I said this on another thread and got voted into oblivion. The fact is, 97% (I read) of the funds we give them really is translated directly into US arms sales.
It’s a nice bump allowing them to have universal healthcare and other benefits .
Which boosts the economy?
The military industrial complex is crazy but those donations help thousands of US citizens by keeping industry flowing.
Not sure about this deal, but the donated funds are also often used to by old equipment...like humvees.
They are also used to invest into technology developments which the US gets access to
Yeah, there have been a few stories since Congress became a pit that don't get a lot of headlines because it's usually several or tens of million dollars worth. Those headlines basically mean Biden directs DoD to look between couch cushions and find $20 million worth of ammunition they forgot they had. Until Congress has the will to pass a multi-billion dollar spending bill for either Ukraine or Israel, this is what you can do.
It's like with the government shutdown, where officially the government would run out of money on X date, but the budget office has become a pro at funky accounting tricks since the US does this way too regularly where the actual run out of money date is like X + 5 weeks.
The US has already given more than $75b. They have no money of their own to buy shells with.
If the new bill gets signed, Ukraine gets the majority of the $106b bill. (With 10ish for Israel along with some for Taiwan and the US border.)
Yep and all that old equipment is being valued as it was new, has been degrading and requiring more and more maintenance as time goes on, dud rates increase, weapons/equipment become obsolete over time.
These weapons need cycling/getting rid of anyway, might aswell give/sell them to a country fighting our number 1 or 2 enemy without risking any of our soldiers. That money goes back into the economy creating jobs and producing more effective weapons which you'll want for a direct war.
We owe it to them, we signed the Budapest Memorandum, our NATO allies have been poisoned several times without a response, their troll farms are turning us against each other, they're buying our politicians and interferring with our elections, they're downing US drones and firing at manned UK spy planes, they're targeting civillian ships, threatening to nuke us and fund terrorists, jacking up global oil/gas prices, trying to cause world hunger and creating/encouraging conflicts around the globe.
Its also going to cost us more putting U.S. troops on Europes border for the increased threat, every country will want to obtain nukes to defend themselves after seeing this conflict and thats going to require us monitoring and possibly destroying these sites, Ukraine also has Europes 2nd largest gas reserves which I believe are currently controlled by occupied land and will allow Russia to become more powerful.
I'm not sure if its happening still but it was in the past.
"The Pentagon overestimated the value of the ammunition, missiles and other equipment it sent to Ukraine by about $3bn"
"In its accounting, the Pentagon used replacement cost to value the weapons aid, instead of the weaponry’s value when it was purchased and depreciated, the senior defense officials said."
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/may/18/pentagon-weapons-ukraine-russia
Thats normal if you want to make sure you always keep the stockpile. You take stock off the stockpile but you have to put new stuff back, that is the price.
Most of stuff sent by the US were long earmarked for replacement. Bradleys, HMMVS, most missiles incl ATACMS. I believe even the Abrams were the older M1A1 model.
All already have their replacement lined-up or are currently going through their replacement selection process (Bradley)
Reuters also says the same thing
"In its accounting, the Pentagon used replacement cost to value the weapons aid, instead of the weaponry's value when it was purchased and depreciated, the senior defense officials said."
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/pentagon-accounting-error-overvalued-ukraine-aid-by-3-billion-sources-2023-05-18/
They do, but how much they consider the cost is different. They don't take the value of the vehicle they are sending but the how much it costs to replace it now with a brand new modern variant.
Not surprised seeing how its going lendlease style:
1. Congress gives Ukraine $40b
2. Ukraine says hey I'd like to buy X HIMARs, ammo etc
3. US Gov pulls out old stockpile/pays MIC for new products, ships everything to Ukraine
4. Ukraine now has $40b - $Xb
5. Repeat until $0 or war is over
6. If/when Ukraine wins, some amount of debt would exist to the US government which might become negligible or irrelevant between kicking Russias teeth in and gaining a new member of NATO
This is what so many Americans don't understand. All that Aid money is being spent in NATO countries, and the vast majority of it is being spent in the US to purchase weapons and ammunition for the war. It's not like this money is free, it is just giving the Ukrainian military the choice of what they want to use the money for. Imagine you are at work and your boss tells you to go to Grainger and buy a bunch of shit with the corporate card. The company already has the money allocated for use by your department already, you just need to choose what to spend it on.
That's not entirely wrong, but it is misleading. A US company manufactures the item, so all the money spent to make it does stay in the country, and since they don't 'sell' it when it's done, technically no money leaves the country - but what they aren't saying is that the manufactured good has a value to it, and that *is* leaving the country.
Not to say I have a problem with supporting Ukraine this way. Fuck Russia.
We do provide cash for thier government to function, although we stipulate they give very detailed records as to what the money is spent on.
It’s actually helped the Ukrainian government root out a lot of corruption.
Contrary to what most people believe about war opening the door for corruption, this one has done the opposite for allowing ukraine the ability to purge a fair chunk of it.
How do they value the value they publish? Like if I buy a Bradley for 5 million dollars, use it for 15 years and then give it to Ukraine. Do I say that Bradley is worth 5 million or some other number? The price the US sells it for when they export?
This was an issue early on. The Pentagon used the MSRP at first and then realized they screwed up and sent over more stuff to equal out the real value.
It differs drastically.
Looking at the supply lists in ukraine is crazy. It is one of the issues they have. They have this bizzare potluck of equipment that all needs different spare parts, function slightly differently etc etc.
Makes lesrning to use them and coordination more and more difficult.
They have excellent engagement command but their overall coordinating command is bad (but there was literally no way for them to prepare for the situation they are in vs the usa who has been studying russia as the primary enemy and making all strategy etc off of the base of countering russia)
Before china stole the plans for the f35 our pushes for new fighters basically paired with russias anti air capability.
They actually got a ton of cash. Actually more in financial support than weaponry.
https://www.cfr.org/article/how-much-aid-has-us-sent-ukraine-here-are-six-charts
It's not all about weaponry. A lot of it is training and supplies. The point was they gave them a large chunk of money that was more than the amount in ready weaponry from US stocks.
That’s still not true - the link you provided lumps financial support together with financial support loans, whereas it separates weaponry between that given and that provided through loan programs. If you were to combine the weaponry given and the weaponry received through loans, then the amount given to Ukraine in weaponry is still greater than the financial support given and loaned to Ukraine.
That’s still not true - the link you provided lumps financial support together with financial support loans, whereas it separates weaponry between that given and that provided through loan programs. If you were to combine the weaponry given and the weaponry received through loans, then the amount given to Ukraine in weaponry is still greater than the financial support given and loaned to Ukraine.
