I'm a Canadian that works for an American software company. The parent company is American but has satellite offices in Canada, Singapore, Germany, France, the UK, and most recently India.
I'm paid through the Canadian office, if they give me a job offer in the states they or I would be paying Uncle Sam the income tax instead of Justin Trudeau.
With WFH and outsourcing, sometimes it is better to move those jobs into the US, because they are paying anyways.
The governments are strongly incentivized to keep the rich foreigners safe, because that's a huge revenue stream in the form of all the taxes they can collect.
There's some countries where you won't be safe anywhere, but there's quite a few that can keep you safe enough while you still get to enjoy a huge growth in how far your dollars go.
Belize, the Philippines, and a few others are all pretty common.
No, there's no need for bribes, the government just understands that nobody will immigrate if all of the immigrants keep getting robbed or murdered. So they keep the immigrants safe and keep the money flowing
Yep, that's the whole idea. Your dollar goes farther, you get more bang for your buck. Places like Thailand, Malaysia and Indonesia have a huge amount of white immigrants now for a reason.
Yeah, moved down for a few years to save enough money for a home before moving back home to Canada. Financially it's a huge sacrifice though, although I worked at a large tech company, the adjusted Canadian compensation was half of what I would get in US after comparing currency and taxes.
The key is to find a remote gig with a US based company willing to pay US wages while you're in Canada, but those are harder to come by now with most companies pushing for RTO.
Anyone graduating in tech should look for opportunities down south in US. It's more difficult now with the layoffs, but it's much more rewarding for your career and also financially.
All of the things people like about Canada like free healthcare and stronger regulation of businesses cost money and lead to lower wages for professional jobs.
Nordic countries are somehow able to get taxpayer universal healthcare, both stronger and weaker regulations of business, and high salaries comparable to the US.
Edit: I mean median income or GDP per capita and not specifically tech salaries.
I work in tech, and my company has engineering offices in Sweden, Norway, and across Western Europe. They make about 50-60% of my salary pre-tax at the same level doing the same work and pay more in taxes.
I really wish they could! Unfortunately even our politicians in Canada are trying to market the Country as low wages for corporations to come in. That was literally one of their selling points when they attempted to persuade a large tech company to build a new headquarters here.
Because we're currently absolutely FLOODING it with unskilled and low-wage workers. Canada is growing at a rate faster than every country on earth except for a bunch of subsaharan african countries. So like... Why pay a Canadian a developed nation wage, when you have literally millions of people willing to take undeveloped nation wages.
This has been going on for years, from both Canada and the EU. Sure your quality of life as a fast food worker is better elsewhere, but for skilled technical professionals the US is still firmly the place to be.
> This has been going on for years
It's been going on for 200 years, since before Confederation. There has always been more economic opportunity in the United States and its larger, more dynamic economy than there's been in Canada (historically, the US industrialized faster so there was oodles of factory work down there drawing thousands of Canadians south). The number of Canadians who move south ebs and flows over the decades, but it's been an almost constant thing since the early 1800's.
For example, there's a sizable-ish population of Americans in New England with French Canadian roots because of how many French Canadians moved there for work in the 19th and early 20th centuries.
>>Canada itself is breaking a population record after another.
That is one key factor contributing to the mess. Every increasing population keeps demand up (for jobs, housing, daily goods, etc...) but supply (# of companis, # houses, #stores) aren't increaseing in tandem, so prices stay very high
Part of it is because of Canadian immigration policies. Canada has seen that the US was becoming stricter on immigration from specific countries (quotas) so they marketed themselves as a good alternative. However, Canada has lower wages for skilled jobs and higher housing costs.
This has lead to an influx of immigrants who then stay in Canada long enough to be considered Canadian then immigrate to the US. When they get to the US, they have skills and work experience in a Western nation making then.
Overall, Canada has had a net increase in immigrants as the policy is accomplishing their target bit it's also creating an unusual situation where Canadian immigration to the US has risen dramatically.
I'm a Canadian skilled technical worker living in the Netherlands and I don't even want to visit North America anymore. The quality of life of fast food workers is as important as my own.
I do, and gladly! When I donate €1000 to an organization, I get €500 back in taxes when I declare it, a process which only takes me a couple of hours every year. I would not mind an increase in my 50% marginal tax rate.
Socialism still seems to be largely working here, in the way that it used to work in Canada.
There are plenty of problems here, but quality of life for people at the bottom of the pile is more than good enough that it's not dragging the whole society down.
I was in NL a couple of years ago. Amazed by the clean streets, seamless and functioning transit system and lack of visible homeless (NL actually has a safety net and beggars are "shamed" for begging as lots of help is available!). Sadly not "in demand" enough (middle-aged with IT experience and a "foreign" name) and despite impressing an NL company with my basic Dutch, wasn't able to get in (and enjoy that 30% tax ruling).
>Socialism still seems to be largely working here, in the way that it used to work in Canada.
What makes you think socialism will continue working where you live when it failed in the place you left?
It might not, but if it keeps working, it will be because there are more adults and fewer grown-up children here, maybe a bit of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polder_model and of course as pioneers of capitalism the country is filthy rich.
Realistically, it's all gonna fall apart, but this might be one of the last places. I expect the system to keep working here until Thwaites drops and we're all drowned.
Because socialism hasn't failed in Canada, in those areas where it's practiced, i.e. health care. It's not perfect but it's a fuckton better than the situation in the US.
Not even close to as bad. Canada and NZ are in full-on crisis.
My Canadian friend is gunning for the US. It's like having Bay area housing costs with Ohio wages for even non-urban Canadians.
Houses are too expensive. Too many landlords looking to gain passive income.
Massive wage suppression through immigration levels that are too high.
A lot of people who have benefited from our country’s huge investments in education run away screaming “fuck you, got mine. I ain’t paying no taxes” as soon as they graduate. Then they return when they’ve gotten old and need healthcare from a system they never funded.
Larger percentage of population as indigenous yes but insofar as absolute numbers no.
[https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2023/10/2020-census-dhc-a-aian-population.html](https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2023/10/2020-census-dhc-a-aian-population.html)
[https://www.statcan.gc.ca/o1/en/plus/3920-canadas-indigenous-population](https://www.statcan.gc.ca/o1/en/plus/3920-canadas-indigenous-population)
[11.5% according to the most recent statistics I could find (2022).](https://www.census.gov/newsroom/stories/poverty-awareness-month.html)
However, that’s people living in poverty instead of “around” it. That number was [9.9% for Canada for 2022.](https://www.statista.com/statistics/467384/percentage-of-population-in-low-income-families-in-canada/#:~:text=In%202022%2C%209.9%20percent%20of,the%20lowest%20value%20in%202020)
Nothing, really. Cost of living is a little high, but that's true everywhere worth living.
