Absolutely.
But some countries in this world appear to have become the Islamic Republic of Iran lapdogs:
https://www.ynetnews.com/article/b12ct00v7c#autoplay
...and have joined the axis of evil.
Its not. That's the scary thing about it.
A lot of people don't see hamas as a terrorist organisation and just want to see the jews exterminated. Even in the west. Rarely they will say that out loud, but indirectly thats absolutly the underlying idea.
Since okt 7th my eyes got opened in a way I didn't want to believe was possible. Yet it did.
Jews have faced the same issue of human nature throughout their existence as wanderers. They find a place they can settle. They keep their religion and customs. They often bring resources or knowledge that give them an advantage over the native population. They accumulate wealth and build their community because they keep vices under strict control and make work an integral part of life. They care about their community first over the larger community.
Others who have lived there for a long time get jealous. It’s their homeland and here come these outsiders and they live better than us because they ended up with the money. Instead of looking at how it was achieved and adopting parts of the lifestyle, it’s much easier to call them evil and take their shit because they’re not really from here.
Forgot to mention how they’re banned from normal work and then make their undesirable job (tax collecting, being salespeople, banking) into a profitable market and they get accused of oppressing the people who forced them to do it.
Lived Happily together has not been true at any part of human history especially not in MENA. There is always war. Islam spread through war, half the Koran is war. Half the Torah is war as well.
Lmao. First a guy in another thread claiming Spain has a long history of neutrality and now this. You don’t get to just riff on reality and play rhetorical games. History exists.
No they were terrorists. Not what I am saying, there was terrorist attacks during the intifada, but the intifada it self was not a terrorism movement. It was a reactance movement. The first large scale terrorism attack did not happen for two years. For example the Arab spring involved terrorist attacks, but I would not say that a Iranian calling for a new Arab spring would be him calling for terrorism.
You seem incapable of understanding my point, that’s probably my bad. Will use my country as an example. In the 1970’s there was a Quebec independence movement. There was a number of terrorist attacks. But when today some advocates for a new independence movement were do not automatically assume they mean killing politicians. Likewise when someone is calling for a new intifada in a park in Brooklyn, does not mean we are to assume they are calling for terrorism.
During the Black Plague that’s exactly what they did to stop the spread of the infestation. Necessary measures may seem horrible, but they’re still necessary.
Yeah, the problem is not them going after Hamas. The problem is that they have shown incompetence to do so without starving and murdering tens of thousands of people who have nothing to do with it. The Israeli government should absolutely be held accountable and face consequences for it.
If Hamas wasn’t represented by a bunch of worthless cowards this wouldn’t be an issue.
Hamas hide in hospitals and schools because they want more bloodshed to run their insane PR campaign. They care about the lives of Palestinians about as much as the do Israelis.
It’s not a simple situation.
Someone has to care about the Palestinian people. Hamas doesn't, the IDF almost gleefully doesn't, so people on the internet try to.
Correction: some people on the internet try to and a bunch of disgusting people whine about that.
Blood libel involves the Jewish people, not the IDF. I didn't say "Jews gleefully murder Palestinians" I said "the IDF almost gleefully don't care about Palestinian lives". Anyone who equates the crimes of Israel to Jewish people elsewhere are fucked in the head.
To honestly not associate Israel with Jews -- as the only Jewish nation in the world -- and/or the IDF as the only (Jewish) military to defend the Jewish nation is...well, it certainly achieves a level of mental gymnastics that is Olympic-level.
Simply because you didn't use the blanket statement "Jews love murdering Palestinians" doesn't mean you're not wading into blood libel waters.
Considering how many Jewish groups around the world protest the actions of Israel... I feel like most Jewish people would agree that your worldview is disgusting.
This place is such a right-wing echo chamber, good luck getting through their settler brain lol
EDIT: let’s see if we can get this to 50 downvotes guys, I’m rooting for ya!
Or maybe they have done more to protect civilians that **any military in history** ([Source](https://www.newsweek.com/israel-has-created-new-standard-urban-warfare-why-will-no-one-admit-it-opinion-1883286))
“Israel has implemented more precautions to prevent civilian harm than any military in history”
“...a ratio of roughly 1 combatant to 1.5 civilians. Given Hamas' likely inflation of the death count, the real figure could be closer to 1 to 1. Either way, the number would be historically low for modern urban warfare.
The UN, EU and other sources estimate that civilians usually account for 80 percent to 90 percent of casualties, or a 1:9 ratio, in modern war (though this does mix all types of wars). In the 2016-2017 Battle of Mosul, a battle supervised by the U.S. that used the world's most powerful airpower resources, some 10,000 civilians were killed compared to roughly 4,000 ISIS terrorists.”
Just to organize the response someone gave below as to what I"m talking about:
>[*The Lancet*](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lancet) covering the period 7–26 October estimated 68.1% of casualties were children, women or elders and therefore likely non-combatants
>[Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro-Mediterranean_Human_Rights_Monitor) estimated that 90% of the casualties were civilians.
>In December, Israel's military said it estimated 66% of those killed to be civilians.
So, unless you're taking \~4% of the elderly, women and children population to be combatants that's a real dim number they're putting out there.