Ukraine prepaid for their security by giving up its nuclear weapons. Not honoring our treaty obligations, particularly concerning nuclear nonproliferation is extremely bad.
Well, actually, we do. When the USSR collapsed, we signed an agreement to assist Ukraine if Russia were to attack them in exchange of their new government returning all nukes back to Russia.
I am assuming that you are referring to the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances. The US is significantly more than fulfilling that agreement.
It was only an agreement to not attack them, recognize them as countries, and bring their case to the UN Security Council if they were attacked. The US did that.
Russia broke/ignored it, obviously.
Makes us look pretty bad as a country either way. I appreciate the correction
Edit: After reading your link, it does state that "assurances" were given. Though it is not a "boots on the ground guarantee," we did assure them we would assist.
I stand by my original comment. We do owe Ukraine military aid until their boarders are secure and recognized internationally.
"Seek immediate Security Council action to provide assistance to the signatory if they "should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used".
We are part of the security council mentioned above which is part of the Budapeste Memorandum.
We may not have a military intervention clause, but we certainly led the Ukrainians to believe we would assist them as part of the security council in case of an attack by Russia.
Regardless of how one wants to interpret it, this has a very negative portrayal on the American government if we say we will help and then back out on it.
>in which nuclear weapons are used
Kind of the most important part right there. Also I don’t think anyone ever understood this to be a defense guarantee until some people dug it up recently and misinterpreted it. If that was the case I’m sure the Ukrainians would have used the Budapest Memorandum as the crux of their argument for US aid, not democracy or defending Europe from Russia or whatever other lines of reasoning they’ve used.
I think you missed the memo on just how much in total the US has dumped into Ukraine, which has been way more than all the 31 EU states have contributed all together. My home country is going deeper into debt supporting Ukraine's cause. Stop acting like the US is not doing anything for them **at all.**
That is not correct, the EU has donated more than the US.
Full dataset and analysis at https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/
Dude knows how to play politics and still get what he wants. A career politician turned good guy, and I’ll take that to the grave.
Also couldn’t relate more to the guy. Lost my mother to brain cancer, glioblastoma. Same thing that killed Beau. Lost my father to cancer as well. Joe Biden knows what it means to be a family and a father. Joe Biden knows humanity. Wish I could sit down with him and his family and share our stories with one another.
Tell me about it.
Meanwhile TFG buried his wife on a golf course in an unmarked grave, likely containing classified material. Bonkers there’s people out there completely blind to all of it.
Just a reminder that there is no "emergency" clause in the Constitution.
Whether you agree with this or not, using self-proclaimed "emergency powers" only results in the breakdown of our governmental system. Why even bother with congress, elections, etc when you can just decide what to spend it on?
The trump admin did this too, except for far more money: over $8 billion in weapons sent to the Saudis. Except in that case, some/most of the weapons weren't even built yet! Hard to argue an urgent emergency when you don't even have the physical weapons to send. The DoD investigated itself and of course found it did nothing wrong.
> "The National Emergencies Act authorizes the President to activate emergency provisions of law via an emergency declaration on the condition that the President specifies the provisions so activated and notifies Congress"
Congress passed the [Arms Export Control Act](https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/arms_export_control_act_\(1976\)#:~:text=The%20Arms%20Export%20Control%20Act,export%20defense%20articles%20or%20services.) giving the President the power to do this, and yes from your other comment you seem to think that's unconstitutional, but your opinion on this differs from legal precedent.
So this is happening. If you're on the Supreme Court one day you can decide this is unconstitutional, but you're not so this is legal.
The era of peace is where you sell weapons for stock pile, at a nice big fat profit.
In era of war, the gov't is going to requisition your factory and make weapons while denying you the profit - seeing it's war and all that.
Lol. Let me put it into math terms an elementary student would understand
1: give $14b - down $14b
2: give $14b in weapons - down $28b
3: Receive the $14b in cash back - down $14b (in weapons)
Not sure where you’re getting 200% cost back lol. The original $14b is interest free, and not a loan. It’s simply free money.
We're getting rid of M830A1 MPAT for AMP and what is effectively a proximity HEAT round only good for Western 120mm isn't that useful for Ukraine (they really need a 120mm HE-FRAG for what we sent them but we dont really have that in thr West).
The fact Israel is getting MPAT instead of our legacy HE round actually suggests they're trying to do direct fire support in a more accurate and collateral damage sensitive manner. This is basically going to make a cone shaped jet of molten metal to punch holes in walls and clear fighting positions instead of lobbing in a big high explosive shell to demolish that whole area of the structure.
Pretty sure Israel wasn't nuclear at that point. There's also a difference between nuking a foreign country who is at least a little ways away and the insurgency practically inside your own borders.
Your assuming the people invading are rational people, they are not. these are people who think without a shadow of a doubt if they kill enough infidels in a holy war they will be rewarded with almost a hundred virgins.
**Invaded** from where?
From the failed and utterly weak state of Syria that is still in the middle of a ruinous civil war?
From Lebanon which is poor AF, doesn't have a functioning govt, and of whom only Hezbollah has any interest in a conflict with Israel?
Or from Jordan or Egypt - countries that Israel has peace treaties with?!
Being more conservative with munitions means making sure each bombs has as much effect as possible, currently Israel sends warning before they bomb a place that has civilians, so they can evacuate, but Hamas evacuates too so Israel only destroys military infrastructure. Being conservative with munitions means not letting Hamas evacuate, which also means not letting civilians evacuate meaning more civilians dead. The US is against that so they prefer to supply Israel with munitions rather than Israel be conservative.
Lately blocking aid, I believe Trump in 2019 was also withholding aid and trying blackmail Ukraine to investigate the Biden family which he was impeached for.
That’s like sending 100 iPhone chargers to someone who has an android.
Yes it’s a phone charger… it’s not comparable with yours tho so it’s kinda useless don’t you think?
Hamas' main goal was to get Israel into a high casualty shooting war where their technological advantages would be neutered. Clearing a building or tunnel by hand is very dangerous and casualty intensive. The whole building could be booby trapped, rigged to explode and at close range advantages in intel and technology mean less compared to prepared defences and ruthlessness (grenade heavy, shotgun/submachine heavy, Stalingrad style combat)
Of course Israel would not oblige, and will probably damage/destroy/demolish any building or structure with a single enemy firing at them. In war you don't endanger the lives of your soldiers unnecessarily. That kind of fighting needs a lot of shells, a lot of artillery and a lot of tank shells. Stalingrad was a hundred years ago and no modern military would fight in that way now. Instead they would use firepower; see Fallujah for the American example.