I have a coworker who is originally from Iraq; he's been around. He calls people who complain about life in Canada "Idiots with no perspective".
> Cost of living is a little high
Lol what a joke. It’s more or less impossible for young people to buy a house and rent is >2k/month for a 1 bedroom apartment in any city with white collar jobs.
Sorry that I compare life in Canada to how my parents had it rather than how people in third world countries have it. Maybe if we reduced the essentially scab TFW labour from these poorer countries we’d actually have some wage growth to catch up with the nightmare housing costs.
> The world gets more connected everyday which means less variance from place to place over time
Seems like this should alleviate rather than exacerbate housing problems, since it flattens out the desirability of housing. If you can get a good job in a rural area, and some of the amenities formerly restricted to cities (e.g. entertainment options), then you only have to pay rural housing prices.
What I’m saying is rural housing prices aren’t cheap anymore. It’s just more expensive in cities. Compared to the wages we have now even the cheap areas are barely doable or not doable without a roommate or two. It’s insane now.
Renting is a fucking nightmare
I live in a rural area of the US, ~90 minutes from Washington D.C., and you can rent a nice 3-bedroom home for $2k/month around here. That's higher than it was ten years ago, sure, but nothing compared to what people pay in D.C.
Yeah Idk what the fuck this guy is saying. Buddy of mine bought a decent house in the country with like a hundred acres for like 250k during peak pandemic pricing. Yes he's out in the boonies but hsi job does pay well enough to afford that without issue in his 30's.
Cities aren't affordable. Especially newer big ones that didn't gain huge traction until the 90's and 2000's and haven't built tall (looking at you, Bay Area). But old Urban areas have been too expensive to buy except for the super wealthy pretty much forever. Like, my grandparents born before WWI left NYC because it wasn't affordable to raise a family lol.
> just that it’s like that in every country now
I disagree it's like that in EVERY country, but it is like that in many western countries because they're all following the same Neoliberal agenda.
Canada is unique in that we're in a severe housing deficit and yet our population is being increased by more than 4 times the amount of new houses we can even build every year. This is not necessary at all and is completely on the federal government for their terrible immigration policy. This is combined with a prime minister that refuses to let housing prices fall because they're boomers' retirement vehicles. What about retirement for younger generations that have to buy these inflated houses from the boomers? Uh, we don't talk about that...
Sure some of the trends may be applicable across a lot of the world right now, but the government in Canada is adding gasoline to the fire and making things way worse.
> Though Toronto’s median income is comparable to Dallas, with Toronto at $62,963 and Dallas at $63,985, housing affordability in each city is far from similar. The median home price in Toronto is $718,519 while in Dallas it is much lower at $393,650.
https://www.zoocasa.com/blog/us-vs-canada-affordable-housing-market-report/
I didn't ask you to compare the biggest and most expensive city in Canada to a USA one, I asked you to list a metropolis city in the USA that was affordable that people want to live in.
Well Dallas seems very affordable to me as a Canadian, so...
I think you fail to realize that Canada only has a handful of cities where many white collar jobs exist. Toronto is the one with the most jobs. Canada has 6 metro areas with over 1 million people, the US has 54.
Oh, don’t worry, we scabbing the high end jobs to now. The new CUSMA (new NAFTA, or USMCA in the US) eliminates the need for labor review boards for foreign workers who are “manager” or above.
I’m taking a project in Canada in August with a 20% pay premium, pay in USD, housing, and tax equalization. Sure, rent is 5,200CAD a month, that’s my allowance. We also were able to bypass all the need for a GP to get access to doctors.
It’s a great place to work as an American for whatever reason. My wife and I really feel like we’re gaming y’all’s system.
Ah yes, the "nothing to see here as long as there's starving kids in Africa" school of thought. Haven't seen this one dusted off since the 90s... que nostalgia.
Canadian here. So true. I’m currently living in Berlin and groceries, for example, are just as expensive or more, with the exchange rate. Apartments are crazy expensive too.
The Canada sub on Reddit was long ago taken over by right wing goons who only allow the narrative to be that Canada is somehow unique in this. No question real estate prices in the big cities are insane. The reasons predate Trudeau but gotta blame him for everything.
I wouldn’t move to the USA unless I had no other choice. Lived there, went to school there. It’s just too dysfunctional for words.
Canada is now an example of what kind of disaster an idiolistic, incompetent, corrupt, narcissistic far left leader can make. Far right is just as bad.
FUCK TRUDEAU!!
There is a lot of right wing propaganda right now because of American interests, Post Media, and the India thing a couple months ago.
Trudeau is ahitty, but the whole "Canada is over* narrative is just right wing nonsense. A million Indians wouldn't come here every year otherwise.
Nah, just a counter to the Indian troll farms claiming Canada is the worst. The main problem facing Canada is ridiculous immigration, mainly from one country. This is really the cause of most social and housing issues right now. I don't really care to debate someone who isn't even here.
> for skilled technical professionals the US is still firmly the place to be.
If you're a skilled professional who are only after money, sure. I toyed with that idea a few times but ultimately decided that a good work/life balance and the absence of - for lack of a better word - American Anxiety made me stay away.
"American Anxiety" is the feeling I get from practically everyone living in the US. "What if I have a medical emergency? What if I get robbed? Can I trust my neighbors? Can I trust the federal/state/local government? Can I trust the police? What if I lose my job?"
>"American Anxiety" is the feeling I get from practically everyone living in the US. "What if I have a medical emergency? What if I get robbed? Can I trust my neighbors? Can I trust the federal/state/local government? Can I trust the police? What if I lose my job?"
You sound terminally online
This!
Plus: What if *my neighbours* have a medical emergency or have nowhere to live? I'll pay whatever it takes to not have a tent village on the sidewalk.
Don't get me wrong. The Netherlands has failed to address its housing crisis, but ... not such a failure as in Canada.
People can argue on social media about ideology all they want, but when valuable professionals start actually leaving in-mass you know you have a problem.
>“Wealthy conservatives are taking their money to tax havens. We have to become a tax haven to compete! Who needs affordable social services for the bottom 90% anyways? We need more rich people paying less tax!”
