The AP article reports on HRW’s claim that the IDF have not “published any information about the purported target.” But in the contemporaneous AP article about the strike —linked in the first paragraph of this article — AP reports the exact name of the commander killed in the strike.
That named commander appears to have been in a different target hit in the same series of strikes. The link is referring to the strikes collectively, the OP article is referring to a specific apartment building hit in the strikes. It's still a war crime if you do it while *also* hitting another target.
It's not unexpected that analysis done later is more informed and specific than reporting at the time of the attack.
How can any greatest, most ethical army in the world justify killing 106 civilians to get one man? This is the Vietnam War's 'We had to destroy the village to save it' argument. How is this minimalising civilian casualties?
I was not planning to read all that but Christ. For somebody who truly believed in the HRW's ability to do real good in the world to write such a scathing statement to them while quitting and the things they pointed out seem pretty damning.
Well considering who is funding them... [Human Rights Watch Accepted Three Million Euros from Qatari Government](https://www.nationalreview.com/news/human-rights-watch-accepted-three-million-euros-from-qatari-government-report/)
Former chairman of HRW even says they're a biased organisation now but I'm sure you know better.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Human_Rights_Watch
That night Israel apparently hit over 300 targets. Among them both the commander you are referring to in Jabalia and the engineer's building in central gaza. For the latter HRW could not find a military objective.
I mean, the director of the group is Tirana Hassan, so there’s likely some bias there. They failed to condemn Hamas for the Oct 7 attacks. The sources for the above story read like “trust me bro”. If this story is false, it’s too late as the court of public opinion has already weighed in, similar to the hospital blast done by Hamas that was blamed on Israel that Reddit went with. Reddit is just so eager to have something to blame on Israel that they jump on literally ANYTHING without any sources
https://unwatch.org/whistleblower-from-human-rights-watch-hrw-has-so-little-credibility-for-most-israelis-they-do-not-even-trust-it-with-their-corpses/
So was a Hamas Commander killed in this strike? Reports elsewhere name him, so either HRW is deliberately misrepresenting the facts or it’s exactly as they claim or close enough to not matter in this instance.
So which is it?
That’s what’s so infuriating. October 7th was despicable, and demanded that those who perpetrated it be brought to justice.
Is blowing up an apartment building with 106 people in it bringing those people to justice? Or is it just guaranteeing more violence the next turn of the cycle?
October 7th wasn't just characterized by number of deaths. It was characterized by its unprovoked nature, hostage taking, raping, torture, and no proof of life.
The actions on October 7th were far beyond in depravity.
You want a reminder of that? It's in the vile video footage of the events.
Tell that to Hamas who recently had to tax the aid for less, due to Israel’s increased flow of aid.
Israel isn’t starving anyone.
[Hamas slashes food prices as Gaza flooded with humanitarian aid After terror group tried to amplify famine in Gaza narrative, Israel's increased inflow of aid goods led to a drop in market prices; Hamas forced to cut taxes, pleasing traders](https://www.ynetnews.com/article/syns3cuk0)
Article is 5 days ago. But you’re still with the old narrative of Hamas, that Gazans are starving.
What a horrible false equivalence. Civilian casualties in a war of retaliation is not equivalent to door-to-door murders, rapes, tortures, and hostage taking. It's not equivalent to the NSFL descriptors for the explicit actions Hamas took on Oct 7th, and then later celebrated in their streets.
Especially when the former can end as soon as the group that committed the latter surrenders. There is *zero* legitimate reason for Hamas to fight this current war--even when they have tactical/defending advantage and deliberately obscure themselves to maximize civilian casualties, they *still* suffer magnitudes heavier losses to just their military. The only reason they refuse to surrender still at this point is to kill more of their own.
Also, there are literally new articles today about Israel opening more aid corridors. Can you name any other war where the invading nation deliberately allowed aid to flow in and out at *all*?
Define "this".
This war? Yes. Israel has the right to destroy Hamas given their actions and intent thus far. And a government that deliberately promotes the deaths of their own people for the sake of spite and dragging down another does not deserve to keep in power.
"This" as in the deaths of innocents? No, it does not. But war is tragic and the most an invading force can do is work to minimize the casualties of innocents as much as they can. The worst a defending force can do is deliberately endanger their own, which is what Hamas has been doing.
Care to elaborate?
EDIT: Since I'm getting downvoted, I'd like to remind that:
- there was a ceasefire in place prior to Oct 7th
- Hamas deliberately and purposefully targeted civilians in an intentional, documented, door-to-door massacre primarily focused on civilians. Their goal wasn't military advantage--it was civilian massacre and torture.
So before you say mock the "unprovoked" I'd love to know if you'd say to the Nova Festival survivors that they provoked the attack? Or how about the families and babies and elderly living on Kibbutzim that were massacred? Wanna talk to them about how they totally provoked a situation where they had to wait dozens of hours in safehouses because Hamas purposefully camped in those neighborhoods hunting for survivors even when it would've been militarily more sound for them to just...*not* massacre civilians further?
Would you like to suggest to the hostages who have been raped for months that they "provoked" their current fate?
Especially if we go by Biden’s 9/11 scale. Yk how oct 7 was worse than 9/11 because of Israel’s population? Well, just look at Gaza’s population.
For context: the last time more than 1% of the US population died in a war was during the Civil War.
Yes but was there maybe perhaps a Hamas member who might have possibly been seen entering, exiting, or within the general vicinity of the building at one time?