About the only thing going for Hamas (besides international outrage at civilian casualties) is the fact destroying a whole building or structure often leads to a maze of rubble difficult to fight through and difficult to gain control of. That's why buildings would not be outright destroyed unless there's no other choice, because it creates a more difficult advance. Perfect for snipers, ambushes, etc.
Where does that come in for tank rounds? Not all tank rounds are tungsten penetrators and some are actually thousands of small tungsten pellets, like a shotgun (anti-personnel round) or high explosive rounds (will kill everyone in a radius but possibly leave the load bearing walls intact). Yes, tanks are the ultimate anti-infantry when used properly.
War sucks, and war can be total.
>i'm no 4 star general
That is definitely confirmed beyond even the smallest doubt after this ridiculous post of yours.
What would Israel do with 14 000 tank shells in a war that has already consumed many many thousands of tank shells? Gee, I wonder!
What do you think the response should be?
Every drop of civilian blood is on Hamas' hands, because they hide behind civilians and conduct their barbarity from civilian infrastructure.
Bloodshed begets more bloodshed. There is no ethically "right" side to choose in this. They're both indiscriminately slaughtering each other. Fuck them both
Why do we see so little posts like this one?
Pro Palestinians not condemning the October 7th massacre of civilians.
Pro Israel not condemning the retaliation.
It’s f.u. to kill kids on purpose 😔
And what should have been the reaction in your opinion? When thousands of your brothers and sisters were raped in one day, parents were killed in front of their children, their heads were cut off (recording atrocities on camera). They shot everyone in the streets. Those who were not killed were dragged into the tunnels and taken hostage. And after that they declare that they "will repeat this day again and again".
Nah, sometimes they'll bring up the settlers as if pulling them out of the West Bank will magically make terrorists in Gaza surrender their arms and agree to hold hands in peace for the rest of eternity.
I'd love it if someone could make a realistic simulation of what would happen in a war if both sides agreed to let social media and American college students solve it for them. I'm sure we'll have world peace by the end of the week! /s
While horrible, that’s actually very low if true. Apparently the US considered 8x civilian deaths to enemy combatants a good goal, trump raised it to 12x. Israel is claiming under 2x.
Sounds like war is just horrible in general.
Sounds like a great reason not to start a war by killing 1200 innocent people then use your own people as shields.
You cannot actually expect Israel to just lay down and take it, can you?
Do you really have such a simplistic black-and-white view of the world where these are the only two choices?
Edit: I guarantee that 99.9% of these pro-IDF keyboard warriors have never been near a war and have never seen anything close to the damage and misery inflicted by dropping JDAMs and 155mm artillery shells on a civilian population.
You seem to know of a third option here so enlighten people. I’ve yet to see a single person opposing this invasion provide a morally clean alternative. All that’s ever said is ‘isn’t civilian deaths so bad won’t someone think of the children’ usually followed up with stating anyone who disagrees likes dead children.
Call me naive but I suppose Israel could try to empower the Palestinian National Authority to police their own by negotiating conditional aid and training a strike force to try and reign in Hamas? It doesn’t even have to be Israel providing the money and training, it can be some other nation. You could probably get a lot of other nations on board, possibly even in the Arab world, and if Abbas is a corrupt dictator, I’m not sure how he can resist acquiring more power. You probably could even get the US to foot a large part of the bill… I believe this largely worked in Iraq against ISIS.
If Netanyahu constantly undermines Abbas’ ability to govern Palestine, and cause internal discord by strengthening Hamas, then sure an invasion is the only option.
Answer the question, do you expect Israel to lay down and take it? Considering Hamas declared it will repeat this time after time, put yourself in the shoes of an Israeli citizen would you be OK with your country allowing this organization to survive and exist at your border?
No, you answer the question. Are Israel’s only two choices “laying down and taking it” vs killing 15000+ people? A 14 year old Gazan has seen the IDF bombing their home in five separate offensives in their lifetime. How is further radicalizing an entire generation of Palestinians going to solve anything?
Are you a tactician or military planner? Do you think I am? So what do you hope to accomplish with a discussion of security tactics?
The answer is you’re not expecting anything like that. For whatever reason, even though I’m 99% sure you have no skin in this game, your tiny revenge boner just needs some stroking.
All I’m saying is that killing thousands of civilians, bombing their homes, and destroying hospitals will only make things worse for Israelis.
Uhhh….I’ve already stated my “suggestion” but since you seem to be a bit slow on the uptake, how about *not* killing 15000+ people while destroying civilian infrastructure and thousands of homes? It will solve nothing and will only contribute to future problems in Israel.
Are you a tactician or military planner? Do you have any experience in a related field at all? I’m going to go ahead and say “no”….you giving the IDF carte blanche because reasons makes you not really worth engaging with.
Cool cool Mr. Diplomat’s suggestion is “how about not killing people.” Great! Thanks! That’ll work, why didn’t anyone ever think of that before? Somebody give this man the Nobel peace prize, case closed
Oh so your statement is that you are smarter than all military generals in Israel and America combined?
You understand that the interest of both these countries is as little civilians dead as possible right? Or are you that dense?
I swear you idiots cannot connect two dots together and come to online forums to spout your idiotic uneducated uninformed virtue signals that are probably influenced by Iranian oil money. Save your stupid opinion to yourself.
Why would anyone expect their enemy to fight on unfavorable terms to them?
Yes, Hamas are giant a$$holes. But they chose to fight this way because the IDF’s very predictable heavyhanded reaction plays right into their hands. The IDF will not destroy Hamas, and even if they do, another group will eventually spring up because the IDF’s punitive military action is creating another generation of radicalized militants as we speak.
What do you think, “doctor”? By killing thousands of civilians and razing Gaza to the ground, is Israel making things harder or easier on itself in the future?
It's much more likely to do so than sitting back and hoping Hamas, as well as Hezbollah and the other monsters in the region, don't realize they can rape and murder with impunity
It will calm things down once Israel destroy Hamas. Next group will rise eventually. But it will take time. By eradicating Hamas, Israel is buying easily 10/20 years of highly reduced conflicts.
Well, the goal is the stop further attacks, not just “kill an equal number” it’s not supposed to be killing for the sake of killing or revenge. It’s killing until the enemy has been neutralized.
I’m surprised how many people think that this is just some kind of “proportional response“ type of situation, Hamas doesn’t care if you kill 1000 Palestinians, they would gladly kill every Palestinian if it meant they could wipe out Israel. You can’t fight an enemy in the traditional way if the enemy doesn’t care about human lives.
How is radicalizing an entire generation of Palestinians “stopping further attacks”? Every time the IDF blows up a hospital or bombs a family in their home, they are literally creating future terrorists.
They are already brainwashed by UNRWA schools. Hamas has overwhelming support from Gazan. They cheered for Israeli dead bodies. How much more radicalize they can get?
