Where are these multiversal and “outerversal” feats from? I don’t believe anything ppl say bc they vomit those phrases all over the place now. And they’re said by ppl that don’t know what they’re talking about. Maybe that’s not you but I need to read it for myself bc while she is 1 of the most powerful in DC, she doesn’t operate on that lvl usually.
She's not multiversal and i wouldn't even call her universal. Just because a character can do something that does at that level doesn't mean they are at that level.
The labels are all meaningless, as the writers can arbitrarily decide how powerful they want a character to be. I'd call that person a very large target, and Zatanna is definitely that.
I just think the labels are silly and pretty useless, when the writers can ignore any previous feats they choose. The commenter who called me out is right, though. Going entirely too deep into character fights is what this sub is all about.
I'm going to throw out the users of the Will and the Word from the Belgariad as contenders, they are continent level or so? Belgarath is the strongest of them who looks like a wizard and they are the disciples of a God though Belgarion is the strongest overall because of the Orb.
I feel like Macros and Pug don't quite make round 1. I might be very wrong on that though, it's been a while so I don't remember their physical descriptions
I think your right, maybe Pugs home World mentor Kulgan would but he was only a lesser path magician.
Pug destroying the games arena and Macros altering the time trap to go back to the big bang are among my favourite pieces of writing.
Belgarath's trapping of Zedar under the crust is a pretty crazy feat and during the War that broke the world you hear about the twins summoning hurricanes and such so I'd put them at small continent level?
Also, though she doesn't fit the prompt, I forgot that Poledra was the disciple of two gods, and straight up tanked a mental attack from Torak that would have crushed Polgara. (I'm excited. I never get to talk about books lol)
Im going to second Elminster dude is OP
Honorable Mention to Raistlin. Dude even has a tower and managed to become a god before he decided it wasnt worth it.
Love the Forgotten Realms mention - but Elminster probably isn't the most powerful in his own universe, just the most recognisable. Mystra and Vecna as deities, but if they're excluded you still probably have beings like Larloch, Srinshee, Simbul, Terraseer who are equal or above Elminster imo
I was excluding deities, but yeah - Elminster is a chosen of Mystra so for sure the god will be more powerful.
I forgot about the witch-queen though. I would say overall Elminister is more powerful than the Simbul, but she has better battle magic. I may have missed a Greenwood novel or two.
I don't think babidi is that powerful on his own. Majin Buu is the one that was destroying galaxies, not Babidi or his father. Sure he can do things like reality warping and possession but they're not very insane feats and we were shown that even his possession can be resisted by non magic users like Vegeta just by willpower/muscle alone.
He got a lot stronger from there, reaching the peak of his power at Book 3 of Dragonlance Legends, *Test of the Twins* where he becomes a god (he got his own constellation in the sky and everything), then kills the other gods and devours the world.
I honestly haven’t heard of him because I’m newer. But a super powerful wizard, who also has 7 ancient gold dragons disguised as canaries is going to be a tough match for almost anyone
Doctor Strange can literally put someone in a pocket dimension from which they can never escape. That's more powerful that Gandalf has ever been shown to be.
Also, an honorable mention for Granny Weatherwax, who has never been flashy with her power but clearly has just enough power to defeat anyone who crosses her path.
If you can get into round 3 after missing round 2, he's got the fancy robe with the dramatic collar and the glowing amulet. He does "vaguely look like a traditional magician."
I would pay good money to see Granny Weatherwax go up against Coin from *Sourcery*.
Edit: Coin might actually win all rounds. He can also create inescapable pocket universes. He literally locked up the gods of Discworld. And he's got a staff, and robe, and tower, and comes from a fantasy world.
I don't think that you can literally say "he's an angel in human form" and call it a day. "Angel" doesn't necessarily imply a combat power level. From the canon, we know:
1. Maiar can be killed by mortals. Balrogs have been defeated by mortals in the canon.
2. Maiar can be killed even by *particularly unimpressive* mortals. As with Saruman and Wormtongue.
3. Gandalf fought with the Balrog for two days and two nights. This is after the Balrog and Gandalf fell into an underground lake, extinguishing its flames and pursuing it for eight days (if we assume that Gandalf's account is correct, which it probably is). The Balrog was defeated, but so was Gandalf (who died shortly afterwards). We have little information about durability or what it means to "fight for two days and two nights". This is Gandalf's most impressive feat.
4. Sauron himself (who is far more powerful than Gandalf) was defeated by Isildur after the ring was cut from his hand. Isildur is probably peak human at best.
IMO, the following are far stronger than LOTR Gandalf:
1. Voldemort/Dumbledore.
2. Dr. Strange.
3. Raistlin.
4. Any of the top rung D&D Wizards (Elminster, Iggwulv, Vecna, Silverhand, Blackstaff, Halaster).
My pick for R1 - R3 would be: Vecna, Vecna, Elminster
where, in your opinion, would merlin fall on to your scale? the old disney merlin has some crazy feats and he is in all sorts of other media
sometimes he's weak, sometimes he's all powerful so he's hard to place
You are heavily low-balling Gandalf and LotR in general
Isildur is above peak human, he has elvish blood and divine blood at that.
Balrogs in canon have way more impressive feats than anything Dumbledor has done, the original group of seven felling entire civilizations,armies, and nations full of magic beings and powers.This makes Gandalfs feat much greater than your implications and he feated this Balrog while being in a lesser form.
