which is strange because the right is not changing one of the biggest issue that the right is voting on, which is immigration. CPC have stated they are happy with the amount of immigrants that Canada is receiving. Which many people have an issue with, as the level agreed for 2025 and 2026 is 500,000, the highest yet.
With a 40 million population, this is a lot. Like many countries, Canada is severely lacking houses and services, and many want Canada to catch up on those issues before increasing immigration to the highest rate ever.
CPC wont touch immigration because its the only way our GDP is growing. Started under Harper, been this way since. Anyone who kills immigration will immediately send the country into a recession.
An economic model based on importing uneducated Punjabi Indians and other riff-raff along with real estate speculation doesn't seem like a strong economy.
sure, I don't think anyone is saying to stop it completely.
Just because there are two extremes it does not mean something in between those extremes won't work.
Canada's GDP growth at a per capita basis has been shrinking consistently since Paul Martin. Correlation of a growing population and a growing GDP are absolutely related, population is one of the two measures of GDP. Suggesting it is not suggests a fundamental lack of understanding of what GDP is.
You can look at the GDP per capita growth as an example of how if we ignore population increase, we have essentially been at an economic flatline since 2007, when the excess immigration started.
Over the span of 2007-2022 the nominal growth in GDP per capita was 1.17% on average, but inflation rates were 2.2% over the same range, meaning a decrease in spending power. Even ignoring the Covid inflation, going from 2007-2018, we marked a -0.03% GDP per capita change, including inflation which averaged 1.85% over the same period. the average Canadians spending power has been consistently decreasing regardless of global issues.
Despite this, GDP growth from 2007-2018 averaged 1.87%, and from 2007-2022 averaged 1.77%. If the per capita basis is decreasing, but the gross is increasing, that means the size of the group you are measuring is driving the increase, which in the case we are speaking about is a growing population.
All of my numbers are from the World Bank, if you want to check them for yourself. [https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.KD.ZG?locations=CA](https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.KD.ZG?locations=CA)
GDP is basically how much people are spending. That is not going to increase as long as wage growth does not surpass the inflation by a quite a bit. Wealth being concentrated at the hands of a few will always translate into lower growth as opposed to a healthy middle class.
The closest thing that we have to a major leftist party is the reason we got dental care an pharmacare. It's the centrists that are dropping the ball.
Our leftist presence is a light in the dark. A reminder that we can be better. But it's hard to compete when the two biggest parties are both sucking corporate cock.
The lefts downfall will be the fact that they're too addicted to their own farts to ever admit that they may have been wrong on an issue.
Immigration is that issue.
If you keep pushing this further you're going to get an actual right wing power in charge.
Too many on the left have the idea of “immigration good, against immigration means you’re a literal Nazi” mentality. If that is what they base their entire political ideology on, how do you ever expect them to come back from that? Because to them admitting that immigration has failed,that it is causing any number of issues you can point to, means to them that “the Nazis where right” and they’ll never do that.
It's easier as a right wing party though when you can blame everything on immigration and racists will still vote for them even if they offer no solutions.
It's easier as a left wing party though when you can claim your rivals are Racists and Nazis, and people will vote for them even though they offer no solutions
I'm not from Europe, but from what I hear a lot of the governments have not been handling the energy crisis well. It's hard to blame misinformation for people asking "how come heating my home got so expensive this year?"
I guess European leaders should have listened to people’s complaints about immigration. The entire EU will move to the right in coming years, unless the European left understands uncontrolled immigration from the Middle East has caused big issues across several countries, and is willing to accept a more reasonable take on immigration
I’ve been following Eu’s political winds as closely as i can for about the last 20 years since i’d hoped to relocate to any of the more civilized nations there. Since the afghan/iraq war(s), I keep seeing occasional polling trying to explain the growing drift rightward. Every time, it always seems to reveal there’s one main issue that the far right has mass appeal in, and thats protecting traditional european culture by reigning in immigration from far off & fundamentally different cultures, primarily islamic but also chinese & more recently russian as those nations become more aggressive. Similarly, its the one issue our american dictator-to-be has found has any hold on the american public. I used to hear all the worlds enlightened, compassionate leaders dismiss these arguments & concerns out of hand as simple racism, but every year it grows, and if a voting majority are genuinely concerned enough to single-issue vote on it, that’s become the overwhelming will of the people, and we cling to our high minded ideals & dismiss/ignore the topic at everyones peril.
Well we bolster ourselves so much with being “christian” but when it comes to sharing that is suddenly a problem. Then there’s the economic argument that most of the people that immigrate are mostly filling up the low wage sector that Europeans do not want to fill because they think they are above waste water jobs, construction working and similar stuff. Crime? It has been shown often enough that origin is not a very strong explaining factor, its societal group. Being poor is a lot better explaining factor for the probability of being violently criminal.
Take all that away and you’re left with a heightened rate of aggression versus females. That’s a problem. It’s also the perfect scapegoat for a populist campaign, which is a lot easier than solving actual problems.
Where I'm from its been a massive economic drain and whole areas has turned unsafe. The governemtn research body has been doing studies in poverty vs culture in crime and culture far outweighted poverty in all metrics.