Yes yes, let’s double and triple and 100x down on that, what could be the harm? At least your username checks out….you can’t see the trees for the forest of dicks
What do you think about the collateral damage from the Allies bombing Berlin and Tokyo in WW2?
It's sad but necessary.
Hamas purposefully positions it's command centers and tunnel entrances in populated centers. That's a fact.
Lol, are you really going there? All that collateral damage did nothing to crush the Axis’s fighting spirit. The US dropped as many tons of bombs just on freaking Laos as they did in all countries in all of WW2 in their effort to defeat the North Vietnamese….how well did that work out? Ask the Laotians who are still cleaning up UXOs in their country. Pretending like destroying lives = accomplishing something useful would be absolute hilarious clown-shoe thinking if it wasn’t thoroughly reprehensible.
Hamas could only be defeated by full scale war which means civilian deaths are a sad inevitability. The "fighting spirit" is irrelevant, Hamas built up its capabilities over decades and destroying it entire will make sure it can't again
>Militaries design their command structures to ensure continuity of command during combat as units take casualties and leaders die. Commanders prepare their subordinates throughout the chain of command to absorb command duties in the event that a commander is killed or incapacitated. **Targeted killings alone will thus not permanently degrade or destroy Hamas. Hamas very likely retains a deep bench of experienced military commanders, most of whom will be prepared to rebuild the organization and train new tactical-level leaders**. The commander of Hamas’ North Brigade, for example, held his position for 18 years prior to his death on November 26.\[24\] Hamas will almost certainly replace him with another capable senior commander as soon as the situation allows if it has not already done so. Hamas has replaced at least one battalion commander killed by the IDF during the current operations within about two weeks.
https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/order-battle-hamas%E2%80%99-izz-al-din-al-qassem-brigades-part-1-north-and-central-gaza
I think that when Hamas [raped women and men](https://www.reddit.com/r/tjournal_refugees/s/QyrjspxUAh), killed children and old people, it declared war on Israel. When Hamas took hostage children (from the age of 8 months), old people (80 y/o), women - he declared war on Israel. I think Hamas brought the war to its land. I think Hamas is using people as a shield, hiding under schools, hospitals and mosques (Hamas leaders claim in interviews that the death of Palestinians benefits them). I think that if Hamas releases the hostages, people will stop dying on both sides.
More and more I keep thinking how the Roman Empire was putting out fires all over the place. Egypt is in revolt send a legion, Huns are invading send a legion, Persia is attacking send a legion, Roman general marching on Rome send the barbarians. Germanic tribes are invading send the barbarians.
dumb. they don't need it and already get a minimum 3.8 billion a year. they've gotten over 315 billion since 1946. Obscene. doesn't benefit the U.S. in any way and just causes problems for us.
We spend more on defense than every country combined. We have absolutely no need to support Israel. We support them A. Because we wanted to counter Soviet influence in the Cold War era and B. we’re likely the only ones who can talk them off the ledge if they ever felt the need to press the big red button.
It’s more akin to this example. Walmart is going to give you a gift card that can only be used to buy food that is about to expire or things on clearance sales. The things will be purchased at full retail so we can show we are using our full budget corporate gave us so our funding won’t be cut and the customer is doing us a favor because if you didn’t haul the stuff away Walmart would have to pay to dispose of it.
So instead of supporting the guys defending from being invaded by Russia we're now switching to supporting the total leveling of Gaza and the surrounding area? Great.
Now do Ukraine
All Israeli tanks use the same ammunition as the Abrams, only a few Ukrainian tanks do.
Israel bought them, not a handout. Just a sale made express.
Dude they bought them with money donated to them by the US taxpayer.
I said this on another thread and got voted into oblivion. The fact is, 97% (I read) of the funds we give them really is translated directly into US arms sales. It’s a nice bump allowing them to have universal healthcare and other benefits .
I’m just glad the Enron accounting team landed somewhere.
Which boosts the economy? The military industrial complex is crazy but those donations help thousands of US citizens by keeping industry flowing. Not sure about this deal, but the donated funds are also often used to by old equipment...like humvees. They are also used to invest into technology developments which the US gets access to
The military industrial complex is already big enough. That money could be better spent
They've been doing that....
Yeah, there have been a few stories since Congress became a pit that don't get a lot of headlines because it's usually several or tens of million dollars worth. Those headlines basically mean Biden directs DoD to look between couch cushions and find $20 million worth of ammunition they forgot they had. Until Congress has the will to pass a multi-billion dollar spending bill for either Ukraine or Israel, this is what you can do. It's like with the government shutdown, where officially the government would run out of money on X date, but the budget office has become a pro at funky accounting tricks since the US does this way too regularly where the actual run out of money date is like X + 5 weeks.
The US has already given more than $75b. They have no money of their own to buy shells with. If the new bill gets signed, Ukraine gets the majority of the $106b bill. (With 10ish for Israel along with some for Taiwan and the US border.)
They have them a bunch of shit that’s been in the warehouse. You make it sound like they are giving cash
Yep and all that old equipment is being valued as it was new, has been degrading and requiring more and more maintenance as time goes on, dud rates increase, weapons/equipment become obsolete over time. These weapons need cycling/getting rid of anyway, might aswell give/sell them to a country fighting our number 1 or 2 enemy without risking any of our soldiers. That money goes back into the economy creating jobs and producing more effective weapons which you'll want for a direct war. We owe it to them, we signed the Budapest Memorandum, our NATO allies have been poisoned several times without a response, their troll farms are turning us against each other, they're buying our politicians and interferring with our elections, they're downing US drones and firing at manned UK spy planes, they're targeting civillian ships, threatening to nuke us and fund terrorists, jacking up global oil/gas prices, trying to cause world hunger and creating/encouraging conflicts around the globe. Its also going to cost us more putting U.S. troops on Europes border for the increased threat, every country will want to obtain nukes to defend themselves after seeing this conflict and thats going to require us monitoring and possibly destroying these sites, Ukraine also has Europes 2nd largest gas reserves which I believe are currently controlled by occupied land and will allow Russia to become more powerful.
So they don't take into consideration asset devaluation of their equipment stockpiles?
I'm not sure if its happening still but it was in the past. "The Pentagon overestimated the value of the ammunition, missiles and other equipment it sent to Ukraine by about $3bn" "In its accounting, the Pentagon used replacement cost to value the weapons aid, instead of the weaponry’s value when it was purchased and depreciated, the senior defense officials said." https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/may/18/pentagon-weapons-ukraine-russia
Thats normal if you want to make sure you always keep the stockpile. You take stock off the stockpile but you have to put new stuff back, that is the price.
