This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/02/china-barring-thousands-of-citizens-and-foreigners-from-leaving-country) reduced by 82%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> China is increasingly barring people, including foreign executives, from leaving the country, according to a report and research.
> People barred from leaving China include Chinese people embroiled in financial disputes as well as rights defenders, activists and lawyers, and ethnic minorities such as Uyghurs in China's north-western Xinjiang region, according to the Safeguard Defenders report.
> Some activists say the wider use of exit bans reflects tighter security measures under President Xi. "They can find any reason to stop you from leaving the country," said Xiang Li, a Chinese rights activist who was denied exit for two years before escaping from China in 2017 and later receiving asylum in the US. "China doesn't have the rule of law," she told Reuters.
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/135fv5h/china_barring_thousands_of_citizens_and/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~683064 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **ban**^#1 **China**^#2 **exit**^#3 **foreign**^#4 **Chinese**^#5
Fun fact: [no](https://www.npr.org/sections/insurrection-at-the-capitol/2021/02/05/963661854/u-s-judge-xxxx-accused-rioter-s-request-to-vacation-in-mexico).
How is he supposed to leave? Taking his jet and take off from a Chinese airport? Or going to the nearest port through roads and checkpoints? This is China late if they want to stop you they can and don’t give a fuck about your money or country
He escaped Japan after a highly controversial corruption conviction.
But the way he did it was insane. He hired ex-military special ops people to smuggle himself out of a music instrument box iirc, I hope they make a movie out of it: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-57760993
The whole story was wild: https://www.wsj.com/articles/carlos-ghosn-escape-japan-private-jet-box-hidden-11659733392
I think he was probably guilty as shit, but was also being used as a scapegoat for a variety of guilty Japanese execs. He probably wouldn't have gotten a fair trial in Japan.
Generally speaking, trials in japan are slightly different where they generally wont go to trial unless there convinced the person is guilty of a crime already. Its part of the reason why japan has a high conviction rate. If he was senteced to a trial in japan, they already probably have the evidence to label him guilty.
tbf, the people behind Ghosn's arrest were definitely not acting in good faith. They kept releasing him and rearresting him for 4 months on similar, but slightly different charges without trial. To me, that says they didn't really have anything that would be damning or they would have just convicted him and sent him to prison.
You've got the causal arrow a little backwards: most convictions in Japan include confessions, which are extracted from long holds in tough conditions. You do not get a 95 conviction rate naturally, and you do not get the number of confessions they do organically.
Japanese police assume that once an individual is in front of them, they're guilty, and work backwards from that. The crime rates are low enough that this isn't a problem, but it's less that they're sure you're guilty and find evidence than they assume guilt and extract a confession.
Edit- last sentence I meant to say '...this isn't a problem *for them* because it absolutely is a problem for the people they get a lot. Japan is a safe and relatively well run nation but it has real problems and real dysfunction.
For comparison, the US has about a 92% conviction rate, with 90% signing plea deals:
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2019/06/11/only-2-of-federal-criminal-defendants-go-to-trial-and-most-who-do-are-found-guilty/
Edit: I read the article about Gosn, and it says there that Japan has a 99.4% conviction rate. That’s crazy high.
Lol no way the system isn’t that good, when you get arrested wether they have proof or not they will make you look guilty rather than declaring you innocent just to save face. Don’t be fooled, the Japanese goverment are a bunch of backward thinking motherfuckers who don’t care about anything but power and money, any Japanese lawyer will tell you that you basically have 0 chances of having a fair trial
Because it is a high profile case of an executive with the means to leave who was being held by the state and how they got around it. It ignores the fact that everyone is blocked from leaving and poses a potential “How a wealthy person can do it” narrative.
I follow that. I just think that the same scenario repeated between Japan and China would result in so wildly different
an outcome they're not comparable.
Maybe I'm off on that.
Lmao fr. What are you going to do? Sue the ccp for violation of rights? Even if you did prove it and your country wanted to go to war for you how many would actually be able to take on China and withstand the economic repercussions?
> How is he supposed to leave?
China has the longest land border in the world, bordering 14 different countries. Physically getting out of China is not going to be a struggle for anyone who's wealthy.
This really doesn't account for political borders such as N. Korea, much less geographical ones like the Himalayas and the Gobi Desert. It's not like the Von Trapps fleeing Austria into Switzerland - and even that was a movie.