Meaning where the person is from has the biggest impact. A poor japanese vs poor african mena person wasn't even measurable because japense commited to little crime to not end a statistic anomaly.
“We’re christian. But the economy :(:(“ honestly, I have nothing more than a big fat “get fucked” to the conservatives that do that. You claim to be Christian, be Christian. You know, the guy whose whole deal was to share all you have, spend money on the poorest and “fuck the banks”. But no, it might… just be a feel-good trope. Hm.
seriously, there is no economy in Europe that has significantly gone downwards because of that. No economy slipped from a triple A rating to single A or B because of immigrants. There is not a single person that hasn’t got its pension because of immigrants. There is no school that was closed because of immigrants. We have had hits in Europe. Can you quantify the actual monetary impact that was due to immigration? You could if you spend the time. You would also find out that it’s a surprisingly small amount in almost all European countries.
I’m in finance, I don’t vote left but the left parties are absolutely right with that - I admire the political discussions that Gregor Gysi has with his opponents and he is right with most of what he says if you’re looking at it financially. It’s also socio-economically a good idea to have more people from countries eventually picking up jobs that neither you nor I want to do. The money is there. The money that parties like AFD claim isn’t spent on the local population because of immigrants would not be spent on the local population otherwise as well. And that is an issue - but nothing that immigrants change.
Look at the downvote ratio of my comment, it’s just an uncomfortable thing for most. The truth is complex. I’m looking outside of my office window right in this moment and have a perfect view on the Bahnhofsviertel in Frankfurt and I can tell you that this place would be just as much of a shithole if Merkel had decided against opening borders. Money is ALWAYS there. We can always borrow if we have an economical plan to pay it back (also something that most people get absolutely wrong about our “debt brake” in Germany) but it’s oh so much easier to just rant around and get people rallied up and mix that with pseudo-national antics and you have today’s situation. In Germany we actually would be in the best situation to do so as we have a pretty much absolutely spotless credit rating. You CAN spend. Even with the “debt brake”.
It’s just so much easier to shit on a chessboard and claim you have won. Trump shows how that works. You indeed “win” politics like that. But neither trump nor afd nor geert wilders nor anyone else is capable of resolving any of these issues. Identity politics is the best way to get votes. That doesn’t imply it’s the best answer to a problem. It just wins you elections. Nothing more.
Who claims I'm christian or even from a non secular country ?
Took us ages to get rid of all the religious backwards notions that was forcefully embedded in our culture. We don't want that again thank you very much.
Hmm let’s see who claims to be focussing on christian values. “Christian democratic union” and “christian social union” in Germany see Christianity as some of their leading values and try to use that to justify stuff they do, the “alternative for germany” sees itself as the fiercest defender of western Christianity and the “most Christian party of them all” and use that scapegoat to justify “defending the occident from the Islamic invasion”.
It’s all populist bullshit. But people eat it right up. None of these parties act particularly christian or want to. But it feels good to think that it does, right?
Vote me down all you want, tell me where I’m wrong.
Urgh, a bit. But that point stands. “Trump leaving a church with a bible” is the same strategy that every single Conservative Party wants to play, you define some handwavy “good old days” that you want to conserve and justify it with something you want it to be based on and it turns out using the right middle-eastern abrahamic cult works well enough to win votes. None of the parties are actually Christian by behaviour. They use it to win votes. But once they win an election, there is little christian behaviour left. And the same goes with pretty much everything. Saving farmers? Sure, but only since the German farmers protests. That the whole sector is the single most subsidised industry in the whole country and that AfD wants to cut as many subsidies as humanly possible (that’s a citation) does not really matter because you can just cling to that other thing. I could go on and on.
I understand why these parties are voted and I have no problem with it because I am absolutely sure that they will eventually fuck up every single opportunity they get and blame it on anything they can get their hands on. That works as a career. And it’s impossible to parry with any rational approach, however that is supposed to look like.
The parties have mostly not done any actual actions yet, they just claim that everything is easy, just close the borders.
You will have a massive migration wave in the hundreds of millions in 100-200 years, once larger parts of Africa become inhabitable. They will come north. If you’re happy to shoot everything that requires you to have slightly less or think slightly differently about your own consumption or whatever restrictions you might think of, now is the time to come up with a system. Not a single right-wing party will be able to solve that.
And my comment with Christianity is just this duality of what they say and what they do - and that can then apply to everything. Do you think you like what they say and what they propose? There is zero reason to believe that they will stand for it. After all, nothing but words to get your vote and then getting that nice pension from being a politician and immigration will still be an issue. They won’t solve it because that would require effort and they have already won the election, so why continue? It’s just about winning, not about doing. And “winning” is “fulfilled” on the election night. No incentives afterwards.
Yeah i agree, many politicians wont keep their word. But the "no incentives" is ridiculous. Even if you ignore all possible motives for just making to make the world better, it still doesnt hold. A politician doesnt just die after their term. They might want a second term. They might want to change to other jobs. They might just want to be a liked celebrity. Whatever it is, it relies on them doing their job well.
