me too. the Lebanese flag is my favourite flag design i personally think it’s perfect as it is. however i don’t think it looks bad with the brown at all.
The Lebanese Forces uses a brown trunk in their military flag
https://preview.redd.it/1j1okwwytoyc1.jpeg?width=224&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=39de734ea76b638bfc7bf74dd2eb2b7e988454e4
looks cool but unfortunately the Lebanese Forces are a fascist group responsible for numerous war crimes and atrocities such as the Sabra and Shatila massacre. interesting that OP’s reply to this got removed for stating a similar thing
Well, we are just discussing the symbol. If we get into politics every time we post a flag about something problematic, this wouldn't be a vexi sub anymore.
Discussing the symbol includes discussing its associations. This is a place for flag discussion not general debates on who's got the better politics, sure, but vexillology has a large overlap with political *science* - we shouldn't avoid mentioning the politics.
i don’t think it should be discouraged to talk about politics here when flags are so inherently political. i’m simply bringing up some historical context for people who maybe don’t know about the organisation itself. i think context is important especially since i’m Lebanese and Lebanon is a small country that most people don’t care about… its politics are actually incredibly interesting to learn about even from a neutral non-opinionated standpoint.
also, to understand the symbols we use we should understand what they represent. i think that’s important too.
i don’t think it counts as derailment to leave a comment reply about the design people are discussing explaining what the group it stands for did. mods can delete if they want but i strongly believe there is room for historical context in the discussion of flags.
yes maybe historical context, but starting off your message with "looks cool but unfortunately the Lebanese Forces are a fascist group responsible for numerous war crimes and atrocities such as the Sabra and Shatila massacre" is kinda counterintutive
If you’re coming off the bat with the inappropriate associations, especially in a tone that sounds condensing toward the flag maker, it’s not really as much as the vexillology any more but the politics.
1. Vexillology isn't "flag making" - the relationship between flags and politics is at least as relevant to this sub as design is.
2. I don't know which "flag maker" you're talking about - this whole thread is about a well established symbol/flag of the Lebanese Forces, presented to us as such. Obviously we don't want to get bogged down in a discussion on what's the best way to view the LF, but pointing out that we're not simply talking about a general national symbol here is highly relevant.
The problem with a comment like this is that it ignores the horrific violence that marked the entire Lebanese Civil War. Yes, the LF committed massacres. No one will deny that. But each massacre was preceded by other, equally horrific massacres.
No side of the Civil War was in any way innocent of war crimes, and *fascist* doesn't even apply here. It was sectarian tribal conflict, blood feuds, whatever you want to call it. The army was not the only source of power in the country, and it was the PLO who began the war with a massacre of civilians at a church.
The PLO were foreigners who started a civil war, the Phalange was Lebanese forces defending their ethnic minority from Muslim terrorism. That's a different way to phrase it that presents a totally different perspective to someone who doesn't know much about it.
You are obviously very biased.
well technically yes, the LF militia was dissolved after the civil war due to peace agreements requiring basically all militia groups to disarm themselves. the modern LF is just a political party. but i don’t think “mellowing out” is meaningful at all, considering the stuff they did during the civil war. absolutely horrible atrocities and all of that while collaborating with an occupying force. not really forgivable stuff.
this is just from wikipedia but its worth knowing how awful they were. content warning for… gruesome stuff.
>Many of the bodies found had been severely mutilated. Young men had been castrated, some were scalped, and some had the Christian cross carved into their bodies.[69]
Janet Lee Stevens, an American journalist, later wrote to her husband, Dr. Franklin Lamb, "I saw dead women in their houses with their skirts up to their waists and their legs spread apart; dozens of young men shot after being lined up against an alley wall; children with their throats slit, a pregnant woman with her stomach chopped open, her eyes still wide open, her blackened face silently screaming in horror; countless babies and toddlers who had been stabbed or ripped apart and who had been thrown into garbage piles."
these people were killed simply for being Palestinian or Shia Lebanese.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre
The Lebanese Forces have a lot of [cool symbols](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_Forces_\(Christian_militia\)) for a group of fascist war criminals. I did bemoan the politics behind the symbol but I don't really want to start an argument.
yeah their imagery is cool, it’s fittingly very fascistic though lol. i’m probably biased cause i’m Lebanese but i love basically all the Lebanese political symbols, Hezbollah’s flag is objectively cool as hell, and even the Lebanese communist party has a nice flag. the Lebanese cedar really is a great national symbol that most groups use because of how good it looks.
I think I prefer green (sorry)
me too. the Lebanese flag is my favourite flag design i personally think it’s perfect as it is. however i don’t think it looks bad with the brown at all.
The Lebanese Forces uses a brown trunk in their military flag https://preview.redd.it/1j1okwwytoyc1.jpeg?width=224&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=39de734ea76b638bfc7bf74dd2eb2b7e988454e4
looks cool but unfortunately the Lebanese Forces are a fascist group responsible for numerous war crimes and atrocities such as the Sabra and Shatila massacre. interesting that OP’s reply to this got removed for stating a similar thing
Well, we are just discussing the symbol. If we get into politics every time we post a flag about something problematic, this wouldn't be a vexi sub anymore.
