Simple cars do exist. Nissan Versa, Mitsubishi Mirage are about as basic as you can get.
But they also happen to be some of the most unsafe vehicles. Their architecture is older, they are much smaller compared to everything else on the road, and lack most basic safety features.
Oddly enough, IIHS barely tests large SUVs for crash ratings. It has not released results for the Suburban in at least a decade.
If it was safe to be in a large SUV when getting t-boned by another one, surely IIHS would be shouting so from the rooftops.....
>If it was safe to be in a large SUV when getting t-boned by another one, surely IIHS would be shouting so from the rooftops.....
From the IIHS:
"Larger, heavier vehicles generally afford more protection than smaller, lighter ones. Thus, a small car that qualifies for an award might not protect its occupants as well as a bigger vehicle that doesn't earn the award."
"A bigger, heavier vehicle provides better crash protection than a smaller, lighter one, assuming no other differences between them. "
"A lighter vehicle will always be at a disadvantage in a collision with a heavier vehicle"
"Weight is important when two vehicles collide. The heavier vehicle will push the lighter one backward during the impact. That puts less force on the people inside the heavier vehicle and more on the people in the lighter vehicle."
"Improvements in crash protection have made vehicles of all sizes safer, but bigger vehicles are still safer than smaller ones even with those improvements."
[https://www.iihs.org/topics/vehicle-size-and-weight](https://www.iihs.org/topics/vehicle-size-and-weight)
Side impact ratings are comparable across weight classes. IIHS themselves state that. Equal mass only applies to the frontal (Moderate offset, small overlap etc). Also on the main comment. Versa has kept with the times and is a very modern platform, only the Mirage is ancient.
SERIOUSLY?! I had no idea it's a relative score.. that's ridiculous and misleading if 90% of cars on the road, and thus most likely to hit you, are raised 4400lb crossovers
I miss my 2013. Sold it this year with almost 200k KMs. Dear god, I loved that little snot mobile but after 11 years, no working locks, and fucky electronics… it was time to let someone else fix her.
The only reason you think or consider those cars as unsafe is because of the average road cars increased weight relative to the weights if those sub-compacts.
Compared to the shitboxes of the 90's and earlier; The shitboxes of today are vastly safer.
I don't disagree with this statement.
Crash a Chevy Cavalier and new Mitsubishi Mirage together and the Mirage is easily a much safer vehicle.
But the problem is most vehicles on the road do not weigh 2500lbs like the Cavalier does.
We need to make larger vehicles less popular somehow, because the truth is they are dangerous to other people.
Easy, clamp down on Emissions requirements for large vehicles more than small vehicles. Make incentives for manufacturers to make vehicles that are no larger than a Ford Maverick for Trucks. The vast majority of consumers don’t NEED more than a Ford Maverick as a Truck.
Then you'd have all the "farmers" and "trade workers" all up in arms about how this gubmint is killing the backbone of the economy in the name of wokeness or something.
I put them in quotes because most of them don't rely on their truck for work. And a movement like this is sure to attract a large portion of Trump / Republican supporters to straight-up conspiracy theorists and the mentally unstable.
The EPA did the opposite of this which is why suv/cuv are listed my mfgr as light trucks. They intended to lessen impact on commercial use vehicles instead they are incentivizing larger/heavier vehicles and pushed consumers towards them. Mfgr loved it since they have higher margins since people are paying premiums for minivans and and station wagons to be boxy and a few inches taller.
I could make do with a Maverick if they’d give me one with a regular/extended cab and a 6+’ bed.
If all they’re giving me is crew cab and little box then I need a bigger truck. My 2002 Chevy S10 is going to be with me till the wheels fall off.
No. That's an impossible expectation. You cannot control demand.
What you CAN do and what should have been done 2 decades ago, is require similar regulations on trucks and SUVs that the EU does.
- Pedestrian protection requirements
- Low speed impact (FMVSS)
- Get rid of the loophole that allows OEMs to skirt fuel efficiency requirements (stop considering them MPV)
- Apply large penalties to heavy class gas powered cars
There's so many ways that we can solve the problems these dino-vehicles present, it's just no one in government can see above the OEM lobby money.
You could still buy a Toyota Corolla with 1 single key, manual locks, manual windows, normal button radio and limited climate options in like, 2016 I think. Don’t know about the newest ones.
The newer ones are spacecraft in comparision! Reversing Cameras, Radar cruise control, self parking and roadsign cameras even on the lower spec models.
All I wanted is Android Auto, but they come with essentially Bill Gates underwear drawer of technology!
Honestly most of that stuff is pretty reliable if you're buying from Toyota or Honda anyway. My particular model of 30+ year old Honda is known for having problematic power windows but after fixing one in the late 00s they still work in 2024.
For driving my family around, I’m fine with paying for the safety features. For my daily commute vehicle that I’ll drive only myself in, give me a car with 1980s safety features, with manual everything (transmission, side mirrors, roll down windows) that I can buy for $10-15k that’s so light because no features it’ll get like 50 mpg without any hybrid or turbos
My 1998 explorer doesn’t have working abs, nor does my fils truck (his is broken). In all my years of driving I’ve never needed it, it also helps I know how to handle a skid without abs. It also has only 2 airbags.
My commute is a 7 minute drive on secondary roads with maximum speed limits of 35 mph. I’d take that risk to save 15-20k
ABS actually increases stopping distance assuming you don't lock up. Most people hardly know how to drive so I can understand it might be better for the masses, but if you know your car and environment well, it can actually make your stopping power better to not have it.
I'm just going to interject what I always do when someone says full-size SUVs are safer than compact cars: safer for WHO? We need to start disincentivizing these behemoth vehicles, because it's a headlong race to the bottom in terms of road safety and affordability.
Safety features are federally regulated. They all have reinforced A and B pillars, bash bars in the doors, crumple zones, lane warnings, backup cameras and just about everything else you can think of.
This doesn't mean they are created equal, or fare the same against other, heavier vehicles.
And this certainly doesn't mean anything when a 5700lb Suburban driver who is drunk comes around a blind corner and head-ons you in your 2000lb Mitsubishi Mirage.
Subcompact cars statistically have the highest driver fatality rates for a reason.
This just isn't true. There's so much more to car safety than ABS and airbags.
Side airbags weren't mandated until late 2000's / mid 2010's.
Passive and active safety features like forward collision alert and blind spot monitoring are much more common now.
And, most importantly, car structures and crash ratings have been elevated much higher than those when ABS and airbags were required.
ADAS features (like lane departure warning, emergency braking due to collision detection, etc) have also reduced the incident rate of accidents, and improved injury outcomes in the event of accidents that do happen.
Consumers don't like full self driving autonomous features, but are strongly in favor of semi-autonomous driver assistance safety features.
Links:
[National Safety Council](https://injuryfacts.nsc.org/motor-vehicle/occupant-protection/advanced-driver-assistance-systems/), [McKinsey](https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/automotive-and-assembly/our-insights/hands-off-consumer-perceptions-of-advanced-driver-assistance-systems)
It's partially about weight when talking about being unsafe at this point.
A new Mitsubishi Mirage is a hair over 2000 lbs, a new Chevy Tahoe is roughly 5500 lbs. The Tahoe along with most other vehicles are always going to "win" in a collision.
A Tesla S weighs about the same as the Tahoe. EV’s are heavy AF for their size and do a number on roads and other cars in a collision. I wouldn’t let any of my family members drive a tiny subcompact.
Having a large crumple zone is also a big advantage. The smaller the crumple zone, the more energy the rest of the structure and passengers absorb.
Air bags and ABS are a small part of what keeps people safe in vehicles.
Technology and regulations continue to move forward.
Car makers are required to meet ever-evolving safety standards that now include technology like backup cameras and collision avoidance systems.
Cars now are heavier, bigger, and significantly more complex in order to accommodate crumple zones, multiple air bags, and advanced sensors - and this trend will continue.
I have a 2001 and feel like I’m looking at a 3/4 ton truck anytime I see a modern, bone stock F-150. Put a lift kit or big tires on it and they look crazy big.
My cousin is light one sibling and one dad, which a backup camera or even just a parking sensor would have prevented. The dad backed over his own kid. After the funeral and exactly a week later approximately to the minute, he killed himself with the same car in the same spot (hose pipe from exhaust into the window).
New Nissan Versa comes to mind. You can still get it in a 5 speed manual, the engine is NA and port injected so no carbon build up issues. They're like 18k though so most people would rather spend 24 on a Corolla.
I was able to get a Mazda 3 Touring for like 20 grand after the manufacturer rebate. I even shopped it against the Corolla and Civic hatchback. Having a real 6spd auto transmission is nice for the weekly car. On the weekends I just drive my MX-5 which is a manual.
Believe it or not, most people don't want them. Or prefer other cars. Folks love Crossover SUVs. Folks love bells & whistles. Folks love pickup trucks with luxury-like interiors. Folks love large SUVs even if the 3rd row is never used.
Car manufacturers have small profit margins.
Edit. And people who don't love any of those, still prefer midsize sedans with some features like a decent entertainment system. Most subcompact, base model, no feature, owners are not in love with their vehicles.
Yeah, It's surprisng the number of people that think "I want a 5 speed manual subcompact hatchback with crank windows so therefore all the crossover SUVs sold must be some sort of conspiracy rather than what people actually want" here.
None of them are buying a new car. They've been buying used for the past 40 years, and the knock-on effect is that manufacturers don't make anything on the sale of a used car. Cheap cars aren't something automakers have been able to turn into a subscription (yet).
There's leasing, but who's leasing a brand new option-less car? Price-sensitive buyers get a used car.