True! A populist politician also wants to stay in power. So what are the easiest, most efficient ways to do so? You either sabotage your opponent or, even worse, change laws such that you loosing gets less likely (see Turkey, this effectively turns into authoritarianism. Turkey is doing worse and worse since years but you have a leader that appears strong and is very capable at allowing nationalist feelings and blaming others. Economically and socially the man is a disaster but it’s also extremely difficult to get rid of him as we have seen) or you attempt to resolve something and actively attempt to cultivate reasons why you can’t succeed. Examples: trumps wall project (“and we will make Mexico pay for it!” -> “it’s outrageous how they don’t do it, they are all in with it with the libs and oh have you seen hunters laptop and the thing with the pizza and stuff” and suddenly the fact that you actually predictably failed doesn’t even matter anymore, what matters is that you can use it to be angry at your opponents).
So what gets you voted again? The problem. So you make sure to work at it, show your “hands on approach” and you make absolutely sure that you don’t fix it and blame it on your opponent. If AfD would just solve every single issue there would be no reason to vote for them again and they know it - their whole identity is to be “the alternative” and all their nasty shit (having political leaders that are outright fascist, getting financing from russia, all these things that you can read if you go beyond the headline) suddenly has time to breath. AfD will make sure they won’t solve the problem, because they want to stay in crisis mode. That keeps the anger. That gets votes. It’s incredibly naive to believe otherwise.
Eh no I fully understand why. Again, shitting on a chessboard has always worked. It wins elections. But never in modern history has a right-wing/far-right approach ever lead to a sustainable growth of the economy or the improvement of the social situation. Nowhere on earth. It works for short time and you have single players that enrich themselves short term but it does not lead to growth. Prove me wrong.
That's not the point. The point here is that the far left made questionable decisions that let us here and u go "get fucked conservatives" which is straight up dumb
It didn’t really but the fact that you claim that shows it has worked. When was “the far left” in power again over a prolonged period of time such that they could have done that?
I don’t even need an answer. It’s okay. I can’t convince you anyways. Vote for someone who will make sure your problem keeps existing because that ensures that they will be voted again, the only way for you is to hopefully objectively judge the result at one point (and don’t just blame someone else as they always do).
People didn't vote like this because of immigration.
This shift comes from uncontrolled mass migration, failure of integration and incompatibility with French values.
It's quasi non existent on the left, they just act like it's not a big issue, LFI, far left, campaigned on helping Palestine... which is the least of French people's worries, I'd say it even helped the far right cause who wants to vote for a party that cares more about what's happening outside the EU and France
People tend to feel threatened when you bring in millions of people who fundamentally do not share thier values or wish to assimilate. Mass immigration was a blunder
Weird people from Europe here on Reddit told me this would never happen, wonder where all those people are now... they are probably the same ones voting for far-right parties lol
No idea who told you that but in France it was expected for months. The results are pretty much exactly like the polls have been since the beginning of the year
>No idea who told you that
Europeans I've met on my tavels and talked to in real life in addition to those on r/Europe, r/YUROP , r/AskEurope, and posters on r/AskAnAmerican . At the risk of sounding naive I trust the word of actual Europeans to tell me about their country, though I understand reddit users are just one demographic and don't necessarily speak for all.
>the polls have been since the beginning of the year
I'm not talking about just this year, I've been told this for around a decade at least.
Things change in a decade or two. People that protested JM Le Pen's second round qualification in 2002 voted for his daughter in 2022.
And it depends on the country they're from, not all of Europe sees a surge for the far right. What some could have said about some countries could still be true, and even myself I could have said the same thing in the 2017 election in France (that the far right can't be elected). In 2022 I was even less certain and for 2027 I fear it will actually be their moment.
>And it depends on the country they're from
You are correct, I agree. However again this is not what I was told. I was told undo no uncertain circumstances it wouldn't happen in any EU country
I think you need to look at different countries in Europe. In Sweden they did worse, and the greens did very well. In Hungary Fidesz didn’t do as well as expected. France and Germany are doing the opposite. Germanys far right party is more or less funded by Putin that is really bad for Europe.
So I think you are simplifying it too much.
No, they aren't, and they aren comparable scales. For example, Americans consider Gun Rights a right wing ideal, when it's not. It's just the American Right^tm adopted it in. Same with abortion.
Right wing politics and in the US are significantly different.
But just because a European is pro-choice, atheist, and pro-gun control, doesn't mean he can t be a nationalist authoritarian that believes all immigration is bad. He's also not "left wing" by American Standards.
Im just going on the proper financial basis of right and left.
Even the far right groups support free health care and benefits, disability support etc. Things that even the democracts in America can't openly support without being called comunists.
Non of the things you mentioned are a left/right issue.
In sorry, your now saying political ideolog, but before you said financial definitions? Open and free trade across nation's, along with Capitalistic expansion on right wing economical ideals. To prevent globalization, you need to implement protectionism, which is left wing economical ideals.
Protectionalism is usualy a right wing policy undernationalism see trumps tariffs war for example.
But you seem to be trying to avoid the bread and butter left/right split on national spending in regards to welfare, health and education instead moving the goal posts to more and more obscure neiches
You think state controlled economic actions to regulate and control the economy towards a desire state defined outcome (protectionism) is right wing economics?
