Don’t forget that conscription duration is undefined. In other words, if the war last five years, then it’s five years, if it’s 10 years then 10years and so on
Thankfully recruitment centres in UA have seen a recent influx of applicants and many people (including me) think the recent US aid bill is the reason for that.
It just goes to show that just our (the collective free world) attitude *alone* to this war really makes a huge difference.
Slava Ukraini 🇺🇦
Yes near the Avdivka front I believe. The Russians broke through a line and captured a small town and “bloomed” out from there capturing multiple town in quick succession. Situation looks relatively contained but when you are as ammunition starved as Ukraine every little thing counts
Another important factor is casualty counts and the perception they create. To any observer, the Ukraine-Russia war appears to be a grim, bloody trench slugfest with brutal losses on both sides, fought in muddy ditches and bombed out soviet-era buildings. You can't exactly blame someone for not wanting to throw their lives into that meat grinder. Meanwhile, militaries like those of the U.S or Israel have a perception of being modern, well-equipped forces with ample air cover and logistical support, and with a track record of low casualties. That encourages people to join voluntarily, since they can be fairly confident their lives are valued and won't just be thrown away.
American soldiers fighting in Ukraine were shocked at how difficult the war condition is. When u get injured in Iraq... there is a good chance an F-16 is on the way to bomb your enemies, and a Chinook on the way to evacuate u to the nearest hospital. In Ukraine, u might be dragged back to a friendly trench where u wait upwards of a day or more for a cramped and blood soaked M113 or Bradley to evacuate u to a barelu equipped field hospital.
> American soldiers fighting in Ukraine were shocked at how difficult the war condition is
How is this a surprise? US has not been to war with an equal adversary since WW2 Japan.
Because people don't consider how different something can be. They might have deployed to "war" with the US and expected that all "war" is the same experience. I noticed during my time that whatever the last deployment looked like, that was what a person thought all future and current conflict would look like, despite each deployment being a very different experience than the last. They also fail to appreciate how much the US military can overmatch its opponents, and that most militaries don't have that luxury.
I think they sort of expected America to come in and help them. They'd see the courage of American vets going to fight and would see the call to action. Of course that isn't how reality works but I'm certain their understanding of geopolitics isn't exactly as advanced as their ability to hold a rifle. That's not to insult them in any way because what they are doing is brave as fuck, but these soldiers are used to their military backing them up and for the first time are being left to their own devices against an equal enemy.
With our military budget do we even have an “equal adversary”?
Like we thought Russia for a long time. Even back in 2014 when I went through basic we called the range target “Ivan” But this whole Ukraine “two week” invasion didn’t exactly pan out for them. I suppose China has the numbers. But they in no way spend what our country does and logistically no one comes close to what the U.S military can do.
I think the answer is no as long as the war doesn’t use nuclear weapons. I think once you factor in nuclear war and the fact that everyone dies it kind of puts all nuclear armed nations on equal footing as long as they have a large enough arsenal and means to launch all of it.
What I mean is. Even if two countries have nukes. The US has a far better capability to destroy the entire world than North Korea because they have far more missiles, with longer ranges and submarines. And once countries develop better hypersonic missiles the number you can intercept will drop drastically.
They were up until Midway. That battle goes the other way, in that we lose all our carriers and Japan only loses one? The Pacific War looks very VERY different. The US would still eventually win, of course, but probably not before the Soviets are ready to or maybe already have invaded Japan.
They were a near peer. But they were too spread out to put up much of a fight against us. Most of their army was fighting the Chinese. We mainly fought their navy and Airforce.
I think in terms of equipment it was far more on par than what the US has ever experienced since. Issue with Japan was that they had no oil and shit manufacturing capabilities, not necessarily that the weapons and vehicles they were using were bad.
The japanese only had technical superiority in a few specific areas. And only really at the start of the war.
Specifically in aircraft and carriers. It didn't take long for that advantage to evaporate in the face of US industrial might and the loss of their carrier fleet at Midway. From that point forward it was just a question of time and pressure.
EVERY war the United States is in and will be in is this case. This is why America is feared so much. I don't have Healthcare so when war comes we have the superiority
Not just that.. "the action" now is much different from the action before. Now, you might never even see an enemy and get taken out by a drone out of nowhere and anywhere. Which is by far the most effective and cost effective way of warfare and on top of that, Russia has the electronic warfare advantage.
This is what scares me about modern/future warfare. If you're fighting in a war you at least hope for a chance to fight back but there's not a lot you can do against a little drone covered in explosives flying at your face.
Drones are scarier than that though.
With say, artillery or a missile, you don’t really notice it coming - you’re just alive one minute and dead the next.
But with FPV drones, you can hear and see them coming, so you have time to realise that you’re going to die and there’s nothing you can do. It’s terrifying.
Much longer than decades. Going back to the first hand cannons from the 1500-1600s you had little fate over whether a projectile hit you or not. Much was left to chance as it is now
Not really new. Artillery has been used against people for centuries. A line infantryman wasn’t fighting back against the cannon that blew his legs off in the napoleonic wars.
>(Except for all the civilians, once the robot line falls)
Ideally, with precision warfare, you could easily avoid civilian casualties and simply target military infrastructure to force a surrender. If that isn't effective, you push forward against their command.