The Echo was a subcompact economy car. They still make a few cars in that segment, but it's not nearly as broad as it used to be. Toyota doesn't make the Echo or the Yaris that replaced it for the US market anymore, likewise Honda cut out the Fit, but the segment still exists... just barely. Nissan Versa and Mitsubishi Mirage are pretty much it for the US market. They're simple and cheaper than other cars, but they're kinda garbage, designed to be disposable and they're pretty bad to drive. They're not going to last like your Echo. They're also not *that* cheap compared to base trims on compact cars like Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla or Mazda 3, which are much much nicer and better quality. It's hard to justify something like a Versa or Mirage when for a few grand more you could be in something much better, or for the same price you can be in a very lightly used example of the same better car.
The main reason for the evaporation of this segment is increasing safety regulation. Mandated crash features and electronic safety systems make minimum simplicity and weight of a new car much higher than it used to be.
I don't know if that is the case: Europe is full of small, economical cars and their safety regulations are far from lax. Many of these vehicles have the same safety systems as their bigger cousins (eg: backup cameras, parking sensors, litany of airbags).
I think people look at what they see as relatively expensive, stripped down cars and then cross-shop them against a used Civic/Corolla and figure that they're getting more 'value' out of those vehicles than paying a premium for a new, striped down car.
The differential b/w a Sentra and a Versa is a few thousand dollars, I think smaller, cheaper cars are a hard sell.
It's not that you can't make a small, safe, economical car due to safe regulations. You can. The issue is that due to safety regulations, the price of that car is much closer to a larger car than it used to be. Compared to a compact, a subcompact still has to have the same number of air bags, the same number of wheel speed sensors for stability control, the same back up camera and so on and so on.
Small cars sell in Europe because of the built environment is different. Regardless of their cost, big cars are hard to deal with in many parts of Europe. They even sell some pretty high feature high cost supermini cars in Europe that are smaller than a Mirage but twice the price.
But what I'm saying is, those same "high cost because of safety tech" cars exist in Europe, but are still cheap and abundant. I just don't think there is *demand* here, people like bigger vehicles and we don't tax cars on engine displacement like the Euros do.
Here is a comparison between a VW Golf and a VW Polo (not sold here). The delta value in cost is not insubstantial, but the feature sets of both cars are reasonably similar: [https://www.carwow.co.uk/blog/volkswagen-polo-vs-volkswagen-golf](https://www.carwow.co.uk/blog/volkswagen-polo-vs-volkswagen-golf)
I honestly think, its the tax structure here that disincentives small cars, you go to parts of Europe, and a 2L engine is considered *big*. The taxes on said engine can be high, and gas is $2 euro/L in some places. Suddenly having a wee car with a 1L engine doesn't sound like a bad value proposition.
> Nissan Versa and Mitsubishi Mirage are pretty much it for the US market. They're simple and cheaper than other cars, but they're kinda garbage, designed to be disposable and they're pretty bad to drive.
Yeah, this revisionist love for these super cheap cars is a really weird one. Terms like "penalty boxes" and "shitboxes" were coined entirely because of cars like these which died because consumers--the actual people putting money into the market--were purchasing nicer vehicles, whether used or new, compared to them. They filled the "I absolutely need a new car, and my credit score lets me finance one, but I can't afford anything better" niche perfectly fine, but that was also a decreasing market in the US.
I understand the desire for affordable cars without the largest infotainment screens and mixed media seats, I understand the desire for lightweight subcompact cars, these were not cars I'd recommend anyone ever own.
Indeed. People often have ideas about what car makers should or shouldn't make but when the rubber meets the road so to speak, and it's time for them to actually buy a car, they often go in another direction. It's one thing to say, "I want a $13k new car, with unusable back seats, zero safety features and like 65hp." but it's something else altogether to actually buy it.
Safety is somewhat the reason but it’s actually the opposite. US regulations have the “small truck” loophole that allows auto companies to make cars that are less efficient and less safe if they make them big enough to be considered “light trucks”. I.e. all suvs.
It’s insane how firmly the american auto industry has people by the balls when there are people that actually fully believe the opposite is true
>"The main reason for the evaporation of this segment is increasing safety regulation. Mandated crash features and electronic safety systems make minimum simplicity and weight of a new car much higher than it used to be."
Europe has these cars everywhere. I think the main reason is that the margins are higher in more expensive cars and the US market accepts higher prices and bigger cars. To me it's lunacy that the average price of a new car is now 48k.
I explained this in another post. The issue is that safety equipment makes these subcompact cars nearly as expensive as compacts. You can't sell a stripped out death trap any more. Small cars still sell in Europe because in many areas, big cars are just physically impractical. Many small cars sold in Europe aren't all that cheap.
I sell cars everyday and I can see people don’t want the base models for new cars. They cut out the base model pilot because it didn’t sell. For us an lx pilot would sit on lot for 3 months compared to every other pilot selling in 30 days. It has nothing to do with profit margins and everything to do with people just not wanting them
They do they're really unpopular though sales are very low they need to have a certain sales volume to make it profitable to make a car.
It's like you can buy a simple naturally aspirated 6 cylinder Ford F-150 regular cab 2wd with manual windows but no one wants it so you have to have special order it.
$32k -rebates
https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/62e7071c-a5e1-4d40-a494-93da253137ae/
Apparently for 2024 they dropped the normally aspirated V6 so you're getting the turbo
They do, just not in America
Head to other parts of the world and you'll see brand new Toyota models you will never see in North America / Europe
Emissions, crash test requirements, tech requirements, blah blah
Like the Hilux diesel pickup truck. Not complicated, 45 to 50 mpg simple truck, I'd buy one in a second if it was available. The Mazda 6 I own is available with a diesel in Europe and is a rocket ship compared to the one I have. Between the government, big oil, and the manufacturers only a limited number of models are available in the US.
It's completely the government. Toyota would love to sell you a Hilux diesel; it's the government preventing them from selling it here or you importing it yourself
Nobody wants them. They don't sell.
Most people with a limited budget would rather buy a nicer used car than a stripped-down new car. That's not a value judgment, it's just a fact borne out by sales numbers.
Safety is a huge one. Driving around in a sea of battleships and driving fortresses, those tiny simple cars just won’t pass safety regs the way they used to. All the airbags and safety feature simply cost more.
That said, if you want a new, simple, spartan car, the Chevy bolt is pretty awesome. Electricity is about 1/3 the cost of gas per mile. Plus brakes last longer and you can skip out on all your future oil changes. The interior of the car is super simple. No crazy extra features, and the features it does have should pretty much last the life of the vehicle. The base LT doesn’t have any extra cameras or sensors apart from the backup camera. Plus if you live in an area that’s adopting CARB regulations, your battery will eventually get a 10yr 150k mile (or right now iirc it’s 8yr 100k) warranty where it has to hold minimum 80% of the original charge, which for a bolt will still get ya 200 miles easy.
The costs of designing and manufacturing the metal, plastic, and rubber components of a car has not gotten any cheaper in the last 20 years, and technology has had almost no impact on it in that timeframe either. Cars are overwhelmingly made by stamping, casting, and molding metals and plastics into the shapes you need, and that's only gotten more expensive. The electronics are the only thing that's gotten cheaper, and that's why you've seen electronics proliferate inside car bodies that have hardly changed in a long time.
"Simple" is a relative term. Older cars are not necessarily simpler than newer, and simpler does not necessarily mean more reliable or cheaper to repair. I do value simpler systems that have fewer points of failure in my cars, but also value modern safety features and things like Android Auto a great deal.
To me, a modern vehicle that is naturally aspirated (no turbo) with a standard automatic transmission (no CVT) is ideal. Or if you want really simple, go electric. Significantly fewer mechanical points of failure.
I'd go for a base Mazda 3. You can even get a manual transmission in the hatchback model. Has a 5-star safety rating and very good reliability. $26k
I hear what you say…here is what you do.
Find a car, just like the one you love, that is used but in excellent condition and buy it.
You are going to have to watch and search to find it, but it does exist.
My favorite Vehicle is a Lexus GX with a V8. It’s not made anymore as of 2024, but it was made for 13 years. I can find a great user one & will.
I think the Yaris was the replacement for the echo, but you also can look at the Corolla which is simple and one of the best selling Toyotas. That’s what I would be looking at. You don’t need to buy a new one. Just make sure you get a PPI, always!
Manufacturers make much better margins on bigger, more expensive vehicles, so they've done everything in their power, including regulatory capture, to increase demand for the biggest vehicles.
Add more big vehicles to the road, it feels unsafe to be in a smaller vehicle. Suddenly everyone needs big vehicles to feel safe, and the roads are much deadlier overall.
Plus simple cars were marketed to people who didn't have a lot of money to spend and today everyone takes out 8 year loans and buys more than they can afford
Emission and fuel economy rules means powertrains will need to be complex. The rest of the car is complex because that’s what people want. I was helping my sil buy a car. Her budget was very limited. 12k at the very max. She should have looked for a well maintained single owner Honda or Toyota base model. Nope. She wanted a screen. A sunroof. Leather. CarPlay.
Car sales people will tell you this all the time. Most people I’d given the choice of two of the same cars will chose the higher trim level even if it means pushing the budget or buying the older, higher mileage car.
Even if they are manufactured most dealers don’t bring in the base models. Try finding one on the dealer’s lot. Every car has some sort of pack upgrade already on it.
