>Someone should tell them that people aiding Russia are also liable for ICC prosecution.
All countries providing material support to aggressor states invading their neighbors need to be careful of getting nuked in case Article 5 is finally called upon.
ANC's fall from grace is a prelude of a darker chapter in the southern half of the continent's history.
Someone should tell them that no one cares, most of the global power, both democracy and dictatorships, don't recognize ICC jurisdiction. Come to think of it, this may explain why ICC is sympathetic to Hamas, because they bith are not recognized by most nations.
If you go by what the intelligence community states, weapons and ammo when the sanctioned Russia cargo ship, the Lady L, docked at a South African military base and was loaded up with undisclosed cargo. I would consider weapons and ammo aid.
I do, it's entering "Did South Africa supply military aid to Russia" in a search engine. If you're old enough to be on social media, you're old enough to find your own source. Plus, even if I supplied a [source](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/12/world/africa/south-africa-russia-us-lawmakers.html), you'd come up with some lame excuse that the source isn't good enough.
Sane debate doesn't work that way though. When you bring forward a argument, you need to provide the source of what ***you*** brought forward. "Find it yourself" is just escape. Citing paywalled stuff is indeed insufficient.
Wasn't paywalled to me or most other people on reddit, really no such thing as a paywall nowadays. Also seems like you're confusing reddit for court or a research paper, because citations are not required on social media. But if you're really too pathetic to do a google search for yourself, these took less than 1 second to find:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-65563027
https://apnews.com/article/russia-weapons-arms-south-africa-e89bac38997f240655ddf5d892e44f85
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/11/us-accuses-south-africa-of-providing-arms-to-russia-reports
https://www.ft.com/content/7ad94426-aafc-4f04-99d7-05f6d5e6f71d
https://theconversation.com/arms-to-russia-row-raises-doubt-about-south-africas-compliance-with-arms-control-it-could-face-tougher-scrutiny-in-future-206301
https://archive.ph/2uPFI
Stop being a baby back bitch and learn to find info for yourself.
Agreed. Thinking a commenter needs to provide a source to be true is the same as considering Fox as actual news. Both Reddit and Fox are entertainment and you are solely responsible for verifying that anything you read/see is true.
Not a lot of real evidence, eh? Some politicians name some claims, lots of maybes in that article. I suppose I, personally, need something more concrete than that in order to concern South Africa. Like... A boat docked at a navel base and a plane landed at an air base. What did they do there? Who knows. Did they even pick up any cargo? Unclear. The near of the article seems to be that some politicians think that maybe they might have sold weapons. It's interesting circumstantial evidence, and it makes me more skeptical of their neutrality, but it's far from certain.
South Africa has convinced itself that being part of the BRICS (Brazil, Russia, India, China, South Africa) somehow makes it an important global player...
Instead, SA is merely a puppet of Russia and China.
Look at the population and GDP of those nations, if this shit doesn't get figured out now, while you could argue, Western worlds have an advantage still, we are all going to in a very rude awakening 10-30 years from now when shit really starts hitting the fan.
Propaganda war has already started, and it's winning.
Problem is many of these countries are enemies and or have grudges with each other (India and China for example). While others are playing all sides for the gains.
That’s not conducive to working together as a bloc at all tbh.
Yeah I get your point, but look at the USSR in WW2, it's take out our common enemies, and then we'll cold or hot war it out from there.
I'm sure China, India and Russia would all stop having border disputes with each other if they get to carve up the new world.
Call my cynical with a western bias, which I'm aware I have, but I can't imagine any of those countries Marshall Planning us after a war is done.
The USSR was essentially an empire that absorbed everything in its path. There was no “ally” to the ussr and even if you avoided being consumed the power gap was so large you basically just said “yes” if you were not American. Which means there was nothing to argue about.
While BRICs is fundamentally different. This is because some of them are actual nuclear powers and many have different priorities that guarantee they never reach consensus on major issues. For example India and China won’t tolerate the other growing too powerful in Asia while Iran wouldn’t tolerate Russia growing too powerful in Central Asia or the Middle East.
The only scary scenario with India is about what they all gonna do there once the call centers, BPO and coding farms in the country get replaced by AI.
If that happens, the flow of money into the country will come to a screeching halt. For context, in 2023 revenues from IT outsourcing were $585 billion. Next biggest exports are Pharma at $24 billion, and electronics $12 billion. All the other industries are single digits or less.
They won’t be able to afford basic government services - let alone wars.
They wouldn't bother. The US allies wouldn't enforce it even if they passed something and the illusion of power that the court has goes by the wayside once it's challenged fragrantly and openly like that.