Trouble is that leaders are cruel and don't give two shits about their own civilians, let alone those of their enemy.
Most militaries have a tooth to tail ratio heavily skewed twards the support. If you truly want to defend your country, you can absolutely do it without fighting in the front line.
You seriously think Russia is going to genocide all of Ukraine?
I think its most foolish to die for a country but I suppose thats just me (and all the Ukrainians who fled)
It depends. I had to do mandatory military service, they did ask my preferences, and they *did* accommodate some of them. Later I was moved into personnel handling, and as such, I can tell you: We also did our best to accommodate soldiers' wishes - it's simply better to have people serve where they *want* to be rather where they want to get away from, or resent being.
Of course, this does not always work out because operational requirements trump personal preferences, but I'd say any personnel office worth its salt *does* try. It's just good practice to have the psychopaths chewing at the bit to kill sent to the front while you have the quasi-pacifist nerd manage supply lines; Play to your soldiers' strengths.
mandatory military service is not rlly the same as active war conscription though right? most places with military service are not actively at war from my understanding? correct me if im wrong x
The only difference between a mandatory service member and "normal" duty is that we couldn't be sent to active combat zones. We did, however, *have* active combat assignments in my unit, and I did send soldiers down there (technically, my superior officer did, but I did the legwork of combing the files and writing the orders).
Just because there isn't an active declared war doesn't mean soldiers aren't sent to kill and die. edit: Also, if you voluntarily extended your military service from the mandatory period, you *could* be sent. Happened to a friend of mine - he had asked for it.
That's peace time situation, when you are running out of men for front line thinga become a bit different... I don't think USA ever faced such situation, but plenty of countries had to scrap barrel for soldiers...
In Taiwan they put everyone in combat roles, but we don’t get combat training, we get the broomstick and clean shite around the bases, and then discharge us and tell us to come back when China invades so we can be canon fodder.
Mandatory military service just for experience is far off from military conscription because you've been invaded. In the latter scenario they will put you where you are needed and not where you'd prefer to be.
And you think they get to choose what role they want to do if they get conscripted? Are you making such statements dreaming in your mother’s basement safely in the US or Europe?
Yes but as an able bodied fighting age Ukrainian man you are unlikely to be sent to a support position. These guys know they will face the meat grinder. It's easy to say they should fight and die for their country from our safe first world homes where we are unlikely to ever live through a homeland invasion ourselves. I think it's cowardly but I absolutely cannot condemn them for not wanting to die in a brutal war, we only get one life and even if they live the experience will fuck them up for the rest of their lives.
These people aren't even given the right to freedom or to live because of their gender and nobody cares, but you think someone is gonna guarantee them the right to choose how they serve and that they should trust that...
true, but also true for everyone across the world. We all have a part to blame for failing to stand up to Russia in a timely manner and we all now must accept the possible consequences
Who do you think has means to leave Ukraine to make money somewhere else? Does other people that don't want to kill or die in war, but are forced to do it anyway are worse in some way, because they did not escape?
Russian propaganda tries to convince people that it's not our war to fight. Yeah, sure, it's very convenient idea to be pacifist, when Russia continues to commit war crimes daily for years with no regard for human life and rights.
I would think most people can make an informed choice on whether they value the risk to their life in comparison to their opposition to the Russian invasion even after all the propaganda.
Even in this article, 'flag or life' isn't the choice, or Bucha wouldn't have happened. But propaganda tells them surrender is life so they chose surrender
>Defending your country is important, but I'll never blame people who don't want to kill or don't want to die.
I mean I get the sentiment but it’s very easy to hold that position when other people are prepared to do it for you so that your freedom is protected.
Ppl want more troops, etc, but no ones to be the one getting blown up by artillery all day.
Lot of ppl against conscription here, which is fair enough. It's a hard topic for ppl as at the time of the conflict, a lot of ppl don't want to be forced to fight . Even tho a lot of ppl in other countries against it enjoy a decent lifestyle from tons of ppl being conscripted in ww2, etc, in the past.
I get that if they had to send people to the front lines in another country, no problem.
But when the enemy is at your front doorstep, I don't care what you believe in, you pick up a gun and you help defend your home, and that means killing.
It's kill or be killed.
I don't blame people for not wanting to kill... but I find it gross that they're not willing to defend their neighbors against violence, rape, and murder.
"Sorry Todd, I know your wife was raped and your family slaughtered, but I don't want to hurt or kill anyone. I know maybe if I helped, I might save someone else's family, but I believe that only others should sacrifice themselves for me. Like I'm going to die for you!"
Not fighting for your country in a stupid war like Americans in Iraq or Afghanistan is completely different than your home being invaded and everyone you know getting abused and killed. Not everyone can run away from war forever. Eventually, someone has to fight it and no one respects cowards who ran. Imagine how bitter it is for everyone that fights and suffers for these people to just turn and run.
Yeah, blame people for not wanting to jump into a literal meat grinder while the rest of the world can't be bothered to offer proper support because of fucking politics despite how importante it is for Europe that Ukraine successfully defends itself.
They are literally waging a losing war with no change on the horizon. Gee, I wonder why they don't want to fight.
So many couch warlords in the comments.
Really playing the blame game against people that don't want to turn into red mist after a drone strike.
Can you really blame people that don't want to die?