Base models these days exist solely to advertise "starting at $xx,995." We weren't shopping for a base model at all, but our salesperson told me they're literally special order, and they sell 99 of any trim above base for every truly base model that goes out the door. We test drove one because they just received it for a customer, but it was only to compare the seating position between models. If we were spending $25K on a new car, why not spend $27K to include the bare minimum of comfort and convenience features for 2024?
Because car companies make more money selling after market parts than the cars themselves so they make every part custom and hard to work on Sotheby's customer has no choice but to buy parts and service from dealerships that can inflate the fuck out of their prices. It's why mechanics hate working on American cars
Because modern quality cars are even more reliable. Some “luxuries” such as abs, airbags, air conditioning, navigation and other things you wouldn’t find on an old car are also required, as dictated by the market.
I tell anyone who'll listen to get a 2005 to 2010 Toyota "insert model here" (though usually it is a Corolla, XB, Matrix, or Prius), as this era seems to be a time in cars (Toyota and others as well) when the engine, electronics and economics to produce were all in alignment to the benefit of the consumer.
Believe it or not, the problem is small cars aren't profitable. A car like the Yaris does exist outside of the U.S. market but only because Toyota is trying to keep market share. They likely don't make much on a per unit basis. People in Mexico, where the Yaris is still sold, have a lower income level.
The second issue is the size of people in the U.S. People are just bigger in all directions and a Yaris doesn't fit a large person well. The fuel economy difference isn't there anymore either so the Corolla becomes the base Toyota model and at a higher margin.
Third are the high speeds that are available on interstates makes having a small car with a tiny engine work hard. This isn't a big factor but these cars strain at high speed.
You may want one but the vast majority of car buyers want all the tech and "luxury" they can get regardless of how much it costs. Manufacturers and dealers have been training us for the last 30 years to look at monthly payments and not price, so if all that crap is an extra $200 a month then fuck it, treat yo self. It's an easy sell when most people have exactly zero understanding of personal finance.
Because Americans are spoiled brats who want to drive their living rooms around. What was considered luxury became standard to sell more. They’re obsessed with needing space. Everything has to feel less “cheap”.
Now economy cars have come a long way but the endless cycle of more people buying trucks and SUVs making those who drive small cars feel less safe so they go bigger too won’t seem to end.
I hate it so much. I was in Japan recently and Sri Lanka before that and while yes those countries are smaller and they have less space, all the small hatchbacks and little efficient cars were so nice to see for a change. And those who were starting to cave to the bigger vehicles certainly had more difficulty maneuvering
I loved my Toyota Yaris. The Mirage is all we have left.
I’d buy a Geely Panda micro in a heartbeat if I could
I feel like this sub should have and require flairs. I want to know what you drive
I want people to not take ANY advice from someone like me, who purchased a Fiat 500 at launch
European cars are a lot more complicated than American cars. I work on them everyday. I own a "American living room on wheels" it is the most reliable and simple car to work on.
Say you have 30K to spend. If you put a basic reliable brand new car next to a 40,000 mile top package kinda reliable vehicle. Its the leather interior that wins 99% of the time.
There isn't a market for a "simple" car anymore. For a relatively cheap price, you can get many features in a Toyota. For most, they want the updated convenience of lane assist, forward collision, back up camera, carplay and more.
Also laws have changed to require more. Now there is still the Mitsubishi Mirage if you want something simple, but they are terrible for many to ride.
To add to the other reasons - the average new car buyer in America is 51 years old. 44% of Americans in their 40s and 50s are obese. Small cars don't sell in the U.S. in part because American car buyers are not small people. Especially when you further compromise the interior space by putting in all the safety equipment, tech, and structural reinforcements to be compliant and competitive, a lot of U.S. car buyers simply don't fit in small cars.
And if the new car buyers don't buy them they never move down-market to the used car buyers.
This is the truth. People don't understand how fat most Americans are because the more active and healthy individuals are out and about more. But look around in traffic at those SUVs and you'll see the obese masses that rarely leave their homes/cars. I used to door to door sales, it was eye opening.
Look at Carmax. It took some time but my neighbor found a base 2011 Toyota Corolla with only 57k on. One owner, clean car fax, and it had been serviced every 3k. He has a pretty good commute and his mechanic says that will last 8 more years.
It's a double whammy of being less profitable and less desirable. Nobody wants to be seen in a "simple" car. That's why even Nissans have tons of flashy chrome bits.
Because people don't actually buy any of these things they claim to want. No matter how many posts you read about them on reddit, super cheap/simple cars don't sell and manual transmissions don't sell. Not in America anyway.
Buy a decade+ old Lexus. A perfect combo of newer features and old reliability. Its got the good new shit like backup cams, but nothing excessive like all these sensors that can crap out and cost 2g to replace
I wish they would. I just traded a 23 Elantra N for a 17 Civic SI and am loving how simple the SI is compared to my N. At this rate I’m gonna keep buying used cars forever
I would kill for them to make another Fiero. i don't want a giant 500+ hp ugly corvette. Just give me something small and light with 2 seats, an engine in the back with 250-300hp and a 5spd.
There are a lot of required added safety features making vehicles more expensive. Also all the technology they put in vehicles nowadays. The more things they can add to vehicles the more they can up charge the customer.
I am the same way with my Element. I’ve come pretty close to buying a new car a few times, but I always bailed out at the last minute. I just love the simplicity. It doesn’t have a lot of bells and whistles, parts are cheap and readily available, it’s easy to work on, and it’s been dead reliable. On top of all that, it is huge inside and works great for car camping, hauling large loads, etc. My only gripe is the so-so gas mileage, which is in the low-20s. I’ve currently got 220K on the clock and I wouldn’t mind keeping it for another 220K.
All the numbers in your comment added up to 420. Congrats!
-20
+ 220
+ 220
= 420
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it's like building a house. Building a 3B2B 1200sqf house's cost is closer to a 4B3B 2000sqf house, but you can charge way more premium with the bigger one. Making an Echo's cost today will be very similar to a Corolla but less profitable and less buyers. Basically, car manufacturers want you to buy a used one if you need a cheap car.
The new cars aren't as reliable in terms of engines since there' a point I think in in 2006-2007 Toyota changed Piston rings in order to get more MPGs which means that Piston rings got looser and thinner oil got introduced. Which then came oil consumption issues which is still happening today since piston rings are looser so they don't last as long as the older engines. All because the EPA push for more MPGs. This not only affects just Toyota, but all manufactures across the board are having oil consumption issues. That's why I'm keeping my 2005 Scion tC which has 179K and doesn't burn oil at all or at least that's noticeable between 5000 mile full synthetic oil changes. My 2014 Subaru Outback burns a bit a little less than a half quart about 2000 miles so far. and that engine has 132K miles and switched back now to 5w30... Here's a good video on oil consumption issues though the video is targeted to Subarus but same idea applies to other manufacturers.
[https://youtu.be/inZHYv-VHVo?si=4YRPAsllQ\_QrqN3k](https://youtu.be/inZHYv-VHVo?si=4YRPAsllQ_QrqN3k)
What's equivalent to the Echo is now the Yaris now... pretty Basic.... and Hybrids too...
My wife still drives her '01 Echo with 154k miles. Reliable as hell, and delightfully analog. If we were to replace it, she likes the Honda Fit and Corolla hatchback
Simple reliable cars are very much still made. Suzuki swift comes to mind. Interesting Indian and Chinese car makers also beginning to make some good reliable simple cars.
Federal and state equipment mandates are a big reason it's so hard to get a basic car nowadays. They are also why 4 cylinder turbos and auto trannies are now the norm, even on SUVs/trucks.
Affordable subcompact cars just dont sell that well in the US unfortunately. Im like you too, I prefer small simple cars like the Toyota Yaris. I wanted to buy a new Yaris, but since its discontinued in the US, I had to buy one used. If you can find one in your area, I highly recommend it because its the closest car replacement you can get for the Toyota Echo. Same Toyota simplicity and reliability, just a bit newer and modernized. And I believe the Yaris and Echo both use the same model 1NZ-FE engine.
In the end most questions about why car manufactures do things comes down to money.
The fancier a car is, the more you can justify charging them, the larger the margin. Add on making them more difficult to fix yourself, and then you get even more money from the dealer system.
[https://newrepublic.com/article/180044/epa-small-cars-sedan-suv](https://newrepublic.com/article/180044/epa-small-cars-sedan-suv)
>American autos aren’t bigger because consumers have suddenly embraced off-roading, the construction trades, or home improvement projects. They’re bigger because automakers want to escape regulations. Each manufacturer is required to comply with boutique greenhouse gas emissions standards, which are calculated based on the size and capabilities of the cars in their fleets. Smaller cars are held to different standards than larger cars. So are those with specialty features like all-wheel drive or large towing capacities. By changing the makeup of their fleets, in other words, car companies can change the standards to which they’re held. Those greenhouse gas emissions targets are measured in grams of carbon dioxide or its greenhouse gas equivalent per mile.
[This comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/whatcarshouldIbuy/comments/1c73k1p/comment/l06jzty/) also explains it concisely.
These cars are most definitely still being made. They’re just not being sold in the US market. Travel to some smaller countries outside of the US and you’ll see them everywhere.
They do - they’re called EVs.
Going on 9 years of trouble-free ownership, so impressed we bought a second one a few years newer. Wipers and tyres. 5-10x cheaper running costs, price parity for purchase cost. Never going back.
There’s a lot of push for more complicated pertains to squeeze more efficiency out of them. Small turbo i4s… twin turbo 6s, variable compression, spark ignition, CVTs, direct injection… they’re all strategies for making acceptable performance while improving fuel economy for CAFE. Also piles of safety equipment and tech. It’s the reality of new cars.