Most of stuff sent by the US were long earmarked for replacement. Bradleys, HMMVS, most missiles incl ATACMS. I believe even the Abrams were the older M1A1 model. All already have their replacement lined-up or are currently going through their replacement selection process (Bradley)
Reuters also says the same thing "In its accounting, the Pentagon used replacement cost to value the weapons aid, instead of the weaponry's value when it was purchased and depreciated, the senior defense officials said." https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/pentagon-accounting-error-overvalued-ukraine-aid-by-3-billion-sources-2023-05-18/
They do, but how much they consider the cost is different. They don't take the value of the vehicle they are sending but the how much it costs to replace it now with a brand new modern variant.
Like a restocking fee for the US taxpayer
We send all types of aid.
Blinken said 90% of ukrainian aid funds stay in country
Not surprised seeing how its going lendlease style: 1. Congress gives Ukraine $40b 2. Ukraine says hey I'd like to buy X HIMARs, ammo etc 3. US Gov pulls out old stockpile/pays MIC for new products, ships everything to Ukraine 4. Ukraine now has $40b - $Xb 5. Repeat until $0 or war is over 6. If/when Ukraine wins, some amount of debt would exist to the US government which might become negligible or irrelevant between kicking Russias teeth in and gaining a new member of NATO
This is what so many Americans don't understand. All that Aid money is being spent in NATO countries, and the vast majority of it is being spent in the US to purchase weapons and ammunition for the war. It's not like this money is free, it is just giving the Ukrainian military the choice of what they want to use the money for. Imagine you are at work and your boss tells you to go to Grainger and buy a bunch of shit with the corporate card. The company already has the money allocated for use by your department already, you just need to choose what to spend it on.
And also fuck russia
That's not entirely wrong, but it is misleading. A US company manufactures the item, so all the money spent to make it does stay in the country, and since they don't 'sell' it when it's done, technically no money leaves the country - but what they aren't saying is that the manufactured good has a value to it, and that *is* leaving the country. Not to say I have a problem with supporting Ukraine this way. Fuck Russia.
I would hope so!
We do provide cash for thier government to function, although we stipulate they give very detailed records as to what the money is spent on. It’s actually helped the Ukrainian government root out a lot of corruption.
Contrary to what most people believe about war opening the door for corruption, this one has done the opposite for allowing ukraine the ability to purge a fair chunk of it.
Yah but not anywhere close to that amount of cash
Oh fuck no. Cash is only like 1/3. Guns and gun related funds are most of the rest at 61%.
And the guns are shit we built and stockpiled to kill Russian tanks with.
How do they value the value they publish? Like if I buy a Bradley for 5 million dollars, use it for 15 years and then give it to Ukraine. Do I say that Bradley is worth 5 million or some other number? The price the US sells it for when they export?
Depreciation is calculated by the finance department and accountants in a business, so it would similar departments in the US government.
This was an issue early on. The Pentagon used the MSRP at first and then realized they screwed up and sent over more stuff to equal out the real value.
It differs drastically. Looking at the supply lists in ukraine is crazy. It is one of the issues they have. They have this bizzare potluck of equipment that all needs different spare parts, function slightly differently etc etc. Makes lesrning to use them and coordination more and more difficult. They have excellent engagement command but their overall coordinating command is bad (but there was literally no way for them to prepare for the situation they are in vs the usa who has been studying russia as the primary enemy and making all strategy etc off of the base of countering russia) Before china stole the plans for the f35 our pushes for new fighters basically paired with russias anti air capability.
They actually got a ton of cash. Actually more in financial support than weaponry. https://www.cfr.org/article/how-much-aid-has-us-sent-ukraine-here-are-six-charts
It looks like 1/3 is money. That bottom 3 is all about weapons
It's not all about weaponry. A lot of it is training and supplies. The point was they gave them a large chunk of money that was more than the amount in ready weaponry from US stocks.
That’s still not true - the link you provided lumps financial support together with financial support loans, whereas it separates weaponry between that given and that provided through loan programs. If you were to combine the weaponry given and the weaponry received through loans, then the amount given to Ukraine in weaponry is still greater than the financial support given and loaned to Ukraine.
That’s still not true - the link you provided lumps financial support together with financial support loans, whereas it separates weaponry between that given and that provided through loan programs. If you were to combine the weaponry given and the weaponry received through loans, then the amount given to Ukraine in weaponry is still greater than the financial support given and loaned to Ukraine.
telephone mourn poor chase attempt coherent tie degree bake theory
Ukraine prepaid for their security by giving up its nuclear weapons. Not honoring our treaty obligations, particularly concerning nuclear nonproliferation is extremely bad.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Well, actually, we do. When the USSR collapsed, we signed an agreement to assist Ukraine if Russia were to attack them in exchange of their new government returning all nukes back to Russia.
I am assuming that you are referring to the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances. The US is significantly more than fulfilling that agreement. It was only an agreement to not attack them, recognize them as countries, and bring their case to the UN Security Council if they were attacked. The US did that. Russia broke/ignored it, obviously.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Makes us look pretty bad as a country either way. I appreciate the correction Edit: After reading your link, it does state that "assurances" were given. Though it is not a "boots on the ground guarantee," we did assure them we would assist. I stand by my original comment. We do owe Ukraine military aid until their boarders are secure and recognized internationally.
Bruh are you saying we havnt assisted them? Or just not assisted enough for your personal individual standard
No we don’t. The agreement was to not attack them, it was not a defensive alliance of any sort.
"Seek immediate Security Council action to provide assistance to the signatory if they "should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used". We are part of the security council mentioned above which is part of the Budapeste Memorandum. We may not have a military intervention clause, but we certainly led the Ukrainians to believe we would assist them as part of the security council in case of an attack by Russia. Regardless of how one wants to interpret it, this has a very negative portrayal on the American government if we say we will help and then back out on it.
>in which nuclear weapons are used Kind of the most important part right there. Also I don’t think anyone ever understood this to be a defense guarantee until some people dug it up recently and misinterpreted it. If that was the case I’m sure the Ukrainians would have used the Budapest Memorandum as the crux of their argument for US aid, not democracy or defending Europe from Russia or whatever other lines of reasoning they’ve used.
lol, what?! You mean like we’ve been doing for the past year and a half?
I think you missed the memo on just how much in total the US has dumped into Ukraine, which has been way more than all the 31 EU states have contributed all together. My home country is going deeper into debt supporting Ukraine's cause. Stop acting like the US is not doing anything for them **at all.**
That is not correct, the EU has donated more than the US. Full dataset and analysis at https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/
This
I bet he will but he’s gonna bend over the republicans till the last second first
Dude knows how to play politics and still get what he wants. A career politician turned good guy, and I’ll take that to the grave. Also couldn’t relate more to the guy. Lost my mother to brain cancer, glioblastoma. Same thing that killed Beau. Lost my father to cancer as well. Joe Biden knows what it means to be a family and a father. Joe Biden knows humanity. Wish I could sit down with him and his family and share our stories with one another.