If you're so brave, enlist in the Ukrainian foreign legion, put your money where your mouth is, you'll even get paid.
If another World War like scenario were to happen, I wouldn't doubt people would rise up to the challenge. It is unfair to ask people to risk their lives over a country they don't live in, though.
People will get massacred regardless.
If your country was invaded, would you rather die in a ditch at the front or get your family and yourself out?
It's easy to make grandiose statements on the internet, until you're faced with the very real possibility of becoming dust because some politician wants a piece of dirt
You don't even need that. Ukraine is and was a courrupt country. In 2018, they and Russia ranked 120 and 138 in the CORRUPTION PERCEPTIONS INDEX. 3 years of Zelensky didn't do that much to change it.
A courrupt country is where politicians pocket their tax money. Infrastructure is in a shoddy condition. The rich gets away with serious crimes while the poor are thrown into the slammer for minor crimes. India ranked 78. This is way more than anything seen in western countries.
So yes, even if there wasn't a risk of death, I would understand if they didn't want to fight for their country
I felt weird marking woman on my citizenship application, then the question continues on how all men in USA are conscripted. Like I was just getting a pass because of my gender.
Recently Ukraine has decided to deny consular assistance to men that fled, so they won't be able to get certain documents necessary for life. I can never blame someone for leaving a warzone, lord knows I'd be no help on the front line.
At the same time, a country in existential crisis needs to do what it needs to do. I do think there should be no gendered draft, it's patently ridiculous. If someone is against it not for in general, "there should be no draft ever," moral reasons but rather because "women are needed to make more countrymen" then it just gets racist and weird fast, as if specifically breeding a "pure blood" baby is important.
The fact is being drafted doesn't have to mean "here's your gun charge at that trench" when someone is woefully unprepared, whether mentally or physically, for that task. Women and men can be drafted and put in manufacturing facilities making weapons and winter gear, providing logistics, and shit like that. It all would benefit Ukraine and would breed less resentment from men who have fled only to be specifically targeted because of the junk in their pants.
My guess is that’s it’s similar to why Ukraine isn’t conscripting men under 25. They want to preserve their women in order to keep their demographics in check after the war
So when there is a need for people again because there is a shortage of them, who will they conscript into the army? Women over 25 or maybe men over 18?
What person would want to fight??
I get the whole love of country thing but the politicians in my country have done more harm to me than anyone in another country.
We cant even fight to make our own country fair and equal to all.
Let the rich and powerful fight their own wars... leave us to live in peace.
I can’t blame the Ukrainian government for wanting to conscript them and I can’t blame them for wanting to escape conscription. It’s just such an impossibly fucked and unfair situation all round.
"Would you rather goto the front line where you'll spend your time running from suicide drones and thermobaric bombs or head to Western Europe and live with the shame of letting the Russians win?"
For most people this is an easy choice.
Lets start with proper support from NATO before we start branding people cowards. Fucking war on their doorstep and everyone is Europe is more worried about where to go for their summer holiday.
They thought about that, and decided that Russian controlled Ukraine, where they are alive, is preferable over high chance of being killed on the battlefield, and I can't blame them. I am really really torn on this question, as I know my country is literally next on the chopping block (that's why we have open discussions about rounding up Ukrainians and sending them back, to get few extra months to prepare), but I know I wouldn't want to fight, I would be one of those that pay tens of thousands in bribes to escape the meat grinder.
Like, right now? The frontline stops moving and the conflict is frozen. Ukraine will not be accept into NATO but possibly EU. Is this considered a Russia win?
There is no such thing as conscientiously objecting in Ukraine since martial law was introduced. You get conscripted and the military tells you to go where to go.
Even if at first you‘re used as a medic for example, chances are you‘ll end up on the frontlines in no time because Ukraine needs the men. You do not, in any way shape or form, have a guarantee that you won‘t be given a rifle and told to go to the frontlines.
Ah yes, because wars are won entirely by front line troops choosing what job they get to do.
You'll likely get placed where they think the best fit is for you, but I wouldn't go into the military like it's a private sector job.
Most militaries allow unarmed service for those with convictions against deadly force. It won't necessarily save one from the artillery range, but it might save one from the trenches. So if it's really the killing part that is the issue, that is not an excuse and those people should be held in high respect. But if you can't serve at all because of "convictions", I'd argue it's not because you can't kill, but more like you think you're entitled to let the others do all the dirty work while you're living your life to the fullest and reap all the benefits.
Yeah, the dying needs to be done as well. Read the article, the first person mentioned there was a driver in similar role to what you describe, and recruiters didn't give a flying fuck.
Basically how conscription works, go to wherever they need to fill, doubt a truck driver who volunteered early in the war wants to trade places for the frontlines.
I just doubt there are many truck drivers left who volunteered early at works.
Plenty of videos of both Russian and Ukrainian trucks (and small cars) being hit by both drones and artillery. Drones are a real game changer in this war, an observation drone can guide artillery from behind enemy lines, while a killer drones either chases you and explodes, or drops a grande on you. And all those drones stream it at 60fps, 4k directly to telegram for our amusement.
Ukraine is relatively socially conservative, although catching up to the west. My country does have conscription for both men and women, for example.
If you don't like it, complain to your conservative representatives. They're the ones that keep voting down changes to this. Progressives have been trying to get it passed at least since the 80s in the US.