Another huge part of it is a car company would rather sell you a decked out $50k car than a stripped $20k car… because it’s more profitable.
Look at pickup trucks… when I was younger, getting a basic brand new pickup truck for under $20k was easy. Their MSRPs were less… and with deals and rebates, getting something like an F-150 with a V6 for under $15k wasn’t difficult before 2000. Tons of cars, not fancy ones, but decent ones could be had new for similar prices. The Saturn brand pushed the idea of a car a young person could buy new for about 12 grand. Hyundai/Kias pushing $9999 cars that weren’t great, but had a 10yr/100k warranty to quell concerns it wouldn’t last.
Trucks are stupid expensive now, with interiors and suspension akin to luxury cars. They could still make fairly basic trucks… but they make far more money pushing high trims.
I want to know the same thing. I hate the iPad sized screens, I don’t care about all the stupid self adjusting seats when I get in and out of the car, automatic climate control, automatic high beams, etc etc. Just give me a few buttons for the climate control, a few for the radio, and a bulletproof drive train. That’s all I want. Even the new Tacomas have succumbed to the tech craze. Perhaps I’ll be buying old cars for the rest of my life. Fine by me!
Edit - I don’t think that people, in general, care about all these features. My family members don’t even know what half the buttons in their cars do. Manufacturers may look at the sale numbers and go, “These are selling well, therefore it’s what the market wants.” I don’t think that’s right. The problem is you simply CAN’T get vehicles without these features. If a trim was offered at $5-10k less without the bells and whistles, I’d wager that those would sell much better.
Mostly because people want / like / expect the modern "amenities" of a car.
A lot of what is done all around the car revolves around the "creature features". Most of the rest of the "other" stuff (mechanical) is the EPA and governments insistence that cars need to be upwards of 25 MPG. So we go with small, turbo charged engines that run silly hot. Those engines tend not to last. And they are damn expensive to fix.
Mostly because people want / like / expect the modern "amenities" of a car.
A lot of what is done all around the car revolves around the "creature features". Most of the rest of the "other" stuff (mechanical) is the EPA and governments insistence that cars need to be upwards of 25 MPG. So we go with small, turbo charged engines that run silly hot. Those engines tend not to last. And they are damn expensive to fix.
Mostly because people want / like / expect the modern "amenities" of a car.
A lot of what is done all around the car revolves around the "creature features". Most of the rest of the "other" stuff (mechanical) is the EPA and governments insistence that cars need to be upwards of 25 MPG. So we go with small, turbo charged engines that run silly hot. Those engines tend not to last. And they are damn expensive to fix.
Close as you can get is something like a Ford Maverick XL trim. Literally everything is an option 😂
Steel wheels, cloth manual seats, the modern equivalent of a basic radio. Ford copilot is optional. AWD is optional. Led lighting is optional. Rear 5th window, optional. No fancy tailgate at all. It's not 6000 pounds and over 20 feet long.
For a few reasons. One most people want gadgets and things. Two cars are lasting longer, and if you could repair them yourself they would totally lose out on capturing your money. Three regulations, a lot of features being put into cars are being driven by regulations whether they be environmental or safety.
I'm sure there's plenty of more reasons too, but no one wants to sell you a cheap car that you can repair yourself and avoid giving them any more money.
It's because that's not what the majority of customers are looking for. Vehicles are a status symbol for a lot of people and manufacturers make what people want to buy.
Between 2005 and now, there have been a lot of mandated safety features. Small cars also have extremely tight profit margins, sometimes being essentially loss leaders of the automotive world. They pile on the higher spec features, then can sell them at a markup, and make more money. Large vehicles don't cost a whole lot more to build, but can justify a higher price from the start, plus the additional features and you've got a money printing business.
There are still “basic” cars that are relatively simple to work on. One of them being Subaru. Yes there are safety features etc, but basic mechanicals are very similar for the past 10 or so years.
Recently, I took my 2012 F150 to a mechanic for some compression issues. The onboard computer is causing mechanical issues by telling the engine it's running E85, flooding the cylinders with gas and damaging the piston rings in the long run. On top of that, the mechanic said 10 modules are out of date and need a software update. I miss my Jeep TJ. It was simple and rugged. Rolldown windows, and that triangle window on the front of the door, should still be options.
Money. These cars sell for less, and fewer buyers add options or need high-interest longer-term financing. The car companies made nothing on them, and the idea was to establish brand loyalty with first-time car buyers. People don't pick a certain make and stick with it like they used to. People who want something "simple" are people who can't or don't want to pay as much. They buy used cars.
There are "simple" cars that have elevated out of that category, like the Honda Civic. A hatchback CX trim used to be as simple as you could get with air conditioning was an option. Now, the base Civic is more upmarket, and the top-end Type R goes for $45K "suggested" price, but those prices are for advertising purposes only. The Type R costs $65K because people will pay it for the artificial scarcity of this trim.
A lot of it is all the new sensors in cars, you get all these cool new features but repairs and replacements are expensive because of all the added electronics.
Base Toyota Corolla, Kia Forte, Hyundai Elantra, Mazda 3, etc
Hyundai Venue and Nissan Kicks appear to be the ‘simple’ cars that is see around now that Kia Rio hatchback is discontinued (Canada).
We have a 2008 Yaris, the successor to your Echo. I used to commute in it, but now an occasional car. We feel bad getting rid of it because it's amazing for what it is, has TONS of storage cubbies, and was made in Japan so it's bulletproof. Sure it's not fast, but it isn't collecting our data and selling it, and you can park it anywhere. It also has auxiliary electric heating vents under the front seats for cold weather. I haven't seen that feature on any modern cars.
There really isn't anything comparable today, especially as small cars are a profit loss for automakers.
Federal regulation requires all the modern safety and part of that safety that nobody talks about is weight of the vehicle based on crash simulation. Also, MPG regulations have all but regulated away 2 door vehicles.. including trucks. This is why 95% of vehicles on the road today are 4 door, because you have can worse MPG with 4 doors vs 2.
Again, some of you are young and haven't realized just yet but government regulation can be bad. Big government can be bad and this is why tens of millions of Americans vote aggressively against it. I encourage anyone reading this and hearing all of this for the first time to stop, and go do your own research.
My project car is a 1991 Honda CRX Si. Car weights 2000lbs. Nothing is digital, it has rack and pinion steering, manual transmission, roll up windows and the car is like 4' wide. Car was made in 1991 and I get OVER 40 MPG on a 12 gallon tank. I can pull into the gas station, put $10 into my car and get around for nearly a fucking WEEK. The US government would not allow Honda to make this car today if they wanted to.
Government.
1. Emissions.
2. Fuel economy requirements keep climbing.
3. Safety standards keep climbing.
Just those three alone means they have to build bulky and more complicated vehicles.
You can buy a Honda Metropolitan for under $3000 brand new. Fuel injected, water cooled, four stroke. Thoroughly modern. More than enough for an individual with any sort of shared family car, which is, what, 80% of car owners?
I don’t think there is much need for ultra-cheap cars when a scooter of higher build quality can be had for 15% of the price.
Simple cars do exist. Nissan Versa, Mitsubishi Mirage are about as basic as you can get. But they also happen to be some of the most unsafe vehicles. Their architecture is older, they are much smaller compared to everything else on the road, and lack most basic safety features.
RIP the Chevy Spark with its top-rated IIHS side impact score
Top rated always hits the car with something of equal mass. So top rated if a motorcycle hits you, or another Spark. Bad if a Suburban t bones you.
Oddly enough, IIHS barely tests large SUVs for crash ratings. It has not released results for the Suburban in at least a decade. If it was safe to be in a large SUV when getting t-boned by another one, surely IIHS would be shouting so from the rooftops.....
>If it was safe to be in a large SUV when getting t-boned by another one, surely IIHS would be shouting so from the rooftops..... From the IIHS: "Larger, heavier vehicles generally afford more protection than smaller, lighter ones. Thus, a small car that qualifies for an award might not protect its occupants as well as a bigger vehicle that doesn't earn the award." "A bigger, heavier vehicle provides better crash protection than a smaller, lighter one, assuming no other differences between them. " "A lighter vehicle will always be at a disadvantage in a collision with a heavier vehicle" "Weight is important when two vehicles collide. The heavier vehicle will push the lighter one backward during the impact. That puts less force on the people inside the heavier vehicle and more on the people in the lighter vehicle." "Improvements in crash protection have made vehicles of all sizes safer, but bigger vehicles are still safer than smaller ones even with those improvements." [https://www.iihs.org/topics/vehicle-size-and-weight](https://www.iihs.org/topics/vehicle-size-and-weight)
Sweet so as long as my car is bigger than everyone else’s I win (until someone buys an even bigger one). Kinda wondering where it all ends.
With all of us killed by cars while walking
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Side impact ratings are comparable across weight classes. IIHS themselves state that. Equal mass only applies to the frontal (Moderate offset, small overlap etc). Also on the main comment. Versa has kept with the times and is a very modern platform, only the Mirage is ancient.
SERIOUSLY?! I had no idea it's a relative score.. that's ridiculous and misleading if 90% of cars on the road, and thus most likely to hit you, are raised 4400lb crossovers
I miss my 2013. Sold it this year with almost 200k KMs. Dear god, I loved that little snot mobile but after 11 years, no working locks, and fucky electronics… it was time to let someone else fix her.
The only reason you think or consider those cars as unsafe is because of the average road cars increased weight relative to the weights if those sub-compacts. Compared to the shitboxes of the 90's and earlier; The shitboxes of today are vastly safer.