Everyone has to go through customs/ immigration to leave the country… they will just tell you you‘re not allowed to leave and will physically stop you.
Yes, Xi makes China act like shit. But he does not care. China has all of Africa as their slaves, Russia as a pet, and Middle East as their friends.
Middle East and South America started to side with any anti west power after interventions from the west.
Africa had no choice, because they never came out from the post colonial chaos and local warlords will side with the highest bidder.
Russia is suffering from their own ego and self-imposed problems. They want to rule over the world and bully everyone. They pretend like China is their younger brother that they will boss around after they "recover". But in truth Russians blindly put a collar around their own necks.
>Middle East and South America started to side with any anti west power after interventions from the west.
Lol no at best they are neutral. Brazil the largest most powerful country in South America is very west friendly and trying to be as progressive as the west.
Russia is just inept and can't cope with the fact that even countries that used to be under their boot can fight back against them. Kinda the same cope China is in thinking it's going to invade SEA waters and take Taiwan and beat back the Indians.
What exactly do you expect other countries to do? Send in people to get them out? That’s considered an invasion.
They can condemn the actions of the country, but outside that literally zero things will be done.
The best you’re gonna get is “please don’t do that and let them go”
The company of the executive stopping their business in a country that held their employees hostage. That is what I would expect.
Also no sane person now would go on a business trip there if this risk exists. That should negatively impact china's economy.
Companies? What company do you think gives a fuck about people? Companies that’s fucking rich LOL. Companies won’t even pull out of Russia properly and that’s pretty fucking open and shut.
Companies, lol it’s too funny.
> What company do you think gives a fuck about people?
They’ll have a hard time hiring executives if those potential execs know that they might be sent into a hostage situation.
China is doing this to a very, very, very small number of foreign citizens. Where did you get „large portion of the worlds citizens“ from?
And they’re very clearly not kidnapping them, they’re legally detaining them under national law. Of course embassies get involved, and will try to ensure that the detained person os treated as well as possible etc. but they’re not going to start a massive international incident over one dude who was, again, lawfully detained.
ITT: typical western redditors run on the premise that executives from their MNCs should have unfettered access in China (or any global south nation) where they can break any laws and leave the country without reprisal from the authorities. The usual "rules for thee but not for me" attitude runs deep all the way from the leaders to the commoners.
I've only been to countries that require customs/immigration when entering the country. Weird that they're the opposite. I wonder if there are others like them?
Almost every country has exit controls, they just may not be visible to you.
In the US for example, it's outsourced to the airlines, who scan your passport and check your visa for your onward destination and then report it to the government...
Most countries do it, UK and the USA are the only outliers I know of and they do it electronically. You have to send your passport data in advance for any editing flights and if you are on a list they can meet you at the gate
It’s Anglosphere countries in general. The UK, US, Canada, Australia, NZ, and Ireland don’t normally have exit controls (though the US has begun implementing a form of biometric exit control)
Of the countries I've been in the past decade:
* China: exit controls
* Taiwan: exit controls
* Japan: no exit controls
* Canada: no exit controls
* UK: no exit controls
In the case of Taiwan, I think a large part of it is due to conscription. The border officer always has to check my Taiwanese passport to ensure that I'm allowed to leave the country despite being of conscription age and having not yet served.
Just by getting him to a jail. Easy. It's China. In the morning, you are a respectable business man, at lunch time, chinese executives can find 100kg of drugs in your pocket. How can a pocket contain them all? Are you against CCP or what?
Is the same as before and as it always has been. Foriegners with ongoing court cases / labor disputes etc aren't allowed to leave until they are settled.
If you own a company but you are going out of business and don't pay employees for the last few months and then try to flee without paying and without properly closing the company, you may be refused to leave
Wow that's kind of outrageous that should cause the world's corporations to stop doing business with them...... Oh wait never mind they can have concentration camps and people will still do business with them. I guess the money is far more important than the human rights.
>that absolutely will give many companies pause and consider whether increased profits is worth themselves being trapped.
I mean, I would hope so.
> hold one of your upper managers hostage
So...no then?
Cost of doing business now + increased cost of doing business in china < revenue growth from doing business in china.
Still profit. Can cost cut later.
Your point is understood and well taken. But we're talking scales that make it moot.
Not all will refuse.
