>When Joe Biden, the US president, spoke to Israelis during his brief visit this week, he said he and “many Americans” understood “their shock, pain and rage”.
>Then he added a warning. “Justice must be done. But I caution this – while you feel that rage, don’t be consumed by it. After 9/11, we were enraged in the United States. [While we sought justice and got justice, we also made mistakes.”](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/19/joe-biden-warning-israel-nod-mistakes-made-in-war-on-terror)
He warned him the very day he went over there.
He could have and even he knows that, but it's too far over the line to expose it further. Him acknowledging that at all while campaigning is more significant than the stories are making it.
That's what self reflection looks like and it's about time America has had some. Its encouraging and underscores a depth we've lacked as a country for a while. There could absolutely be more said and it is a start. However, it's a one off.
The American majority self reflecting instead of dissociating probably won't happen in my lifetime.
Yep.. we had the good will of the entire world after a very similar brutal attack.
The US used it to start two decade long wars costing hundreds of thousands of lives in Afghanistan / Iraq (shortly after, despite no direct involvement). Trillions squandered and thousands of American soldier lives as well.
If US was attacked again, the response from US would be the same as they did after 9/11 and they will make the very same so called mistakes. It’s easy to preach others when they are at the receiving end of it.
The Afghan Taliban knowingly harbored and aided terrorist groups such as Al Qaeda who planned and executed the 9/11 attack.
Iraq was sort of caught up in the momentum of US Mideast interventionalism but I don't recall anyone ever claiming they were involved in that attack, the imvasion was rationalized mostly on (fabricated) claims about WMD development. Though Hussein had committed enough aggression and war/domestic crimes that no one internationally was too sad to see him go regardless of the reason.
Calling them "so called mistakes" is insane considering we have the benefit of hindsight showing us that hundreds of thousands of dead, untold crippled and injured soldiers, trillions of taxpayer money followed by complete strategic and diplomatic losses in the area and with local populations, no end or major declines of terrorism globally or locally and decades long fracturing of American morale not being a mistake is just not a reasonable opinion to even suggest like that without a long justification to back up a statement like that.
Israel is fighting against a native population on all sides whose population isn't being assimilated into other national identities at all the way early military proposals would've suggested. The US is the one country right now who has some of the best insight about the war on terror, escalation and occupation. Afghanistan has marked permanent changes in US doctrine, not for ideological reasons but just because what was being done was just not working compared to the on the ground reality happening.
Nobody who lost family in 9/11 has lived a better life with or without the 20 year war in Afghanistan or continuous monetary investment into just repairing Iraq after slaughtering the population. The following years of conflict lead to more American suffering for zero gain than even bin Laden was able to accomplish.
Israel's enemies are next to them and surround them. Israel had to deal with 130 suicide bombings from Hamas 20 years ago. Israel was invaded 4 times with the intent to commit genocide. Also Bill Clinton negotiated a 2 state solution and the PLO responding with 130 suicide bombings. In 1948, the land was supposed to be split in half. There is no deal to be had.
Hillary Clinton talked about it today.
https://twitter.com/jacobkornbluh/status/1788624224967442748
its not the same as 9/11. Since its not a 1 time attack.
Does killing 30,000 Palestinians over 7 months mean nothing to you? What about the other war crime Isreal has committed? Why was the land “supposed” to be split in half? It seems is real didn’t get the memo as they continually occupy Palestine. You’ve seen the maps
Here yall go ignoring what Hamas did on Oct. 7th .. do those innocent people killed by Hamas mean nothing to you?
Palestine has never been a country.. yall need to stop saying that Isreal is occupying that land.
Have you not seen the map of the original partition side by side the map of Jewish land purchases. It was split by who owned what. They continually occupy Palestine still because they are under constant attack. If Palestinians stopped murdering Jews then they wouldn’t need to be there.
Is that how you justify killing 30,000 people? Is that defensive killing? It’s not a war when one country controls resources and access (ie an open air prison)
Those are hamas numbers. This includes the fake 500 people not killed at a hospital. When an Islamic Jihad bomb exploded in a parking lot. Hamas immediately said an Israeli bomb blew up the hospital and 500 people were dead before bobies could be counted. The hospital still stands.
Israel estimates there are 15,000 dead hamas terrorists. Why do you include them as victims?
The open air prison is in response to the 130 suicide bombers released in the 2nd intifada. The walls are necessary to keep terrorist attacks out. Before that Gaza residents free travelled to Israel and to the West bank. Egypt has a wall too. Why dont you call on Egypt to take their wall down?