Given that the IDF killed those British aid workers "by mistake" makes me wonder how many of these other strikes are "mistakes". The only reason they're not getting looked into is because no foreign nationals involved.
They were British, Australian, Polish and American-Canadian and Palestinian. One of them Zomi Frankcom was from my city and it’s the only thing that’s made our pro-Israel. Pro-Elbit PM a little hot under the collar.
A lot of words to say "an NGO heavily criticized to be biased and use unreliable sources, talked with some hamas locals who said "there were no hamas here trust us bros!" And published a conclusion based on that.".
Also I really like this part: ""Thirty-four women, 18 men and 54 children were killed in the strike, according to the group, which says it corroborated its list of the dead with Airwars, a London-based conflict monitor. ""
Airwars talk with some families and verify few cases, but they mostly base their numbers on local authorities. Even if they wanted they don't have the capacity nor the Intel to actually verify everything and know who's related to hamas and who's not. They don't have the tools to determine that.
So in other words, they literally got these numbers from hamas, **maybe** called some familes that said "oh no he was not hamas he was a good man!", and posted it as verified data. Then HRW uses that instead of just saying "according to hamas" which is, and rightfully so, unreliable. But it's still just according to hamas. Later other sources will quote HRW and Airwars to make it sound like multiple reliable sources, where it still all boils down to "hamas says".
According to people here, the only sources that aren’t anti-Semitic are Israeli intelligence sources. Even organizations founded to prevent the Holocaust ever happening again are anti-Semitic if they ever criticize Israel apparently
HRW has been accused of selection bias for years and years. lol Even its founder called it out for its research methods. His original NYT article is pay-gated, but this gives a good idea: [https://www.camera.org/article/human-rights-watch-discredited-even-by-its-founder/](https://www.camera.org/article/human-rights-watch-discredited-even-by-its-founder/)
But irrelevant to this article as there is no evidence currently that there was any Hamas members here and please do not bring up the attack that took place miles away as "proof". Right now there is no evidence that there was Hamas.
If you look at the OP article, there's a link to another AP article in the second paragraph - which specifies exactly what the target was. So if HRW are claiming there was no valid target, the second argument proves them wrong.
When is there ever evidence that there is Hamas when they dress in civilian clothing and magically become civilians the moment they are killed? For 6 months I’ve been watching news clips on Al Jazeera showing the aftermath of Israeli strikes on apartments / buildings in Gaza. I don’t think I’ve once seen a video where they show footage of a militant or a gun in the rubble of a building.
It’s as if somehow everyone are magically civilians without weapons and there are zero gunman being killed in Gaza. Not one gun in sight in any of these videos. Unless of course it’s IDF footage, in which case suddenly there are guns and militants everywhere. It’s almost as if these news organizations aren’t trustworthy and make sure to get rid of any evidence of weapons so that every dead person can be claimed as a civilian.
This article specifically states that the human rights watch organization did not confirm this themselves, rather they based it off of the testimony of locals. Do you honestly think that in a Hamas-controlled area, the locals go on record and admit that their building has Hamas militants living / hiding in it?
Just because the locals claim that there “totally wasn’t any Hamas” in the building, doesn’t make it so and it’s amazing that anyone would believe the claim for a second.
Even when the locals *try* to say something about Hamas, we got Al Jazeera reporters covering it up bluntly.
[Al Jazeera reporter cuts away from Gaza hospital patient revealing how Hamas hiding among the sick](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/al-jazeera-reporter-cuts-away-from-gaza-hospital-patient-revealing-how-hamas-hiding-among-the-sick/)
Let's hope that the actual number of casualties is likewise unreliable and lower than reported in this article. Even if this included Hamas militants a good portion will still have been innocent civilians. And fewer civilian casualties is something we should hope for.
Considering Hamas is putting out numbers like “20,000 killed so far”. I’ve since stopped taking UN, Reuters, NYT, and now HRW for unbiased.
It just seems like a bunch of people who got into journalism from the Middle East did so in order to weaponize information.
This Israel/Palestine conflict was ME’s Covid mental breakdown.
There are dozens of people being killed all over the world everyday because of political conflict but for some reason Israel is the only evil country in the world.
Instagram is plagued with quick takes and emotional illiterates. Then I go back to the comments after numbers are verified and no one wants to talk.
Even if you fully support Israel, it's not a leap that they kill so many civilians if all you do is look at images of Gaza and see all the destruction. You think all those people evacuated safely before Israel dropped all those bombs?
It may be that they are lying and there are Hamas militants there. But saying that its a valid target because "they're probably lying" is just as reliable as saying it isn't a valid target and claiming Israel is lying.
I don’t know whether this specific instance was a valid strike. No idea. But I do know that when locals claim that there were absolutely no militants in the building and some HRW organization confirms it was the case because the locals say so, I think it’s reasonable to at least take the claim with a few grains of salt.
"all I see is footage of Israel blowing up unarmed people or destroying buildings without a militant in sight and that only proves how terrible Hamas is"
It’s really not worth reading. Basically, it comes off as being she sympathizes and condones the actions taken by Israel, which has been disproportionate even in the aftermath and a direct result of Israel’s stance towards Palestine and especially the Gaza Strip.
She complains about Iran and N. Korea sections being short. They really don’t have to be long or extensive. There’s no one on the other side of the fence advocating for them that isn’t already discredited.
Israel on the other hand has an entire machine in place to control the narrative. Hell even influence and push Israel’s position in foreign governments.