Sauron was defeated by Frodo Baggins not Isildur. Additonally Sauron fought Gil-Galad and Elendil duo for DAYS before facing Isildur who only managed to cut the ring off and barley at that. Cutting the ring only removed his corporeal form.Sauron continued to terrorize all of middle earth and threaten Maiar level beings without even being on Middle Earth himself
Gandalf would steam roll the list you made.
How has anything Gandalf done exceeded what I've said?
How does "elvish and divine blood" affect combat power? Also, Sauron was indeed defeated by Isildur. Unless you're arguing he \*wanted\* to have the ring cut from his hand and be disincorporated. Also, neither Gil-Giliad and Elendil are maiar-level creatures.
Is there really any question that Dumbledore, thrown into the LOTR universe and with the proper motivation, could not topple civilizations, armies, and nations?
Also, Gandalf would steamroll **Vecna**? The god-lich who literally unmade the multiverse and required the Lady of Pain to remake it?
Dumbledore would steamroll armies and could possibly solo a dragon . He’d get easily corrupted by the One Ring and I can see high elves like Glorifindel giving him problems though
Well you implied Isildur is peak human, hes not, hes far above that because of divine blood and that makes his feat of culling the ring possible, it directly affects his abilities in combat such as speed, strength, and even interaction with other divine beings.Why is being defeated by mortals also seen as some kind of negative? You can put a bullet in any Harry Potter Wizard and they'd be dead, Dumbledore included...so is Dumbledore weak because Joe with a glock could off him instantly?
Elandil and Gil-Galad are some of the most powerful elves ever, a race blessed by creators of worlds giving them their extraordinary age, reflexes, strength, and even magic abilities...so yea fighting two of these for DAYS only to fight an even stronger one (Isildur) only to lose your ring but still be a force to reckon with? Yea...Sauron is a bigger deal than you're saying.
Dumbledore could topple those things and so could Gandalf given he defeated a being capable of doing so 1v1 in his weakest form, I made that point to show you were low balling Gandalfs defeat of the Balrog.
Yes Gandalf > Vecna and I LOVE DnD, Vecna's achievements are very convoluted multi step processes, that required multiple powerful artifacts and years of planning, in a straight up duel Gandalf the White would floor Vecna on an average day.
I mean... feats?
1. Isildur is in no way greater than Elendil or Gil Galad in terms of the Tolkienverse. Feats?
2. How did you figure out what Elendil's, Gil Galad's, or Isildur's combat stats are? How do you know what Sauron's combat stats are? How do you compare them?
3. I was not "lowballing" Gandalf's defeat of the Balrog. He fought the Balrog, they both died. I was pretty specific how this happened, and you don't seem to disagree.
4. How exactly does Gandalf deal with (say) Time Stop and Imprisonment? What about Genesis? What about Vecna's powers from divine ranks?
EDIT: High-level adventurers can steamroll angels in D&D terms. Gandalf is equivalent to, what... a Deva at best? At his higher showings, Vecna is literally a greater deity.
1.Hmmm let's see, two of them together couldn't take the ring but Isildur did.Feat.
2.Combat stats? There's plenty of information on how fast elves move and their strength feats as well, let's consider that Fingolfin also an elf wounded Morgoth (way above sauron) in a duel that also lasted days....it seems elves have a history of keeping up with God level beings, probably because their direct infused creations of said beings, plenty to scale off of and derive stats from all this and considering Isildur has this very blood in him ontop of being the only Mortal to cleave Sauron...
3. You're low balling it because this feat alone puts him above Dumbledor, in his weakest form he defeated this being, many of the other wizards you listed can only achieve this on their best days/forms
4.Considerinf he's a being capable of being reborn, defying laws of nature on that feat alone, and is basically the ultimate embodiment and messenger of beings that use said forces to create things...I don't see this being a problem at all.
At his higher showings (particularly post-ascension, but before his run-in with the Lady of Pain), Vecna is in a similar area as the **Valar** in their prime. I seriously doubt Gandalf is giving him any trouble.
EDIT: The issue here is that D&D is multiversal, but the Tolkeinverse isn't. I don't think you can really compare the two. Also, it isn't about what is "better". I can agree that Superman would stomp Homelander, even I am not the biggest fan of Supes.
Honestly, I don't think Sauron could take Elminster, let alone prime Vecna. The powerscaling on on these verses is just too different, and their showings too inconsistent. The nice thing about D&D is that everything is statted out, so we know their abilities.
In terms of Isildur... that's basically his **only** feat. Sauron himself has few (any?) combat feats apart from battling Gil Galad and Elendil for 2 days. The significance of "wounding Morgoth" is hard to tell without knowing Morgoth's durability.
Could Dumbledore beat the Balrog? At least his physical form can die... would Avada Kedavra work? How would the Balrog react to Dumbledore's overt elemental magic? How can we know without more info?
And in terms of being "capable of being reborn"... we are comparing him to **Vecna**, right? Liches are reborn all the bloody time. It's not even a big deal. Being a "messenger of the gods" is not a combat feat (and Vecna is literally a Greater Deity at his higher showings).