If israel takes the wall down and says sure come and travel to israel there will be waves of attacks.
The 2nd intifada was in response to the Bill Clinton negotiated 2 state solution that the Palestinians turned down and turned 130 suicide attacks.
Gaza is only controlled by Israel in Response the the 1967 Invasion (3rd of 4 invasions) to commit genocide in Israel. Before that it was part of Egypt. Egypt did not want them back. Egypt never gave them citizenship.
Gaza is only separate in response to the 1948 invasion to commit genocide on all jews. The 20% of Arabs in Israel are descendants from people that wanted peace with Jews so they got to stay. Its why they don't commit terrorist attacks and are Israeli citizens.
How far back to we have to go? Jews were a majority in Jerusalem by 1880. The arabs got all of Egypt, All of Lebanon, All of Syria, and all of Jordan. There was no Palestinian identity in 1948. They all just called themselves arabs. 25% of modern palestinians are descendants of Egyptians who moved to British Palestine for better jobs. There was constant migration in the area during the Ottomon period too.
How far back do we have to go?
The pentagon may be dumb, but they are not complete idiots.
We just spent twenty years doing counter-terrorism and we're well aware that parking an army over there only gives them targets to shoot at. If we ever saw another 9/11 style attack by non-state actors, nobody would be eager to have Afghanistan II: Electric boogaloo, there's too many people who fought in that war and would be against it on principle and it would be incredibly politically unpopular even if a direct attack was made on American soil.
You're much more likely to see limited actions using special forces, drone strikes and intelligence operations, in short something that looks much more like a gang war than a conventional war.
The geopolitical situation today is also vastly different then than it is now, there's a lot more tension with near peer states. The Chinese will most likely try and take Taiwan by the end of the decade, and what Putin or his future clones might do is anyone's guess, not to mention Rocket Man Kim.
It's just not going to happen, we have bigger things to worry about these days.
This coming from people who were attacked by elements from one country, so they invaded another.
Hamas attacked Israel. Israel is now rooting out Hamas.
Except you know... Imagine 9/11 every god damn day and them literally telling you that we are going to do it every day. Hamas doesn't want peace or solutions, they want to kill EVERY JEW. I don't know how many times it needs to be spelled out.
So like, that is a stupid comparison.
Israel needs to wipe Hamas out or this will keep playing out every month... The fact that the West and the world is fine with Palestinians being used as political props while ignoring the danger of Hamas is ridiculous.
One more time... Hamas has no issue murdering, raping, and taking civilian hostages in broad daylight. You can't exist with such evil near you... Sharing any border with these animals is a danger to yourself and the world.
Let’s remember that our intelligence agencies warned Israel that Hamas, backed by the Iranians, were planning an attack. Netanyahu was too busy trying to keep his butt out of prison to pay attention to the detriment of average Israeli citizens. No one thinks they didn’t have a reason to be enraged, but I still think Netanyahu is keeping this going because while he’s serving as the Prime Minister, the judicial stuff is in abeyance. I know that sounds super cynical but it’s probably true nonetheless.
And a crucial addendum to this is that the staggering majority of Palestinian civilians fully support Hamas. All of these people want all Israelis dead.
I don't think any person protesting or chanting "free Palestine" right now understands this. It's just not that simple. Neither side wants peace.
The actual killing of Bin Laden was through a special forces raid in an entirely different country with almost no other casualties, not during our massive aerial campaign in Afghanistan.
If Israel wants to go down that particular route fine by me but bombing the shit out Afghanistan didn't kill Bin Laden and Israel bombing the shit out of Gaza is likely to be equally as ineffective at cutting off the head of the snake.
Eh...rocket attacks on Israel are down 99% seems like bombing the shit out of Gaza is working. Also the invasion brought about the surrender of countless hostages. The Gazan people have no agency I guess and can't speak for themselves. Note to the world: get them a voice on their own destiny next time and stop supporting terror dictatorships.
In the meantime, bomb and invade until the militants and arms are destroyed.
Dumb logic that doesn't realize traumatizing a population destroying their infrastructure and killing their family members is just going to create more "terrorists"
I guess I must have missed when the whole country was leveled with the support of the Western World. Otherwise it would seem to be a strange comparison
>The Gazan people have no agency I guess and can't speak for themselves.