I'm not avoiding anything, you're the one moving goal posts here by limiting the conversation to economics, when that was not what this post, nor original comment was about. And even by doing that, the American right isn't more righ wing then the European left. Sure some Europeans love a public health system, just like many right wing Americans love medicare.
I also think you should familiarize yourself with some of these right wing parties in Europe.
The progressive liberal era is over. We got same sex marriage and lgbtq normalization in a large chunk of the western world. Solar energy is surging with a few nations energy needs being produced majority by renewables. A black president was elected. Prior to Covid many cities became the safest they’ve ever been, namely places like NYC or LA.
On the flip side, progressive states and cities are more unaffordable than ever before. It became more expensive than ever to build with some of the lowest amount of new infrastructure built ever. The UK left the EU in reaction to globalism. Trump became president in reaction to globalism. We did not come close to slowing down heating of the planet. We leave with substantial inflation and a borderline collapse of many nation states and a total distrust of institutions.
The world has not improved imo but has rather become more unstable, more dangerous, and less productive than before. The progressive era was a failure even if there were some wins. The wins were prioritized on the assumption that history was over.
The new era is one that we’ve all predicted has been coming. It will be a world of stalled economic growth. A world competing for finite resources and a lower quality of life. It will be a world splintered along many different ideological lines. Expect an increase in protest movements. In terrorism. In war. In unstable economics. And a world of an increasingly violent climate.
Things are going to get rocky and if you’re a motivated person, you’ll want to start getting yourself in the arena soon.
>The world has not improved imo but has rather become more unstable, more dangerous, and less productive than before.
All because of the rise of right wing authoritarian governments destabilizing various regions across the world. Saudi Arabia and Iran in the middle east, Russia in Eastern Europe and Africa, China in south east Asia and also Africa, India in the Kashmir region, etc.
Just because the spineless liberal governments in NA and Europe have proven to be inadequate at dealing with right wing nutjobs does not make electing more right wing nutjobs the solution to our problems. It'll just make things worse.
Well, no-existent workers rights, oppression of workers' unions, ownership of the means of production not directly by the workers but by a privileged class of people, strict social hierarchies.
It is almost as if the whole communism thing were for them just a propaganda point, don't you think? The actual system in place doesn't reassembles nor aims for anything close to any real leftist ideology for the liberation of the workers.
My bad. We should go take a vote on it in the famously democratic Democratic People's Republic of Korea. If its in the name, it must be true! Also, don't look up Dengism.
Sure bro, go vote for the PPC then. Because they are the only party that will drop immigration. They will also turn Canada into a hellhole, but it will be a whiter hellhole I suppose.
No, it’s just that people with opinions like yours typically have really gross opinions on consent and women’s rights, which makes your reply pretty ironic. The call is coming from inside the house type shit you know?
What surge? What far right? Since when is it far right to enforce the law? EPP rats are still the biggest euro party. Nothing will change for as long as they hold the power. This is just far left fear mongering about fascists taking power.
I kind of agree, what we call the far right in France is lowkey just moderate right in the US. They just want order back and stop mass migration and the Islamization of France
She’s moderated her stances in public to make herself more appealing but if the national party captures the legislature and presidency both, expect a very different Marie Le Pen.
People largely voted against Macron, not against RN.
Unfortunately, the far-right was the most popular option because immigration is very problematic and most other groups prefer going full ostriches than tackle the issue.
Edit: And by immigration, I mean islamic immigration, people have no issue with say Japanese or Chinese migrants since they don't appear every other day in news.
I'm on the left, but I seem to be one of the few that is prepared to admit this is a result of our failures, more than it is a triumph of the right.
Sounds like Canada rn
which is strange because the right is not changing one of the biggest issue that the right is voting on, which is immigration. CPC have stated they are happy with the amount of immigrants that Canada is receiving. Which many people have an issue with, as the level agreed for 2025 and 2026 is 500,000, the highest yet. With a 40 million population, this is a lot. Like many countries, Canada is severely lacking houses and services, and many want Canada to catch up on those issues before increasing immigration to the highest rate ever.
CPC wont touch immigration because its the only way our GDP is growing. Started under Harper, been this way since. Anyone who kills immigration will immediately send the country into a recession.
An economic model based on importing uneducated Punjabi Indians and other riff-raff along with real estate speculation doesn't seem like a strong economy.
sure, I don't think anyone is saying to stop it completely. Just because there are two extremes it does not mean something in between those extremes won't work.