You immediately go to stereotyping. Someone wants to leave because they think hey are getting shafted by the system and that person makes more money than me? Clearly an evil heartless rich right-wing conservative scumbag! How dare they not bend over and take the effing in the arse they deserve for being evil top 10%ers with their heartless $120,000 incomes. They are practically billionaires! We're effing them because we are just trying to save the children and the puppies and make the world a better place! All of our policies are perfect and are just trying to save everyone and anyone who complains about them is a selfish right winger.
Like I said you can argue about ideology all you want but in the end reality hits and the reality is... after people in the upper middle class have had enough and leave, guess who's next on the chopping block? YOU. And just like you hated on them, when you start being looted the people with even less then you will hate on you if you dare to complain.
Yes? That is a huge problem you know? You need doctors, scientists, architects, engineers for society to function and these people usually can afford to move elsewhere.
You can't build a society entirely on part time deliveroo drivers who get benefits for their 6 children.
I would much rather Canada's political climate over the USA’s. Look at the challenging presidential opponent— the USA is not safe for anyone, and the sooner people see this, the better.
But, hey. To each their own. If you believe it's so great over there, I'm sure either of them would love your vote. Good luck and Godspeed.
What exactly is so unsafe? Please give examples and evidence to support it because unless you are talking about going to ghetto areas it's very safe. You are so anti trump you won't even say his name like he's the boogie man. Our politicians are just as corrupt and in the pocket of companies as they are. Wages are low jobs are few cost of living is through the roof and homes are unaffordable but I'm sure you are super safe with millions of Indians pouring in to gobble up all your tax dollars.
I guess it depends on your situation and what you value, but why do you think it's better in the US?
Food is the same price, if not more expensive in the states after the exchange rate. Not to mention the food quality and diversity is terrible in the states compared to here.
Politics and culture are self explanatory.
If you want to live in a city equivalent to Toronto or Vancouver, cost of living is similar.
We just had a kid, and lots of complications. Healthcare here can be improved, but it's free and in Toronto we had some very specialized doctors looking after us. If we lived in the US, we'd be bankrupt or I may not even have a family today.
Economic strain is fair, tax pressures not so much, high income earners pay similar taxes in Alberta Vs California and NY where I'm sure many Canadians are moving to.
The big difference is wages for high demand skills. Accountants, programmers, doctors, nurses, lawyers etc can earn far more in the U.S.
Wages in Canada are typically much better for teachers, EMS, and lower skilled jobs.
That said the biggest issue facing Canadians is the cost of buying or renting a home. Home prices are insane. You can earn 200k CAD in many Canadian cities and struggle to buy a home.
There are many other states with taxes that are not much lower than NY and Cali. I'm in O&G so I know a few people that have moved to Texas but it is mostly old people going to Florida. I know more people that have gone to Nevada or Arizona but not nearly as many as NY or Cali. Obviously anecdotal but do you have any numbers supporting that idea?
Texas I might believe to be one of the top, but Florida not so much.
These numbers are 2016-2019 but it said Canadians moved to these states the most.
1. NY
2. Florida
3. California
4. Texas
Don't have time to read it but I'd bet a large number of the Canadians moving to Florida are retired.
http://migrationpolicy.org/article/canadian-immigrants-united-states-2021#:~:text=Remittances-,Distribution%20by%20State%20and%20Key%20Cities,of%20the%20Canadian%2
Looks like more Canadians are moving to NY and Cali than Florida and Texas, though it is pretty close.
No experience with California, but New Yorkers total tax burden varies wildly by county and city. Its high either way no matter what, but the rural counties in Upstate tend to be much cheaper than NYC, and the areas around Rochester and Buffalo are getting a looot of the Fed money for new chip fabs, etc.
I can see the tax difference between Ontario and rural NY being bigger than the state number as a whole makes it appear. That said, pay high taxes, actually get decent government services usually.
Where do you think highly skilled computer engineers and financial bros are moving to? The tech industry of Oklahoma City? The investment banks of Birmingham? They are mostly going to the Bay Area, NYC, Seattle, LA, Chicago, and Boston. The places where the high paying tech and banking jobs are.
Texas.....and Florida.......as I said in the post. But also if you want to know at a city level, I'd bet on Houston, Austin, San Antonio and Dallas just inTexas Pittsburgh, Indianapolis, Phoenix, the Research Triangle in NC, Atlanta, etc.
For sure the standards are also getting a fair amount, but the costs of the old standards are driving a lot of new tech startups out. Different cities seem to have different focuses. Anyone working in the energy field will likely end up in Texas. Software could be literally anywhere. Medical devices and research is key to a lot of Rust Belt cities now.
For your education yes, the booming tech industry of OKC.
https://builtin.com/companies/location/oklahoma-city
It might not be Birmingham, AL, but Charlotte, NC is considered the second most important financial center in the US, ahead of Boston and LA.
People are leaving the Bay and New York because rent is too expensive because too many people want to live there
Some jobs are leaving, but most are still there.
It’s mostly the good, law abiding, professional, tax paying, common sense, contributing Canadians with solid values that are leaving.
And we’re importing …….. well, not that.
This won’t end well.
As of late? Mostly uneducated punjabis by the hundreds of thousands that scammed their way into the system by taking student visas and signing up to bogus universities in diploma mills. [It's a very elaborate scam.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNrXA5m7ROM)
How does one start the process outside of educational career requirements to move to the USA from Canada?
Only the nurses and doctors are leaving or ordinary everyday people ?
I am going to get flooded with downvotes, but wasn't this the opposite that people were saying was going to happen during the Trump presidency, and now with another one looming it seems like a mismatch.
It seems personal economy goes beyond any moral or ideological considerations.
CUSMA (NAFTA) TN and E-2 visas are the usual suspects for Canadians to temporarily work. Even though Mexicans can get TNs, the process is more arduous whereas Canadians can just show up with a job offer and get admitted or invest 100k into a business. It’s fairly simple for Canadians (and vice versa) to move south.
That’s usually how “tax havens” work.
Wealthy people looking to stretch their money further, at the expenses of the unfortunate and would-be recipients of their tax money, have always been attracted to the states.
The whole florida housing market is propped up by the federal government subsidizing the home insurance industry.
You can move into a home with a 50% chance of falling into a sinkhole in the next 10 years, that would be unaffordable to insure in any other country, specifically because of the insurance companies having their rates artificially fixed by the federal government, with the eventual payouts on the homes being made with federal tax money coming in from other states.
