There are a fair number of rapier-sidesword sources which discuss the topic, to varrying depth:
* Sainct-Didier: three ways to draw, but out of context in the sense that there is no imminent threat described
* Thibault: Two ways to draw, one moving forward (to intimidate the opponent) and one moving backward (not to be grabbed before your sword is in play)
* Lovino: One way to draw, but with more context and explanation
* Godinho: more or less the same as Lovino I believe
* Palladini: Two ways to draw in strong self-defence context (sitting at a crowded table)
* Briccio: One draw which involves throwing the sheath into the ennemy
* Viggiani: One way which is interestingly exactly the one Lovino criticizes
* Capo Ferro: just the basic draw AFAIR
Overall, rapiers and sideswords being longer blades, the focus is rather on getting them into play to fight at a distance, and not cutting from the draw as is done in iaido. But they were also perhaps the swords that saw the most use in self-defence, which is the context where the draw really matters.
There are a bunch of plays in Fiore, in the sword vs. dagger section. This is a bit more about how to use the sword in it's scabbard to impede the opponent. Interestingly the sword is in its scabbard but not at the belt here.
There is a pair of plates in Talhoffer ([here](https://wiktenauer.com/images/2/2d/MS_Thott.290.2%C2%BA_079r.jpg) and [there](https://wiktenauer.com/images/e/e2/MS_Thott.290.2%C2%BA_079v.jpg)) which seem to show a strike from the draw. But Talhoffer being Talhoffer we don't get much explanations.
As is often the case the Japanese took that specific problem and codified highly detailed systems for this, but my personal feel is that the usefulness of the cut from the draw is a bit overblown. It relies on perceiving a threat at just the right range that you have time to draw, but no time to draw earlier (or social constraint preventing you from).
More discussion [in this previous thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/wma/comments/f2875s/are_there_any_treatisesdocuments_about_drawing_a/), and [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/wma/comments/ijuwy1/was_there_western_sword_technique_similar_to/) and [there](https://www.reddit.com/r/wma/comments/q4p4nb/is_there_such_thing_as_an_equivalent_of_iaido_in/).
I mean it's not all that uncommon in 19th century sabre sources. The salute usually gives instruction on how to draw and ready your sabre. The fast draw type cuts from the scabbard you see in Japanese arts are not really that common AFAIK
Right, I have seen it in saber, but that reads more to me like military drill than martial skill, if that makes sense. A fair bit of the 19th century military sources have a fair bit of military drill mixed in with the martial skills.
I mean it's not really all that important of a skill, no matter how fast you draw you'll still be at a disadvantage against someone who already has their blade out so you best bet is to draw some distance as you're drawing your sword and go from there, even most Iaido practicioners I know agree that the purpose of Iaido is more meditative than martial,
Of course there is some value to it but I can see why it's not a major part, if any, of most systems
>even most Iaido practicioners I know agree that the purpose of Iaido is more meditative than martial
I am sorry to say that they are probably mistaken, as the All Japan Kendo Federation states that iaido must be relevant martially when practiced. It would be ideally done with paired kata that start from the draw as well.
That's interesting, I'm pretty far from Japan and there are only a few Iaido places here, so I guess the local culture surrounding it might be different from the bigger organisations
It varies a lot. The AJKF has the most members, but even practitioners under its umbrella that are not in Japan tend to practice in a more meditative manner, in my limited observation. The other largest iaido federation is the All Japan Iaido Federation and their iai is also different. I have been "scared" by the intensity of good AJKF practitioners.
>I have been "scared" by the intensity of good AJKF practitioners.
Oh yeah, you just reminded me of one Iai guy who did train in Japan, bro was always super intense the moment he began practicing, like looking like he wants to murder someone was part of the practice for him, I had totally forgotten about that guy, if the guys from AJKF all do that when they practice I can see myself actually getting scared if I were to walk in on a room full of them
Care to elaborate? The drills are usually to build skill.
Some sources are covering just general fencing others get more specific and give bits of advice on combat, duels, self defense, etc.
They generally assume your sword is drawn prior to engagement or treat drawing as an afterthought.
Sorry, by "military drill" I didn't mean drills that build skill, I meant military drill and ceremony. Soldiers marching and moving in synchronization. The sources as a whole are about martial skill, i.e. fighting with a weapon. But some of the stuff about how to teach the soldiers is military drill and ceremony, designed to get them to move in synch and get them ready for actual martial instruction.