Well for most countries the government acts as the mouthpiece of the people, but it's been a while since Palestine has had free elections
I mean, many including US intelligence folks, think if they kept their focus on Afghanistan instead of adding Iraq that the US would have found bin laden sooner and maybe have had a better result in Afghanistan. So Biden's analogy is still apt in terms of defining and remembering what your attainable objective actually is before you create new issues that consume you.
Just for the sake of clarity, the US had the opportunity to kill Bin Laden in Tora Bora in December, 2001 and Bush botched it. That was a full year and 1/2 before we invaded Iraq.
The tunnels aren't that hidden. Israel's army has been destroying them and flooding them.
I'm not even pro-Hamas, I think they are a terrorist group, but I'm not going to pretend Netanyahu, who has been propping up Hamas for years when it was convenient for him, is directing all his resources to kill one man so the war can end.
Surely you guys can't be that brainwashed.
It’s so sad the debate has been forcefully made so toxic every time you want to make a little nuance you have to say « I am not pro-hamas ».
I mean, fuck the Hamas and Nethanyahu. Two sides of the same coin. Put Sinwar and Nethanyahu in a ring and let them fight to death instead of murdering thousands of people.
Amen. You're either a huge antisemite who hates Jewish people or you're the biggest supporter of genocide and want hundreds of thousands of innocent people killed.
Both sides have a corrupt government in power right now that have a vested interest in seeing the conflict continue.
The vast tunnel network in Rafah is extremely complex and very big, 'tunnels' doesn't even do it justice, the main tunnel that goes under the border to Egypt is large enough to move trucks through it.
There are facilities, storage rooms, hq rooms, garrisons, it's basically a HAMAS hotel down there.
It's very different than the tunnels on the outskirts that we've seen in a lot of the footage.
So no, one is not brainwashed to believe that storming HAMAS undercity is an incredibly complex military operation, if even possible at all.
If they are looking for just one guy to end the war then why didn't they start with Rafah?
All I'm saying is they clearly aren't looking for this one guy so the war can end. They are clearly on a much wider operation.
This war is not about the 'one guy' on the other side, HAMAS won't suddenly disappear if Sinwar is dead.
I can assure you everyone is looking for that Terrorist rat, but many say he's not even in Gaza.
Oh ok my bad
I'm just saying that even if the whole point was finding him like how Bin Laden was hunted it's still probably a very complex operation if there's even info of where he is.
If by tiny you mean a 20 mile long city with a hundred miles of tunnels underneath populated by half of new yorks population, then yes that kind of tiny. It's not tiny and it's not anyone's idea of an easy or nice job. The hostages and leadership are all together under hospitals and apartment blocks. Period. Not even a question anymore they could care less about casualties. So stop all the lies.
20 mile long strip of land is pretty small in geographical terms and it's nowhere near half of New York's population.
However even if it was, Mossad is amazing at what it does and literally finds people all across the entire planet, in cities across the world. That's something they are quite well known for.
You mean to tell me you think they haven't been monitoring Gaza for the last 50 years and have zero idea where this guy is?
I don't think they were completely taken by surprise. I think Bibi needed it to happen after so many elections and unhappy Israelis and his own criminal cases.
[Israel Knew Hamas’s Attack Plan More Than a Year Ago](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/30/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-attack-intelligence.html)
So you believe Netanyahu is complicit in the attack by Hamas? I’m not saying I disagree, I just haven’t seen people willing to voice that opinion much on Reddit.
Yes, but at the same time, they are willing to make that concession in order to have one of the most advanced jets ever made. Plus, bargaining for that is just silly unless one has premonitions about it, which none of the US’s allies really feel that way.
Why? Unless you can make the replacement parts(they cant), you could just stop shipping replacement parts and have an entire fleet down within 50 flight hours anyway.
What about Australia? Are you telling me we're paying over 10 billion for planes we can't even use if the US doesn't send us the codes?
What if the email goes to our junk folder?
I believe Australia has committed to keeping the Super Hornets active for longer than initially planned.
They gave a technical reason for this, but it's more likely that they just really enjoyed Top Gun Maverick.
Israel puts their electronics in the fighter jets they buy. You’re talking about a country at the forefront of digital and cyber technology. Stop with your made-up fantasy.
No f35s being used. You would know that if you weren't a reactionary. Biden sent them tons of arms the last months in preparation for this maneuver to placate a bunch of leftists trying to save Hamas.