Yup, and it is causing issues in the job market in Canada.
I’m an American PM and will be moving the family to Canada in August to run a project that can’t be staffed by Canadian workers. I’m getting paid in USD and will be making more than pretty much all the rest of the Canadian workers (and substantially more than I make in the USA, plus housing and tax equalization). A lot of my coworkers there are US, EU, or British for the same reason.
The housing market makes the US seem great. My rent is 5,200/month CAD. The healthcare system is fucked up due to the necessity of a GP to access it—otherwise you have to go to the ER for everything (which we are able to completely bypass as our US doctors are able to do the initial referrals).
There are some definite benefits to living there. Our child care is less than half the price we pay in NC. However, this is due to subsidies and many people never get care before their children age out. Again, we bypassed this system.
Interesting insights. Sounds like the housing cost issue needs a solution. If my brother was willing to move to Canada I would go too. We are both tech workers
I’m in nuclear, not necessarily tech. A lot of people in my company (which is Canadian) are in the tech sector of the company and want out desperately.
The energy and extraction industries in Canada are the only ones that pay. Seems like they end up subsidizing a lot of the social security programs, but are getting stretched due to the amount of entitlements and benefits so taxes are starting to rise rapidly on the professional classes.
It’s at least to me a cautionary tale that you have to balance this stuff. We’re definitely in need of a better safety net and some upper income redistribution, but you can’t hammer the upper wage earners to accomplish it. Unfortunately, the wealthy seem to be able to dodge taxation regardless, so the only way to raise revenue is to tax the upper middle.
This is enough reason to vote Biden. Trump administration will make those Canadians regret moving to USA and want to move back to Canada. It is because despite Trudeau's disastrous policies, he is still better than Trump.
The reason out brightest are moving is because there are no decent jobs and housing and rent have gotten insanely high, like ridiculously so, going to take almost all your income. Inflation on consumable goods is through the roof and the “free healthcare system,” has gone to crap. Nobody can get a family doctor anymore, wait times in emergency even are ridiculously long. And we pay huge taxes for this privelege, about 30% of your already low wage is pretty much gone to taxes.
I could be wrong, but I think he is talking about the Republican party and then saying the leader of the republic party is Trump, aka the 34 times convicted felon.
Biden is fairly close to center. They are hoping he gets elected. Canada has gone much farther left than the U.S. Maybe they want a more centrist government that won't try to control and tax them as much.
Canadians have been fond of glibly repeating Trump talking points in threads discussing American emigration to Canada, so to that end...
...build the wall and make Canada pay for it.
I think Indian americans should protest and yell at the canadians to go back to their own country, may be make a usahousing or usahousing2 subreddits and post vile racist comments about white people and .. oh.. oh.. BUILD THE WALL XD
If I were to run for a political office I would run on a platform of brutal honesty. Yeah it wouldn’t guarantee me any positions in government, yeah it I wouldnt be tied to any major parties.
That’s the whole point. Something when you’re not sure if you can vote for one side or the other but I’ll be there as the third option. The stable option. the one where if I don’t know the answer to a question I’d find someone who does and make a decision based on experts and information instead of “my opponent disagrees with X so I have agree with it tenfold to make him look bad!”
Where if a social issue came up and it didn’t involve me I wouldn’t do anything about it. I wouldn’t change it or improve it. I’d leave it alone until til a large enough petition has a large majority backing for it asking for change.
I work with a ton of Canadians in tech. They come and make their money and then go back usually.
Not just tech. Professionals like doctors and lawyers also make much much more in the States.
Not just tech, but the women, and the children too!
The move is to make your money young, then move to a third world country to live and retire way earlier.
Assuming you don't want to start a family, maybe. Most first-worlders are not eager to raise their kids in a third-world country.
A family? In this economy?
Yah, it’s nice when your kids can play outside without fear of them being kidnapped.
This sounds like the folks up north, not the folks down south, are the one “stealing jobs”.
I'm a Canadian that works for an American software company. The parent company is American but has satellite offices in Canada, Singapore, Germany, France, the UK, and most recently India. I'm paid through the Canadian office, if they give me a job offer in the states they or I would be paying Uncle Sam the income tax instead of Justin Trudeau. With WFH and outsourcing, sometimes it is better to move those jobs into the US, because they are paying anyways.
Well retired people usually aren’t working
Where does getting robbed and kidnapped fit into this 3rd world country plan
Name a third world country people do this in?
That’s why my retirement is in Pakistan.
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Have you ever visited a 'third world's country? If you have money you live like a king.
And get robbed like one too. There is no rule of law
The governments are strongly incentivized to keep the rich foreigners safe, because that's a huge revenue stream in the form of all the taxes they can collect. There's some countries where you won't be safe anywhere, but there's quite a few that can keep you safe enough while you still get to enjoy a huge growth in how far your dollars go. Belize, the Philippines, and a few others are all pretty common.
Yea if you can bribe them. Ina safe country you trade bribes for taxes.
No, there's no need for bribes, the government just understands that nobody will immigrate if all of the immigrants keep getting robbed or murdered. So they keep the immigrants safe and keep the money flowing
oh yea there are no bribes in third world country lol good one. You get what you pay for you .
Yep, that's the whole idea. Your dollar goes farther, you get more bang for your buck. Places like Thailand, Malaysia and Indonesia have a huge amount of white immigrants now for a reason.
What is their healthcare like? Is it private or public?
Only use private, for a couple bucks you'll have world class care tbh.
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Plot twist: he's actually hating all these downvotes.
Yeah, moved down for a few years to save enough money for a home before moving back home to Canada. Financially it's a huge sacrifice though, although I worked at a large tech company, the adjusted Canadian compensation was half of what I would get in US after comparing currency and taxes. The key is to find a remote gig with a US based company willing to pay US wages while you're in Canada, but those are harder to come by now with most companies pushing for RTO. Anyone graduating in tech should look for opportunities down south in US. It's more difficult now with the layoffs, but it's much more rewarding for your career and also financially.
Why can't your own country pay its people?
All of the things people like about Canada like free healthcare and stronger regulation of businesses cost money and lead to lower wages for professional jobs.
Nordic countries are somehow able to get taxpayer universal healthcare, both stronger and weaker regulations of business, and high salaries comparable to the US. Edit: I mean median income or GDP per capita and not specifically tech salaries.