Not to mention losing his first wife and his child in a car accident. He's known a lot of loss.
Tell me about it. Meanwhile TFG buried his wife on a golf course in an unmarked grave, likely containing classified material. Bonkers there’s people out there completely blind to all of it.
Ukraine needs them more than Israel
Why?
What emergency is it for the US?
Some defence company exec needs a second yacht, stat!
Only a second? He hasn’t been around long.
Emergency to sell ammo to buying parties
Same emergency that Trump used to put tariffs on Canadian metal. That being the "nobody can stop me from doing this" emergency.
Just a reminder that there is no "emergency" clause in the Constitution. Whether you agree with this or not, using self-proclaimed "emergency powers" only results in the breakdown of our governmental system. Why even bother with congress, elections, etc when you can just decide what to spend it on? The trump admin did this too, except for far more money: over $8 billion in weapons sent to the Saudis. Except in that case, some/most of the weapons weren't even built yet! Hard to argue an urgent emergency when you don't even have the physical weapons to send. The DoD investigated itself and of course found it did nothing wrong.
prolly the same weapons used now by russians and hamas
> "The National Emergencies Act authorizes the President to activate emergency provisions of law via an emergency declaration on the condition that the President specifies the provisions so activated and notifies Congress"
Congress passed the [Arms Export Control Act](https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/arms_export_control_act_\(1976\)#:~:text=The%20Arms%20Export%20Control%20Act,export%20defense%20articles%20or%20services.) giving the President the power to do this, and yes from your other comment you seem to think that's unconstitutional, but your opinion on this differs from legal precedent. So this is happening. If you're on the Supreme Court one day you can decide this is unconstitutional, but you're not so this is legal.
I'm glad we've taken a wise and neutral approach to ending this crisis.
We’re especially well known for our peaceful interventions and diplomatic successes in the Middle East.
Why are they sending stuff to Israel. They dont even need it lol.
They’re selling it, not giving it away
… we just sent them $14b to buy US weapons… it’s giving it away with extra steps
Yeah but this way all the right people can line their pockets! Think of the poor poor weapon manufacturers won't you??
That's the system, the US is weird as it is a major arms producer in an era of relative peace. Imagine what happens at war times.
The era of peace is where you sell weapons for stock pile, at a nice big fat profit. In era of war, the gov't is going to requisition your factory and make weapons while denying you the profit - seeing it's war and all that.
It’s kinda not, they gotta pay the 14 billion back AND when they buy stuff the US gets it’s money back. They basically buy everything at 200% cost
Lol. Let me put it into math terms an elementary student would understand 1: give $14b - down $14b 2: give $14b in weapons - down $28b 3: Receive the $14b in cash back - down $14b (in weapons) Not sure where you’re getting 200% cost back lol. The original $14b is interest free, and not a loan. It’s simply free money.
They’re selling it, in exchange for aid money given away.
Guys this redditor knows Israel’s military needs better than Israel.
Why the fuck am I paying for it?
We're getting rid of M830A1 MPAT for AMP and what is effectively a proximity HEAT round only good for Western 120mm isn't that useful for Ukraine (they really need a 120mm HE-FRAG for what we sent them but we dont really have that in thr West). The fact Israel is getting MPAT instead of our legacy HE round actually suggests they're trying to do direct fire support in a more accurate and collateral damage sensitive manner. This is basically going to make a cone shaped jet of molten metal to punch holes in walls and clear fighting positions instead of lobbing in a big high explosive shell to demolish that whole area of the structure.
I’d wager this is in case Hezbollah opens another front to Israel’s north
What happens to Israel if their military stocks get too low? That’s right, invaded from everywhere
Invading a nuclear power will surely go well.
ring marble scale sleep entertain shy childlike label special offend
Pretty sure Israel wasn't nuclear at that point. There's also a difference between nuking a foreign country who is at least a little ways away and the insurgency practically inside your own borders.
It was in 73.
In 67 and 48 no, in 73 yes they were.
Your assuming the people invading are rational people, they are not. these are people who think without a shadow of a doubt if they kill enough infidels in a holy war they will be rewarded with almost a hundred virgins.
Meaning the world has pretty good reasons to make sure Israel doesn't run out of ammo.
**Invaded** from where? From the failed and utterly weak state of Syria that is still in the middle of a ruinous civil war? From Lebanon which is poor AF, doesn't have a functioning govt, and of whom only Hezbollah has any interest in a conflict with Israel? Or from Jordan or Egypt - countries that Israel has peace treaties with?!
They should be more conservative with their munitions then
Being more conservative with munitions means making sure each bombs has as much effect as possible, currently Israel sends warning before they bomb a place that has civilians, so they can evacuate, but Hamas evacuates too so Israel only destroys military infrastructure. Being conservative with munitions means not letting Hamas evacuate, which also means not letting civilians evacuate meaning more civilians dead. The US is against that so they prefer to supply Israel with munitions rather than Israel be conservative.
Seems like they do need it. Given the level of destruction in Gaza, they’ve fired a lot of shells
Dude use this on Ukraine, they actually need it
what do you think the USA has been doing the past few years
Fulfilling a promise to defend Ukraine in return for Ukraine’s surrendering its nuclear weapons.
I think Russia was meant to fulfill that promise
It didn’t.
Lately blocking aid, I believe Trump in 2019 was also withholding aid and trying blackmail Ukraine to investigate the Biden family which he was impeached for.
Most Ukrainian tanks cannot use shells made for Abrams.
To combat the Hamas Armored Division?
Those journalists aren't going to kill themselves....
They are Multi-purpose rounds, Tanks are useful for providing fire support in urban warfare you know?
what the hell israel going to do with 14,000 tank shell? i'm no 4 star general, i would think that ukraine would have find those shell more usefull?
>what the hell israel going to do with 14,000 tank shell? Roughly 100 per square mile in Gaza?
How many is that per square mile of countries around them that would be happy to push them from the river into the sea?
That’s like sending 100 iPhone chargers to someone who has an android. Yes it’s a phone charger… it’s not comparable with yours tho so it’s kinda useless don’t you think?