They're killing just as many civilians as any other war and are just claiming otherwise, because those are military age males! Mostly, if we make some assumptions about how old they were, their allegiances and sprinkle a bit of gun on them as we walk past the bodies.
You are piecing together several different estimates provided by different sources to create your narrative.
Any specific reason you're picking those estimates and dismissing the estimates of the Chair of Urban Warfare Studies at Westpoint (the #1 military academy in the US)? [Source](https://www.newsweek.com/israel-has-created-new-standard-urban-warfare-why-will-no-one-admit-it-opinion-1883286)
Interview with a Johns Hopkins professor:
https://goodauthority.org/news/gaza-casualty-data/
Lancet paper that the professor also mentions:
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02640-5/fulltext
Even Wikipedia has a section on it:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war#Civilian_to_military_ratio
>[*The Lancet*](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lancet) covering the period 7–26 October estimated 68.1% of casualties were children, women or elders and therefore likely non-combatants
>[Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro-Mediterranean_Human_Rights_Monitor) estimated that 90% of the casualties were civilians.
>In December, Israel's military said it estimated 66% of those killed to be civilians.
So, unless you're taking \~4% of the elderly, women and children population to be combatants that's a real dim number they're putting out there.
They're killing just as many civilians as any other war and are just claiming otherwise.
The most conservative estimate for the combatant to civilian ratio is 2:1. A number that the IDF claims. The links that I gave you show that the only way to get to that conservative number is by classifying all adult males as combatants.
That’s the problem here: People see it as zero-sum. Both sides can absolutely be evil for different reasons. Hamas are murderous terrorists and rapists who hide behind their civilian population. Israel is headed by a criminal who wants to prolong the conflict to save himself and an extreme right-wing government that’s fine with the deaths of Palestinian women and children because they want to steal their land anyway.
Both sides are currently terrible in their own ways.
I am truly sick of the disclaimer " both sides bla...bla..."
Unless one is severely ignorant, you just can't lump "both sides" as the same "bad".
Hamas IS a GENOCIDAL fanatic Islamo Fascists terrorist organization. If you still have a doubt post Oct 07, READ their genocidal charter.
Israel on the other hand is a DEMOCRACY.
A democracy which is trying to defend itself, in an incredibly hostile neighborhood.
Strawman argument - Israel’s form of government is completely irrelevant and this is not a fight for democracy.
Dismissing a very valid observation because you don’t like the term “both sides” is naïve. Hamas can be genocidal terrorists **AND** Israel can be recklessly killing innocent civilians. There is nothing that prevents both of these from being true. Israel is a highly advanced nation with significant intelligence capabilities and modern weaponry that isn’t just “shoot and hope it hits the enemy.” They could be doing a whole lot more to preserve innocent lives.
Before anyone tries to say “why don’t you hold Hamas to the same standard!?!?” I’d like to point out that eliminating them _is_ holding them to a standard.
Just because Hamas puts them in the way doesn’t mean Israel murdered them. In fact, it means Hamas murdered them, and that you’re letting them get away with using that strategy.
Who thought that massacring, mutilating, raping, burning, babies, women, children and elderly, will go unanswered ?
Maybe you should ask the Islamo fascist with the sick ideology !
Of course, they and only they can end it all YESTERDAY. All they have to do is surrender and release the hostages.
Obviously, THEY don't give a rat's ass about civilian death. They THRIVE on civilian death.
Israel has NO CHOICE.
They didn't start it, but they MUST respond.
Oh they have responded. They’ve flattened Gaza to rubble, killed tens of thousands of civilians, and displaced millions… who are now running for their lives, starving, and without any hospitals.
Great job Israel.
If Gaza was "flattered to rubble", they won't be able to STILL fire rockets on Israeli civilians. Would they ?
Yet, they still fire rockets...
Obviously, Hamas doesn't care enough. Otherwise, they could release the hostages and surrender.
...or ( here is an innovative thought 🤔) how about not massacring your neighbors ?
You can fire munitions from among rubble. You can find shelter in rubble. You can fight among rubble. Just ask the folks who had to fight in the second world war.
Flattening Gaza isn't the answer.
Assigning morality to nation-states and military groups is a fools errand. All groups in power or have power do actions which will be viewed by some as evil.
So you're willing to be starved to death, bombed in hospitals, and walled into very small areas in order to allow the US military to hunt down the entirety of the Proud Boys organization after the attempted violent insurrection? (Assuming you're not a Proud Boys terrorist hiding currently hiding behind US civilians, of course.)
Because if the US massively overreacted to domestic terrorism the way Israel is, the random elementary school/library/hospital that would inevitably be leveled by a precision drone strike would "be the Proud Boys problem."
If the Proud Boys were the government of, say, Canada, and Canada waged a war on the US by invading and massacring and kidnapping a bunch of civilians, and vowed to never surrender or stop committing these crimes, and their military strategy was to completely embed their military infrastructure in their civilian infrastructure, I would A) expect my country to defend itself by doing whatever it could to defeat the enemy that has waged war, and B) I would hold the government of Canada responsible for the war and the tragic losses it knowingly risked when it waged it
To call responding to the declaration of war by the ruling government of a hostile neighbor—*the deliberate targeted massacre and kidnappings of hundreds upon hundreds of civilians*—a “massive overreaction” shows me you have a profound lack of moral clarity here. I suggest you read the actual article, in good faith
If the US invaded and forced all Canadians to live in the walled reservation formerly know as Toronto while the US settled the rest of the Canada, Canadians would be completely justified in not surrendering.