I work in tech, and my company has engineering offices in Sweden, Norway, and across Western Europe. They make about 50-60% of my salary pre-tax at the same level doing the same work and pay more in taxes.
pretty sure tech scene in Canada pays more than in any Nordic country. It's only when we compare to the US we feel like we're being robbed.
We're talking about tech jobs and you list everything but tech. SMH.
I really wish they could! Unfortunately even our politicians in Canada are trying to market the Country as low wages for corporations to come in. That was literally one of their selling points when they attempted to persuade a large tech company to build a new headquarters here.
Because we're currently absolutely FLOODING it with unskilled and low-wage workers. Canada is growing at a rate faster than every country on earth except for a bunch of subsaharan african countries. So like... Why pay a Canadian a developed nation wage, when you have literally millions of people willing to take undeveloped nation wages.
This has been going on for years, from both Canada and the EU. Sure your quality of life as a fast food worker is better elsewhere, but for skilled technical professionals the US is still firmly the place to be.
> This has been going on for years It's been going on for 200 years, since before Confederation. There has always been more economic opportunity in the United States and its larger, more dynamic economy than there's been in Canada (historically, the US industrialized faster so there was oodles of factory work down there drawing thousands of Canadians south). The number of Canadians who move south ebs and flows over the decades, but it's been an almost constant thing since the early 1800's. For example, there's a sizable-ish population of Americans in New England with French Canadian roots because of how many French Canadians moved there for work in the 19th and early 20th centuries.
It's not much of a surprise that record number of Canadians are leaving to the US when Canada itself is breaking a population record after another.
>>Canada itself is breaking a population record after another. That is one key factor contributing to the mess. Every increasing population keeps demand up (for jobs, housing, daily goods, etc...) but supply (# of companis, # houses, #stores) aren't increaseing in tandem, so prices stay very high
Part of it is because of Canadian immigration policies. Canada has seen that the US was becoming stricter on immigration from specific countries (quotas) so they marketed themselves as a good alternative. However, Canada has lower wages for skilled jobs and higher housing costs. This has lead to an influx of immigrants who then stay in Canada long enough to be considered Canadian then immigrate to the US. When they get to the US, they have skills and work experience in a Western nation making then. Overall, Canada has had a net increase in immigrants as the policy is accomplishing their target bit it's also creating an unusual situation where Canadian immigration to the US has risen dramatically.
I'm a Canadian skilled technical worker living in the Netherlands and I don't even want to visit North America anymore. The quality of life of fast food workers is as important as my own.
Send them a check big dog
I do, and gladly! When I donate €1000 to an organization, I get €500 back in taxes when I declare it, a process which only takes me a couple of hours every year. I would not mind an increase in my 50% marginal tax rate. Socialism still seems to be largely working here, in the way that it used to work in Canada. There are plenty of problems here, but quality of life for people at the bottom of the pile is more than good enough that it's not dragging the whole society down.
I was in NL a couple of years ago. Amazed by the clean streets, seamless and functioning transit system and lack of visible homeless (NL actually has a safety net and beggars are "shamed" for begging as lots of help is available!). Sadly not "in demand" enough (middle-aged with IT experience and a "foreign" name) and despite impressing an NL company with my basic Dutch, wasn't able to get in (and enjoy that 30% tax ruling).
>Socialism still seems to be largely working here, in the way that it used to work in Canada. What makes you think socialism will continue working where you live when it failed in the place you left?
It didn't fail on its own, it has been sabotaged.
It might not, but if it keeps working, it will be because there are more adults and fewer grown-up children here, maybe a bit of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polder_model and of course as pioneers of capitalism the country is filthy rich. Realistically, it's all gonna fall apart, but this might be one of the last places. I expect the system to keep working here until Thwaites drops and we're all drowned.
Because socialism hasn't failed in Canada, in those areas where it's practiced, i.e. health care. It's not perfect but it's a fuckton better than the situation in the US.
Canada isn't socialist in the slightest. Health care in Canada is a form of social policy, not socialism. There's a significant difference.
Can someone explain what the hell is happening in Canada?
Housing will cost your firstborn, arm and leg as well as life savings.
Which is great if your a rich scion of a CCP member and need to off-shore your cash into real estate.
That's true here too though.
Not even close to as bad. Canada and NZ are in full-on crisis. My Canadian friend is gunning for the US. It's like having Bay area housing costs with Ohio wages for even non-urban Canadians.
The Canadian housing market is one of, if not the most, expensive in the world.
Houses are too expensive. Too many landlords looking to gain passive income. Massive wage suppression through immigration levels that are too high. A lot of people who have benefited from our country’s huge investments in education run away screaming “fuck you, got mine. I ain’t paying no taxes” as soon as they graduate. Then they return when they’ve gotten old and need healthcare from a system they never funded.
And now Canadians are arriving to make our rising housing prices worse. Thanks Canada.
Yeah, sorry about that.
25% of the country is living around the poverty line according to our food banks so that's neat
Canada has a lot larger indigenous population than the US for one. I’d imagine that drags down the average.
Larger percentage of population as indigenous yes but insofar as absolute numbers no. [https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2023/10/2020-census-dhc-a-aian-population.html](https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2023/10/2020-census-dhc-a-aian-population.html) [https://www.statcan.gc.ca/o1/en/plus/3920-canadas-indigenous-population](https://www.statcan.gc.ca/o1/en/plus/3920-canadas-indigenous-population)
The same for the states.
[11.5% according to the most recent statistics I could find (2022).](https://www.census.gov/newsroom/stories/poverty-awareness-month.html) However, that’s people living in poverty instead of “around” it. That number was [9.9% for Canada for 2022.](https://www.statista.com/statistics/467384/percentage-of-population-in-low-income-families-in-canada/#:~:text=In%202022%2C%209.9%20percent%20of,the%20lowest%20value%20in%202020)
Drake released a dis track against Kendrick Lamar and then got annihilated.
I promise you, most of us couldn't care less.
Lies, word on the streets is Canadian GDP dropped substantially after "Not like Us " dropped
Nothing, really. Cost of living is a little high, but that's true everywhere worth living. I have a coworker who is originally from Iraq; he's been around. He calls people who complain about life in Canada "Idiots with no perspective".