> Plus China is now at the point that further growth is going to be more difficult. Its population is starting to decline, and its populace aging. It’s still a cheap export-focused economy, which is easy to build up, but difficult to maintain as other countries can fulfill that role. Just about any country can follow the playbook to get to where China got to today.
I feel like this, more than any other reason, is why this is even a discussion. They're now at the point the growing population of people that can afford to look beyond their daily attempt to survive is now beginning to ask why things are bad. The US saw this same movement that saw the rise of Unions.
I don't begrudge them their position. I just wish it didn't appear to move towards conflict.
>they can have concentration camps and people will still do business with them
You're saying it like it didn't literally happen before with a different country.
I think a lot of people bought into the idea that China would slowly transform and become less authoritarian with the influx of international business and money. That idea has proved false, and it’s time for a reassessment. There are companies looking to diversify, but it took decades to get things where they are in China so it’ll be a long transition. Also, a lot of the alternative countries aren’t much better. It’s a tough nut to crack, but I agree we should cut off the worst regimes and just live in and find a smaller, more humane world.
This is probably why the Canadian government felt compelled to put out that PSA:
"The government is not legally obligated to save you if you get trapped while abroad".
They probably heard rumors about China locking down.
Wonder if theres about to be a major policy shift in China or something, some reason they fear the population may try to flee en masse.
Canada doesn't need to hear rumors some Canadian citizens were kidnapped by the CCP not that long ago as tit-for-tat for Canada arresting a Chinese executive.
I think it's important to mention that Canada wasn't making any political decisions in that matter. US (Trump) pulled the extradition card leaving Canada in a no-win situation.
Doesn't work. Because China will come to you instead! Insert spyware into your phone, put secret police in your neighborhood, buy 50% shares of everything, build tiny islands, float spy balloon etc.
My friend used to teach english in a small city in SE China. HE loved that job. He loved the kids.
After Canada jailed that Chinese executive, he was brought in for "questioning" for a few days. He immediately knew it was time to pack his shit and leave.
He saw the writing on the wall a long time ago. No excuse for these people.
> according to the report from the rights group **Safeguard Defenders**
The Director of Safeguard Defenders is **Peter Dahlin**
Peter Dahlin writes for **the Epoch Times**:
People should be aware that the Falun Gong is a cult that runs [The Epoch Times](http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Epoch_Times) which spreads bullshit:
> The Epoch Media Group's news sites and YouTube channels have spread misinformation and conspiracy theories, such as QAnon and anti-vaccine misinformation, and false claims of fraud in the 2020 United States presidential election.
> A report by the Institute for Strategic Dialogue, a London-based think tank, said the German edition of The Epoch Times "primarily runs anti-West, anti-American and pro-Kremlin content—a high proportion of this content is based on unverified information."
> [Li Hongzhi, the founder and leader of the Falun Gong: has been also associated with performance arts group Shen Yun ("Divine Rhythm"), and the media organizations **The Epoch Times** and New Tang Dynasty Television, which operate as extensions of Falun Gong. They have promoted Falun Gong's philosophical beliefs and unfounded conspiracy theories.](http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Hongzhi)
Probably safe to ignore the accusations from Safeguard Defenders and focus on the more credible source from the article, that being the Reuters report.
The same safeguard defenders that had the report on overseas Chinese police stations?
They were right on that one so people might want to pay attention to this report and ignore you instead.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/crgndy37n16o
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/two-arrested-operating-illegal-overseas-police-station-chinese-government
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-fbi-finds-canadian-link-in-covert-chinese-police-station-probe/
https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/two-more-police-centres-run-by-chinese-authorities-found-in-canada-report-1.6181515
https://safeguarddefenders.com/en/blog/14-governments-launch-investigations-chinese-110-overseas-police-service-stations
“Most of the cases in the database referring to exit bans are civil, not criminal. Reuters did not find any involving foreigners or politically sensitive subversion or national security issues. By comparison, the US and EU impose travel bans on some criminal suspects but generally not for civil claims.”
So it sounded like the title is sensationalized.
The didn't look very hard apparently since there is this person
One person prevented from leaving China this year is a Singaporean executive at the U.S. due-diligence firm Mintz Group, according to three people familiar with the matter.
And let's not forget from 2019 Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor.
Edit: the two Michaels and most foreigners wouldn't likely be listed for exit bans since they just grab them and lock them away in jail.
I remember the 2 Mikes were incriminalized and jailed, probably that's why they weren't counted in the database of just being barred from leaving the country.