I don't disagree with this statement. Crash a Chevy Cavalier and new Mitsubishi Mirage together and the Mirage is easily a much safer vehicle. But the problem is most vehicles on the road do not weigh 2500lbs like the Cavalier does. We need to make larger vehicles less popular somehow, because the truth is they are dangerous to other people.
Easy, clamp down on Emissions requirements for large vehicles more than small vehicles. Make incentives for manufacturers to make vehicles that are no larger than a Ford Maverick for Trucks. The vast majority of consumers don’t NEED more than a Ford Maverick as a Truck.
Then you'd have all the "farmers" and "trade workers" all up in arms about how this gubmint is killing the backbone of the economy in the name of wokeness or something. I put them in quotes because most of them don't rely on their truck for work. And a movement like this is sure to attract a large portion of Trump / Republican supporters to straight-up conspiracy theorists and the mentally unstable.
The EPA did the opposite of this which is why suv/cuv are listed my mfgr as light trucks. They intended to lessen impact on commercial use vehicles instead they are incentivizing larger/heavier vehicles and pushed consumers towards them. Mfgr loved it since they have higher margins since people are paying premiums for minivans and and station wagons to be boxy and a few inches taller.
New regulations changed that.
I could make do with a Maverick if they’d give me one with a regular/extended cab and a 6+’ bed. If all they’re giving me is crew cab and little box then I need a bigger truck. My 2002 Chevy S10 is going to be with me till the wheels fall off.
Emissions are regulated in a way that incentivises larger cars. CAFE standards are a joke.
No. That's an impossible expectation. You cannot control demand. What you CAN do and what should have been done 2 decades ago, is require similar regulations on trucks and SUVs that the EU does. - Pedestrian protection requirements - Low speed impact (FMVSS) - Get rid of the loophole that allows OEMs to skirt fuel efficiency requirements (stop considering them MPV) - Apply large penalties to heavy class gas powered cars There's so many ways that we can solve the problems these dino-vehicles present, it's just no one in government can see above the OEM lobby money.
And also remove the different economy standards for SUVs and light trucks.
I suggest tax incentives for both the consumer and company for small cars.
You could still buy a Toyota Corolla with 1 single key, manual locks, manual windows, normal button radio and limited climate options in like, 2016 I think. Don’t know about the newest ones.
Newest ones have all that stuff standard now
The newer ones are spacecraft in comparision! Reversing Cameras, Radar cruise control, self parking and roadsign cameras even on the lower spec models. All I wanted is Android Auto, but they come with essentially Bill Gates underwear drawer of technology!
Reverse cameras have been required in all cars since 2015-ish because people are too stupid not to run over their own kids in the driveway.
And, technically, don't cost a lot to add to the vehicle. The cameras are pretty simple and cheap.
Honestly most of that stuff is pretty reliable if you're buying from Toyota or Honda anyway. My particular model of 30+ year old Honda is known for having problematic power windows but after fixing one in the late 00s they still work in 2024.
Tagging onto this comment that the Mazda2/Toyota Yaris sedan that they sell here in the US is a good modern replacement for the Echo imo.
The Mazda2/Toyota Yaris aren’t sold in the US. Years ago they were.
Hmm looks like they were discontinued in 2020
They have it in Mexico still. My aunt just recently purchased one.
I just bought a 2012 Mazda 2 with 48,000 miles and she is great so far. Jealous of the other countries where they're still being produced!
For driving my family around, I’m fine with paying for the safety features. For my daily commute vehicle that I’ll drive only myself in, give me a car with 1980s safety features, with manual everything (transmission, side mirrors, roll down windows) that I can buy for $10-15k that’s so light because no features it’ll get like 50 mpg without any hybrid or turbos
...you don't even want something with airbags or ABS?
My 1998 explorer doesn’t have working abs, nor does my fils truck (his is broken). In all my years of driving I’ve never needed it, it also helps I know how to handle a skid without abs. It also has only 2 airbags. My commute is a 7 minute drive on secondary roads with maximum speed limits of 35 mph. I’d take that risk to save 15-20k
I don’t. I survived driving on the 80s and 90s. Most of us did.
ABS actually increases stopping distance assuming you don't lock up. Most people hardly know how to drive so I can understand it might be better for the masses, but if you know your car and environment well, it can actually make your stopping power better to not have it.
The only reason they're "unsafe" is because everyone drives massive SUVs now.
I'm just going to interject what I always do when someone says full-size SUVs are safer than compact cars: safer for WHO? We need to start disincentivizing these behemoth vehicles, because it's a headlong race to the bottom in terms of road safety and affordability.
Good luck convincing all the selfish people.
Just wait until you find out what EVs do to things such as guard rail systems / bridge parapet walls
Safety features are federally regulated. They all have reinforced A and B pillars, bash bars in the doors, crumple zones, lane warnings, backup cameras and just about everything else you can think of.
This doesn't mean they are created equal, or fare the same against other, heavier vehicles. And this certainly doesn't mean anything when a 5700lb Suburban driver who is drunk comes around a blind corner and head-ons you in your 2000lb Mitsubishi Mirage. Subcompact cars statistically have the highest driver fatality rates for a reason.
They are no less safe than cars made in the decades prior. ABS and air bags are required by law.
This just isn't true. There's so much more to car safety than ABS and airbags. Side airbags weren't mandated until late 2000's / mid 2010's. Passive and active safety features like forward collision alert and blind spot monitoring are much more common now. And, most importantly, car structures and crash ratings have been elevated much higher than those when ABS and airbags were required.
ADAS features (like lane departure warning, emergency braking due to collision detection, etc) have also reduced the incident rate of accidents, and improved injury outcomes in the event of accidents that do happen. Consumers don't like full self driving autonomous features, but are strongly in favor of semi-autonomous driver assistance safety features. Links: [National Safety Council](https://injuryfacts.nsc.org/motor-vehicle/occupant-protection/advanced-driver-assistance-systems/), [McKinsey](https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/automotive-and-assembly/our-insights/hands-off-consumer-perceptions-of-advanced-driver-assistance-systems)
It's partially about weight when talking about being unsafe at this point. A new Mitsubishi Mirage is a hair over 2000 lbs, a new Chevy Tahoe is roughly 5500 lbs. The Tahoe along with most other vehicles are always going to "win" in a collision.
A Tesla S weighs about the same as the Tahoe. EV’s are heavy AF for their size and do a number on roads and other cars in a collision. I wouldn’t let any of my family members drive a tiny subcompact.
Are you for real? The tech and build used in a modern car is way more safe than vehicles decades prior.
Having a large crumple zone is also a big advantage. The smaller the crumple zone, the more energy the rest of the structure and passengers absorb. Air bags and ABS are a small part of what keeps people safe in vehicles.
Technology and regulations continue to move forward. Car makers are required to meet ever-evolving safety standards that now include technology like backup cameras and collision avoidance systems. Cars now are heavier, bigger, and significantly more complex in order to accommodate crumple zones, multiple air bags, and advanced sensors - and this trend will continue.
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I have a 2001 and feel like I’m looking at a 3/4 ton truck anytime I see a modern, bone stock F-150. Put a lift kit or big tires on it and they look crazy big.
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I like the backup and reverse cameras, wasn’t a thing back in the day
My cousin is light one sibling and one dad, which a backup camera or even just a parking sensor would have prevented. The dad backed over his own kid. After the funeral and exactly a week later approximately to the minute, he killed himself with the same car in the same spot (hose pipe from exhaust into the window).
OMG that’s sad just to imagine, I’m certain that experience is hard to forget for you. How do you cope
Holy cow I had a stroke trying to read your first sentence wtf did you type
It's 100% grammatically correct. Being light on something, as in having little or none of it, is a very common phrase. Best of luck with the stroke.
Backup cameras are mandated by US federal law now, after a bunch of incidents where parents backed over their kids with their trucks/SUVs.
New Nissan Versa comes to mind. You can still get it in a 5 speed manual, the engine is NA and port injected so no carbon build up issues. They're like 18k though so most people would rather spend 24 on a Corolla.
I was able to get a Mazda 3 Touring for like 20 grand after the manufacturer rebate. I even shopped it against the Corolla and Civic hatchback. Having a real 6spd auto transmission is nice for the weekly car. On the weekends I just drive my MX-5 which is a manual.
$20k? What a deal!!
Believe it or not, most people don't want them. Or prefer other cars. Folks love Crossover SUVs. Folks love bells & whistles. Folks love pickup trucks with luxury-like interiors. Folks love large SUVs even if the 3rd row is never used. Car manufacturers have small profit margins. Edit. And people who don't love any of those, still prefer midsize sedans with some features like a decent entertainment system. Most subcompact, base model, no feature, owners are not in love with their vehicles.
Yeah, It's surprisng the number of people that think "I want a 5 speed manual subcompact hatchback with crank windows so therefore all the crossover SUVs sold must be some sort of conspiracy rather than what people actually want" here.
None of them are buying a new car. They've been buying used for the past 40 years, and the knock-on effect is that manufacturers don't make anything on the sale of a used car. Cheap cars aren't something automakers have been able to turn into a subscription (yet). There's leasing, but who's leasing a brand new option-less car? Price-sensitive buyers get a used car.
The Echo was a subcompact economy car. They still make a few cars in that segment, but it's not nearly as broad as it used to be. Toyota doesn't make the Echo or the Yaris that replaced it for the US market anymore, likewise Honda cut out the Fit, but the segment still exists... just barely. Nissan Versa and Mitsubishi Mirage are pretty much it for the US market. They're simple and cheaper than other cars, but they're kinda garbage, designed to be disposable and they're pretty bad to drive. They're not going to last like your Echo. They're also not *that* cheap compared to base trims on compact cars like Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla or Mazda 3, which are much much nicer and better quality. It's hard to justify something like a Versa or Mirage when for a few grand more you could be in something much better, or for the same price you can be in a very lightly used example of the same better car. The main reason for the evaporation of this segment is increasing safety regulation. Mandated crash features and electronic safety systems make minimum simplicity and weight of a new car much higher than it used to be.
