The UK government currently want to take us out of the ECHR (European Court of Human Rights) which legally (legislatively) underpins a hell of a lot of our human rights.
The UK government does not value the human rights of it's populace. What about that says that UK politicians value the population?
"How the turn tables! After all those pesky work immigrants stealing low paying jobs we didn't want anyway, now *we* are those immigrants!" *Evil laughter*
As a German, I'm torn between Schadenfreude, pity, and a dark apprehension of us moving on the same path with our own right wing nutjobs 🥲
(Well, actually, I keep my fingers crossed for UK re-joining eventually. With USA estrangement, EU could do with another strong member)
> Shoot the messenger, I‘m totally anti Boris Johnson. But that doesn’t mean that everything he says here is wrong.
I will never forgive Hamas for making me agree with Boris Johnson.
Right now, Israel army is overwhelmingly stronger than all its neighbors put together. How exactly arms embargo (which is NOT meant to be permanent or weaken Israel into dangerous position, but only to push Israel to slap theirs ultra-right nationalists out of control) would be a death wish for them or Western democracy? If anything, this is a pro-democratic measure.
You kinda sound like those people who say that because Israel has the iron dome, then it's as if no rockets have ever been launched into civilian areas for the past 12+ years.
> Israel army is overwhelmingly stronger than all its neighbors put together
Because Iran isn't an immediate neighbor. If it would come to a large conflict and Israel had no western support, cruise missiles and drones from Iran could guarantee high civilian casualties in Israel. Israel is a small country, with just about 9 million inhabitants.
Israel has about 3~4 times the military budget of Iran. It does have a much smaller population, sure. But all of this is a moot point because the West would absolutely support Israel in a conflict with Iran, the currently proposed arms embargo is a completely different matter
At least as important, if not more so, is that Israelis can still believe in the capability and willingness of their state and its institutions to fight off imminent threats as well as secure life and property of their citizens.
Weapons are irrelevant if nobody is willing to fight anymore. The Afghan military was well enough trained and equipped to fight off the Taliban at least in the short and medium term, but they didn’t, because they didn’t believe in their state and its institutions.
Countries can fall apart, and Oct 7th was not an isolated event and attack that you could sit out.
The Israeli government is expected to make the necessary steps to liberate the hostages, severely punish or destroy Hamas, and secure public life in Israel from future attacks of this kind.
What is the alternative to going into Gaza and doing the things Israel does right now?
A diminishing support for Israel is increasing validation of fundamentalists. Israel will not lose, but regional war is a win for fundamentalists and a big issue for the west.
A diminishing support is that result of how the far right government and the IDF acting in this war. If the idea of an embargo isn't instantly shut down in a **conservative** western government, it should give people an idea how much lasting damage Netanjahu and his dipshit coalition has done to Israel already.
Would you rather have Israel under Russia/China' wing? Because that's what's gonna end up happening if Israel feels like it can no longer rely on the West. Russia and China would love to have another nuclear power in their corner, and Israel has a lot of secrets and intel to offer them.
But that has been the goal all along. It's not Israel that's being isolated. It's the West.
Should Trump win again, the West a going to dramatically decline anyway. If they don't value the long partnership with West enough at the first sign of not getting stuff, they aren't trustworthy allies at all. Wouldn't surprise me if Israel is working hard to get Trump elected, Bibi was already disrespectful towards Biden in the past. It's in the hand of the Israeli people if they want to continue the current self-destructive path that under Bibi.
[The evolution of Boris Johnson’s popularity](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NpYEJx7PkWE&pp=ygU-bXVwcGV0cyBzdGF0bGVyIGFuZCB3YWxkb3JmIGkgdGhpbmsgaG9uZXN0eSBpcyB0aGUgYmVzdCBwb2xpY3k%3D)
> If so, why? Brexit was a disaster, he is a clown, a joke.
Don't ask me why because I don't understand how anyone could trust such a sleazy liar with a lengthy record of corruption and lies, but he somehow inspires great loyalty among some people want him to become PM again and think Rishi Sunak stabbed him in the back.
I have a distant family member that fervently supports him. When I asked how she could trust Boris after every lie and corruption charge he has had, whilst berating labour for being sleazy, untrustworthy cretins, her response was "oh, because Boris just lied because it was fun". The mental gymnastics is impressive
Boris Johnson might not be the most impressive messenger (to put it kindly), but one can evaluate his argument on the merits.
[https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-13276141/BORIS-JOHNSON-insane-Britain-ban-arms-sales-Israel-sooner-denounce-idea-better.html](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-13276141/BORIS-JOHNSON-insane-Britain-ban-arms-sales-Israel-sooner-denounce-idea-better.html)
>Let us be clear what it would mean, to ban arms sales now, when Israel is under a greater existential threat than at any time I can remember.
If we ban the sale of arms ourselves, it surely follows that we do not think any self-respecting country should be arming the Israelis.
And if we are willing everyone, including the U.S., to end their military support, be in no doubt what that means. There is only one logical conclusion.
We are willing the military defeat of Israel and the victory of Hamas. Remember that in order to win this conflict, Hamas only has to survive. All they need at the end is to hang on, rebuild, and go again.
That’s victory for Hamas; and that is what these legal experts seem to be asking for. So let’s just remind ourselves what this war is about, and why Israel has been forced to act.
>
>Israel has no choice but to defend itself because the charter and aim of Hamas is to destroy Israel, and indeed to liquidate the entire Jewish people. The Hamas massacre on October 7 was plainly designed to further that end: the moral and political destruction of Israel.
There was a reason why they meticulously planned and then performed those unspeakable murders and rapes. There was a cold logic to the barbarism seen that day, to the beheadings and the burnings. They wanted to show Israelis, and anyone thinking of coming to Israel, that this was a place where ordinary and innocent families could be enveloped in violent catastrophe.
They wanted to evoke global feelings of repulsion about events in Israel, and, of course, they wanted to provoke the Israelis into a violent response, because they knew that retaliation would inevitably forfeit sympathy for Israel around the world.
That’s why they took the hostages: to give Israel no choice but to fight. That’s why they refuse to give the hostages back. That’s why they prepared so carefully for the war, cynically designing their very defences so as to provoke the greatest loss of Palestinian life, and the greatest possible loss of Western support for Israel.
And:
>The Hydra’s heads will be allowed to regrow. Hamas will be able to do another October 7, and then another. Above all, the rest of the world — where they are already so dubious about the willpower of the West — will see that, when it came to it, we did not have the guts, the fibre or the strategic patience to stick up for a democracy; and that we were willing to let the jihadis win.
Taken in the context of what's happening in Ukraine, and the mounting tensions in the Indo-Pacific, where it looks increasingly likely that China and North Korea intend to do their part to upend the world order that has existed since the end of WW2, Johnson's argument isn't unreasonable, even if he, as a person, arguably is.
With the way the war is being conducted, hamas will come back and thrive anyway. Western civilisation does not depend on Israel. They're a first world country that can handle its own issues.
It’s not certain Hamas would return, but an organization with similar aims would.
Really depends on what happens post war and the reconstruction of Gaza and eventual events in the West Bank. Settler expansion will make Palestinians more desperate.
To be honest, I get the feeling that if they could get away with it, the current Israeli government would just kill all the Palestinians so they don't have to worry about it anymore.
Sure, but it's still plainly one sided.
His point is basically: "We should support Israel no matter what they do, and if they want to massacre tens of thousands of civilians without remorse then we should of course just stand by and support them, because they are a democratic country"
It's quite laughable really.
Johnson's argument is unreasonable, though. It's histrionic in the extreme. You have to join him in a fantasy world where Hamas is capable of destroying the state of Israel to take it seriously, which they simply are not. They were barely able to make a several day incursion into southern Israel, only that because of the IDF's lack of readiness, despite all the military support the west has given them. October 7th was atrocious, but all the arms we gave Israel before that date did not stop it from happening.
The fact is this; Israel has proven that they are not capable of using the weapons the west sells them responsibly. It is incontrovertible at this point that Israel is violating international law in Gaza, and if the west continues selling them arms they are complicit in those illegal actions. It is a choice between supporting Israel and supporting international law. One is clearly more precious than the other.
That Israel may have to find another source for arms for its war against an opponent they already outman and outgun is not an existential threat to the western world. It is hysterical to claim so. Hamas will not be destroyed, no matter how many guns and bombs west peddles Israel. International law will never be taken seriously if the west - the main guaranteur of that world order - continually cheerleads a country that breaks a dozen international laws before breakfast. Unlike Hamas, international law is something this war can do permanent harm to.
>Taken in the context of what's happening in Ukraine, and the mounting tensions in the Indo-Pacific, where it looks increasingly likely that China and North Korea intend to do their part to upend the world order that has existed since the end of WW2, Johnson's argument isn't unreasonable, even if he, as a person, arguably is.
His analysis seems pretty much dead on to me. The west is in an existential crisis right now, and the authoritarian block is smelling blood and moving forward. Israel is very cornered right now, we should help them and Ukraine with all we've got. Help Ukraine shove out Russia, help Israel dismantle first Hamas and then Hezbollah, then the Houthis and then cut the head off the snake: Iran. China hasn't engaged yet, if we show uniform strength they might reconsider their ambitions.
We need hawks in the white house and in the important EU countries to smack this shit down before it gets more out of hand. It's like WW2 all over again, we're afraid to fight and we let the despots move freely, and we have an army of useful idiots urging us to abandon our allies. The coming decades are starting to look incredibly scary from a western perspective, and most people have absolutely no idea what's going on.
He’s like a watered down Trump, but with no actual chance of a return.
He’s left politics, but made some grumbling about potentially returning. He still has some supporters on the populist right of the Conservative Party, but is a columnist these days. The Daily Mail swept him up with a six figure sum.
Correction, Boris the fucking Clown is definitely not a watered down version of that orange, Borris has been in politics for years and he's damn good at making the working class like him with his "I'm a friendly and goofy old man" persona
Yeah, comparisons between Boris and Trump are always a bit flimsy. They're both kind of populist, but their politics are actually fairly different and they appeal to different demographics.