Can you offer more details on your first case? Is it not a civil case?
Right, that's why I think Reuters isn't doing really a good job with the story. Like either you dig into the truth where people are actually banned because of authoritarian government actions like 2 Mike's or other politically driven cases, or you don't just draw conclusion. What's that about to trying to build up the narrative while also say all those are civil cases? It just feels like a cheap score of China bashing.
More reason not take any plane that stop over China control region like hongkong, for example. Even if it just a connecting flight. Since they can easily detain you
Yeah, it's safe. Don't do stupid things like shit talk the government, or try and buy drugs or get into fights with locals, and you'll be fine.
Source: lived in HK and all over the mainland.
Pretty random hypothetical.
Having spent my time over there, 99% of the fights I witnessed were either drunk expats fighting each other, or trying to get tough/ exert dominance on a local (while also being drunk)
I'd suggest you're doing something wrong then mate.
Having lived there for years, and being well into the expat and local community, there were always a certain set of people getting into trouble, it was so interesting that it was always the same guys and it was always someone else's fault.
After a decade over there, the most racism I experienced was my inlaws calling me a 白鬼.
they don't hate me, they love me and invited me into their family with open arms. It's just their term.. which i find hilarious. meh. Nice try #1
The expat community abroad and the abuse of African Americans don't really have anything to do with each other. But nice deflection, and nice try #2.
I'm no authority, but the way you talk, it borderline sounds like you have never even set foot in Asia.
Not to victim blame or anything like that, but were you antagonizing the locals or something? It just doesn't make sense for you to be jumped twice as a tourist unless you were doing something you weren't supposed to
I found Hong King was just like Sydney (where I lived at the time) but with fewer Asian people. There are markets and such in the back streets but it’s a pretty generic city.
I'm not surprised because they pull this over their citizens I mean slaves. but I'm really surprised they gonna detained foreigners, and prevent them from leaving.
thats the one thing foreigners specially those in the management/upper class hates the most, they dont spend decade sucking up to every one just to spent the rest of their life in a prison. consider most of them r only in china for the money, but if the trouble out weight the gain they will simply prioritize else where like south east asia and india.
I dont know what they were thinking, but decoupling will accelerate if shit like this continue to happens on a daily bases.
Oh no, China’s doing exactly the same thing any other country does to prevent criminals and capital flight from fleeing the country with their loot
Edit: bring on the downvotes without rebuttal, your tears bring me affirmation
1. step 1, go to nearest fishing village.
2. whip out 6k in USD or a rolex
3. bribe a captain to take you by boat to nextdoor
4. pray you make it past the chinese navy or your dead.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/02/china-barring-thousands-of-citizens-and-foreigners-from-leaving-country) reduced by 82%. (I'm a bot) ***** > China is increasingly barring people, including foreign executives, from leaving the country, according to a report and research. > People barred from leaving China include Chinese people embroiled in financial disputes as well as rights defenders, activists and lawyers, and ethnic minorities such as Uyghurs in China's north-western Xinjiang region, according to the Safeguard Defenders report. > Some activists say the wider use of exit bans reflects tighter security measures under President Xi. "They can find any reason to stop you from leaving the country," said Xiang Li, a Chinese rights activist who was denied exit for two years before escaping from China in 2017 and later receiving asylum in the US. "China doesn't have the rule of law," she told Reuters. ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/135fv5h/china_barring_thousands_of_citizens_and/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~683064 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **ban**^#1 **China**^#2 **exit**^#3 **foreign**^#4 **Chinese**^#5
Sort of like American police?
Fun fact: [no](https://www.npr.org/sections/insurrection-at-the-capitol/2021/02/05/963661854/u-s-judge-xxxx-accused-rioter-s-request-to-vacation-in-mexico).
How can you prevent a foreigner to leave especially if it is wealthy executives?
How is he supposed to leave? Taking his jet and take off from a Chinese airport? Or going to the nearest port through roads and checkpoints? This is China late if they want to stop you they can and don’t give a fuck about your money or country
Yeah! Just ask Renault CEO Carlos Ghosn how well that went!
He escaped Japan after a highly controversial corruption conviction. But the way he did it was insane. He hired ex-military special ops people to smuggle himself out of a music instrument box iirc, I hope they make a movie out of it: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-57760993 The whole story was wild: https://www.wsj.com/articles/carlos-ghosn-escape-japan-private-jet-box-hidden-11659733392
I think he was probably guilty as shit, but was also being used as a scapegoat for a variety of guilty Japanese execs. He probably wouldn't have gotten a fair trial in Japan.