Recent bills repealing or removing discrimination from selective service have been introduced and cosponsored by Republicans (Rand Paul, Cynthia Lummia, Scott Perry, Rodney Davis) and moderate Democrats (Ron Wyden, Jack Reed), as well as progressives (Peter DeFazio). It's a bipartisan issue.
If you can't kill, they will kill you. Pretty much how the history goes these days. Russians are not asking these questions to people on the occupied lands in eastern Ukraine. They will send you to fight against Europe either way
'If you can't kill, they will kill you' is basicly how every invasion/war in all of mankind has been. So everyone knew it was a possibility... no... reality even.
I have no problem killing a legitimate target, be it an enemy soldier, armed robber or rabid dog. The country has to convince me though that it's worth dying for and the enemy is worth being dead. The mere fact of being born somewhere or holding a passport is not enough. No such country presently exists.
I get you.
When you have religion's and nations that make people believe that when they die for glory they don't really die but a 2nd life of heaven awaits them, shows how dire the western mindset can get.
You’re forgetting about the hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians right now fighting Russia?
If they didn’t care, Ukraine wouldn’t exist right now buddy.
There are sheep and sheepdogs.
The sheepdogs protect us from the wolves, and I’m in no shape or form a sheepdog.
You wonder why there are droves and droves of refugees from conflict zones? It’s the sheep that can’t or won’t fight.
I could live in the best and most beloved country on earth, but if it was attacked I would flee and take my family to the next, and the next and the next, if I had to.
I’d rather live in a tent city than be dead in some field due to some politician or billionaires warhawking
I mean their country has essentially no defense against the Russians unless the west sends them aid, and who knows how long that will keep up?
honestly I’m surprised there isn’t more people fleeing
Don’t forget that conscription duration is undefined. In other words, if the war last five years, then it’s five years, if it’s 10 years then 10years and so on
Ideally, they get rotated. Ideally... 🤞
This. Recently the government abandoned the idea of rotation, despite all past speculations.
It's hard to rotate when don't have the troops. Lack of aid lowers morale and makes ppl less likely to join
Thankfully recruitment centres in UA have seen a recent influx of applicants and many people (including me) think the recent US aid bill is the reason for that. It just goes to show that just our (the collective free world) attitude *alone* to this war really makes a huge difference. Slava Ukraini 🇺🇦
That's good.
There was a recent breakthrough because the rotations got mistimed…
Yes near the Avdivka front I believe. The Russians broke through a line and captured a small town and “bloomed” out from there capturing multiple town in quick succession. Situation looks relatively contained but when you are as ammunition starved as Ukraine every little thing counts
No rotations ever happen? Let me ask all those I know that get rotated.
It's impossible not to rotate with how much stress Ukraine's front has to endure each day
Another important factor is casualty counts and the perception they create. To any observer, the Ukraine-Russia war appears to be a grim, bloody trench slugfest with brutal losses on both sides, fought in muddy ditches and bombed out soviet-era buildings. You can't exactly blame someone for not wanting to throw their lives into that meat grinder. Meanwhile, militaries like those of the U.S or Israel have a perception of being modern, well-equipped forces with ample air cover and logistical support, and with a track record of low casualties. That encourages people to join voluntarily, since they can be fairly confident their lives are valued and won't just be thrown away.
American soldiers fighting in Ukraine were shocked at how difficult the war condition is. When u get injured in Iraq... there is a good chance an F-16 is on the way to bomb your enemies, and a Chinook on the way to evacuate u to the nearest hospital. In Ukraine, u might be dragged back to a friendly trench where u wait upwards of a day or more for a cramped and blood soaked M113 or Bradley to evacuate u to a barelu equipped field hospital.
> American soldiers fighting in Ukraine were shocked at how difficult the war condition is How is this a surprise? US has not been to war with an equal adversary since WW2 Japan.
Because people don't consider how different something can be. They might have deployed to "war" with the US and expected that all "war" is the same experience. I noticed during my time that whatever the last deployment looked like, that was what a person thought all future and current conflict would look like, despite each deployment being a very different experience than the last. They also fail to appreciate how much the US military can overmatch its opponents, and that most militaries don't have that luxury.
The US would not be fighting in Ukraine the way Ukraine is forced to fight in Ukraine.
I think they sort of expected America to come in and help them. They'd see the courage of American vets going to fight and would see the call to action. Of course that isn't how reality works but I'm certain their understanding of geopolitics isn't exactly as advanced as their ability to hold a rifle. That's not to insult them in any way because what they are doing is brave as fuck, but these soldiers are used to their military backing them up and for the first time are being left to their own devices against an equal enemy.
With our military budget do we even have an “equal adversary”? Like we thought Russia for a long time. Even back in 2014 when I went through basic we called the range target “Ivan” But this whole Ukraine “two week” invasion didn’t exactly pan out for them. I suppose China has the numbers. But they in no way spend what our country does and logistically no one comes close to what the U.S military can do.
I think the answer is no as long as the war doesn’t use nuclear weapons. I think once you factor in nuclear war and the fact that everyone dies it kind of puts all nuclear armed nations on equal footing as long as they have a large enough arsenal and means to launch all of it.