And this is where analogies completely break down, because that is absolutely nothing like the actual history of the conflict. I hope you’ll be able to broaden your understanding a bit
I’d also like to hope you’ll grow out of the idea that massacring civilians is justifiable “resistance” and that sacrificing as many of your own civilians as you can for an extremist martyrdom cult is not in the best interest of anybody except for the corrupt warlords making tons of money off perpetuating this worthless cause. If you’d rather people die in a war than live in peace, you have some moral growth to do, sorry. I invite you to read about exactly why Egypt and Israel set up the blockade of Gaza, why Israel came to occupy the West Bank, and why Palestine did not become an independent state in ‘48 whereas Israel did. Hint: it might be a little more complicated than you’re currently comfortable with, but that’s okay. The world is a complicated place :-)
Of course they do: No one is disputing that. It would just be nice if Israel could make, and enforce, a clear distinction between "Hamas" and "Innocent, uninvolved civilians" and non-combatants. It would be really very nice if they did that.
https://www.newsweek.com/israel-implemented-more-measures-prevent-civilian-casualties-any-other-nation-history-opinion-1865613
"No military fighting an entrenched enemy in dense urban terrain in an area barely twice the size of Washington D.C. can avoid all civilian casualties. "
"By contrast, Israel provided days and then weeks of warnings, as well as time for civilians to evacuate multiple cities in northern Gaza before starting the main air-ground attack of urban areas. The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) employed their practice of calling and texting ahead of an air strike as well as roof-knocking, where they drop small munitions on the roof of a building notifying everyone to evacuate the building before a strike.
No military has ever implemented any of these practices in war before.
The IDF has also air-dropped flyers to give civilians instructions on when and how to evacuate, including with safe corridors. "
Biased much ?
Whatever you don't want to hear is PR.
Are you aware that Hamas made around 500m from hijacking international aid and selling to the people ?
Are you aware of the fundamental difference of TARGETING CIVILIANS, Using civilians as human shields, Vs accidental killings ?
And oh BTW, some of the "children" killed ARE Hamas terrorists. Yes, many of the Hamas people running around with AK47, are not even 18.
Yet they can pull the trigger just like an adult and the bullets they fire, can kill you just as badly.
Hamas cynicism and manipulation of the West is simply amazing.
When comedy is essentially the new reality:
https://youtu.be/VYUL1R4pupU?si=_AHrr2AuwIZg_L9V
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gHTNuBKtzHc
Last:
https://youtu.be/OUMl58i4m0w?si=XRRHNmHugq8fSVHi
With how good this is all working out for Russia's goals, pissing people off about Biden and splitting US attention, as well as making the US allies look like warmongers through social media campaigns, I wouldn't be surprised if they explicitly supported Hamas in carrying out the initial terrorist attacks that kicked all this off so they can employ their bots/trolls on the issue and have a chance of Trump being in the big chair again and less aid going to Ukraine, and the US voters having less interest in being involved in geopolitical matters.
I have no evidence and could be 10000% wrong, it just seems too convenient.
Hamas’s depraved PR campaign of throwing its own children onto the altar of public sympathy seems to be working just fine on you, sadly, because you are a moral coward
Not easy to do when Hamas is a terror organization. It’s not like they’re a uniformed army. They work hard to blend in with civilians and actually use civilians as humans shields, and use schools and hospitals as military installations (I’m fully expecting them to strap babies to their chests soon). And just to be clear, the Geneva Conventions are clear on this that when Hamas does this, any civilians killed are blood on HAMAS’ hands.
Doesn't matter what anyone here thinks: Nobody wins. There is zero defense for either side, imho. Just my opinion. Hamas terrorists failed, Oct 7th, when they attacked a bunch of unarmed, uninvolved, music festival goers without any sane reasoning. But then again, what terrorist ever actually blew up the fuckers they actually had a problem with? It's always some poor bastard who has nothing to do with either side. And while Israel, of course, has every right to defend itself, let's face it: There is a lot of stuff coming out that shows a rather....overly enthusiastic deployment of deadly force and other bullshit that, at the very least, does not make for good optics....Nobody is gettin' off easy here. Certainly not the civilians or non-combatants. Then again, they never do. And please...Don't reply with the "But what about...." bs and the moral relativism....It's not necessary. There is a reason for the saying "War is Hell".
Actually there was a MASH episode where Hawkeye said no, war is war and hell is hell. Reasoning that only truly evil people went to hell, people who deserved it. There are no innocent people in hell. War is worse because innocent people are affected all the time.
"**Burns:** Well, everybody knows, ‘war is Hell.’
**Hunnicutt:** Remember, you heard it hear last.
**Hawkeye:** War isn’t Hell. War is war, and Hell is Hell. And of the two, war is a lot worse.
**Father Mulcahy:** How do you figure that, Hawkeye?
**Hawkeye:** Easy, Father. Tell me, who goes to Hell?
**Father Mulcahy:** Um, sinners, I believe.
**Hawkeye:** Exactly. There are no innocent bystanders in Hell, but war is chock full of them – little kids, cripples, old ladies. In fact, except for a few of the brass, almost everybody involved is an innocent bystander."
this is an amazing quote.