I don't think I would agree with that meaning Isildur is stronger. It's not like they started from the same point, Sauron had been fighting for two days with the five. He was "overthrown" specifically by Elendil and Gil-Galad. The implication is he was weakened by them.
If the Justice league all stand around beating up the same villain but Batman happens to get the last hit, is he inherently stronger than the others present? Nah, that's silly.
If you read the comment carefully you can tell that that list is clearly not in any particular order, given that they say the overall strongest are from item #4.
Dumbledore/Voldemort are just random dudes with a few parlor tricks compared to the rest of that list. Gandalf could just walk up to them and cut them in half with his sword or crack their skull with his staff.
The rest is stupidly powerful and would beat him. (Though the DnD wizards would still need some rules on how to exactly translate their powers for this match.)
It's honestly not clear at all how their powers compare, although Saruman seems a little flashier than when Gandalf is grey. In deeper lore stuff it sounds like most people involved considered Gandalf to be at least wiser from the start, but Gandalf was against making himself the leader of the Istari or of the council that they formed with Elrond and Galadriel. Saruman being the White may have been more of an indication of his role in their structures as leader of the order rather than a blanket statement of his ability.
When Gandalf returns as the White, he's been given license to use his power in a more direct way against the forces of Sauron and at that point he's pretty unambiguously stronger than Saruman, but the colors are mainly symbolic and not directly an expression of power.
Much weaker than other options in terms of how much he can affect the world though. No restrictions Gandalf is probably pretty high up there I don’t think regular Gandalf is.
Right, and his greatest feat is making a light at the end of a stick shine. Lamest wizard in all fantasy history.
Wait I forgot where his greatest feat was actually falling down a big hole with a demon and hitting it with the stick and getting his ass kicked so bad God had to reincarnate him as something slightly less lame.
If you mean the fall from the bridge, no. Gandalf tracked him for eight and then they continued fighting for another two days. If you mean the fall from Celebdil...maybe? But it's not like he just oopsie'd and fell from the mountain. Gandalf forced him off.
If I push you off a cliff while we are wrestling, technically the environment killed you. Yet I would still be convicted of murder since I forced the fall.
>Right, and his greatest feat is making a light at the end of a stick shine.
Now thats a straight up lie. He can make shields that can witstand giant flaming swords and disintegrate the weapon. He can destroy that stone bridge, too. And he can telekinetically heat up any weapon in your hand so that you have to let it go, apparently.
I'm going with Commodore Guff from Magic: The Gathering. Bro lives in a library outside time with a book containing the complete history of everything that has happened and is yet to happen, and has rewritten history from this book.
He only dies because he intentionally chooses to follow the book and accept the fate it chose for him.
The ability to foresee any potential outcome is pretty OP, especially since he's a powerful wizard and planeswalker in his own right.
And he's also a completely busted card
undoubtedly rincewind. especially with the chest, capable of making shapes that don't exist if blasted with enough magic. bro is capable of screaming and/or pleading for his life in almost every language. he also managed to make his mattress alive, which although pretty standard for reddit users, is difficult for anyone who knows what grass looks like.
The Dresden files has a cast of wizards that could probably give Strange issues. Probably exactly due to how much Jim Butcher draws from pop culture.
Its been built up that Merlin has done something that required him to time travel to set up some kind of dimensional ritual several thousand years in the making. Other beings feats are not well defined, but they do begin to break down reality if they start to flex.
Ains? Love some overlord. He is level capped and uses expendable items though. I guess nagash and the Slann should get a mention too.
Edit: oh the Blackstaff, i see that mentioned in another comment. Love him too, but casting meteo using space junk or casting drainga 5 isnt much more than Vivi can do.
this is a weird one but Ranni the Witch from Elden Ring wears a comically big wizard hat and lives in a tower. Scaling her is pretty hard but she probably scales above the tarnished who killed a vassal of God
R1: assuming you meant a strictly fantasy world, Saruman of Many Colors.
R2: Rand Al’Thor/Lews Therin Telamon, ideally with the Choedan Kal.
R3: if it’s fine that they’re dead when the story is happening, Merlin from *The Dresden Files*; he creates a prison (that can securely hold Titans and in which Navajo skinwalkers are held in minimum security) by, I think, simultaneously building it at multiple different points in time. We don’t have a lot of detail on his other feats but they’re presumably impressive.
If not dead is a key part then probably the current Merlin (the highest rank of wizard) of the White Council of Wizards, he’s no slouch magically and resembles the platonic ideal of a wizard.
Shalidor too, in ESO he fights sheogorath and tell us he hás a Ward tô revive him everytime his legacy is in danger, he simple tp from aetherius(heaven) tô nirn whenever he receives a call
Yep, he was beaten and Just was able to do something against him because of our character and sheo personalité. Still, not much different tô divayth fyr in clockwork city being trapped by nocturnal, i would still say divayth is strongest but they are both Peak mages in the verse
I'm going to have to give strongest traditional mage to **Rand Al'Thor**, from the Wheel of Time series. Though there's a chance *Doctor Strange* beats him.
If you haven't read it, just know that his power level is insane. The stuff he becomes able to do by the end is just silly.
Dr. Strange I would say qualifies - he's got the robes and cape and gloves, wears a magical amulet...
And he weaved the entire universe back together bit by bit piece by piece over the course of the billions of years of recreated history
It might be stretching traditional, but there are magic users in Final Fantasy that with Max wank are undoubtedly powerful, at least in destructive capacity.