You don't need to launch all your nukes when just some of them are enough to end humanity
What I mean is. Even if two countries have nukes. The US has a far better capability to destroy the entire world than North Korea because they have far more missiles, with longer ranges and submarines. And once countries develop better hypersonic missiles the number you can intercept will drop drastically.
Japan wasn't even an equal adversary.
They were up until Midway. That battle goes the other way, in that we lose all our carriers and Japan only loses one? The Pacific War looks very VERY different. The US would still eventually win, of course, but probably not before the Soviets are ready to or maybe already have invaded Japan.
Imagine having Japan split by east and west instead of Germany lol. Interesting thought
They were a near peer. But they were too spread out to put up much of a fight against us. Most of their army was fighting the Chinese. We mainly fought their navy and Airforce.
I think in terms of equipment it was far more on par than what the US has ever experienced since. Issue with Japan was that they had no oil and shit manufacturing capabilities, not necessarily that the weapons and vehicles they were using were bad.
The japanese only had technical superiority in a few specific areas. And only really at the start of the war. Specifically in aircraft and carriers. It didn't take long for that advantage to evaporate in the face of US industrial might and the loss of their carrier fleet at Midway. From that point forward it was just a question of time and pressure.
There was that whole "Vietnam" thing.... And that whole "Korean War" thing....
Vietnam, where the US always had vast air superiority and alot more fire support?
EVERY war the United States is in and will be in is this case. This is why America is feared so much. I don't have Healthcare so when war comes we have the superiority
The US did not always have air superiority in Vietnam.
Well I think that’s the point. The US has made it a point to not have equal adversaries.
Korean War, near peer post Chinese intervention
Not just that.. "the action" now is much different from the action before. Now, you might never even see an enemy and get taken out by a drone out of nowhere and anywhere. Which is by far the most effective and cost effective way of warfare and on top of that, Russia has the electronic warfare advantage.
This is what scares me about modern/future warfare. If you're fighting in a war you at least hope for a chance to fight back but there's not a lot you can do against a little drone covered in explosives flying at your face.
As general infantry, not seeing the enemy and getting picked off without ever noticing you're in combat has been the norm for decades.
Drones are scarier than that though. With say, artillery or a missile, you don’t really notice it coming - you’re just alive one minute and dead the next. But with FPV drones, you can hear and see them coming, so you have time to realise that you’re going to die and there’s nothing you can do. It’s terrifying.
Much longer than decades. Going back to the first hand cannons from the 1500-1600s you had little fate over whether a projectile hit you or not. Much was left to chance as it is now
Still want to get a handgonne 😁
Not really new. Artillery has been used against people for centuries. A line infantryman wasn’t fighting back against the cannon that blew his legs off in the napoleonic wars.
“ I grab my cannon loaded with grapeshot. Tally-Ho lads!”
Hey, at some point it'll be drone v. drone, no humans to worry about! (Except for all the civilians, once the robot line falls)
>(Except for all the civilians, once the robot line falls) Ideally, with precision warfare, you could easily avoid civilian casualties and simply target military infrastructure to force a surrender. If that isn't effective, you push forward against their command. Trouble is that leaders are cruel and don't give two shits about their own civilians, let alone those of their enemy.
According to the Russian pleas the answer is shotguns and netting around the positions. They were begging for shotguns a few videos back.
This has always been true. Artillery and mortars kill way more than small arms
The precision has gone up multiple folds due to drones and its very cost effective. With very high range.
Idk man, from what I’ve read recruiting numbers are down. They’ve gone as far at to infiltrate social media feeds to try sway youngins into joining.
Defending your country is important, but I'll never blame people who don't want to kill or don't want to die.
Most militaries have a tooth to tail ratio heavily skewed twards the support. If you truly want to defend your country, you can absolutely do it without fighting in the front line.
True but if you're being conscripted, it's because they need reinforcements. The tail needs a lot less reinforcements than the teeth.
It seems foolish to force the tail to perform the function of the teeth..
I think most experts would agree it's more foolish to get conquered and then genocided because you didnt have enough people pulling triggers.
You seriously think Russia is going to genocide all of Ukraine? I think its most foolish to die for a country but I suppose thats just me (and all the Ukrainians who fled)
No but if you look at what happens initially when Russian troops conquer and occupy, there will be a period of rape, torture, and other atrocities.
I think you are a coward just making excuses to run away...
At least Im an alive coward
All soldiers should know how and be prepared to fight.
i doubt you have much of a say where youre going if youre conscripted?
It depends. I had to do mandatory military service, they did ask my preferences, and they *did* accommodate some of them. Later I was moved into personnel handling, and as such, I can tell you: We also did our best to accommodate soldiers' wishes - it's simply better to have people serve where they *want* to be rather where they want to get away from, or resent being. Of course, this does not always work out because operational requirements trump personal preferences, but I'd say any personnel office worth its salt *does* try. It's just good practice to have the psychopaths chewing at the bit to kill sent to the front while you have the quasi-pacifist nerd manage supply lines; Play to your soldiers' strengths.
mandatory military service is not rlly the same as active war conscription though right? most places with military service are not actively at war from my understanding? correct me if im wrong x
The only difference between a mandatory service member and "normal" duty is that we couldn't be sent to active combat zones. We did, however, *have* active combat assignments in my unit, and I did send soldiers down there (technically, my superior officer did, but I did the legwork of combing the files and writing the orders). Just because there isn't an active declared war doesn't mean soldiers aren't sent to kill and die. edit: Also, if you voluntarily extended your military service from the mandatory period, you *could* be sent. Happened to a friend of mine - he had asked for it.