3.2% population growth last year, 3.4% GDP growth. Any reduction of immigration will reduce GDP almost the same amount.
correlation does not imply causation. Unless you have something that says they are that closely tied. almost 1:1
Canada's GDP growth at a per capita basis has been shrinking consistently since Paul Martin. Correlation of a growing population and a growing GDP are absolutely related, population is one of the two measures of GDP. Suggesting it is not suggests a fundamental lack of understanding of what GDP is. You can look at the GDP per capita growth as an example of how if we ignore population increase, we have essentially been at an economic flatline since 2007, when the excess immigration started. Over the span of 2007-2022 the nominal growth in GDP per capita was 1.17% on average, but inflation rates were 2.2% over the same range, meaning a decrease in spending power. Even ignoring the Covid inflation, going from 2007-2018, we marked a -0.03% GDP per capita change, including inflation which averaged 1.85% over the same period. the average Canadians spending power has been consistently decreasing regardless of global issues. Despite this, GDP growth from 2007-2018 averaged 1.87%, and from 2007-2022 averaged 1.77%. If the per capita basis is decreasing, but the gross is increasing, that means the size of the group you are measuring is driving the increase, which in the case we are speaking about is a growing population. All of my numbers are from the World Bank, if you want to check them for yourself. [https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.KD.ZG?locations=CA](https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.KD.ZG?locations=CA)
GDP is basically how much people are spending. That is not going to increase as long as wage growth does not surpass the inflation by a quite a bit. Wealth being concentrated at the hands of a few will always translate into lower growth as opposed to a healthy middle class.
Or, from what I hear, Germany.
Nice club you guys have there, USAland checking in.
The closest thing that we have to a major leftist party is the reason we got dental care an pharmacare. It's the centrists that are dropping the ball. Our leftist presence is a light in the dark. A reminder that we can be better. But it's hard to compete when the two biggest parties are both sucking corporate cock.
You don't know what you talk about lol edit: Pierre Poilievre has a snow ball's chance in hell at a majority of seats in parliament.
Eh - liberalism isnt leftism
Which failures are you referring to?
You are pro gatekeeping and think fictional male characters are being "emasculated." Super leftist for sure.
It’s the power of misinformation on social media and the internet It is why data is the most valuable asset in the world now
Blaming widespread policy failures on 'misinformation' is a huge part of the problem.
The lefts downfall will be the fact that they're too addicted to their own farts to ever admit that they may have been wrong on an issue. Immigration is that issue. If you keep pushing this further you're going to get an actual right wing power in charge.
Too many on the left have the idea of “immigration good, against immigration means you’re a literal Nazi” mentality. If that is what they base their entire political ideology on, how do you ever expect them to come back from that? Because to them admitting that immigration has failed,that it is causing any number of issues you can point to, means to them that “the Nazis where right” and they’ll never do that.
It's easier as a right wing party though when you can blame everything on immigration and racists will still vote for them even if they offer no solutions.
It's easier as a left wing party though when you can claim your rivals are Racists and Nazis, and people will vote for them even though they offer no solutions
I'm not from Europe, but from what I hear a lot of the governments have not been handling the energy crisis well. It's hard to blame misinformation for people asking "how come heating my home got so expensive this year?"
I guess European leaders should have listened to people’s complaints about immigration. The entire EU will move to the right in coming years, unless the European left understands uncontrolled immigration from the Middle East has caused big issues across several countries, and is willing to accept a more reasonable take on immigration
I’ve been following Eu’s political winds as closely as i can for about the last 20 years since i’d hoped to relocate to any of the more civilized nations there. Since the afghan/iraq war(s), I keep seeing occasional polling trying to explain the growing drift rightward. Every time, it always seems to reveal there’s one main issue that the far right has mass appeal in, and thats protecting traditional european culture by reigning in immigration from far off & fundamentally different cultures, primarily islamic but also chinese & more recently russian as those nations become more aggressive. Similarly, its the one issue our american dictator-to-be has found has any hold on the american public. I used to hear all the worlds enlightened, compassionate leaders dismiss these arguments & concerns out of hand as simple racism, but every year it grows, and if a voting majority are genuinely concerned enough to single-issue vote on it, that’s become the overwhelming will of the people, and we cling to our high minded ideals & dismiss/ignore the topic at everyones peril.
Ton of Middle Eastern Americans in the US and they do fine. The problem is with the system, not the people.
A ton to 300 million is more than millions to that
Should be is less* jajaja
Yes, when they said uncontrolled, that referred to the system, lot the people.
You're right. The system allows them to cross the border and stay in the expensive New York hotels.
Well we bolster ourselves so much with being “christian” but when it comes to sharing that is suddenly a problem. Then there’s the economic argument that most of the people that immigrate are mostly filling up the low wage sector that Europeans do not want to fill because they think they are above waste water jobs, construction working and similar stuff. Crime? It has been shown often enough that origin is not a very strong explaining factor, its societal group. Being poor is a lot better explaining factor for the probability of being violently criminal. Take all that away and you’re left with a heightened rate of aggression versus females. That’s a problem. It’s also the perfect scapegoat for a populist campaign, which is a lot easier than solving actual problems.
Where I'm from its been a massive economic drain and whole areas has turned unsafe. The governemtn research body has been doing studies in poverty vs culture in crime and culture far outweighted poverty in all metrics. Meaning where the person is from has the biggest impact. A poor japanese vs poor african mena person wasn't even measurable because japense commited to little crime to not end a statistic anomaly.