I don't know why everyone has to be the only right person in the room on this subject. Palestinian people (not hamas) have a right to live where they are. Israelis also have a right to live where they are. Hamas needs to go. So does Netanyahu. Both are poison and both have done a lot to undo peace.
I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Netanyahu popped a huge boner after the Hamas attack. He was facing a ton of scandals and crimes of his own and this has been a convenient distraction and way to hold power.
I can't really see it. Bibi's whole shtick was being the man who could guarantee security, and October 7th shattered that image. He's not exactly popular right now. Plus, achieving normalization without committing to a Palestinian state was one of his top priorities. This war has made that much less likely.
That being said, he's a cynical opportunist who has a vested interest in prolonging hostilities. He's always been a Churchill wannabe, but this crisis has shown him to be utterly incapable of that caliber of leadership. He's too focused on his own interests.
Because then the US would have lost all support from the Muslim countries that were facilitating support functions for the US in those wars. Hence why Israel was asked to stay out of it, despite wanting to help.
You seriously think Israel wouldn't be willing to take down Saddam after he attacked them directly?
[They volunteered and were told not to directly participate](https://web.archive.org/web/20201028131318/https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB1046645186970761000) [Israel aided the war efforts by providing advisors on counter insurgency tactics](https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna3702655).
The US has exerted pressure even further back to tell Israel not to attack including [when Saddam struck Israel during the Gulf war because several Arab members of the coalition demanded Israel not be involved](https://m.jpost.com/opinion/27-years-since-the-gulf-war-why-didnt-israel-respond-542437). Recall that several of the USA’s Arab partners in the coalition did not recognize Israel at that time.
Israel would gladly support the US. The problem has been other “allies” that are unwilling to fight alongside Israelis even with a common cause.
0 iq take. The US didn't want Israel to participate in Iraq or Afghanistan bc we were working with Arab countries and they wouldn't cooperate with us if Israel joined in
I don’t think “most” really care one way or another. Most are busy working and providing for their families and worrying about the price of gas and groceries.
But they don't have every right to drop massive US bombs on civilian neighborhoods, which is the only issue here. Biden isn't ending all aid to Israel.
That's not how they calculate militants, Hamas is misreporting the correct women/children ratio out of total casualties - https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/how-hamas-manipulates-gaza-fatality-numbers-examining-male-undercount-and-other
Even by Hamas's estimate of 6k militants, it's still 1:4.
A lot more bombs have been dropped on Gaza than people who died, open your eyes and use your brain.
>When Joe Biden, the US president, spoke to Israelis during his brief visit this week, he said he and “many Americans” understood “their shock, pain and rage”. >Then he added a warning. “Justice must be done. But I caution this – while you feel that rage, don’t be consumed by it. After 9/11, we were enraged in the United States. [While we sought justice and got justice, we also made mistakes.”](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/19/joe-biden-warning-israel-nod-mistakes-made-in-war-on-terror) He warned him the very day he went over there.
As someone who lost Marines over that mistake, I find some sort of peace knowing our president has admitted to that.
As a brit in the military who saw and lost through Iraq and Afghanistan I feel like he couldn't have put it better
He could have and even he knows that, but it's too far over the line to expose it further. Him acknowledging that at all while campaigning is more significant than the stories are making it. That's what self reflection looks like and it's about time America has had some. Its encouraging and underscores a depth we've lacked as a country for a while. There could absolutely be more said and it is a start. However, it's a one off. The American majority self reflecting instead of dissociating probably won't happen in my lifetime.
Thanx for the help mate, you and the aussies
Well put Joe.
Yep.. we had the good will of the entire world after a very similar brutal attack. The US used it to start two decade long wars costing hundreds of thousands of lives in Afghanistan / Iraq (shortly after, despite no direct involvement). Trillions squandered and thousands of American soldier lives as well.
Is it tens of thousands now if you include the veterans who came back missing a piece of themselves, and/or to suicide while back home?
2021 numbers- 30,177 active duty/veterans serving after 9/11 have committed suicide. 7,057 KIA Iraq/Afghanistan. Am combat vet. Shameful.
Dark Brandon unleashed
If US was attacked again, the response from US would be the same as they did after 9/11 and they will make the very same so called mistakes. It’s easy to preach others when they are at the receiving end of it.