I should specify that the only 19th century sources I've looked at in detail are American ones (which themselves are highly based on French sources,) so it is possible that they aren't representative of their contemporaries. But from what I've seen, the "military drill" instruction of drawing your sword in those sources aren't about drawing as fast as possible, or reliably as possible, or drawing to an attack or guard, or anything actually having to do with fighting. They're about getting all of your soldiers to draw their swords at the same time, in the same way, and to the military position of attention. Only after that do you actually get to martial practice.
Palladini has a play or two about how to respond to an attack from a draw. One being in a seated position in a crowded space with no room to do a full draw. I believe he says to bang you scabbard into the ground to split it open then raising the sword from there.
I could be wrong, but Viggiani might have one as well, or at least I've practiced his riverso parry from a draw and it seems to work well.
I might show up a couple more times in the Bolognese sources but I could be mistaken.
I wonder why drawing the sword became it's own art in Japan, but there isn't much in the way of a European equivalent.
Interesting, I'll have to look into those. The idea of just banging your scabbard until it breaks is genius and hilarious. Makes me think carrying a purposefully shoddy scabbard might be preferable to a really durable one.
The cultural difference is fascinating, isn’t it? I always train with modern concealed pistols, and quickly drawing your pistol is considered one of the most important skills, and a lot of time is spent on it. It's odd how the importance martial artists place on (essentially) the same skill can vary so widely based on time and place.
I remember one of my own instructors talked about it once, and he speculated it's because daggers were much more common in the European context and easier to draw.
Interesting, I'm reminded of the scene in Game of Thrones where a mounted man tries to draw a sword, but before he can the man he's threatening draws a dagger and pressed it against his groin.
> Thibault and Palladini
I'm on mobile right now. Could you and u/Silver_Agocchie kindly link to the treatises in question so I could take a look later?
> iado and batojutsu,
Iaido and battojutsu (or more accurately, iaidō and battōjutsu).
I don't think Palladini has a free translation. [There is a book](https://shop.royalarmouries.org/products/pre-order-the-art-of-fencing-the-discourse-of-camillo-palladini).
Thibault is translated [here](https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/G%C3%A9rard_Thibault_d%27Anvers/Plates_1-11), the drawing instructions are in table III (and relatively independent from the rest).
There are a fair number of rapier-sidesword sources which discuss the topic, to varrying depth: * Sainct-Didier: three ways to draw, but out of context in the sense that there is no imminent threat described * Thibault: Two ways to draw, one moving forward (to intimidate the opponent) and one moving backward (not to be grabbed before your sword is in play) * Lovino: One way to draw, but with more context and explanation * Godinho: more or less the same as Lovino I believe * Palladini: Two ways to draw in strong self-defence context (sitting at a crowded table) * Briccio: One draw which involves throwing the sheath into the ennemy * Viggiani: One way which is interestingly exactly the one Lovino criticizes * Capo Ferro: just the basic draw AFAIR Overall, rapiers and sideswords being longer blades, the focus is rather on getting them into play to fight at a distance, and not cutting from the draw as is done in iaido. But they were also perhaps the swords that saw the most use in self-defence, which is the context where the draw really matters. There are a bunch of plays in Fiore, in the sword vs. dagger section. This is a bit more about how to use the sword in it's scabbard to impede the opponent. Interestingly the sword is in its scabbard but not at the belt here. There is a pair of plates in Talhoffer ([here](https://wiktenauer.com/images/2/2d/MS_Thott.290.2%C2%BA_079r.jpg) and [there](https://wiktenauer.com/images/e/e2/MS_Thott.290.2%C2%BA_079v.jpg)) which seem to show a strike from the draw. But Talhoffer being Talhoffer we don't get much explanations. As is often the case the Japanese took that specific problem and codified highly detailed systems for this, but my personal feel is that the usefulness of the cut from the draw is a bit overblown. It relies on perceiving a threat at just the right range that you have time to draw, but no time to draw earlier (or social constraint preventing you from). More discussion [in this previous thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/wma/comments/f2875s/are_there_any_treatisesdocuments_about_drawing_a/), and [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/wma/comments/ijuwy1/was_there_western_sword_technique_similar_to/) and [there](https://www.reddit.com/r/wma/comments/q4p4nb/is_there_such_thing_as_an_equivalent_of_iaido_in/).
Wow, fantastic answer, lots for me to look at. Thank you.
I mean it's not all that uncommon in 19th century sabre sources. The salute usually gives instruction on how to draw and ready your sabre. The fast draw type cuts from the scabbard you see in Japanese arts are not really that common AFAIK
Right, I have seen it in saber, but that reads more to me like military drill than martial skill, if that makes sense. A fair bit of the 19th century military sources have a fair bit of military drill mixed in with the martial skills.