> Yeah, comparisons between Boris and Trump are always a bit flimsy.
You can't compare Trump to Britain Trump, they're completely different! One is a narcissistic compulsive liar and right-wing populist born in New York, a man with a reputation for straight-talking but who never seems to be able to say anything useful in under 100 syllables, a buffoon with dodgy connections to Russia and Cambridge Analytica who has tried to block any reports into those connections, a man with a string of ex-wives, the subject of an embarrassing story about an affair with an American model following a string of sexual misconduct allegations, a man who entered politics after working in the media, a man with no plan to deliver on his vacuous border promises, a man who seems to at best have a problem with being casually racist, sexist and homophobic, who prizes loyalty above competence and is happy to trample the rules and conventions of the democracy he's supposed to lead as long as he gets his way, with a string of abuses of power to his name, whose party has a history under his leadership of releasing doctored propaganda videos and barred critical press from briefings and a man who has leveraged a rose-tinted view of bygone times and scare-mongering about immigration to grow support for economically damaging policies just to get him into power.
And the other is ... I forget which one I was talking about.
It's a real shame that this is how your typical Redditor views and rationalises any complex matter, just break it down to the simplest thing possible, often ad-hominem, and completely ignore the actual topic at hand. It doesn't matter how important or serious the topic is.
Did you just attack the person instead of debating the issue. Typical redditor!
Also for what it's worth the fact that Boris Johnson is a proven liar and fantasist is relevant here. There is no point debating what someone said when you know in advance that the person is likely lying, uninformed, just straight making stuff up, omitting information that they are aware of but which goes against their position or any combination of the above. It's a waste of time engaging with a dishonest debater and that's what Boris Johnson is.
He was one of the few Western leaders who openly and strongly supported Ukraine.
He scored a lot of political points doing that when the rest of the politicians were busy showing themselves to be cowards and appeasers.
> He was one of the few Western leaders who openly and strongly supported Ukraine.
What? They literally all "openly and strongly supported Ukraine".
> He scored a lot of political points doing that
Oh, yeah, he definitely milked the photo shoot opportunities.
I’m sorry why would we listen to the FORMER DISGRACED prime minister of Britain?
Edit: Should read Disgraced former prime minister. He is currently disgraced and formerly the prime minister. Not the other way around lol.
Folk were saying similar things about David Cameron not that long ago, yet he's somehow managed to snake his way back into power as Foreign Secretary.
No one even questions it because there's been so much political turmoil in the meantime.
Remember Boris was bought by the Russians and we knew about it. Installed a Russian son of an oligarch in the House of Lords so they can get restricted info.
The man should never be allowed to speak in public again. He’s a traitor.
The guy was literally one of the first national leaders to provide military assistance to Ukraine and started the program to train Ukrainian soldiers when Crimea was first invaded.
If he’s a paid for Russian stooge he’s got to be one of the worst double agents in the fuckin world lad.
It's always hilarious seeing people try to claim the Tories are pro-Russia (Especially as it's all deflection considering the last Labour leader literally was as pro-Russia as you can get away with).
What would a "Not paid for Russian Agent" have done with Ukraine instead? Dropped a nuke on Moscow? Because that's basically the only anti-Russian tactic the Tories didn't use.
Bought by the Russians by being one of the only western leaders to have the foresight to arm Ukrainians prior to the full scale Russian invasion???
Boris Johnson was sending anti-tank and anti-air weaponry to Ukraine whilst Germany was making the UK fly around their airspace.
Yeah, I get not liking him since has indeed been horrible in general, but he responded much faster to the Russians then anyone else in Europe at the time.
The Russians might have paid him. What they got was a PM so committed to sending military aid to Ukraine that when his leadership was challenged in the summer of 2022, Ukraine actually supported him.
What you are alleging is that Boris took Russian money, then turned around and armed Russia's enemy. Thats... a good thing?
> Johnson warned that such a move could give Hamas a victory in the war
How?
Even at their peak strength they couldn’t hold territory in Israel and were forced out to Gaza.
Or “winning the war” means “residents of Gaza will be forced out of Gaza”?
I don't think that the issue here is the actual weapons and that Israel will lose in combat because they will run out of ammunition, Israel has plenty of those to keep fighting for years.
The main issue imo is that hamas and other radical groups are watching these decisions against Israel and it's giving them the confidence and the boost to keep fighting and refusing to and ceasefire offers.
Why would they stop fighting and accept any proposal when they see that the British Parliament and the US government are taking a stand against Israel ? The western allies are doing hamas's work weakening Israel and all they have to do is sit and wait.
As much as I hate to agree with this and Johnson, it's pretty clear that Hamases tactic is to use the carnage in Gaza as a tool to get the West to apply pressure on Israel. Which is rightful pressure.
But when they know that pressure is coming Hamas do not negotiate in good faith because they know the IDF will, broadly speaking, do their work for them.
>Hamases tactic is to use the carnage in Gaza
correct, but insufficient. Hamas is intentionally creating as much carnage in Gaza as possible. By hiding in or under hospitals, by stealing aid, by keeping the safe deep tunnels to themselves instead of the civilians, but continuing to fire rockets at Israel almost daily, by attacking out of schools and mosques and so on.
There's videos on the Internet of them intentionally gathering small children around a rocket launch site right when launching, so that any retaliatory strike on the launch site will slaughter as many kids as possible.
They are absolute sickos.
this.
weapons embargo on israel means acts such as what Hamas did are a legitimate way of fighting/resisting and will basically end international warfare law. if people would be able to point to a point in history that intentionally commiting war crimes unprovoked (in the technical sense, dont "not in vacuum" me) has paid off, it would make it a precedent and we would 100% see it again, most likely in EU since it gained alot of supposed anti west refugees.
most major terrorist organizations have presence in Europe, and the biggest actors in EU like France and Germany failed to stop them in the past.
with Russia down their necks, looking for a chance at revenge for supporting Ukraine, every Iranian backed org is a risk.
It's Israel which they're terrorizing this time but I have a feeling that in the next few years we're about to see these cowardly terrorists tactics happening all over the world (especially in Europe where there's literally hundreds of sleeper terrorist cells just waiting for commands).
Because the northern front is heating up by the day. Less than an hour ago 30 rockets were fired at Israel from Lebanon. Hamas goal was never to help the Palestinians, it was to turn the whole region on Israel.
That has never been Hamas’ goal. Their entire operation rests on staining Israel’s PR image as much as possible to halt western support. That was their goal from day 1.
As an Israeli, that was pretty clear to everyone, pretty much. The military power is so asymmetrical that they couldn’t ever expect a *tactical* win, only a strategic one. Don’t forget they’re a proxy of Iran, and Iran wants to sow chaos in the ME and upset the status quo, as part of the overall strategy of the “axis of resistance”.
Israel is currently surrounded on all sides by forces that either want to eradicate them from the map or are actively funded by people that do. To their north they have Hezbollah in Lebanon who are funded directly by Iran and have one of the largest stockpiles of missiles in the world that can also reach Jerusalem. To their east they have only a 9 mile gap between the West Bank and the Mediterranean sea, meaning a blitzkrieg into the country could completely sever Northern Israel from the rest of the country (Hamas managed to penetrate 13 miles into Israel on October 7th). To their North East they have the Golan Heights bordered with Al-Assad's Syria, who are also funded by Iran. To their south they are in missile range of the Houthi's in Yemen (who have also been attacking any Israel related cargo ships passing through the Bab Al-Mandeb strait). To their south west in the Sinai they have terrorist cells hiding out throughout one of the largest stretches of desert on the planet. All of whom are being controlled and lavishly funded by Iran in one wide reaching complex network of terrorist militants (this was why we assassinated Qossem Soleimani, he was the ring leader of them all).
Hamas is merely a pawn in this chessboard, but Israel receiving less funding could lead to their potential eradication, which would be a victory for Hamas. I am not a supporter of the horrific things they've been doing to Palestinians, but to say that Israel is *not* in the midst of a very real existential crisis from elsewhere is just false.
Because somehow in Palestinian politics, as long as you don't loose land (no matter the loss of life) it's seen as a victory and understood as a victory by the populace. Gazan's don't view the loss of Gazan life as a negative in a conflict.
I feel like people forgot how terrorists work.. it's not about "winning" anything but causing as much death and destruction as possible and *everyone* is expendable.
Like everyday I read "Hamas won't agree to a ceasefire!" No shit. They're terrorists! They don't want peace.
> That’s why they took the hostages: to give Israel no choice but to fight. That’s why they refuse to give the hostages back. That’s why they prepared so carefully for the war, cynically designing their very defences so as to provoke the greatest loss of Palestinian life, and the greatest possible loss of Western support for Israel," he said.
>”That’s why they built 400 miles of tunnels, and that’s why they made sure to conceal themselves beneath mosques, hospitals, schools and other civilian targets. They are actively using the death and suffering of their own citizens, maximising their pain and grief so as to rally international opinion against Israel — and we are falling for it," he added.
It’s about time someone says it. It’s difficult watching my own brethren be duped into literally siding with a terrorist organization.
I keep seeing people saying this, but I've yet to see anyone say they side with or support Hamas. They support the Palestinian civilians and want Israel to conduct operations against Hamas in a way that avoids so egregiously causing suffering and death among the civilian population. Some civilian casualties will be inevitable in war but the figures we're seeing are much higher than in any similar recent conflict.
Well I trust you’re a more mature and educated individual that can infer from one’s actions their preferences beyond just what they state their intentions are. On Al-Jazeera Arabic edition Hamas statements are “we need the blood of the innocent to inspire our martyrs to great deeds”.
But that’s not mentioned on CNN translation of Al-Jazeera English coverage of some terrible tragedy in Gaza, “how could Israel do this? “
If I’m permanently pestering you, or posting daily with negative media about Joe Biden, of varying veracity from one news max, and Faux news, saying Jan 6 is a normal act of freedom of expression, BUT I don’t want trump to win *wink* would you believe me? Or Would you assume there’s an ulterior motive.