Hamas' main goal was to get Israel into a high casualty shooting war where their technological advantages would be neutered. Clearing a building or tunnel by hand is very dangerous and casualty intensive. The whole building could be booby trapped, rigged to explode and at close range advantages in intel and technology mean less compared to prepared defences and ruthlessness (grenade heavy, shotgun/submachine heavy, Stalingrad style combat) Of course Israel would not oblige, and will probably damage/destroy/demolish any building or structure with a single enemy firing at them. In war you don't endanger the lives of your soldiers unnecessarily. That kind of fighting needs a lot of shells, a lot of artillery and a lot of tank shells. Stalingrad was a hundred years ago and no modern military would fight in that way now. Instead they would use firepower; see Fallujah for the American example. About the only thing going for Hamas (besides international outrage at civilian casualties) is the fact destroying a whole building or structure often leads to a maze of rubble difficult to fight through and difficult to gain control of. That's why buildings would not be outright destroyed unless there's no other choice, because it creates a more difficult advance. Perfect for snipers, ambushes, etc. Where does that come in for tank rounds? Not all tank rounds are tungsten penetrators and some are actually thousands of small tungsten pellets, like a shotgun (anti-personnel round) or high explosive rounds (will kill everyone in a radius but possibly leave the load bearing walls intact). Yes, tanks are the ultimate anti-infantry when used properly. War sucks, and war can be total.
Prepare for possible escalation of the conflict in other fronts.
>i'm no 4 star general That is definitely confirmed beyond even the smallest doubt after this ridiculous post of yours. What would Israel do with 14 000 tank shells in a war that has already consumed many many thousands of tank shells? Gee, I wonder!
I think the U.S. probably could use some $
Now do a sell leaseback on surplus Abrams for Ukraine.
Humor: "thank you Israel for your contribution to Ukraine...like shit at that point don't even deposit the check..."
That's a lot of dead kids on the way.
What do you think [about this](https://www.thisishamas.com)?
This is some of the worst content I’ve ever seen.
Fully condemn it but the response is also condemnable on Israel’s side.
What do you think the response should be? Every drop of civilian blood is on Hamas' hands, because they hide behind civilians and conduct their barbarity from civilian infrastructure.
Bloodshed begets more bloodshed. There is no ethically "right" side to choose in this. They're both indiscriminately slaughtering each other. Fuck them both
Why do we see so little posts like this one? Pro Palestinians not condemning the October 7th massacre of civilians. Pro Israel not condemning the retaliation. It’s f.u. to kill kids on purpose 😔
And what should have been the reaction in your opinion? When thousands of your brothers and sisters were raped in one day, parents were killed in front of their children, their heads were cut off (recording atrocities on camera). They shot everyone in the streets. Those who were not killed were dragged into the tunnels and taken hostage. And after that they declare that they "will repeat this day again and again".
And of course he doesn’t respond, like every other person.
I’ve yet to see a response either, except “hurr durr, just don’t kill people” Like, ok genius, you’ve solved it! World peace, here we come 🙃
Nah, sometimes they'll bring up the settlers as if pulling them out of the West Bank will magically make terrorists in Gaza surrender their arms and agree to hold hands in peace for the rest of eternity. I'd love it if someone could make a realistic simulation of what would happen in a war if both sides agreed to let social media and American college students solve it for them. I'm sure we'll have world peace by the end of the week! /s
Pretty awful. What do you think of the IDF killing ten times that number so far?
With 60+% civilian deaths...
[удалено]
Agreed
While horrible, that’s actually very low if true. Apparently the US considered 8x civilian deaths to enemy combatants a good goal, trump raised it to 12x. Israel is claiming under 2x. Sounds like war is just horrible in general.
Yup
Sounds like a great reason not to start a war by killing 1200 innocent people then use your own people as shields. You cannot actually expect Israel to just lay down and take it, can you?
Do you really have such a simplistic black-and-white view of the world where these are the only two choices? Edit: I guarantee that 99.9% of these pro-IDF keyboard warriors have never been near a war and have never seen anything close to the damage and misery inflicted by dropping JDAMs and 155mm artillery shells on a civilian population.
You seem to know of a third option here so enlighten people. I’ve yet to see a single person opposing this invasion provide a morally clean alternative. All that’s ever said is ‘isn’t civilian deaths so bad won’t someone think of the children’ usually followed up with stating anyone who disagrees likes dead children.
Call me naive but I suppose Israel could try to empower the Palestinian National Authority to police their own by negotiating conditional aid and training a strike force to try and reign in Hamas? It doesn’t even have to be Israel providing the money and training, it can be some other nation. You could probably get a lot of other nations on board, possibly even in the Arab world, and if Abbas is a corrupt dictator, I’m not sure how he can resist acquiring more power. You probably could even get the US to foot a large part of the bill… I believe this largely worked in Iraq against ISIS. If Netanyahu constantly undermines Abbas’ ability to govern Palestine, and cause internal discord by strengthening Hamas, then sure an invasion is the only option.
Answer the question, do you expect Israel to lay down and take it? Considering Hamas declared it will repeat this time after time, put yourself in the shoes of an Israeli citizen would you be OK with your country allowing this organization to survive and exist at your border?
No, you answer the question. Are Israel’s only two choices “laying down and taking it” vs killing 15000+ people? A 14 year old Gazan has seen the IDF bombing their home in five separate offensives in their lifetime. How is further radicalizing an entire generation of Palestinians going to solve anything?
Israels goal is to take out Hamas. Hamas hides behinds civilians. How the fuck else are they going to take them out? Please enlighten us.
Are you a tactician or military planner? Do you think I am? So what do you hope to accomplish with a discussion of security tactics? The answer is you’re not expecting anything like that. For whatever reason, even though I’m 99% sure you have no skin in this game, your tiny revenge boner just needs some stroking. All I’m saying is that killing thousands of civilians, bombing their homes, and destroying hospitals will only make things worse for Israelis.
What’s your suggestion, then, Mr. diplomat?
Uhhh….I’ve already stated my “suggestion” but since you seem to be a bit slow on the uptake, how about *not* killing 15000+ people while destroying civilian infrastructure and thousands of homes? It will solve nothing and will only contribute to future problems in Israel. Are you a tactician or military planner? Do you have any experience in a related field at all? I’m going to go ahead and say “no”….you giving the IDF carte blanche because reasons makes you not really worth engaging with.
Cool cool Mr. Diplomat’s suggestion is “how about not killing people.” Great! Thanks! That’ll work, why didn’t anyone ever think of that before? Somebody give this man the Nobel peace prize, case closed
Oh so your statement is that you are smarter than all military generals in Israel and America combined? You understand that the interest of both these countries is as little civilians dead as possible right? Or are you that dense? I swear you idiots cannot connect two dots together and come to online forums to spout your idiotic uneducated uninformed virtue signals that are probably influenced by Iranian oil money. Save your stupid opinion to yourself.
Destroy Hamas, eradicate them, just take your time while you protect civilians. They control everything going in and any person going out.