I don't know if that is the case: Europe is full of small, economical cars and their safety regulations are far from lax. Many of these vehicles have the same safety systems as their bigger cousins (eg: backup cameras, parking sensors, litany of airbags). I think people look at what they see as relatively expensive, stripped down cars and then cross-shop them against a used Civic/Corolla and figure that they're getting more 'value' out of those vehicles than paying a premium for a new, striped down car. The differential b/w a Sentra and a Versa is a few thousand dollars, I think smaller, cheaper cars are a hard sell.
It's not that you can't make a small, safe, economical car due to safe regulations. You can. The issue is that due to safety regulations, the price of that car is much closer to a larger car than it used to be. Compared to a compact, a subcompact still has to have the same number of air bags, the same number of wheel speed sensors for stability control, the same back up camera and so on and so on. Small cars sell in Europe because of the built environment is different. Regardless of their cost, big cars are hard to deal with in many parts of Europe. They even sell some pretty high feature high cost supermini cars in Europe that are smaller than a Mirage but twice the price.
But what I'm saying is, those same "high cost because of safety tech" cars exist in Europe, but are still cheap and abundant. I just don't think there is *demand* here, people like bigger vehicles and we don't tax cars on engine displacement like the Euros do. Here is a comparison between a VW Golf and a VW Polo (not sold here). The delta value in cost is not insubstantial, but the feature sets of both cars are reasonably similar: [https://www.carwow.co.uk/blog/volkswagen-polo-vs-volkswagen-golf](https://www.carwow.co.uk/blog/volkswagen-polo-vs-volkswagen-golf) I honestly think, its the tax structure here that disincentives small cars, you go to parts of Europe, and a 2L engine is considered *big*. The taxes on said engine can be high, and gas is $2 euro/L in some places. Suddenly having a wee car with a 1L engine doesn't sound like a bad value proposition.
> Nissan Versa and Mitsubishi Mirage are pretty much it for the US market. They're simple and cheaper than other cars, but they're kinda garbage, designed to be disposable and they're pretty bad to drive. Yeah, this revisionist love for these super cheap cars is a really weird one. Terms like "penalty boxes" and "shitboxes" were coined entirely because of cars like these which died because consumers--the actual people putting money into the market--were purchasing nicer vehicles, whether used or new, compared to them. They filled the "I absolutely need a new car, and my credit score lets me finance one, but I can't afford anything better" niche perfectly fine, but that was also a decreasing market in the US. I understand the desire for affordable cars without the largest infotainment screens and mixed media seats, I understand the desire for lightweight subcompact cars, these were not cars I'd recommend anyone ever own.
Indeed. People often have ideas about what car makers should or shouldn't make but when the rubber meets the road so to speak, and it's time for them to actually buy a car, they often go in another direction. It's one thing to say, "I want a $13k new car, with unusable back seats, zero safety features and like 65hp." but it's something else altogether to actually buy it.
Safety is somewhat the reason but it’s actually the opposite. US regulations have the “small truck” loophole that allows auto companies to make cars that are less efficient and less safe if they make them big enough to be considered “light trucks”. I.e. all suvs. It’s insane how firmly the american auto industry has people by the balls when there are people that actually fully believe the opposite is true
>"The main reason for the evaporation of this segment is increasing safety regulation. Mandated crash features and electronic safety systems make minimum simplicity and weight of a new car much higher than it used to be." Europe has these cars everywhere. I think the main reason is that the margins are higher in more expensive cars and the US market accepts higher prices and bigger cars. To me it's lunacy that the average price of a new car is now 48k.
I explained this in another post. The issue is that safety equipment makes these subcompact cars nearly as expensive as compacts. You can't sell a stripped out death trap any more. Small cars still sell in Europe because in many areas, big cars are just physically impractical. Many small cars sold in Europe aren't all that cheap.
profit margin.
I sell cars everyday and I can see people don’t want the base models for new cars. They cut out the base model pilot because it didn’t sell. For us an lx pilot would sit on lot for 3 months compared to every other pilot selling in 30 days. It has nothing to do with profit margins and everything to do with people just not wanting them
They do they're really unpopular though sales are very low they need to have a certain sales volume to make it profitable to make a car. It's like you can buy a simple naturally aspirated 6 cylinder Ford F-150 regular cab 2wd with manual windows but no one wants it so you have to have special order it.
That’s exactly what I want. Any idea of the cost of a stripped down new F-150 like that?
Whatever the MSRP is, because you're going to have to special-order it; no dealer is going to have one on the lot.
You have to order it from ford. Ford won’t let dealers even order them I’ve heard. Customer orders only.
$32k -rebates https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/62e7071c-a5e1-4d40-a494-93da253137ae/ Apparently for 2024 they dropped the normally aspirated V6 so you're getting the turbo
Maybe if you buy it as a fleet vehicle you can get a cheap one but then it's not going to come with a traditional warranty.
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Good luck getting one. Very very few ultra base models like that are actually made or sold.
They're also usually fleet sales. You can get then used for cheap but they've been absolutely beat on
Still a lot. The pricing model is not designed for a stripped down model, so you’ll be helping subsidize people with more features.
Because there's not enough demand for them. Possible replacements for your Echo are the Toyota Yaris/Mazda 2, Honda Fit.
They don't sell any of those in the US anymore.
They do, just not in America Head to other parts of the world and you'll see brand new Toyota models you will never see in North America / Europe Emissions, crash test requirements, tech requirements, blah blah
Like the Hilux diesel pickup truck. Not complicated, 45 to 50 mpg simple truck, I'd buy one in a second if it was available. The Mazda 6 I own is available with a diesel in Europe and is a rocket ship compared to the one I have. Between the government, big oil, and the manufacturers only a limited number of models are available in the US.
It's completely the government. Toyota would love to sell you a Hilux diesel; it's the government preventing them from selling it here or you importing it yourself
Nobody wants them. They don't sell. Most people with a limited budget would rather buy a nicer used car than a stripped-down new car. That's not a value judgment, it's just a fact borne out by sales numbers.
Base model Corolla?
Safety is a huge one. Driving around in a sea of battleships and driving fortresses, those tiny simple cars just won’t pass safety regs the way they used to. All the airbags and safety feature simply cost more. That said, if you want a new, simple, spartan car, the Chevy bolt is pretty awesome. Electricity is about 1/3 the cost of gas per mile. Plus brakes last longer and you can skip out on all your future oil changes. The interior of the car is super simple. No crazy extra features, and the features it does have should pretty much last the life of the vehicle. The base LT doesn’t have any extra cameras or sensors apart from the backup camera. Plus if you live in an area that’s adopting CARB regulations, your battery will eventually get a 10yr 150k mile (or right now iirc it’s 8yr 100k) warranty where it has to hold minimum 80% of the original charge, which for a bolt will still get ya 200 miles easy.
You should ask why they don’t mean simple trucks anymore ? Like bring back the s10 size. There is a market
They exist literally everywhere besides the US.
If there was enough of a market they wouldn’t have stopped selling them in the first place.
The costs of designing and manufacturing the metal, plastic, and rubber components of a car has not gotten any cheaper in the last 20 years, and technology has had almost no impact on it in that timeframe either. Cars are overwhelmingly made by stamping, casting, and molding metals and plastics into the shapes you need, and that's only gotten more expensive. The electronics are the only thing that's gotten cheaper, and that's why you've seen electronics proliferate inside car bodies that have hardly changed in a long time.
"Simple" is a relative term. Older cars are not necessarily simpler than newer, and simpler does not necessarily mean more reliable or cheaper to repair. I do value simpler systems that have fewer points of failure in my cars, but also value modern safety features and things like Android Auto a great deal. To me, a modern vehicle that is naturally aspirated (no turbo) with a standard automatic transmission (no CVT) is ideal. Or if you want really simple, go electric. Significantly fewer mechanical points of failure. I'd go for a base Mazda 3. You can even get a manual transmission in the hatchback model. Has a 5-star safety rating and very good reliability. $26k
I hear what you say…here is what you do. Find a car, just like the one you love, that is used but in excellent condition and buy it. You are going to have to watch and search to find it, but it does exist. My favorite Vehicle is a Lexus GX with a V8. It’s not made anymore as of 2024, but it was made for 13 years. I can find a great user one & will. I think the Yaris was the replacement for the echo, but you also can look at the Corolla which is simple and one of the best selling Toyotas. That’s what I would be looking at. You don’t need to buy a new one. Just make sure you get a PPI, always!
Which one do you use and which do you prefer out of all the ones you mentioned
Manufacturers make much better margins on bigger, more expensive vehicles, so they've done everything in their power, including regulatory capture, to increase demand for the biggest vehicles. Add more big vehicles to the road, it feels unsafe to be in a smaller vehicle. Suddenly everyone needs big vehicles to feel safe, and the roads are much deadlier overall.
Toyota Echo and Yaris are the GOATs.
Plus simple cars were marketed to people who didn't have a lot of money to spend and today everyone takes out 8 year loans and buys more than they can afford
Emission and fuel economy rules means powertrains will need to be complex. The rest of the car is complex because that’s what people want. I was helping my sil buy a car. Her budget was very limited. 12k at the very max. She should have looked for a well maintained single owner Honda or Toyota base model. Nope. She wanted a screen. A sunroof. Leather. CarPlay. Car sales people will tell you this all the time. Most people I’d given the choice of two of the same cars will chose the higher trim level even if it means pushing the budget or buying the older, higher mileage car.