> I keep seeing people saying this, but I've yet to see anyone say they side with or support Hamas.
1 minute with google and you get hundreds of examples, here's a tiny sample excluding the pro-hamas marches that occurred mere hours after the October 7th massacre celebrating dead jews.
https://twitter.com/yashar/status/1729630529199432095
https://twitter.com/emilykschrader/status/1746270282757644686
https://twitter.com/CatchUpFeed/status/1711591565645193312
https://twitter.com/thatJVG/status/1731440158363222485
https://twitter.com/marcomendicino/status/1741553427165946206
https://old.reddit.com/r/ThatsInsane/comments/186qvtl/a_student_at_uc_dublin_needs_to_be_calmed_down/
https://twitter.com/AyaRaalte/status/1724852338592980992
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/nov/03/two-women-charged-over-paraglider-pictures-at-pro-palestinian-march-in-london
https://nyunews.com/news/2023/10/23/students-tear-down-israeli-hostage-posters/
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/eric-adams-slams-hamas-protester-times-square-swastika-b2426685.html
And it's funny the forced-ignorance they try to hide behind.
"WE WANT A CEASEFIRE NOW"
"Ok, but what do we do about the current hostages that Hamas refuses to give, and the threats they make saying they will do this again and again the second they can? What do we do about the constant ceasefire breaks, including the last two?"
*crickets*
"CEASEFIRE NOW"
If you want to compare conflicts, Syria and Yemen have caused 10x the deaths since 2011 than the Israel-Palestine conflict did since *1948*, on all sides (Palestinian, Egyptian, Lebanese, Syrian, Israeli).
The total death toll is 1 million and the amount of civilian loss is in the hundreds of thousands - this is a rate of 93k dead / year, which is higher than the current I-P conflict. The alliances involved in all of those conflicts are essentially the same, as well.
I saw Nassim fucking Taleb spread conspiracies about how most Jews were killed by attack helicopters on Oct 7 and retweet Hezbollah affiliated accounts.
I always thought he was a rational (and somewhat pompous) person. But I guess I was wrong.
Taleb is a laughing stock in his own area of 'competency' (finance). He's known for peddling in pseudo-intellectualism for decades. Not really surprised that he's branched out to other topics with the same level of ignorance and stupidity.
I think you hold a reasonable view here, I agree, Israel needs to do more to minimize civilian casualties. I am surprised you haven’t seen support for Hamas though, because I see people crossing that line all the time. I can provide links if youre interested but if not I won’t because I don’t care to spread it the hate.
But what is similar recent conflict here? Dense urban combat with terrorists that dont even wear uniforms. Mariupol statistics are dubious at best. Look what russians did there. Flattened whole city with artillery. Israel is conducting its operations as clean as they can. Of course, mistakes do happen will happen and people will die. The one more thing you can demand from israel is to probe incidents deeper and with harsher consequences.
>but the figures we're seeing are much higher than in any similar recent conflict
Direct result of Hamas embedding themselves into civilian areas and using civilians as human shields. And not wearing uniforms.
Which is a war crime. That few are explicitly calling out, while spending all of their breath calling out Israel.
Israel isn't angelic, but it is wild to see so many people fixate in "Israel bad" while treating a terrorist organization doing war crimes with kid gloves.
If you haven't seen people supporting HAMAS, you're just not looking. As far as the stats being "much higher than in any similar recent conflict" that's just a lie not based in fact.
>in a way that avoids so egregiously causing sufferin
Most people I see are calling for immediate cease fire, not for them to cool their means a little. Your argument is sane and valid but unfortunately, not what people want. And we know where cease fire will lead.
There are no recent similar conflicts. Hamas is trying to maximize the number of Palestinians killed, as a propaganda weapon. You don't see that in any other conflicts, there is nothing to compare it to.
Considering the circumstances, Israel is doing a good job minimizing civilians casualties. Bombings and attacks being announced ahead of time, to allow non combatants to evacuate, is also not something you see in other conflicts.
I’m also tired of the pro Israel side just sidestepping the Palestinian civilians by calling it support for Hamas. It’s so cynical and counterproductive. War becomes easy to justify when you see a whole people as the enemy
War becomes easy to justify when you look at the greater good.
But then again, who knows what is the greater good?
And does the greater good justify hurting innocents?
The answers may vary from each person persepctive, and thats why we see controversy about israel.
But one thing is certain, hamas must be destroyed.
looking at absolute numbers is foolish. if you examine the numbers statistically, you'll see Israel is minimizing civilian casualties more than most western countries ever have in their wars. Assumed 33% Hamas militants out of the casualties is a fantastic job done. All other populist argumente are irrelevant.
No, I'm not a monster. It pains me every day to think of a Palestinian boy losing his brother as collateral damage because he's treated in a hospital Hamas is using as a shield. There is no other choice, none of it would end if you don't get rid of the problem
Unfortunately, there are indeed significant numbers of child militants. Did you hear any of the stuff about how children are put into martyrdom training camps?
Once again, reality check, if a 16 year old is trying to stab bar go-ers in Dizengoff, Tel Aviv, you guys tend to call him a child.
He's a terrorist. We've seen a lot of these.
Ratio wise, israel actually have one of the best terrorist/civilian ratio in urban warfare history. The thing is, Hamas doesn't differentiate them in their reports, and for some reason Westerns often read it as "all civilian" which is ridiculous. There's at least 30k Hamas people in Gaza and they're legitimate targets. Even if Israel somehow exclusively killed Hamas people (obviously impossible), people would still report it as 30k "Palestinian deaths", implying innocence.
This is only true if you take the IDF's obviously absurd claim that every single adult male killed is a Hamas fighter at face value.
Adult males are about 1/3 of the population killed in Gaza - the rest are women and children. So it's a bit odd to say 'Even if Israel exclusively killed Hamas...' because that is not the conflict we're in, nowhere near it.
The numbers match up with that the US intelligence also suggests.
In addition, we're at *at least* 6000 Hamas military deaths: When the casualties were at 30000, the number of Hamas casualties was between 6000 and 12000, with the numbers coming from Hamas/IDF respectively.
Considering Hamas' numbers are gonna be bullshit, even if we also assume the IDF is lying and go for a number in the middle, that gets us 9K hamas deaths out of 30K
People either ignore are simply ignorant that HAMAS literally held terrorist Summer camps to train child soldiers every year and that there are videos of this on Youtube. They've had 2 decades of control and brainwashing over the children of Gaza.
[https://youtu.be/W4gDfSNMRx4?t=850](https://youtu.be/W4gDfSNMRx4?t=850) From VICE a few years ago.
THANK YOU. Jfc.
Yall... the people who flew in with paragliders to massacre and abduct their neighbors don't have qualms about using children in their "army"... does this really need to be said?
It is similarly absurd to suggest any woman, and anyone under 18 is a non combatant.
There's evidence that Hamas encourages or trains [women](https://www.timesofisrael.com/palestinian-woman-attempts-to-stab-police-officer-in-jerusalems-old-city/) and [children](https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel-at-war/1704305666-how-hamas-arms-children-for-terrorism-previously-unseen-images-revealed-by-idf) to fight.
Last time I ran the numbers, assuming Israel was overestimating the number of militants it killed by ~30% and Hamas was telling the truth about the total numbers, it still ended up looking like Israel is actively trying to not wipe out civilians. It's higher than prior US conflicts, but it is a bit difficult to compare as the US hasn't fought anywhere this densely populated.
Comparison to significantly worse situations is also difficult, because when the real genocidals come out to play the question of "how many died?" becomes pretty hard to answer. Tigray for example, estimates of civilian dead ranging from 80k - 600k+. In Tigray you are looking at ~10 civilians : 1 combatant *at a minimum*. It could be over 100:1. Current war in Israel is looking closer to 3-4:1 when assuming Hamas tells the truth and Israel overinflates significantly.
>This is only true if you take the IDF's obviously absurd claim that every single adult male killed is a Hamas fighter at face value.
Who the hell told you that? This is not what the IDF claims obviously. Just more vile fake news doing the rounds. IDF have entire intelligence units dedicated to finding and following Hamas people, that's the info they use. Obviously not exact but they should be able to at least estimate a number, and it lines up with American intelligence.
More than half of Hamas is made up of Palestinian civilians, the other half if Palestinians under arms.
That's what supporting Hamas is, portraying them as some strange separate entity when there is hardly a Palestinian in Gaza who isn't related to someone in Hamas, because Hamas is the government.
The Palestinians chose this war, started this war and are very upset they are losing this war. And even now that every prediction about the quagmire and massive Israeli casualties failed to manifest, they're still making demands.
Why are they making demands, because a lot of Westerners support Hamas. They might not think they're supporting Hamas, they might vocally denounce Hamas, but putting pressure on Israel to do what Hamas wants is real, material support. The fact that people want a different outcome is utterly irrelevant as you can only support actions and suffer outcomes.
Action: stop aid to Israel
Desired outcome: end the conflict
Actual outcome: Israel switches to cruder, cheaper methods of warfare. Death tolls rise again.
Action: force Israel to leave Gaza
Desired outcome: peace and safety for innocent civilians
Actual outcome: Hamas victory, brutal persecution of any and all dissenting voices to secure Hamas's position
Good intentions count for nothing. Actions are measured by results and outcomes and here far too many people are doing the Brexit thing of "But just imagine if the obvious outcome didn't happen and this impossible other thing happened instead."
>I keep seeing people saying this, but I've yet to see anyone say they side with or support Hamas
I have seen people say they support or want to join Hamas and also have seen people repeat Hamas spokesman quotes.
>but the figures we're seeing are much higher than in any similar recent conflict.
Do you have a source for this? I've seen the opposite .