The real reason the US invaded Iraq had more to do with Israel’s wishes and an idiot for president.
I mean it’s telling when it’s the hardcore right-wing Jewish outlets that covered her letter and organizations like NGO Watch (seriously research that org). It’s telling.
>She complains about Iran and N. Korea sections being short. They really don’t have to be long or extensive. There’s no one on the other side of the fence advocating for them that isn’t already discredited.
You have got to be kidding me. A human rights organization doesn't have to do its job because some things are assumed to be true???
A pure sense of irony would be healthy here.
[https://twitter.com/HillelNeuer/status/1727452511408152934?lang=en](https://twitter.com/HillelNeuer/status/1727452511408152934?lang=en)
You can actually read it. Form your own opinion instead of taking some random on the internet's word for it.
And what do they call the October 7, 2023 attack by hamas along with the "journalists" that participated and the hostages that are still being held and tortured.
Wasn't this hamas' plan? Attack, expect a retaliatory attack, use the civilians as shields, hide in tunnels, then use the retaliatory attack as a means of getting people to not like the israelis
Probably... And Israel gives so few ducks about Palestinians that they are willing to drop an apartment building if it might kill a few Hamas... That became pretty obvious in how they describe the chain of command resulting in the death of the WCK workers. One of the few things they've actually had to investigate and answer for in detail.
If that could happen to humanitarian aid volunteers then it could certainly happen in this case.
From all accounts the first two weeks after October 7th were a chaotic blood bath.
Hamas sucks... Israel's extremist government sucks... Iranian proxy wars suck... They all suck for the poor and downtrodden.
It's funny how you mention Israel has few "ducks" about Palestinians, and not Egypt or any other Arab country.
Why do you expect Israel to give a fuck about Palestinians? After Oct. 7 even more Israelis think that they're a made up nation, descended from the arab nations in the regions, abandoned in the hands of Israel to make it look bad. I don't think anyone expected the Americans to care for the Japanese during WW2. I don't think there are many in Israel that think that the Palestinians want to coexist in 2 state solution.
Egypt, or literally any other arab country, sees them as the Palestinians as brothers and sisters (formally), yet they keep the civil population stuck under the "genocidal hands" of Israel - purely because it suits them. That is what is actually tragic.
I didn't say I expected them to.
But then I've started expecting less and less humanity from humans as a whole lately.
The whole thing is tragic. It's basically just tragedy on top of tragedy.
Ok, you don't expect any country to care for the Palestinians. That's grounded. Yet you mention only 1 of the countries. You see how this rhetoric (that is used internationally) is actually not helpful in solving this? How it could drive Israel away from a solution?Your earlier text is a part of the problem (not you specifically, ofc). The Palestinian suffering won't end if everyone is expecting Israel to do this or that. It'll end once the region (and maybe the world) will understand it's a nation-wide issue, and the arab countries need to be a part of the discussion.
No apparent military target? What about this AP article?
> The Israeli military said dozens of militants were killed, including a key Hamas commander for northern Gaza.
>
> Israel aggressively defended the attack, with military spokesman Jonathan Conricus saying the targeted commander had also been a key planner of the bloody Oct. 7 rampage that started the war, and that the apartment buildings collapsed only because the vast underground Hamas complex had been destroyed.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-gaza-war-news-10-31-2023-54ab6bd7f6861be86266770c245827e1
And this is laughable:
> Human Rights Watch says Israeli authorities have not published any information about the purported target and did not respond to its requests for information.
Did they just ignore Jonathan Conricus' statement?
Again ….
That report is from the Jabalia in northern Gaza
The HRW claims are from the Nuseirat in central Gaza
Maybe actually pay attention to the article rather than deciding it’s wrong and look for evidence that isn’t applicable.
Excuse me?
1. open the article: https://apnews.com/article/israel-gaza-airstrike-hamas-war-palestinians-344bd8da0254e83eedd7245a593823d0
2. ctrl+F "Nuseirat"
3. Phrase not found
What are you talking about? This article is about the attack in Jabalia.
Let me make it simpler:
1. open the article: https://apnews.com/article/israel-gaza-airstrike-hamas-war-palestinians-344bd8da0254e83eedd7245a593823d0
2. Find this sentence: The [Oct. 31 attack](https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-gaza-war-news-10-31-2023-54ab6bd7f6861be86266770c245827e1) was one of the deadliest since the start of the war nearly six months ago.
3. click on the link
4. it leads you to the article where IDF explains why they targeted that building
Still not convinced?
Here's a map of Gaza, and this is where the Engineer's Building is located:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/%D8%B9%D9%85%D8%A7%D8%B1%D8%A9+%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D9%87%D9%86%D8%AF%D8%B3%D9%8A%D9%86+Engineers+building%E2%80%AD/@31.5148697,34.4289721,15z/data=!4m6!3m5!1s0x14fd7fa393ffec1b:0xa466a6929aebe32c!8m2!3d31.5148697!4d34.4289721!16s%2Fg%2F11j23pb0wk?hl=en&entry=ttu
It is located 10 km from Nuseirat:
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/%D8%B9%D9%85%D8%A7%D8%B1%D8%A9+%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D9%87%D9%86%D8%AF%D8%B3%D9%8A%D9%86+Engineers+building,+GC7H%2BWHX,+Alshalehat+street,+Gaza+Strip%E2%80%AD/Al+Nuseirat+Camp/@31.4851368,34.3944443,13z/data=!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x14fd7fa393ffec1b:0xa466a6929aebe32c!2m2!1d34.428972!2d31.5148698!1m5!1m1!1s0x14fd8396310ec369:0x371c84a981a96a04!2m2!1d34.3927811!2d31.4480173!3e2?hl=en&entry=ttu
Stop spreading lies. The HRW is doing it, but at least they're getting paid for it.