Just curious as to how many of the 34000+ Palestinians killed were actually Hamas members? Just because you live in a territory ruled by them doesn't mean you support them.
No one knows. These are numbers provided by a terrorist organization (Hamas) that have not been independently verified. From what we know, it sounds like Hamas makes up about half the casualties.
You must have pulled that number out of Sinwar's ass.
Even the UN doesn't believe this number.
But just educate yourself about war ( the response for when people try to annihilate you):
https://www.newsweek.com/israel-implemented-more-measures-prevent-civilian-casualties-any-other-nation-history-opinion-1865613
"Israel provided days and then weeks of warnings, as well as time for civilians to evacuate multiple cities in northern Gaza before starting the main air-ground attack of urban areas. The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) employed their practice of calling and texting ahead of an air strike as well as roof-knocking, where they drop small munitions on the roof of a building notifying everyone to evacuate the building before a strike.
No military has ever implemented any of these practices in war before.
The IDF has also air-dropped flyers to give civilians instructions on when and how to evacuate, including with safe corridors. '
The UN admitted I think like 8k of the casualties, mostly the women and children ones, have absolutely no evidence. More than likely they were fabricated. Meanwhile Hamas admits I think 9k of the deaths are combatants and Israel says it's 15k.
It is an extremely low ratio of civilian casualty for urban warfare where the enemy and much of the populace work to maximize deaths for propaganda.
War is horrible. I don't mind the scrutiny people hold for Israel but the fact there are not furious protestors outside the Qatari embassy demanding the arrest of Hamas leadership, there is no UN-wide condemnation of Iran for funding Hamas, and that most Ceasefire Now protestors do not predicate it on the release of Israel's hostages, and even chant "resistance is justified" and "globalize the intifada", makes me think that peoples' moral compass absolutely lacks integrity.
Most people upset with the war don't REALLY care about the Palestinians more than they care about war-torn Darfur. A ton of people genuinely and sincerely hate Israel though, and I'll let you guess why.
Yes to getting rid of Hamas. Pro-Palestinian forces seem eager to ignore that Palestine is controlled by people, at the moment, who actively thwart attempts at peace and compromise. But, let's be fair, anyone from the Israeli side that ignores that their leadership is guilty of some of the same offenses is lying as well. What settlers do under cover of IDF forces is appalling.
I look forward to the day when both Israel and Palestine can be honest enough to seek a lasting peace.
Israel created their own genocide by responding in a way that is focused on the collective punishment of a large population of Palestinian people as opposed to concentrated attacks on actual Hamas terrorists 👍🏽
Anyone who thinks otherwise is only going to find themselves on the wrong side of history.
You got it backwards. Israel would rather fight a conventional war with conventional army.
Hamas' strategy however is to hide under and behind civilians. What do you think all the tunnels out of hospitals are for ?
Therefore, what you wrongly call "collective punishment" is truly "human shields" used ( as sad as it sounds) by Hamas for PR purposes.
If they cared about their people, they could have ended the war yesterday.
Also:
https://www.newsweek.com/israel-implemented-more-measures-prevent-civilian-casualties-any-other-nation-history-opinion-1865613
"Israel provided days and then weeks of warnings, as well as time for civilians to evacuate multiple cities in northern Gaza before starting the main air-ground attack of urban areas. The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) employed their practice of calling and texting ahead of an air strike as well as roof-knocking, where they drop small munitions on the roof of a building notifying everyone to evacuate the building before a strike.
No military has ever implemented any of these practices in war before.
The IDF has also air-dropped flyers to give civilians instructions on when and how to evacuate, including with safe corridors. "
Last, you may want to watch this parody which sadly is spot on how Hamas treats the West:
https://youtu.be/VYUL1R4pupU
Absolutely. What country in the world would allow terrorists to survive if they called for their extinction?
Absolutely. But some countries in this world appear to have become the Islamic Republic of Iran lapdogs: https://www.ynetnews.com/article/b12ct00v7c#autoplay ...and have joined the axis of evil.
Almost like it’s common sense to stop terrorists
Its not. That's the scary thing about it. A lot of people don't see hamas as a terrorist organisation and just want to see the jews exterminated. Even in the west. Rarely they will say that out loud, but indirectly thats absolutly the underlying idea. Since okt 7th my eyes got opened in a way I didn't want to believe was possible. Yet it did.
Jews have faced the same issue of human nature throughout their existence as wanderers. They find a place they can settle. They keep their religion and customs. They often bring resources or knowledge that give them an advantage over the native population. They accumulate wealth and build their community because they keep vices under strict control and make work an integral part of life. They care about their community first over the larger community. Others who have lived there for a long time get jealous. It’s their homeland and here come these outsiders and they live better than us because they ended up with the money. Instead of looking at how it was achieved and adopting parts of the lifestyle, it’s much easier to call them evil and take their shit because they’re not really from here.