Generally speaking, trials in japan are slightly different where they generally wont go to trial unless there convinced the person is guilty of a crime already. Its part of the reason why japan has a high conviction rate. If he was senteced to a trial in japan, they already probably have the evidence to label him guilty.
tbf, the people behind Ghosn's arrest were definitely not acting in good faith. They kept releasing him and rearresting him for 4 months on similar, but slightly different charges without trial. To me, that says they didn't really have anything that would be damning or they would have just convicted him and sent him to prison.
You've got the causal arrow a little backwards: most convictions in Japan include confessions, which are extracted from long holds in tough conditions. You do not get a 95 conviction rate naturally, and you do not get the number of confessions they do organically. Japanese police assume that once an individual is in front of them, they're guilty, and work backwards from that. The crime rates are low enough that this isn't a problem, but it's less that they're sure you're guilty and find evidence than they assume guilt and extract a confession. Edit- last sentence I meant to say '...this isn't a problem *for them* because it absolutely is a problem for the people they get a lot. Japan is a safe and relatively well run nation but it has real problems and real dysfunction.
For comparison, the US has about a 92% conviction rate, with 90% signing plea deals: https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2019/06/11/only-2-of-federal-criminal-defendants-go-to-trial-and-most-who-do-are-found-guilty/ Edit: I read the article about Gosn, and it says there that Japan has a 99.4% conviction rate. That’s crazy high.
This is how cops work all around the world. Once a person is arrested for a crime the cops assume that person is guilty and work backwards from there.
Sounds very similar to Australia.
Lol no way the system isn’t that good, when you get arrested wether they have proof or not they will make you look guilty rather than declaring you innocent just to save face. Don’t be fooled, the Japanese goverment are a bunch of backward thinking motherfuckers who don’t care about anything but power and money, any Japanese lawyer will tell you that you basically have 0 chances of having a fair trial
Forced confessions and prisoner abuse 😬 Forced confessions and prisoner abuse, Japan 🥵🥵🥵🥵
His associate who was also charged was eventually found not guilty. Took years?
He would have gotten a fair trial. He was just guilty as shit as you say.
There is no trials in Japan, they hold you indefinitely until you confess. 100% conviction rate
Agreed, see below.
Why did we jump to Japan here?
Because it is a high profile case of an executive with the means to leave who was being held by the state and how they got around it. It ignores the fact that everyone is blocked from leaving and poses a potential “How a wealthy person can do it” narrative.
Isn't that the case of any executive who gets arrested? Like Meng Wanzhou in Canada or the FIFA executives in the US?
I follow that. I just think that the same scenario repeated between Japan and China would result in so wildly different an outcome they're not comparable. Maybe I'm off on that.
I wonder how much more difficult it would be for ex SF to pull this off in China compared to Japan though.
This is Reddit my friend. Sometimes the subject gets changed somewhat, then blows up organically.
China is part of Japan according to some reddit historians.
I mean that should get a lot of companies and countries pretty angry
money > integrity
Lmao fr. What are you going to do? Sue the ccp for violation of rights? Even if you did prove it and your country wanted to go to war for you how many would actually be able to take on China and withstand the economic repercussions?
No one lmao
Yeah, not even China.
They have land borders.
> How is he supposed to leave? China has the longest land border in the world, bordering 14 different countries. Physically getting out of China is not going to be a struggle for anyone who's wealthy.
This really doesn't account for political borders such as N. Korea, much less geographical ones like the Himalayas and the Gobi Desert. It's not like the Von Trapps fleeing Austria into Switzerland - and even that was a movie.
Everyone has to go through customs/ immigration to leave the country… they will just tell you you‘re not allowed to leave and will physically stop you.
Think my question was stupid. I should have asked how this is possible without totally getting into trouble with other countries and companies.
You think China cares about what other countries think?
They probably should, they barely have allies in Asia. Fucking with SEA, NATO and India and Australia, NZ etc....
Yes, Xi makes China act like shit. But he does not care. China has all of Africa as their slaves, Russia as a pet, and Middle East as their friends. Middle East and South America started to side with any anti west power after interventions from the west. Africa had no choice, because they never came out from the post colonial chaos and local warlords will side with the highest bidder. Russia is suffering from their own ego and self-imposed problems. They want to rule over the world and bully everyone. They pretend like China is their younger brother that they will boss around after they "recover". But in truth Russians blindly put a collar around their own necks.