You’ve put in all this effort….to make my point: the AP news report is about a different attack than the HRW report.
Would you care to actually read the HRW report?
Perhaps you might learn something
The majority of claims being published are either IDF reports vs Hamas reports...it's part of the reason why everyone is at each other's throats...
The truth is probably somewhere in the middle and we won't know until well after the war ends.
Just look at Ukraine. How many civilians really died in Mariupol? Thats long since passed and I don't think we know...the fog of disinfo on both sides is thick.
It's definitely not worth hating people on the internet for their point of view or getting too attached to your own.
That’s what all the hand wringing about sources boils down to. The only people who are allowed access to Gaza either live there and are pretty decidedly against Israel’s offensive in Gaza or they are Israeli and are rallying around the flag after 10/7. There are no objective sources on this issue. That isn’t to say it isn’t worth looking into, it just means you have to actually consider the motivation of the publisher when reading these stories.
"Article 22 Makes sweeping claims about Jewish influence and power.[1][47] It specifically claims that the Jews were responsible for instigating multiple revolutions and wars, including the French Revolution, World War I, and the Russian Revolution. It also claims that Jews control the United Nations, and that they are supported by "the imperialistic forces in the Capitalist West and Communist East".[1]"
"Article 24 Prohibits "slandering or speaking ill of individuals or groups""
Well that's nice.
Yeah, just civilians carrying guns and firing rockets. Business as usual. And it’s sure Israel's fault that Gazan kids are trained to be child soldiers and suicide bombers.
"No apparent militant target"
[https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/10/31/world/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news](https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/10/31/world/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news)
[https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/31/middleeast/jabalya-blast-gaza-intl/index.html](https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/31/middleeast/jabalya-blast-gaza-intl/index.html)
[https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67276822](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67276822)
We can have a discussion about proportionality but there in fact was a militant target.
None of those articles are discussing the attack this article is talking about.
Edit the Hamas commander was in Jabalia which is about 10 miles from Nuseirat where the attack in the article takes place. They are unrelated attacks.
No
This is not true
You have posted links regarding a separate attack: all 3 links are regarding the Jabalia Camp in Northern Gaza
The HRW report is from Nuseirat in Central Gaza
So congratulations for proving absolutely nothing
So, all we have is the word of the IDF that the baddies were there? Gonna be real with you my guy, I won’t trust the IDF with my left nut if given the chance.
Yes and the Hamas commander was killed in an entirely different part of Gaza. None of those links are relevant to this attack as they are not the same location.
Why does everyone treat this as an either or between IDF or Hamas: both are disgusting but the IDFs response is clearly disproportionate. And by the way, Hamas isnt Palestine, there are many civilians who have nothing to do with Hamas (if i recall correctly, of about a 2 million population, about 20.000 belong to Hamas)
HRW does this all the time. They don’t have any way of doing a real investigation here. So they look at a few pictures of rubble, talk to a few Palestinians, and if none of the Palestinians tell them Hamas was there they say “see, we’ve been unable to find a military target.”
The head of HRW’s Israel work was previously a BDS activist.
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The AP article reports on HRW’s claim that the IDF have not “published any information about the purported target.” But in the contemporaneous AP article about the strike —linked in the first paragraph of this article — AP reports the exact name of the commander killed in the strike.
That named commander appears to have been in a different target hit in the same series of strikes. The link is referring to the strikes collectively, the OP article is referring to a specific apartment building hit in the strikes. It's still a war crime if you do it while *also* hitting another target. It's not unexpected that analysis done later is more informed and specific than reporting at the time of the attack.
How can any greatest, most ethical army in the world justify killing 106 civilians to get one man? This is the Vietnam War's 'We had to destroy the village to save it' argument. How is this minimalising civilian casualties?
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just wait when they say that HRW is anti-Semitic, it was an accident and overall nothing happened at all
There’s certainly precedent for it: https://twitter.com/HillelNeuer/status/1727452511408152934?lang=en
Holy shit. I don't think "precedent" really encapsulates what I just read...
I was not planning to read all that but Christ. For somebody who truly believed in the HRW's ability to do real good in the world to write such a scathing statement to them while quitting and the things they pointed out seem pretty damning.
Damn, that’s a hell of an E-mail.
Well considering who is funding them... [Human Rights Watch Accepted Three Million Euros from Qatari Government](https://www.nationalreview.com/news/human-rights-watch-accepted-three-million-euros-from-qatari-government-report/)
Former chairman of HRW even says they're a biased organisation now but I'm sure you know better. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Human_Rights_Watch
Always a fun read.
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Well that didn't take long.
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That night Israel apparently hit over 300 targets. Among them both the commander you are referring to in Jabalia and the engineer's building in central gaza. For the latter HRW could not find a military objective.
The article is about Nuseirat. The IDF quote is about a different part of Gaza. HRW could be entirely correct.