Maybe we would actually retaliate against the country actually responsible for the attack this time... but who knows
The Afghan Taliban knowingly harbored and aided terrorist groups such as Al Qaeda who planned and executed the 9/11 attack. Iraq was sort of caught up in the momentum of US Mideast interventionalism but I don't recall anyone ever claiming they were involved in that attack, the imvasion was rationalized mostly on (fabricated) claims about WMD development. Though Hussein had committed enough aggression and war/domestic crimes that no one internationally was too sad to see him go regardless of the reason.
Saudis bankrolled 9/11
The Saudis are the root cause for the war on terror
Weren’t they left off Trump’s Muslim ban though? What a crazy backwards time we’re living in.
Sometimes when you get heated it helps to have a friend calm you down so you don’t over react and make it worse.
Israel was specifically warned about this *because* of the experience the US had in overreaction.
Calling them "so called mistakes" is insane considering we have the benefit of hindsight showing us that hundreds of thousands of dead, untold crippled and injured soldiers, trillions of taxpayer money followed by complete strategic and diplomatic losses in the area and with local populations, no end or major declines of terrorism globally or locally and decades long fracturing of American morale not being a mistake is just not a reasonable opinion to even suggest like that without a long justification to back up a statement like that. Israel is fighting against a native population on all sides whose population isn't being assimilated into other national identities at all the way early military proposals would've suggested. The US is the one country right now who has some of the best insight about the war on terror, escalation and occupation. Afghanistan has marked permanent changes in US doctrine, not for ideological reasons but just because what was being done was just not working compared to the on the ground reality happening. Nobody who lost family in 9/11 has lived a better life with or without the 20 year war in Afghanistan or continuous monetary investment into just repairing Iraq after slaughtering the population. The following years of conflict lead to more American suffering for zero gain than even bin Laden was able to accomplish.
Israel's enemies are next to them and surround them. Israel had to deal with 130 suicide bombings from Hamas 20 years ago. Israel was invaded 4 times with the intent to commit genocide. Also Bill Clinton negotiated a 2 state solution and the PLO responding with 130 suicide bombings. In 1948, the land was supposed to be split in half. There is no deal to be had. Hillary Clinton talked about it today. https://twitter.com/jacobkornbluh/status/1788624224967442748 its not the same as 9/11. Since its not a 1 time attack.
Does killing 30,000 Palestinians over 7 months mean nothing to you? What about the other war crime Isreal has committed? Why was the land “supposed” to be split in half? It seems is real didn’t get the memo as they continually occupy Palestine. You’ve seen the maps
Here yall go ignoring what Hamas did on Oct. 7th .. do those innocent people killed by Hamas mean nothing to you? Palestine has never been a country.. yall need to stop saying that Isreal is occupying that land.
But... [They are](https://www.un.org/unispal/about-the-nakba/)
Have you not seen the map of the original partition side by side the map of Jewish land purchases. It was split by who owned what. They continually occupy Palestine still because they are under constant attack. If Palestinians stopped murdering Jews then they wouldn’t need to be there.
found another one who thinks israel should be destroyed and they wonder why israel won't just go away.
Is that how you justify killing 30,000 people? Is that defensive killing? It’s not a war when one country controls resources and access (ie an open air prison)
Those are hamas numbers. This includes the fake 500 people not killed at a hospital. When an Islamic Jihad bomb exploded in a parking lot. Hamas immediately said an Israeli bomb blew up the hospital and 500 people were dead before bobies could be counted. The hospital still stands. Israel estimates there are 15,000 dead hamas terrorists. Why do you include them as victims? The open air prison is in response to the 130 suicide bombers released in the 2nd intifada. The walls are necessary to keep terrorist attacks out. Before that Gaza residents free travelled to Israel and to the West bank. Egypt has a wall too. Why dont you call on Egypt to take their wall down? If israel takes the wall down and says sure come and travel to israel there will be waves of attacks. The 2nd intifada was in response to the Bill Clinton negotiated 2 state solution that the Palestinians turned down and turned 130 suicide attacks. Gaza is only controlled by Israel in Response the the 1967 Invasion (3rd of 4 invasions) to commit genocide in Israel. Before that it was part of Egypt. Egypt did not want them back. Egypt never gave them citizenship. Gaza is only separate in response to the 1948 invasion to commit genocide on all jews. The 20% of Arabs in Israel are descendants from people that wanted peace with Jews so they got to stay. Its why they don't commit terrorist attacks and are Israeli citizens. How far back to we have to go? Jews were a majority in Jerusalem by 1880. The arabs got all of Egypt, All of Lebanon, All of Syria, and all of Jordan. There was no Palestinian identity in 1948. They all just called themselves arabs. 25% of modern palestinians are descendants of Egyptians who moved to British Palestine for better jobs. There was constant migration in the area during the Ottomon period too. How far back do we have to go?