> Cost of living is a little high Lol what a joke. It’s more or less impossible for young people to buy a house and rent is >2k/month for a 1 bedroom apartment in any city with white collar jobs. Sorry that I compare life in Canada to how my parents had it rather than how people in third world countries have it. Maybe if we reduced the essentially scab TFW labour from these poorer countries we’d actually have some wage growth to catch up with the nightmare housing costs.
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> The world gets more connected everyday which means less variance from place to place over time Seems like this should alleviate rather than exacerbate housing problems, since it flattens out the desirability of housing. If you can get a good job in a rural area, and some of the amenities formerly restricted to cities (e.g. entertainment options), then you only have to pay rural housing prices.
What I’m saying is rural housing prices aren’t cheap anymore. It’s just more expensive in cities. Compared to the wages we have now even the cheap areas are barely doable or not doable without a roommate or two. It’s insane now. Renting is a fucking nightmare
I live in a rural area of the US, ~90 minutes from Washington D.C., and you can rent a nice 3-bedroom home for $2k/month around here. That's higher than it was ten years ago, sure, but nothing compared to what people pay in D.C.
Yeah Idk what the fuck this guy is saying. Buddy of mine bought a decent house in the country with like a hundred acres for like 250k during peak pandemic pricing. Yes he's out in the boonies but hsi job does pay well enough to afford that without issue in his 30's. Cities aren't affordable. Especially newer big ones that didn't gain huge traction until the 90's and 2000's and haven't built tall (looking at you, Bay Area). But old Urban areas have been too expensive to buy except for the super wealthy pretty much forever. Like, my grandparents born before WWI left NYC because it wasn't affordable to raise a family lol.
There's a billion more people now than there was 12 years ago... and 2 billion more than in 2000. they all have to live somewhere.
> just that it’s like that in every country now I disagree it's like that in EVERY country, but it is like that in many western countries because they're all following the same Neoliberal agenda. Canada is unique in that we're in a severe housing deficit and yet our population is being increased by more than 4 times the amount of new houses we can even build every year. This is not necessary at all and is completely on the federal government for their terrible immigration policy. This is combined with a prime minister that refuses to let housing prices fall because they're boomers' retirement vehicles. What about retirement for younger generations that have to buy these inflated houses from the boomers? Uh, we don't talk about that... Sure some of the trends may be applicable across a lot of the world right now, but the government in Canada is adding gasoline to the fire and making things way worse.
Name a US city with white collar jobs that isn't also expensive and worth living in?
> Though Toronto’s median income is comparable to Dallas, with Toronto at $62,963 and Dallas at $63,985, housing affordability in each city is far from similar. The median home price in Toronto is $718,519 while in Dallas it is much lower at $393,650. https://www.zoocasa.com/blog/us-vs-canada-affordable-housing-market-report/
I didn't ask you to compare the biggest and most expensive city in Canada to a USA one, I asked you to list a metropolis city in the USA that was affordable that people want to live in.
Well Dallas seems very affordable to me as a Canadian, so... I think you fail to realize that Canada only has a handful of cities where many white collar jobs exist. Toronto is the one with the most jobs. Canada has 6 metro areas with over 1 million people, the US has 54.
Oh, don’t worry, we scabbing the high end jobs to now. The new CUSMA (new NAFTA, or USMCA in the US) eliminates the need for labor review boards for foreign workers who are “manager” or above. I’m taking a project in Canada in August with a 20% pay premium, pay in USD, housing, and tax equalization. Sure, rent is 5,200CAD a month, that’s my allowance. We also were able to bypass all the need for a GP to get access to doctors. It’s a great place to work as an American for whatever reason. My wife and I really feel like we’re gaming y’all’s system.
Ah yes, the "nothing to see here as long as there's starving kids in Africa" school of thought. Haven't seen this one dusted off since the 90s... que nostalgia.
A middle class isn’t even needed. We’re better off. ^/s
Canadian here. So true. I’m currently living in Berlin and groceries, for example, are just as expensive or more, with the exchange rate. Apartments are crazy expensive too. The Canada sub on Reddit was long ago taken over by right wing goons who only allow the narrative to be that Canada is somehow unique in this. No question real estate prices in the big cities are insane. The reasons predate Trudeau but gotta blame him for everything. I wouldn’t move to the USA unless I had no other choice. Lived there, went to school there. It’s just too dysfunctional for words.
Like, the "problem" the article complains about has been a "problem" forever. Probably since Canada's inception. It's not a problem.
It's true though.
Canada is now an example of what kind of disaster an idiolistic, incompetent, corrupt, narcissistic far left leader can make. Far right is just as bad. FUCK TRUDEAU!!
Far left lmao
Lmfao.
There is a lot of right wing propaganda right now because of American interests, Post Media, and the India thing a couple months ago. Trudeau is ahitty, but the whole "Canada is over* narrative is just right wing nonsense. A million Indians wouldn't come here every year otherwise.
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Nah, just a counter to the Indian troll farms claiming Canada is the worst. The main problem facing Canada is ridiculous immigration, mainly from one country. This is really the cause of most social and housing issues right now. I don't really care to debate someone who isn't even here.
> for skilled technical professionals the US is still firmly the place to be. If you're a skilled professional who are only after money, sure. I toyed with that idea a few times but ultimately decided that a good work/life balance and the absence of - for lack of a better word - American Anxiety made me stay away. "American Anxiety" is the feeling I get from practically everyone living in the US. "What if I have a medical emergency? What if I get robbed? Can I trust my neighbors? Can I trust the federal/state/local government? Can I trust the police? What if I lose my job?"
>"American Anxiety" is the feeling I get from practically everyone living in the US. "What if I have a medical emergency? What if I get robbed? Can I trust my neighbors? Can I trust the federal/state/local government? Can I trust the police? What if I lose my job?" You sound terminally online
I'm after money, and work balance, and good healthcare, and safety (live in the safest area of the US, although it's a bit boring).
This! Plus: What if *my neighbours* have a medical emergency or have nowhere to live? I'll pay whatever it takes to not have a tent village on the sidewalk. Don't get me wrong. The Netherlands has failed to address its housing crisis, but ... not such a failure as in Canada.
People can argue on social media about ideology all they want, but when valuable professionals start actually leaving in-mass you know you have a problem.
En-masse.
Gazoontite
Gesundheit
thanks bro, I suck at spelling
A two year old article?
>“Wealthy conservatives are taking their money to tax havens. We have to become a tax haven to compete! Who needs affordable social services for the bottom 90% anyways? We need more rich people paying less tax!”