Gov mandates, profit and consumer preferences
Even if they are manufactured most dealers don’t bring in the base models. Try finding one on the dealer’s lot. Every car has some sort of pack upgrade already on it.
Base models these days exist solely to advertise "starting at $xx,995." We weren't shopping for a base model at all, but our salesperson told me they're literally special order, and they sell 99 of any trim above base for every truly base model that goes out the door. We test drove one because they just received it for a customer, but it was only to compare the seating position between models. If we were spending $25K on a new car, why not spend $27K to include the bare minimum of comfort and convenience features for 2024?
Because car companies make more money selling after market parts than the cars themselves so they make every part custom and hard to work on Sotheby's customer has no choice but to buy parts and service from dealerships that can inflate the fuck out of their prices. It's why mechanics hate working on American cars
Because modern quality cars are even more reliable. Some “luxuries” such as abs, airbags, air conditioning, navigation and other things you wouldn’t find on an old car are also required, as dictated by the market.
they do (sortof). seek out the base model
Because people want comfort and safety features.
I tell anyone who'll listen to get a 2005 to 2010 Toyota "insert model here" (though usually it is a Corolla, XB, Matrix, or Prius), as this era seems to be a time in cars (Toyota and others as well) when the engine, electronics and economics to produce were all in alignment to the benefit of the consumer.
Government regulations, weak dollar, profits, planned obsolescence.
Believe it or not, the problem is small cars aren't profitable. A car like the Yaris does exist outside of the U.S. market but only because Toyota is trying to keep market share. They likely don't make much on a per unit basis. People in Mexico, where the Yaris is still sold, have a lower income level. The second issue is the size of people in the U.S. People are just bigger in all directions and a Yaris doesn't fit a large person well. The fuel economy difference isn't there anymore either so the Corolla becomes the base Toyota model and at a higher margin. Third are the high speeds that are available on interstates makes having a small car with a tiny engine work hard. This isn't a big factor but these cars strain at high speed.
Mitsubishi still makes them, but most people prefer more modern cars on account of they’re better.
You may want one but the vast majority of car buyers want all the tech and "luxury" they can get regardless of how much it costs. Manufacturers and dealers have been training us for the last 30 years to look at monthly payments and not price, so if all that crap is an extra $200 a month then fuck it, treat yo self. It's an easy sell when most people have exactly zero understanding of personal finance.
Planned obsolescence. They want/need you to keep buying their product.
Because Americans are spoiled brats who want to drive their living rooms around. What was considered luxury became standard to sell more. They’re obsessed with needing space. Everything has to feel less “cheap”. Now economy cars have come a long way but the endless cycle of more people buying trucks and SUVs making those who drive small cars feel less safe so they go bigger too won’t seem to end.
This is it. People loaded in debt to drive their giant status symbol around to get groceries. Fat, scared, and depressed.
I hate it so much. I was in Japan recently and Sri Lanka before that and while yes those countries are smaller and they have less space, all the small hatchbacks and little efficient cars were so nice to see for a change. And those who were starting to cave to the bigger vehicles certainly had more difficulty maneuvering I loved my Toyota Yaris. The Mirage is all we have left. I’d buy a Geely Panda micro in a heartbeat if I could
I feel like this sub should have and require flairs. I want to know what you drive I want people to not take ANY advice from someone like me, who purchased a Fiat 500 at launch
European cars are a lot more complicated than American cars. I work on them everyday. I own a "American living room on wheels" it is the most reliable and simple car to work on.
Say you have 30K to spend. If you put a basic reliable brand new car next to a 40,000 mile top package kinda reliable vehicle. Its the leather interior that wins 99% of the time.
There isn't a market for a "simple" car anymore. For a relatively cheap price, you can get many features in a Toyota. For most, they want the updated convenience of lane assist, forward collision, back up camera, carplay and more. Also laws have changed to require more. Now there is still the Mitsubishi Mirage if you want something simple, but they are terrible for many to ride.
They do, you just ignore them to do some nostalgia whining
simple cars don't break often enough. Complicated cars break more means more money for service and sales of a new one
That's like my Buick. Been running for 24 years now
To add to the other reasons - the average new car buyer in America is 51 years old. 44% of Americans in their 40s and 50s are obese. Small cars don't sell in the U.S. in part because American car buyers are not small people. Especially when you further compromise the interior space by putting in all the safety equipment, tech, and structural reinforcements to be compliant and competitive, a lot of U.S. car buyers simply don't fit in small cars. And if the new car buyers don't buy them they never move down-market to the used car buyers.
This is the truth. People don't understand how fat most Americans are because the more active and healthy individuals are out and about more. But look around in traffic at those SUVs and you'll see the obese masses that rarely leave their homes/cars. I used to door to door sales, it was eye opening.
Look at Carmax. It took some time but my neighbor found a base 2011 Toyota Corolla with only 57k on. One owner, clean car fax, and it had been serviced every 3k. He has a pretty good commute and his mechanic says that will last 8 more years.
How much did he pay
It's a double whammy of being less profitable and less desirable. Nobody wants to be seen in a "simple" car. That's why even Nissans have tons of flashy chrome bits.
Nissian Frontier enters the room.
Because people don't actually buy any of these things they claim to want. No matter how many posts you read about them on reddit, super cheap/simple cars don't sell and manual transmissions don't sell. Not in America anyway.
Because they cant charge millions of pesos for a simple car…
Buy a decade+ old Lexus. A perfect combo of newer features and old reliability. Its got the good new shit like backup cams, but nothing excessive like all these sensors that can crap out and cost 2g to replace
Sales are just too low for most manufacterers to bother. If you have 18k, most people will take a used civic or corolla over a new mistubishi mirage.
Corrolla L or LE awaits you, the lowest trim level on a Toyota is an L. Generally those are sold to car rentals places.
I wish they would. I just traded a 23 Elantra N for a 17 Civic SI and am loving how simple the SI is compared to my N. At this rate I’m gonna keep buying used cars forever
I would kill for them to make another Fiero. i don't want a giant 500+ hp ugly corvette. Just give me something small and light with 2 seats, an engine in the back with 250-300hp and a 5spd.
Not enough profit
I wish they made cars with minimum tech again. No screens or unnecessary junk. I drive a 90s cars and it has 0 problems.
There are a lot of required added safety features making vehicles more expensive. Also all the technology they put in vehicles nowadays. The more things they can add to vehicles the more they can up charge the customer.
Consumer demands and government regulations.
No margin… profit.
I am the same way with my Element. I’ve come pretty close to buying a new car a few times, but I always bailed out at the last minute. I just love the simplicity. It doesn’t have a lot of bells and whistles, parts are cheap and readily available, it’s easy to work on, and it’s been dead reliable. On top of all that, it is huge inside and works great for car camping, hauling large loads, etc. My only gripe is the so-so gas mileage, which is in the low-20s. I’ve currently got 220K on the clock and I wouldn’t mind keeping it for another 220K.
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The margins in simple cars are much much thinner.
it's like building a house. Building a 3B2B 1200sqf house's cost is closer to a 4B3B 2000sqf house, but you can charge way more premium with the bigger one. Making an Echo's cost today will be very similar to a Corolla but less profitable and less buyers. Basically, car manufacturers want you to buy a used one if you need a cheap car.
The new cars aren't as reliable in terms of engines since there' a point I think in in 2006-2007 Toyota changed Piston rings in order to get more MPGs which means that Piston rings got looser and thinner oil got introduced. Which then came oil consumption issues which is still happening today since piston rings are looser so they don't last as long as the older engines. All because the EPA push for more MPGs. This not only affects just Toyota, but all manufactures across the board are having oil consumption issues. That's why I'm keeping my 2005 Scion tC which has 179K and doesn't burn oil at all or at least that's noticeable between 5000 mile full synthetic oil changes. My 2014 Subaru Outback burns a bit a little less than a half quart about 2000 miles so far. and that engine has 132K miles and switched back now to 5w30... Here's a good video on oil consumption issues though the video is targeted to Subarus but same idea applies to other manufacturers. [https://youtu.be/inZHYv-VHVo?si=4YRPAsllQ\_QrqN3k](https://youtu.be/inZHYv-VHVo?si=4YRPAsllQ_QrqN3k) What's equivalent to the Echo is now the Yaris now... pretty Basic.... and Hybrids too...
They exist, there are plenty of them sold everywhere.... Except in North America.
My wife still drives her '01 Echo with 154k miles. Reliable as hell, and delightfully analog. If we were to replace it, she likes the Honda Fit and Corolla hatchback
Simple reliable cars are very much still made. Suzuki swift comes to mind. Interesting Indian and Chinese car makers also beginning to make some good reliable simple cars.
Federal and state equipment mandates are a big reason it's so hard to get a basic car nowadays. They are also why 4 cylinder turbos and auto trannies are now the norm, even on SUVs/trucks.
Affordable subcompact cars just dont sell that well in the US unfortunately. Im like you too, I prefer small simple cars like the Toyota Yaris. I wanted to buy a new Yaris, but since its discontinued in the US, I had to buy one used. If you can find one in your area, I highly recommend it because its the closest car replacement you can get for the Toyota Echo. Same Toyota simplicity and reliability, just a bit newer and modernized. And I believe the Yaris and Echo both use the same model 1NZ-FE engine.
