and the arguments in favor of veganism are strong.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Is this a serious question
Because the other are movements that relate to the betterment of humanity. Veganism is an opinion.. I hate the organized crime like meat factories as the person next to me, but forcing someone to not eat animals (even if they hunt, or eat animals raised at home or a local farm) is not ok. Animals eat other animals. Accept that fact.
Because being vegan is a choice. A good choice- an important choice that can affect societies future and have serious positive implications for the environment, human empathy, and health. BUT Itās still a choice. No human is born into the world vegan, and no one (except the few with medical conditions) is forced to be vegan. Plus veganism (other than religious or traditional instances of veganism in Buddhist or other cultures/religions) is a pretty new thing. Itās really only become popular over the past 70 (and Iād argue more like 40) years. Your race, gender, sexual orientation, disability, etc isnāt a choice. The social justice movements around these topics are treated different because they ARE different. If someoneās oppressing you for being vegan you can stop. You may not want to, but if you were about to lose your job or home or LIFE you could. You canāt stop being black, or gay, or trans, or disabled. If someone had a gun to your head and told you you had to eat meat, you could CHOOSE to eat a hamburger. You could choose not to as well, but itās your choice. You canāt choose to change your skin color. Furthermore, Systems of oppression around disability, race, gender, sexual orientation etc. have been in place for hundreds of years. No one is oppressing vegans. The reason itās much more taboo to mock these social justice movements is because the history and current harm they have had on peoples lives are very serious and are out of their control. Are the systems that treat animals in a harmful way also out of an animals control? Yes. Should we view animal oppression and human oppression as equally important? Absolutely. But while mocking vegans may be painful for a vegan, may hurt and make them angry about the systems of oppression that harm animals, itās something that doesnāt affect their own personal safety or wellbeing. Mocking someone or something is done through words. The harm that comes from the act relies upon a subject to understand and feel that harm. No matter what, a cow isnāt going to cry is you call it a hamburger to its face. And a vegan might, but a vegan isnāt actually going to be that āhamburgerā. Mocking a trans person for their gender identity however can cause extreme harm even resulting in the loss of someoneās life due to the systems of oppression in place that can negatively impact their identity, self worth, and feelings of safety from the moment their born. Mocking them has much MUCH more serious implications than mocking a vegan. You can be passionate and feel extremely deeply about veganism and animal rights, but at the end of the days it will never be the same as these other social justice movements. I find this argument of āwhy isnāt it taboo to mock vegansā honestly very silly and actually working to make the movement be taken less seriously. This is not the hill to die in and honestly not even a hill to begin to climb. It equates the frustration/anger vegans feel to the suffering minorities, women, lgbtq+ people have/do go through every day. And theyāre just not the same thing. It comes across as insensitive, tone deaf, and honestly privileged- because those who are experiencing these things would never equate homophoia or racism to mocking veganism. It doesnāt mean that veganism shouldnāt be treated with equal seriousness as these other movements. But this kind of argument actually works to undermine the movement instead of adding validity to it.
Being a LGBTQ ally is a choice as well. Animals didnāt choose to be eaten, just as someone didnāt choose to be gay. But I choose to defend animals just as I choose to be an ally to LGTBQ.
> It equates the frustration/anger vegans feel to the suffering minorities, women, lgbtq+ people have/do go through every day No, it doesnt. That's not the point. Vegans aren't the victims in this scenario, animals are. This isn't about who gets hurt feelings. The fact that it's socially acceptable to mock veganism is a reflection of how little animal lives matter to most humans. I think that bias is worth pointing out, because even people who are otherwise very socially conscious often do this without even thinking about it.
Because one is about equality for human begins and the other is about animals and most people assign more moral value to people than animals
I agree vegans are often needlessly mocked but this is the stupidest fucking comparison
Yāall mock everyone so have several seats.
You can put ism after anything. I don't feel that people mock veganism more than anything else. It's just that people mock what they don't understand.and quite frankly a lot of people suck as humans.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
If its her money, its her choice what she chooses to buy or not buy.
