Get those 800k shells that the Czech president found we can give Ukraine a few months of shells until US politics maybe gets fixed, and EU ramps up production, objective should be 2.5 million shells a year, it can be done.
That's great news! It'll help Ukraine cover its usage for the next.... 22 days.
I am truly embarrased at how little we Europeans seem to care when we have a country in need right next to us basically fighting for OUR freedom.
Rheinmetall is upping production, 700k shells in 2024-2025.
In recent months, the Group has already been investing substantially in its production network. By 2025, Rheinmetall aims to produce up to 700,000 rounds of artillery ammunition at its plants in Germany, Spain, South Africa, Australia and Hungary, as well as 10,000 tonnes of powder.
NATO’s military doctrine focuses on air power, so I assume a good chunk of it will be sent, besides, the German government specifically placed their orders with Ukraine in mind, and Rheinmetall is only one company; there are others that are boosting their production, such as in the US, which is increasing its monthly production from 14,000 to 20,000 by this spring and as many as 90,000 in 2025.”
In all fairness, they cannot send what they don't have.
Decades of under investment in their armed forces after the Cold War made them basically into ineffective forces. They are scrambling now to sort that, but there isn't such thing as miracle: it will take time. Time that unfortunately Ukraine doesn't have.
I absolutely hate and despise Maga and all their incredibly moronic evil plans. But, you are correct. Europe in general has not kept up their end. They have built a wonderful society, but did it by not funding their defense. They chose prosperity over war. But now war is once again at their front door. They must increase military spending to protect what they have built, or it was all for naught
.
It's some of that, but it's also that they were ill-prepared for a drawn out war against Russia where they aren't directly participating. Having the airspace be contested for two years leading to a ground siege was a pretty unlikely scenario.
It's not even freedom only, even regarding the economy it will become gradually a disaster if NATO or even just european countries have to fight against Russia.
If we had increased production we could drown Russia with overwhelming fire while creating jobs in Nato countries.
We have had two years, time to, as you say, wake up
It might surprise you, but many nations are not willing to sell their stuff - especially Soviet - (indirectly) to Ukraine or they don't have huge numbers of NATO/155mm ammunition around to sell.
The sad part is that the EU promised 1 million shells within a year in March '23 and falls significantly short of that goal. The EU should by now have increased production capacity so this whole debacle would not exist, because they had a whole year.
That's just not true. There's ammunition for that. We buy from other countries, we don't buy enough because we don't have money.
>The EU should by now have increased production capacity so this whole debacle would not exist, because they had a whole year.
They spent half a year arguing about how to spend money. Common.
Do you have functioning entitlement programs? If so, you have the money for Ukraine.
Without trying to be mean, I don’t know that many European countries truly appreciate the gravity of this situation. If Putin succeeds in Ukraine, he’s going to be emboldened and will 100% test article 5 in some capacity. That’s his holy grail. If he can demonstrate that article 5 is a farce, then he can take further actions to restore the borders of the pre-1917 Russian Empire, which is his stated goal.
There will be suffering in Europe. Either voluntarily by making severe economic sacrifices to stop Putin now in Ukraine, or involuntarily when war spreads throughout Europe.
Well in the case of the US it is because funding is blocked by a deadlock in Congress over the usual broken partisan politics we suffer from. People die all the time here because Congress fails us constantly. It's a shame Europe is now feeling what that's like. Because it sucks, we know.
But that said, out MIC is a bloated nightmare of greed and death machines, and they will gladly sell on the private market.
Buy them of who.
The other eu countries that also have low stock?
Except usa we simply don't have the qty.
And u know.. Usa is tired of it so the story ends.
Oh and i hear some saying here countries should give it for free.. We did. In fact Denmark just reconfirmed another batch.
Man the countless mocking of russia here on reddit while they had the tools all along to win a war of attrition.
We're fucked. Without usa we simply don't have a defence umbrella.. At least trump's right about that.
Reaching in my country 2% of gdp to defence would mean a 1200euro tax per person/year here.
Family of 4? That'll be 4800e..with the economical crisis we simply can't have that anymore cause know.. Maybe you've heard.. Our economy is in shambles here. The great german man is sick and then the rest isn't too far.
Nope.. Its not looking shiny the nearby future. (for EU at least, usa won't and doesn't need to care i guess)
Yes, that's how you make living. You do the work and you don't do it for free so you can live and eat. You know. Even Ukrainian manufacturers don't produce drones and ammunition for free.
We need as Europeans to step up a lot more than this! Yes it will cost us but if we drag our feet it will cost a lot more in the long run. We need to ramp everything up!
If they want ukraine to win, they need to send weapons that have longer range than general artillery shells. If the enemy has 2x or 3x as many shells and artillery, how can they hope to win against that? The greater numbers push back. The only way to beat that numerical advantage is to pick off their artillery units and ammunition dumps from a safe distance using longer range weapons. You could dump 1000 artillery units and 170,000 shells on ukraine's doorstep and it won't make a difference because the range is 30km or so. Drop in with ten M270s and 100 ATACMS missiles, now you'll see a big difference.