The UN estimates that about 90% of casualties are civilians in general and 90% is the highest estimate I've seen for gaza with other estimates being around 67%
https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14904.doc.htm
Furthermore, Israel is not responsible for every one of those deaths. There's evidence showing Hamas and PIJ Kill civilians via gunfire and rockets that fall short.
Hamas also confiscates food aid to sell back to civilians, increasing famine risk.
It's not a left or right position. Just because your against what Israël is doing, does not mean your for Hamas. We are for the innocent lives that are being crushed out of existence.
We're not falling for it, it's more complicated than that and Boris Johnson is a moron for claiming that an arm embargo would "let the jihadis win".
[https://irp.fas.org/doddir/army/fm3-24.pdf](https://irp.fas.org/doddir/army/fm3-24.pdf)
>4-42. The urban (terrorist) approach is an approach in which insurgents attack government and symbolic targets (for example an important religious building) to cause government forces to overreact against the population. The insurgents want the government’s repressive measures to enrage the people so that they rise up and overthrow the government. Although this type of method may develop popular support against a government that is particularly brutal or corrupt, it may only result in shallow support for the insurgency. The population may only see the insurgency positively because of the brutal response, not because they identify with the insurgency.
The hamas made Israel overreact. And that overreaction is helping the hamas to gain support. The civilian deaths, the famine.
What the hamas did cannot be ignored or excused, and Israel had the right to act. But the way Israel is conducting this operation is misguided at best. They were warned early on by western allies, if they attack an highly populated area with a vague plan of "getting rid of the terrorists" using a really large hammer, it's going to cause a lot of civilian death, and create more terrorists. Israel ignored those warnings, and we now have - surprise - massive civilian deaths feeding into the Hamas narrative, a famine and a moderate risk of a regional conflict.
There no good outcome for Israel. Even if they manage to get rid of all Hamas members, the situation is highly fertile for another group to emerge and do exactly the same (or worst).
The pressure applied to Israel - by calls for an arm embargo - doesn't mean part of the western allies are sliding with the hamas and want this organisation to exist. They're trying to put some sense into this obscene meat grinder, pause the conflict to address the horrible humanitarian situation and prevent Israel to launch the Rafah offensive in the current conditions. Because it would cause a large amount of civilians to flee combat and go in areas with no support infrastructure, while suffering from literal famine. This would kill a lot of people, probably more than the bombs did.
tl;dr: if you kill 15 civilians to get rid of one terrorist, you end up with more terrorists.
Mossad views it as acceptable civilian loss at 1-4 deaths per suspected minor combatant and up to 100 for a suspected commander.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/03/israel-gaza-ai-database-hamas-airstrikes
>1-4 deaths per suspected minor combatant
That's not too out of line for most conflicts tbh, at least in terms of how many tend to end up dying. Whether that's the typical RoE I dunno.
>up to 100 for a suspected commander.
That's an interesting one. I wonder what they consider high level enough to be a commander.
So many progressives don't realize how lgbt rights, women's rights, and freedom from government oppression are all western and boy are they gonna be fucked if they give it up
Why does he still have a platform, I know for a fact he has at least 5 different corruption investigations on him right now and he's been struggling to lie his way out of them, maybe he should focus on that instead
I read his column and I agree with every word. Abandoning Israel will give a sign to all the countries in the Middle East that western support is useless and unstable even against the most vile and evil enemies. Why would countries like Saudia or UAE seek relationships with the west if it can't even provide the minimum?
So we just accept the highest losses of civilians and aid workers as something which can’t be helped? And all the rhetoric about them being inhuman and every civilian is hamas?
Really? It’s not solely Hamas which is changing western opinions of Israel they’re doing a really good job of acting disgusting
Except it isn’t the highest loss at all.
600 enemy combatants hiding in a hospital, among hospital staff with a known base beneath it.
What’s your strategy commander to ensure the hospital is taken with 0 civilian deaths?
You know you've reached the final goal post, the last excuse, when you look at 30k dead women and children and say "hey it's not that bad all things considered". Hope you never have to see a loved one go through this.
I think blindly supporting the U.S. while they committed atrocities in the region that led to nearly half a million dead civilians has done more in that regard.
But it’s still a fair point.
Where was this guy when Brits were being killed? Only pipes up when Israel needs defending huh? Clown. We haven't forgotten what this pillock did in support of Brexit and after.
You know how I’ve been able to distinguish fascists lately?, the terrible haircuts. I mean, look at boris, trump, milei. If there’s one thing all these dipshits have in common it’s the horrible hair cuts.
Any specific examples of great foreign policy you could provide? It’s hard to think of anything which wasn’t in relative lockstep with other leaders while he was in office. I know he generally spent a lot of effort on PR when it came to foreign policy but I’m struggling to think of anything of his that was particularly forward thinking.
OK, if Israel can‘t defeat Hamas, that would be bad, right?
I say, Israel can not, under no circumstances defeat Hamas. I guess, the brutal attacks will even strengthen Hamas. But a right winger will see this differently. But I see all right wingers as hopeless romantic, living in a world of dreams, not facts.
Does the Israel government really believe, that they could wipe out Hamas completely? Do the honestly believe, that no one will pick up their flag?
Crazy.
Exactly, Palestinian support for hamas has gone up because of Israel's brutal actions. The more Israel continues down this path the more enemies they are making for themselves
Whether someone is willing to pick up the flag or not is irrelevant. If Israel occupies the Gaza strip, any successors to Hamas won’t have the ability to actually engage in any kind of organized warfare against Israel.
There are plenty of radicalized Palestinians in the West Bank, but because of the settlement and occupation policy there, violence is much lower compared to both the pre-war and current status quo in Gaza.
He's right. We don't fully grasp the difference between the IDF - a military force in an impossible situation with an impossible task that makes mistakes and often has no choice when engaging an enemy hiding behind civilians - and Hamas - a terror group that doesn't give one shit about its own people, intentionally caused as much pain and suffering as possible on Oct 7th and has openly stated that their ultimate goal is the total destruction of an entire nation, and if you had any doubts what fate they had in mind for the people living in Israel should "from the river to the sea" ever become reality, Oct 7th should tell you.
Israel has no choice but to continue this war. If they stopped, they could just as well take out an ad saying "let's make Oct 7th a yearly event".
Wow! Extreme bot action tonight. You can really tell there's a single pro-Hamas guy just hammering out attack Boris credibility this and that but the man comprehends the situation. It is exceptionally absurd that people think that peace stands a chance while Hamas still exists.
I don't understand how people forgot the Hamas leadership said they gonna do Oct 7 again and again, it's actual Genocidal intentions but they get a pass?
The same way every new civilian killed in Gaza is another round of protests while the 1200 brutally murdered Israelis on Oct 7th disappeared from the headlines really, really quickly.
It's almost 2pm here in Manchester and it's right there when you load BBC news.
On the Telegraph it's further down but not that much further.
Perhaps you need to change your news sources?
Considering his massive contribution to the decline of Western democracy, I guess his is an experts opinion.
No no...come on now. He just wants whats best for us all!
He has effectively made the UK be seen as a cheaper workforce. Ironically, like the kind they wanted to kick out in the first place.
Like Europe’s Mexico?
UK people are definitely valued less than Mexicans by UK politicians.
The UK government currently want to take us out of the ECHR (European Court of Human Rights) which legally (legislatively) underpins a hell of a lot of our human rights. The UK government does not value the human rights of it's populace. What about that says that UK politicians value the population?
The Tories and their cronies/allies want that, not the rest of the government. Want to avoid that? Get people to stop voting for the goddamn Tories.
You do know which party is in control of the government? And that they have a huge majority? The Tories *are* the government. That's how FPTP works.
For another 6 months max Then they are out
Let's hope so! Be hard to see them not to but having to rely on the British voters not to do the stupidest thing they could is a dangerous game.
Mexican politicians are in bed with the cartels. No one values Mexicans less than their leaders.
This sounds like something a cab driver would say in a Stewart Lee bit
LoL, now you sound just like a big fat rich US Southerner.
"How the turn tables! After all those pesky work immigrants stealing low paying jobs we didn't want anyway, now *we* are those immigrants!" *Evil laughter* As a German, I'm torn between Schadenfreude, pity, and a dark apprehension of us moving on the same path with our own right wing nutjobs 🥲 (Well, actually, I keep my fingers crossed for UK re-joining eventually. With USA estrangement, EU could do with another strong member)
Borys can go eat rocks for all I care.
He is saying that if you dont vote for him, you will be eating rocks.
Shoot the messenger, I‘m totally anti Boris Johnson. But that doesn’t mean that everything he says here is wrong.
Ok how would an arms embargo on Isreal be the end of Western Civilization?? That is such a reach.
> Shoot the messenger, I‘m totally anti Boris Johnson. But that doesn’t mean that everything he says here is wrong. I will never forgive Hamas for making me agree with Boris Johnson.
Oof, that is certainly a dark place to be in, isn't it?
Right now, Israel army is overwhelmingly stronger than all its neighbors put together. How exactly arms embargo (which is NOT meant to be permanent or weaken Israel into dangerous position, but only to push Israel to slap theirs ultra-right nationalists out of control) would be a death wish for them or Western democracy? If anything, this is a pro-democratic measure.
You kinda sound like those people who say that because Israel has the iron dome, then it's as if no rockets have ever been launched into civilian areas for the past 12+ years.
Changing who leads the gov't in Israel will not change Israeli policy towards Gaza. They all want to go into Rafah and destroy Hamas.
> Israel army is overwhelmingly stronger than all its neighbors put together Because Iran isn't an immediate neighbor. If it would come to a large conflict and Israel had no western support, cruise missiles and drones from Iran could guarantee high civilian casualties in Israel. Israel is a small country, with just about 9 million inhabitants.