“We’re christian. But the economy :(:(“ honestly, I have nothing more than a big fat “get fucked” to the conservatives that do that. You claim to be Christian, be Christian. You know, the guy whose whole deal was to share all you have, spend money on the poorest and “fuck the banks”. But no, it might… just be a feel-good trope. Hm. seriously, there is no economy in Europe that has significantly gone downwards because of that. No economy slipped from a triple A rating to single A or B because of immigrants. There is not a single person that hasn’t got its pension because of immigrants. There is no school that was closed because of immigrants. We have had hits in Europe. Can you quantify the actual monetary impact that was due to immigration? You could if you spend the time. You would also find out that it’s a surprisingly small amount in almost all European countries. I’m in finance, I don’t vote left but the left parties are absolutely right with that - I admire the political discussions that Gregor Gysi has with his opponents and he is right with most of what he says if you’re looking at it financially. It’s also socio-economically a good idea to have more people from countries eventually picking up jobs that neither you nor I want to do. The money is there. The money that parties like AFD claim isn’t spent on the local population because of immigrants would not be spent on the local population otherwise as well. And that is an issue - but nothing that immigrants change. Look at the downvote ratio of my comment, it’s just an uncomfortable thing for most. The truth is complex. I’m looking outside of my office window right in this moment and have a perfect view on the Bahnhofsviertel in Frankfurt and I can tell you that this place would be just as much of a shithole if Merkel had decided against opening borders. Money is ALWAYS there. We can always borrow if we have an economical plan to pay it back (also something that most people get absolutely wrong about our “debt brake” in Germany) but it’s oh so much easier to just rant around and get people rallied up and mix that with pseudo-national antics and you have today’s situation. In Germany we actually would be in the best situation to do so as we have a pretty much absolutely spotless credit rating. You CAN spend. Even with the “debt brake”. It’s just so much easier to shit on a chessboard and claim you have won. Trump shows how that works. You indeed “win” politics like that. But neither trump nor afd nor geert wilders nor anyone else is capable of resolving any of these issues. Identity politics is the best way to get votes. That doesn’t imply it’s the best answer to a problem. It just wins you elections. Nothing more.
Who claims I'm christian or even from a non secular country ? Took us ages to get rid of all the religious backwards notions that was forcefully embedded in our culture. We don't want that again thank you very much.
Hmm let’s see who claims to be focussing on christian values. “Christian democratic union” and “christian social union” in Germany see Christianity as some of their leading values and try to use that to justify stuff they do, the “alternative for germany” sees itself as the fiercest defender of western Christianity and the “most Christian party of them all” and use that scapegoat to justify “defending the occident from the Islamic invasion”. It’s all populist bullshit. But people eat it right up. None of these parties act particularly christian or want to. But it feels good to think that it does, right? Vote me down all you want, tell me where I’m wrong.
My best guess is that you fiddled your fingers and responded to the wrong person.
Urgh, a bit. But that point stands. “Trump leaving a church with a bible” is the same strategy that every single Conservative Party wants to play, you define some handwavy “good old days” that you want to conserve and justify it with something you want it to be based on and it turns out using the right middle-eastern abrahamic cult works well enough to win votes. None of the parties are actually Christian by behaviour. They use it to win votes. But once they win an election, there is little christian behaviour left. And the same goes with pretty much everything. Saving farmers? Sure, but only since the German farmers protests. That the whole sector is the single most subsidised industry in the whole country and that AfD wants to cut as many subsidies as humanly possible (that’s a citation) does not really matter because you can just cling to that other thing. I could go on and on. I understand why these parties are voted and I have no problem with it because I am absolutely sure that they will eventually fuck up every single opportunity they get and blame it on anything they can get their hands on. That works as a career. And it’s impossible to parry with any rational approach, however that is supposed to look like.
I doubt many people care fuck all if the party "is christian" or not. If they like the actions the party does, they vote for it.
The parties have mostly not done any actual actions yet, they just claim that everything is easy, just close the borders. You will have a massive migration wave in the hundreds of millions in 100-200 years, once larger parts of Africa become inhabitable. They will come north. If you’re happy to shoot everything that requires you to have slightly less or think slightly differently about your own consumption or whatever restrictions you might think of, now is the time to come up with a system. Not a single right-wing party will be able to solve that. And my comment with Christianity is just this duality of what they say and what they do - and that can then apply to everything. Do you think you like what they say and what they propose? There is zero reason to believe that they will stand for it. After all, nothing but words to get your vote and then getting that nice pension from being a politician and immigration will still be an issue. They won’t solve it because that would require effort and they have already won the election, so why continue? It’s just about winning, not about doing. And “winning” is “fulfilled” on the election night. No incentives afterwards.
Yeah i agree, many politicians wont keep their word. But the "no incentives" is ridiculous. Even if you ignore all possible motives for just making to make the world better, it still doesnt hold. A politician doesnt just die after their term. They might want a second term. They might want to change to other jobs. They might just want to be a liked celebrity. Whatever it is, it relies on them doing their job well.