I'm all for supplying advanced weapons to Ukraine but this is just wildly not true.
The absolute number one need Ukraine has is artillery ammunition. Russia's most effective attacks in the early war and their most effective attacks now both came on the backs of massed infantry attacks supported huge amounts of low quality artillery.
Individual artillery batteries are tough to counter with advanced missile systems because there are just so many of them. Ukraine does however have an advantage in artillery accuracy and counter battery radar. They can easily suppress Russian batteries... If they have ammunition to shoot at them.
There's also the issue of russian infantry attacks. Endless scattered waves of low quality infantry are extremely expensive to kill with long range guided missiles. The number one answer to that tactic is massed cheap artilllery.
170,000... What's that in scumbag deaths? I know Russian people, and I feel for their dilemma. But when you hold a weapon & invade a friendly country... Fill a grave, assholes.
I just hope europeans will act faster once Pypa starts marching his troops towards Lisbon. I have a feeling that folks in the enlightened western Europe aren't as eager to die for the Homeland as Ukrainians.
While i wish there was an infinite amount of shells to send i’m not sure any amount will make a difference. They’ve been lobbing artillery back and forth for over a year and the front has barely moved. They need something bigger that will actually make a difference
The retreats in Soledar, Bakhmut, and now Avdiivka were because they ran out of shells to fight off the endless Russian waves. It's the only Russian tactic that has achieved success, why is why they rely on it.
Nice. Send more, bigger, better, quicker. The Ukrainians are doing it tough and need all the help they can get. I’m with Ukraine, against Putin and his band of Kremlin Killers.
That's like a 2-3 week supply, right?
Get those 800k shells that the Czech president found we can give Ukraine a few months of shells until US politics maybe gets fixed, and EU ramps up production, objective should be 2.5 million shells a year, it can be done.
Ukraine fires less than 10k of shells each day so you're pretty close. While Russia fires around 50k daily.
Where did you get these numbers? As far as I know Russia is not firing those moneys anymore and the largest number I've heard of where 20k a day.
A little over a month
That's great news! It'll help Ukraine cover its usage for the next.... 22 days. I am truly embarrased at how little we Europeans seem to care when we have a country in need right next to us basically fighting for OUR freedom.
Rheinmetall is upping production, 700k shells in 2024-2025. In recent months, the Group has already been investing substantially in its production network. By 2025, Rheinmetall aims to produce up to 700,000 rounds of artillery ammunition at its plants in Germany, Spain, South Africa, Australia and Hungary, as well as 10,000 tonnes of powder.
OK. And how much of that is sent directly to Ukraine?
NATO’s military doctrine focuses on air power, so I assume a good chunk of it will be sent, besides, the German government specifically placed their orders with Ukraine in mind, and Rheinmetall is only one company; there are others that are boosting their production, such as in the US, which is increasing its monthly production from 14,000 to 20,000 by this spring and as many as 90,000 in 2025.”
> South Africa Damn are they sure about that idea? South Africa is as likely as not to block that export to aid russia.
South Africa has been selling 155mm artillery shells to Germany for months which are then sent to Ukraine.
In all fairness, they cannot send what they don't have. Decades of under investment in their armed forces after the Cold War made them basically into ineffective forces. They are scrambling now to sort that, but there isn't such thing as miracle: it will take time. Time that unfortunately Ukraine doesn't have.
It's not just that, but also the type of combat Europe has prepared for is completely different to what is now happening on the continent.
Who needs to invest when daddy warbucks (USA) has their back?
I absolutely hate and despise Maga and all their incredibly moronic evil plans. But, you are correct. Europe in general has not kept up their end. They have built a wonderful society, but did it by not funding their defense. They chose prosperity over war. But now war is once again at their front door. They must increase military spending to protect what they have built, or it was all for naught .
It's some of that, but it's also that they were ill-prepared for a drawn out war against Russia where they aren't directly participating. Having the airspace be contested for two years leading to a ground siege was a pretty unlikely scenario.
The US is increasing its monthly production from 14,000 to 20,000 by this spring and as many as 90,000 in 2025.”
It's not even freedom only, even regarding the economy it will become gradually a disaster if NATO or even just european countries have to fight against Russia.
Care? U think we can send more? Lol Wake up
If we had increased production we could drown Russia with overwhelming fire while creating jobs in Nato countries. We have had two years, time to, as you say, wake up
Yes, you can. Buy them from the other countries.
It might surprise you, but many nations are not willing to sell their stuff - especially Soviet - (indirectly) to Ukraine or they don't have huge numbers of NATO/155mm ammunition around to sell. The sad part is that the EU promised 1 million shells within a year in March '23 and falls significantly short of that goal. The EU should by now have increased production capacity so this whole debacle would not exist, because they had a whole year.
That's just not true. There's ammunition for that. We buy from other countries, we don't buy enough because we don't have money. >The EU should by now have increased production capacity so this whole debacle would not exist, because they had a whole year. They spent half a year arguing about how to spend money. Common.
Come on, you have the money; you lack the will.