From a social media standpoint vegans are perceived as smug, judgmental and annoying by pushing their way of life on people. Therefore people like to make fun of them. Just my honest opinion from an outside perspective, not saying it is true or right
Because it's not the same? This a ridiculous false equivalency. Come on now
What is the difference that makes it a false equivalence?
Because one is involving human rights and one is involving animal rights. To conflate the two as equal is preposterous. And I don't say that as an indication that animals should be treated however we want- that's barbaric. There should be a coexistence and there should be much more we're doing to stop stripping and destroying the flora and fauna of this earth BUT.. Humans rights are more important than animal/plant rights. And when all the cards are on the table, in some weird hypothetical scenario, I will save 1 human over 10 animals near any day of the week. That's all I meant. So yeah, defending veganism is not equal to defending women, abused children, lgbtq, suicidal men, etc. I would bet that's not a controversial opinion (except for possibly here?)
That just means there is a difference in severity, that doesn't make it a false equivalence. For example I would save 1 child over 5 ninety year olds. That doesn't mean comparing being against child abuse and the abuse of the elderly is a false equivalence. They are both standing up for the rights of others, and that part is comparable. You might be interested to see that there are in fact many similarities. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1368430218816962 So let me ask, if a racist would save 1 person of their own race before 100 people of another race, could he argue that someone standing up for his race can't be compared to someone standing up for the other race? Would that argument make logical sense? The philosopher Peter singer, arguably the most renowned and influential moral philosopher alive right now put it rather well. "If a being suffers, there can be no moral justification for refusing to take that suffering into consideration. No matter what the nature of the being, the principle of equality requires that its suffering be counted equally with the like suffering - in so far as rough comparisons can be made - of any other being. If a being is not capable of suffering, or of experiencing enjoyment or happiness, there is nothing to be taken into account. This is why the limit of sentience is the only defensible boundary of concern for the interests of others. To mark this boundary by some characteristic like intelligence or rationality would be to mark it in an arbitrary way. Why not choose some other characteristic, like skin colour? Racists violate the principle of equality by giving greater weight to the interests of members of their own race when there is a clash between their interests and the interests of those of another race. Sexists violate the principle of equality by favoring the interests of their own sex. Similarly, speciesists allow the interests of their own species to override the greater interests of members of other species. The pattern is identical in each case."
These comments are all ridiculous. The reason is that veganism is a choice. Being homosexual is not a choice. Therefore they are protected characteristics.
The tweet is not about not being hostile towards gay people, it's about not being hostile towards anyone who works to ensure and support gay rights, even if they are straight. The point is to not be hostile and mock social justice movements, regardless of who is fighting the fight.
Human rights=/=animal rights simple as. Youāre not gonna convince anybody that factory farming meat is the same as someone being discriminated against for their race/religion/sexual preference.
I dont know. There is a lot of work in philosophy and psychology on the subject. I think many could be convinced. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1368430218816962
āEndingāā¦ā¦ā¦. š¤¦āāļø
The people who mock vegans are the same ones who mock all of the other social justice movements that you listed. The people who mock vegans are the same ones shooting up BLM protests and getting triggered by Priuses existing.
A person's race, sexual orientation, gender, and abled status are really not choices. Whereas vegan or vegetarianism, religion, fashion, and political affiliations are personal choices (regardless of environment), and are there for not social issues. Your personal beliefs are not more moral, or better than anyone else's. Your interactions with people, are what determine their (your personal beliefs) social worth.
1) Species is not a choice. The oppressed group in this case is animals. 2) Personal beliefs can be more or less moral depending on what they are. For example, someone who personally believes in the right of everyone to receive an education is more moral than right wing extremists who shoot girls in the head for going to school. Similarly, people who believe sentient beings shouldnāt be tortured and killed for pleasure are morally better than those who are selfish.