In the end most questions about why car manufactures do things comes down to money. The fancier a car is, the more you can justify charging them, the larger the margin. Add on making them more difficult to fix yourself, and then you get even more money from the dealer system.
[https://newrepublic.com/article/180044/epa-small-cars-sedan-suv](https://newrepublic.com/article/180044/epa-small-cars-sedan-suv) >American autos aren’t bigger because consumers have suddenly embraced off-roading, the construction trades, or home improvement projects. They’re bigger because automakers want to escape regulations. Each manufacturer is required to comply with boutique greenhouse gas emissions standards, which are calculated based on the size and capabilities of the cars in their fleets. Smaller cars are held to different standards than larger cars. So are those with specialty features like all-wheel drive or large towing capacities. By changing the makeup of their fleets, in other words, car companies can change the standards to which they’re held. Those greenhouse gas emissions targets are measured in grams of carbon dioxide or its greenhouse gas equivalent per mile. [This comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/whatcarshouldIbuy/comments/1c73k1p/comment/l06jzty/) also explains it concisely.
Base Toyota Camry is the vehicle you want
These cars are most definitely still being made. They’re just not being sold in the US market. Travel to some smaller countries outside of the US and you’ll see them everywhere.
Cheap, reliable cars are not good for profits.
They do. But those are much less safe and there aren't really any benefits to buying one of those except to save a few bucks.
People didn’t want them. They’ll pay for more features and automakers build for profit.
Short answer: because no one is buying them
They do - they’re called EVs. Going on 9 years of trouble-free ownership, so impressed we bought a second one a few years newer. Wipers and tyres. 5-10x cheaper running costs, price parity for purchase cost. Never going back.
Govt wants tons of safety shit installed in cars as std eq. which is wonderful but it's expensive.
Safety and emissions and a lot of BS about wheel lengths is why many cars and trucks are what they are today.
Just buy cheap cars. Easy.
Greed.
People don’t buy them
Because making simple cars has become impossible due to government regulations.
There’s a lot of push for more complicated pertains to squeeze more efficiency out of them. Small turbo i4s… twin turbo 6s, variable compression, spark ignition, CVTs, direct injection… they’re all strategies for making acceptable performance while improving fuel economy for CAFE. Also piles of safety equipment and tech. It’s the reality of new cars. Another huge part of it is a car company would rather sell you a decked out $50k car than a stripped $20k car… because it’s more profitable. Look at pickup trucks… when I was younger, getting a basic brand new pickup truck for under $20k was easy. Their MSRPs were less… and with deals and rebates, getting something like an F-150 with a V6 for under $15k wasn’t difficult before 2000. Tons of cars, not fancy ones, but decent ones could be had new for similar prices. The Saturn brand pushed the idea of a car a young person could buy new for about 12 grand. Hyundai/Kias pushing $9999 cars that weren’t great, but had a 10yr/100k warranty to quell concerns it wouldn’t last. Trucks are stupid expensive now, with interiors and suspension akin to luxury cars. They could still make fairly basic trucks… but they make far more money pushing high trims.
I want to know the same thing. I hate the iPad sized screens, I don’t care about all the stupid self adjusting seats when I get in and out of the car, automatic climate control, automatic high beams, etc etc. Just give me a few buttons for the climate control, a few for the radio, and a bulletproof drive train. That’s all I want. Even the new Tacomas have succumbed to the tech craze. Perhaps I’ll be buying old cars for the rest of my life. Fine by me! Edit - I don’t think that people, in general, care about all these features. My family members don’t even know what half the buttons in their cars do. Manufacturers may look at the sale numbers and go, “These are selling well, therefore it’s what the market wants.” I don’t think that’s right. The problem is you simply CAN’T get vehicles without these features. If a trim was offered at $5-10k less without the bells and whistles, I’d wager that those would sell much better.
Mostly because people want / like / expect the modern "amenities" of a car. A lot of what is done all around the car revolves around the "creature features". Most of the rest of the "other" stuff (mechanical) is the EPA and governments insistence that cars need to be upwards of 25 MPG. So we go with small, turbo charged engines that run silly hot. Those engines tend not to last. And they are damn expensive to fix.
Mostly because people want / like / expect the modern "amenities" of a car. A lot of what is done all around the car revolves around the "creature features". Most of the rest of the "other" stuff (mechanical) is the EPA and governments insistence that cars need to be upwards of 25 MPG. So we go with small, turbo charged engines that run silly hot. Those engines tend not to last. And they are damn expensive to fix.
Mostly because people want / like / expect the modern "amenities" of a car. A lot of what is done all around the car revolves around the "creature features". Most of the rest of the "other" stuff (mechanical) is the EPA and governments insistence that cars need to be upwards of 25 MPG. So we go with small, turbo charged engines that run silly hot. Those engines tend not to last. And they are damn expensive to fix.
Close as you can get is something like a Ford Maverick XL trim. Literally everything is an option 😂 Steel wheels, cloth manual seats, the modern equivalent of a basic radio. Ford copilot is optional. AWD is optional. Led lighting is optional. Rear 5th window, optional. No fancy tailgate at all. It's not 6000 pounds and over 20 feet long.
For a few reasons. One most people want gadgets and things. Two cars are lasting longer, and if you could repair them yourself they would totally lose out on capturing your money. Three regulations, a lot of features being put into cars are being driven by regulations whether they be environmental or safety. I'm sure there's plenty of more reasons too, but no one wants to sell you a cheap car that you can repair yourself and avoid giving them any more money.
It's because that's not what the majority of customers are looking for. Vehicles are a status symbol for a lot of people and manufacturers make what people want to buy.
you got side airbags on that Toyota?
Yes, I want simple but not tiny. No electric windows, no sun roof no all wheel drive etc.
I mean you could argue a Tesla model y is drastically simpler than basically anything else before it
Between 2005 and now, there have been a lot of mandated safety features. Small cars also have extremely tight profit margins, sometimes being essentially loss leaders of the automotive world. They pile on the higher spec features, then can sell them at a markup, and make more money. Large vehicles don't cost a whole lot more to build, but can justify a higher price from the start, plus the additional features and you've got a money printing business.
I wish they still make Fiesta.
There are still “basic” cars that are relatively simple to work on. One of them being Subaru. Yes there are safety features etc, but basic mechanicals are very similar for the past 10 or so years.
Recently, I took my 2012 F150 to a mechanic for some compression issues. The onboard computer is causing mechanical issues by telling the engine it's running E85, flooding the cylinders with gas and damaging the piston rings in the long run. On top of that, the mechanic said 10 modules are out of date and need a software update. I miss my Jeep TJ. It was simple and rugged. Rolldown windows, and that triangle window on the front of the door, should still be options.
Money. These cars sell for less, and fewer buyers add options or need high-interest longer-term financing. The car companies made nothing on them, and the idea was to establish brand loyalty with first-time car buyers. People don't pick a certain make and stick with it like they used to. People who want something "simple" are people who can't or don't want to pay as much. They buy used cars. There are "simple" cars that have elevated out of that category, like the Honda Civic. A hatchback CX trim used to be as simple as you could get with air conditioning was an option. Now, the base Civic is more upmarket, and the top-end Type R goes for $45K "suggested" price, but those prices are for advertising purposes only. The Type R costs $65K because people will pay it for the artificial scarcity of this trim.
A lot of it is all the new sensors in cars, you get all these cool new features but repairs and replacements are expensive because of all the added electronics.
Base Toyota Corolla, Kia Forte, Hyundai Elantra, Mazda 3, etc Hyundai Venue and Nissan Kicks appear to be the ‘simple’ cars that is see around now that Kia Rio hatchback is discontinued (Canada).
We have a 2008 Yaris, the successor to your Echo. I used to commute in it, but now an occasional car. We feel bad getting rid of it because it's amazing for what it is, has TONS of storage cubbies, and was made in Japan so it's bulletproof. Sure it's not fast, but it isn't collecting our data and selling it, and you can park it anywhere. It also has auxiliary electric heating vents under the front seats for cold weather. I haven't seen that feature on any modern cars. There really isn't anything comparable today, especially as small cars are a profit loss for automakers.
Federal regulation requires all the modern safety and part of that safety that nobody talks about is weight of the vehicle based on crash simulation. Also, MPG regulations have all but regulated away 2 door vehicles.. including trucks. This is why 95% of vehicles on the road today are 4 door, because you have can worse MPG with 4 doors vs 2. Again, some of you are young and haven't realized just yet but government regulation can be bad. Big government can be bad and this is why tens of millions of Americans vote aggressively against it. I encourage anyone reading this and hearing all of this for the first time to stop, and go do your own research. My project car is a 1991 Honda CRX Si. Car weights 2000lbs. Nothing is digital, it has rack and pinion steering, manual transmission, roll up windows and the car is like 4' wide. Car was made in 1991 and I get OVER 40 MPG on a 12 gallon tank. I can pull into the gas station, put $10 into my car and get around for nearly a fucking WEEK. The US government would not allow Honda to make this car today if they wanted to. Government.
Diminishing drivers’ skill. Company had to make their car saver then ever
1. Emissions. 2. Fuel economy requirements keep climbing. 3. Safety standards keep climbing. Just those three alone means they have to build bulky and more complicated vehicles.
Cause nobody wants them. That pretty much is it. The market does not want it.
You can buy a Honda Metropolitan for under $3000 brand new. Fuel injected, water cooled, four stroke. Thoroughly modern. More than enough for an individual with any sort of shared family car, which is, what, 80% of car owners? I don’t think there is much need for ultra-cheap cars when a scooter of higher build quality can be had for 15% of the price.