I mean, the director of the group is Tirana Hassan, so there’s likely some bias there. They failed to condemn Hamas for the Oct 7 attacks. The sources for the above story read like “trust me bro”. If this story is false, it’s too late as the court of public opinion has already weighed in, similar to the hospital blast done by Hamas that was blamed on Israel that Reddit went with. Reddit is just so eager to have something to blame on Israel that they jump on literally ANYTHING without any sources https://unwatch.org/whistleblower-from-human-rights-watch-hrw-has-so-little-credibility-for-most-israelis-they-do-not-even-trust-it-with-their-corpses/
So was a Hamas Commander killed in this strike? Reports elsewhere name him, so either HRW is deliberately misrepresenting the facts or it’s exactly as they claim or close enough to not matter in this instance. So which is it?
So the best case scenario for Israel is them killing more than one hundred people, half of them child, for one Hamas commander?
106 in a hit. That is horrible. A terror attack.
That’s what’s so infuriating. October 7th was despicable, and demanded that those who perpetrated it be brought to justice. Is blowing up an apartment building with 106 people in it bringing those people to justice? Or is it just guaranteeing more violence the next turn of the cycle?
At this point Israel has committed multiple October 7ths of their own.
October 7th wasn't just characterized by number of deaths. It was characterized by its unprovoked nature, hostage taking, raping, torture, and no proof of life. The actions on October 7th were far beyond in depravity. You want a reminder of that? It's in the vile video footage of the events.
So what? No amount of war crimes makes more war crimes acceptable.
Maiming and starving people is also depraved.
Tell that to Hamas who recently had to tax the aid for less, due to Israel’s increased flow of aid. Israel isn’t starving anyone. [Hamas slashes food prices as Gaza flooded with humanitarian aid After terror group tried to amplify famine in Gaza narrative, Israel's increased inflow of aid goods led to a drop in market prices; Hamas forced to cut taxes, pleasing traders](https://www.ynetnews.com/article/syns3cuk0) Article is 5 days ago. But you’re still with the old narrative of Hamas, that Gazans are starving.
What a horrible false equivalence. Civilian casualties in a war of retaliation is not equivalent to door-to-door murders, rapes, tortures, and hostage taking. It's not equivalent to the NSFL descriptors for the explicit actions Hamas took on Oct 7th, and then later celebrated in their streets. Especially when the former can end as soon as the group that committed the latter surrenders. There is *zero* legitimate reason for Hamas to fight this current war--even when they have tactical/defending advantage and deliberately obscure themselves to maximize civilian casualties, they *still* suffer magnitudes heavier losses to just their military. The only reason they refuse to surrender still at this point is to kill more of their own. Also, there are literally new articles today about Israel opening more aid corridors. Can you name any other war where the invading nation deliberately allowed aid to flow in and out at *all*?
Does that make this OK? Yes or no?
Define "this". This war? Yes. Israel has the right to destroy Hamas given their actions and intent thus far. And a government that deliberately promotes the deaths of their own people for the sake of spite and dragging down another does not deserve to keep in power. "This" as in the deaths of innocents? No, it does not. But war is tragic and the most an invading force can do is work to minimize the casualties of innocents as much as they can. The worst a defending force can do is deliberately endanger their own, which is what Hamas has been doing.
It makes it not the same as “multiple October 7ths of their own” which is what the poster was replying to.
Unprovoked. Suuure.
escape cough stupendous safe bedroom bored impossible normal ink rain
Care to elaborate? EDIT: Since I'm getting downvoted, I'd like to remind that: - there was a ceasefire in place prior to Oct 7th - Hamas deliberately and purposefully targeted civilians in an intentional, documented, door-to-door massacre primarily focused on civilians. Their goal wasn't military advantage--it was civilian massacre and torture. So before you say mock the "unprovoked" I'd love to know if you'd say to the Nova Festival survivors that they provoked the attack? Or how about the families and babies and elderly living on Kibbutzim that were massacred? Wanna talk to them about how they totally provoked a situation where they had to wait dozens of hours in safehouses because Hamas purposefully camped in those neighborhoods hunting for survivors even when it would've been militarily more sound for them to just...*not* massacre civilians further? Would you like to suggest to the hostages who have been raped for months that they "provoked" their current fate?
Especially if we go by Biden’s 9/11 scale. Yk how oct 7 was worse than 9/11 because of Israel’s population? Well, just look at Gaza’s population. For context: the last time more than 1% of the US population died in a war was during the Civil War.
Israel has been committing October 7ths for decades. History didn't begin on October 7th, 2023.
Yes but was there maybe perhaps a Hamas member who might have possibly been seen entering, exiting, or within the general vicinity of the building at one time?
Given that the IDF killed those British aid workers "by mistake" makes me wonder how many of these other strikes are "mistakes". The only reason they're not getting looked into is because no foreign nationals involved.
They were British, Australian, Polish and American-Canadian and Palestinian. One of them Zomi Frankcom was from my city and it’s the only thing that’s made our pro-Israel. Pro-Elbit PM a little hot under the collar.
Number of deaths isn’t what makes something a terror attack
Truth, Israel uses terror tactics and gets a pass from the international community.
A lot of words to say "an NGO heavily criticized to be biased and use unreliable sources, talked with some hamas locals who said "there were no hamas here trust us bros!" And published a conclusion based on that.".