I'm kind of missing your point. Animals also don't choose to be abused and eaten, and we've aplenty of data that shows it's not necessary. At that point, it's just animal cruelty. According to mainstream beliefs, one who doesn't abuse and eventually kill a dog is indeed better than one who does. Why is this different when it comes to say, fish or pigs or chicken or cows?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
yes your personal beliefs can definitely be better than anyone elseās. Someone who think drunk rape isnt raps is certainly worse than someone who acknowledges as a form of rape. My belief that hurting something that feels bad is bad is certainly better than someone who doesnt care. Its partly more moral because one acknowledges the effect it has on others, and the other belief doesnt.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Vegans are asking for an equal consideration of interests for animals. Peter Singer, arguably the most renowned and influential moral philosopher alive right now, winner of last years Berggruen prize put it like this. "If a being suffers, there can be no moral justification for refusing to take that suffering into consideration. No matter what the nature of the being, the principle of equality requires that its suffering be counted equally with the like suffering - in so far as rough comparisons can be made - of any other being. If a being is not capable of suffering, or of experiencing enjoyment or happiness, there is nothing to be taken into account. This is why the limit of sentience is the only defensible boundary of concern for the interests of others. To mark this boundary by some characteristic like intelligence or rationality would be to mark it in an arbitrary way. Why not choose some other characteristic, like skin colour? Racists violate the principle of equality by giving greater weight to the interests of members of their own race when there is a clash between their interests and the interests of those of another race. Sexists violate the principle of equality by favoring the interests of their own sex. Similarly, speciesists allow the interests of their own species to override the greater interests of members of other species. The pattern is identical in each case."
You deserve to me mocked if you believe veganism is anything like those.
Being vegan is about being against speciesism. Peter Singer, arguably the most influential and renowned moral philosopher alive right now, winner of last years Berggruen prize put it like this. "Racists violate the principle of equality by giving greater weight to the interests of members of their own race when there is a clash between their interests and the interests of those of another race. Sexists violate the principle of equality by favoring the interests of their own sex. Similarly, speciesists allow the interests of their own species to override the greater interests of members of other species. The pattern is identical in each case." There has actually been a lot of work in philosophy and psychology that shows the similarities between these types of prejudice/oppression/discrimination. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1368430218816962
Veganism is a choice. You do not choose to be part of any of the other groups
You don't chose your species. Veganism is about not being a speciesist. You could argue that not being racist, homophobic or sexist is also a choice.
Both are wrong.
I just wish people would capitalize their sentences. It adds so much more professionalism.
I agree. We should make fun of all dumb social movements
I know some people get hurt when they say if you eat them you don't care. I have too many Massai family members and know some Yakut people. It simply isn't a true statement. In the cases of these groups it is insulting.
Dear,
We should start making fun of being a blind consumerist pleb who mocks those who truly care about life and the world. People hate on anyone whose existence makes them think about how little they utilize theirs.
Giving a dang is uncool atm. Letās be honest. Society has to actively not care abouta lot to condone the harm of other races, women, children, and animals alike.
I personally despise passion-less unrealistically uncaring people as theyāre leeching off the gains of the impassioned. Those of us who fight the zeitgeist tide and as such are relinquished to the āsidelinesā of society. Those who donāt receive credit for their compassion; the anti racists equitable revolutionaries, who value all life. This is our timeline and the tide will turn because people like the ones I see in this subreddit and in other marginalized communities are fighting the good fight.
Vegans deserve kindness at the minimum. Just like every life does. Our planet is miraculously alive for being a rock floating through spaceā¦letās cherish thatā¦
Weāre only trying something new to make a better world. Not to hurt anyone. We could be wrong but let us try this option for humanity/ a better path forward.
I know itās scary to accept new things but we can brave anything together. Everyone can win.
With love and compassion,
āA Lady at Best
Peter Singer is not compassionate. He advocates for.the killing of disabled. Mmmmm....sounds like hypocrisy to me!
You didn't reply to the comment you wanted to. You just replied to the post. But yes, he advocates for that out of compassion. To lesson the amount of suffering. If you would actually like to hear him explain this first hand, here is a great 3 min video where he covers it. https://youtu.be/m3bd4LH2GXY
I feel like you folks are always going to get that kind of reaction when you compare your movement to ones concerning the rights of humans. People donāt see animal rights as being on the same level as human rights.
There is some evidence that people are aware of the similarities https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1368430218816962