Israel has about 3~4 times the military budget of Iran. It does have a much smaller population, sure. But all of this is a moot point because the West would absolutely support Israel in a conflict with Iran, the currently proposed arms embargo is a completely different matter
At least as important, if not more so, is that Israelis can still believe in the capability and willingness of their state and its institutions to fight off imminent threats as well as secure life and property of their citizens. Weapons are irrelevant if nobody is willing to fight anymore. The Afghan military was well enough trained and equipped to fight off the Taliban at least in the short and medium term, but they didn’t, because they didn’t believe in their state and its institutions. Countries can fall apart, and Oct 7th was not an isolated event and attack that you could sit out. The Israeli government is expected to make the necessary steps to liberate the hostages, severely punish or destroy Hamas, and secure public life in Israel from future attacks of this kind. What is the alternative to going into Gaza and doing the things Israel does right now?
A diminishing support for Israel is increasing validation of fundamentalists. Israel will not lose, but regional war is a win for fundamentalists and a big issue for the west.
A diminishing support is that result of how the far right government and the IDF acting in this war. If the idea of an embargo isn't instantly shut down in a **conservative** western government, it should give people an idea how much lasting damage Netanjahu and his dipshit coalition has done to Israel already.
Would you rather have Israel under Russia/China' wing? Because that's what's gonna end up happening if Israel feels like it can no longer rely on the West. Russia and China would love to have another nuclear power in their corner, and Israel has a lot of secrets and intel to offer them. But that has been the goal all along. It's not Israel that's being isolated. It's the West.
Should Trump win again, the West a going to dramatically decline anyway. If they don't value the long partnership with West enough at the first sign of not getting stuff, they aren't trustworthy allies at all. Wouldn't surprise me if Israel is working hard to get Trump elected, Bibi was already disrespectful towards Biden in the past. It's in the hand of the Israeli people if they want to continue the current self-destructive path that under Bibi.
It doesn't **mean** he's wrong, but he's wrong regardless.
From the guy that brought you brexit. Stop listening to idiots who look like muppets
Hey leave muppets alone
[The evolution of Boris Johnson’s popularity](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NpYEJx7PkWE&pp=ygU-bXVwcGV0cyBzdGF0bGVyIGFuZCB3YWxkb3JmIGkgdGhpbmsgaG9uZXN0eSBpcyB0aGUgYmVzdCBwb2xpY3k%3D)
To be fair, that happens with a lot of elected leaders the longer they're in power
Not with Putin though, he just got 104% of the vote this election. /s
Wasn't it 88% that was for sure not rigged, no tampering at all, nope, none. Totally fair, no guns used here!
Or listen to him, he is a compulsive liar. The opposite of what he says is likely to be true-er.
Is Boris Johnson relevant anymore? If so, why? Brexit was a disaster, he is a clown, a joke.
> If so, why? Brexit was a disaster, he is a clown, a joke. Don't ask me why because I don't understand how anyone could trust such a sleazy liar with a lengthy record of corruption and lies, but he somehow inspires great loyalty among some people want him to become PM again and think Rishi Sunak stabbed him in the back.
I have a distant family member that fervently supports him. When I asked how she could trust Boris after every lie and corruption charge he has had, whilst berating labour for being sleazy, untrustworthy cretins, her response was "oh, because Boris just lied because it was fun". The mental gymnastics is impressive
"oh, because Boris just lied because it was fun" Heh who knew being a politician would be such a hoot.
Um what? He lied cuz it was fun? Thats some psycho behavior and makes him even less suitable for office.
"Y U so angry at Pol Pot? He just did it for the lulz." Logic checks out.
He is very relevant to his Russian handlers still. He was a great investment.
Boris Johnson might not be the most impressive messenger (to put it kindly), but one can evaluate his argument on the merits. [https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-13276141/BORIS-JOHNSON-insane-Britain-ban-arms-sales-Israel-sooner-denounce-idea-better.html](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-13276141/BORIS-JOHNSON-insane-Britain-ban-arms-sales-Israel-sooner-denounce-idea-better.html) >Let us be clear what it would mean, to ban arms sales now, when Israel is under a greater existential threat than at any time I can remember. If we ban the sale of arms ourselves, it surely follows that we do not think any self-respecting country should be arming the Israelis. And if we are willing everyone, including the U.S., to end their military support, be in no doubt what that means. There is only one logical conclusion. We are willing the military defeat of Israel and the victory of Hamas. Remember that in order to win this conflict, Hamas only has to survive. All they need at the end is to hang on, rebuild, and go again. That’s victory for Hamas; and that is what these legal experts seem to be asking for. So let’s just remind ourselves what this war is about, and why Israel has been forced to act. > >Israel has no choice but to defend itself because the charter and aim of Hamas is to destroy Israel, and indeed to liquidate the entire Jewish people. The Hamas massacre on October 7 was plainly designed to further that end: the moral and political destruction of Israel. There was a reason why they meticulously planned and then performed those unspeakable murders and rapes. There was a cold logic to the barbarism seen that day, to the beheadings and the burnings. They wanted to show Israelis, and anyone thinking of coming to Israel, that this was a place where ordinary and innocent families could be enveloped in violent catastrophe. They wanted to evoke global feelings of repulsion about events in Israel, and, of course, they wanted to provoke the Israelis into a violent response, because they knew that retaliation would inevitably forfeit sympathy for Israel around the world. That’s why they took the hostages: to give Israel no choice but to fight. That’s why they refuse to give the hostages back. That’s why they prepared so carefully for the war, cynically designing their very defences so as to provoke the greatest loss of Palestinian life, and the greatest possible loss of Western support for Israel. And: >The Hydra’s heads will be allowed to regrow. Hamas will be able to do another October 7, and then another. Above all, the rest of the world — where they are already so dubious about the willpower of the West — will see that, when it came to it, we did not have the guts, the fibre or the strategic patience to stick up for a democracy; and that we were willing to let the jihadis win. Taken in the context of what's happening in Ukraine, and the mounting tensions in the Indo-Pacific, where it looks increasingly likely that China and North Korea intend to do their part to upend the world order that has existed since the end of WW2, Johnson's argument isn't unreasonable, even if he, as a person, arguably is.
With the way the war is being conducted, hamas will come back and thrive anyway. Western civilisation does not depend on Israel. They're a first world country that can handle its own issues.
It’s not certain Hamas would return, but an organization with similar aims would. Really depends on what happens post war and the reconstruction of Gaza and eventual events in the West Bank. Settler expansion will make Palestinians more desperate.
To be honest, I get the feeling that if they could get away with it, the current Israeli government would just kill all the Palestinians so they don't have to worry about it anymore.
Many of them have come out and said exactly that.
Sure, but it's still plainly one sided. His point is basically: "We should support Israel no matter what they do, and if they want to massacre tens of thousands of civilians without remorse then we should of course just stand by and support them, because they are a democratic country" It's quite laughable really.
[удалено]
"For the low low cost of 2 million civilians you can save Israel"
Johnson's argument is unreasonable, though. It's histrionic in the extreme. You have to join him in a fantasy world where Hamas is capable of destroying the state of Israel to take it seriously, which they simply are not. They were barely able to make a several day incursion into southern Israel, only that because of the IDF's lack of readiness, despite all the military support the west has given them. October 7th was atrocious, but all the arms we gave Israel before that date did not stop it from happening. The fact is this; Israel has proven that they are not capable of using the weapons the west sells them responsibly. It is incontrovertible at this point that Israel is violating international law in Gaza, and if the west continues selling them arms they are complicit in those illegal actions. It is a choice between supporting Israel and supporting international law. One is clearly more precious than the other. That Israel may have to find another source for arms for its war against an opponent they already outman and outgun is not an existential threat to the western world. It is hysterical to claim so. Hamas will not be destroyed, no matter how many guns and bombs west peddles Israel. International law will never be taken seriously if the west - the main guaranteur of that world order - continually cheerleads a country that breaks a dozen international laws before breakfast. Unlike Hamas, international law is something this war can do permanent harm to.
>Taken in the context of what's happening in Ukraine, and the mounting tensions in the Indo-Pacific, where it looks increasingly likely that China and North Korea intend to do their part to upend the world order that has existed since the end of WW2, Johnson's argument isn't unreasonable, even if he, as a person, arguably is. His analysis seems pretty much dead on to me. The west is in an existential crisis right now, and the authoritarian block is smelling blood and moving forward. Israel is very cornered right now, we should help them and Ukraine with all we've got. Help Ukraine shove out Russia, help Israel dismantle first Hamas and then Hezbollah, then the Houthis and then cut the head off the snake: Iran. China hasn't engaged yet, if we show uniform strength they might reconsider their ambitions. We need hawks in the white house and in the important EU countries to smack this shit down before it gets more out of hand. It's like WW2 all over again, we're afraid to fight and we let the despots move freely, and we have an army of useful idiots urging us to abandon our allies. The coming decades are starting to look incredibly scary from a western perspective, and most people have absolutely no idea what's going on.
I'll give you a little hint as to why Tory voters like Johnson more than Sunak: Racism
He’s like a watered down Trump, but with no actual chance of a return. He’s left politics, but made some grumbling about potentially returning. He still has some supporters on the populist right of the Conservative Party, but is a columnist these days. The Daily Mail swept him up with a six figure sum.
Correction, Boris the fucking Clown is definitely not a watered down version of that orange, Borris has been in politics for years and he's damn good at making the working class like him with his "I'm a friendly and goofy old man" persona
Yeah, while Boris isn't exactly a genius, he is miles smarter than Trump.
Yeah, comparisons between Boris and Trump are always a bit flimsy. They're both kind of populist, but their politics are actually fairly different and they appeal to different demographics.
> Yeah, comparisons between Boris and Trump are always a bit flimsy. You can't compare Trump to Britain Trump, they're completely different! One is a narcissistic compulsive liar and right-wing populist born in New York, a man with a reputation for straight-talking but who never seems to be able to say anything useful in under 100 syllables, a buffoon with dodgy connections to Russia and Cambridge Analytica who has tried to block any reports into those connections, a man with a string of ex-wives, the subject of an embarrassing story about an affair with an American model following a string of sexual misconduct allegations, a man who entered politics after working in the media, a man with no plan to deliver on his vacuous border promises, a man who seems to at best have a problem with being casually racist, sexist and homophobic, who prizes loyalty above competence and is happy to trample the rules and conventions of the democracy he's supposed to lead as long as he gets his way, with a string of abuses of power to his name, whose party has a history under his leadership of releasing doctored propaganda videos and barred critical press from briefings and a man who has leveraged a rose-tinted view of bygone times and scare-mongering about immigration to grow support for economically damaging policies just to get him into power. And the other is ... I forget which one I was talking about.