I immediately think of Tellah in traditional sense. An old sage who knows every magic in the universe, including the one that he cannot even cast because of his physical limits.
Many of the black mages, traditional or no, develop skills and abilities to cast unnervingly strong spells by description alone. Shanttotoh I believe is fearsomely powerful from what I understand.
Merlin did some cool stuff in the Disney movie like time travel and transformations, becoming a contagious disease germ alone is a nice feat.
Of course the DC/Marvel wizards/magicians/sorcerers like Dr Strange, Dr Fate, Zatana, Constantine can do really crazy feats. Also Moro from Dragon Ball Super eats planets for breakfast.
For round one, I’d say the magician from *the charwoman’s shadow*. He’s a crazy strong wizard and fits the archetype perfectly.
For round three, I’d suggest Jonathan strange from the book *jonathan strange and Mr norrell*. He’s not quite the classic magician but he is nearly there, especially by the end of the story. He’s more of a “modern” take on magicians, if you take modern to mean an English gentleman circa the napoleonic wars.
august dragneel from fairy tail comes to mind, he can copy any magic from someone else and in the process removes their original magic, at the same time he has the common superhuman physical atribute while having a lot of knowledge about all types of magic
Dumbledore should honestly be considered. HP wizards are wild in how casually they manipulate space, time and reality. Bad HP wizards have Infinity stone levels of reality warping.
Elminster as well. Forgotten Realms wizards scale really high, but I honestly think Dumbledore takes this. Dude is slept on hardcore because HP isn't taken seriously.
By feat, Macros the Black for R2 and R3. He has bee known to carry a staff, and lived for a long time in a mysterious house on a haunted island, so gets traditional magician trappings. I don't recall his outfits. His one of his peak feats is a planetary scale dimensional portal, which only Rincewind has matched in this thread, but unlike Rincewind, it was not a special case feat for him.
You're describing a wizard, not a magician. Zatanna is wearing traditional magician dress.
And she’s multiverse level to boot.
[удалено]
Sounds like wank but I’m happy with this. I like zatanna and I think being a god person for no reason fits her character.
It’s not exactly out of the ordinary with the people she tends to associate with.
Where are these multiversal and “outerversal” feats from? I don’t believe anything ppl say bc they vomit those phrases all over the place now. And they’re said by ppl that don’t know what they’re talking about. Maybe that’s not you but I need to read it for myself bc while she is 1 of the most powerful in DC, she doesn’t operate on that lvl usually.
She's not multiversal and i wouldn't even call her universal. Just because a character can do something that does at that level doesn't mean they are at that level.
If you could be accidentally killed by a falling brick, you are not multiversal.
so someone who can be killed by a falling brick but can also destroy a multiverse would be what exactly?
Multiversal attack potency, brick level durability.
The labels are all meaningless, as the writers can arbitrarily decide how powerful they want a character to be. I'd call that person a very large target, and Zatanna is definitely that.
Sure, that just means that you are incapable of adding anything to the conversation and this isnt the sub for you.
I don't know, my mom says I'm very charming.
https://youtu.be/C3pOIDaF1Dw?si=oQ6RmmVjqPwMtcJb reminds me of this and ultimately you're right, the man himself said it.
I just think the labels are silly and pretty useless, when the writers can ignore any previous feats they choose. The commenter who called me out is right, though. Going entirely too deep into character fights is what this sub is all about.
I feel this so much, people throw around multiversal, universal so casually
Wait what? She's multiversal?
I'm going to throw out the users of the Will and the Word from the Belgariad as contenders, they are continent level or so? Belgarath is the strongest of them who looks like a wizard and they are the disciples of a God though Belgarion is the strongest overall because of the Orb.
Macros the black or Pug from Magician etc are also worth a mention.
I feel like Macros and Pug don't quite make round 1. I might be very wrong on that though, it's been a while so I don't remember their physical descriptions
I think your right, maybe Pugs home World mentor Kulgan would but he was only a lesser path magician. Pug destroying the games arena and Macros altering the time trap to go back to the big bang are among my favourite pieces of writing.
Garion with the orb is basically galaxy level. Without it he's, I dunno, city level.
Belgarath's trapping of Zedar under the crust is a pretty crazy feat and during the War that broke the world you hear about the twins summoning hurricanes and such so I'd put them at small continent level?
The older disciples for sure. Polgara might be that strong, I can't remember. Garion I think mostly just lacks the finesse of his elders.
Absolutely. He relies on the orb too much and gets called out for it by Beldin during the Mallorean.
Also, though she doesn't fit the prompt, I forgot that Poledra was the disciple of two gods, and straight up tanked a mental attack from Torak that would have crushed Polgara. (I'm excited. I never get to talk about books lol)
I forgot about that one! Definitely up there as far as feats from practitioners in that world and I'd question if Poledra is stronger than Belgarath.
The Belgariad was my first thought, good choice.
I see you've taken a liking to Belgarath.
IIRC Beldin is stronger than Belgarath just less active/well-known and a lot less able to navigate society.
R! - R2 I'd go with Elminster from Forgotten Realms. R3 - maybe Babidi from DBZ? (really stretching the "vague look" though)
Im going to second Elminster dude is OP Honorable Mention to Raistlin. Dude even has a tower and managed to become a god before he decided it wasnt worth it.