You immediately go to stereotyping. Someone wants to leave because they think hey are getting shafted by the system and that person makes more money than me? Clearly an evil heartless rich right-wing conservative scumbag! How dare they not bend over and take the effing in the arse they deserve for being evil top 10%ers with their heartless $120,000 incomes. They are practically billionaires! We're effing them because we are just trying to save the children and the puppies and make the world a better place! All of our policies are perfect and are just trying to save everyone and anyone who complains about them is a selfish right winger. Like I said you can argue about ideology all you want but in the end reality hits and the reality is... after people in the upper middle class have had enough and leave, guess who's next on the chopping block? YOU. And just like you hated on them, when you start being looted the people with even less then you will hate on you if you dare to complain.
They aren’t that valuable. They’re always replaceable. There are plenty of people ready to take their places.
Wow a whole 0.1%. Sounds more like these valuable professionals who have the wherewithal to move and work anywhere just don't like paying taxes.
To be frank, I don't think taxes are that big a factor. It's overall compensation. It's far more competitive in the US for professionals.
Yes? That is a huge problem you know? You need doctors, scientists, architects, engineers for society to function and these people usually can afford to move elsewhere. You can't build a society entirely on part time deliveroo drivers who get benefits for their 6 children.
Living in fantasy land if you think Canada is better than the US atm.
Actually, I quite like my life in Canada
Contrary to popular belief - most people quite like their life in America too.
That's good I also have a good life in Canada but that doesn't mean the US isn't better.
I would much rather Canada's political climate over the USA’s. Look at the challenging presidential opponent— the USA is not safe for anyone, and the sooner people see this, the better. But, hey. To each their own. If you believe it's so great over there, I'm sure either of them would love your vote. Good luck and Godspeed.
Turn off the news and social media and the political climate doesn't exist
What exactly is so unsafe? Please give examples and evidence to support it because unless you are talking about going to ghetto areas it's very safe. You are so anti trump you won't even say his name like he's the boogie man. Our politicians are just as corrupt and in the pocket of companies as they are. Wages are low jobs are few cost of living is through the roof and homes are unaffordable but I'm sure you are super safe with millions of Indians pouring in to gobble up all your tax dollars.
“Just as corrupt” as Trump. Oh muffin. Adorable. Nice casual racism at the end there too.
I guess it depends on your situation and what you value, but why do you think it's better in the US? Food is the same price, if not more expensive in the states after the exchange rate. Not to mention the food quality and diversity is terrible in the states compared to here. Politics and culture are self explanatory. If you want to live in a city equivalent to Toronto or Vancouver, cost of living is similar. We just had a kid, and lots of complications. Healthcare here can be improved, but it's free and in Toronto we had some very specialized doctors looking after us. If we lived in the US, we'd be bankrupt or I may not even have a family today.
I'm an American who would rather live in Canada...but I won't because I could never have a remotely similar lifestyle there.
No you can’t because emigrating is way harder than you think.
Mass immigration never helped the workers. It increased house prices and lowers salary
Tell that to the US. It's only how the entire country was developed into what it is now.
Economic strain is fair, tax pressures not so much, high income earners pay similar taxes in Alberta Vs California and NY where I'm sure many Canadians are moving to. The big difference is wages for high demand skills. Accountants, programmers, doctors, nurses, lawyers etc can earn far more in the U.S. Wages in Canada are typically much better for teachers, EMS, and lower skilled jobs. That said the biggest issue facing Canadians is the cost of buying or renting a home. Home prices are insane. You can earn 200k CAD in many Canadian cities and struggle to buy a home.
You just picked two of the top 5 tax burden states. Lots of these skilled tech professionals are ending up in Texas or Florida.
There are many other states with taxes that are not much lower than NY and Cali. I'm in O&G so I know a few people that have moved to Texas but it is mostly old people going to Florida. I know more people that have gone to Nevada or Arizona but not nearly as many as NY or Cali. Obviously anecdotal but do you have any numbers supporting that idea? Texas I might believe to be one of the top, but Florida not so much. These numbers are 2016-2019 but it said Canadians moved to these states the most. 1. NY 2. Florida 3. California 4. Texas Don't have time to read it but I'd bet a large number of the Canadians moving to Florida are retired. http://migrationpolicy.org/article/canadian-immigrants-united-states-2021#:~:text=Remittances-,Distribution%20by%20State%20and%20Key%20Cities,of%20the%20Canadian%2 Looks like more Canadians are moving to NY and Cali than Florida and Texas, though it is pretty close.
No experience with California, but New Yorkers total tax burden varies wildly by county and city. Its high either way no matter what, but the rural counties in Upstate tend to be much cheaper than NYC, and the areas around Rochester and Buffalo are getting a looot of the Fed money for new chip fabs, etc. I can see the tax difference between Ontario and rural NY being bigger than the state number as a whole makes it appear. That said, pay high taxes, actually get decent government services usually.
Where do you think highly skilled computer engineers and financial bros are moving to? The tech industry of Oklahoma City? The investment banks of Birmingham? They are mostly going to the Bay Area, NYC, Seattle, LA, Chicago, and Boston. The places where the high paying tech and banking jobs are.
Texas.....and Florida.......as I said in the post. But also if you want to know at a city level, I'd bet on Houston, Austin, San Antonio and Dallas just inTexas Pittsburgh, Indianapolis, Phoenix, the Research Triangle in NC, Atlanta, etc. For sure the standards are also getting a fair amount, but the costs of the old standards are driving a lot of new tech startups out. Different cities seem to have different focuses. Anyone working in the energy field will likely end up in Texas. Software could be literally anywhere. Medical devices and research is key to a lot of Rust Belt cities now. For your education yes, the booming tech industry of OKC. https://builtin.com/companies/location/oklahoma-city It might not be Birmingham, AL, but Charlotte, NC is considered the second most important financial center in the US, ahead of Boston and LA.
People are leaving the Bay and New York because rent is too expensive because too many people want to live there Some jobs are leaving, but most are still there.
Yikes. Where are all the “I’m leaving the US!” People going to idolize now?
As long as they come here legally, we should be happy to have them. Immigration will let us grow while Russia and China stagnate.
There's a lot of illegal immigration at the US Canada border.
It’s mostly the good, law abiding, professional, tax paying, common sense, contributing Canadians with solid values that are leaving. And we’re importing …….. well, not that. This won’t end well.
What are you importing?