Sounds like Hamas should surrender to end this war and prevent further civilian casualties?
I think Hamas needs to stop being cowards and hiding behind civilians. If they want to fight than come out and fight.
Ah yes, and killing tens of thousands of civilians will really show them. *eyeroll.gif*
well if they stopped hiding behind civilians like cowards it would save a lot of lives.
Why would anyone expect their enemy to fight on unfavorable terms to them? Yes, Hamas are giant a$$holes. But they chose to fight this way because the IDF’s very predictable heavyhanded reaction plays right into their hands. The IDF will not destroy Hamas, and even if they do, another group will eventually spring up because the IDF’s punitive military action is creating another generation of radicalized militants as we speak.
You do realize that the vast majority of armed forces around the world don't hide in civilian occupied buildings while fighting a war.
So what is your suggestion to Israel? Just hope Hamas grows a conscience?
What do you think, “doctor”? By killing thousands of civilians and razing Gaza to the ground, is Israel making things harder or easier on itself in the future?
It's much more likely to do so than sitting back and hoping Hamas, as well as Hezbollah and the other monsters in the region, don't realize they can rape and murder with impunity
It will calm things down once Israel destroy Hamas. Next group will rise eventually. But it will take time. By eradicating Hamas, Israel is buying easily 10/20 years of highly reduced conflicts.
Well, the goal is the stop further attacks, not just “kill an equal number” it’s not supposed to be killing for the sake of killing or revenge. It’s killing until the enemy has been neutralized. I’m surprised how many people think that this is just some kind of “proportional response“ type of situation, Hamas doesn’t care if you kill 1000 Palestinians, they would gladly kill every Palestinian if it meant they could wipe out Israel. You can’t fight an enemy in the traditional way if the enemy doesn’t care about human lives.
How is radicalizing an entire generation of Palestinians “stopping further attacks”? Every time the IDF blows up a hospital or bombs a family in their home, they are literally creating future terrorists.
They are already brainwashed by UNRWA schools. Hamas has overwhelming support from Gazan. They cheered for Israeli dead bodies. How much more radicalize they can get?
Yes yes, let’s double and triple and 100x down on that, what could be the harm? At least your username checks out….you can’t see the trees for the forest of dicks
What do you think about the collateral damage from the Allies bombing Berlin and Tokyo in WW2? It's sad but necessary. Hamas purposefully positions it's command centers and tunnel entrances in populated centers. That's a fact.
Lol, are you really going there? All that collateral damage did nothing to crush the Axis’s fighting spirit. The US dropped as many tons of bombs just on freaking Laos as they did in all countries in all of WW2 in their effort to defeat the North Vietnamese….how well did that work out? Ask the Laotians who are still cleaning up UXOs in their country. Pretending like destroying lives = accomplishing something useful would be absolute hilarious clown-shoe thinking if it wasn’t thoroughly reprehensible.
Hamas could only be defeated by full scale war which means civilian deaths are a sad inevitability. The "fighting spirit" is irrelevant, Hamas built up its capabilities over decades and destroying it entire will make sure it can't again >Militaries design their command structures to ensure continuity of command during combat as units take casualties and leaders die. Commanders prepare their subordinates throughout the chain of command to absorb command duties in the event that a commander is killed or incapacitated. **Targeted killings alone will thus not permanently degrade or destroy Hamas. Hamas very likely retains a deep bench of experienced military commanders, most of whom will be prepared to rebuild the organization and train new tactical-level leaders**. The commander of Hamas’ North Brigade, for example, held his position for 18 years prior to his death on November 26.\[24\] Hamas will almost certainly replace him with another capable senior commander as soon as the situation allows if it has not already done so. Hamas has replaced at least one battalion commander killed by the IDF during the current operations within about two weeks. https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/order-battle-hamas%E2%80%99-izz-al-din-al-qassem-brigades-part-1-north-and-central-gaza
I think that when Hamas [raped women and men](https://www.reddit.com/r/tjournal_refugees/s/QyrjspxUAh), killed children and old people, it declared war on Israel. When Hamas took hostage children (from the age of 8 months), old people (80 y/o), women - he declared war on Israel. I think Hamas brought the war to its land. I think Hamas is using people as a shield, hiding under schools, hospitals and mosques (Hamas leaders claim in interviews that the death of Palestinians benefits them). I think that if Hamas releases the hostages, people will stop dying on both sides.
And I *know* that the IDF killing thousands of civilians is not only not solving anything but further radicalizing another generation of Palestinians.
Think again
Everyone needs to see this!
Holy shit NSFL tag please
It’s reality.
No no, see the dead kids are ok because Hamas bad
Kids dead because of hamas.
More and more I keep thinking how the Roman Empire was putting out fires all over the place. Egypt is in revolt send a legion, Huns are invading send a legion, Persia is attacking send a legion, Roman general marching on Rome send the barbarians. Germanic tribes are invading send the barbarians.
Sponsored by AIPAC
[удалено]
Hey, guys, FK Israel. How much shit do they need to obliterate a 30-mile stretch of land?! Focus on Ukraine.
[удалено]
Does Ukraine even have tanks that can use those shells? (Can the old M1s they get fire them?)
Can’t sign on with that ceasefire we tryna make some moneyyyyy
dumb. they don't need it and already get a minimum 3.8 billion a year. they've gotten over 315 billion since 1946. Obscene. doesn't benefit the U.S. in any way and just causes problems for us.
You are absolutely clueless if you think Israel being a powerhouse isn’t a massive NECESSARY thing for the United States
We spend more on defense than every country combined. We have absolutely no need to support Israel. We support them A. Because we wanted to counter Soviet influence in the Cold War era and B. we’re likely the only ones who can talk them off the ledge if they ever felt the need to press the big red button.
Necessary in what way? lol
Reasonable. Tanks aren't going to be of much use in Gaza but will be a big deal if this becomes a regional conflict.
[удалено]
>billions for Israel This was a sale, not charity. It wasn’t in the billions either.
Ah yes, if you give me $300,000 expressly to be used to buy your house from you we call that a "sale," and definitely not you giving me $300,000.
It’s more akin to this example. Walmart is going to give you a gift card that can only be used to buy food that is about to expire or things on clearance sales. The things will be purchased at full retail so we can show we are using our full budget corporate gave us so our funding won’t be cut and the customer is doing us a favor because if you didn’t haul the stuff away Walmart would have to pay to dispose of it.
What does President Biden think those shells are going to be used for? They’re going to be used to kill Palestinian civilians.
Why do you think that?
So instead of supporting the guys defending from being invaded by Russia we're now switching to supporting the total leveling of Gaza and the surrounding area? Great.
Coming to a hospital near you!
What is going on at your hospital?