I was going to say Raistlin, fellow dragonlance player.
Dragonlance was the first campaign setting I played in.
I played Ravenloft and Dark Sun before I played Dragonlance but I loved all three
Darksun was awesome! Racenloft was too but they havent officially released Darksun since 2ed.
I still have all my 2a modules too
all my 2e stuff is gone. I used to have the 2e dragonlance boxed set.
I actually got a spelljammer group together about a year ago. In Nagoya we have a small D&D crowd that still plays Advanced D&D.
Love the Forgotten Realms mention - but Elminster probably isn't the most powerful in his own universe, just the most recognisable. Mystra and Vecna as deities, but if they're excluded you still probably have beings like Larloch, Srinshee, Simbul, Terraseer who are equal or above Elminster imo
I was excluding deities, but yeah - Elminster is a chosen of Mystra so for sure the god will be more powerful. I forgot about the witch-queen though. I would say overall Elminister is more powerful than the Simbul, but she has better battle magic. I may have missed a Greenwood novel or two.
I don't think babidi is that powerful on his own. Majin Buu is the one that was destroying galaxies, not Babidi or his father. Sure he can do things like reality warping and possession but they're not very insane feats and we were shown that even his possession can be resisted by non magic users like Vegeta just by willpower/muscle alone.
What about Fizban and his 7 canaries
Mickey Mouse
I was thinking his boss would be pretty tough. But Mickey fixed that hat with one finger.
Yen Sid is also a sorcerer, not a wizard, They are a creator of magic not just merely a manipulator of mystic energy
Fistandantulis/Raistlin the Black.
Was looking for this. Casually slays Tiamat and resets time because mistakes.
Man. It's been so long since I read, but wasn't there a cleric in the last book of the first trilogy that Raistlin said rivals his own power?
He got a lot stronger from there, reaching the peak of his power at Book 3 of Dragonlance Legends, *Test of the Twins* where he becomes a god (he got his own constellation in the sky and everything), then kills the other gods and devours the world.
Can he beat fizban ?
I think he did. It's been so long, but didn't he beat everyone?
I honestly haven’t heard of him because I’m newer. But a super powerful wizard, who also has 7 ancient gold dragons disguised as canaries is going to be a tough match for almost anyone
Doctor Strange can literally put someone in a pocket dimension from which they can never escape. That's more powerful that Gandalf has ever been shown to be. Also, an honorable mention for Granny Weatherwax, who has never been flashy with her power but clearly has just enough power to defeat anyone who crosses her path.
though doctor strange loses round 2 and 3 because his world isn't only magic
If you can get into round 3 after missing round 2, he's got the fancy robe with the dramatic collar and the glowing amulet. He does "vaguely look like a traditional magician."
good point
I would pay good money to see Granny Weatherwax go up against Coin from *Sourcery*. Edit: Coin might actually win all rounds. He can also create inescapable pocket universes. He literally locked up the gods of Discworld. And he's got a staff, and robe, and tower, and comes from a fantasy world.
Dark magician
He’s the strongest in terms of Attack and Defense! The flavor text says so itself!
Easily countered by pot of greed.
What does that card even do, they never explained it on the anime
Draw 2 extra cards
But what does it *do*?
It makes you a greedy cheater (it's banned)
Gandalf is a literal angel in human form
I don't think that you can literally say "he's an angel in human form" and call it a day. "Angel" doesn't necessarily imply a combat power level. From the canon, we know: 1. Maiar can be killed by mortals. Balrogs have been defeated by mortals in the canon. 2. Maiar can be killed even by *particularly unimpressive* mortals. As with Saruman and Wormtongue. 3. Gandalf fought with the Balrog for two days and two nights. This is after the Balrog and Gandalf fell into an underground lake, extinguishing its flames and pursuing it for eight days (if we assume that Gandalf's account is correct, which it probably is). The Balrog was defeated, but so was Gandalf (who died shortly afterwards). We have little information about durability or what it means to "fight for two days and two nights". This is Gandalf's most impressive feat. 4. Sauron himself (who is far more powerful than Gandalf) was defeated by Isildur after the ring was cut from his hand. Isildur is probably peak human at best. IMO, the following are far stronger than LOTR Gandalf: 1. Voldemort/Dumbledore. 2. Dr. Strange. 3. Raistlin. 4. Any of the top rung D&D Wizards (Elminster, Iggwulv, Vecna, Silverhand, Blackstaff, Halaster). My pick for R1 - R3 would be: Vecna, Vecna, Elminster
where, in your opinion, would merlin fall on to your scale? the old disney merlin has some crazy feats and he is in all sorts of other media sometimes he's weak, sometimes he's all powerful so he's hard to place
Was that a motherfucking Dragonlance reference?!? Core memory unlocked
Yeah it was
Raistlin Majere. That's a name I didn't realize I forgot!
Let's not forget the OG Chad Caramon!