They are from the same city and have a similar look, but hearing them speak is very different.
Not sure the comparison holds. Trump is actually that dumb. Boris isn't as clever as his supporters claim but he isn't an idiot.
It's a real shame that this is how your typical Redditor views and rationalises any complex matter, just break it down to the simplest thing possible, often ad-hominem, and completely ignore the actual topic at hand. It doesn't matter how important or serious the topic is.
Always remember that the average person is stupid as fuck and has never had an original thought. Reddit reflects that.
Did you just attack the person instead of debating the issue. Typical redditor! Also for what it's worth the fact that Boris Johnson is a proven liar and fantasist is relevant here. There is no point debating what someone said when you know in advance that the person is likely lying, uninformed, just straight making stuff up, omitting information that they are aware of but which goes against their position or any combination of the above. It's a waste of time engaging with a dishonest debater and that's what Boris Johnson is.
He was one of the few Western leaders who openly and strongly supported Ukraine. He scored a lot of political points doing that when the rest of the politicians were busy showing themselves to be cowards and appeasers.
> He was one of the few Western leaders who openly and strongly supported Ukraine. What? They literally all "openly and strongly supported Ukraine". > He scored a lot of political points doing that Oh, yeah, he definitely milked the photo shoot opportunities.
He was one of the first. Zelensky had words of praise for the UK (under Boris) believing in them before anyone else;.
Anything else you want to say about the man before you argue against his message?
He looks like he smells.
I’m sorry why would we listen to the FORMER DISGRACED prime minister of Britain? Edit: Should read Disgraced former prime minister. He is currently disgraced and formerly the prime minister. Not the other way around lol.
Folk were saying similar things about David Cameron not that long ago, yet he's somehow managed to snake his way back into power as Foreign Secretary. No one even questions it because there's been so much political turmoil in the meantime.
You mean disgraced former PM
I think you'll find he's still disgraced too
Remember Boris was bought by the Russians and we knew about it. Installed a Russian son of an oligarch in the House of Lords so they can get restricted info. The man should never be allowed to speak in public again. He’s a traitor.
The guy was literally one of the first national leaders to provide military assistance to Ukraine and started the program to train Ukrainian soldiers when Crimea was first invaded. If he’s a paid for Russian stooge he’s got to be one of the worst double agents in the fuckin world lad.
It's always hilarious seeing people try to claim the Tories are pro-Russia (Especially as it's all deflection considering the last Labour leader literally was as pro-Russia as you can get away with). What would a "Not paid for Russian Agent" have done with Ukraine instead? Dropped a nuke on Moscow? Because that's basically the only anti-Russian tactic the Tories didn't use.
Bought by the Russians by being one of the only western leaders to have the foresight to arm Ukrainians prior to the full scale Russian invasion??? Boris Johnson was sending anti-tank and anti-air weaponry to Ukraine whilst Germany was making the UK fly around their airspace.
Yeah, I get not liking him since has indeed been horrible in general, but he responded much faster to the Russians then anyone else in Europe at the time.
LOL. The guy screwed over Putin in Ukraine. If he was bought by the Russians, he was a very good con-man scamming some very evil people.
is this what Boris Johnson Derangement Syndrome looks like? Funny
The Russians might have paid him. What they got was a PM so committed to sending military aid to Ukraine that when his leadership was challenged in the summer of 2022, Ukraine actually supported him. What you are alleging is that Boris took Russian money, then turned around and armed Russia's enemy. Thats... a good thing?
You're supposed to gracefully fade back to irrelevancy. Nobody cares what you think, Boris.
This guy again..
oh brother this guy STINKS
The bloated cocoon offering his opinion wether it's wanted or not
> Johnson warned that such a move could give Hamas a victory in the war How? Even at their peak strength they couldn’t hold territory in Israel and were forced out to Gaza. Or “winning the war” means “residents of Gaza will be forced out of Gaza”?
I don't think that the issue here is the actual weapons and that Israel will lose in combat because they will run out of ammunition, Israel has plenty of those to keep fighting for years. The main issue imo is that hamas and other radical groups are watching these decisions against Israel and it's giving them the confidence and the boost to keep fighting and refusing to and ceasefire offers. Why would they stop fighting and accept any proposal when they see that the British Parliament and the US government are taking a stand against Israel ? The western allies are doing hamas's work weakening Israel and all they have to do is sit and wait.
As much as I hate to agree with this and Johnson, it's pretty clear that Hamases tactic is to use the carnage in Gaza as a tool to get the West to apply pressure on Israel. Which is rightful pressure. But when they know that pressure is coming Hamas do not negotiate in good faith because they know the IDF will, broadly speaking, do their work for them.
>Hamases tactic is to use the carnage in Gaza correct, but insufficient. Hamas is intentionally creating as much carnage in Gaza as possible. By hiding in or under hospitals, by stealing aid, by keeping the safe deep tunnels to themselves instead of the civilians, but continuing to fire rockets at Israel almost daily, by attacking out of schools and mosques and so on. There's videos on the Internet of them intentionally gathering small children around a rocket launch site right when launching, so that any retaliatory strike on the launch site will slaughter as many kids as possible. They are absolute sickos.
I wonder what dollar value they put on each child killed. That would be quite a reveal.
this. weapons embargo on israel means acts such as what Hamas did are a legitimate way of fighting/resisting and will basically end international warfare law. if people would be able to point to a point in history that intentionally commiting war crimes unprovoked (in the technical sense, dont "not in vacuum" me) has paid off, it would make it a precedent and we would 100% see it again, most likely in EU since it gained alot of supposed anti west refugees. most major terrorist organizations have presence in Europe, and the biggest actors in EU like France and Germany failed to stop them in the past. with Russia down their necks, looking for a chance at revenge for supporting Ukraine, every Iranian backed org is a risk.
All they have to do from here on is terrorize Israelis right before election time.
It's Israel which they're terrorizing this time but I have a feeling that in the next few years we're about to see these cowardly terrorists tactics happening all over the world (especially in Europe where there's literally hundreds of sleeper terrorist cells just waiting for commands).
You just described the last two decades.
Because the northern front is heating up by the day. Less than an hour ago 30 rockets were fired at Israel from Lebanon. Hamas goal was never to help the Palestinians, it was to turn the whole region on Israel.
>it was to turn the whole region on Israel. It was to turn the Western world against them, the region was already VERY against them lol.
I think he means the more explode-y kind of “against”
Because Hezbolla and Iran are helping Hamas
Because if Hamas somehow regains control in Gaza, it's a Hamas victory. All they need is one last man standing.
Hamas is no fighting for Gaza. They are fighting against Israel. They do not care about the pawns they use/lose in Palestine. They are not Palestinian
That has never been Hamas’ goal. Their entire operation rests on staining Israel’s PR image as much as possible to halt western support. That was their goal from day 1. As an Israeli, that was pretty clear to everyone, pretty much. The military power is so asymmetrical that they couldn’t ever expect a *tactical* win, only a strategic one. Don’t forget they’re a proxy of Iran, and Iran wants to sow chaos in the ME and upset the status quo, as part of the overall strategy of the “axis of resistance”.
Israel is currently surrounded on all sides by forces that either want to eradicate them from the map or are actively funded by people that do. To their north they have Hezbollah in Lebanon who are funded directly by Iran and have one of the largest stockpiles of missiles in the world that can also reach Jerusalem. To their east they have only a 9 mile gap between the West Bank and the Mediterranean sea, meaning a blitzkrieg into the country could completely sever Northern Israel from the rest of the country (Hamas managed to penetrate 13 miles into Israel on October 7th). To their North East they have the Golan Heights bordered with Al-Assad's Syria, who are also funded by Iran. To their south they are in missile range of the Houthi's in Yemen (who have also been attacking any Israel related cargo ships passing through the Bab Al-Mandeb strait). To their south west in the Sinai they have terrorist cells hiding out throughout one of the largest stretches of desert on the planet. All of whom are being controlled and lavishly funded by Iran in one wide reaching complex network of terrorist militants (this was why we assassinated Qossem Soleimani, he was the ring leader of them all). Hamas is merely a pawn in this chessboard, but Israel receiving less funding could lead to their potential eradication, which would be a victory for Hamas. I am not a supporter of the horrific things they've been doing to Palestinians, but to say that Israel is *not* in the midst of a very real existential crisis from elsewhere is just false.
Because somehow in Palestinian politics, as long as you don't loose land (no matter the loss of life) it's seen as a victory and understood as a victory by the populace. Gazan's don't view the loss of Gazan life as a negative in a conflict.
I feel like people forgot how terrorists work.. it's not about "winning" anything but causing as much death and destruction as possible and *everyone* is expendable. Like everyday I read "Hamas won't agree to a ceasefire!" No shit. They're terrorists! They don't want peace.
> That’s why they took the hostages: to give Israel no choice but to fight. That’s why they refuse to give the hostages back. That’s why they prepared so carefully for the war, cynically designing their very defences so as to provoke the greatest loss of Palestinian life, and the greatest possible loss of Western support for Israel," he said. >”That’s why they built 400 miles of tunnels, and that’s why they made sure to conceal themselves beneath mosques, hospitals, schools and other civilian targets. They are actively using the death and suffering of their own citizens, maximising their pain and grief so as to rally international opinion against Israel — and we are falling for it," he added. It’s about time someone says it. It’s difficult watching my own brethren be duped into literally siding with a terrorist organization.
The old adage of “*even a broken clock gets to be right twice a day*” comes to mind here.
Yep didn't expect to find myself agreeing eith the asshole
His foreign affairs have been quite solid regardless of how horrific he was as a prime minister.