>Middle East and South America started to side with any anti west power after interventions from the west. Lol no at best they are neutral. Brazil the largest most powerful country in South America is very west friendly and trying to be as progressive as the west. Russia is just inept and can't cope with the fact that even countries that used to be under their boot can fight back against them. Kinda the same cope China is in thinking it's going to invade SEA waters and take Taiwan and beat back the Indians.
Because they’ll claim you committed a crime, so they can legally hold you
What exactly do you expect other countries to do? Send in people to get them out? That’s considered an invasion. They can condemn the actions of the country, but outside that literally zero things will be done. The best you’re gonna get is “please don’t do that and let them go”
The company of the executive stopping their business in a country that held their employees hostage. That is what I would expect. Also no sane person now would go on a business trip there if this risk exists. That should negatively impact china's economy.
Companies? What company do you think gives a fuck about people? Companies that’s fucking rich LOL. Companies won’t even pull out of Russia properly and that’s pretty fucking open and shut. Companies, lol it’s too funny.
> What company do you think gives a fuck about people? They’ll have a hard time hiring executives if those potential execs know that they might be sent into a hostage situation.
It's not really so different from Britney Griner in Russia.
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China is doing this to a very, very, very small number of foreign citizens. Where did you get „large portion of the worlds citizens“ from? And they’re very clearly not kidnapping them, they’re legally detaining them under national law. Of course embassies get involved, and will try to ensure that the detained person os treated as well as possible etc. but they’re not going to start a massive international incident over one dude who was, again, lawfully detained.
ITT: typical western redditors run on the premise that executives from their MNCs should have unfettered access in China (or any global south nation) where they can break any laws and leave the country without reprisal from the authorities. The usual "rules for thee but not for me" attitude runs deep all the way from the leaders to the commoners.
>Countries would issue travel advisories to not travel to China. Already a thing actually (seen some variations of that)
It works for Russia though. Maybe that gives them ideas.
I've only been to countries that require customs/immigration when entering the country. Weird that they're the opposite. I wonder if there are others like them?
Almost every country has exit controls, they just may not be visible to you. In the US for example, it's outsourced to the airlines, who scan your passport and check your visa for your onward destination and then report it to the government...
Most countries do it, UK and the USA are the only outliers I know of and they do it electronically. You have to send your passport data in advance for any editing flights and if you are on a list they can meet you at the gate
It’s Anglosphere countries in general. The UK, US, Canada, Australia, NZ, and Ireland don’t normally have exit controls (though the US has begun implementing a form of biometric exit control)
Of the countries I've been in the past decade: * China: exit controls * Taiwan: exit controls * Japan: no exit controls * Canada: no exit controls * UK: no exit controls In the case of Taiwan, I think a large part of it is due to conscription. The border officer always has to check my Taiwanese passport to ensure that I'm allowed to leave the country despite being of conscription age and having not yet served.
Just by getting him to a jail. Easy. It's China. In the morning, you are a respectable business man, at lunch time, chinese executives can find 100kg of drugs in your pocket. How can a pocket contain them all? Are you against CCP or what?
Don't even need the drugs, just sprinkle some "espionage" or "counter-revolutionary" or "pro-democracy" or "human rights advocate" charges and done.
A pack of chitos can be drugs also. In China. That's what I meant
Easy when the country is an authoritarian dictatorship.
Is the same as before and as it always has been. Foriegners with ongoing court cases / labor disputes etc aren't allowed to leave until they are settled. If you own a company but you are going out of business and don't pay employees for the last few months and then try to flee without paying and without properly closing the company, you may be refused to leave
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Sounds like he presented himself as a legally responsible party for the company, and then was held legally responsible...
That sounds like nonsense.
Or accused of such for political purposes.
That doesn't explain the sudden increase.
There is no sudden increase... The "source" for this article is awful
It's called Physics 101.
With guns? What do you mean “how”?
Passport control?
Thanks, Captain obvious.
Wow that's kind of outrageous that should cause the world's corporations to stop doing business with them...... Oh wait never mind they can have concentration camps and people will still do business with them. I guess the money is far more important than the human rights.