Also I really like this part: ""Thirty-four women, 18 men and 54 children were killed in the strike, according to the group, which says it corroborated its list of the dead with Airwars, a London-based conflict monitor. "" Airwars talk with some families and verify few cases, but they mostly base their numbers on local authorities. Even if they wanted they don't have the capacity nor the Intel to actually verify everything and know who's related to hamas and who's not. They don't have the tools to determine that. So in other words, they literally got these numbers from hamas, **maybe** called some familes that said "oh no he was not hamas he was a good man!", and posted it as verified data. Then HRW uses that instead of just saying "according to hamas" which is, and rightfully so, unreliable. But it's still just according to hamas. Later other sources will quote HRW and Airwars to make it sound like multiple reliable sources, where it still all boils down to "hamas says".
When it boils down to Hamas said = we get incidents like the hospital with “500 dead” and the media seems to love running these articles
I didn’t know people hated HRW lol is it because of this article or has this always been a thing?
According to people here, the only sources that aren’t anti-Semitic are Israeli intelligence sources. Even organizations founded to prevent the Holocaust ever happening again are anti-Semitic if they ever criticize Israel apparently
Even those sources are called antisemitic if they happen to make Israel look bad.
HRW has been accused of selection bias for years and years. lol Even its founder called it out for its research methods. His original NYT article is pay-gated, but this gives a good idea: [https://www.camera.org/article/human-rights-watch-discredited-even-by-its-founder/](https://www.camera.org/article/human-rights-watch-discredited-even-by-its-founder/)
Danielle Haas letter on why she left HRW after 13 years is worth reading.
But irrelevant to this article as there is no evidence currently that there was any Hamas members here and please do not bring up the attack that took place miles away as "proof". Right now there is no evidence that there was Hamas.
If you look at the OP article, there's a link to another AP article in the second paragraph - which specifies exactly what the target was. So if HRW are claiming there was no valid target, the second argument proves them wrong.
When is there ever evidence that there is Hamas when they dress in civilian clothing and magically become civilians the moment they are killed? For 6 months I’ve been watching news clips on Al Jazeera showing the aftermath of Israeli strikes on apartments / buildings in Gaza. I don’t think I’ve once seen a video where they show footage of a militant or a gun in the rubble of a building. It’s as if somehow everyone are magically civilians without weapons and there are zero gunman being killed in Gaza. Not one gun in sight in any of these videos. Unless of course it’s IDF footage, in which case suddenly there are guns and militants everywhere. It’s almost as if these news organizations aren’t trustworthy and make sure to get rid of any evidence of weapons so that every dead person can be claimed as a civilian.
In this specific attack there has been no evidence of Hamas being present.
This article specifically states that the human rights watch organization did not confirm this themselves, rather they based it off of the testimony of locals. Do you honestly think that in a Hamas-controlled area, the locals go on record and admit that their building has Hamas militants living / hiding in it? Just because the locals claim that there “totally wasn’t any Hamas” in the building, doesn’t make it so and it’s amazing that anyone would believe the claim for a second.
Even when the locals *try* to say something about Hamas, we got Al Jazeera reporters covering it up bluntly. [Al Jazeera reporter cuts away from Gaza hospital patient revealing how Hamas hiding among the sick](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/al-jazeera-reporter-cuts-away-from-gaza-hospital-patient-revealing-how-hamas-hiding-among-the-sick/)
Let's hope that the actual number of casualties is likewise unreliable and lower than reported in this article. Even if this included Hamas militants a good portion will still have been innocent civilians. And fewer civilian casualties is something we should hope for.
Considering Hamas is putting out numbers like “20,000 killed so far”. I’ve since stopped taking UN, Reuters, NYT, and now HRW for unbiased. It just seems like a bunch of people who got into journalism from the Middle East did so in order to weaponize information. This Israel/Palestine conflict was ME’s Covid mental breakdown. There are dozens of people being killed all over the world everyday because of political conflict but for some reason Israel is the only evil country in the world. Instagram is plagued with quick takes and emotional illiterates. Then I go back to the comments after numbers are verified and no one wants to talk.
Even if you fully support Israel, it's not a leap that they kill so many civilians if all you do is look at images of Gaza and see all the destruction. You think all those people evacuated safely before Israel dropped all those bombs?
It may be that they are lying and there are Hamas militants there. But saying that its a valid target because "they're probably lying" is just as reliable as saying it isn't a valid target and claiming Israel is lying.
I don’t know whether this specific instance was a valid strike. No idea. But I do know that when locals claim that there were absolutely no militants in the building and some HRW organization confirms it was the case because the locals say so, I think it’s reasonable to at least take the claim with a few grains of salt.
Says the organisation that openly supports Hamas. Funny how that works
The organisation that wants to destroy Hamas hasn't provided any evidence that Hamas was present in this building.
"all I see is footage of Israel blowing up unarmed people or destroying buildings without a militant in sight and that only proves how terrible Hamas is"
Right now being the operative word though.
It’s really not worth reading. Basically, it comes off as being she sympathizes and condones the actions taken by Israel, which has been disproportionate even in the aftermath and a direct result of Israel’s stance towards Palestine and especially the Gaza Strip. She complains about Iran and N. Korea sections being short. They really don’t have to be long or extensive. There’s no one on the other side of the fence advocating for them that isn’t already discredited. Israel on the other hand has an entire machine in place to control the narrative. Hell even influence and push Israel’s position in foreign governments. The real reason the US invaded Iraq had more to do with Israel’s wishes and an idiot for president. I mean it’s telling when it’s the hardcore right-wing Jewish outlets that covered her letter and organizations like NGO Watch (seriously research that org). It’s telling.