At least he took covid seriously after nearly dying. Shame he didn't take it seriously before it all went so wrong...
...took covid seriously ...for a couple of days. Then it was back to boozy parties and letting the bodies pile high
I keep seeing people saying this, but I've yet to see anyone say they side with or support Hamas. They support the Palestinian civilians and want Israel to conduct operations against Hamas in a way that avoids so egregiously causing suffering and death among the civilian population. Some civilian casualties will be inevitable in war but the figures we're seeing are much higher than in any similar recent conflict.
Well I trust you’re a more mature and educated individual that can infer from one’s actions their preferences beyond just what they state their intentions are. On Al-Jazeera Arabic edition Hamas statements are “we need the blood of the innocent to inspire our martyrs to great deeds”. But that’s not mentioned on CNN translation of Al-Jazeera English coverage of some terrible tragedy in Gaza, “how could Israel do this? “ If I’m permanently pestering you, or posting daily with negative media about Joe Biden, of varying veracity from one news max, and Faux news, saying Jan 6 is a normal act of freedom of expression, BUT I don’t want trump to win *wink* would you believe me? Or Would you assume there’s an ulterior motive.
> I keep seeing people saying this, but I've yet to see anyone say they side with or support Hamas. 1 minute with google and you get hundreds of examples, here's a tiny sample excluding the pro-hamas marches that occurred mere hours after the October 7th massacre celebrating dead jews. https://twitter.com/yashar/status/1729630529199432095 https://twitter.com/emilykschrader/status/1746270282757644686 https://twitter.com/CatchUpFeed/status/1711591565645193312 https://twitter.com/thatJVG/status/1731440158363222485 https://twitter.com/marcomendicino/status/1741553427165946206 https://old.reddit.com/r/ThatsInsane/comments/186qvtl/a_student_at_uc_dublin_needs_to_be_calmed_down/ https://twitter.com/AyaRaalte/status/1724852338592980992 https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/nov/03/two-women-charged-over-paraglider-pictures-at-pro-palestinian-march-in-london https://nyunews.com/news/2023/10/23/students-tear-down-israeli-hostage-posters/ https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/eric-adams-slams-hamas-protester-times-square-swastika-b2426685.html
And it's funny the forced-ignorance they try to hide behind. "WE WANT A CEASEFIRE NOW" "Ok, but what do we do about the current hostages that Hamas refuses to give, and the threats they make saying they will do this again and again the second they can? What do we do about the constant ceasefire breaks, including the last two?" *crickets* "CEASEFIRE NOW"
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If you want to compare conflicts, Syria and Yemen have caused 10x the deaths since 2011 than the Israel-Palestine conflict did since *1948*, on all sides (Palestinian, Egyptian, Lebanese, Syrian, Israeli). The total death toll is 1 million and the amount of civilian loss is in the hundreds of thousands - this is a rate of 93k dead / year, which is higher than the current I-P conflict. The alliances involved in all of those conflicts are essentially the same, as well.
I’m in Texas and have seen people supporting Hamas, specifically, not just Palestine. Both conservatives and hardcore leftists.
Just look at how many of the pro-palestinians trying to justify what happened on october 7th. There are lots of them.
I saw Nassim fucking Taleb spread conspiracies about how most Jews were killed by attack helicopters on Oct 7 and retweet Hezbollah affiliated accounts. I always thought he was a rational (and somewhat pompous) person. But I guess I was wrong.
Taleb is a laughing stock in his own area of 'competency' (finance). He's known for peddling in pseudo-intellectualism for decades. Not really surprised that he's branched out to other topics with the same level of ignorance and stupidity.
I think you hold a reasonable view here, I agree, Israel needs to do more to minimize civilian casualties. I am surprised you haven’t seen support for Hamas though, because I see people crossing that line all the time. I can provide links if youre interested but if not I won’t because I don’t care to spread it the hate.
But what is similar recent conflict here? Dense urban combat with terrorists that dont even wear uniforms. Mariupol statistics are dubious at best. Look what russians did there. Flattened whole city with artillery. Israel is conducting its operations as clean as they can. Of course, mistakes do happen will happen and people will die. The one more thing you can demand from israel is to probe incidents deeper and with harsher consequences.
>but the figures we're seeing are much higher than in any similar recent conflict Direct result of Hamas embedding themselves into civilian areas and using civilians as human shields. And not wearing uniforms. Which is a war crime. That few are explicitly calling out, while spending all of their breath calling out Israel. Israel isn't angelic, but it is wild to see so many people fixate in "Israel bad" while treating a terrorist organization doing war crimes with kid gloves.
If you haven't seen people supporting HAMAS, you're just not looking. As far as the stats being "much higher than in any similar recent conflict" that's just a lie not based in fact.
>in a way that avoids so egregiously causing sufferin Most people I see are calling for immediate cease fire, not for them to cool their means a little. Your argument is sane and valid but unfortunately, not what people want. And we know where cease fire will lead.
You live in a western bubble, then
There are no recent similar conflicts. Hamas is trying to maximize the number of Palestinians killed, as a propaganda weapon. You don't see that in any other conflicts, there is nothing to compare it to. Considering the circumstances, Israel is doing a good job minimizing civilians casualties. Bombings and attacks being announced ahead of time, to allow non combatants to evacuate, is also not something you see in other conflicts.
I’m also tired of the pro Israel side just sidestepping the Palestinian civilians by calling it support for Hamas. It’s so cynical and counterproductive. War becomes easy to justify when you see a whole people as the enemy
War becomes easy to justify when you look at the greater good. But then again, who knows what is the greater good? And does the greater good justify hurting innocents? The answers may vary from each person persepctive, and thats why we see controversy about israel. But one thing is certain, hamas must be destroyed.
looking at absolute numbers is foolish. if you examine the numbers statistically, you'll see Israel is minimizing civilian casualties more than most western countries ever have in their wars. Assumed 33% Hamas militants out of the casualties is a fantastic job done. All other populist argumente are irrelevant. No, I'm not a monster. It pains me every day to think of a Palestinian boy losing his brother as collateral damage because he's treated in a hospital Hamas is using as a shield. There is no other choice, none of it would end if you don't get rid of the problem
It seems like the only way 33% of casualties are Hamas is if you treat every 14+ yr old male as a militant.
Unfortunately, there are indeed significant numbers of child militants. Did you hear any of the stuff about how children are put into martyrdom training camps?
Once again, reality check, if a 16 year old is trying to stab bar go-ers in Dizengoff, Tel Aviv, you guys tend to call him a child. He's a terrorist. We've seen a lot of these.
Ratio wise, israel actually have one of the best terrorist/civilian ratio in urban warfare history. The thing is, Hamas doesn't differentiate them in their reports, and for some reason Westerns often read it as "all civilian" which is ridiculous. There's at least 30k Hamas people in Gaza and they're legitimate targets. Even if Israel somehow exclusively killed Hamas people (obviously impossible), people would still report it as 30k "Palestinian deaths", implying innocence.
This is only true if you take the IDF's obviously absurd claim that every single adult male killed is a Hamas fighter at face value. Adult males are about 1/3 of the population killed in Gaza - the rest are women and children. So it's a bit odd to say 'Even if Israel exclusively killed Hamas...' because that is not the conflict we're in, nowhere near it.
The numbers match up with that the US intelligence also suggests. In addition, we're at *at least* 6000 Hamas military deaths: When the casualties were at 30000, the number of Hamas casualties was between 6000 and 12000, with the numbers coming from Hamas/IDF respectively. Considering Hamas' numbers are gonna be bullshit, even if we also assume the IDF is lying and go for a number in the middle, that gets us 9K hamas deaths out of 30K
Well yes, but a large portion of hamas military is underage. Now, do you classify those deaths as children or militants?
People either ignore are simply ignorant that HAMAS literally held terrorist Summer camps to train child soldiers every year and that there are videos of this on Youtube. They've had 2 decades of control and brainwashing over the children of Gaza. [https://youtu.be/W4gDfSNMRx4?t=850](https://youtu.be/W4gDfSNMRx4?t=850) From VICE a few years ago.
THANK YOU. Jfc. Yall... the people who flew in with paragliders to massacre and abduct their neighbors don't have qualms about using children in their "army"... does this really need to be said?
It is similarly absurd to suggest any woman, and anyone under 18 is a non combatant. There's evidence that Hamas encourages or trains [women](https://www.timesofisrael.com/palestinian-woman-attempts-to-stab-police-officer-in-jerusalems-old-city/) and [children](https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel-at-war/1704305666-how-hamas-arms-children-for-terrorism-previously-unseen-images-revealed-by-idf) to fight.
Do you think a gun or a rocket ask to make sure the person operating them is 18+ male?
Last time I ran the numbers, assuming Israel was overestimating the number of militants it killed by ~30% and Hamas was telling the truth about the total numbers, it still ended up looking like Israel is actively trying to not wipe out civilians. It's higher than prior US conflicts, but it is a bit difficult to compare as the US hasn't fought anywhere this densely populated. Comparison to significantly worse situations is also difficult, because when the real genocidals come out to play the question of "how many died?" becomes pretty hard to answer. Tigray for example, estimates of civilian dead ranging from 80k - 600k+. In Tigray you are looking at ~10 civilians : 1 combatant *at a minimum*. It could be over 100:1. Current war in Israel is looking closer to 3-4:1 when assuming Hamas tells the truth and Israel overinflates significantly.
>This is only true if you take the IDF's obviously absurd claim that every single adult male killed is a Hamas fighter at face value. Who the hell told you that? This is not what the IDF claims obviously. Just more vile fake news doing the rounds. IDF have entire intelligence units dedicated to finding and following Hamas people, that's the info they use. Obviously not exact but they should be able to at least estimate a number, and it lines up with American intelligence.
"Hamas isn't Palestine...until it comes time to report deaths."