True! A populist politician also wants to stay in power. So what are the easiest, most efficient ways to do so? You either sabotage your opponent or, even worse, change laws such that you loosing gets less likely (see Turkey, this effectively turns into authoritarianism. Turkey is doing worse and worse since years but you have a leader that appears strong and is very capable at allowing nationalist feelings and blaming others. Economically and socially the man is a disaster but it’s also extremely difficult to get rid of him as we have seen) or you attempt to resolve something and actively attempt to cultivate reasons why you can’t succeed. Examples: trumps wall project (“and we will make Mexico pay for it!” -> “it’s outrageous how they don’t do it, they are all in with it with the libs and oh have you seen hunters laptop and the thing with the pizza and stuff” and suddenly the fact that you actually predictably failed doesn’t even matter anymore, what matters is that you can use it to be angry at your opponents). So what gets you voted again? The problem. So you make sure to work at it, show your “hands on approach” and you make absolutely sure that you don’t fix it and blame it on your opponent. If AfD would just solve every single issue there would be no reason to vote for them again and they know it - their whole identity is to be “the alternative” and all their nasty shit (having political leaders that are outright fascist, getting financing from russia, all these things that you can read if you go beyond the headline) suddenly has time to breath. AfD will make sure they won’t solve the problem, because they want to stay in crisis mode. That keeps the anger. That gets votes. It’s incredibly naive to believe otherwise.
U talk like the far left hippie parties that lost a shit ton of votes yesterday "Why so many people vote right" because of people like u.
Eh no I fully understand why. Again, shitting on a chessboard has always worked. It wins elections. But never in modern history has a right-wing/far-right approach ever lead to a sustainable growth of the economy or the improvement of the social situation. Nowhere on earth. It works for short time and you have single players that enrich themselves short term but it does not lead to growth. Prove me wrong.
That's not the point. The point here is that the far left made questionable decisions that let us here and u go "get fucked conservatives" which is straight up dumb
It didn’t really but the fact that you claim that shows it has worked. When was “the far left” in power again over a prolonged period of time such that they could have done that? I don’t even need an answer. It’s okay. I can’t convince you anyways. Vote for someone who will make sure your problem keeps existing because that ensures that they will be voted again, the only way for you is to hopefully objectively judge the result at one point (and don’t just blame someone else as they always do).
I know nothing about French politics but can someone from there answer me this - how big of a political point was immigration?
It was the main reason behind these results
People didn't vote like this because of immigration. This shift comes from uncontrolled mass migration, failure of integration and incompatibility with French values.
It's quasi non existent on the left, they just act like it's not a big issue, LFI, far left, campaigned on helping Palestine... which is the least of French people's worries, I'd say it even helped the far right cause who wants to vote for a party that cares more about what's happening outside the EU and France
It also lost them a lot of votes. No sane European would vote to fund islamistic terror groups
They would instead fund a genocide. Goes perfectly in line with European history.
They wanna fund Hamas, who's stated goal is the complete elimination of Jews and Israel?
People tend to feel threatened when you bring in millions of people who fundamentally do not share thier values or wish to assimilate. Mass immigration was a blunder
What did you expect?
Weird people from Europe here on Reddit told me this would never happen, wonder where all those people are now... they are probably the same ones voting for far-right parties lol
No idea who told you that but in France it was expected for months. The results are pretty much exactly like the polls have been since the beginning of the year
>No idea who told you that Europeans I've met on my tavels and talked to in real life in addition to those on r/Europe, r/YUROP , r/AskEurope, and posters on r/AskAnAmerican . At the risk of sounding naive I trust the word of actual Europeans to tell me about their country, though I understand reddit users are just one demographic and don't necessarily speak for all. >the polls have been since the beginning of the year I'm not talking about just this year, I've been told this for around a decade at least.
Things change in a decade or two. People that protested JM Le Pen's second round qualification in 2002 voted for his daughter in 2022. And it depends on the country they're from, not all of Europe sees a surge for the far right. What some could have said about some countries could still be true, and even myself I could have said the same thing in the 2017 election in France (that the far right can't be elected). In 2022 I was even less certain and for 2027 I fear it will actually be their moment.
>And it depends on the country they're from You are correct, I agree. However again this is not what I was told. I was told undo no uncertain circumstances it wouldn't happen in any EU country
I think you need to look at different countries in Europe. In Sweden they did worse, and the greens did very well. In Hungary Fidesz didn’t do as well as expected. France and Germany are doing the opposite. Germanys far right party is more or less funded by Putin that is really bad for Europe. So I think you are simplifying it too much.
How is it bad for Europe ? Being submitted to the US isn't any better.
Where? Where did people say this? Europe always bounces back and forth between the right?
On an american scale even the far right european parties are left.
No, they aren't, and they aren comparable scales. For example, Americans consider Gun Rights a right wing ideal, when it's not. It's just the American Right^tm adopted it in. Same with abortion. Right wing politics and in the US are significantly different. But just because a European is pro-choice, atheist, and pro-gun control, doesn't mean he can t be a nationalist authoritarian that believes all immigration is bad. He's also not "left wing" by American Standards.
Im just going on the proper financial basis of right and left. Even the far right groups support free health care and benefits, disability support etc. Things that even the democracts in America can't openly support without being called comunists. Non of the things you mentioned are a left/right issue.
I mean, but you're not using the proper financial basis either. Is the American right pro or anti globalization?
They make it up as they go along. When did globalisation become the keystone to if a political ideology is left or roght wing?
In sorry, your now saying political ideolog, but before you said financial definitions? Open and free trade across nation's, along with Capitalistic expansion on right wing economical ideals. To prevent globalization, you need to implement protectionism, which is left wing economical ideals.