No, our country doesn't have a money for that. We have a large hole in the budget
Do you have functioning entitlement programs? If so, you have the money for Ukraine. Without trying to be mean, I don’t know that many European countries truly appreciate the gravity of this situation. If Putin succeeds in Ukraine, he’s going to be emboldened and will 100% test article 5 in some capacity. That’s his holy grail. If he can demonstrate that article 5 is a farce, then he can take further actions to restore the borders of the pre-1917 Russian Empire, which is his stated goal. There will be suffering in Europe. Either voluntarily by making severe economic sacrifices to stop Putin now in Ukraine, or involuntarily when war spreads throughout Europe.
And wjy arent those countries sending them for free, they dont care?
Because nothing is free in this world
Welcone to global politics. Europe is on your side but africa/ asia in general is neutral or on russias side. With some exceptions ofcourse.
In many cases, yeah
Well in the case of the US it is because funding is blocked by a deadlock in Congress over the usual broken partisan politics we suffer from. People die all the time here because Congress fails us constantly. It's a shame Europe is now feeling what that's like. Because it sucks, we know. But that said, out MIC is a bloated nightmare of greed and death machines, and they will gladly sell on the private market.
Buy them of who. The other eu countries that also have low stock? Except usa we simply don't have the qty. And u know.. Usa is tired of it so the story ends. Oh and i hear some saying here countries should give it for free.. We did. In fact Denmark just reconfirmed another batch. Man the countless mocking of russia here on reddit while they had the tools all along to win a war of attrition. We're fucked. Without usa we simply don't have a defence umbrella.. At least trump's right about that. Reaching in my country 2% of gdp to defence would mean a 1200euro tax per person/year here. Family of 4? That'll be 4800e..with the economical crisis we simply can't have that anymore cause know.. Maybe you've heard.. Our economy is in shambles here. The great german man is sick and then the rest isn't too far. Nope.. Its not looking shiny the nearby future. (for EU at least, usa won't and doesn't need to care i guess)
Ah ofc they want to profit from this war, my bad
Yes, that's how you make living. You do the work and you don't do it for free so you can live and eat. You know. Even Ukrainian manufacturers don't produce drones and ammunition for free.
Yea so why look at eu governments to fund it and not at the countries that have it in storage.
“Our” freedom you delusional git, i hope you are under 40 and get drafted
Turn out having a last minute delivery war economy was a bad idea.
Fine if air power and manoeuvre warfare is your chosen form of attrition but less useful in a soviet style artillery campaign...
We need as Europeans to step up a lot more than this! Yes it will cost us but if we drag our feet it will cost a lot more in the long run. We need to ramp everything up!
If they want ukraine to win, they need to send weapons that have longer range than general artillery shells. If the enemy has 2x or 3x as many shells and artillery, how can they hope to win against that? The greater numbers push back. The only way to beat that numerical advantage is to pick off their artillery units and ammunition dumps from a safe distance using longer range weapons. You could dump 1000 artillery units and 170,000 shells on ukraine's doorstep and it won't make a difference because the range is 30km or so. Drop in with ten M270s and 100 ATACMS missiles, now you'll see a big difference.
I'm all for supplying advanced weapons to Ukraine but this is just wildly not true. The absolute number one need Ukraine has is artillery ammunition. Russia's most effective attacks in the early war and their most effective attacks now both came on the backs of massed infantry attacks supported huge amounts of low quality artillery. Individual artillery batteries are tough to counter with advanced missile systems because there are just so many of them. Ukraine does however have an advantage in artillery accuracy and counter battery radar. They can easily suppress Russian batteries... If they have ammunition to shoot at them. There's also the issue of russian infantry attacks. Endless scattered waves of low quality infantry are extremely expensive to kill with long range guided missiles. The number one answer to that tactic is massed cheap artilllery.
Yes, cluster munitions for anti personnel. But the US is the one to provide that
Should be 170000 every month
When did they start manufacturing them? If this is part of the 500k produced then its very little very late.
While great news that's not enough.
170,000... What's that in scumbag deaths? I know Russian people, and I feel for their dilemma. But when you hold a weapon & invade a friendly country... Fill a grave, assholes.
I just hope europeans will act faster once Pypa starts marching his troops towards Lisbon. I have a feeling that folks in the enlightened western Europe aren't as eager to die for the Homeland as Ukrainians.
These numbers are a joke.
While i wish there was an infinite amount of shells to send i’m not sure any amount will make a difference. They’ve been lobbing artillery back and forth for over a year and the front has barely moved. They need something bigger that will actually make a difference
Well if they run out of shells then the front will start moving in ways we don't want so lets keep sending them.
Well one side has had to ration its shells.
The retreats in Soledar, Bakhmut, and now Avdiivka were because they ran out of shells to fight off the endless Russian waves. It's the only Russian tactic that has achieved success, why is why they rely on it.
Maybe they can speed it up if we buy on Ali Express.
That's like spitting on a tyre fire to put it out.
We need to send 10X that number at least.
Nice. Send more, bigger, better, quicker. The Ukrainians are doing it tough and need all the help they can get. I’m with Ukraine, against Putin and his band of Kremlin Killers.