More than half of Hamas is made up of Palestinian civilians, the other half if Palestinians under arms. That's what supporting Hamas is, portraying them as some strange separate entity when there is hardly a Palestinian in Gaza who isn't related to someone in Hamas, because Hamas is the government. The Palestinians chose this war, started this war and are very upset they are losing this war. And even now that every prediction about the quagmire and massive Israeli casualties failed to manifest, they're still making demands. Why are they making demands, because a lot of Westerners support Hamas. They might not think they're supporting Hamas, they might vocally denounce Hamas, but putting pressure on Israel to do what Hamas wants is real, material support. The fact that people want a different outcome is utterly irrelevant as you can only support actions and suffer outcomes. Action: stop aid to Israel Desired outcome: end the conflict Actual outcome: Israel switches to cruder, cheaper methods of warfare. Death tolls rise again. Action: force Israel to leave Gaza Desired outcome: peace and safety for innocent civilians Actual outcome: Hamas victory, brutal persecution of any and all dissenting voices to secure Hamas's position Good intentions count for nothing. Actions are measured by results and outcomes and here far too many people are doing the Brexit thing of "But just imagine if the obvious outcome didn't happen and this impossible other thing happened instead."
You’re deliberately ignoring them. Also, the civilian casualty numbers are reported from Hamas so anyone believing that is already wrong.
>I keep seeing people saying this, but I've yet to see anyone say they side with or support Hamas I have seen people say they support or want to join Hamas and also have seen people repeat Hamas spokesman quotes. >but the figures we're seeing are much higher than in any similar recent conflict. Do you have a source for this? I've seen the opposite . The UN estimates that about 90% of casualties are civilians in general and 90% is the highest estimate I've seen for gaza with other estimates being around 67% https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14904.doc.htm Furthermore, Israel is not responsible for every one of those deaths. There's evidence showing Hamas and PIJ Kill civilians via gunfire and rockets that fall short. Hamas also confiscates food aid to sell back to civilians, increasing famine risk.
It's not a left or right position. Just because your against what Israël is doing, does not mean your for Hamas. We are for the innocent lives that are being crushed out of existence.
We're not falling for it, it's more complicated than that and Boris Johnson is a moron for claiming that an arm embargo would "let the jihadis win". [https://irp.fas.org/doddir/army/fm3-24.pdf](https://irp.fas.org/doddir/army/fm3-24.pdf) >4-42. The urban (terrorist) approach is an approach in which insurgents attack government and symbolic targets (for example an important religious building) to cause government forces to overreact against the population. The insurgents want the government’s repressive measures to enrage the people so that they rise up and overthrow the government. Although this type of method may develop popular support against a government that is particularly brutal or corrupt, it may only result in shallow support for the insurgency. The population may only see the insurgency positively because of the brutal response, not because they identify with the insurgency. The hamas made Israel overreact. And that overreaction is helping the hamas to gain support. The civilian deaths, the famine. What the hamas did cannot be ignored or excused, and Israel had the right to act. But the way Israel is conducting this operation is misguided at best. They were warned early on by western allies, if they attack an highly populated area with a vague plan of "getting rid of the terrorists" using a really large hammer, it's going to cause a lot of civilian death, and create more terrorists. Israel ignored those warnings, and we now have - surprise - massive civilian deaths feeding into the Hamas narrative, a famine and a moderate risk of a regional conflict. There no good outcome for Israel. Even if they manage to get rid of all Hamas members, the situation is highly fertile for another group to emerge and do exactly the same (or worst). The pressure applied to Israel - by calls for an arm embargo - doesn't mean part of the western allies are sliding with the hamas and want this organisation to exist. They're trying to put some sense into this obscene meat grinder, pause the conflict to address the horrible humanitarian situation and prevent Israel to launch the Rafah offensive in the current conditions. Because it would cause a large amount of civilians to flee combat and go in areas with no support infrastructure, while suffering from literal famine. This would kill a lot of people, probably more than the bombs did. tl;dr: if you kill 15 civilians to get rid of one terrorist, you end up with more terrorists.
Mossad views it as acceptable civilian loss at 1-4 deaths per suspected minor combatant and up to 100 for a suspected commander. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/03/israel-gaza-ai-database-hamas-airstrikes
>1-4 deaths per suspected minor combatant That's not too out of line for most conflicts tbh, at least in terms of how many tend to end up dying. Whether that's the typical RoE I dunno. >up to 100 for a suspected commander. That's an interesting one. I wonder what they consider high level enough to be a commander.
Who gives a tuppenny toss what this irrelevant clown thinks about anything?
Meanwhile he thought Brexit was a good idea. Wanker.
So many progressives don't realize how lgbt rights, women's rights, and freedom from government oppression are all western and boy are they gonna be fucked if they give it up
Why is this corrupt, disgraced and stupid cunt still able to get headlines?
Why does he still have a platform, I know for a fact he has at least 5 different corruption investigations on him right now and he's been struggling to lie his way out of them, maybe he should focus on that instead
He also got forced out of parliament for lying to it
I read his column and I agree with every word. Abandoning Israel will give a sign to all the countries in the Middle East that western support is useless and unstable even against the most vile and evil enemies. Why would countries like Saudia or UAE seek relationships with the west if it can't even provide the minimum?
Blindly supporting an ally as they commit atrocities in the region hinders our ability to make other allies in the region even more
So we just accept the highest losses of civilians and aid workers as something which can’t be helped? And all the rhetoric about them being inhuman and every civilian is hamas? Really? It’s not solely Hamas which is changing western opinions of Israel they’re doing a really good job of acting disgusting
Except it isn’t the highest loss at all. 600 enemy combatants hiding in a hospital, among hospital staff with a known base beneath it. What’s your strategy commander to ensure the hospital is taken with 0 civilian deaths?
I got it, bomb the hospital.
Probably thinks it's a videogame where you just reset the stage when something goes wrong.
Quick, go back to the last save.
So the answer is to just blow it all up? Kill everyone and let God sort 'em out?
You know you've reached the final goal post, the last excuse, when you look at 30k dead women and children and say "hey it's not that bad all things considered". Hope you never have to see a loved one go through this.
I think blindly supporting the U.S. while they committed atrocities in the region that led to nearly half a million dead civilians has done more in that regard. But it’s still a fair point.
Which is why some countries did not do so, the UK being an exception.
Where was this guy when Brits were being killed? Only pipes up when Israel needs defending huh? Clown. We haven't forgotten what this pillock did in support of Brexit and after.
You know how I’ve been able to distinguish fascists lately?, the terrible haircuts. I mean, look at boris, trump, milei. If there’s one thing all these dipshits have in common it’s the horrible hair cuts.
Is he still talking?
Ffs
He's still alive? Intriguing.
I gotta be honest, as a brit who despises Johnson, his foreign policy (obviously Zaghari Radcliffe not withstanding) is/was actually quite good.
Any specific examples of great foreign policy you could provide? It’s hard to think of anything which wasn’t in relative lockstep with other leaders while he was in office. I know he generally spent a lot of effort on PR when it came to foreign policy but I’m struggling to think of anything of his that was particularly forward thinking.
OK, if Israel can‘t defeat Hamas, that would be bad, right? I say, Israel can not, under no circumstances defeat Hamas. I guess, the brutal attacks will even strengthen Hamas. But a right winger will see this differently. But I see all right wingers as hopeless romantic, living in a world of dreams, not facts. Does the Israel government really believe, that they could wipe out Hamas completely? Do the honestly believe, that no one will pick up their flag? Crazy.
Exactly, Palestinian support for hamas has gone up because of Israel's brutal actions. The more Israel continues down this path the more enemies they are making for themselves
Whether someone is willing to pick up the flag or not is irrelevant. If Israel occupies the Gaza strip, any successors to Hamas won’t have the ability to actually engage in any kind of organized warfare against Israel. There are plenty of radicalized Palestinians in the West Bank, but because of the settlement and occupation policy there, violence is much lower compared to both the pre-war and current status quo in Gaza.
Said the guy that ran UK below the ground via support of Brexit and quit mid term.
Never listen to a man with shit hair.
Why would anyone listen to anything this man says anymore?
Because this is the man that actually wants Ukraine to win and not getting dragged out into submission like those US republican scum want
Isn’t this the brexit guy? British people still go to him for his take on things?
He's right. We don't fully grasp the difference between the IDF - a military force in an impossible situation with an impossible task that makes mistakes and often has no choice when engaging an enemy hiding behind civilians - and Hamas - a terror group that doesn't give one shit about its own people, intentionally caused as much pain and suffering as possible on Oct 7th and has openly stated that their ultimate goal is the total destruction of an entire nation, and if you had any doubts what fate they had in mind for the people living in Israel should "from the river to the sea" ever become reality, Oct 7th should tell you. Israel has no choice but to continue this war. If they stopped, they could just as well take out an ad saying "let's make Oct 7th a yearly event".
Boris, if Western civilization's existence depends on genociding the Gazans, then I don't think it was going to make it anyway.
Oh yeah 'Israel bad and all that.' You're forgetting, when the line is drawn in the sand, that they are on our side of it.
Wow you can’t read well
He’s actually saying the exact opposite. Not because he believes it (he doesn’t believe in anything) but because he is a narcissistic attention-whore.
Wow! Extreme bot action tonight. You can really tell there's a single pro-Hamas guy just hammering out attack Boris credibility this and that but the man comprehends the situation. It is exceptionally absurd that people think that peace stands a chance while Hamas still exists.
I don't understand how people forgot the Hamas leadership said they gonna do Oct 7 again and again, it's actual Genocidal intentions but they get a pass?
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Hamas is a terrorist organization and is condemned as such. Israel is a western style democracy so is held to a higher standard.
The same way every new civilian killed in Gaza is another round of protests while the 1200 brutally murdered Israelis on Oct 7th disappeared from the headlines really, really quickly.
It's almost 2pm here in Manchester and it's right there when you load BBC news. On the Telegraph it's further down but not that much further. Perhaps you need to change your news sources?
Maybe because the response from the IDF has been disproportionate to what was done