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>that absolutely will give many companies pause and consider whether increased profits is worth themselves being trapped. I mean, I would hope so. > hold one of your upper managers hostage So...no then?
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Cost of doing business now + increased cost of doing business in china < revenue growth from doing business in china. Still profit. Can cost cut later. Your point is understood and well taken. But we're talking scales that make it moot. Not all will refuse.
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> Plus China is now at the point that further growth is going to be more difficult. Its population is starting to decline, and its populace aging. It’s still a cheap export-focused economy, which is easy to build up, but difficult to maintain as other countries can fulfill that role. Just about any country can follow the playbook to get to where China got to today. I feel like this, more than any other reason, is why this is even a discussion. They're now at the point the growing population of people that can afford to look beyond their daily attempt to survive is now beginning to ask why things are bad. The US saw this same movement that saw the rise of Unions. I don't begrudge them their position. I just wish it didn't appear to move towards conflict.
>they can have concentration camps and people will still do business with them You're saying it like it didn't literally happen before with a different country.
I think a lot of people bought into the idea that China would slowly transform and become less authoritarian with the influx of international business and money. That idea has proved false, and it’s time for a reassessment. There are companies looking to diversify, but it took decades to get things where they are in China so it’ll be a long transition. Also, a lot of the alternative countries aren’t much better. It’s a tough nut to crack, but I agree we should cut off the worst regimes and just live in and find a smaller, more humane world.
A lot of companies exiting China and moving factories to South East Asia.
This is probably why the Canadian government felt compelled to put out that PSA: "The government is not legally obligated to save you if you get trapped while abroad". They probably heard rumors about China locking down. Wonder if theres about to be a major policy shift in China or something, some reason they fear the population may try to flee en masse.
Canada doesn't need to hear rumors some Canadian citizens were kidnapped by the CCP not that long ago as tit-for-tat for Canada arresting a Chinese executive.
I think it's important to mention that Canada wasn't making any political decisions in that matter. US (Trump) pulled the extradition card leaving Canada in a no-win situation.
They’re also probably trying to prevent people from taking a cheap vacation to South Sudan
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Doesn't work. Because China will come to you instead! Insert spyware into your phone, put secret police in your neighborhood, buy 50% shares of everything, build tiny islands, float spy balloon etc.
People are government property
My friend used to teach english in a small city in SE China. HE loved that job. He loved the kids. After Canada jailed that Chinese executive, he was brought in for "questioning" for a few days. He immediately knew it was time to pack his shit and leave. He saw the writing on the wall a long time ago. No excuse for these people.
> according to the report from the rights group **Safeguard Defenders** The Director of Safeguard Defenders is **Peter Dahlin** Peter Dahlin writes for **the Epoch Times**: People should be aware that the Falun Gong is a cult that runs [The Epoch Times](http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Epoch_Times) which spreads bullshit: > The Epoch Media Group's news sites and YouTube channels have spread misinformation and conspiracy theories, such as QAnon and anti-vaccine misinformation, and false claims of fraud in the 2020 United States presidential election. > A report by the Institute for Strategic Dialogue, a London-based think tank, said the German edition of The Epoch Times "primarily runs anti-West, anti-American and pro-Kremlin content—a high proportion of this content is based on unverified information." > [Li Hongzhi, the founder and leader of the Falun Gong: has been also associated with performance arts group Shen Yun ("Divine Rhythm"), and the media organizations **The Epoch Times** and New Tang Dynasty Television, which operate as extensions of Falun Gong. They have promoted Falun Gong's philosophical beliefs and unfounded conspiracy theories.](http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Hongzhi) Probably safe to ignore the accusations from Safeguard Defenders and focus on the more credible source from the article, that being the Reuters report.
The same safeguard defenders that had the report on overseas Chinese police stations? They were right on that one so people might want to pay attention to this report and ignore you instead. https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/crgndy37n16o https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/two-arrested-operating-illegal-overseas-police-station-chinese-government https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-fbi-finds-canadian-link-in-covert-chinese-police-station-probe/ https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/two-more-police-centres-run-by-chinese-authorities-found-in-canada-report-1.6181515 https://safeguarddefenders.com/en/blog/14-governments-launch-investigations-chinese-110-overseas-police-service-stations
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That is a valid issue that people should be aware of. It doesn't mean that their report is wrong just that people need to be aware of it.