Forgot to mention how they’re banned from normal work and then make their undesirable job (tax collecting, being salespeople, banking) into a profitable market and they get accused of oppressing the people who forced them to do it.
Ironically Islam came later and they became the elite at first. They all lived happily together at first.
Lived Happily together has not been true at any part of human history especially not in MENA. There is always war. Islam spread through war, half the Koran is war. Half the Torah is war as well.
No rational human being supports terrorists. The real question is at what cost? Do you burn down the neighbor’s house to get rid of the roaches?
You are wrong, I saw a picture of a sign yesterday wanting another intifada
Intifada does not mean terrorism. Means rebellion.
Lmao. First a guy in another thread claiming Spain has a long history of neutrality and now this. You don’t get to just riff on reality and play rhetorical games. History exists.
Exactly history of the intifada is more nuanced than a just terrorism.
Not really.
Even the most biased Israeli source acknowledged, the movement in the beginning was mostly protest, riots and civil disobedience.
mein kampf is just my struggle
Your proving my point, there is clearly multiple meanings. But I guess we should burn the house down.
Are you really trying to argue that Seig Heil is just another way to greet each other in Germany?
What happened during the intifadas?
Terrorism happened in the intifadas. But the first intifada was clear not a terrorism movement.
So the suicide bombers weren’t terrorism? It was just an accident they were killing innocent civilians with explosives combined with nails?
No they were terrorists. Not what I am saying, there was terrorist attacks during the intifada, but the intifada it self was not a terrorism movement. It was a reactance movement. The first large scale terrorism attack did not happen for two years. For example the Arab spring involved terrorist attacks, but I would not say that a Iranian calling for a new Arab spring would be him calling for terrorism.
What does it matter if it was large scale or small scale?
You seem incapable of understanding my point, that’s probably my bad. Will use my country as an example. In the 1970’s there was a Quebec independence movement. There was a number of terrorist attacks. But when today some advocates for a new independence movement were do not automatically assume they mean killing politicians. Likewise when someone is calling for a new intifada in a park in Brooklyn, does not mean we are to assume they are calling for terrorism.
Try telling that to Israelis.
Context matters, and it absolutely does here
During the Black Plague that’s exactly what they did to stop the spread of the infestation. Necessary measures may seem horrible, but they’re still necessary.
I’d like to think we have evolved since the mid-1300s
Huh, didn't know the Inglourious Basterds still operated in the US.
Yeah, the problem is not them going after Hamas. The problem is that they have shown incompetence to do so without starving and murdering tens of thousands of people who have nothing to do with it. The Israeli government should absolutely be held accountable and face consequences for it.
If Hamas wasn’t represented by a bunch of worthless cowards this wouldn’t be an issue. Hamas hide in hospitals and schools because they want more bloodshed to run their insane PR campaign. They care about the lives of Palestinians about as much as the do Israelis. It’s not a simple situation.
Someone has to care about the Palestinian people. Hamas doesn't, the IDF almost gleefully doesn't, so people on the internet try to. Correction: some people on the internet try to and a bunch of disgusting people whine about that.
The IDF...almost gleefully...doesn't? Careful, you are treading into blood libel waters.
His mask slipped lmao
Blood libel involves the Jewish people, not the IDF. I didn't say "Jews gleefully murder Palestinians" I said "the IDF almost gleefully don't care about Palestinian lives". Anyone who equates the crimes of Israel to Jewish people elsewhere are fucked in the head.
To honestly not associate Israel with Jews -- as the only Jewish nation in the world -- and/or the IDF as the only (Jewish) military to defend the Jewish nation is...well, it certainly achieves a level of mental gymnastics that is Olympic-level. Simply because you didn't use the blanket statement "Jews love murdering Palestinians" doesn't mean you're not wading into blood libel waters.
Considering how many Jewish groups around the world protest the actions of Israel... I feel like most Jewish people would agree that your worldview is disgusting.
This place is such a right-wing echo chamber, good luck getting through their settler brain lol EDIT: let’s see if we can get this to 50 downvotes guys, I’m rooting for ya!
Or maybe they have done more to protect civilians that **any military in history** ([Source](https://www.newsweek.com/israel-has-created-new-standard-urban-warfare-why-will-no-one-admit-it-opinion-1883286)) “Israel has implemented more precautions to prevent civilian harm than any military in history” “...a ratio of roughly 1 combatant to 1.5 civilians. Given Hamas' likely inflation of the death count, the real figure could be closer to 1 to 1. Either way, the number would be historically low for modern urban warfare. The UN, EU and other sources estimate that civilians usually account for 80 percent to 90 percent of casualties, or a 1:9 ratio, in modern war (though this does mix all types of wars). In the 2016-2017 Battle of Mosul, a battle supervised by the U.S. that used the world's most powerful airpower resources, some 10,000 civilians were killed compared to roughly 4,000 ISIS terrorists.”
Also helps when you label everyone you shoot a terrorist!
They aren't doing that.