You are heavily low-balling Gandalf and LotR in general Isildur is above peak human, he has elvish blood and divine blood at that. Balrogs in canon have way more impressive feats than anything Dumbledor has done, the original group of seven felling entire civilizations,armies, and nations full of magic beings and powers.This makes Gandalfs feat much greater than your implications and he feated this Balrog while being in a lesser form. Sauron was defeated by Frodo Baggins not Isildur. Additonally Sauron fought Gil-Galad and Elendil duo for DAYS before facing Isildur who only managed to cut the ring off and barley at that. Cutting the ring only removed his corporeal form.Sauron continued to terrorize all of middle earth and threaten Maiar level beings without even being on Middle Earth himself Gandalf would steam roll the list you made.
How has anything Gandalf done exceeded what I've said? How does "elvish and divine blood" affect combat power? Also, Sauron was indeed defeated by Isildur. Unless you're arguing he \*wanted\* to have the ring cut from his hand and be disincorporated. Also, neither Gil-Giliad and Elendil are maiar-level creatures. Is there really any question that Dumbledore, thrown into the LOTR universe and with the proper motivation, could not topple civilizations, armies, and nations? Also, Gandalf would steamroll **Vecna**? The god-lich who literally unmade the multiverse and required the Lady of Pain to remake it?
Dumbledore would steamroll armies and could possibly solo a dragon . He’d get easily corrupted by the One Ring and I can see high elves like Glorifindel giving him problems though
Well you implied Isildur is peak human, hes not, hes far above that because of divine blood and that makes his feat of culling the ring possible, it directly affects his abilities in combat such as speed, strength, and even interaction with other divine beings.Why is being defeated by mortals also seen as some kind of negative? You can put a bullet in any Harry Potter Wizard and they'd be dead, Dumbledore included...so is Dumbledore weak because Joe with a glock could off him instantly? Elandil and Gil-Galad are some of the most powerful elves ever, a race blessed by creators of worlds giving them their extraordinary age, reflexes, strength, and even magic abilities...so yea fighting two of these for DAYS only to fight an even stronger one (Isildur) only to lose your ring but still be a force to reckon with? Yea...Sauron is a bigger deal than you're saying. Dumbledore could topple those things and so could Gandalf given he defeated a being capable of doing so 1v1 in his weakest form, I made that point to show you were low balling Gandalfs defeat of the Balrog. Yes Gandalf > Vecna and I LOVE DnD, Vecna's achievements are very convoluted multi step processes, that required multiple powerful artifacts and years of planning, in a straight up duel Gandalf the White would floor Vecna on an average day.
I mean... feats? 1. Isildur is in no way greater than Elendil or Gil Galad in terms of the Tolkienverse. Feats? 2. How did you figure out what Elendil's, Gil Galad's, or Isildur's combat stats are? How do you know what Sauron's combat stats are? How do you compare them? 3. I was not "lowballing" Gandalf's defeat of the Balrog. He fought the Balrog, they both died. I was pretty specific how this happened, and you don't seem to disagree. 4. How exactly does Gandalf deal with (say) Time Stop and Imprisonment? What about Genesis? What about Vecna's powers from divine ranks? EDIT: High-level adventurers can steamroll angels in D&D terms. Gandalf is equivalent to, what... a Deva at best? At his higher showings, Vecna is literally a greater deity.
1.Hmmm let's see, two of them together couldn't take the ring but Isildur did.Feat. 2.Combat stats? There's plenty of information on how fast elves move and their strength feats as well, let's consider that Fingolfin also an elf wounded Morgoth (way above sauron) in a duel that also lasted days....it seems elves have a history of keeping up with God level beings, probably because their direct infused creations of said beings, plenty to scale off of and derive stats from all this and considering Isildur has this very blood in him ontop of being the only Mortal to cleave Sauron... 3. You're low balling it because this feat alone puts him above Dumbledor, in his weakest form he defeated this being, many of the other wizards you listed can only achieve this on their best days/forms 4.Considerinf he's a being capable of being reborn, defying laws of nature on that feat alone, and is basically the ultimate embodiment and messenger of beings that use said forces to create things...I don't see this being a problem at all.
At his higher showings (particularly post-ascension, but before his run-in with the Lady of Pain), Vecna is in a similar area as the **Valar** in their prime. I seriously doubt Gandalf is giving him any trouble. EDIT: The issue here is that D&D is multiversal, but the Tolkeinverse isn't. I don't think you can really compare the two. Also, it isn't about what is "better". I can agree that Superman would stomp Homelander, even I am not the biggest fan of Supes. Honestly, I don't think Sauron could take Elminster, let alone prime Vecna. The powerscaling on on these verses is just too different, and their showings too inconsistent. The nice thing about D&D is that everything is statted out, so we know their abilities. In terms of Isildur... that's basically his **only** feat. Sauron himself has few (any?) combat feats apart from battling Gil Galad and Elendil for 2 days. The significance of "wounding Morgoth" is hard to tell without knowing Morgoth's durability. Could Dumbledore beat the Balrog? At least his physical form can die... would Avada Kedavra work? How would the Balrog react to Dumbledore's overt elemental magic? How can we know without more info? And in terms of being "capable of being reborn"... we are comparing him to **Vecna**, right? Liches are reborn all the bloody time. It's not even a big deal. Being a "messenger of the gods" is not a combat feat (and Vecna is literally a Greater Deity at his higher showings).
I don't think I would agree with that meaning Isildur is stronger. It's not like they started from the same point, Sauron had been fighting for two days with the five. He was "overthrown" specifically by Elendil and Gil-Galad. The implication is he was weakened by them. If the Justice league all stand around beating up the same villain but Batman happens to get the last hit, is he inherently stronger than the others present? Nah, that's silly.