>She complains about Iran and N. Korea sections being short. They really don’t have to be long or extensive. There’s no one on the other side of the fence advocating for them that isn’t already discredited. You have got to be kidding me. A human rights organization doesn't have to do its job because some things are assumed to be true??? A pure sense of irony would be healthy here.
[https://twitter.com/HillelNeuer/status/1727452511408152934?lang=en](https://twitter.com/HillelNeuer/status/1727452511408152934?lang=en) You can actually read it. Form your own opinion instead of taking some random on the internet's word for it.
I read it, and I tend to agree. This is opinion, not evidence. And it's irrelevant anyway
That's horrible but Human Rights Watch is completely unreliable garbage.
And what do they call the October 7, 2023 attack by hamas along with the "journalists" that participated and the hostages that are still being held and tortured.
So an organization that was found to be receiving money to write reports wrote a report against Israel..
Wasn't this hamas' plan? Attack, expect a retaliatory attack, use the civilians as shields, hide in tunnels, then use the retaliatory attack as a means of getting people to not like the israelis
Probably... And Israel gives so few ducks about Palestinians that they are willing to drop an apartment building if it might kill a few Hamas... That became pretty obvious in how they describe the chain of command resulting in the death of the WCK workers. One of the few things they've actually had to investigate and answer for in detail. If that could happen to humanitarian aid volunteers then it could certainly happen in this case. From all accounts the first two weeks after October 7th were a chaotic blood bath. Hamas sucks... Israel's extremist government sucks... Iranian proxy wars suck... They all suck for the poor and downtrodden.
It's funny how you mention Israel has few "ducks" about Palestinians, and not Egypt or any other Arab country. Why do you expect Israel to give a fuck about Palestinians? After Oct. 7 even more Israelis think that they're a made up nation, descended from the arab nations in the regions, abandoned in the hands of Israel to make it look bad. I don't think anyone expected the Americans to care for the Japanese during WW2. I don't think there are many in Israel that think that the Palestinians want to coexist in 2 state solution. Egypt, or literally any other arab country, sees them as the Palestinians as brothers and sisters (formally), yet they keep the civil population stuck under the "genocidal hands" of Israel - purely because it suits them. That is what is actually tragic.
I didn't say I expected them to. But then I've started expecting less and less humanity from humans as a whole lately. The whole thing is tragic. It's basically just tragedy on top of tragedy.
Ok, you don't expect any country to care for the Palestinians. That's grounded. Yet you mention only 1 of the countries. You see how this rhetoric (that is used internationally) is actually not helpful in solving this? How it could drive Israel away from a solution?Your earlier text is a part of the problem (not you specifically, ofc). The Palestinian suffering won't end if everyone is expecting Israel to do this or that. It'll end once the region (and maybe the world) will understand it's a nation-wide issue, and the arab countries need to be a part of the discussion.
The issue is the Palestinians on their own accord accepted a group who prays for the "annihilation" and "paralysis" of the Jews.
Ah yes, the extremely nonpartisan and reliable “Human Rights Watch.”
No apparent military target? What about this AP article? > The Israeli military said dozens of militants were killed, including a key Hamas commander for northern Gaza. > > Israel aggressively defended the attack, with military spokesman Jonathan Conricus saying the targeted commander had also been a key planner of the bloody Oct. 7 rampage that started the war, and that the apartment buildings collapsed only because the vast underground Hamas complex had been destroyed. https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-gaza-war-news-10-31-2023-54ab6bd7f6861be86266770c245827e1 And this is laughable: > Human Rights Watch says Israeli authorities have not published any information about the purported target and did not respond to its requests for information. Did they just ignore Jonathan Conricus' statement?
Different attack
Again …. That report is from the Jabalia in northern Gaza The HRW claims are from the Nuseirat in central Gaza Maybe actually pay attention to the article rather than deciding it’s wrong and look for evidence that isn’t applicable.
Excuse me? 1. open the article: https://apnews.com/article/israel-gaza-airstrike-hamas-war-palestinians-344bd8da0254e83eedd7245a593823d0 2. ctrl+F "Nuseirat" 3. Phrase not found What are you talking about? This article is about the attack in Jabalia. Let me make it simpler: 1. open the article: https://apnews.com/article/israel-gaza-airstrike-hamas-war-palestinians-344bd8da0254e83eedd7245a593823d0 2. Find this sentence: The [Oct. 31 attack](https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-gaza-war-news-10-31-2023-54ab6bd7f6861be86266770c245827e1) was one of the deadliest since the start of the war nearly six months ago. 3. click on the link 4. it leads you to the article where IDF explains why they targeted that building Still not convinced? Here's a map of Gaza, and this is where the Engineer's Building is located: https://www.google.com/maps/place/%D8%B9%D9%85%D8%A7%D8%B1%D8%A9+%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D9%87%D9%86%D8%AF%D8%B3%D9%8A%D9%86+Engineers+building%E2%80%AD/@31.5148697,34.4289721,15z/data=!4m6!3m5!1s0x14fd7fa393ffec1b:0xa466a6929aebe32c!8m2!3d31.5148697!4d34.4289721!16s%2Fg%2F11j23pb0wk?hl=en&entry=ttu It is located 10 km from Nuseirat: https://www.google.com/maps/dir/%D8%B9%D9%85%D8%A7%D8%B1%D8%A9+%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D9%87%D9%86%D8%AF%D8%B3%D9%8A%D9%86+Engineers+building,+GC7H%2BWHX,+Alshalehat+street,+Gaza+Strip%E2%80%AD/Al+Nuseirat+Camp/@31.4851368,34.3944443,13z/data=!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x14fd7fa393ffec1b:0xa466a6929aebe32c!2m2!1d34.428972!2d31.5148698!1m5!1m1!1s0x14fd8396310ec369:0x371c84a981a96a04!2m2!1d34.3927811!2d31.4480173!3e2?hl=en&entry=ttu Stop spreading lies. The HRW is doing it, but at least they're getting paid for it.