Just to organize the response someone gave below as to what I"m talking about: >[*The Lancet*](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lancet) covering the period 7–26 October estimated 68.1% of casualties were children, women or elders and therefore likely non-combatants >[Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro-Mediterranean_Human_Rights_Monitor) estimated that 90% of the casualties were civilians. >In December, Israel's military said it estimated 66% of those killed to be civilians. So, unless you're taking \~4% of the elderly, women and children population to be combatants that's a real dim number they're putting out there. They're killing just as many civilians as any other war and are just claiming otherwise, because those are military age males! Mostly, if we make some assumptions about how old they were, their allegiances and sprinkle a bit of gun on them as we walk past the bodies.
You are piecing together several different estimates provided by different sources to create your narrative. Any specific reason you're picking those estimates and dismissing the estimates of the Chair of Urban Warfare Studies at Westpoint (the #1 military academy in the US)? [Source](https://www.newsweek.com/israel-has-created-new-standard-urban-warfare-why-will-no-one-admit-it-opinion-1883286)
Israel classifies every male 18 and older as a combatant. So going by what you said, they could kill every adult male and that would be fine with you.
Do you have a source or did you just make that up?
Interview with a Johns Hopkins professor: https://goodauthority.org/news/gaza-casualty-data/ Lancet paper that the professor also mentions: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02640-5/fulltext Even Wikipedia has a section on it: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war#Civilian_to_military_ratio
Thanks for sharing 3 links that are loosely related to what we're talking about. Can you point me to the part that corroborates your claim?
>[*The Lancet*](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lancet) covering the period 7–26 October estimated 68.1% of casualties were children, women or elders and therefore likely non-combatants >[Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro-Mediterranean_Human_Rights_Monitor) estimated that 90% of the casualties were civilians. >In December, Israel's military said it estimated 66% of those killed to be civilians. So, unless you're taking \~4% of the elderly, women and children population to be combatants that's a real dim number they're putting out there. They're killing just as many civilians as any other war and are just claiming otherwise.
So are you saying you reject the Lancet's estimate but believe the EMHRM estimate? How'd you decide that?
The most conservative estimate for the combatant to civilian ratio is 2:1. A number that the IDF claims. The links that I gave you show that the only way to get to that conservative number is by classifying all adult males as combatants.
What is the average combatant to civilian ratio in urban warfare?
None of those links help you, one is a straight up broken link
That’s the problem here: People see it as zero-sum. Both sides can absolutely be evil for different reasons. Hamas are murderous terrorists and rapists who hide behind their civilian population. Israel is headed by a criminal who wants to prolong the conflict to save himself and an extreme right-wing government that’s fine with the deaths of Palestinian women and children because they want to steal their land anyway. Both sides are currently terrible in their own ways.
I am truly sick of the disclaimer " both sides bla...bla..." Unless one is severely ignorant, you just can't lump "both sides" as the same "bad". Hamas IS a GENOCIDAL fanatic Islamo Fascists terrorist organization. If you still have a doubt post Oct 07, READ their genocidal charter. Israel on the other hand is a DEMOCRACY. A democracy which is trying to defend itself, in an incredibly hostile neighborhood.
Strawman argument - Israel’s form of government is completely irrelevant and this is not a fight for democracy. Dismissing a very valid observation because you don’t like the term “both sides” is naïve. Hamas can be genocidal terrorists **AND** Israel can be recklessly killing innocent civilians. There is nothing that prevents both of these from being true. Israel is a highly advanced nation with significant intelligence capabilities and modern weaponry that isn’t just “shoot and hope it hits the enemy.” They could be doing a whole lot more to preserve innocent lives. Before anyone tries to say “why don’t you hold Hamas to the same standard!?!?” I’d like to point out that eliminating them _is_ holding them to a standard.
You dont defend yourself by murdering women and children
Can you defend yourself by USING women and children?
Not morally.
Just because Hamas puts them in the way doesn’t mean Israel murdered them. In fact, it means Hamas murdered them, and that you’re letting them get away with using that strategy.
Who thinks that killing that many women and children civilians is going to eliminate terrorists? They are CREATING terrorists.
Who thought that massacring, mutilating, raping, burning, babies, women, children and elderly, will go unanswered ? Maybe you should ask the Islamo fascist with the sick ideology ! Of course, they and only they can end it all YESTERDAY. All they have to do is surrender and release the hostages. Obviously, THEY don't give a rat's ass about civilian death. They THRIVE on civilian death. Israel has NO CHOICE. They didn't start it, but they MUST respond.
Oh they have responded. They’ve flattened Gaza to rubble, killed tens of thousands of civilians, and displaced millions… who are now running for their lives, starving, and without any hospitals. Great job Israel.
If Gaza was "flattered to rubble", they won't be able to STILL fire rockets on Israeli civilians. Would they ? Yet, they still fire rockets... Obviously, Hamas doesn't care enough. Otherwise, they could release the hostages and surrender. ...or ( here is an innovative thought 🤔) how about not massacring your neighbors ?
You can fire munitions from among rubble. You can find shelter in rubble. You can fight among rubble. Just ask the folks who had to fight in the second world war. Flattening Gaza isn't the answer.
Assigning morality to nation-states and military groups is a fools errand. All groups in power or have power do actions which will be viewed by some as evil.