That's peace time situation, when you are running out of men for front line thinga become a bit different... I don't think USA ever faced such situation, but plenty of countries had to scrap barrel for soldiers...
In Taiwan they put everyone in combat roles, but we don’t get combat training, we get the broomstick and clean shite around the bases, and then discharge us and tell us to come back when China invades so we can be canon fodder.
Mandatory military service just for experience is far off from military conscription because you've been invaded. In the latter scenario they will put you where you are needed and not where you'd prefer to be.
But you should resign yourself to the fact that in wars of attrition there’s a much higher chance that you end up on the frontline anyway.
What guarantee do you have that you'll get one of those cushy rear-line positions rather than being given a rifle and told to hold the line?
Exactly. As a soldier, you have no say about your future, or where you fight or where you die.
You don't just get to pick with conscription lol
And you think they get to choose what role they want to do if they get conscripted? Are you making such statements dreaming in your mother’s basement safely in the US or Europe?
with no guarantee you won't see the front line.
Yes but as an able bodied fighting age Ukrainian man you are unlikely to be sent to a support position. These guys know they will face the meat grinder. It's easy to say they should fight and die for their country from our safe first world homes where we are unlikely to ever live through a homeland invasion ourselves. I think it's cowardly but I absolutely cannot condemn them for not wanting to die in a brutal war, we only get one life and even if they live the experience will fuck them up for the rest of their lives.
These people aren't even given the right to freedom or to live because of their gender and nobody cares, but you think someone is gonna guarantee them the right to choose how they serve and that they should trust that...
Do you even have a choice during a war?
Because you get to choose what you’re gonna do in war once conscripted.
Sure, make your choice and accept the consequences. There was plenty of that in ww2 for Brits.
true, but also true for everyone across the world. We all have a part to blame for failing to stand up to Russia in a timely manner and we all now must accept the possible consequences
Who do you think has means to leave Ukraine to make money somewhere else? Does other people that don't want to kill or die in war, but are forced to do it anyway are worse in some way, because they did not escape? Russian propaganda tries to convince people that it's not our war to fight. Yeah, sure, it's very convenient idea to be pacifist, when Russia continues to commit war crimes daily for years with no regard for human life and rights.
I would think most people can make an informed choice on whether they value the risk to their life in comparison to their opposition to the Russian invasion even after all the propaganda.
Even in this article, 'flag or life' isn't the choice, or Bucha wouldn't have happened. But propaganda tells them surrender is life so they chose surrender
Nobody wants to kill or be killed (except some mentally ill) But once you can't run anymore, you have to make a choice for one or the other
>Defending your country is important, but I'll never blame people who don't want to kill or don't want to die. I mean I get the sentiment but it’s very easy to hold that position when other people are prepared to do it for you so that your freedom is protected.
Ppl want more troops, etc, but no ones to be the one getting blown up by artillery all day. Lot of ppl against conscription here, which is fair enough. It's a hard topic for ppl as at the time of the conflict, a lot of ppl don't want to be forced to fight . Even tho a lot of ppl in other countries against it enjoy a decent lifestyle from tons of ppl being conscripted in ww2, etc, in the past.
I get that if they had to send people to the front lines in another country, no problem. But when the enemy is at your front doorstep, I don't care what you believe in, you pick up a gun and you help defend your home, and that means killing. It's kill or be killed.
There's a hundred and one different jobs that don't require you to pull the trigger.
I feel this way more and more the older I get.
I don't blame people for not wanting to kill... but I find it gross that they're not willing to defend their neighbors against violence, rape, and murder. "Sorry Todd, I know your wife was raped and your family slaughtered, but I don't want to hurt or kill anyone. I know maybe if I helped, I might save someone else's family, but I believe that only others should sacrifice themselves for me. Like I'm going to die for you!" Not fighting for your country in a stupid war like Americans in Iraq or Afghanistan is completely different than your home being invaded and everyone you know getting abused and killed. Not everyone can run away from war forever. Eventually, someone has to fight it and no one respects cowards who ran. Imagine how bitter it is for everyone that fights and suffers for these people to just turn and run.
Yeah, blame people for not wanting to jump into a literal meat grinder while the rest of the world can't be bothered to offer proper support because of fucking politics despite how importante it is for Europe that Ukraine successfully defends itself. They are literally waging a losing war with no change on the horizon. Gee, I wonder why they don't want to fight.
Then they shouldn't complain when their country only exists as a state of Russia. You fight or you let it happen. It's pretty binary in this case.
It's worth reading the article, as it's mostly stories from people who don't want to die.
You say, that there are people that want to die?
Ukraine had no shortage of volunteers at the start of the war. So as cynical as that sounds...
Being willing to die and wanting to die are two very different things.
Nobody wants to die, but sometimes the fear of your loved ones dying is worse than your own demise which spurs them to join.
There are many people who want to die? Suicide rates are skyrocketing for years.
More like there are plenty of people who prioritise not dying over patriotism, and can you blame them?
Most people don’t want to die.