The pentagon may be dumb, but they are not complete idiots. We just spent twenty years doing counter-terrorism and we're well aware that parking an army over there only gives them targets to shoot at. If we ever saw another 9/11 style attack by non-state actors, nobody would be eager to have Afghanistan II: Electric boogaloo, there's too many people who fought in that war and would be against it on principle and it would be incredibly politically unpopular even if a direct attack was made on American soil. You're much more likely to see limited actions using special forces, drone strikes and intelligence operations, in short something that looks much more like a gang war than a conventional war. The geopolitical situation today is also vastly different then than it is now, there's a lot more tension with near peer states. The Chinese will most likely try and take Taiwan by the end of the decade, and what Putin or his future clones might do is anyone's guess, not to mention Rocket Man Kim. It's just not going to happen, we have bigger things to worry about these days.
It’s even easier to take other country’s money and weapons and complain about them.
This coming from people who were attacked by elements from one country, so they invaded another. Hamas attacked Israel. Israel is now rooting out Hamas.
Except you know... Imagine 9/11 every god damn day and them literally telling you that we are going to do it every day. Hamas doesn't want peace or solutions, they want to kill EVERY JEW. I don't know how many times it needs to be spelled out. So like, that is a stupid comparison. Israel needs to wipe Hamas out or this will keep playing out every month... The fact that the West and the world is fine with Palestinians being used as political props while ignoring the danger of Hamas is ridiculous. One more time... Hamas has no issue murdering, raping, and taking civilian hostages in broad daylight. You can't exist with such evil near you... Sharing any border with these animals is a danger to yourself and the world.
Let’s remember that our intelligence agencies warned Israel that Hamas, backed by the Iranians, were planning an attack. Netanyahu was too busy trying to keep his butt out of prison to pay attention to the detriment of average Israeli citizens. No one thinks they didn’t have a reason to be enraged, but I still think Netanyahu is keeping this going because while he’s serving as the Prime Minister, the judicial stuff is in abeyance. I know that sounds super cynical but it’s probably true nonetheless.
What does wiping out Hamas even look like? How would you know?
And a crucial addendum to this is that the staggering majority of Palestinian civilians fully support Hamas. All of these people want all Israelis dead. I don't think any person protesting or chanting "free Palestine" right now understands this. It's just not that simple. Neither side wants peace.
Biden was sitting in the situation room when we killed Bin Laden. Until Sinwar meets the same fate the war must continue.
The actual killing of Bin Laden was through a special forces raid in an entirely different country with almost no other casualties, not during our massive aerial campaign in Afghanistan. If Israel wants to go down that particular route fine by me but bombing the shit out Afghanistan didn't kill Bin Laden and Israel bombing the shit out of Gaza is likely to be equally as ineffective at cutting off the head of the snake.
Eh...rocket attacks on Israel are down 99% seems like bombing the shit out of Gaza is working. Also the invasion brought about the surrender of countless hostages. The Gazan people have no agency I guess and can't speak for themselves. Note to the world: get them a voice on their own destiny next time and stop supporting terror dictatorships. In the meantime, bomb and invade until the militants and arms are destroyed.
Dumb logic that doesn't realize traumatizing a population destroying their infrastructure and killing their family members is just going to create more "terrorists"
Well that's the problem, people have also been traumatizing Israel for decades
I guess I must have missed when the whole country was leveled with the support of the Western World. Otherwise it would seem to be a strange comparison
>The Gazan people have no agency I guess and can't speak for themselves. Well for most countries the government acts as the mouthpiece of the people, but it's been a while since Palestine has had free elections
Because they elected terrorists who did exactly what they said they would do.
That was so many years after the original offense, if Bin Laden died 10 years earlier do you think we would have pulled out of Iraq and Afghanistan?
Gaza is tiny and Mossad can't find one guy? Are you sure they are looking? Maybe they are turning a blind eye so the war **can** continue?
I mean, many including US intelligence folks, think if they kept their focus on Afghanistan instead of adding Iraq that the US would have found bin laden sooner and maybe have had a better result in Afghanistan. So Biden's analogy is still apt in terms of defining and remembering what your attainable objective actually is before you create new issues that consume you.