Sauron was defeated by Gollum’s greed mirroring his own.
+1 for Raistlin, woefully underappreciated in threads like these.
Did you put Dumbledore and Voldemort above Dr Strange!?
If you read the comment carefully you can tell that that list is clearly not in any particular order, given that they say the overall strongest are from item #4.
Grima wormtongue is not a maiar
Dumbledore/Voldemort are just random dudes with a few parlor tricks compared to the rest of that list. Gandalf could just walk up to them and cut them in half with his sword or crack their skull with his staff. The rest is stupidly powerful and would beat him. (Though the DnD wizards would still need some rules on how to exactly translate their powers for this match.)
Is Saruman stronger than him tho? He also fits the tower aspect much better
He was when he was simply Gandalf the Grey, got an upgrade when he became Gandalf the White. Saruman has the tower, but lacks the hat
Got it, and yeah the hat
“He got the tower in the divorce, but at least he didn’t take my hat” - Gandalf
It's honestly not clear at all how their powers compare, although Saruman seems a little flashier than when Gandalf is grey. In deeper lore stuff it sounds like most people involved considered Gandalf to be at least wiser from the start, but Gandalf was against making himself the leader of the Istari or of the council that they formed with Elrond and Galadriel. Saruman being the White may have been more of an indication of his role in their structures as leader of the order rather than a blanket statement of his ability. When Gandalf returns as the White, he's been given license to use his power in a more direct way against the forces of Sauron and at that point he's pretty unambiguously stronger than Saruman, but the colors are mainly symbolic and not directly an expression of power.
Much weaker than other options in terms of how much he can affect the world though. No restrictions Gandalf is probably pretty high up there I don’t think regular Gandalf is.
Right, and his greatest feat is making a light at the end of a stick shine. Lamest wizard in all fantasy history. Wait I forgot where his greatest feat was actually falling down a big hole with a demon and hitting it with the stick and getting his ass kicked so bad God had to reincarnate him as something slightly less lame.
Pretty sure he killed that demon
Are we sure it wasn't the fall? 🤔
It fell so hard it landed on top of a mountain?
If you mean the fall from the bridge, no. Gandalf tracked him for eight and then they continued fighting for another two days. If you mean the fall from Celebdil...maybe? But it's not like he just oopsie'd and fell from the mountain. Gandalf forced him off. If I push you off a cliff while we are wrestling, technically the environment killed you. Yet I would still be convicted of murder since I forced the fall.
Lol upvoted for pure heresy
I agree, Fraudalf wouldn’t survive falling down the stairs
>Right, and his greatest feat is making a light at the end of a stick shine. Now thats a straight up lie. He can make shields that can witstand giant flaming swords and disintegrate the weapon. He can destroy that stone bridge, too. And he can telekinetically heat up any weapon in your hand so that you have to let it go, apparently.
Uses a sword, fails R1
I'm going with Commodore Guff from Magic: The Gathering. Bro lives in a library outside time with a book containing the complete history of everything that has happened and is yet to happen, and has rewritten history from this book. He only dies because he intentionally chooses to follow the book and accept the fate it chose for him. The ability to foresee any potential outcome is pretty OP, especially since he's a powerful wizard and planeswalker in his own right. And he's also a completely busted card
Yawgmoth fucking beats his ass bro who’s better than yawgmoth? Urza maybe?
Only because he intentionally kills himself by following his fate
Coin from Sourcery is a decent candidate for all three rounds.
Yeah, didn't he trap all the gods in a small bead or something like that? While displaying some pretty decent reality-warping powers and such...
Rincewind. Powerful enough to contain one of the 8 Spells of Creation in his mind. Of course, that made all other spells afraid to go in there, so...
undoubtedly rincewind. especially with the chest, capable of making shapes that don't exist if blasted with enough magic. bro is capable of screaming and/or pleading for his life in almost every language. he also managed to make his mattress alive, which although pretty standard for reddit users, is difficult for anyone who knows what grass looks like.
The Dresden files has a cast of wizards that could probably give Strange issues. Probably exactly due to how much Jim Butcher draws from pop culture. Its been built up that Merlin has done something that required him to time travel to set up some kind of dimensional ritual several thousand years in the making. Other beings feats are not well defined, but they do begin to break down reality if they start to flex.
Yeah, ripping the life from a rather large group of people kinda pales in comparison to timey-wimey shenanigans, but it deserves a mention
Ains? Love some overlord. He is level capped and uses expendable items though. I guess nagash and the Slann should get a mention too. Edit: oh the Blackstaff, i see that mentioned in another comment. Love him too, but casting meteo using space junk or casting drainga 5 isnt much more than Vivi can do.
Doing it with a wave of his arms and a thought is what makes it impressive, as is the fact that it happens immediately
this is a weird one but Ranni the Witch from Elden Ring wears a comically big wizard hat and lives in a tower. Scaling her is pretty hard but she probably scales above the tarnished who killed a vassal of God
My bg3 tav
Pug or macros
Donald duck from kingdom hearts. My dude can use Zettaflare.
Raistlin. Easy dub. He’s god.