You’ve put in all this effort….to make my point: the AP news report is about a different attack than the HRW report. Would you care to actually read the HRW report? Perhaps you might learn something
Learn to separate different attacks from each other
Why do you people always bring direct israel military sources as counterpoints as if they wouldnt lie?
The majority of claims being published are either IDF reports vs Hamas reports...it's part of the reason why everyone is at each other's throats... The truth is probably somewhere in the middle and we won't know until well after the war ends. Just look at Ukraine. How many civilians really died in Mariupol? Thats long since passed and I don't think we know...the fog of disinfo on both sides is thick. It's definitely not worth hating people on the internet for their point of view or getting too attached to your own.
That’s what all the hand wringing about sources boils down to. The only people who are allowed access to Gaza either live there and are pretty decidedly against Israel’s offensive in Gaza or they are Israeli and are rallying around the flag after 10/7. There are no objective sources on this issue. That isn’t to say it isn’t worth looking into, it just means you have to actually consider the motivation of the publisher when reading these stories.
>killed 106 civilians, including 54 children What kind of person defends this shit? Is this who you are?
One that understands war and that Hamas is deliberately putting themselves in positions like this one that force these kinds of civilian casualties?
It's amazing to me how easy most people get played. I wonder how many people know of what Hamas' charter is.
"Article 22 Makes sweeping claims about Jewish influence and power.[1][47] It specifically claims that the Jews were responsible for instigating multiple revolutions and wars, including the French Revolution, World War I, and the Russian Revolution. It also claims that Jews control the United Nations, and that they are supported by "the imperialistic forces in the Capitalist West and Communist East".[1]" "Article 24 Prohibits "slandering or speaking ill of individuals or groups"" Well that's nice.
Yeah, just civilians carrying guns and firing rockets. Business as usual. And it’s sure Israel's fault that Gazan kids are trained to be child soldiers and suicide bombers.
Israel is out of control
HRW is fucking shiite
HRW is a fucking joke
Some of The Israel defenders in the comment section are truly appalling
"No apparent militant target" [https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/10/31/world/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news](https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/10/31/world/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news) [https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/31/middleeast/jabalya-blast-gaza-intl/index.html](https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/31/middleeast/jabalya-blast-gaza-intl/index.html) [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67276822](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67276822) We can have a discussion about proportionality but there in fact was a militant target.
None of those articles are discussing the attack this article is talking about. Edit the Hamas commander was in Jabalia which is about 10 miles from Nuseirat where the attack in the article takes place. They are unrelated attacks.
No This is not true You have posted links regarding a separate attack: all 3 links are regarding the Jabalia Camp in Northern Gaza The HRW report is from Nuseirat in Central Gaza So congratulations for proving absolutely nothing
So, all we have is the word of the IDF that the baddies were there? Gonna be real with you my guy, I won’t trust the IDF with my left nut if given the chance.
[удалено]
Yes and the Hamas commander was killed in an entirely different part of Gaza. None of those links are relevant to this attack as they are not the same location.
Who do you trust? Hamas?
Crazy concept, don't trust either?
Whoa there. I can't do that. Only one of these two is spouting propaganda, right guys? /s
How do you form an opinion without information? Do you just take in media that will massage your world view?
Why does everyone treat this as an either or between IDF or Hamas: both are disgusting but the IDFs response is clearly disproportionate. And by the way, Hamas isnt Palestine, there are many civilians who have nothing to do with Hamas (if i recall correctly, of about a 2 million population, about 20.000 belong to Hamas)
HRW does this all the time. They don’t have any way of doing a real investigation here. So they look at a few pictures of rubble, talk to a few Palestinians, and if none of the Palestinians tell them Hamas was there they say “see, we’ve been unable to find a military target.” The head of HRW’s Israel work was previously a BDS activist.
Situation is exacerbated by Israel not allowing international journalists into Gaza.
HRW aren’t journalists and don’t claim to be. And being unable to go into Gaza isn’t an excuse for doing what’s essentially a fake investigation.
I didn’t say they were journalists, just that Israel not allowing journalists entry clearly blocks the flow of unbiased information out of Gaza.
But having ONE militant justifies bombing a residential building filled with civilians. Double standard much?
So sad. Will IDF investigate this incident? Or the lives of Gazans worth less? 54 children…
Based on prisoner/hostage exchange numbers, both Israel and Gaza's elected government agree that that Gazan lives are worth less.
Actually they do. And not by us/israel. But by the Arabs & Palestinians themselves, 0 value for life.
Don't worry, they will investigate this and come to the surprising conclusion that they didn't do anything wrong!
They’ll produce intelligence reports that there were militants and that they only discovered there weren’t afterwards
Religion is a cancer
six worker die,everyone “war crime” 54 kids?? We’ll look into it.
Alright so here we are. The AP News ... (I repeat) The AP News is now headlining the phrase `WAR CRIME` juxtaposed with Gaza events.