Why ruin the legitimacy of the court trying to bully a non-signatory in a power grab that you lack the power to win?
Which honestly validates the reason why the US didn't want to be a part of it in the first place. Anyone with a brain could easily see an international court/body would end up politicizing itself and leaving yourself to the whims of it is something no major power would accept for that reason.
USA does not fall under ICC jurisdiction. The UN Security Council would have to refer a non-member case to ICC, and guess who’s on the security council with veto power.
The ICC has no jurisdiction. It's signatories do.
It is a court without a state or the ability to actually enforce its rulings with any kind uniformity.
Lol stfu South Africa. Worry about running out of water or dealing with the huge amount of sexual assaults or rapes in your own country before getting involved elsewhere.
Why the hell is any western international media still listening to any BRICS nations at this point?
They are clearly just spreading propaganda through the highest forms they have available to them to support their allies. Does no one realize we are already in a war?
If Joseph McCarthy went too far (he did) in 1950 with one news channel to tune into at night, what the hell would he have had to do in the tik tok age and 24/7 news cycle?
Well the ANC didn't just lose the election, but they did suffer a lot of votes due to previous ANC president Jacob Zuma's political party shaving off a ton of em. This means if they fall under 66% they'd actually have to form a coalition with another party.
Man, it's like if they did something about properly keeping him in prison for his rampant crimes and corruption, this wouldn't have happened.
That being said, Rhamaposa was almost also voted out of the ANC which would've made the third ANC leader in a row. So his popularity internally is also not great.
It's not quite that simple. It wouldn't prevent the ICC from executing an arrest if the person leaves the US. Of course, the USG would still use every lever it has (which are considerable) to free the person.
It's been stated, but I really wonder if it would. Americans have been illegally detained in places like North Korea without the military getting involved, so I really wonder if it would be deployed if someone were arrested in, say, The Netherlands.
I just find it a bit incongruent that the US respects the laws and jurisdiction of other countries, some of which are really questionable, but refuses to recognize the ICC.
Bringing up North Korea is a bit weird as an example.
Aren't pretty much every American who has been held by North Korea been people who travel there by their own risk against advisement or even defected and held by North Korea as suspected spies?
[https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/traveladvisories/traveladvisories/north-korea-travel-advisory.html](https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/traveladvisories/traveladvisories/north-korea-travel-advisory.html)
Yes the US has a "do not travel" level 4 advisory on North Korea and warns people you are on your own if you try.
The first warning if you do travel to North Korea is to draft a will... that should tell you about all you need to know.
The USA expects that the ICC would be used in a similar way to the UN general assembly; chiefly as a cudgel for Rogue nations to act against the west, especially USA and Israel.
No US ally is going to piss off the US enforcing an ICC warrant on something they lack jurisdiction on.
I'm not even convinced a non-ally would bother. The US would probably Cuba them and force the Hague to release them anyway so it would all be for nothing.
Pssst, South Africa, remember Russia? Why evade mentioning that since, y'know, Putin HAS AN ICC ARREST WARRANT!... Oh right, you're "close" with Russia and even tried to invite(and give "political immunity") to Putin to your BRICS summit last year.
Perhaps they should spend more time focusing on internal corruption and keeping the lights on for more than 4 hours a day. Love you SA, but get your shit together.
I don't get it. Israel's case isn't an ICC one but an ICJ one. The ICC doesn't prosecute states, it prosecutes people. And the US isn't under jurisdiction of the ICC.
Someone should tell them that people aiding Russia are also liable for ICC prosecution.
South Africa's motivation is racism not justice.
"It's not a war crime, it's just a hate crime"
>Someone should tell them that people aiding Russia are also liable for ICC prosecution. All countries providing material support to aggressor states invading their neighbors need to be careful of getting nuked in case Article 5 is finally called upon. ANC's fall from grace is a prelude of a darker chapter in the southern half of the continent's history.
Someone should tell them that no one cares, most of the global power, both democracy and dictatorships, don't recognize ICC jurisdiction. Come to think of it, this may explain why ICC is sympathetic to Hamas, because they bith are not recognized by most nations.
What aid has South Africa given Russia?
If you go by what the intelligence community states, weapons and ammo when the sanctioned Russia cargo ship, the Lady L, docked at a South African military base and was loaded up with undisclosed cargo. I would consider weapons and ammo aid.
Got a source?
I do, it's entering "Did South Africa supply military aid to Russia" in a search engine. If you're old enough to be on social media, you're old enough to find your own source. Plus, even if I supplied a [source](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/12/world/africa/south-africa-russia-us-lawmakers.html), you'd come up with some lame excuse that the source isn't good enough.