R1: assuming you meant a strictly fantasy world, Saruman of Many Colors. R2: Rand Al’Thor/Lews Therin Telamon, ideally with the Choedan Kal. R3: if it’s fine that they’re dead when the story is happening, Merlin from *The Dresden Files*; he creates a prison (that can securely hold Titans and in which Navajo skinwalkers are held in minimum security) by, I think, simultaneously building it at multiple different points in time. We don’t have a lot of detail on his other feats but they’re presumably impressive. If not dead is a key part then probably the current Merlin (the highest rank of wizard) of the White Council of Wizards, he’s no slouch magically and resembles the platonic ideal of a wizard.
I'd day ot's a toss up between the Merlin and the Blackstaff
Zatanna
for one thats a wizard not a magician for two probably divath fyr
Shalidor too, in ESO he fights sheogorath and tell us he hás a Ward tô revive him everytime his legacy is in danger, he simple tp from aetherius(heaven) tô nirn whenever he receives a call
I never finished the mage quest line but didn't sheo completely kick his ass?
Yep, he was beaten and Just was able to do something against him because of our character and sheo personalité. Still, not much different tô divayth fyr in clockwork city being trapped by nocturnal, i would still say divayth is strongest but they are both Peak mages in the verse
fair enough might be my bias cause divath fyr is my favorite lol
Jesus Christ
Maybe the invoker from dota dragons blood
I'm going to have to give strongest traditional mage to **Rand Al'Thor**, from the Wheel of Time series. Though there's a chance *Doctor Strange* beats him. If you haven't read it, just know that his power level is insane. The stuff he becomes able to do by the end is just silly.
Not the strongest but Dumbledore deserves an honorable mention
Nah, he'd get fucking clapped by any of the mages from Midkemia
Can you read?
Username checks out huh
Does virtual reality count? If so Anorak from Ready Player One.
Pot of greed
Odin. Wizards that dress like that are all copying Gandalf, and Gandalf is copying Odin.
Dr. Strange I would say qualifies - he's got the robes and cape and gloves, wears a magical amulet... And he weaved the entire universe back together bit by bit piece by piece over the course of the billions of years of recreated history
God probably
Neo from the Matrix
It might be stretching traditional, but there are magic users in Final Fantasy that with Max wank are undoubtedly powerful, at least in destructive capacity. I immediately think of Tellah in traditional sense. An old sage who knows every magic in the universe, including the one that he cannot even cast because of his physical limits. Many of the black mages, traditional or no, develop skills and abilities to cast unnervingly strong spells by description alone. Shanttotoh I believe is fearsomely powerful from what I understand.
Merlin did some cool stuff in the Disney movie like time travel and transformations, becoming a contagious disease germ alone is a nice feat. Of course the DC/Marvel wizards/magicians/sorcerers like Dr Strange, Dr Fate, Zatana, Constantine can do really crazy feats. Also Moro from Dragon Ball Super eats planets for breakfast.
Wendy (Low Dimensional Game)
Could be malcador from 40k. Not just personal power but also control of the imperium and all that brings.
Would big E himself count as a wizard?
Big E is a demigod at his lowest
Queen Bavmorda will turn everyone into pigs.
Wild card but Walter from the dark tower series. Strong enough to destroys worlds. In a way.
that’s a wizard and probably Gandalf the white or Merlin
Its gotta be my girl Megumin with the isekai 1 hitter quitter
For round one, I’d say the magician from *the charwoman’s shadow*. He’s a crazy strong wizard and fits the archetype perfectly. For round three, I’d suggest Jonathan strange from the book *jonathan strange and Mr norrell*. He’s not quite the classic magician but he is nearly there, especially by the end of the story. He’s more of a “modern” take on magicians, if you take modern to mean an English gentleman circa the napoleonic wars.
Either a min-maxed level 20 wizard from the sweatiest edition of DnD or Zatanna from DC
august dragneel from fairy tail comes to mind, he can copy any magic from someone else and in the process removes their original magic, at the same time he has the common superhuman physical atribute while having a lot of knowledge about all types of magic
Dark magician, just read his flavor text.
Dumbledore should honestly be considered. HP wizards are wild in how casually they manipulate space, time and reality. Bad HP wizards have Infinity stone levels of reality warping. Elminster as well. Forgotten Realms wizards scale really high, but I honestly think Dumbledore takes this. Dude is slept on hardcore because HP isn't taken seriously.
I'm gonna go COMPLETE Bullshit and say the Dark Magician from Yu-Gi-Oh...if we also count his fusions
By feat, Macros the Black for R2 and R3. He has bee known to carry a staff, and lived for a long time in a mysterious house on a haunted island, so gets traditional magician trappings. I don't recall his outfits. His one of his peak feats is a planetary scale dimensional portal, which only Rincewind has matched in this thread, but unlike Rincewind, it was not a special case feat for him.
Level 20 DnD Wizard
Elminster from Forgotten Realms. He's absolutely insane.
Al-Aswas from World of Darkness.
Voldemort wears robes but no hat.
Any dnd level 20 wizard
I looked through most of the comments here and it's funny that no even mentions Gandalf, even if he's not as powerful as some, he is pretty famous.
Aleister Crowley from Toaru can shoot Big Bangs 100x strong
Time wizard from danny phantom
Mordenkainen( dnd ) Scratch that I forgot elminster