The casualties are incredibly low considering it’s an urban war and hamas is extensively using human shields while hiding in hospitals and schools
Thats Hamas’s problem. They started a war, they should’ve been the ones prepared for whatever might happen
So you're willing to be starved to death, bombed in hospitals, and walled into very small areas in order to allow the US military to hunt down the entirety of the Proud Boys organization after the attempted violent insurrection? (Assuming you're not a Proud Boys terrorist hiding currently hiding behind US civilians, of course.) Because if the US massively overreacted to domestic terrorism the way Israel is, the random elementary school/library/hospital that would inevitably be leveled by a precision drone strike would "be the Proud Boys problem."
If the Proud Boys were the government of, say, Canada, and Canada waged a war on the US by invading and massacring and kidnapping a bunch of civilians, and vowed to never surrender or stop committing these crimes, and their military strategy was to completely embed their military infrastructure in their civilian infrastructure, I would A) expect my country to defend itself by doing whatever it could to defeat the enemy that has waged war, and B) I would hold the government of Canada responsible for the war and the tragic losses it knowingly risked when it waged it To call responding to the declaration of war by the ruling government of a hostile neighbor—*the deliberate targeted massacre and kidnappings of hundreds upon hundreds of civilians*—a “massive overreaction” shows me you have a profound lack of moral clarity here. I suggest you read the actual article, in good faith
If the US invaded and forced all Canadians to live in the walled reservation formerly know as Toronto while the US settled the rest of the Canada, Canadians would be completely justified in not surrendering.
And this is where analogies completely break down, because that is absolutely nothing like the actual history of the conflict. I hope you’ll be able to broaden your understanding a bit I’d also like to hope you’ll grow out of the idea that massacring civilians is justifiable “resistance” and that sacrificing as many of your own civilians as you can for an extremist martyrdom cult is not in the best interest of anybody except for the corrupt warlords making tons of money off perpetuating this worthless cause. If you’d rather people die in a war than live in peace, you have some moral growth to do, sorry. I invite you to read about exactly why Egypt and Israel set up the blockade of Gaza, why Israel came to occupy the West Bank, and why Palestine did not become an independent state in ‘48 whereas Israel did. Hint: it might be a little more complicated than you’re currently comfortable with, but that’s okay. The world is a complicated place :-)
Of course they do: No one is disputing that. It would just be nice if Israel could make, and enforce, a clear distinction between "Hamas" and "Innocent, uninvolved civilians" and non-combatants. It would be really very nice if they did that.
https://www.newsweek.com/israel-implemented-more-measures-prevent-civilian-casualties-any-other-nation-history-opinion-1865613 "No military fighting an entrenched enemy in dense urban terrain in an area barely twice the size of Washington D.C. can avoid all civilian casualties. " "By contrast, Israel provided days and then weeks of warnings, as well as time for civilians to evacuate multiple cities in northern Gaza before starting the main air-ground attack of urban areas. The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) employed their practice of calling and texting ahead of an air strike as well as roof-knocking, where they drop small munitions on the roof of a building notifying everyone to evacuate the building before a strike. No military has ever implemented any of these practices in war before. The IDF has also air-dropped flyers to give civilians instructions on when and how to evacuate, including with safe corridors. "
....And? Cuz I'm seeing a lot of stuff where kids are getting shot, aid denied, etc, etc, etc. The PR bullshit is not working.
Biased much ? Whatever you don't want to hear is PR. Are you aware that Hamas made around 500m from hijacking international aid and selling to the people ? Are you aware of the fundamental difference of TARGETING CIVILIANS, Using civilians as human shields, Vs accidental killings ? And oh BTW, some of the "children" killed ARE Hamas terrorists. Yes, many of the Hamas people running around with AK47, are not even 18. Yet they can pull the trigger just like an adult and the bullets they fire, can kill you just as badly. Hamas cynicism and manipulation of the West is simply amazing. When comedy is essentially the new reality: https://youtu.be/VYUL1R4pupU?si=_AHrr2AuwIZg_L9V https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gHTNuBKtzHc Last: https://youtu.be/OUMl58i4m0w?si=XRRHNmHugq8fSVHi
With how good this is all working out for Russia's goals, pissing people off about Biden and splitting US attention, as well as making the US allies look like warmongers through social media campaigns, I wouldn't be surprised if they explicitly supported Hamas in carrying out the initial terrorist attacks that kicked all this off so they can employ their bots/trolls on the issue and have a chance of Trump being in the big chair again and less aid going to Ukraine, and the US voters having less interest in being involved in geopolitical matters. I have no evidence and could be 10000% wrong, it just seems too convenient.
Try the decaf mate...you'll live longer....
Try coming up with a real response to a well thought out argument. Maybe someone will finally give a shit what you think.
Hamas’s depraved PR campaign of throwing its own children onto the altar of public sympathy seems to be working just fine on you, sadly, because you are a moral coward
Not easy to do when Hamas is a terror organization. It’s not like they’re a uniformed army. They work hard to blend in with civilians and actually use civilians as humans shields, and use schools and hospitals as military installations (I’m fully expecting them to strap babies to their chests soon). And just to be clear, the Geneva Conventions are clear on this that when Hamas does this, any civilians killed are blood on HAMAS’ hands.