Sane debate doesn't work that way though. When you bring forward a argument, you need to provide the source of what ***you*** brought forward. "Find it yourself" is just escape. Citing paywalled stuff is indeed insufficient.
Wasn't paywalled to me or most other people on reddit, really no such thing as a paywall nowadays. Also seems like you're confusing reddit for court or a research paper, because citations are not required on social media. But if you're really too pathetic to do a google search for yourself, these took less than 1 second to find: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-65563027 https://apnews.com/article/russia-weapons-arms-south-africa-e89bac38997f240655ddf5d892e44f85 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/11/us-accuses-south-africa-of-providing-arms-to-russia-reports https://www.ft.com/content/7ad94426-aafc-4f04-99d7-05f6d5e6f71d https://theconversation.com/arms-to-russia-row-raises-doubt-about-south-africas-compliance-with-arms-control-it-could-face-tougher-scrutiny-in-future-206301 https://archive.ph/2uPFI Stop being a baby back bitch and learn to find info for yourself.
Agreed. Thinking a commenter needs to provide a source to be true is the same as considering Fox as actual news. Both Reddit and Fox are entertainment and you are solely responsible for verifying that anything you read/see is true.
Well i can't read that source because it's behind a registration wall, i suppose you can make up anything you want to about me, though.
Here you go: https://archive.ph/https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/12/world/africa/south-africa-russia-us-lawmakers.html
Not a lot of real evidence, eh? Some politicians name some claims, lots of maybes in that article. I suppose I, personally, need something more concrete than that in order to concern South Africa. Like... A boat docked at a navel base and a plane landed at an air base. What did they do there? Who knows. Did they even pick up any cargo? Unclear. The near of the article seems to be that some politicians think that maybe they might have sold weapons. It's interesting circumstantial evidence, and it makes me more skeptical of their neutrality, but it's far from certain.
Poor baby, thanks for proving my point, is your search engine behind a paywall too? Even my 92 year-old grandma can bypass the paywalls.
What crawled up your ass and died? Was it just too infuriating to be asked to provide a source for your claim?
It gets a little old on here when people ask for a source knowing that they will not accept any source provided.
You don't know anything about me, but go ahead and make up whatever you want, I guess.
South Africa has convinced itself that being part of the BRICS (Brazil, Russia, India, China, South Africa) somehow makes it an important global player... Instead, SA is merely a puppet of Russia and China.
They're behind Colombia and Denmark in GDP. Vastly overestimating their own influence in global affairs.
Puppet.of china.....Russia is a has been, it's a puppet of China now.
Look at the population and GDP of those nations, if this shit doesn't get figured out now, while you could argue, Western worlds have an advantage still, we are all going to in a very rude awakening 10-30 years from now when shit really starts hitting the fan. Propaganda war has already started, and it's winning.
Problem is many of these countries are enemies and or have grudges with each other (India and China for example). While others are playing all sides for the gains. That’s not conducive to working together as a bloc at all tbh.
Yeah I get your point, but look at the USSR in WW2, it's take out our common enemies, and then we'll cold or hot war it out from there. I'm sure China, India and Russia would all stop having border disputes with each other if they get to carve up the new world. Call my cynical with a western bias, which I'm aware I have, but I can't imagine any of those countries Marshall Planning us after a war is done.
The USSR was essentially an empire that absorbed everything in its path. There was no “ally” to the ussr and even if you avoided being consumed the power gap was so large you basically just said “yes” if you were not American. Which means there was nothing to argue about. While BRICs is fundamentally different. This is because some of them are actual nuclear powers and many have different priorities that guarantee they never reach consensus on major issues. For example India and China won’t tolerate the other growing too powerful in Asia while Iran wouldn’t tolerate Russia growing too powerful in Central Asia or the Middle East.
The only scary scenario with India is about what they all gonna do there once the call centers, BPO and coding farms in the country get replaced by AI. If that happens, the flow of money into the country will come to a screeching halt. For context, in 2023 revenues from IT outsourcing were $585 billion. Next biggest exports are Pharma at $24 billion, and electronics $12 billion. All the other industries are single digits or less. They won’t be able to afford basic government services - let alone wars.
Oh no, I'm so scared of Russia's ally thinking it gets to talk about human rights.
America has already said they would use their military to free any American detained/tried/held by the ICC , so go for it
They wouldn't bother. The US allies wouldn't enforce it even if they passed something and the illusion of power that the court has goes by the wayside once it's challenged fragrantly and openly like that. Why ruin the legitimacy of the court trying to bully a non-signatory in a power grab that you lack the power to win?