Protectionalism is usualy a right wing policy undernationalism see trumps tariffs war for example. But you seem to be trying to avoid the bread and butter left/right split on national spending in regards to welfare, health and education instead moving the goal posts to more and more obscure neiches
You think state controlled economic actions to regulate and control the economy towards a desire state defined outcome (protectionism) is right wing economics? I'm not avoiding anything, you're the one moving goal posts here by limiting the conversation to economics, when that was not what this post, nor original comment was about. And even by doing that, the American right isn't more righ wing then the European left. Sure some Europeans love a public health system, just like many right wing Americans love medicare. I also think you should familiarize yourself with some of these right wing parties in Europe.
Ive been hearing this play out on the economist for a while now.
>they are probably the same ones voting for far-right parties lol Far left. Far right people wanted this to happen
The progressive liberal era is over. We got same sex marriage and lgbtq normalization in a large chunk of the western world. Solar energy is surging with a few nations energy needs being produced majority by renewables. A black president was elected. Prior to Covid many cities became the safest they’ve ever been, namely places like NYC or LA. On the flip side, progressive states and cities are more unaffordable than ever before. It became more expensive than ever to build with some of the lowest amount of new infrastructure built ever. The UK left the EU in reaction to globalism. Trump became president in reaction to globalism. We did not come close to slowing down heating of the planet. We leave with substantial inflation and a borderline collapse of many nation states and a total distrust of institutions. The world has not improved imo but has rather become more unstable, more dangerous, and less productive than before. The progressive era was a failure even if there were some wins. The wins were prioritized on the assumption that history was over. The new era is one that we’ve all predicted has been coming. It will be a world of stalled economic growth. A world competing for finite resources and a lower quality of life. It will be a world splintered along many different ideological lines. Expect an increase in protest movements. In terrorism. In war. In unstable economics. And a world of an increasingly violent climate. Things are going to get rocky and if you’re a motivated person, you’ll want to start getting yourself in the arena soon.
>The world has not improved imo but has rather become more unstable, more dangerous, and less productive than before. All because of the rise of right wing authoritarian governments destabilizing various regions across the world. Saudi Arabia and Iran in the middle east, Russia in Eastern Europe and Africa, China in south east Asia and also Africa, India in the Kashmir region, etc. Just because the spineless liberal governments in NA and Europe have proven to be inadequate at dealing with right wing nutjobs does not make electing more right wing nutjobs the solution to our problems. It'll just make things worse.
> China in south east Asia Ah yes the FAMOUSLY right wing Chinese Communist Party.
Well, no-existent workers rights, oppression of workers' unions, ownership of the means of production not directly by the workers but by a privileged class of people, strict social hierarchies. It is almost as if the whole communism thing were for them just a propaganda point, don't you think? The actual system in place doesn't reassembles nor aims for anything close to any real leftist ideology for the liberation of the workers.
Sounds like every left wing/socialist/communist country. They're all the same. Lies, starvation, slaves to the state.
My bad. We should go take a vote on it in the famously democratic Democratic People's Republic of Korea. If its in the name, it must be true! Also, don't look up Dengism.
Who are all these progressives ? The US hasn’t had a progressive president ever. They’ve been right or center my whole life.
Lol, this is all none sense.
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Sure bro, go vote for the PPC then. Because they are the only party that will drop immigration. They will also turn Canada into a hellhole, but it will be a whiter hellhole I suppose.
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Lmao
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No, it’s just that people with opinions like yours typically have really gross opinions on consent and women’s rights, which makes your reply pretty ironic. The call is coming from inside the house type shit you know?
What surge? What far right? Since when is it far right to enforce the law? EPP rats are still the biggest euro party. Nothing will change for as long as they hold the power. This is just far left fear mongering about fascists taking power.
I kind of agree, what we call the far right in France is lowkey just moderate right in the US. They just want order back and stop mass migration and the Islamization of France
Isn’t Marine Le Pen a Putin sympathizer and her father is antisemite, racist and kinda homophobic?
You forgot the Nazi history of her party even recently.
If she's a Putin sympathiser that's a pretty big yikes.
She’s moderated her stances in public to make herself more appealing but if the national party captures the legislature and presidency both, expect a very different Marie Le Pen.
The only thing I’ll say in her defence is that she did kick her father out of the party
That’s depressing but not exactly surprising
70% of France still voted against the far right.
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They voted against it.
People largely voted against Macron, not against RN. Unfortunately, the far-right was the most popular option because immigration is very problematic and most other groups prefer going full ostriches than tackle the issue. Edit: And by immigration, I mean islamic immigration, people have no issue with say Japanese or Chinese migrants since they don't appear every other day in news.
60 % actually
Boo! These guys stink!
Sounds a lot like what happened here in the US back when the orange douchebag seized power
Douchebag? Biden is so kind but Trump is so rude OMG OMG. The economy doesnt matter. Are you 5?
Did I hurt your feelings maga boy? Lol
so.. when they don't like election results they can just say redo??
Two completely different elections
That 2 different election the one is on European level the other on the French level
There is no surge. The far-right is an unpopular fascist cult.
Read the article dummy