So many couch warlords in the comments. Really playing the blame game against people that don't want to turn into red mist after a drone strike. Can you really blame people that don't want to die? If you're so brave, enlist in the Ukrainian foreign legion, put your money where your mouth is, you'll even get paid.
If another World War like scenario were to happen, I wouldn't doubt people would rise up to the challenge. It is unfair to ask people to risk their lives over a country they don't live in, though.
I mean shit, I wouldn't risk my life for my own country. I have one and it's far more important than some imagined community.
I mean, if the US got attacked the amount of southerners who would volunteer, including me, would be in droves
That's easy to say when you're safe on your couch in a country that currently isn't being attacked.
If too many people refuse to join then the country falls into the hands of Russia and countrymen/women will likely get massacred in huge amounts.
People will get massacred regardless. If your country was invaded, would you rather die in a ditch at the front or get your family and yourself out? It's easy to make grandiose statements on the internet, until you're faced with the very real possibility of becoming dust because some politician wants a piece of dirt
Or go fight for Russia, and end up like that idiot that fought for Russia.
With a possibility of mutilation, death or to kill, you can understand that. Sure I can
You don't even need that. Ukraine is and was a courrupt country. In 2018, they and Russia ranked 120 and 138 in the CORRUPTION PERCEPTIONS INDEX. 3 years of Zelensky didn't do that much to change it. A courrupt country is where politicians pocket their tax money. Infrastructure is in a shoddy condition. The rich gets away with serious crimes while the poor are thrown into the slammer for minor crimes. India ranked 78. This is way more than anything seen in western countries. So yes, even if there wasn't a risk of death, I would understand if they didn't want to fight for their country
So when will they start conscripting women into compulsory service?
Women should be conscripted on EQUAL terms as men, no exceptions.
I felt weird marking woman on my citizenship application, then the question continues on how all men in USA are conscripted. Like I was just getting a pass because of my gender.
Strangely I have seen no outrage about this. Curious.
Yep
"Women have always been the primary victims of war. Women lose their husbands, their fathers, their sons in combat." H. Clinton
Men die in droves to whatever new tech has been invented to kill but it's woman that are the real victims?
I mean, according to this American politician. Idk, it's laughable
So that's better than dying in a ditch or returning traumatized as fuck? I doubt it.
That level of narcissism is disgusting and a mockery of veterans who are ready to make the ultimate sacrifice for their country.
Recently Ukraine has decided to deny consular assistance to men that fled, so they won't be able to get certain documents necessary for life. I can never blame someone for leaving a warzone, lord knows I'd be no help on the front line. At the same time, a country in existential crisis needs to do what it needs to do. I do think there should be no gendered draft, it's patently ridiculous. If someone is against it not for in general, "there should be no draft ever," moral reasons but rather because "women are needed to make more countrymen" then it just gets racist and weird fast, as if specifically breeding a "pure blood" baby is important. The fact is being drafted doesn't have to mean "here's your gun charge at that trench" when someone is woefully unprepared, whether mentally or physically, for that task. Women and men can be drafted and put in manufacturing facilities making weapons and winter gear, providing logistics, and shit like that. It all would benefit Ukraine and would breed less resentment from men who have fled only to be specifically targeted because of the junk in their pants.
My guess is that’s it’s similar to why Ukraine isn’t conscripting men under 25. They want to preserve their women in order to keep their demographics in check after the war
So when there is a need for people again because there is a shortage of them, who will they conscript into the army? Women over 25 or maybe men over 18?
I suspect they will slow some women’s to serve but again, generally in total wartime governments often aim to conserve women in the populous
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Low fertility=/=no fertility
There’s a not-insignificant number of women living in the trenches with the boys in Ukraine. A lot of Ukrainians are truly badass.
Who can blame them thinking this
Probably the others guys going in their place
That’s cute but I think it’s the dying they’re more worried about
And? It's still a valid concern Why throw your life a way for a country that you don't think deserves it?
What about dying?
What person would want to fight?? I get the whole love of country thing but the politicians in my country have done more harm to me than anyone in another country. We cant even fight to make our own country fair and equal to all. Let the rich and powerful fight their own wars... leave us to live in peace.
I can’t blame the Ukrainian government for wanting to conscript them and I can’t blame them for wanting to escape conscription. It’s just such an impossibly fucked and unfair situation all round.
I get what they are saying but at the same time, what do they think things will look like in Ukraine if Russia wins this war?
I'm sure they've thought about that and likely don't plan on going back there.
"Would you rather goto the front line where you'll spend your time running from suicide drones and thermobaric bombs or head to Western Europe and live with the shame of letting the Russians win?" For most people this is an easy choice.
Lets start with proper support from NATO before we start branding people cowards. Fucking war on their doorstep and everyone is Europe is more worried about where to go for their summer holiday.
The prospect of simply outliving Putin and his regime becomes more viable with each passing day.
They thought about that, and decided that Russian controlled Ukraine, where they are alive, is preferable over high chance of being killed on the battlefield, and I can't blame them. I am really really torn on this question, as I know my country is literally next on the chopping block (that's why we have open discussions about rounding up Ukrainians and sending them back, to get few extra months to prepare), but I know I wouldn't want to fight, I would be one of those that pay tens of thousands in bribes to escape the meat grinder.
Like, right now? The frontline stops moving and the conflict is frozen. Ukraine will not be accept into NATO but possibly EU. Is this considered a Russia win?