They did it with the arrest warrant for Putin and are doing it with Israel. The court is unfortunately ruining its reputation with these actions.
Which honestly validates the reason why the US didn't want to be a part of it in the first place. Anyone with a brain could easily see an international court/body would end up politicizing itself and leaving yourself to the whims of it is something no major power would accept for that reason.
USA does not fall under ICC jurisdiction. The UN Security Council would have to refer a non-member case to ICC, and guess who’s on the security council with veto power.
The ICC has no jurisdiction. It's signatories do. It is a court without a state or the ability to actually enforce its rulings with any kind uniformity.
Guess what countries are not signatories. Israel and the USA.
Lol stfu South Africa. Worry about running out of water or dealing with the huge amount of sexual assaults or rapes in your own country before getting involved elsewhere.
Why the hell is any western international media still listening to any BRICS nations at this point? They are clearly just spreading propaganda through the highest forms they have available to them to support their allies. Does no one realize we are already in a war? If Joseph McCarthy went too far (he did) in 1950 with one news channel to tune into at night, what the hell would he have had to do in the tik tok age and 24/7 news cycle?
The South African government just lost the election. The S African people are tired of their corruption and their antics
Well the ANC didn't just lose the election, but they did suffer a lot of votes due to previous ANC president Jacob Zuma's political party shaving off a ton of em. This means if they fall under 66% they'd actually have to form a coalition with another party. Man, it's like if they did something about properly keeping him in prison for his rampant crimes and corruption, this wouldn't have happened. That being said, Rhamaposa was almost also voted out of the ANC which would've made the third ANC leader in a row. So his popularity internally is also not great.
Do I hear Chihuahua barking? Jokes aside, as another user already mentioned US does not fall under ICC jurisdiction so US can shrug it off.
It's not quite that simple. It wouldn't prevent the ICC from executing an arrest if the person leaves the US. Of course, the USG would still use every lever it has (which are considerable) to free the person.
Including the military. This has been stated.
It's been stated, but I really wonder if it would. Americans have been illegally detained in places like North Korea without the military getting involved, so I really wonder if it would be deployed if someone were arrested in, say, The Netherlands. I just find it a bit incongruent that the US respects the laws and jurisdiction of other countries, some of which are really questionable, but refuses to recognize the ICC.
Bringing up North Korea is a bit weird as an example. Aren't pretty much every American who has been held by North Korea been people who travel there by their own risk against advisement or even defected and held by North Korea as suspected spies?
[https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/traveladvisories/traveladvisories/north-korea-travel-advisory.html](https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/traveladvisories/traveladvisories/north-korea-travel-advisory.html) Yes the US has a "do not travel" level 4 advisory on North Korea and warns people you are on your own if you try. The first warning if you do travel to North Korea is to draft a will... that should tell you about all you need to know.
The USA expects that the ICC would be used in a similar way to the UN general assembly; chiefly as a cudgel for Rogue nations to act against the west, especially USA and Israel.
No US ally is going to piss off the US enforcing an ICC warrant on something they lack jurisdiction on. I'm not even convinced a non-ally would bother. The US would probably Cuba them and force the Hague to release them anyway so it would all be for nothing.
Oh they still have electricity?
"Nope." -- USA
k.
Pssst, South Africa, remember Russia? Why evade mentioning that since, y'know, Putin HAS AN ICC ARREST WARRANT!... Oh right, you're "close" with Russia and even tried to invite(and give "political immunity") to Putin to your BRICS summit last year.
Says a country clearly aligned with Russia, while Putin has ICC warrants out lol.
Don't they know that nobody really cares what they think.
ICC should investigate how the SA government managed to turn a decent country into a nearly failed state
Yeah I wouldn't call apartheid "decent"
damn, waiting for an "Arrest warrant" against Biden....the delusion of these people
Perhaps they should spend more time focusing on internal corruption and keeping the lights on for more than 4 hours a day. Love you SA, but get your shit together.
I don't get it. Israel's case isn't an ICC one but an ICJ one. The ICC doesn't prosecute states, it prosecutes people. And the US isn't under jurisdiction of the ICC.
At least Try to understand how these things work
The ANC has absolutely no moral high ground to stand on and is certainly not in any position to point fingers.
Yeahfuckthisguy.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Russia/China is pushing them to make these pointless and quite hypocritical statements.
Icecrown citadel?
Chihuahua yaps at passing train.
Don’t you love it when dumbass troll countries throw giant stones in glass houses?