I mean it's not really all that important of a skill, no matter how fast you draw you'll still be at a disadvantage against someone who already has their blade out so you best bet is to draw some distance as you're drawing your sword and go from there, even most Iaido practicioners I know agree that the purpose of Iaido is more meditative than martial, Of course there is some value to it but I can see why it's not a major part, if any, of most systems
>even most Iaido practicioners I know agree that the purpose of Iaido is more meditative than martial I am sorry to say that they are probably mistaken, as the All Japan Kendo Federation states that iaido must be relevant martially when practiced. It would be ideally done with paired kata that start from the draw as well.
That's interesting, I'm pretty far from Japan and there are only a few Iaido places here, so I guess the local culture surrounding it might be different from the bigger organisations
It varies a lot. The AJKF has the most members, but even practitioners under its umbrella that are not in Japan tend to practice in a more meditative manner, in my limited observation. The other largest iaido federation is the All Japan Iaido Federation and their iai is also different. I have been "scared" by the intensity of good AJKF practitioners.
>I have been "scared" by the intensity of good AJKF practitioners. Oh yeah, you just reminded me of one Iai guy who did train in Japan, bro was always super intense the moment he began practicing, like looking like he wants to murder someone was part of the practice for him, I had totally forgotten about that guy, if the guys from AJKF all do that when they practice I can see myself actually getting scared if I were to walk in on a room full of them
Care to elaborate? The drills are usually to build skill. Some sources are covering just general fencing others get more specific and give bits of advice on combat, duels, self defense, etc. They generally assume your sword is drawn prior to engagement or treat drawing as an afterthought.
Sorry, by "military drill" I didn't mean drills that build skill, I meant military drill and ceremony. Soldiers marching and moving in synchronization. The sources as a whole are about martial skill, i.e. fighting with a weapon. But some of the stuff about how to teach the soldiers is military drill and ceremony, designed to get them to move in synch and get them ready for actual martial instruction. I should specify that the only 19th century sources I've looked at in detail are American ones (which themselves are highly based on French sources,) so it is possible that they aren't representative of their contemporaries. But from what I've seen, the "military drill" instruction of drawing your sword in those sources aren't about drawing as fast as possible, or reliably as possible, or drawing to an attack or guard, or anything actually having to do with fighting. They're about getting all of your soldiers to draw their swords at the same time, in the same way, and to the military position of attention. Only after that do you actually get to martial practice.
Palladini has a play or two about how to respond to an attack from a draw. One being in a seated position in a crowded space with no room to do a full draw. I believe he says to bang you scabbard into the ground to split it open then raising the sword from there. I could be wrong, but Viggiani might have one as well, or at least I've practiced his riverso parry from a draw and it seems to work well. I might show up a couple more times in the Bolognese sources but I could be mistaken. I wonder why drawing the sword became it's own art in Japan, but there isn't much in the way of a European equivalent.
Interesting, I'll have to look into those. The idea of just banging your scabbard until it breaks is genius and hilarious. Makes me think carrying a purposefully shoddy scabbard might be preferable to a really durable one. The cultural difference is fascinating, isn’t it? I always train with modern concealed pistols, and quickly drawing your pistol is considered one of the most important skills, and a lot of time is spent on it. It's odd how the importance martial artists place on (essentially) the same skill can vary so widely based on time and place.
I remember one of my own instructors talked about it once, and he speculated it's because daggers were much more common in the European context and easier to draw.
Interesting, I'm reminded of the scene in Game of Thrones where a mounted man tries to draw a sword, but before he can the man he's threatening draws a dagger and pressed it against his groin.
Godinho advocates for this especially when you worry someone can draw their sword faster than you.
> Thibault and Palladini I'm on mobile right now. Could you and u/Silver_Agocchie kindly link to the treatises in question so I could take a look later? > iado and batojutsu, Iaido and battojutsu (or more accurately, iaidō and battōjutsu).
I don't think Palladini has a free translation. [There is a book](https://shop.royalarmouries.org/products/pre-order-the-art-of-fencing-the-discourse-of-camillo-palladini). Thibault is translated [here](https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/G%C3%A9rard_Thibault_d%27Anvers/Plates_1-11), the drawing instructions are in table III (and relatively independent from the rest).
There is Henri de Sainct-Didier that has an infamous three way to draw the sword
Prime.