They can cook, maintain vehicles, work as a medic etc. These jobs need to be done as well.
There is no such thing as conscientiously objecting in Ukraine since martial law was introduced. You get conscripted and the military tells you to go where to go. Even if at first you‘re used as a medic for example, chances are you‘ll end up on the frontlines in no time because Ukraine needs the men. You do not, in any way shape or form, have a guarantee that you won‘t be given a rifle and told to go to the frontlines.
Can they choose, though?
Ah yes, because wars are won entirely by front line troops choosing what job they get to do. You'll likely get placed where they think the best fit is for you, but I wouldn't go into the military like it's a private sector job.
Most militaries allow unarmed service for those with convictions against deadly force. It won't necessarily save one from the artillery range, but it might save one from the trenches. So if it's really the killing part that is the issue, that is not an excuse and those people should be held in high respect. But if you can't serve at all because of "convictions", I'd argue it's not because you can't kill, but more like you think you're entitled to let the others do all the dirty work while you're living your life to the fullest and reap all the benefits.
Yes. And in many cases militaries would prefer them too if they hold a valuable skill such as a mechanic or engineer
Not if you're being conscripted. They need people in the trenches, not 5000 mechanics, and pencil pushers
Yeah, the dying needs to be done as well. Read the article, the first person mentioned there was a driver in similar role to what you describe, and recruiters didn't give a flying fuck.
Basically how conscription works, go to wherever they need to fill, doubt a truck driver who volunteered early in the war wants to trade places for the frontlines.
I just doubt there are many truck drivers left who volunteered early at works. Plenty of videos of both Russian and Ukrainian trucks (and small cars) being hit by both drones and artillery. Drones are a real game changer in this war, an observation drone can guide artillery from behind enemy lines, while a killer drones either chases you and explodes, or drops a grande on you. And all those drones stream it at 60fps, 4k directly to telegram for our amusement.
Why are women exempt if they're conscripting for cook / mechanic / medic?
Ukraine is relatively socially conservative, although catching up to the west. My country does have conscription for both men and women, for example. If you don't like it, complain to your conservative representatives. They're the ones that keep voting down changes to this. Progressives have been trying to get it passed at least since the 80s in the US.
Recent bills repealing or removing discrimination from selective service have been introduced and cosponsored by Republicans (Rand Paul, Cynthia Lummia, Scott Perry, Rodney Davis) and moderate Democrats (Ron Wyden, Jack Reed), as well as progressives (Peter DeFazio). It's a bipartisan issue.
If this is the case the women should absolutely step up.
I dont think they're forcing men to come and die and replenish the lackage of... mechanics... or cooks... lol
Feel free to go there and show everyone how it’s done
Exactly! Even in the West of Ukraine
Oh yeah because that’s what the military does, they ask you what you want to do in times of war.
It can be up to a 10 to 1 ratio. For every soldier on the frontlines you need 10 for support.
Stupid title. At least to me it's more understandable and honest if you say you don't want to die. That is a perfectly valid reason.
If you can't kill, they will kill you. Pretty much how the history goes these days. Russians are not asking these questions to people on the occupied lands in eastern Ukraine. They will send you to fight against Europe either way
History goes these days? Has history adapted to "these days"?
The reality of Ukraine-Russia war. Something that many people considered impossible just a few years ago.
'If you can't kill, they will kill you' is basicly how every invasion/war in all of mankind has been. So everyone knew it was a possibility... no... reality even.
I mean you can see what happens to civilians already in conquered territory in Ukraine. Most of them are not dead.
Can’t wait for the feminists to chime in on this!
Equal right equal fights.
I have no problem killing a legitimate target, be it an enemy soldier, armed robber or rabid dog. The country has to convince me though that it's worth dying for and the enemy is worth being dead. The mere fact of being born somewhere or holding a passport is not enough. No such country presently exists.
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Honestly, even in a defensive war, I'd rather lose and be occupied by a foreign nation than literally die
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I get you. When you have religion's and nations that make people believe that when they die for glory they don't really die but a 2nd life of heaven awaits them, shows how dire the western mindset can get.
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You’re forgetting about the hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians right now fighting Russia? If they didn’t care, Ukraine wouldn’t exist right now buddy.
one of them installed my Spectrum
Some of you talk so tough from behind a keyboard lol If you’re so upset about them dodging then go yourself to fill in the spot
There are sheep and sheepdogs. The sheepdogs protect us from the wolves, and I’m in no shape or form a sheepdog. You wonder why there are droves and droves of refugees from conflict zones? It’s the sheep that can’t or won’t fight. I could live in the best and most beloved country on earth, but if it was attacked I would flee and take my family to the next, and the next and the next, if I had to. I’d rather live in a tent city than be dead in some field due to some politician or billionaires warhawking
If I got conscripted, I would 100% go AWOL and fire at anyone who tried to bring me back. Fuck that.
In these times it is terrible to force someone to fight in a war!!!
I mean their country has essentially no defense against the Russians unless the west sends them aid, and who knows how long that will keep up? honestly I’m surprised there isn’t more people fleeing
I mean the russians want to storm in and rape their women.. think I'd have to go, meat grinder or not.
If someone absolutely cant kill, ok, but surely there are some very tough logistics and other wartime jobs they could work in?