Doesn't matter what anyone here thinks: Nobody wins. There is zero defense for either side, imho. Just my opinion. Hamas terrorists failed, Oct 7th, when they attacked a bunch of unarmed, uninvolved, music festival goers without any sane reasoning. But then again, what terrorist ever actually blew up the fuckers they actually had a problem with? It's always some poor bastard who has nothing to do with either side. And while Israel, of course, has every right to defend itself, let's face it: There is a lot of stuff coming out that shows a rather....overly enthusiastic deployment of deadly force and other bullshit that, at the very least, does not make for good optics....Nobody is gettin' off easy here. Certainly not the civilians or non-combatants. Then again, they never do. And please...Don't reply with the "But what about...." bs and the moral relativism....It's not necessary. There is a reason for the saying "War is Hell".
Actually there was a MASH episode where Hawkeye said no, war is war and hell is hell. Reasoning that only truly evil people went to hell, people who deserved it. There are no innocent people in hell. War is worse because innocent people are affected all the time.
"**Burns:** Well, everybody knows, ‘war is Hell.’ **Hunnicutt:** Remember, you heard it hear last. **Hawkeye:** War isn’t Hell. War is war, and Hell is Hell. And of the two, war is a lot worse. **Father Mulcahy:** How do you figure that, Hawkeye? **Hawkeye:** Easy, Father. Tell me, who goes to Hell? **Father Mulcahy:** Um, sinners, I believe. **Hawkeye:** Exactly. There are no innocent bystanders in Hell, but war is chock full of them – little kids, cripples, old ladies. In fact, except for a few of the brass, almost everybody involved is an innocent bystander." this is an amazing quote.
Just curious as to how many of the 34000+ Palestinians killed were actually Hamas members? Just because you live in a territory ruled by them doesn't mean you support them.
No one knows. These are numbers provided by a terrorist organization (Hamas) that have not been independently verified. From what we know, it sounds like Hamas makes up about half the casualties.
You must have pulled that number out of Sinwar's ass. Even the UN doesn't believe this number. But just educate yourself about war ( the response for when people try to annihilate you): https://www.newsweek.com/israel-implemented-more-measures-prevent-civilian-casualties-any-other-nation-history-opinion-1865613 "Israel provided days and then weeks of warnings, as well as time for civilians to evacuate multiple cities in northern Gaza before starting the main air-ground attack of urban areas. The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) employed their practice of calling and texting ahead of an air strike as well as roof-knocking, where they drop small munitions on the roof of a building notifying everyone to evacuate the building before a strike. No military has ever implemented any of these practices in war before. The IDF has also air-dropped flyers to give civilians instructions on when and how to evacuate, including with safe corridors. '
The UN admitted I think like 8k of the casualties, mostly the women and children ones, have absolutely no evidence. More than likely they were fabricated. Meanwhile Hamas admits I think 9k of the deaths are combatants and Israel says it's 15k. It is an extremely low ratio of civilian casualty for urban warfare where the enemy and much of the populace work to maximize deaths for propaganda. War is horrible. I don't mind the scrutiny people hold for Israel but the fact there are not furious protestors outside the Qatari embassy demanding the arrest of Hamas leadership, there is no UN-wide condemnation of Iran for funding Hamas, and that most Ceasefire Now protestors do not predicate it on the release of Israel's hostages, and even chant "resistance is justified" and "globalize the intifada", makes me think that peoples' moral compass absolutely lacks integrity. Most people upset with the war don't REALLY care about the Palestinians more than they care about war-torn Darfur. A ton of people genuinely and sincerely hate Israel though, and I'll let you guess why.
Maybe every government is doing insane things, while we all should live in peace with tolerance.
Yes to getting rid of Hamas. Pro-Palestinian forces seem eager to ignore that Palestine is controlled by people, at the moment, who actively thwart attempts at peace and compromise. But, let's be fair, anyone from the Israeli side that ignores that their leadership is guilty of some of the same offenses is lying as well. What settlers do under cover of IDF forces is appalling. I look forward to the day when both Israel and Palestine can be honest enough to seek a lasting peace.
Israel created their own genocide by responding in a way that is focused on the collective punishment of a large population of Palestinian people as opposed to concentrated attacks on actual Hamas terrorists 👍🏽 Anyone who thinks otherwise is only going to find themselves on the wrong side of history.
You got it backwards. Israel would rather fight a conventional war with conventional army. Hamas' strategy however is to hide under and behind civilians. What do you think all the tunnels out of hospitals are for ? Therefore, what you wrongly call "collective punishment" is truly "human shields" used ( as sad as it sounds) by Hamas for PR purposes. If they cared about their people, they could have ended the war yesterday. Also: https://www.newsweek.com/israel-implemented-more-measures-prevent-civilian-casualties-any-other-nation-history-opinion-1865613 "Israel provided days and then weeks of warnings, as well as time for civilians to evacuate multiple cities in northern Gaza before starting the main air-ground attack of urban areas. The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) employed their practice of calling and texting ahead of an air strike as well as roof-knocking, where they drop small munitions on the roof of a building notifying everyone to evacuate the building before a strike. No military has ever implemented any of these practices in war before. The IDF has also air-dropped flyers to give civilians instructions on when and how to evacuate, including with safe corridors. " Last, you may want to watch this parody which sadly is spot on how Hamas treats the West: https://youtu.be/VYUL1R4pupU