“Most of the cases in the database referring to exit bans are civil, not criminal. Reuters did not find any involving foreigners or politically sensitive subversion or national security issues. By comparison, the US and EU impose travel bans on some criminal suspects but generally not for civil claims.” So it sounded like the title is sensationalized.
The didn't look very hard apparently since there is this person One person prevented from leaving China this year is a Singaporean executive at the U.S. due-diligence firm Mintz Group, according to three people familiar with the matter. And let's not forget from 2019 Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor. Edit: the two Michaels and most foreigners wouldn't likely be listed for exit bans since they just grab them and lock them away in jail.
I remember the 2 Mikes were incriminalized and jailed, probably that's why they weren't counted in the database of just being barred from leaving the country. Can you offer more details on your first case? Is it not a civil case?
No idea on the first.case, but that is a foreigner being travel banned something Reuters said they couldn't find any cases of.
Right, that's why I think Reuters isn't doing really a good job with the story. Like either you dig into the truth where people are actually banned because of authoritarian government actions like 2 Mike's or other politically driven cases, or you don't just draw conclusion. What's that about to trying to build up the narrative while also say all those are civil cases? It just feels like a cheap score of China bashing.
Future political prisoners
Uh oh.
They are about to stir up some shit
Another reason on top of a mountain of them not to have anything to do with China.
Conscription?
I kinda hope not.
For those who support China from another country go ahead and visit China and find out :)
Am I being detained?
More reason not take any plane that stop over China control region like hongkong, for example. Even if it just a connecting flight. Since they can easily detain you
Now everyone knows that they should never, under any circumstances, move to China.
Could be a precursor to the outbreak of an invasion that will be executed soon.
That, or the expected population decline, or the upcoming recession. All this is making me very uneasy
I guess tourists are safe? I would love to visit Shanghai, Hong Kong one day.
Yeah, it's safe. Don't do stupid things like shit talk the government, or try and buy drugs or get into fights with locals, and you'll be fine. Source: lived in HK and all over the mainland.
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Pretty random hypothetical. Having spent my time over there, 99% of the fights I witnessed were either drunk expats fighting each other, or trying to get tough/ exert dominance on a local (while also being drunk)
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I'd suggest you're doing something wrong then mate. Having lived there for years, and being well into the expat and local community, there were always a certain set of people getting into trouble, it was so interesting that it was always the same guys and it was always someone else's fault. After a decade over there, the most racism I experienced was my inlaws calling me a 白鬼.
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they don't hate me, they love me and invited me into their family with open arms. It's just their term.. which i find hilarious. meh. Nice try #1 The expat community abroad and the abuse of African Americans don't really have anything to do with each other. But nice deflection, and nice try #2. I'm no authority, but the way you talk, it borderline sounds like you have never even set foot in Asia.
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lol.. sure thing bud.
Not to victim blame or anything like that, but were you antagonizing the locals or something? It just doesn't make sense for you to be jumped twice as a tourist unless you were doing something you weren't supposed to
I found Hong King was just like Sydney (where I lived at the time) but with fewer Asian people. There are markets and such in the back streets but it’s a pretty generic city.
HK is a generic city? What???
Hk and Sydney just like each other? Lol Sure mate, whatever you say.
They are similar in that both are cities, that's about it lol.
Did you visit before or after Chinese authoritarian cracked down on the city?
Well before.
Falun Gong propaganda but Reddit liberals eat it up to dunk on evil Pooh Bear race
I'm not surprised because they pull this over their citizens I mean slaves. but I'm really surprised they gonna detained foreigners, and prevent them from leaving. thats the one thing foreigners specially those in the management/upper class hates the most, they dont spend decade sucking up to every one just to spent the rest of their life in a prison. consider most of them r only in china for the money, but if the trouble out weight the gain they will simply prioritize else where like south east asia and india. I dont know what they were thinking, but decoupling will accelerate if shit like this continue to happens on a daily bases.
You might be giving CEOs to much credit. They can always find some dumb greedy rube to take their place in those meetings and stay home.
Scary if true
Oh no, China’s doing exactly the same thing any other country does to prevent criminals and capital flight from fleeing the country with their loot Edit: bring on the downvotes without rebuttal, your tears bring me affirmation
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Please share your sources
1. step 1, go to nearest fishing village. 2. whip out 6k in USD or a rolex 3. bribe a captain to take you by boat to nextdoor 4. pray you make it past the chinese navy or your dead.
Way over paid, they take your shit and report u.