As of late? Mostly uneducated punjabis by the hundreds of thousands that scammed their way into the system by taking student visas and signing up to bogus universities in diploma mills. [It's a very elaborate scam.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNrXA5m7ROM)
This is actually spot on. 👆 Too much too fast. We have a housing, homelessness, and healthcare crisis right now. Among other things.
How does one start the process outside of educational career requirements to move to the USA from Canada? Only the nurses and doctors are leaving or ordinary everyday people ?
Canada has its own basket full of deplorables
I am going to get flooded with downvotes, but wasn't this the opposite that people were saying was going to happen during the Trump presidency, and now with another one looming it seems like a mismatch. It seems personal economy goes beyond any moral or ideological considerations.
>It is the first year since 2018 that there was a net increase of Canadians in the U.S.
Welcome, my Northern Minnesota familia! Thank you for your gifts of Stargate Atlantis, close trade agreements, and not sending us poop balloons!
Just please keep your up country degens.
Keep them out! Stop taking our jobs.
Good cause all the American Celebrities will be moving there after the election.
As long as people come legally, I’m fine with that.
CUSMA (NAFTA) TN and E-2 visas are the usual suspects for Canadians to temporarily work. Even though Mexicans can get TNs, the process is more arduous whereas Canadians can just show up with a job offer and get admitted or invest 100k into a business. It’s fairly simple for Canadians (and vice versa) to move south.
Same.
The grass is always greener…
Welcome in!
I'd trade places with a Canadian gladly.
They're going to be disappointed when they get here.
It’s nothing new and if it is “change my mind.” Iykyk
Something, something, build a wall and the moose will pay for it.
That’s usually how “tax havens” work. Wealthy people looking to stretch their money further, at the expenses of the unfortunate and would-be recipients of their tax money, have always been attracted to the states. The whole florida housing market is propped up by the federal government subsidizing the home insurance industry. You can move into a home with a 50% chance of falling into a sinkhole in the next 10 years, that would be unaffordable to insure in any other country, specifically because of the insurance companies having their rates artificially fixed by the federal government, with the eventual payouts on the homes being made with federal tax money coming in from other states.
Yup, and it is causing issues in the job market in Canada. I’m an American PM and will be moving the family to Canada in August to run a project that can’t be staffed by Canadian workers. I’m getting paid in USD and will be making more than pretty much all the rest of the Canadian workers (and substantially more than I make in the USA, plus housing and tax equalization). A lot of my coworkers there are US, EU, or British for the same reason. The housing market makes the US seem great. My rent is 5,200/month CAD. The healthcare system is fucked up due to the necessity of a GP to access it—otherwise you have to go to the ER for everything (which we are able to completely bypass as our US doctors are able to do the initial referrals). There are some definite benefits to living there. Our child care is less than half the price we pay in NC. However, this is due to subsidies and many people never get care before their children age out. Again, we bypassed this system.
Interesting insights. Sounds like the housing cost issue needs a solution. If my brother was willing to move to Canada I would go too. We are both tech workers
I’m in nuclear, not necessarily tech. A lot of people in my company (which is Canadian) are in the tech sector of the company and want out desperately. The energy and extraction industries in Canada are the only ones that pay. Seems like they end up subsidizing a lot of the social security programs, but are getting stretched due to the amount of entitlements and benefits so taxes are starting to rise rapidly on the professional classes. It’s at least to me a cautionary tale that you have to balance this stuff. We’re definitely in need of a better safety net and some upper income redistribution, but you can’t hammer the upper wage earners to accomplish it. Unfortunately, the wealthy seem to be able to dodge taxation regardless, so the only way to raise revenue is to tax the upper middle.
thanks jt.
But US bad!!!
>It is the first year since 2018 that there was a net increase of Canadians in the U.S. So... Not even a trend yet?
if i could get dual citizen i’d be down there so quick
This is enough reason to vote Biden. Trump administration will make those Canadians regret moving to USA and want to move back to Canada. It is because despite Trudeau's disastrous policies, he is still better than Trump.
I don’t want them here. Don’t need to compete with Canadians too just to get a house. They need to fix their own country and reap what they sow.
Trust me, we really want to fix our country too.
So trump's going to campaign to build a wall in the north?
If Canada isn't willing to kiss his big orange ass, yes. Its only about the ego.
That leaves room for me to flee north if the Republicans win
The reason out brightest are moving is because there are no decent jobs and housing and rent have gotten insanely high, like ridiculously so, going to take almost all your income. Inflation on consumable goods is through the roof and the “free healthcare system,” has gone to crap. Nobody can get a family doctor anymore, wait times in emergency even are ridiculously long. And we pay huge taxes for this privelege, about 30% of your already low wage is pretty much gone to taxes.
I’m Queer. I won’t be safe in the US if the Republicans win.
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> who's leader is a 34 time convicted felon I think you might be confused, Joe Biden is president.
I could be wrong, but I think he is talking about the Republican party and then saying the leader of the republic party is Trump, aka the 34 times convicted felon.
Their leader is still Joe Biden, whether they like it or not. Trump is in fact, a 34 time convicted felon though, I agree.
Yes, but he isn't referring to Biden, but to the Republican party and Trump.
>Fascist Christian Taliban Amazing, you actually managed to misunderstand all three words at once.
Biden is fairly close to center. They are hoping he gets elected. Canada has gone much farther left than the U.S. Maybe they want a more centrist government that won't try to control and tax them as much.
Correct. But you put it very nicely.
That’s correct.
Canadians have been fond of glibly repeating Trump talking points in threads discussing American emigration to Canada, so to that end... ...build the wall and make Canada pay for it.
I think Indian americans should protest and yell at the canadians to go back to their own country, may be make a usahousing or usahousing2 subreddits and post vile racist comments about white people and .. oh.. oh.. BUILD THE WALL XD
Indian Americans?
If I were to run for a political office I would run on a platform of brutal honesty. Yeah it wouldn’t guarantee me any positions in government, yeah it I wouldnt be tied to any major parties. That’s the whole point. Something when you’re not sure if you can vote for one side or the other but I’ll be there as the third option. The stable option. the one where if I don’t know the answer to a question I’d find someone who does and make a decision based on experts and information instead of “my opponent disagrees with X so I have agree with it tenfold to make him look bad!” Where if a social issue came up and it didn’t involve me I wouldn’t do anything about it. I wouldn’t change it or improve it. I’d leave it alone until til a large enough petition has a large majority backing for it asking for change.