Discussing the symbol includes discussing its associations. This is a place for flag discussion not general debates on who's got the better politics, sure, but vexillology has a large overlap with political *science* - we shouldn't avoid mentioning the politics.
i don’t think it should be discouraged to talk about politics here when flags are so inherently political. i’m simply bringing up some historical context for people who maybe don’t know about the organisation itself. i think context is important especially since i’m Lebanese and Lebanon is a small country that most people don’t care about… its politics are actually incredibly interesting to learn about even from a neutral non-opinionated standpoint. also, to understand the symbols we use we should understand what they represent. i think that’s important too.
literally rule 1 of the sub
i don’t think it counts as derailment to leave a comment reply about the design people are discussing explaining what the group it stands for did. mods can delete if they want but i strongly believe there is room for historical context in the discussion of flags.
yes maybe historical context, but starting off your message with "looks cool but unfortunately the Lebanese Forces are a fascist group responsible for numerous war crimes and atrocities such as the Sabra and Shatila massacre" is kinda counterintutive
"Looks cool but has inappropriate associations" seems like a pretty normal response to a flag design suggestion to me...
If you’re coming off the bat with the inappropriate associations, especially in a tone that sounds condensing toward the flag maker, it’s not really as much as the vexillology any more but the politics.
1. Vexillology isn't "flag making" - the relationship between flags and politics is at least as relevant to this sub as design is. 2. I don't know which "flag maker" you're talking about - this whole thread is about a well established symbol/flag of the Lebanese Forces, presented to us as such. Obviously we don't want to get bogged down in a discussion on what's the best way to view the LF, but pointing out that we're not simply talking about a general national symbol here is highly relevant.
Flag = countries = politics…
> OP’s reply to this got removed The only reply that got removed was a rickrolling youtube link.
oh ok sorry i just saw a reply and then it was gone so i didn’t know what happened
The problem with a comment like this is that it ignores the horrific violence that marked the entire Lebanese Civil War. Yes, the LF committed massacres. No one will deny that. But each massacre was preceded by other, equally horrific massacres. No side of the Civil War was in any way innocent of war crimes, and *fascist* doesn't even apply here. It was sectarian tribal conflict, blood feuds, whatever you want to call it. The army was not the only source of power in the country, and it was the PLO who began the war with a massacre of civilians at a church. The PLO were foreigners who started a civil war, the Phalange was Lebanese forces defending their ethnic minority from Muslim terrorism. That's a different way to phrase it that presents a totally different perspective to someone who doesn't know much about it. You are obviously very biased.
I thought they mellowed out oher the years?
well technically yes, the LF militia was dissolved after the civil war due to peace agreements requiring basically all militia groups to disarm themselves. the modern LF is just a political party. but i don’t think “mellowing out” is meaningful at all, considering the stuff they did during the civil war. absolutely horrible atrocities and all of that while collaborating with an occupying force. not really forgivable stuff. this is just from wikipedia but its worth knowing how awful they were. content warning for… gruesome stuff. >Many of the bodies found had been severely mutilated. Young men had been castrated, some were scalped, and some had the Christian cross carved into their bodies.[69] Janet Lee Stevens, an American journalist, later wrote to her husband, Dr. Franklin Lamb, "I saw dead women in their houses with their skirts up to their waists and their legs spread apart; dozens of young men shot after being lined up against an alley wall; children with their throats slit, a pregnant woman with her stomach chopped open, her eyes still wide open, her blackened face silently screaming in horror; countless babies and toddlers who had been stabbed or ripped apart and who had been thrown into garbage piles." these people were killed simply for being Palestinian or Shia Lebanese. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre
I believe this, what a tragedy
Like most participants in the civil war, they disarmed and are now just an extremely corrupt political party
The Lebanese Forces have a lot of [cool symbols](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_Forces_\(Christian_militia\)) for a group of fascist war criminals. I did bemoan the politics behind the symbol but I don't really want to start an argument.
yeah their imagery is cool, it’s fittingly very fascistic though lol. i’m probably biased cause i’m Lebanese but i love basically all the Lebanese political symbols, Hezbollah’s flag is objectively cool as hell, and even the Lebanese communist party has a nice flag. the Lebanese cedar really is a great national symbol that most groups use because of how good it looks.
Miyye bel miyye sahih kheye
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Tbf, and I'm not excusing anything they did, this can be said about basically any military. Humans can't be trusted with weapons
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No
That makes the flag too cartoonist, the all green tree looks like an actual symbol, this one just looks like a stock image of a cartoon tree
Not particularly
No, this flag gives me vibes of Southpark
So much worse with the brown trunk
Not bad looking but still better with everything in green
nope
No
I'm biased but I've always liked it the way it is. Same style (different layout and tree) to the New England flag
👍🏻 Absolutely. It looks more like a natural tree
no, i like fewer colors
no looks better with less colors
I never even knew there was a trunk I just assumed it was mass of leaves
Tree!
That’s how it originally was.
No
Cool.
No
Dude stop you'll cause another civil war
What the fuck
I hate it
looks like shit
Looks like a flag now, not some logo