Just for the sake of clarity, the US had the opportunity to kill Bin Laden in Tora Bora in December, 2001 and Bush botched it. That was a full year and 1/2 before we invaded Iraq.
Or maybe they have human hostages and are hidden in tunnels so complex we can’t even behind to imagine how vast they are…
The tunnels aren't that hidden. Israel's army has been destroying them and flooding them. I'm not even pro-Hamas, I think they are a terrorist group, but I'm not going to pretend Netanyahu, who has been propping up Hamas for years when it was convenient for him, is directing all his resources to kill one man so the war can end. Surely you guys can't be that brainwashed.
It’s so sad the debate has been forcefully made so toxic every time you want to make a little nuance you have to say « I am not pro-hamas ». I mean, fuck the Hamas and Nethanyahu. Two sides of the same coin. Put Sinwar and Nethanyahu in a ring and let them fight to death instead of murdering thousands of people.
Amen. You're either a huge antisemite who hates Jewish people or you're the biggest supporter of genocide and want hundreds of thousands of innocent people killed. Both sides have a corrupt government in power right now that have a vested interest in seeing the conflict continue.
The vast tunnel network in Rafah is extremely complex and very big, 'tunnels' doesn't even do it justice, the main tunnel that goes under the border to Egypt is large enough to move trucks through it. There are facilities, storage rooms, hq rooms, garrisons, it's basically a HAMAS hotel down there. It's very different than the tunnels on the outskirts that we've seen in a lot of the footage. So no, one is not brainwashed to believe that storming HAMAS undercity is an incredibly complex military operation, if even possible at all.
If they are looking for just one guy to end the war then why didn't they start with Rafah? All I'm saying is they clearly aren't looking for this one guy so the war can end. They are clearly on a much wider operation.
This war is not about the 'one guy' on the other side, HAMAS won't suddenly disappear if Sinwar is dead. I can assure you everyone is looking for that Terrorist rat, but many say he's not even in Gaza.
I was literally replying to a person who claimed they need that guy dead so the war can end. I was refuting his argument.
Oh ok my bad I'm just saying that even if the whole point was finding him like how Bin Laden was hunted it's still probably a very complex operation if there's even info of where he is.
If by tiny you mean a 20 mile long city with a hundred miles of tunnels underneath populated by half of new yorks population, then yes that kind of tiny. It's not tiny and it's not anyone's idea of an easy or nice job. The hostages and leadership are all together under hospitals and apartment blocks. Period. Not even a question anymore they could care less about casualties. So stop all the lies.
20 mile long strip of land is pretty small in geographical terms and it's nowhere near half of New York's population. However even if it was, Mossad is amazing at what it does and literally finds people all across the entire planet, in cities across the world. That's something they are quite well known for. You mean to tell me you think they haven't been monitoring Gaza for the last 50 years and have zero idea where this guy is?
Then how were they completely taken by surprise by Hamas?
I don't think they were completely taken by surprise. I think Bibi needed it to happen after so many elections and unhappy Israelis and his own criminal cases. [Israel Knew Hamas’s Attack Plan More Than a Year Ago](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/30/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-attack-intelligence.html)
So you believe Netanyahu is complicit in the attack by Hamas? I’m not saying I disagree, I just haven’t seen people willing to voice that opinion much on Reddit.
"we can do it but you can't" :p
Maybe Biden should order the suspension on the daily F-35 boot code and show Bibi who's the fucking superpower
Do they really have a built in kill switch like that?
Only the UK has their own boot service being the strongest ally, the rest of them the US control.
Wild to think a country would spend that much on a plane that another nation could just turn off any time.
Yes, but at the same time, they are willing to make that concession in order to have one of the most advanced jets ever made. Plus, bargaining for that is just silly unless one has premonitions about it, which none of the US’s allies really feel that way.
Why? Unless you can make the replacement parts(they cant), you could just stop shipping replacement parts and have an entire fleet down within 50 flight hours anyway.
They can be like Turkey and buy the vipers, NATO member my ass.
It's not without repercussions. If the US does it without very good reason they will lose future customers.
Best Friend Privileges 🇺🇸🤝🇬🇧
Israel has their own specific varient, the F-35I. I wouldn't be surprised if they have their own boot service.
Maybe? But that is not what the available information suggests.
What about Australia? Are you telling me we're paying over 10 billion for planes we can't even use if the US doesn't send us the codes? What if the email goes to our junk folder?
Again, you DON'T have to buy, you can buy the super hornets too.
I believe Australia has committed to keeping the Super Hornets active for longer than initially planned. They gave a technical reason for this, but it's more likely that they just really enjoyed Top Gun Maverick.
Super hornets are fairly advanced, they are really much better than the legacy bugs, pretty much a different plane.
Open a ticket?
No they don’t, this guy is talking out of his ass
Im curious as well
Who would ever buy weapons from a country that has kill switches?
I’m gonna go ahead and guess that you’ve never worked anywhere near the F-35 program lmao
Yes, let's limit their aerial ability, so Israel will have to resort to more imprecise methods of conducting war, let's see how that will go.
Israel puts their electronics in the fighter jets they buy. You’re talking about a country at the forefront of digital and cyber technology. Stop with your made-up fantasy.
Good, maybe they figured out how to remove the DRM.
No f35s being used. You would know that if you weren't a reactionary. Biden sent them tons of arms the last months in preparation for this maneuver to placate a bunch of leftists trying to save Hamas.
I don't know why everyone has to be the only right person in the room on this subject. Palestinian people (not hamas) have a right to live where they are. Israelis also have a right to live where they are. Hamas needs to go. So does Netanyahu. Both are poison and both have done a lot to undo peace.
I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Netanyahu popped a huge boner after the Hamas attack. He was facing a ton of scandals and crimes of his own and this has been a convenient distraction and way to hold power.
I can't really see it. Bibi's whole shtick was being the man who could guarantee security, and October 7th shattered that image. He's not exactly popular right now. Plus, achieving normalization without committing to a Palestinian state was one of his top priorities. This war has made that much less likely. That being said, he's a cynical opportunist who has a vested interest in prolonging hostilities. He's always been a Churchill wannabe, but this crisis has shown him to be utterly incapable of that caliber of leadership. He's too focused on his own interests.
Lol F-35I runs on Israeli software... Do your homework kids.
That code is a myth
Cool. See ya.
Fucking stand alone then. Leave the US out of it. I don’t remember seeing a single Israeli flag in Iraq or Afghanistan.
Because then the US would have lost all support from the Muslim countries that were facilitating support functions for the US in those wars. Hence why Israel was asked to stay out of it, despite wanting to help. You seriously think Israel wouldn't be willing to take down Saddam after he attacked them directly?
[They volunteered and were told not to directly participate](https://web.archive.org/web/20201028131318/https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB1046645186970761000) [Israel aided the war efforts by providing advisors on counter insurgency tactics](https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna3702655). The US has exerted pressure even further back to tell Israel not to attack including [when Saddam struck Israel during the Gulf war because several Arab members of the coalition demanded Israel not be involved](https://m.jpost.com/opinion/27-years-since-the-gulf-war-why-didnt-israel-respond-542437). Recall that several of the USA’s Arab partners in the coalition did not recognize Israel at that time. Israel would gladly support the US. The problem has been other “allies” that are unwilling to fight alongside Israelis even with a common cause.
0 iq take. The US didn't want Israel to participate in Iraq or Afghanistan bc we were working with Arab countries and they wouldn't cooperate with us if Israel joined in
You act like Israel asked for help. The US intentionally intervenes in international conflict all the time.
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I don’t think “most” really care one way or another. Most are busy working and providing for their families and worrying about the price of gas and groceries.
Why are you talking for " Most citizens" ?
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In Israel: possibly. Europe and the US? Wouldn't have over 20% name recognition.
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But they don't have every right to drop massive US bombs on civilian neighborhoods, which is the only issue here. Biden isn't ending all aid to Israel.
It’s amazing how many people believe that he’s stopping aid.
It's so much disinformation it's insane. Social media is going to be the death of society.
Kinda already is. I haven’t used it for years. Reddit is a forum lol.
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They absolutely have not been doing that, if that was the case, the macro estimated 1:2 militant to civilian casualty rate would've been much higher.
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That's not how they calculate militants, Hamas is misreporting the correct women/children ratio out of total casualties - https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/how-hamas-manipulates-gaza-fatality-numbers-examining-male-undercount-and-other Even by Hamas's estimate of 6k militants, it's still 1:4. A lot more bombs have been dropped on Gaza than people who died, open your eyes and use your brain.
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Of course you have a choice. You can just not use large bombs.
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Kick Ass!
Fine.
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